Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[farmgal4]

30 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Thank God we’ll be done with this woman, too.

Katie Joy (withoutacrystalball) isn’t going anywhere.

[BitterApple]

10 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

 

You also should add Bill Gothard to the list.

 

 

Duly noted and added!

[hathorlive]

4 hours ago, Madtown said:

Sexual abuse material on children under 12! What a fucking disgusting piece of shit! I hope he gets those max 20 years, he should get life for that!

I will NEVER feel sorry for Anna. CPS needs to take those kids, I don't care if it's allowed or not, they need to be elsewhere. Now she has another one on the way. UGH! I just can't! Fuck you too Jessa!

**************Possible trigger warning***********

I'm using very vague language but I don't want to upset anyone.

He's not going to get the max sentence.  I've testified on CP cases in federal court and they never the max sentence.  I need a lot more information about what they found.  He will have trouble using the "Soddi" defense (some other dude did it).  If it was a computer at the business that was shared, it helps a bit but timestamps and other activity don't lie.   I just hope everyone tempers their expectations.  I had a case a few years ago where I had over 5 GB of hard core, horrific CP.  And my criteria for bookmarking images was under the age of 8.  I stopped bookmarking because I was getting carpal tunnel from clicking the mouse.  The guy got like 15 years for hundreds of thousands of images.  The worse images I've ever seen in 17 years of doing this work.  And he only got that sentence because I included chats that disturbed the judge so much he threw in 5 extra years.  He had all the enhancers (images that are weighed more seriously) and that's all the time he got.  I'm waiting to see if anymore information comes out.  Depending on how he received the images, the lawyers have their work cut out for them. 

Sexual abuse was a sign he was a screwed up boy.  I'm not shocked to hear this.  I wonder if the court will consider he started with sexual abuse on actual victims and moved to online CP.  Usually, it's the other way around.  

[RedDelicious]

1 hour ago, WinnieWinkle said:

If this past year has taught me nothing else it has taught me that there really are some very stupid people out there who think they're smarter than everyone else.  I believe Josh Duggar is one of those people.  He acts like someone who genuinely thinks he's better than everyone else and that the entire world owes him a living.  

One. Hundred. Percent. (about Josh).

Edited April 30, 2021 by RedDelicious

[RedDelicious]

57 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Frequently they do use things such as password log-ins -- but of course that winds up being a dogfight about someone else being aware of the password, the computer being left on and someone else using it -- or things like a fight with a boyfriend/girlfriend and they have supposedly used the computer maliciously to set up their former partner, etc. 

Many times they prove who was operating the computer at certain times by linking it to other transactions conducted within close proximity of time before and after, all pointing to a consistent user. 

Agree - that's what I meant about GMail and being logged into Google.

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Tikichick said:

 

I'm very, very skeptical any miracles are on the horizon in this case that they have been probing for over a year.   Remember, all of the information didn't come from the raid -- somehow or another Josh made it onto the radar, triggering the warrant in the first place.  Seems he may not have gotten much more savvy or sophisticated about his online activities since his last, much more benign, go round.   

The raid most definitely was sparked by Josh's online activities.  ICAC taskforces have processes to track behavior and monitor things.  I'm trying to be super vague, but if he wasn't smart, didn't use a VPN, and did something online that was noticed, they can subpoena his IP address and go from there.  That's when you see a search warrant.  If the ICAC can show what he downloaded, via the HASH value, and that image shows up on his computer, then that's a pretty neat case.  Of course, where was the computer at? Work? Home? 

[mynextmistake]

8 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

**************Possible trigger warning***********

I'm using very vague language but I don't want to upset anyone.

He's not going to get the max sentence.  I've testified on CP cases in federal court and they never the max sentence.  I need a lot more information about what they found.  He will have trouble using the "Soddi" defense (some other dude did it).  If it was a computer at the business that was shared, it helps a bit but timestamps and other activity don't lie.   I just hope everyone tempers their expectations.  I had a case a few years ago where I had over 5 GB of hard core, horrific CP.  And my criteria for bookmarking images was under the age of 8.  I stopped bookmarking because I was getting carpal tunnel from clicking the mouse.  The guy got like 15 years for hundreds of thousands of images.  The worse images I've ever seen in 17 years of doing this work.  And he only got that sentence because I included chats that disturbed the judge so much he threw in 5 extra years.  He had all the enhancers (images that are weighed more seriously) and that's all the time he got.  I'm waiting to see if anymore information comes out.  Depending on how he received the images, the lawyers have their work cut out for them. 

