Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Pachengala]

I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that the Ashley Madison scandal was the best thing that could've happened to Josh Duggar and the Duggar family in terms of helping them get back on television.

In this day and age, people have developed a short memory for scandal. The Ashley Madison hack was successful in that it shifted attention away from the molestation scandal and prevented it from lingering in the public consciousness for too long. It changed the conversation from an unforgivable crime like child molestation to something forgivable, relatable, and generates a good deal of sympathy for Anna and the children, and the poor parents whose bad seed son is tearing their wholesome family apart with his dalliances.

Those who do not follow the Duggars as closely as us, which is most people, will say, "Wait. What did Josh Duggar do again?," to which someone will reply, "Uh, didn't he get caught up in that Ashley Madison hack?," because it is the most recent thing that will come to mind.

Why do I think this? Because I literally overhead that exact conversation on a bus yesterday. People who aren't paying close attention have already had their memories overwritten by the latest scandal and they've already forgotten the original crime here...

This makes a lot of sense, but I also remember being surprised and appalled at how the Ashley Madison scandal seemed to be the way less forgivable crime than the molestation for a huge subset of people. People who were willing to buy the party line about him being a kid and it being in the past seemed over-the-top pissed about the A.Mad thing. The molestation on its own wasn't even enough to lose them the show; the affair was what sealed the deal.

[Purpose to defraud]

The mods thank you. And yes, I am going off topic a little here. Please forgive me.

And I thank the mods for their hard work. Over at Free Jinger, it's often a mess of tangents!

This makes a lot of sense, but I also remember being surprised and appalled at how the Ashley Madison scandal seemed to be the way less forgivable crime than the molestation for a huge subset of people. People who were willing to buy the party line about him being a kid and it being in the past seemed over-the-top pissed about the A.Mad thing. The molestation on its own wasn't even enough to lose them the show; the affair was what sealed the deal.

I still believe the blase attitude towards the molestation is often from others of their religious intensity. It all ties together with the Megyn Kelly interviews, to paraphrase "Lots of families have this or worse." I think child rape is a big part of religious extremism, in any religion.

[Aja]

This makes a lot of sense, but I also remember being surprised and appalled at how the Ashley Madison scandal seemed to be the way less forgivable crime than the molestation for a huge subset of people. People who were willing to buy the party line about him being a kid and it being in the past seemed over-the-top pissed about the A.Mad thing. The molestation on its own wasn't even enough to lose them the show; the affair was what sealed the deal.

It totally blew my mind that everyone from Megyn Kelley to Mike Huckabee and thousands of leghumpers in between were all "How dare you judge! The family already dealt with it! He was only a fourteen year old boy, and no fourteen year old boy totally gets that it's wrong to fondle his barely-out-of-diapers sister! I mean don't you have that in your family? What are you, weird? Stop attacking Christians!" and then when Josh gets caught banging hookers--arguably the most normal thing he's ever done, in a harrowing sense--everyone, including the Duggars themselves, totally clutched their pearls and fainted. I didn't even see a ton of commentary (apart from us guys) connecting the sexual dysfunction of Duggar-style child-rearing, the molestation and the philandering. Which, I mean...duh? Everything about Duggargates I & II, from the incidents themselves to the Duggar PR Circus of the Absurd to the public reaction, is totally mindblowing to me. 

[kokapetl]

People have different expectations from a 27 year old man than they do a 14 year old boy.

[yogi2014L]

And I thank the mods for their hard work. Over at Free Jinger, it's often a mess of tangents!

I still believe the blase attitude towards the molestation is often from others of their religious intensity. It all ties together with the Megyn Kelly interviews, to paraphrase "Lots of families have this or worse." I think child rape is a big part of religious extremism, in any religion.

YES I have been reading FJ for years and years, and omg I cannot deal with the tangents. Page after page of people talking about super specific things that have nothing to do with anything. It ruined what used to be a really great snark site. And they always attack each other. Its annoying

I like hearing personal stories, but only if it adds to the overall discussion. Like all the OB info from our Docs here ect. 

So, thank you mods.

 

TO be back on topic- I also agree the Ashley Madison hack was the best thing for the rest of the duggars. Anna looks great but man I wish those rumors of her leaving were true. 

[Lemur]

Drums! The horror! I thought music with a beat was of the Devil in Duggarland. Or is it just when other people do it?

 

Music with a BACKbeat.

 

All music has a beat, but not all music has a backbeat, or accentuation of the "off" beat.  

