Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[CalicoKitty]

The baby would not have that name without Josh's approval.  I still think he did it to be mean.

[quarks]

15 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

Is there any possibility that there is a financial aspect to this case, at all?  Like maybe tracing where the money came from that was used to pay for the pictures and videos?  In my dream world, maybe the money was moved from JB's accounts??  (I really need to stop reading mystery books.)

So far the only financial questions mentioned in court documents have focused on the car lot employment records and related pay stubs, in an ongoing attempt to pin down the exact employment dates of Matthew Waller and Randall Berry. 

These questions have strongly hinted that something is off with the business records, but I have no idea if this rises to the level of a crime.

[ozziemom]

Is the Reber/Keller wedding tonight? Who will be watching Smuggar? Will Anna wear that black dress again? Will TFDW be there? Inquiring minds need to know!

[sue450]

27 minutes ago, beckie said:

Re: the baby's name. Is it possible that Anna never knew about the website? Or that maybe she knew, but didn't want the details, helping her perpetual state of denial? If she didn't know the name of the website, it's possible she didn't name Madyson after it. 

 

she didn't announce the baby name until 3 weeks later..wouldn't someone in the family have mentioned the ashley  madison debacle???   either josh picked the name because he enjoys taunting anna  or anna picked it because..she forgave him after it happened and  they and their relationship rose from the ashes like the phoenix   so the name holds no importance to her it is all behind them he was forgiven

[CalicoKitty]

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

So far the only financial questions mentioned in court documents have focused on the car lot employment records and related pay stubs, in an ongoing attempt to pin down the exact employment dates of Matthew Waller and Randall Berry. 

These questions have strongly hinted that something is off with the business records, but I have no idea if this rises to the level of a crime.

Thank you very much.  I just keep feeling that there may be more going on than has been made public.  I appreciate the knowledge and expertise from friends on this board.  I am learning a lot!

[xwordfanatik]

16 hours ago, hathorlive said:

OMG.  You date me with that reference.  My sister saved all the wrappers and made some strange chain out of them.  I chewed that stuff forever, just to get her wrappers.  When people moan and groan about the Internet and wishing for simpler times, I point to this.  We were so bored we made things out of trash.

Same thing happened to me, with my sister and her gum wrapper chain!  I chewed gum, not sugar free, and have the dental work to prove it.

I wonder if Joshanna wore smirks under their masks.  I would bet yes.

[Westiepeach]

Man, I made my share of gum wrapper chains. My older sisters did it, so I had to copy them and do it as well. I have no idea anymore how to fold those wrappers to make that chain...

[GeeGolly]

Folks in jail make gum wrapper chains too.

[quarks]

Quote

Pickles says in the comments, he and David Waller's apparently witnesses something Josh did in the car lot. And they are being called as a witness by prosecution

Matthew Waller is apparently testifying.  He seems to have worked at the car lot at one point; his pay stubs from the car lot were entered as evidence in the September hearing.

Otherwise, he hasn't been specifically mentioned in any of the motions, so I don't know what he'll be testifying about. 

[hathorlive]

22 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The intense local news coverage of the pre-trial hearing means that we'll also get in-depth reporting of the trial.  So we don't have to crowdfund @hathorlive to go and sit in the courtroom for us.  (BTW, how is Beau?  Is he getting along with his big sister?)

LOL, trust me, I'd take vacation time to go sit in that court room if there wasn't Covid.  The forensics will be fascinating to listen to.  The Feds know what they are doing.  The defense chick...well, I hope she's gotten better over the years since I last saw her.  But the fuckery will be AMAZING coming from the defense.  I'm sad that Federal court cases aren't streamed.  But I will be reading the press releases and telling y'all what I think.  And again, it's only based on my experience and my cases.  

 

Elle and Beau are best friends. I think Jake approves. 

Insert existing attachment

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Folks in jail make gum wrapper chains too.

We're bringing gum wrapper chains BACK!!

[sue450]

13 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

LOL, trust me, I'd take vacation time to go sit in that court room if there wasn't Covid.  The forensics will be fascinating to listen to.  The Feds know what they are doing.  The defense chick...well, I hope she's gotten better over the years since I last saw her.  But the fuckery will be AMAZING coming from the defense.  I'm sad that Federal court cases aren't streamed.  But I will be reading the press releases and telling y'all what I think.  And again, it's only based on my experience and my cases.  

 

Elle and Beau are best friends. I think Jake approves. 