Sexual abuse was a sign he was a screwed up boy.  I'm not shocked to hear this.  I wonder if the court will consider he started with sexual abuse on actual victims and moved to online CP.  Usually, it's the other way around.  

One of the very sad things about this is that if he had gotten real help when he molested his sisters, this all might have been avoided. I’m not even saying that JB and Michelle had to turn him into the police. But they could have enrolled him in a sex offender treatment program, or at the very least in real counseling with a licensed therapist. They could’ve told him that his behavior wasn’t OK, that it was within his control, and that victimizing other people is unacceptable. Instead, they swept everything under the rug, forced the girls to forgive him for the abuse, told him he wasn’t culpable because Satan had built a fortress in his heart, and sent him to help some guy finish his kitchen.

Anyone who is speculating that JB and Michelle, or Anna, or any of the other players in this sordid little tale are going to respond any differently this time then they have on all the previous occasions is, in my opinion, going to be disappointed. Their come to Jesus moment should’ve been when their teenage son molested their five year old daughter (or, in Anna‘s case, when she learned about said abuse). It didn’t happen then, it’s not going to happen now.

 

[Tabbygirl521]

18 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

**************Possible trigger warning***********

I'm using very vague language but I don't want to upset anyone.

He's not going to get the max sentence.  I've testified on CP cases in federal court and they never the max sentence.  I need a lot more information about what they found.  He will have trouble using the "Soddi" defense (some other dude did it).  If it was a computer at the business that was shared, it helps a bit but timestamps and other activity don't lie.   I just hope everyone tempers their expectations.  I had a case a few years ago where I had over 5 GB of hard core, horrific CP.  And my criteria for bookmarking images was under the age of 8.  I stopped bookmarking because I was getting carpal tunnel from clicking the mouse.  The guy got like 15 years for hundreds of thousands of images.  The worse images I've ever seen in 17 years of doing this work.  And he only got that sentence because I included chats that disturbed the judge so much he threw in 5 extra years.  He had all the enhancers (images that are weighed more seriously) and that's all the time he got.  I'm waiting to see if anymore information comes out.  Depending on how he received the images, the lawyers have their work cut out for them. 

Sexual abuse was a sign he was a screwed up boy.  I'm not shocked to hear this. I wonder if the court will consider he started with sexual abuse on actual victims and moved to online CP.  Usually, it's the other way around.  

Food for thought. 

[Lady Whistleup]

So I checked out Anna's family. She has two sisters who are divorced and do not seem to lead the fundie life. I hope the Kellers can support Anna if she decides to divorce Josh.

[Oldernowiser]

Josh has hit the big time...

CNN

[Guest]

As previously noted - do not speculate on the identity of any of Josh's potential victims.  

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So I checked out Anna's family. She has two sisters who are divorced and do not seem to lead the fundie life. I hope the Kellers can support Anna if she decides to divorce Josh.

I thought I heard that her family has always lived at basically a subsistence level?

She's got seven kids, no real education, no job experience and no training.   It's truly going to take a village.   I'm sure she'll be used as a cautionary tale in all the wrong ways in their community.   She really should be a cautionary tale to all these women birthing all these children with no way to support themselves and their children if their headship gets hit by a bus.

[RedDelicious]

I'm assuming it's back to the girls' dorm for Anna and the Ms. I wish they could all be taken into protective custody, including Anna, because the girls dorm is neither appropriate for a mother of seven, nor is it appropriate for her children for several legitimate reasons.

Edited April 30, 2021 by RedDelicious

[BitterApple]

I think Anna will stay put. She can squirrel herself away on the Duggar compound for the rest of her life if she so chooses. If she divorces Josh, she's on her own. She might have a little bit of money from whatever assets were put in her name, but she wouldn't be set for life. The only Keller sibling in the financial position to help is Rebekah, but that's a huge ask. Supporting or taking in a sister with two or three kids is doable, but seven? That's an entirely different ball of wax. 

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Josh has hit the big time...

CNN

"We intend to defend this case aggressively and thoroughly. In this country, no one can stop prosecutors from charging a crime. But when you're accused, you can fight back in the courtroom -- and that is exactly what Josh intends to do," Duggar's attorneys Justin Gelfand, Travis W. Story and Greg Payne said in an email to CNN Friday.