I still believe the blase attitude towards the molestation is often from others of their religious intensity. It all ties together with the Megyn Kelly interviews, to paraphrase "Lots of families have this or worse." I think child rape is a big part of religious extremism, in any religion.

 

Can I just add that Jessa's assertion that "LOTS (her emphasis) have this or worse" bothers the bejesus out of me?  Seriously, what the hell is going on in Duggarland?  And yes, I totally agree, I think child rape and child molestation have a tendency to run wild in patriarchal religious extremist societies.  Between these folks and the FLDS sects, I'm angered and horrified on behalf of these women that this is accepted as such a normal, regular occurrence.

[Kcat1971]

Good point!

 

Maybe that's why they can't be educated...they might put all the pieces together as soon as they read Plato.

 

Bwahahahaha!  Good one!

[Purpose to defraud]

People have different expectations from a 27 year old man than they do a 14 year old boy.

Yes, but they are also two completely different offenses, in my book. Consenting adults having sex is very different from abusing children.

[Zella]

It totally blew my mind that everyone from Megyn Kelley to Mike Huckabee and thousands of leghumpers in between were all "How dare you judge! The family already dealt with it! He was only a fourteen year old boy, and no fourteen year old boy totally gets that it's wrong to fondle his barely-out-of-diapers sister! I mean don't you have that in your family? What are you, weird? Stop attacking Christians!" and then when Josh gets caught banging hookers--arguably the most normal thing he's ever done, in a harrowing sense--everyone, including the Duggars themselves, totally clutched their pearls and fainted. I didn't even see a ton of commentary (apart from us guys) connecting the sexual dysfunction of Duggar-style child-rearing, the molestation and the philandering. Which, I mean...duh? Everything about Duggargates I & II, from the incidents themselves to the Duggar PR Circus of the Absurd to the public reaction, is totally mindblowing to me. 

One of the things that really confused me when the initial molestation scandal broke was the number of people I personally know who I had assumed were fairly normal people who just automatically defended the Duggars. None of them watched the show, but as soon as they heard about it, they just believed the Duggars were being persecuted for being conservative and/or Christian. That floored me. And then after I explained the Duggars and what the police reports said to each of these people, they were like "Oh yeah that's horrible," but it disturbed me that their automatic response to hearing about a teenager touching his younger sisters against their will was that it was no big deal.

[kokapetl]

I'm with you - it's very disturbing that people don't consider molestation (by anyone) absolutely heinous.

As for the Duggars, damn! Just about EVERYTHING is 'sinful', yet they absolutely discount what their son did to their daughters. That is one bent, broken moral compass the Duggars use.

I don't consider molestation to be harmless, but a child offender has reduced culpability. Harm doesn't always result from malice.

[Zella]

I'm with you - it's very disturbing that people don't consider molestation (by anyone) absolutely heinous.

As for the Duggars, damn! Just about EVERYTHING is 'sinful', yet they absolutely discount what their son did to their daughters. That is one bent, broken moral compass the Duggars use.

Their hypocrisy and complete lack of self-awareness are psychologically fascinating.

 

I was living in Fayetteville when Michelle did the robocalls about how transgender people shouldn't be allowed in bathrooms because they might molest children--I didn't get one because yay for not having a landline, but I talked to people who did get them. One of the first things I thought of when the molestation scandal broke was "Did it honestly never occur to these people NOT to call other people child molesters when you are sitting on top of a decades old child molestation scandal involving your own children." 

[kokapetl]

Sorry, I have to disagree. A 14 year old, even as under educated and under socialized as the Duggarettes, needs to be accountable for this kind of behavior - at the very least, professional counseling. The Duggars brag so much about their 'accountability' measures -prayer partners, chaperoned courtship right out of the Victorian age, but when their teen son diddles his sisters as they sleep (and/or stand in the pantry) it's 'just a boy a little too interested in girls'????

So Josh should be held to the same standard as Jared? I didn't say zero culpability.

I agree counseling should have happened at the very least. Josh did sue Arkansas CPS, so some sort of restriction/imposition was placed on him. I hope.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Kokapetl

[SomePity1066]

Sorry, I have to disagree. A 14 year old, even as under educated and under socialized as the Duggarettes, needs to be accountable for this kind of behavior - at the very least, professional counseling. The Duggars brag so much about their 'accountability' measures -prayer partners, chaperoned courtship right out of the Victorian age, but when their teen son diddles his sisters as they sleep (and/or stand in the pantry) it's 'just a boy a little too interested in girls'????