Insert existing attachment

We're bringing gum wrapper chains BACK!!

what defense  chick????  who is this???   thanks

 

[JustRosie]

 

They should have named that baby Mercy. 

[SMama]

42 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

LOL, trust me, I'd take vacation time to go sit in that court room if there wasn't Covid. 

You’d be accurate on your assessments unlike that WACB poser.

[BitterApple]

With regards to the name, I think Anna simply liked "Madison" and didn't connect the dots. I fully believe Josh connected the dots and just didn't give a shit. 

[JoanArc]

Quote

#6  Act like a backwoods goober who has no contact with the outside world. They should stick Mullet on the stand...she can pull the sweet, innocent, baby-voiced act like it's nobody's business. Notice I said "act".

We'll soon have a matching Jim Bob gif!

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, sue450 said:

she didn't announce the baby name until 3 weeks later..wouldn't someone in the family have mentioned the ashley  madison debacle???   either josh picked the name because he enjoys taunting anna  or anna picked it because..she forgave him after it happened and  they and their relationship rose from the ashes like the phoenix   so the name holds no importance to her it is all behind them he was forgiven

Except Ashley Madison was a couple of kids ago.  She could have named the last girl Madyson instead of Maryella. 

[JoanArc]

1 minute ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Except Ashley Madison was a couple of kids ago.  She could have named the last girl Madyson instead of Maryella. 

I read that as Malaria.

[Dianaofthehunt]

Here’s my ideal jury for this trial:

Two thirds are women, ALL of whom are highly educated and hold various positions of power (no housewives!) The remaining jury members are also highly educated and all are believers in Science over superstition. 
Any mention of “Satan” by the defense would cause instant and simultaneous eye rolls, and the occasional rogue snickering.
That’s my dream I share with you all, free of charge.

[Gemma Violet]

29 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Here’s my ideal jury for this trial:

Two thirds are women, ALL of whom are highly educated and hold various positions of power (no housewives!) The remaining jury members are also highly educated and all are believers in Science over superstition. 
Any mention of “Satan” by the defense would cause instant and simultaneous eye rolls, and the occasional rogue snickering.
That’s my dream I share with you all, free of charge.

Speaking of juries, I hope the vast majority of the jury are women.  Perfect that a misogynist's fate would lie in the hands of women.

 

 

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Gemma Violet
Can't get rid of the quote box.

[jcbrown]

22 hours ago, hathorlive said:

OMG.  You date me with that reference.  My sister saved all the wrappers and made some strange chain out of them.  I chewed that stuff forever, just to get her wrappers.  When people moan and groan about the Internet and wishing for simpler times, I point to this.  We were so bored we made things out of trash.

I had totally forgotten about gum wrapper chains! And I also have forgotten how to make them.

3 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Elle and Beau are best friends. I think Jake approves. 

Insert existing attachment

We're bringing gum wrapper chains BACK!!

Oh, your doggos are adorable. I'm sure Jake approves.

I share the dream of an all-female atheist jury for this case.

[Gweilo]

I dream of an all-female jury made up of devout women of faith, all of whom kick his ass for daring to hide behind ideas of Christian forgiveness and it being Satan's fault.

Let him be found guilty by his "own" people.

[Quilt Fairy]

4 hours ago, JoanArc said:

I read that as Malaria.

Malarya.  (Which will never be pronounced correctly.)

Don't you folks think male jurors will be even harsher on Josh than female jurors?

@hathorlive, please post pictures of Beau and Elle on a regular basis. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Quilt Fairy

[floridamom]

If I remember correctly, Josh didn't confess...He "confessed" after Jill went running to her parents when she caught him in one of 'those moments" with one of her sisters. Josh "confessed" after being found out....not the same to true sorrow and repentance, IMO.

[absnow54]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

If I remember correctly, Josh didn't confess...He "confessed" after Jill went running to her parents when she caught him in one of 'those moments" with one of her sisters. Josh "confessed" after being found out....not the same to true sorrow and repentance, IMO.

Yes. In the most damming incident, a sister witnessed and tattled, and Josh subsequently admitted to it when confronted. 

[LilyD]

18 hours ago, lulu69 said:

Me too. I agree with previous posters that Anna likely believes Madyson is a totally different name than Madison.

Madyson is a totally different name than Ashley Madison. And we, the outside world and specifically this forum, are the idiots who do not get that and keep seeing things that aren’t there. There’s absolutely no connection or similarity between those names….Well, according to Anna….