[Angeltoes]

Quote

And this is probably not a popular opinion: but if I were on a jury, I’d have a problem sentencing someone to jail for 20 years if they had 1-2 child photos thrown in with thousands of adults photos. 

We had a coworker who got arrested over two years ago (he was about 29) for ten counts of child porn.  His mother called our office that day and instead of saying that he'd no longer be coming to work and leaving it at that, she said he'd been arrested and why.  He's been cooling his heels in the clink ever since (nobody ponied up his bail) and got sentenced last week.  He had previously pled not guilty but he changed it to guilty on all ten counts so there was no jury trial.  He had a public defender which was interesting because he came from a well-off family.   We're guessing that Mommy and Daddy were pretty disgusted with him - and rightfully so (unlike Michelle and JB).  He got two years of prison time and three years of probation.  They gave him credit for the 600+ days he'd already served so he'll be out in a few months.  We think the sentence seems awfully light and we wonder if he rolled over on a bigger fish and the court cut him a deal for that.  We were all surprised when this first happened because it didn't seem like the guy we knew at all.  But you never really know anyone.

[emmawoodhouse]

8 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So I checked out Anna's family. She has two sisters who are divorced and do not seem to lead the fundie life. I hope the Kellers can support Anna if she decides to divorce Josh.

Susanna is not divorced. She broke off a couple of engagements, but her current husband is her first. Rebekah is divorced and remarried to the rich old guy who's even older than her parents.

[Liamsmom617]

39 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

Maybe the best thing for his children is just to have Josh stay in jail until the trial. That way they can stay in their home and continue to be with their primary parent, fucked up as she is.

The single greatest argument against leaving them with Anna is that she has consistently, publicly, and recently posted about how wonderful Josh is. It’s possible she actually believes that…denial is an amazing thing. She’s a poster child for Stockholm syndrome, if true. If he’s out on bail, that denial is definitely strong enough that she’ll ignore the mandate that he not be around minor children, because she would refuse to believe anything bad could happen. Hey, I’ve seen it before, and in my own family.

Leave him in custody, Duggars. Besides, you’ll probably lose your bail money anyway.

I would say keep him in custody and TF away from all children, ESPECIALLY his own, but to take the children away from Anna would be severely traumatizing to them. I believe she is a warm and very loving mother to them while being completely and stubbornly blind to the fact that Josh will never change. She truly thinks (or though until now) that God/Jesus cured Josh. I have nothing but pity for her. 

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I thought I heard that her family has always lived at basically a subsistence level?

She's got seven kids, no real education, no job experience and no training.   It's truly going to take a village.   I'm sure she'll be used as a cautionary tale in all the wrong ways in their community.   She really should be a cautionary tale to all these women birthing all these children with no way to support themselves and their children if their headship gets hit by a bus.

After the 2015 scandal, I remember reading that one of Anna's brothers offered to let her and the kids live with him, and was urging her to divorce Josh. 

[Lady Whistleup]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Susanna is not divorced. She broke off a couple of engagements, but her current husband is her first. Rebekah is divorced and remarried to the rich old guy who's even older than her parents.

Didn't Susanna have an out of wedlock child? She doesn't seem to lead a very fundie life.

[emmawoodhouse]

5 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I think Anna will stay put. She can squirrel herself away on the Duggar compound for the rest of her life if she so chooses. If she divorces Josh, she's on her own. She might have a little bit of money from whatever assets were put in her name, but she wouldn't be set for life. The only Keller sibling in the financial position to help is Rebekah, but that's a huge ask. Supporting or taking in a sister with two or three kids is doable, but seven? That's an entirely different ball of wax. 

I agree. Anna is a weak reed. She's not going anywhere. She'll stupidly stand by her man and be there when he's released from prison.

2 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Didn't Susanna have an out of wedlock child? She doesn't seem to lead a very fundie life.

Yes, Noelle was born out of wedlock. That was one of her broken engagements.

[Churchhoney]

30 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

 

Anyone who is speculating that JB and Michelle, or Anna, or any of the other players in this sordid little tale are going to respond any differently this time then they have on all the previous occasions is, in my opinion, going to be disappoi, dnted. Their come to Jesus moment should’ve been when their teenage son molested their five year old daughter (or, in Anna‘s case, when she learned about said abuse). It didn’t happen then, it’s not going to happen now.

