Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[emmawoodhouse]

9 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

I feel bad for her.   She spoke up as forcefully as she felt she safely could considering her husband was all for it.   The JUDGE who is NOT fundie, did not take her seriously and allowed it.   this is on the Judge.   

IIRC, she mentioned during her questioning that she would relent to her husband's wishes. I don't think the judge could do anything with that 

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

The JUDGE who is NOT fundie, did not take her seriously and allowed it.   this is on the Judge. 

That judge is not the one who is presiding over Josh's trial. 

[emmawoodhouse]

4 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That judge is not the one who is presiding over Josh's trial. 

Right. But her edict is now law as far as Smuggar's confinement is concerned.

[Quilt Fairy]

33 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Right. But her edict is now law as far as Smuggar's confinement is concerned.

Right.  I just wanted to remind people that there are 2 different judges being discussed. 

[Albanyguy]

6 hours ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

I’m sorry that Mrs. Reber might have to continue housing that carcinoma after sentencing, but she should have spoken up and said “NO!” In the first place. 
Yes, I realize in their world, women's’ opinions don’t count for squat.

And I’ll bet the poor woman has been waiting on Josh hand and foot, making his bed and picking his wet towels up off the bathroom floor. I’ll further bet that when Anna is hanging out with Josh at the Rebers, she doesn’t lift a finger to help Mrs. Reber with anything.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Albanyguy

[GeeGolly]

I'm guessing the court will take breaks and Tweets will go out then. Maybe midmorning, lunchtime and midafternoon. 

Mrs Reber did a favor she was mildly reluctant to do, something we've all done. In her world she probably thinks she's getting extra points toward the good seats. Anyway her count down also begins - 5 days to when the trial begins and Josh is gone for a large part of the day. And possibly 16 days until Josh moves out of the Reber home for good.

Edited November 25, 2021 by GeeGolly

[Jeeves]

51 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm guessing the court will take breaks and Tweets will go out then. Maybe midmorning, lunchtime and midafternoon. 

Mrs Reber did a favor she was mildly reluctant to do, something we've all done. In her world she probably thinks she's getting extra pints toward the good seats. Anyway her count down also begins - 5 days to when the trial begins and Josh is gone for a large part of the day. And possibly 16 days until Josh moves out of the Reber home for good.

I agree about Mrs. Reber. The judge at the release hearing questioned her directly about her willingness to have Josh at her home, and to obey court orders, and Mrs. Reber clearly said - under oath - that she was willing to do it and to follow the court orders. Our discussions here have IMO tended to paint Mrs. R as a bit of a victim of her husband's will, but for all we know she's just as avid a fundie as he is.

BTW, I enjoy imagining that Mr. R has been regularly sitting down with Josh for one-on-one Bible study sessions during Josh's release. Because I doubt Josh would enjoy those at all but isn't in a position to tell him no thanks. Heh.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Jeeves

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

BTW, I enjoy imagining that Mr. R has been regularly sitting down with Josh for one-on-one Bible study sessions during Josh's release. Because I doubt Josh would enjoy those at all but isn't in a position to tell him no thanks. Heh.

Which is why I find it odd that some people speculate that Josh will start (sincerely or not) a prison ministry once he's inside (God willing).  While Josh has readily spouted the misogynistic and homophobic platforms of the cult, he's never been, AFAIK, a bible thumper.  As others have stated, I doubt he really believes any of it at all. 

[Chaos Theory]

If Josh goes to prison he will likely end up in segregation.  He will be there with gang drop outs, snitches and other sex offenders.   Prisons are a hierarchy like anything else and no one is going to care about his religious affiliation.   These are bad dudes who many are never going to see their own kids again in prison with a guy who looks at kiddie porn (at absolute best).   He is not going to be asked to run a Bible study or join a gang.     

[Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Which is why I find it odd that some people speculate that Josh will start (sincerely or not) a prison ministry once he's inside (God willing).  While Josh has readily spouted the misogynistic and homophobic platforms of the cult, he's never been, AFAIK, a bible thumper.  As others have stated, I doubt he really believes any of it at all. 

