Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Arkay]

The show I’d like to see now, or a one-time special, would be the four sister victims and their husbands with some kind of panel discussion or something. Frank and candid talk about what Josh actually did to them and how they have coped. What they think should happen to Josh now and how maybe they can support Anna emotionally at least. 

I think those four husbands, Derrick, Jeremy, Ben and Austin should band together. Condemn Josh in no uncertain terms. Feel free to examine where JB & M dropped the ball. How they support their wives and guard their children. The different manner in which their children will be raised going forward.

I think Jill would be more candid now than when she had to act nonchalantly about being a victim. Maybe Jessa would, but she’s the least likely IMO.  I think Jinger would prefer to move forward but Jeremy would be able to convince her. Austin especially should because isn’t Joy the one who was only five when she was molested by her own big brother?

I also think JD and Joe are genuinely disgusted with Josh and have been for a long time. They are married fathers. Join in the discussion and be frank about when you learned about Josh when you were boys. Talk about your parents and how they mismanaged this whole tragedy.

I would include Jana. Maybe she would in fact pull back the curtain if she were surrounded by this group, and away from JB and Michelle. Move in maybe with one of her married siblings. 

 Shake out that rug and let the dirt out. Then vacuum it up after honest though painful revelations. 
 

Anna’s brother may have been sincere years ago in offering her a home with him.  It’s really a different ballgame with 6 traumatized children and a 7th on the way. Who has room or money for that? 

Jim Bob. Jim Bob OWES Anna and the little M kids. Whatever Anna chose to overlook in the past, those kids deserve better going  forward now. He should IMO install Anna and her kids in one of his nicest properties. Pay all the bills. Hire a woman to help her. Maybe Jana although I’d like her to have her own life by now. And never ever set foot in that house,  not JB nor Michelle. Just help Anna out and keep away. 

 

[MaryAnneSpier]

But with JB's money there are always strings. He won't just financially support Josh's kids and wife without having a lot of stipulations for Anna to follow to a tee. 

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, Arkay said:

The show I’d like to see now, or a one-time special, would be the four sister victims and their husbands with some kind of panel discussion or something. Frank and candid talk about what Josh actually did to them and how they have coped. What they think should happen to Josh now and how maybe they can support Anna emotionally at least. 

I honestly don't think any of the Duggar kids should feel compelled to talk about what happened unless they actually want to. I suspect Josh being arrested and charged has retraumatized them--especially since the family party line was Josh was forgiven and that this forgiveness was merited because he had changed--and they have every right to go about their lives without having to comment on what happened to them or how they feel about it or how they feel about Josh and they also have every right to not be very inclined to be supportive of Anna right now since she has continued to support their abuser. 

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[Slakkie]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't think any of the Duggar kids should feel compelled to talk about what happened unless they actually want to. I suspect Josh being arrested and charged has retraumatized them--especially since the family party line was Josh was forgiven and that this forgiveness was merited because he had changed--and they have every right to go about their lives without having to comment on what happened to them or how they feel about it or how they feel about Josh and they also have every right to not be very inclined to be supportive of Anna right now since she has continued to support their abuser. 

 

Agreed.  They have been abused enough.  If we never hear another word from the girls I am fine.  They are victims and their pain is not for our entertainment.  I hope the ones who have not sought help do and I hope the rest of the family gets away from Josh and the enablers.

[WinnieWinkle]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

I honestly don't think any of the Duggar kids should feel compelled to talk about what happened unless they actually want to.

I don't think Arkay was saying this conversation should be forced - just it would be nice to see - for me mainly because it would show that the girls are finally distancing themselves from the cult.  A girl can dream - we all know though this is very unlikely to happen, certainly for most of them anyway.  

I'd like to feel that this latest scandal is the straw that broke the cult's spell once and for all.  But it's not, and it won't.

[Arkay]

@zella @maryannespier

I agree with both of your comments on my post. Let me amend to say that I wish for that show ONLY if the participants are willing and feel it would enable them to heal. That is what I meant but perhaps I wasn’t clear. And that JB is forbidden to attach any strings to Anna. Whatever Anna chose to ignore before, who knows her reasons, but this is way beyond and the marriage must be severed. The New Testament  allows for divorce in cases of adultery which Josh committed along with these unspeakable crimes. She wouldn’t be allowed to remarry, not Biblically, but he adds nothing to the marriage except agony and betrayal. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Arkay

[anyasmom]

The only show I really would want to see is maybe an update episode 5-10 years from now.  But only if some of the kids have made major changes and are living healthy, mainstream lives.  If they are still doing the same old things (more babies, no jobs or education) I wouldn't be interested.   I want to be proud of them if they can show me progress.  There's no way Jill will be the only one to "break free".