Edited November 20, 2021 by LilyD

[hathorlive]

18 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

Man, I made my share of gum wrapper chains. My older sisters did it, so I had to copy them and do it as well. I have no idea anymore how to fold those wrappers to make that chain...

I never went to camp (though my sisters did).  They were much older than me, so I wasn't coordinated enough to fold them.  My job was to chew and chew.  I, too, have the dental work to prove it.  I never understood why she was making the chain. I just figured she needed something to do while listening to Peter Frampton and Barry Manilow.  This is what happens when you live in a rural hollar with no cable or library.

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

Yes. In the most damming incident, a sister witnessed and tattled, and Josh subsequently admitted to it when confronted. 

I think this bothers me more than most of the Josh travesty.  Jill is abused.  She knows her sister is being abused.  She tells her parents, which is a courageous act, and then sees her parents dismiss the abuse, whitewash the situation, lie to protect her predator brother, and generally make her feel like its her fault.  No wonder Jill was a hot mess.  I admire her for getting real therapy.  Since she is now processing her feelings, I bet this trial will be hard for her.  It was easier when she was told to be 'JOY'ful and to put others before herself.  And yet, Josh the pervert is welcome in the family and she's an outcast.

[hathorlive]

21 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Malarya.  (Which will never be pronounced correctly.)

Don't you folks think male jurors will be even harsher on Josh than female jurors?

@hathorlive, please post pictures of Beau and Elle on a regular basis. 

I'm afraid the mods may not appreciate the diversion!  I will go into the small talk thread. He's a sweet boy, wrapped up in a hellion.

In my experience with juries, its a mixed bag.  Nearly every person is disgusted.  Fathers and mothers see their children in the videos and images.  Older people are shocked at this stuff exists.  I always worry that there are abuse victims who don't speak out during voir dire to avoid serving.  If you are ever called for jury duty and it triggers you, raise your hand and ask to speak to the Judge and attorneys.  Tell them why you  can't be impartial. It's the best way to get dismissed from a jury.

Edited November 21, 2021 by hathorlive
my dog stepped on the keyboard, entered characters and somehow hit enter

[AgathaC]

I have little experience with juries, but I have heard that they can really surprise you (and not in a good way) and I’ve witnessed some antithetical reactions and attitudes in real life. I seem to recall that in the OJ Simpson trial, the prosecution thought that getting certain types of women on the jury would really help them because they would be horrified at the abuse Nicole suffered. Actually, those women ended up somewhat blaming Nicole for it, so that worked against them. Sometimes women are the ones who go easier on the men — the whole “he can’t help it/she shouldn’t have provoked him/someone should have taken better care of him” phenomenon.

[merylinkid]

16 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

f you are ever called for jury duty and it trig1gers you, raise your hand and ask to speak to the Judge and attorneys. 

Goodness yes.   Don't be afraid to do it because you think you will have to say it out loud in front of everyone.   If you ask to speak to the judge and attorneys privately they will let you.   They are human beings too.   They don't want anyone on the jury to have their mental health put at risk by having to serve when they really should not.  

BTW, @hathorlive you okay?   That post kinda trailed off.

TOPIC:   For Anna to connect Madyson to the scandal would require long term thinking on her part.   I just don't think she has the critical thinking skills to do that.   Or to care that much.   WE are obsessing over it because we live in a world of criticial thinking and analysis.  WE go over the scandals endlessly.   Anna probably didn't think anything about it after probably a month or two.   It's just not on her radar.   She chose the name because she likes it.  Period.   Josh could care less what his spawn are named.   He probably considers that "women's work" anyway.

[Almost 3000]

On 11/18/2021 at 9:36 PM, Boston said:

Raising hand - I made gum wrapper chains when i was at daycamp WAY back in the 70s.

Yeah, me too. My friends and I thought we knew the apartment of Monkee Micky Dolenz's apartment so we made the them to drape his door. It probably wasn't even him so I now laugh at the thought of this poor resident wondering WTF happened to their door.

[Rootbeer]

Just now, AgathaC said:

I have little experience with juries, but I have heard that they can really surprise you (and not in a good way) and I’ve witnessed some antithetical reactions and attitudes in real life. I seem to recall that in the OJ Simpson trial, the prosecution thought that getting certain types of women on the jury would really help them because they would be horrified at the abuse Nicole suffered. Actually, those women ended up somewhat blaming Nicole for it, so that worked against them. Sometimes women are the ones who go easier on the men — the whole “he can’t help it/she shouldn’t have provoked him/someone should have taken better care of him” phenomenon.