Josh will only start a Bible study if he finds some way to profit from it.  His faith has always been a marketable commodity; it's how he got the gig with the FRC.  If there's something in it for him, Josh will be beating a Bible for all he's worth.

[SusanM]

42 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

If there's something in it for him, Josh will be beating a Bible for all he's worth.

I think he probably will beat the bible while in prison because what will be in it for him is calculated redemption for when he gets out.  At best we're looking at about 8 yrs in prison - he will still be a relatively young man, with a bunch of kids to support, when he gets out. 

Unless he is going to cut ties with his crazy fundie family (unlikely) his best bet is to try - once again -  to become the golden boy they had him cast as originally.  I think they can spin it two different ways : Josh really is guilty but hits the repentance, the lord saved this sorry sinner, route ; or the Josh was never guilty, satan manipulated everything and now Josh is ready to take his rightful place as the second coming of the lord, praise jesus route.

Edited November 25, 2021 by SusannahM

[Dianaofthehunt]

Happy Thanksgiving Day, everyone! I hope your holiday is peaceful and stress-free.
By the time of the Winter Holidays, we’ll know what’s what. Let’s hope Santa Claus secretly injects Anna with contraceptive!

[Zella]

I think y'all are attributing way too much self-motivation to Josh. Even before the arrest, he's seemed pretty content to spend his post-2015 years doing virtually nothing. 

[GeeGolly]

I think Josh spent more time beating something else. 🙃

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If Josh goes to prison he will likely end up in segregation.  He will be there with gang drop outs, snitches and other sex offenders.   Prisons are a hierarchy like anything else and no one is going to care about his religious affiliation.   These are bad dudes who many are never going to see their own kids again in prison with a guy who looks at kiddie porn (at absolute best).   He is not going to be asked to run a Bible study or join a gang.     

Actually, there are a handful of federal prisons that are semi-dedicated to housing sex offenders.  If they're a large enough group, they can be housed in GenPop and not need the extra expense of being in segregation.  Also, these prisons have special rehab programs.  There is no guarantee Josh will get assigned to one of these prisons, but it seems likely. 

[Snow Fairy]

How long do trials like this last? Will it last days or weeks?

I am so afraid that he will walk free

Edited November 25, 2021 by Snow Fairy

[Quilt Fairy]

Definitely more than one week, but probably less than two.  

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Definitely more than one week, but probably less than two.  

Yeah, didn't the prosecution say they needed 2-4 days? Not sure if the defense gave a range of days. Plus it looks like 2 days for jury selection.

[GeeGolly]

11/30 - 12/10 is 9 business days. I think the 10th would be the very earliest. Jury deliberations are so unpredictable, sometimes they come back in hours, but other times much longer, so I think its possible the trial will go into a third week.

[Jeeves]

36 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

11/30 - 12/10 is 9 business days. I think the 10th would be the very earliest. Jury deliberations are so unpredictable, sometimes they come back in hours, but other times much longer, so I think its possible the trial will go into a third week.

It's hard to predict trial lengths, but that sounds like a reasonable range if indeed they take 2 days for jury selection. A lot depends on how tight a ship the judge runs. I remember when the federal criminal trial of the Oklahoma City bomber was held here in Denver in 1997. The media hordes descended, of course, and apparently based on other famous trials that went on for many months, a lot of journalists thought they were going to be in Denver at least all summer. Heh. Judge Matsch didn't put up with bullsh*t and grandstanding from lawyers, he started the trial promptly on time each morning and it continued all day long, and to quote this CNN article, "That a verdict was reached barely two months after the trial began surprised most observers." Didn't surprise the Denver legal community. We were kinda used to judges who just get down to business and get things done. 

Smugs' case isn't a major criminal matter but as we know, there will be technical testimony and the defense has endorsed several witnesses. It might indeed take a couple of weeks. 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Actually, there are a handful of federal prisons that are semi-dedicated to housing sex offenders.  If they're a large enough group, they can be housed in GenPop and not need the extra expense of being in segregation.  Also, these prisons have special rehab programs.  There is no guarantee Josh will get assigned to one of these prisons, but it seems likely. 