[BigBingerBro]

I think Anna and the kids would be much better off with her family in Florida, but then they really do not have the room.   Assuming Nathan and Nurie are living in a mobile home on the property, thaey would need another structure at least.  I just can't help thinking Anna getting away from the Duggars is the best solution.  

[Oldernowiser]

17 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I think those four husbands, Derrick, Jeremy, Ben and Austin should band together. Condemn Josh in no uncertain terms. Feel free to examine where JB & M dropped the ball. How they support their wives and guard their children. The different manner in which their children will be raised going forward.

Not going to happen. Too many of these Duggar offspring owe their livelihoods to JimBob and TLC. Derrick would probably be happy to blow the whole thing up, but Ben is owned by JimBob, Austin wouldn’t want to make the heathens happy, and Jeremy is in deep with yet another super-Christian cult and is in no position to make waves.

I agree that the victims shouldn’t have to once again be trotted out to relive their abuse publicly. I remain convinced that they were forced to last time just to save the TLC contract. And with the possible exception of Jill, who has gotten therapeutic help, none of the others is equipped to discuss this intellectually, emotionally or spiritually. 

It’s a nice idea that there could be some kind of generational solidarity in repudiating their upbringing and brainwashing, but I don’t see it happening. They’re too dependent on the brand and on their parents.

[Arkay]

1 minute ago, WinnieWinkle said:

11 minutes ago, Zella said:

 

I don't think Arkay was saying this conversation should be forced - just it would be nice to see - for me mainly because it would show that the girls are finally distancing themselves from the cult.  A girl can dream - we all know though this is very unlikely to happen, certainly for most of them anyway.  

Yes, thank you. Of course I didn’t mean compelled and I didn’t think it would be interpreted that way. My thought is that IF  IT WOULD HELP the sisters who were victimized. I don’t want them to have to suffer this retriggering helplessly. They are adults now with husbands who are on their side, to give them support, and now that they have daughters they see things through a different lens than when they were helpless children.

[riverblue22]

Even in this cult, I don't see how Anna could have been responsible for what Josh did at work.  She was raising a bunch of kids and couldn't be there to monitor his actions at work.  Let's throw some blame at Jim Bob.  He could have monitored/limited computer access at the car lot--he could have even monitored Josh's phone.  He instead gave Josh a perfect opportunity to do what he wanted and I'm sure he was alone often are the car lot. 

As far as "the other guy did it" defense--wouldn't that be pointing at one of his brothers or another fundie from the cult?  Can't see how that will work.  However, I'm pretty sure Josh thinks he's got some successful defense up his sleeve.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Arkay said:

Yes, thank you. Of course I didn’t mean compelled and I didn’t think it would be interpreted that way. My thought is that IF  IT WOULD HELP the sisters who were victimized. I don’t want them to have to suffer this retriggering helplessly. They are adults now with husbands who are on their side, to give them support, and now that they have daughters they see things through a different lens than when they were helpless children.

Yeah I didn't think you meant any harm by it, but as someone who was also molested as a child, I just felt compelled to point out that they absolutely should not feel obligated to do any of that, especially since their parents already trotted some of them out for a highly scripted explanation a few years ago and several of the siblings have talked about how traumatizing it was then to have that splashed all over the news. 

I also just feel like in general a huge part of the damage the Duggars have done to their kids is throwing them on TV and giving them no sense of privacy, so I think it would be much healthier for all of them to step back from that, not just regarding this but just in general. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[BigBingerBro]

2 minutes ago, riverblue22 said:

As far as "the other guy did it" defense--wouldn't that be pointing at one of his brothers or another fundie from the cult?  Can't see how that will work.  However, I'm pretty sure Josh thinks he's got some successful defense up his sleeve.

I keep thinking I had heard about some other guy working at the car lot along with the Duggar brothers.  maybe I am completely wrong...  anyone else recall?

[Arkay]

Just now, Zella said:

Yeah I didn't think you meant any harm by it, but as someone who was also molested as a child, I just felt compelled to point out that they absolutely should not feel obligated to do any of that, especially since their parents already trotted some of them out for a highly scripted explanation a few years ago and several of the siblings have talked about how traumatizing it was then to have that splashed all over the news. 

I’m so sorry for how you suffered and your perspective is so valid. I was thinking in terms of them being able to speak freely, casting off the shackles of that secondary abuse by making them exonerate Josh. If they think it would be helpful, for those who wish it, I was thinking in terms of letting them take control back. 