 

 

Agreed 100%, Mrs. Kisses - a 14 year-old is certainly old enough to know the difference between a "good" touch and a "bad" one ! Back in "my day" 14 year-olds were starting to hug and kiss and have little boyfriends and girlfriends (I know, I'm old !) but I can't imagine a world where someone that age doesn't know that that kind of activity isn't taboo, prohibited, gross, wrong, squicky, and disgusting with their own sisters. 

 

He knew very damn well that what he was doing was wrong !!! He made a choice to do it. Just as I did when I disobeyed my parents at that age, or drank a beer before I was 21, or, ummm...other things as well. Nothing like Josh, certainly, but kids at 14 can be... sly ? Not my word, but useful here. 

[Mollie]

JMO here but Josh, WAY before 14, should have been taught to respect his sisters enough that the thought of molesting them was unconscionable and more than a little bit CREEPY.

On the Fox interview Jim Bob and Michelle did after the sexual molestation reports were released, Jim Bob said that Josh's actions were those of a juvenile.  But that was just another one of his lies.  Under Arkansas law, if a 14-year-old sexually molests anyone under the age of 18, the 14-year-old is not considered a juvenile offender.  Josh was 14 and 15 when he molested four sisters and at least one other minor child. Jim Bob must have known that because he was a state legislator.

 

Jim Bob also must have known that he and Michelle could have gone to jail in 2003 if the authorities had known about the abuse, under Arkansas laws for child maltreatment:

 

"1) Failure or refusal to prevent the abuse of the juvenile when the person knows or has reasonable cause to know the juvenile is or has been abused;

 

"3)  Failure to take reasonable action to protect the juvenile from abandonment, abuse, sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, neglect, or parental unfitness where the existence of such condition was known or should have been known;"

http://humanservices.arkansas.gov/dcfs/dcfspublications/pub-357.pdf

on page 47.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Mollie

[kokapetl]

JMO here but Josh, WAY before 14, should have been taught to respect his sisters enough that the thought of molesting them was unconscionable and more than a little bit CREEPY.

He should have been taught, but his parents are total nutcases.

[truthtalk2014]

https://instagram.com/p/9d6_qQtkHO/?taken-by=amyrachelleking

 

I think Anna is looking so much better without Josh.

[louannems]

Wow! She has REALLY lost weight! I just can't even imagine how her life has changed.

[Vaysh]

In that particular picture she looks horrible imo, not thin but skinny bordering on scrawny and with a fake grin that doesn't reach her eyes. I've seen her looking better in other photos though.

[drafan]

Vintage Josh and Jothers on percussion (via Pickles and Hairspray)

When I saw this pic, I realized just how infuriating this cult is.....Josh and the Jboys got to mix into a crowd of kids at this event, wearing pretty normal-looking, albeit, hot-looking clothing....while the girls look like a Depression-era Montgomery Ward catalog page. If they were lucky, the other kids thought they were part of the period-costumed performers at the event.

Now I can see why Jessa does her "modern modest" thing and is so fixated on her look. The older girls are scarred, y'all !!!! Gah.

[CofCinci]

https://instagram.com/p/9d6_qQtkHO/?taken-by=amyrachelleking

I think Anna is looking so much better without Josh.

She's fasting for Josh and using Michelle's tanning bed. Yikes.

[louannems]

Anna's skin is orange. Either the tanning bed or tanning lotion! It's unfortunate that she has to have her pearly whites compared to Amy's fake bleached choppers.

[Beth64]

Anna probably thinks if she looks "hot", thin and tan, that Josh won't want to cheat. Sadly misguided, if so.

[kokapetl]

https://instagram.com/p/9d6_qQtkHO/?taken-by=amyrachelleking

I think Anna is looking so much better without Josh.

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Edited November 1, 2015 by Kokapetl

[GeeGolly]

Anna does look beautiful, but she looks stressfully thin.

[CofCinci]

I don't think she looks beautiful. She looks fake.  If you out fake Amy in a selfie, there is something wrong going on.

[lookeyloo]

don't know what's going on with her, really.  Her hair is parted on the other side - when I google image her, usually her hair is on the other side and flatter.  Does anyone thing there will be a sort of power shift if/when Josh comes back?  Like Anna will have some leverage?  Even if this is hidden from public view?

[kandinski]

It looks like our hunch was right,she is taking the "makeover" to keep my man route.

 

After weeks of being brainwashed into thinking she drove Josh to Ashley Madison,she thinks fixing a tooth,updating her make up and getting a fake tan are enough to place a band aid over the gaping wound of a marriage.

 

No disrespect to Anna though,women (and men) have been trying it for decades...