Yep. Many many miles away from Arkansas.

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Jeeves said:

It's hard to predict trial lengths, but that sounds like a reasonable range if indeed they take 2 days for jury selection. A lot depends on how tight a ship the judge runs. I remember when the federal criminal trial of the Oklahoma City bomber was held here in Denver in 1997. The media hordes descended, of course, and apparently based on other famous trials that went on for many months, a lot of journalists thought they were going to be in Denver at least all summer. Heh. Judge Matsch didn't put up with bullsh*t and grandstanding from lawyers, he started the trial promptly on time each morning and it continued all day long, and to quote this CNN article, "That a verdict was reached barely two months after the trial began surprised most observers." Didn't surprise the Denver legal community. We were kinda used to judges who just get down to business and get things done. 

Smugs' case isn't a major criminal matter but as we know, there will be technical testimony and the defense has endorsed several witnesses. It might indeed take a couple of weeks. 

And the technical testimony may lengthen the jury deliberations, delaying the verdict.

[Dianaofthehunt]

Yep. Many many miles away from Arkansas.

Oh, I hope so! I want it to cost JimBoob and gang MANY MONEYS to fly over for a prison visit.

Oh heck, let me just say it: I want this whole trial to turn the patriarch’s pockets, accounts, and off-shore doings inside out and leave him broker than broke. I also want a thorough investigation of his LLC pyramids, and subsequent enormous fines.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Dianaofthehunt

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Yep. Many many miles away from Arkansas.

Oh, I hope so! I want it to cost JimBoob and gang MANY MONEYS to fly over for a prison visit.

I just looked and one is in North Carolina. Not far enough away!

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Oh, I hope so! I want it to cost JimBoob and gang MANY MONEYS to fly over for a prison visit.

Don't forget they have a couple of private planes in the family. 

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Don't forget they have a couple of private planes in the family. 

Will still cost more than a few $$$

[Tabbygirl521]

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I just looked and one is in North Carolina. Not far enough away!

Not sure if McNeil Island, WA is still open but that would be a good location for him. 

[ginger90]

5 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Not sure if McNeil Island, WA is still open but that would be a good location for him. 

I believe it’s state now, not federal.

[SusanM]

9 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Not sure if McNeil Island, WA is still open but that would be a good location for him. 

Is Guantanamo Bay still open?  I know he doesn't qualify for detention there but a girl can dream.

[louannems]

10 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Not sure if McNeil Island, WA is still open but that would be a good location for him. 

McNeil Island prison has been closed for many years.

As a child, I made many, many ferry crossings over to that prison to visit my uncle with my mom. He was imprisoned there for many years for making counterfeit money.  The FBI said it was some of the best they had seen.

While in prison, my uncle studied to be a lab technician and many years later, developed hepatitis from not wearing gloves while handling blood.  This was in the 1960's when gloves were not routinely used. He died of hepatitis but not until 2010.

 

 

[SnapHappy]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:17 AM, Jeeves said:

BTW, I enjoy imagining that Mr. R has been regularly sitting down with Josh for one-on-one Bible study sessions during Josh's release. Because I doubt Josh would enjoy those at all but isn't in a position to tell him no thanks. Heh.

Can we also imagine Mrs. Reber on the piano, pounding out with great vigor "What a Friend We Have In Jesus", in the background?  Over and over again?  During the very LONG study session?

[CandyCaneTree]

All Smuggar wants for Christmas is his freedom. 

[emmawoodhouse]

4 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

All Smuggar wants for Christmas is his freedom. 

That shouldn't be put out into space! 

Let him rot in jail over the holidays.

[Lady Jane]

On 11/23/2021 at 9:36 AM, hathorlive said:

They won't report him, but they don't live in a compound.  He will have "neighbors" even if they are 3 miles down the road.  And there always schools being built places.  And let's not forget the long arm of probation and parole officers.  They don't need a search warrant to look at his electronics.  And they do that on a regular basis.

 

On 11/23/2021 at 11:49 AM, Annb67 said:

So who do we call to report Josh violated his parole?

There is no federal parole. Federal convicts must serve 80% of their time if I recall. 