 

This is the worst of the tragedy, I think.

There was so much for the Duggars, Anna, Anna's parents and others involved to learn from the things they all did wrong and misunderstood about Josh, the girls, molestation, sexuality, the way their religion and the Gothard cult view first-born boys of the patriarchy and how toxic that can be when that glorifying treatment is given to kids with certain natural characteristics....etc. etc etc. ....

But it's been pretty damn clear forever that they've all chosen to learn nothing. And, worse, to browbeat other people into buying the dangerous ignorance they put out there. JB, M and Anna have all made quite clear that they've refused to learn anything or even consider changing any of their ways, despite the numerous times and numerous ways in which this mess has come home to roost. And we hear the same messed-up beliefs as ever coming through in what most of the other Duggarlings say as well. 

If they didn't learn from  the past couple decades of their mistakes, they won't learn. They won't reconsider. They persist in believing that all their ways are right. And that's only gone on to expose more people to trouble....and it'll go right on doing that. 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Tikichick]

5 minutes ago, Liamsmom617 said:

I would say keep him in custody and TF away from all children, ESPECIALLY his own, but to take the children away from Anna would be severely traumatizing to them. I believe she is a warm and very loving mother to them while being completely and stubbornly blind to the fact that Josh will never change. She truly thinks (or though until now) that God/Jesus cured Josh. I have nothing but pity for her. 

After the 2015 scandal, I remember reading that one of Anna's brothers offered to let her and the kids live with him, and was urging her to divorce Josh. 

I agree.   I genuinely don't believe Anna knows any better to be able to do any better.

As far as her brother making that offer, those are words, not a guarantee, I can't say if he would follow through -- or for how long he would have been willing to live up to his offer.   Now we're six years later and several more children are part of the package, with another on the way.   Raising a lot of kids is a financial backbreaker for even a lot of educated, well earning, two income families.   It's not like Anna is going to need six months to get her affairs in order to be ready to support and care for herself and her children on her own.   I feel like she'd be hard pressed to be ready to get the job done on her own five years from now.

It's just occurred to me that it's not out of the realm of possibility that Anna gets a visit, or two, from CPS to investigate whether or not the children are being medically or educationally neglected.    

[BigBingerBro]

Considering how sheltered they all are, I really wonder how many of them even knew that child porn even existed?   I am just imagining Jeremy Vuolo explaining it to Jinger.

[Bayarea4]

So much for the theory that the answer to all of Josh's problems was to marry him off so he would have a regular sex partner.

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, cereality said:

@Tdoc72 so yeah in federal cases, the issue of how many images does come up in these cases. There isn't like a threshold number or %. But generally speaking people don't get indicted if they have 1000s of adult porn images and 2 or even 10 child porn mixed in because it assumed that they didn't know what they were downloading.

For this case though remember they had to go to a grand jury first -- so in order to even get to the point there there's an indictment and an arrest, prosecutors had to go before a grand jury and prove to that jury that there's probable cause that a crime has been committed. If the grand jury didn't agree because there were 1-2 videos or whatever, we wouldn't even be at this stage.

Plus I have to assume surveillance has gotten really good as tech has good really good. If someone downloaded an accidental 10 files amongst 1000s of other downloads, surveillance can likely tell if they skipped over those images in 2 seconds or hit delete as soon as they opened them; or if they spent hours on those images.

Again not my area of practice but these cases come up a lot in fed court sadly.

This is assuming that there aren't also searches for CP buzzwords, that no normal human would know, outside of pedophile rings.  Or that he's not using filesharing software that shows his searches and downloads.  There are lots of ways to forensically show intent. Feds are usually concerned with receipt, possession and distribution.

[cmr2014]

47 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

This is the worst of the tragedy, I think.

There was so much for the Duggars, Anna, Anna's parents and others involved to learn from the things they all did wrong and misunderstood about Josh, the girls, molestation, sexuality, the way their religion and the Gothard cult view first-born boys of the patriarchy and how toxic that can be when that glorifying treatment is given to kids with certain natural characteristics....etc. etc etc. ....

But it's been pretty damn clear forever that they've all chosen to learn nothing. And, worse, to browbeat other people into buying the dangerous ignorance they put out there. JB, M and Anna have all made quite clear that they've refused to learn anything or even consider changing any of their ways, despite the numerous times and numerous ways in which this mess has come home to roost. And we hear the same messed-up beliefs as ever coming through in what most of the other Duggarlings say as well. 