Edited November 1, 2015 by kandinski

[kokapetl]

I dunno if that's a fake tan, I think Amy tweaked the image to make herself look less orange, and Anna ended up looking jaundiced. And the teeth have been a work in progress for years.

If she suddenly "grows" a pair of giant fake looking tits, she's a lost cause, and I'd also then assume she'd had a certain orifice bleached for Josh. Don't do it Anna.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Purpose to defraud]

JMO here but Josh, WAY before 14, should have been taught to respect his sisters enough that the thought of molesting them was unconscionable and more than a little bit CREEPY.

He knew it was wrong, that's why he was sneaking it. He just didn't care.

[Aja]

He knew it was wrong, that's why he was sneaking it. He just didn't care.

Exactly. Also, JMO, while it was disturbing enough on its own how many people didn't think molesting children was any big deal because he was 'only' 14, that is only one aspect of Joshgate I that blows my mind. The interviews, the People articles, the blatant lies, the appalling excuses, the absolute INSISTENCE that what Josh did is totally benign because they were asleep. I think that's worse than a d-bag husband trying to hook up on Ashley Madison. I get all sins are the same in God's eyes, but not in mine.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Aja

[TaxNerd]

Exactly. Also, JMO, while it was disturbing enough on its own how many people didn't think molesting children was any big deal because he was 'only' 14, that is only one aspect of Joshgate I that blows my mind. The interviews, the People articles, the blatant lies, the appalling excuses, the absolute INSISTENCE that what Josh did is totally benign because they were asleep. I don't think that's worse than a d-bag husband trying to hook up on Ashley Madison. I get all sins are the same in God's eyes, but not in mine.

100% agree. I know several people who loosely follow the family and they fixated on the reports of a minor being "illegally" released for their outrage.

Maybe the AM release is more back and white wrong? Ironic considering the release was the result of an actual illegal hack.

Edited November 2, 2015 by TaxNerd

[Mrs. P.]

He knew it was wrong, that's why he was sneaking it. He just didn't care.

More than that, I think he knew he could get away with it because he knew his parents would protect him. He was their Golden Boy. He was confident that they would shield him from all outside scrutiny.

[kokapetl]

Delete

Edited November 2, 2015 by Kokapetl

[GeeGolly]

Who is saying Joshgate 1 is a lesser evil than Joshgate 2? I would think the opposite opinion would be true for most, considering cheating on a spouse is so common.

 

Joshgate 1 is worse on it's own, then throw in the fact that survivors were outed and invalidated, the awfulness of 1 & 2 aren't even in the same hemisphere.

 

Edited cuz through & throw are two different words.

Edited November 1, 2015 by GeeGolly

[kokapetl]

Who is saying Joshgate 1 is a lesser evil than Joshgate 2? I would think the opposite opinion would be true for most, considering cheating on a spouse is so common.

Joshgate 1 is worse on it's own, then through in the fact that survivors were outed and invalidated, the awfulness of 1 & 2 aren't even in the same hemisphere.

Joshgate 2 implies Josh's 7+ year marriage is a sham on his part, and he is totally culpable/responsible for the suffering of his family. Joshgate 1 is more harmful to his family, his behavior was also clearly also criminal, but his culpability was markedly less due to his age.

[truthtalk2014]

I realize that some people may think that Anna is working on her appearance more to win Josh back - but the other possibility is that she is working on herself for a change.  When my scumbag cheated on me, I went through the depression but then I was pissed.  I realized that I had concentrated so much time on him, the kids (nothing wrong with devoting time to kids) and the house that I had not really concentrated on me.

 

I started working out more, more makeup, better clothes and simply felt better about me.  I'm hoping above hope that Anna is feeling empowered.  She really does hold all the cards IMO.  Plus, the poor girl has been out from under the daily pregnancy test crap for a while now.  I hope they never release him from RU. 

 

I'm really happy to see her hanging out with Amy.  Amy is pretty much the only one in that family that is going to give her some honest advice about her scumbag husband. 

[zenme]

Oh, how I wish I felt Anna's working on her looks was totally for herself, but I think she's doing it to be attractive to Josh, but the results have her feeling better about herself. My friend was married to a sex addict. Initially, she tried to give in to his every whim. She wanted her family intact. The guy never changed. Good luck, Anna.

[mimionthebeach]

It never occurred to me that Anna's weight loss was deliberate. I assumed it was due to the stress and devastation she's been dealing with. Couple loss of appetite with breastfeeding and you're going to see the pounds fall.