[Zella]

Just now, Arkay said:

I’m so sorry for how you suffered and your perspective is so valid. I was thinking in terms of them being able to speak freely, casting off the shackles of that secondary abuse by making them exonerate Josh. If they think it would be helpful, for those who wish it, I was thinking in terms of letting them take control back. 

Thank you. Some of them may very well find it empowering, and if so, I definitely wouldn't object to that. I just admit to being deeply suspicious that anything they said would be ultimately orchestrated by their parents, especially since last time the result of an interview was them claiming this was very normal in families and that what Josh did wasn't actually that bad.

Though maybe this is the incentive some of them needed to break away. 

[doodlebug]

15 minutes ago, riverblue22 said:

Even in this cult, I don't see how Anna could have been responsible for what Josh did at work.  She was raising a bunch of kids and couldn't be there to monitor his actions at work.  Let's throw some blame at Jim Bob.  He could have monitored/limited computer access at the car lot--he could have even monitored Josh's phone.  He instead gave Josh a perfect opportunity to do what he wanted and I'm sure he was alone often are the car lot. 

As far as "the other guy did it" defense--wouldn't that be pointing at one of his brothers or another fundie from the cult?  Can't see how that will work.  However, I'm pretty sure Josh thinks he's got some successful defense up his sleeve.

This particular cult is based upon the notion that, while men are the only true leaders and decision makers, it is the woman's fault if her man should stray.  The Gothard teaching is that when someone is assaulted sexually, even a child, that person needs to own up to their responsibility for their own victimization. Even a child would be at fault for 'tempting' the adult man into sinning.  And, when husbands  commit sexual sins, it is because his wife is not fulfilling his sexual needs within the marriage.  So, he strays because she is a bad wife, not because of any inherent flaw he possesses.  It is likely that JB and Michelle are telling Anna that Josh' crimes are her fault, too and that Anna feels guilty and that she thinks that, if she had done something differently, Josh wouldn't have been interested in downloading photos of abused children.

The Gothardites also believe that even very young children, like pre-verbal, are capable of willful sinning and they do not distinguish between viewing salacious images of adults vs images of sexually abused children as far as the seriousness of the sin.  Even if the adult posing for pornographic images is doing so freely and is compensated and the child has no choice and is actually harmed emotionally and physically, those following Gothard seem to feel it is all the same.

It is, of course, all bullsh**, but it is what they believe.

Edited May 1, 2021 by doodlebug

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Oldernowiser said:

My mother was a prosecuting attorney for a county in Michigan and she had some stories. My concern is that Josh is going to plea out to a much lesser charge (especially since officially this is a first offense) and some uber-Christian judge is going to decide that since Anna has six kids and a seventh on the way, the husband/father needs to be dealt with lightly because he’s needed to support the family (ha). So they’ll slap his wrist, tell him to pray more, and dole out some bullshit community service sentence that JB will magically figure out a way for Josh to serve while working for him. Then Josh’s official address will be some house JB owns but he’ll be back home with Anna on day two. The Good Old Boys’ network will come through again, just like the last time.

I would be shocked if Josh serves time for this. My sad guess is his life will resume as normal in, oh, four or five months, if it takes that long.

Federal Sentencing Guidelines.  The judges can't just give him a slap on the wrist.  If they are following the rules completely, and there are images that contain enhancements (I won't list what they are because I don't want y'all having nightmares) then that means more time.  The judges do not have a lot of leeway in Federal court.  In state courts, that might be a different matter.  In my home state of KY, where I worked with the State police before taking my federal job, I rarely got a sentence of more than 5 years, no matter how many images or what the circumstances were.  In federal court, I normally got sentences of 10 years to 15 years, though my highest sentence was 30 years.

[Arkay]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

Thank you. Some of them may very well find it empowering, and if so, I definitely wouldn't object to that. I just admit to being deeply suspicious that anything they said would be ultimately orchestrated by their parents, especially since last time the result of an interview was them claiming this was very normal in families and that what Josh did wasn't actually that bad.

Though maybe this is the incentive some of them needed to break away. 

That was exactly my thought. The Duggars 2021 version—no more Daddy orchestrating their lives and marionetting their words. They’re going to be brought up in the news constantly now and I hoped they could be free to speak out in whatever way they wish now. Find solidarity with each other with fresh eyes. 

[Oldernowiser]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

Federal Sentencing Guidelines.  The judges can't just give him a slap on the wrist.  If they are following the rules completely, and there are images that contain enhancements (I won't list what they are because I don't want y'all having nightmares) then that means more time.  The judges do not have a lot of leeway in Federal court.  In state courts, that might be a different matter.  In my home state of KY, where I worked with the State police before taking my federal job, I rarely got a sentence of more than 5 years, no matter how many images or what the circumstances were.  In federal court, I normally got sentences of 10 years to 15 years, though my highest sentence was 30 years.