[tnvolgrl]

Longtime lurker. Please do not send that scum to my beautiful NC. Florence Super Max prison too much to ask? 

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, Lady Jane said:

 

There is no federal parole. Federal convicts must serve 80% of their time if I recall. 

Edited: Wow, this is a really strange topic.  So many contradictions and vague laws.  I know that monitoring software exists and is used for people on the registry.  I know that monitoring exists.  I know that Josh, having used the Internet to commit his crime, is one of the people at risk of not being allowed to used the Internet unmonitored, but I have no clue beyond that.

So there are no federal rules on computer usage for federal convictions of sex offenders.  However, there are many many restrictions that local and state sex offender registries put on people, post release, as well as different levels of sex offender registry.   I've not looked at it in a while but in the state I lived in, if you were on the registry, you were subject to  have monitoring software installed or having visits from police.  I'm not really sure what the results are today. I've not had a person released lately who has requested access to computers and the internet.  This is an interesting point for me to research.

Edited November 27, 2021 by hathorlive

[Lady Jane]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

Edited: Wow, this is a really strange topic.  So many contradictions and vague laws.  I know that monitoring software exists and is used for people on the registry.  I know that monitoring exists.  I know that Josh, having used the Internet to commit his crime, is one of the people at risk of not being allowed to used the Internet unmonitored, but I have no clue beyond that.

So there are no federal rules on computer usage for federal convictions of sex offenders.  However, there are many many restrictions that local and state sex offender registries put on people, post release, as well as different levels of sex offender registry.   I've not looked at it in a while but in the state I lived in, if you were on the registry, you were subject to  have monitoring software installed or having visits from police.  I'm not really sure what the results are today. I've not had a person released lately who has requested access to computers and the internet.  This is an interesting point for me to research.

INTERESTING. I shall research as well. Will be good to know as this trial gets going! (The things that lawyers find fascinating! We are a weird bunch.) 

[hathorlive]

3 minutes ago, Lady Jane said:

INTERESTING. I shall research as well. Will be good to know as this trial gets going! (The things that lawyers find fascinating! We are a weird bunch.) 

It's all over the place.  Just when I get a handle on it, I find another appeals court decision.  And I don't read legalese on a good day!  So there are like 12 states that passed laws attempting to add language to their sex offender laws restricting Internet usage, social network usage, and computer usage.  4 states had those laws ruled unconstitutional.   So, then there's the levels of the registry.  I guess level one is that you are a perv who didn't use a computer to be a perve. I would assume in Josh's case, that he's a higher level since he used a computer to download CP.  I really didn't appreciate the craziness of this area.  We need you lawyers to educate us!

[Lady Jane]

20 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

It's all over the place.  Just when I get a handle on it, I find another appeals court decision.  And I don't read legalese on a good day!  So there are like 12 states that passed laws attempting to add language to their sex offender laws restricting Internet usage, social network usage, and computer usage.  4 states had those laws ruled unconstitutional.   So, then there's the levels of the registry.  I guess level one is that you are a perv who didn't use a computer to be a perve. I would assume in Josh's case, that he's a higher level since he used a computer to download CP.  I really didn't appreciate the craziness of this area.  We need you lawyers to educate us!

Oh believe me, I've been out of law school long enough to know that I don't know shit about 99% of things outside my practice area, which is NOT criminal law!

Gawd, what I would give just to see the legal bills on this case... 

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, Lady Jane said:

Oh believe me, I've been out of law school long enough to know that I don't know shit about 99% of things outside my practice area, which is NOT criminal law!

Gawd, what I would give just to see the legal bills on this case... 

Based on the crazy forensic firm and the serious criminal lawyers from St. Louis, and the fact they are probably throwing peanuts at Travis Story, It has to be near 400K by now.  How much do these guys get paid to file motions?  And all the baby lawyers doing the grunt work?  Conservatively, it has to be at least 250K.

[BitterApple]

6 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Based on the crazy forensic firm and the serious criminal lawyers from St. Louis, and the fact they are probably throwing peanuts at Travis Story, It has to be near 400K by now.  How much do these guys get paid to file motions?  And all the baby lawyers doing the grunt work?  Conservatively, it has to be at least 250K.