[zenme]

It never occurred to me that Anna's weight loss was deliberate. I assumed it was due to the stress and devastation she's been dealing with. Couple loss of appetite with breastfeeding and you're going to see the pounds fall

 

Definitely.  I think it's a combination of not wanting to eat because she's sick with stress and wanting to appear "hot" to Josh. 

[maplebrew]

Plus, the poor girl has been out from under the daily pregnancy test crap for a while now.

 

 

Delurking to say this is an excellent point. A rest from the multiple pregnancies, timed close together, has to be restorative for the body. 

[Sew Sumi]

Good to see the spirited Amy spends some of her ample free time with Anna.

Maybe they could take photography lessons together or something.

They were actually at a benefit for a teen mom style crisis pregnancy center. Most of the Duggars were there, as was Sierra.

[MrHufflepuff]

Regarding the various Joshgates, I think there are several issues here that are distinct:

 

1.  Is non-consensual sexual activity (such as molestation) worse than consensual activity?  I think clearly it is.  In Joshgate 1, we have non-consensual activity with his sisters, and in Joshgate 2, I'm assuming that Josh wasn't upfront with Anna about his escapades, and if that's the case, any sex he had with Anna after he started cheating, would, in my view, be non-consensual.  But, I would classify the molestation as "worse" than the sex with Anna, since in Joshgate 1, there was no consent, but in Joshgate 2, Anna "consented" with bad information.  I guess, the distinction in my mind is the use of coercion vs. the use of lying.  Both are wrong, but if I have to rank "wrongness," I'd put the molestation as worse.

 

But, Josh's sex with the porn stars in Joshgate 2, is to my mind, completely consensual, and there's nothing wrong with consensual sex.  And I think (based on stuff I've read), that there are a lot of people who don't see it this way.  There are people who think that the consensual sex with strippers is "worse" than the non-consensual molestation or the sex under false pretenses with Anna.  And that to my mind is wrong.

 

2.  Should juvenile offenders be treated differently than adults?  In my mind, yes, but I'm not the one pushing draconian sentencing laws on juvenile offenders.  And some of the people I have personally seen defending Josh for Joshgate 1 are the same people who I see routinely push for harsh sentencing laws on juveniles.  But, the issue of how to treat juvenile offenders is a distinct issue from consent/non-consent sexual issues.  And I do quite often see people defending Josh on Joshgate 1 by pointing out his age, which, just no.  His age is not a defense of what he did, nor does it lessen the wrong he committed.  What his age does mean, in my view, is that after we've acknowledged what he did was wrong, we can discuss how we would treat him because of his age.  But that discussion has to come after the acknowledgement that what he did was very, very wrong.  

 

3.  How should adults behave with juvenile offenders?  As I said, I'm okay with treating juvenile offenders differently than adults.  But that's a two-way street.  These offenders have committed a wrong and we still as a society have to protect ourselves from them.  And that means handling juveniles with proper treatment and counseling or whatever the best we can make available to them so that they won't re-offend.  And I'm aware that this doesn't often happen in the US.  But when the adults (such as JimBob and Michelle) have the resources to deal with this appropriately, and they choose not to, then I'm going to criticize them.  Because the fact that Josh was a juvenile in Joshgate 1 doesn't let them off the hook for their culpability here.

 

YMMV and all that, but this is my view.

[Oldernowiser]

It is my most profound, hopeful wish that Anna's new look means that she plans to search for a new husband who will appreciate her and adore her kids while she simultaneously blackmails every possible cent out of Josh and her in-laws.

Amen.

[Sew Sumi]

Not a chance. I'm firmly in the "wants to look hot for Josh" camp. Sad but unfortunately true.

[truthtalk2014]

It is my most profound, hopeful wish that Anna's new look means that she plans to search for a new husband who will appreciate her and adore her kids while she simultaneously blackmails every possible cent out of Josh and her in-laws.

Amen.

LOL - that would be too funny.  

[JenCarroll]

***

 

No disrespect to Anna though,women (and men) have been trying it for decades...

Centuries. At least.

[truthtalk2014]

Centuries. At least.

The really sad part that men and women do not realize at that point is that it wasn't that the spouse didn't feel you were worthy- THEY didn't feel worthy.  

 

And the more you better yourself, the less worthy they feel.  Go Anna!  

[Patricia07]

As they say, looking good is the best revenge.

[JoanArc]

Six years with Josh would be awful for anyone. Just not having to deal with him every day would take ten years off anyone's looks.

[babyhouseman]

Good to see the spirited Amy spends some of her ample free time with Anna.

Maybe they could take photography lessons together or something.

Why is Amy wearing Sonny Bono's fur vest?