If they didn't learn from  the past couple decades of their mistakes, they won't learn. They won't reconsider. They persist in believing that all their ways are right. And that's only gone on to expose more people to trouble....and it'll go right on doing that. 

 

The only tool in their arsenal is Jesus. If that doesn't work, the only option is "more Jesus."

I don't think any of them see any options in this situation other than what they have already done. None of them are open to learning anything, because they don't believe there is anything more to learn.

[LexieLily]

43 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Considering how sheltered they all are, I really wonder how many of them even knew that child porn even existed?   I am just imagining Jeremy Vuolo explaining it to Jinger.

I don't know how many of the siblings talk to Jill these days but I wish Jill's therapist would offer up a referral of services to all of Jill's siblings.

Edited April 30, 2021 by LexieLily

[lascuba]

 

 

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

The raid most definitely was sparked by Josh's online activities.  ICAC taskforces have processes to track behavior and monitor things.  I'm trying to be super vague, but if he wasn't smart, didn't use a VPN, and did something online that was noticed, they can subpoena his IP address and go from there.  That's when you see a search warrant.  If the ICAC can show what he downloaded, via the HASH value, and that image shows up on his computer, then that's a pretty neat case.  Of course, where was the computer at? Work? Home? 

I was just coming here to ask about this, because I was wondering what the likelihood was of the raid being about the cp versus something else and they came across it during the investigation. Thank you for your informative posts.

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Annb67 said:

From my understanding you cannot “accidentally” download underage abuse pictures. You have to go to the dark web; and it isn’t an oops. 

I've seen many CP images on mainstream porn sites.  There are some very developed 14 year olds that blend in with the rest.  There are many places on the web to get it, mostly in paid forums.  It's not only on the dark web.

[lascuba]

8 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Considering how sheltered they all are, I really wonder how many of them even knew that child porn even existed?  

They knew. They're obsessed with the fact that porn exists and they know about child sexual abuse. The problem with the lot of them is that their belief system states that all sexual "sin" is created equal, so they don't see cp as any worse than adult porn.

[Gigi43]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

"We intend to defend this case aggressively and thoroughly. In this country, no one can stop prosecutors from charging a crime. But when you're accused, you can fight back in the courtroom -- and that is exactly what Josh intends to do," Duggar's attorneys Justin Gelfand, Travis W. Story and Greg Payne said in an email to CNN Friday.

 

Good luck with that. IDK why but reading that made me think of when OJ said he was still looking to find Nicole's killer.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Gigi43

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah I definitely think the atmosphere in the house was conducive to issues, but I am hesitant to make any assumptions about Josh himself since not all abusers were abused as children (though of course many are), and I think that narrative can unfairly stigmatize abuse victims who have never harmed another person. (Not saying that is what you're saying, but as someone who was molested as a child, that's something I do like to just note when it comes up just so folks are aware it doesn't automatically set someone up for a life of abusing others.)

That being said, the assertions the Duggars have made in the past about Josh's behavior being normal makes me really wonder what the fuck is going on in the homes of the people they do associate with. 

Various things can turn somebody to abuse.\it seems. Some are abused,. And another thing besides an unhealthy mix of sexualizing and repressing sex that certainly has turned a lot of rich and powerful guys into sexual abusers -- even as young kids -- is being set up by their parents as little potentates. I'm powerful, so I'm raping the maid or my little cousin, even though I'm only 12.

That's been not at all uncommon in the homes of the rich and powerful through the ages, as I understand it.

And I expect it's often at work in the molesters-in-every-Gothard-family. When you think of the first-born males in that group, there's a lot of stuff drummed into them that could be quite dangerous with boys of a certain temperament.

The power that many of those males are told they have, combined with the doubts about their real power in the world that may also feel in that isolating cult, is probably another dangerous mix, I would think.

Josh, in Gothard world both a revered leader-of-our-home first-born son in the patriarchy and the apple of Mom and Dad's eye, was definitely in that basket.

He came off dripping that arrogance. But at the same time, I think he was probably somewhat unsure of himself in world terms, since like the others he was somewhat isolated in their smallish group.

So combining your sense of entitlement with your desire to feel more like a big powerful guy when you really feel a little weak might well lead to taking out some aggressions by attacking little easy marks Jinger and Joy (of whom you're the leader -- so they've gotta do what you say), whom he could overpower with ease and feel that rapists' pleasure in power that's so common. 