There have been studies on juries and you're right.  In general, women jurors are less likely to convict a man for sexual assault.  The theory is that, even in this day and age, women have been conditioned to view rape as preventable and something that the victim 'asked for' by drinking too much, by going to the guy's place alone, by dressing provocatively or walking alone at night.  They tend to rationalize the act instead of putting themselves in the woman's shoes; the whole 'I would have never been in that situation' thing that lets them pretend that it could never happen to them.

OJ's jury was a whole 'nother thing.  The case was lost when the prosecution agreed to move the trial out of the wealthy suburbs and into downtown LA to allow for more media access.  The jury pool changed drastically with that move and included a large number of middle and lower middle class blacks who were very aware that the cops often treated black suspects unfairly and who also idolized OJ for having climbed out of the ghetto and achieving fame and fortune.  OJ's lawyers saw their opportunity and took it; using both of those things to convince them that OJ was framed and the cops were lying.  It didn't help that the prosecution dragged it out way too long and spent days and days in complicated discussion of DNA that the jury tuned out.

In Josh' case, I am sure both the prosecution and the defense have an idea in mind of what their ideal juror looks like and, sometimes, it is very surprising.

I've been involved in two civil trials and, in both cases, jury selection took no more than half a day; but I doubt that is comparable to a criminal case.  I was the defendant (malpractice claims happen in my line of work) both times and spoke with the lawyers about what they were looking for.  In my cases, it was very straightforward; they wanted people who were typical middle class types, people who hadn't been involved in similar situations, people who looked to be upstanding citizens (working, involved in the community).  Male or female not important, nor was old or young.  

My sister has a master's in psychology and her thesis was on juries.  Her mentor for the degree was a PhD psychologist who did a lot of research on how juries work and often consulted on cases to profile the sort of juror that would most likely provide the desired outcome.  When OJ Simpson's jury was chosen, there was an article in the paper giving brief descriptions of each member: age, race, occupation.  My sister took one look at it and said emphatically, 'He's acquitted.  There is no way that jury will vote to convict.'  

[Almost 3000]

On 11/19/2021 at 7:16 AM, hathorlive said:

Was Josh holding his jacket like that because it doesn't fit and he didn't want it flapping in the wind? Or was he trying to show his wedding ring? It's a weird way to hold your jacket.

I hold my kimonos like that when I'm not wearing a bra so maybe Josh is trying to do the same thing.

[Almost 3000]

Does any one else remember the massive amount of posts Josh used to make about food. He'd post several times daily about his drive through lunches, restaurant meals and sometimes Anna's food.  He'd also weirdly post pixs of signs while driving around. There were 100s of them copied over at FJ so many they had their own thread. It seemed obsessive but so innocent now in hindsight. He should have stuck to driving around and posting as his hobby...

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

I never went to camp (though my sisters did).  They were much older than me, so I wasn't coordinated enough to fold them.  My job was to chew and chew.  I, too, have the dental work to prove it.  I never understood why she was making the chain. I just figured she needed something to do while listening to Peter Frampton and Barry Manilow.  This is what happens when you live in a rural hollar with no cable or library.

I think this bothers me more than most of the Josh travesty.  Jill is abused.  She knows her sister is being abused.  She tells her parents, which is a courageous act, and then sees her parents dismiss the abuse, whitewash the situation, lie to protect her predator brother, and generally make her feel like its her fault.  No wonder Jill was a hot mess.  I admire her for getting real therapy.  Since she is now processing her feelings, I bet this trial will be hard for her.  It was easier when she was told to be 'JOY'ful and to put others before herself.  And yet, Josh the pervert is welcome in the family and she's an outcast.

💯 agree. Her sisters owe her a lot for being the one with the courage to tell her parents about Josh and make the abuse stop. But I doubt even one has ever thanked her.

[BigBingerBro]

12 minutes ago, Almost 3000 said:

Does any one else remember the massive amount of posts Josh used to make about food. He'd post several times daily about his drive through lunches, restaurant meals and sometimes Anna's food.  He'd also weirdly post pixs of signs while driving around. There were 100s of them copied over at FJ so many they had their own thread. It seemed obsessive but so innocent now in hindsight. He should have stuck to driving around and posting as his hobby...