Thanks for this post. It’s nice to hear that justice may be served here…Josh just looked so damned cocky in that mug shot that my cynical mind immediately leaped to, “he thinks JB is going to pull the strings again.”

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Arkay said:

That was exactly my thought. The Duggars 2021 version—no more Daddy orchestrating their lives and marionetting their words. They’re going to be brought up in the news constantly now and I hoped they could be free to speak out in whatever way they wish now. Find solidarity with each other with fresh eyes. 

I really do hope the silver lining of all this horror is that all or many of them do breaking off. I also really hope they stop posting pictures of their kids online! 

Just now, Oldernowiser said:

Thanks for this post. It’s nice to hear that justice may be served here…Josh just looked so damned cocky in that mug shot that my cynical mind immediately leaped to, “he thinks JB is going to pull the strings again.”

I can totally see Josh failing to appreciate what a world of shit he is in. 

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

The feds basically have a 96% conviction rate. I don't think the fancy lawyer is going to do him all that much good. 

I'll give you all a preview of the "fancy lawyer's" defense: 

1) he didn't do it, someone else accessed the computer and the prosecution has failed to put him behind the computer.

2) There was a virus on the computer that contained child porn.  

3) He clicked on a link and the images just appeared. 

4) He was looking at adult porn and those images just showed up.

5) He was illegally downloading music and he downloaded a file that was titled "Britney Spears, hot" and it was a video containing CP (actually had this one happen in a case where I was the expert witness).

6) He bought the computer used, and the CP came from the original owner.

7) Josh wasn't looking at the CP, but his son was, and since it's age appropriate, it's not a crime.

 

You get the gist.  There are very few real defenses and we've seen nearly all of the excuses before.  The Feds aren't playing.  When they realized they had Josh Duggar, they scrupulously went over the evidence and made sure they had everything perfect.

Edited May 1, 2021 by hathorlive
I can't type

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I'll give you all a preview of the "fancy lawyer's" defense: 

1) he didn't do it, someone else accessed the computer and the prosecution has failed to put him behind the computer.

2) There was a virus on the computer that contained child porn.  

3) He clicked on a link and the images just appeared. 

4) He was looking at adult porn and those images just showed up.

5) He was illegally downloading music and he downloaded a file that titled "Britney Spears, hot" and it was a video containing CP (actually had this one happen in a case where I was the expert witness).

6) He bought the computer used, and the CP came from the original owner.

7) Josh wasn't looking at the CP, but his son was, and since it's age appropriate, it's not a crime.

 

You get the gist.  There are very few real defenses and we've seen nearly all of the excuses before.  The Feds aren't playing.  When they realized they had Josh Duggar, they scrupulously went over the evidence and made sure they had everything perfect.

I'm really curious if between now and this summer when the trial is scheduled, Josh and his attorneys have a come-to-Jesus talk and he ends up changing his plea to guilty. 

[Oldernowiser]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Josh wasn't looking at the CP, but his son was, and since it's age appropriate, it's not a crime.

 

Holy shit, this is a defense a parent would be okay with? Marcus is what, seven? That is a seriously disgusting tactic. Wow.

[beckie]

3 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Turning yourself in means showing up at the police ( or whatever local authority ) booking location etc.  US Marshals don’t need to be involved for that.  marshals come get you or escort you between locales. 

I know the difference between the two. I was just trying to figure out which story was correct, that he was arrested by the Marshall's or turned himself in. 

[hathorlive]

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm really curious if between now and this summer when the trial is scheduled, Josh and his attorneys have a come-to-Jesus talk and he ends up changing his plea to guilty. 

That's what we always hope for!  No one likes to testify.  I think with Josh, you have a narcissist who is never wrong, and has never taken responsibility for anything in his life.  I really don't think he realizes how bad this is.  If he pleads, then the family looks bad.  If they take it to court, the world will know, in great detail, what a creep he is.  It's a no win situation for the MOTY and JB.  If he is placed on the sex offender's list, then that adds a layer of other issues with Duggar family events.

It's interesting that they added the part about a child under 12.  It's part of the process for ICAC (Internet Crimes against Children) taskforces to send all suspected images of CP to NCMEC(National Center for Missing and Exploited Children) to be verified and documented. Most of the times when I find CP, I always states "images of suspected child pornography" unless NCMEC has verified them.  That they are willing to flat out state the age range of the child, tells me he has known series of CP on the computer.  