Being able to act out sexual desires on other people with impunity is an expression of power every bit as much as it is an expression of sexual desire. Very often -- if not usually -- more so, as far as I can tell. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Trillium]

5 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I've seen many CP images on mainstream porn sites.  There are some very developed 14 year olds that blend in with the rest.  There are many places on the web to get it, mostly in paid forums.  It's not only on the dark web.

The charges are for a child under 12, not a teen that maybe in some context could be mistaken for an adult. That type you’re not going to accidentally stumble across.

[Temperance]

For people who didn't read the charges. 

He's been charged with 

a)receiving child pornographic images.

b) being in possession of child pornographic images. 

Notice it does not state how many images are involved. Each image is not a separate count. It could be 2 images or 1, 000 images, etc. 

Just now, Trillium said:

The charges are for a child under 12, not a teen that maybe in some context could be mistaken for an adult. That type you’re not going to accidentally stumble across.

What Trillium said.

[Churchhoney]

9 minutes ago, lascuba said:

They knew. They're obsessed with the fact that porn exists and they know about child sexual abuse. The problem with the lot of them is that their belief system states that all sexual "sin" is created equal, so they don't see cp as any worse than adult porn.

Yep. They see quick ;private masturbation as a 15 year old who's never even had a close friend or crush of the opposite as CONSTITUTING -- not even "like" but CONSTITUTING -- actual adultery and unfaithfulness against your future wife, even if you don't meet her for another 20 years. 

Making meaningful distinctions is not their long suit. By and large I don't think they even know or believe that many meaningful distinctions exist in the world. They think it's all completely simple -- black or white, satanic or totally saved by the blood. ...ETc. 

Very hard to function sensibly and ethically in the real world if that's the super-simplistic way in which you look at it. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

It would take a therapist, specializing in predators, months if not years, to to figure out why Josh is the way he is. There's not a one size fits all with this type of issue.

[Tabbygirl521]

1 minute ago, Trillium said:

The charges are for a child under 12, not a teen that maybe in some context could be mistaken for an adult. That type you’re not going to accidentally stumble across.

“Under 12” makes me shudder. That’s a big range.

I’m still steamed about Josh’s prior behavior being excused because he was “curious.” No, “curious” is when little kids are in the i’ll show you mine if you show me yours” stage. Not when touching or force or stealth is involved. 

[coconspirator]

One silver lining to this is Josh, if convicted or as part of a plea agreement, will finally have to participate in sexual offender treatment. A real treatment program that focuses on responsibility, accountability, and breaking through denial about the intent, harm, and intrusiveness of their act(s). It’s almost 20 years past due but should finally happen.

[hathorlive]

14 minutes ago, lascuba said:

 

 

I was just coming here to ask about this, because I was wondering what the likelihood was of the raid being about the cp versus something else and they came across it during the investigation. Thank you for your informative posts.

If they were hitting the car dealership up for financial crimes, siezed the computers and THEN found CP, they would literally have to stop, turn off the screen and contact the AUSA for an updated search warrant.  If your warrant says financial crimes, and you provide CP, then it can be thrown out of court for being beyond the scope of the SW.  We are always very careful to know what we are looking for and to talk to the lawyers.

[JoanArc]

6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It would take a therapist, specializing in predators, months if not years, to to figure out why Josh is the way he is. There's not a one size fits all with this type of issue.

Thank you.  Remote diagnosis is never a good idea. 

[mittsigirl]

3 hours ago, IndianPaintbrush said:

I'm pretty sure the Department of Justice/Project Safe Childhood has ways of tracking the IP addresses of people who receive known images of minor children. 

