Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[FakeJoshDuggar]

If it's not out of line to ask, are you a boy anon or a girl anon?

I forgot myself. But contrary to popular opinion, I'm a female.

[truthtalk2014]

Thank you for the extra details. It gives me a bit of hope knowing she drops the act when she isn't being filmed. I hope she has it in her to become a stark raving b1tch and really make his life miserable. for a while.  She should limit or have no wifi or cable and get rid of the smart phones for him. He can borrow one of the flip phones with no internet access from his Dad until he proves he won't abuse it. No computer= no porn addiction. My earlier recommendation for the super glue still stands! no problem with him straying then! ( I hope she does it) and keeps her countenance sweet while doing so!

I respectfully disagree.  That is way too much work for a wife.  If a married man can't keep it in his pants without being watched 24/7- to hell with him.  For someone that wants to do something, they will find a way.  Remember, Josh is 'sly'.  YUCK. 

 

I would much rather kick his greasy scummy being to the curb and hit him with a ruler any time I saw him trying to come back in my house.  

[Happyfatchick]

I'm glad Anna has a brother who wants to support her, and as interesting as it is for us to get the perspective from a sibling, I think he's an asshole for putting this on social media. The tabloids will get ahold of this and it'll get more media attention. Her parents certainly may be (selfishly) concerned about how it would reflect on them if she ever left Josh, but I think her brother is a jerk to be disrespectful to his parents by putting this out there. It's not a good look for the brother, IMO.

Oh, msblossom, I was heartbroken when I read your response to the brother's posts. I think you are so insightful, and I appreciate everything you post - but I'm all team Daniel on this one. Anna is completely ENGULFED by people who "know" what's best for her, and are happy to shout it from every available rooftop. They are hovering over her every move (probably chanting over her when she sleeps - if she sleeps). I imagine there's a Duggar (or other do-gooder) shadowing her every move. I can "see" Michelle standing outside the bathroom door with her lips to the crack saying, "forgive, Anna! That's what Jesus commanded us to do! Forgive!!! Seventy times seven!!! Forgiving and putting it behind you will GLORIFY GOD!!!" I can also see Anna sitting down to the computer with some Duggar hovering nearby (or blatantly looking over her shoulder!) saying, "whatcha doing, Anna? Are you emailing someone?" I'm thinking Anna has had NO time to regroup or evaluate her circumstances - and she doesn't really HAVE to, with so many people telling her what's the RIGHT thing to do.

So when I saw Daniels post, I practically jumped and down. I DO feel that he feels shut down. I'm sure her phone is being surreptitiously monitored, and he probably can't call. Couldn't talk freely if he DID call. He really, truly has no means to say, "hey SIS, I got your back!!!", IMO. Maybe he does, and I'm wrong. Even if he DID reach out to her on a personal level, I'm glad his posts got out. If he DIDN'T, someone will tell her. If he DID, someone will tell her. And THAT has to be a little bit empowering to Anna.

I'm just saying all this because in my own heart, if I'm Anna, I'm secretly warmed by the fact that my big brother didn't take it sitting down. If I'm Anna, the corners of my mouth lifted a little because he knows. He KNOWS what I'm going through right now, and he's using whatever unsavory and undignified methods he has to, just to let me know he cares.

On a personal note: Perhaps it was just a bit below-the-belt for his FB posts to get out - because as we know, the duggs would NEVER use a social media outlet to relay a message. (SNORT!!!). Even if we disagree on this issue, I love you msblossom!!!

[Julia]

I forgot myself. But contrary to popular opinion, I'm a female.

Oh, I didn't have an set opinion one way or the other. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making assumptions about who the Duggar boys pay special attention to at personal appearances :)

Edited August 25, 2015 by Julia

[cmr2014]

Thank you for the extra details. It gives me a bit of hope knowing she drops the act when she isn't being filmed. I hope she has it in her to become a stark raving b1tch and really make his life miserable. for a while.  She should limit or have no wifi or cable and get rid of the smart phones for him. He can borrow one of the flip phones with no internet access from his Dad until he proves he won't abuse it. No computer= no porn addiction. My earlier recommendation for the super glue still stands! no problem with him straying then! ( I hope she does it) and keeps her countenance sweet while doing so!