I absolutely remember this.  He was fairly thin and fit at the time and everyone said he would put on a large amount of weight if he kept eating all that fast food.  Well that happened.  I remember thinking how that based on his posting of that stuff he seemed stunted, like it was something a teenager would do.  The same thing some of his adult sisters still do.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, BigBingerBro said:

I absolutely remember this.  He was fairly thin and fit at the time and everyone said he would put on a large amount of weight if he kept eating all that fast food.  Well that happened.  I remember thinking how that based on his posting of that stuff he seemed stunted, like it was something a teenager would do.  The same thing some of his adult sisters still do.

I’m not surprised he (and others) had major food issues after being deprived for so many years of regular meals and having to share with 22 others!

[Zella]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m not surprised he (and others) had major food issues after being deprived for so many years of regular meals and having to share with 22 others!

Yeah I've posted about this before and don't want to come across as a broken record, but so many of the kids seem to have a dysfunctional relationship with food, that it really makes me wonder what kind of Lord of the Flies dystopia their mealtimes are when the cameras are off. 

[farmgal4]

18 hours ago, JoanArc said:

We'll soon have a matching Jim Bob gif!

Yeah, when he learns the final balance of the attorney’s fee.

[ozziemom]

Anna may have wanted to use the name Madysn (sp. ?) way back before the Ashley Madison scandal but then Grandma Mary died. And Anna figured she’d get brownie points with Boob and named the baby MaryElla. I can imagine Anna being so clueless she never associated Madysn with Ashley Madison. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, ozziemom said:

Anna may have wanted to use the name Madysn (sp. ?) way back before the Ashley Madison scandal but then Grandma Mary died. And Anna figured she’d get brownie points with Boob and named the baby MaryElla. I can imagine Anna being so clueless she never associated Madysn with Ashley Madison. 

The new baby’s name is Madysn? Do we know when she arrived?

[ginger90]

So, they got married…..

[Rootbeer]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

The new baby’s name is Madysn? Do we know when she arrived?

Welcome back, stranger!  Anna posted the announcement on Tuesday.  The baby was born in late October.  There's a ton of discussion a few pages back.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rootbeer

[BitterApple]

Hannah looks lovely but what in discount store hell is going on with those bridesmaids dresses? One girl is in sequins and another in orange velvet. I don't know if the slightly varied shades were intentional, or the gowns were ordered cheap off Amazon and arrived mismatched. Either way, I'm befuddled.

[Westiepeach]

Looks like Nurie was not part of the bridal party?

[Quilt Fairy]

Is this supposedly a professional photographer?  Because in that shot of the couple, not only are they not both looking the same way, she's got 2 wooden posts coming out of her head and he's got a barrel on his shoulder.  He's also got his hands in his pockets, but that seems minor compared to the other shit.  I know I wouldn't hire this guy.  

I'm off to find the Duggar-adjacents thread where this is discussed. 

[Rootbeer]

8 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

Looks like Nurie was not part of the bridal party?

Maybe she asked not to be included because the wedding was so close to her original due date?  Anna's not in the bridal party either.

11 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Hannah looks lovely but what in discount store hell is going on with those bridesmaids dresses? One girl is in sequins and another in orange velvet. I don't know if the slightly varied shades were intentional, or the gowns were ordered cheap off Amazon and arrived mismatched. Either way, I'm befuddled.

The ugly mauvish shade is bad enough, but the totally random nature of the fabrics is weird.  Did someone actually think that dark orange looked good alongside the dusty pink?  Very unattractive grouping of dresses, IMO.  I am also very much over the recent custom of having bridesmaids in the double digits in the wedding.  Fundies seem to be particularly fond of it.  It looks silly to me.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Rootbeer

[Westiepeach]

I never expected Anna to be a bridesmaid. Never.

[Scarlett45]

@Westiepeach I wouldn’t expect Nurie to be in the bridal party. She hasn’t been Daniel’s sister in law for very long, and I would think Hannah would have her own sisters/friends to include. 

[Westiepeach]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

@Westiepeach I wouldn’t expect Nurie to be in the bridal party. She hasn’t been Daniel’s sister in law for very long, and I would think Hannah would have her own sisters/friends to include. 

I agree 100%... but since Daniel is Nathan's brother and business partner, and since there were a zillion bridesmaids...

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Westiepeach said:

I agree 100%... but since Daniel is Nathan's brother and business partner, and since there were a zillion bridesmaids...

I wonder if Nathan was in the bridal party.