Okay, this happened to me about 6 years ago, I am a senior woman who lives in the middle of nowhere Saskatchewan, Canada, and live a simple life, am pretty naïve about some things in life. One day I was trying to find a store in Canada that sold root beer flavoring. I googled it and a place came up in the province right next to mine, so I clicked on it. All of a sudden my screen turned red, and all of these small sized pictures began coming and then going, replaced by more of them. They were all pictures of child pornography, something that I had never seen before, and they made me sick. I could not get out of this place, it was like my computer was frozen. I live 20 minutes from town, but picked up my laptop and drove right to the police station in about 15 minutes. I told them what had happened, and they took my laptop and told me to wait for them. I was so afraid that I was going to be blamed for this, I was shaking and crying so hard. After a while they came and got me, and told me that this was definitely not on me, not my fault at all, and got me calmed down. I saw things that day that I can't un-see, was shocked to see what I saw. They see this sick stuff all of the time in their work, I just can't imagine them having to see this every single day! All I had done was click on a store that was selling what I was looking to buy, but it was not what I was looking for. They explained to me that every time I heard a click, that was another picture being sent to someone on their computer, hundreds and hundreds of images being sent and received. They had my computer for a couple of days to see what information they could find and cleaned it all up for me. I never did ask what information they had found, or if they had found the person/people responsible to make any arrests, I just didn't even want to know. I just wanted my normal laptop to use again. I do know that if they did find information, that it would take a while before they would be charging anyone, because these pedophiles work in large groups, all over the world, it takes time to get all of the information together. I just felt that as soon as I saw what I was looking at, that I had to get to that police station as fast as I could. I was so afraid of being wrongly accused of something. They said I did the right thing, and that when we innocently click on to sites, we never know for sure what we are going to find. Imagine that-root beer flavorings. Pretty innocent, but really sick with what came from that one google search.

[hathorlive]

7 minutes ago, Temperance said:

For people who didn't read the charges. 

He's been charged with 

a)receiving child pornographic images.

b) being in possession of child pornographic images. 

Notice it does not state how many images are involved. Each image is not a separate count. It could be 2 images or 1, 000 images, etc. 

What Trillium said.

The receiving part is VERY interesting.   I hate this part of the examination because the feds always want to know if they received it and how.  My point is that if it's ON your computer, had to receive it to possess it.  Their logic is that receipt means a clear path of possession.   So, it simple terms, this MIGHT indicate that they can prove HOW he got the images on his computer.  And that is a HUGE deal.  Because you don't have to put him behind the keyboard to show guilt.  Possession is easy, it's on the computer or cell phone or not. Receipt is much harder to prove.  So they very well may have a smoking gun.

Just guessing at this point.  Sorry to be posting so much.

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, coconspirator said:

One silver lining to this is Josh, if convicted or as part of a plea agreement, will finally have to participate in sexual offender treatment. A real treatment program that focuses on responsibility, accountability, and breaking through denial about the intent, harm, and intrusiveness of their act(s). It’s almost 20 years past due but should finally happen.

Sadly, it wouldn't likely do much good. 

[Tabbygirl521]

1 minute ago, mittsigirl said:

Okay, this happened to me about 6 years ago, I am a senior woman who lives in the middle of nowhere Saskatchewan, Canada, and live a simple life, am pretty naïve about some things in life. One day I was trying to find a store in Canada that sold root beer flavoring. I googled it and a place came up in the province right next to mine, so I clicked on it. All of a sudden my screen turned red, and all of these small sized pictures began coming and then going, replaced by more of them. They were all pictures of child pornography, something that I had never seen before, and they made me sick. I could not get out of this place, it was like my computer was frozen. I live 20 minutes from town, but picked up my laptop and drove right to the police station in about 15 minutes. I told them what had happened, and they took my laptop and told me to wait for them. I was so afraid that I was going to be blamed for this, I was shaking and crying so hard. After a while they came and got me, and told me that this was definitely not on me, not my fault at all, and got me calmed down. I saw things that day that I can't un-see, was shocked to see what I saw. They see this sick stuff all of the time in their work, I just can't imagine them having to see this every single day! All I had done was click on a store that was selling what I was looking to buy, but it was not what I was looking for. They explained to me that every time I heard a click, that was another picture being sent to someone on their computer, hundreds and hundreds of images being sent and received. They had my computer for a couple of days to see what information they could find and cleaned it all up for me. I never did ask what information they had found, or if they had found the person/people responsible to make any arrests, I just didn't even want to know. I just wanted my normal laptop to use again. I do know that if they did find information, that it would take a while before they would be charging anyone, because these pedophiles work in large groups, all over the world, it takes time to get all of the information together. I just felt that as soon as I saw what I was looking at, that I had to get to that police station as fast as I could. I was so afraid of being wrongly accused of something. They said I did the right thing, and that when we innocently click on to sites, we never know for sure what we are going to find. Imagine that-root beer flavorings. Pretty innocent, but really sick with what came from that one google search.