Emily D Baker estimates they've spent around 500k thus far.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, BitterApple said:

Emily D Baker estimates they've spent around 500k thus far.

And per the summary I read on Reddit, she predicts they'll be out another 500K by the time it's over. I figured it was pricey, but that made me do a double take.

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

And per the summary I read on Reddit, she predicts they'll be out another 500K by the time it's over. I figured it was pricey, but that made me do a double take.

I'm not shocked.  It costs a lot of money to get that many people to contort logic to make you look innocent.  I'm sure the forensics alone are over 100K.  And that's for what, two or three devices? The phone, the HP, and the macbook?  And they never really said if they sent the phone off to GrayKey to be cracked.  Everything I've read said the good stuff from the phone came off the computer iTunes backup of his old iPhone.  Can you imagine if he had more devices?

[quarks]

At this point I believe Josh has at least four attorneys, correct? The two in Arkansas, who have both been named in court documents and appear to be responsible for the defense's major screw-up so far (and possibly a minor screw up depending upon what happens with the car lot records); the Missouri one (Justin Gelfand) who specializes in these cases and seems quite competent so far; and now this appeals specialist attorney who joined the team in November.

The Missouri firm also urges high profile cases - which this certainly is - to work with PR people. So that would be an added expense.

(Sidenote: interestingly enough the PR person their webpage currently recommends does not appear to be on the conservative side, religiously or politically. And she appears to have left PR this month to go work at TikTok.  When I read that, I couldn't help but picture her sitting in an office somewhere, happily doing PR work, until these Missouri attorneys contacted her and said "HEY, DO WE HAVE A CLIENT FOR YOU," and she said, eagerly enough, "WHO? WHO?" and ten minutes later was putting out job feelers. Almost certainly wrong, but fun speculation for a bit.)

Anyway, yeah, I would have to agree that the legal bills are certainly well up into the six figures by now, and will only jump up starting Tuesday.

[Quilt Fairy]

57 minutes ago, Zella said:

And per the summary I read on Reddit, she predicts they'll be out another 500K by the time it's over.

@Zella, can you provide a link to where this is on Reddit? 

[Zella]

18 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

@Zella, can you provide a link to where this is on Reddit? 

Here it is! There's not much more info on what she said--other than it came up in a Q & A rather than on a Duggar-specific video. Most of the discussion I saw is more geared to how the family is paying for it rather than the amount itself. 

 

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

Here it is! There's not much more info on what she said--other than it came up in a Q & A rather than on a Duggar-specific video. Most of the discussion I saw is more geared to how the family is paying for it rather than the amount itself. 

 

And yet, compared to the $2.5 million he dropped on Tony Orlando's old Branson theater earlier this year, it's apparently just a modest spend. 

JB's semi-sleazy car and real-estate businesses have done well by him, clearly. ... And, of course, he does have a lot of llcs for keeping his cash well away from the tax people, he lives in a free house and his 19 kids used to buy used shoes. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Churchhoney

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

And yet, compared to the $2.5 million he dropped on Tony Orlando's old Branson theater earlier this year, it's apparently just a modest spend. 

JB's semi-sleazy car and real-estate businesses have done well by him, clearly. ... And, of course, he does have a lot of llcs for keeping his cash well away from the tax people, he lives in a free house and his 19 kids used to buy used shoes. 

No college costs or nutritious meals to worry about either. Also, his kids worked for years without pay on a TV show while JB received the checks. 

[Absolom]

11 hours ago, hathorlive said:

Based on the crazy forensic firm and the serious criminal lawyers from St. Louis, and the fact they are probably throwing peanuts at Travis Story, It has to be near 400K by now.  How much do these guys get paid to file motions?  And all the baby lawyers doing the grunt work?  Conservatively, it has to be at least 250K.

I agree.  My daughter's estimate was a minimum of $250k and up to $500k depending on the motions, length of trial, etc.  She made her estimate a couple of months ago.

[GeeGolly]

The discussion on legal fees really highlights how unjust the justice system is. Imagine if Josh was poor and innocent.