What the charges do tell us is that they he's not charged with distribution or production, which is where you get the heaviest sentences. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

That's what we always hope for!  No one likes to testify.  I think with Josh, you have a narcissist who is never wrong, and has never taken responsibility for anything in his life.  I really don't think he realizes how bad this is.  If he pleads, then the family looks bad.  If they take it to court, the world will know, in great detail, what a creep he is.  It's a no win situation for the MOTY and JB.  If he is placed on the sex offender's list, then that adds a layer of other issues with Duggar family events.

It's interesting that they added the part about a child under 12.  It's part of the process for ICAC (Internet Crimes against Children) taskforces to send all suspected images of CP to NCMEC(National Center for Missing and Exploited Children) to be verified and documented. Most of the times when I find CP, I always states "images of suspected child pornography" unless NCMEC has verified them.  That they are willing to flat out state the age range of the child, tells me he has known series of CP on the computer.  

What the charges do tell us is that they he's not charged with distribution or production, which is where you get the heaviest sentences. 

Thank you so much! I've really appreciated the insight you, @cereality, and @Jeeves (and some others I may be blanking on) bring on the legal system. 

[hathorlive]

11 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Holy shit, this is a defense a parent would be okay with? Marcus is what, seven? That is a seriously disgusting tactic. Wow.

You would be surprised what desperate people throw out in dark times.  I've seen a guy convicted of CP and on the sex offenders list living with a woman and her two small kids.  Okay, that's enough to violate parole and get him back in jail.  But when we came knocking on his door with a warrant, and I found the chats where he was trading CP, discussing he lost his CP stash when he went to prison for CP, he claimed it was the 5 year old boy and his mother looking at the stuff.  You can't make this up.  The mother, btw, had no idea he was a convicted sex offender, worked two jobs and was going to junior college.  All during the times the CP was being downloaded. 

[3 is enough]

Gotta wonder what is going through Josh’s head right now.  My guess is he thinks he will get off easily.  Hopefully he will be in for a rude awakening.  Not sure how the coddled golden boy will handle that.

Also wondering about Anna.  While I would like to think she is regretting staying 6 years ago, sadly, it is much more likely that she is wondering why God is punishing her even though she did all the right things.  I’m afraid the brainwashing runs that deep.

Edited May 1, 2021 by 3 is enough

[hathorlive]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Thank you so much! I've really appreciated the insight you, @cereality, and @Jeeves (and some others I may be blanking on) bring on the legal system. 

I'm glad my 17 years of experience looking at this filth have given some insight into the process.  Most people do not want me talking about my job.  It triggers my friends who are survivors and most people can't relate.  My sister was a social worker and she always said she knows what I'm dealing with.  But she just hears about the abuse. I get to watch it in HD and with sound. I do more fraud cases at the federal level but I still have to talk to a shrink every two years because of the images we see.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Fosca said:

This might have worked before, but I don't know if it will in the future; Josh is now permanently labelled as someone who downloaded and possessed pictures of children under 12 being sexually abused, and I think that may enter the minds of many/most people when they see pictures of baby/toddler Duggars.  

While I think you're right, I also don't think that's going to stop several Duggarlings from trying to rehabilitate their image with cute baby/toddler pictures.

 

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'm really curious if between now and this summer when the trial is scheduled, Josh and his attorneys have a come-to-Jesus talk and he ends up changing his plea to guilty. 

My guess is that conversation is already happening. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I'm glad my 17 years of experience looking at this filth have given some insight into the process.  Most people do not want me talking about my job.  It triggers my friends who are survivors and most people can't relate.  My sister was a social worker and she always said she knows what I'm dealing with.  But she just hears about the abuse. I get to watch it in HD and with sound. I do more fraud cases at the federal level but I still have to talk to a shrink every two years because of the images we see.

I can only imagine. I read a lot of true crime and consider myself hard to rattle when it comes to, say, murder, but I usually nope out of cases as soon as I realize they have a CP element, and the one time I did read any court documents from a case about it, I was sick at my stomach for a few days. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Zella

[hathorlive]

5 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Gotta wonder what is going through Josh’s head right now.  My guess is he thinks he will get off easily.  Hopefully he will be in for a rude awakening.  Not sure how the coddled golden boy will handle that.

Also wondering about Anna.  While I would like to think she is regretting staying 6 years ago, sadly, it it much more likely that she is wondering why God is punishing her even though she did all the right things.  I’m afraid the brainwashing runs that deep.

All Anna is thinking is that she's lucky she managed to get pregnant between the raid and perp walk.  And thinking if he gets out in two years, she won't miss a beat in the baby race.