I had something similar  happen once on my work computer (!) )small company; apparently not too tech savvy), except thank god it was mainly adult nudes in icky poses and not kids! I had done a search for something with the word “baby” in it and clicked the wrong hit. Image after image after image opened and all I could do was power it down and freak out. 

[Churchhoney]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It would take a therapist, specializing in predators, months if not years, to to figure out why Josh is the way he is. There's not a one size fits all with this type of issue.

And yet the Duggars have always treated it as if it was simple.

Hit him hard a few times. Then tell his sisters to apologize to him and tell them to make sure they don't hold it against him in the future. Have him confess his sins in front of a group of people and pray a lot .... And it'll all be fine....And that'll be it. 

A fine combination of hitting and praying when you're dealing with such a complex and individual problem and living in a home where absolutely nutso concepts of sexuality, power, good and behavior, forgiveness and many more are being spouted as the golden truths of the universe day in and day out. 

With their way of operating, I think JB and M are quite lucky that they haven't several more horrible messed-up outcomes among their children. Human beings are complicated and the way they proceed doesn't take that into account -- and adds piles of near-insanity to the mix. 

 

[mittsigirl]

1 minute ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I had something similar  happen once on my work computer (!) )small company; apparently not too tech savvy), except thank god it was mainly adult nudes in icky poses and not kids! I had done a search for something with the word “baby” in it and clicked the wrong hit. Image after image after image opened and all I could do was power it down and freak out. 

You were lucky to not have had to see children's images like that and that you could power down and get out of there! There is lots of sick stuff on the internet, I just never thought I would have to see any of it, it was really scary to me, because women get charged for child porn too, not just men. I may have over-reacted by going to the police, but I just was so afraid and had no other idea what I should do. Not glad that you also had this experience, just glad that I found somebody else that understands that this really does happen! Thanks for sharing with me:)

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

The receiving part is VERY interesting.   I hate this part of the examination because the feds always want to know if they received it and how.  My point is that if it's ON your computer, had to receive it to possess it.  Their logic is that receipt means a clear path of possession.   So, it simple terms, this MIGHT indicate that they can prove HOW he got the images on his computer.  And that is a HUGE deal.  Because you don't have to put him behind the keyboard to show guilt.  Possession is easy, it's on the computer or cell phone or not. Receipt is much harder to prove.  So they very well may have a smoking gun.

Just guessing at this point.  Sorry to be posting so much.

No need to apologize for sharing your legal expertise.   It helps to keep speculation down and keep the conversation more focused.  

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

And yet the Duggars have always treated it as if it was simple.

Hit him hard a few times. Then tell his sisters to apologize to him and tell them to make sure they don't hold it against him in the future. Have him confess his sins in front of a group of people and pray a lot .... And it'll all be fine....And that'll be it. 

A fine combination of hitting and praying when you're dealing with such a complex and individual problem and living in a home where absolutely nutso concepts of sexuality, power, good and behavior, forgiveness and many more are being spouted as the golden truths of the universe day in and day out. 

With their way of operating, I think JB and M are quite lucky that they haven't several more horrible messed-up outcomes among their children. Human beings are complicated and the way they proceed doesn't take that into account -- and adds piles of near-insanity to the mix. 

 

If these charges against Josh are proven to be true, there was nothing JB & M could have done 15+ years ago that would have changed Josh's behavior. That's not how it works.

[Future Cat Lady]

12 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

The receiving part is VERY interesting.   I hate this part of the examination because the feds always want to know if they received it and how.  My point is that if it's ON your computer, had to receive it to possess it.  Their logic is that receipt means a clear path of possession.   So, it simple terms, this MIGHT indicate that they can prove HOW he got the images on his computer.  And that is a HUGE deal.  Because you don't have to put him behind the keyboard to show guilt.  Possession is easy, it's on the computer or cell phone or not. Receipt is much harder to prove.  So they very well may have a smoking gun.

Just guessing at this point.  Sorry to be posting so much.

Does that mean he was in contact with someone who sent him stuff instead of downloading pics from a website? And could that be how they were made aware of him?

[coconspirator]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Sadly, it wouldn't likely do much good. 

Maybe not but there’s ZERO chance of him altering his thinking in a way that reduces his risk until he is held accountable in a treatment program; one that doesn’t let him hide behind stuff like “Satan made me do it.”
 

Josh is now the adult version of an adolescent sex offender who went untreated. JB and Michelle failed him as a child and others have suffered the consequences ever since.