Once Josh realizes what he's in for, I wonder if he'll self harm.  This may very well be the first time in his life where he has to face the consequences.  He's not a strong person and given how he has been coddled by his parents, it's going to be a rough ride.

[madpsych78]

10 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

What the charges do tell us is that they he's not charged with distribution or production, which is where you get the heaviest sentences. 

Well, given that there are two counts with a possible 20 years per count, we're looking at possibly 40 years for him in prison. I suppose that could be reduced for good behavior and maybe some other things. But as this was said, this was federal, so chances are there is a good case against him. I don't think he's only going to be spending a couple of years in prison.

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I can only imagine. I read a lot of true crime and consider myself hard to rattle, but I usually nope out of cases as soon as I realize they have a CP element, and the one time I did read any court documents from a case about it, I was sick at my stomach for a few days. 

****possible trigger warning****

I worked for 8 years with a coworker who was a state trooper.  We would eat lunch and go through these videos.  We were that jaded and nothing really phased us.  However, when I was going through what I think is the worst case I ever had (one where the images were broken down into folders labeled "young" "very young" and "tiny")  he leaned over to my desk and said "for the love of god, turn off the audio, I can't listen to another second of it".  You have to be driven by social justice to stick around in the field.  I was told early on, don't get upset, put people in jail.  And it's a motto to live by.  

[heckkitty]

27 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

sort an aside here - the property address on graham rd shown on josh's arrest has an interesting sales history.

bought in 2016 by JB's living trust LLc - sold to Jb's Warehouse Space llc in 2019, sold to Anna's SOLI DEO GLORIA LLC, then sold back to the Duggar trust, who sold it back to the Warehouse Space llc who sold it back to Anna's trust all within a few weeks. It was sold in july 2020 to someone not a duggar. JB trust paid $359,000 in 2016 as the sales went on the price got lower, Anna's llc sold it for $159,000.

also hard to get info on the other llc that is on with anna for her llcs - western ridge financial llc sheridan wyoming. it is under Registered Agents Inc. oddly the same co Dwain Swanson has his Swanson Properties llc registered under in AR

 

I can't even keep track of this, but it feels like some money laundering nonsense to me (I watch Ozark).

Edited May 1, 2021 by heckkitty

[WinnieWinkle]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

You have to be driven by social justice to stick around in the field.  I was told early on, don't get upset, put people in jail.  And it's a motto to live by.  

Is there any common denominator that you see where these people are concerned?  I know we're all  talking about Josh Duggar here, and about fundies by extension - is having that background more likely to show up when you're dealing with CP or in child abuse cases in general?  

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Well, given that there are two counts with a possible 20 years per count, we're looking at possibly 40 years for him in prison. I suppose that could be reduced for good behavior and maybe some other things. But as this was said, this was federal, so chances are there is a good case against him. I don't think he's only going to be spending a couple of years in prison.

I've never seen a case where they were found guilty on both counts and given two 20 year sentences consecutively.  Usually, they run both concurrently, so they only serve 20 years or 85% of time sentenced. Feds don't tend to give good behavior off.  I think we'll be lucky to get 10 years, based on my experience, with the notation that I'm not from Arkansas but my sister is (woo pig sooie).  The big unknown is if they'll consider the sexual abuse of his sisters.  Even if it's not allowed in court, the jury will know what he's already done.

[BitterApple]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

 

Once Josh realizes what he's in for, I wonder if he'll self harm.  This may very well be the first time in his life where he has to face the consequences.  He's not a strong person and given how he has been coddled by his parents, it's going to be a rough ride.

I was thinking the same. It wouldn't surprise me if Josh offs himself once reality sets in. I don't wish it on him, but he doesn't have the strength or wits to survive prison. 

[3girlsforus]

1 minute ago, madpsych78 said:

Well, given that there are two counts with a possible 20 years per count, we're looking at possibly 40 years for him in prison. I suppose that could be reduced for good behavior and maybe some other things. But as this was said, this was federal, so chances are there is a good case against him. I don't think he's only going to be spending a couple of years in prison.

I'm hardly an expert, I'm sure @hathorlive can give us more specifics, but when I did some looking, it appears that under federal laws what they call "simple possession" is up to 10 years but does not carry a minimum. However, "receipt" which I am taking to mean his charge of receiving CP, does carry a minimum of 5 years with a max of 20. In addition, Federal sentencing guidelines provide for higher sentences for various reasons like the 12 years and under mentioned in his indictment. So it seems like the very minimum would be 5 years if they lumped both together, didn't put on an enhancement, and went with the minimum sentence for the receipt. But I would think with multiple charges and the 12 years and under enhancement it would be more. I wonder how long it will take Josh to realize his fancy pants lawyer will not view his job as getting Josh off but will look at it as a win if he gets Josh as close to 5-10 as possible. 

Caveat on all of this - I got this info from internet research so if it's not accurate - sorry. 

[hathorlive]

7 minutes ago, WinnieWinkle said:

Is there any common denominator that you see where these people are concerned?  I know we're all  talking about Josh Duggar here, and about fundies by extension - is having that background more likely to show up when you're dealing with CP or in child abuse cases in general?  

We always say the big red flags are band directors, sport coaches, and youth ministers.  That's a stereotype but there's some validity in it.  Any person in a field that works closely with kids and where there is a shared mentorship/friendship is common.  Perps get access to your kids by gaining your trust.  I've not noticed any trend involving religion per se, outside of the youth minister angle.  But that is more about the relationship than religion.  

One trend is very evident.  CP tends to be done exclusively by white males.  I'm not saying that there aren't minorities convicted.  But it's something like 85% white males.  That rate may have gone down a bit since I last check.  

Edited May 1, 2021 by hathorlive
hit 9 instead of 8

[crazycatlady58]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I've never seen a case where they were found guilty on both counts and given two 20 year sentences consecutively.  Usually, they run both concurrently, so they only serve 20 years or 85% of time sentenced. Feds don't tend to give good behavior off.  I think we'll be lucky to get 10 years, based on my experience, with the notation that I'm not from Arkansas but my sister is (woo pig sooie).  The big unknown is if they'll consider the sexual abuse of his sisters.  Even if it's not allowed in court, the jury will know what he's already done.

How will they get a fair trial? I would think they would have to move the trial somewhere way from that area because as you say a lot of people know about the past abuse.  I could not be on the jury because I could not be fair.

[Oldernowiser]

18 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I'm glad my 17 years of experience looking at this filth have given some insight into the process.  Most people do not want me talking about my job.  It triggers my friends who are survivors and most people can't relate.  My sister was a social worker and she always said she knows what I'm dealing with.  But she just hears about the abuse. I get to watch it in HD and with sound. I do more fraud cases at the federal level but I still have to talk to a shrink every two years because of the images we see.

Thank you for being willing and able to do this work when it’s so damned difficult and traumatic. If it weren’t for people like you, these terrible acts would continue without consequence, so it’s so necessary. Thank you, thank you.

[Soaper410]

3 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

How will they get a fair trial? I would think they would have to move the trial somewhere way from that area because as you say a lot of people know about the past abuse.  I could not be on the jury because I could not be fair.

Federal juries are INSANE compared to state.  Basically first 12 in the box.  Add a few alternatives and most federal judges ask 10-15 questions and that is it.  State court has the never ending jury questions, etc. 

Feds don't play.  

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

How will they get a fair trial? I would think they would have to move the trial somewhere way from that area because as you say a lot of people know about the past abuse.  I could not be on the jury because I could not be fair.

FWIW, I think we collectively as a board think way more about the Duggars and know way more about them than the average Arkansan. When I want to talk shit about the Duggars where I work at the library, the reaction tends to be "Oh aren't they the people with the big family?" (and sometimes it is tacked on "with the son who molested his sisters?"), but I have never met anyone else here who has, say, taken the time to read the police report or has a lot of knowledge about them or that case. (Compare this to us discussing, say, Tiger King at work or even Below Deck.) So, I don't think that would disqualify people from the jury. You'd definitely want to weed out people who actually know them, but again, I think the board sometimes tends to overestimate the prominence/visibility of the Duggars in this state. 

[hathorlive]

4 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

How will they get a fair trial? I would think they would have to move the trial somewhere way from that area because as you say a lot of people know about the past abuse.  I could not be on the jury because I could not be fair.

There will always be people who aren't paying attention.  Heck, I couldn't name a big movie star from the last 8 years to save my life.  So they will find some people who don't know the Duggars, others who say "that's the group with all the kids" and some one who will say "those crazy people with all the ankle bitters".  And that helps the lawyers know who to boot during voire dire. However, there will be some on the jury who know what he did to his sisters and it will come out in discussions if not in court. 

I could sit on the jury.  Even doing what I do, I could be impartial.  I would be a nightmare to the forensics report and evidence. But I could be impartial.  My room mate got called into a jury trial and asked to speak to the judge and flat out told him that should couldn't be impartial and could he move her to a juicy murder jury.  It's always good to be honest and let the officials know what you are thinking.  The AUSAs will know their audience and will find enough people to sit a jury.  Josh won't want the trial moved because he will feel that the people from his religious, conservative area will help him, not hurt him.

[GeeGolly]

Jessa using the word pornography stuck out to me. She used that word on purpose. She's protecting someone by using it, maybe herself, the Duggar image or Josh, or maybe all three.

The Vuolos used the term child abuse which certainly encompasses Josh's charges, but in a 'softer', less triggering way. I believe Jessa chose to say pornography because she does know the difference between that and CP.

Jessa may be experiencing a variation of survivor's guilt. She might be regretting her statements made during the Kelly interview. Jessa also knows the internet is forever (even an IG Story) and knows adult porn is considered acceptable by many. And Jessa certainly knows any kind of child abuse, including the Pearl Method, is unacceptable by the vast majority of folks.

Her (24 hour) statement has Jessa written all over it. If it was written that way due to guilt, then I cast no judgement.

Edited May 1, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Oldernowiser said:

 

It’s a nice idea that there could be some kind of generational solidarity in repudiating their upbringing and brainwashing, but I don’t see it happening. They’re too dependent on the brand and on their parents.

Plus, Gothard and JB and M have spent most of their adult lives trying to confuse the Duggarlings into accepting the dumb set of beliefs that they like because it gives them power over everybody.

So besides most of them being dependent on the brand to one degree or another, I expect they generally have absolutely no idea what they actually feel or think about this whole history and the people involved in it, and probably no idea how to even go about finding that out. I'm sure that's true of Joy, Jinger and Jessa, at least

They've been programmed in a very weird language that they've nevertheless been told is God's Super Truth. It's probably especially hard to work your way past those ideas when they're related to a series of more or less traumatizing events that you've probably coped with at least in part by repressing the hell out of your feelings about them and impressions of them. 

I expect that when it comes to really trying to confront these things in a raw and honest way, the Josh events of the past two decades are pretty much the third rail for all the kids.

JD can say out loud that he's angry about pornography and prostitutes. But that's easy to say since it's part of the kneejerk language they've all been taught. But when it comes to more subtle and complex matters-- let alone things that might even contradict some of what they've been taught-- I have a hard time seeing most -- or any -- of them really being able to talk about it much to each other. 

As Jinge said in her book (paraphrased, but I think probably fairly accurate to her meaning) -- I had a big family so I learned early never even to write down anything in my diary that touched on anything really emotional or deep or of actual importance. Keep it trivial and generally noncommittal so nobody can weaponize it in any way!.........I'd bet that the same applied and applies to most speech. 

And despite what Jinge said in the book about how "close" they became when they were all mad at the media and the local government for outing them, I continue to think that that was a pretty superficial closeness.

I think real solidarity in a case like this requires feeling free to express and discuss much deeper and more important and difficult things. I guess it's possible that they talk to each other in those terms when they aren't on tv or on social media -- and I hope they do. But until I see evidence of it, I'll have a hard time believing they enjoy much of that kind of freedom with each other.  

It's not that they couldn't ever get there. But I'd bet that at least most of them haven't yet even conceived of it as a valuable option at this point.

Maybe this mess'll push them to it. Hope it does. But I can most easily imagine JB and M and maybe even some siblings trying to drag everybody into the fold -- or at least divide and conquer them.....I'm sure JB and M will work pretty hard to do that. 

Having the TLC cash and related money sources dry up would drain some of the JB and M clout, though, I'd guess. 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Josh won't want the trial moved because he will feel that the people from his religious, conservative area will help him, not hurt him.

What is the general jury pool for a federal case? Because a big chunk of the NWA area is not really religious or conservative. 

[Tabbygirl521]

31 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

****possible trigger warning****

I worked for 8 years with a coworker who was a state trooper.  We would eat lunch and go through these videos.  We were that jaded and nothing really phased us.  However, when I was going through what I think is the worst case I ever had (one where the images were broken down into folders labeled "young" "very young" and "tiny")  he leaned over to my desk and said "for the love of god, turn off the audio, I can't listen to another second of it".  You have to be driven by social justice to stick around in the field.  I was told early on, don't get upset, put people in jail.  And it's a motto to live by.  

I’m so grateful for people like you, who have the strength to do this vital work. Thank you very much for sharing your insights here

[hathorlive]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

What is the general jury pool for a federal case? Because a big chunk of the NWA area is not really religious or conservative. 

Juries are usually pulled from voter roles in that district/region.  Most states have an Eastern and Western district where cases are heard.  I'm sure states like Texas have many more districts.  But these cases are heard in larger cities. I'm actually not sure if you go to a specific district based on county or not.   I realize that most of NWA isn't that conservative, but the Duggar's are doing the will of god and everyone supports them, right?