I kind of disagree with this. Josh is an adult. If he wants to look at porn, he should look at porn. If he wants to have sex with other women, he should do so. Anna's not his mom -- he's not a little boy.  The problem is that they don't have an honest relationship, and their entire marriage is based on a completely fake premise. Josh has never been honest about his sexuality with Anna -- what he likes and doesn't like. He has either not been honest, or Anna simply hasn't listened to him about their family size.

 

If Josh knows that Anna doesn't like him looking at porn, he has to decide if his marriage is more important to him than porn. If Anna thinks she can (or should) monitor him 24/7 to make sure he's not sneaking porn, they really don't have a marriage.

 

This is all irrelevant, though. They are back under the "umbrella" of JB now, and they aren't going anywhere. JB will cut off that internet, decide what kind of phone Josh gets, and make sure there is at least one "accountability partner" trailing him every second of the day.

[SometimesBites]

When the Duggars visited the trainer's friend's church (when Marcus' gender was eventually announced) you could clearly see non-sweet Anna. She had zero patience for being there and it was written all over her puss.

I think non-sweet Anna would be a natural outgrowth of being tethered to her greasy man-boy of a slime ball husband. Like pouring vinegar in a glass of cream...sours right up.

[DangerousMinds]

It seems that they follow the Old Testament rules for when intimacy is allowed, and as far as I remember sex during pregnancy is permitted.

But wouldn't that be "wasting seed?"

Also, Josh and Anna have a home separate from the TTH, right? So I hope Anna is there, NOT surrounded by others.

Edited August 25, 2015 by DangerousMinds

[Julia]

I kind of disagree with this. Josh is an adult. If he wants to look at porn, he should look at porn. If he wants to have sex with other women, he should do so. Anna's not his mom -- he's not a little boy.  The problem is that they don't have an honest relationship

WADR, I strenuously disagree. The problem is that Josh made an explicit deal with Anna that if she gave up self-determination and any possibility of being financially self-sufficient and allowed him to control her life completely and turn her into a poorly-dressed Real Doll™ which performs childcare, he would be monogamous and make sure they had enough money to support their household. If he didn't have that conversation before she made that deal, he has given up his right to have that conversation in perpetuity, JMO.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Julia

[SometimesBites]

WADR, I strenuously disagree. The problem is that Josh made an explicit deal with Anna that if she gave up self-determination and any possibility of being financially self-sufficient and allowed him to control her life completely and turn her into a poorly-dressed Real Doll™ which performs childcare, he would be monogamous and make sure they had enough money to support their household. If he didn't have that conversation before she made that deal, he has given up his right to have that conversation in perpetuity, JMO.

I would cheat on my husband with this comment, if I could. ;)

[graefin]

If Josh knows that Anna doesn't like him looking at porn, he has to decide if his marriage is more important to him than porn. If Anna thinks she can (or should) monitor him 24/7 to make sure he's not sneaking porn, they really don't have a marriage.

Given the fact that in their culture, looking at porn is viewed as a sin nearly equal (if not equal) to physical infidelity, I don't think whether Josh knows she doesn't "like" him looking at it is a valid question--it's a given. And since he looked at it anyway, according to this equation, we'd have to conclude that porn, in fact, was more important to him than their marriage. Since nearly every aspect of their behavior seems to be molded from outside forces, these people never truly learn "self-control" (even though the parents like to toss that phrase around) in their youths, so they also don't know how to exercise it in adulthood.

Edited August 25, 2015 by graefin

[farmgal4]

I've met Anna. It's not all sweetness, I assure you. She drops the milk and honey act when there's not a camera stuck in her face.

For some reason this makes me very happy.

[msblossom]

Oh, msblossom, I was heartbroken when I read your response to the brother's posts. I think you are so insightful, and I appreciate everything you post - but I'm all team Daniel on this one. Anna is completely ENGULFED by people who "know" what's best for her, and are happy to shout it from every available rooftop. They are hovering over her every move (probably chanting over her when she sleeps - if she sleeps). I imagine there's a Duggar (or other do-gooder) shadowing her every move. I can "see" Michelle standing outside the bathroom door with her lips to the crack saying, "forgive, Anna! That's what Jesus commanded us to do! Forgive!!! Seventy times seven!!! Forgiving and putting it behind you will GLORIFY GOD!!!" I can also see Anna sitting down to the computer with some Duggar hovering nearby (or blatantly looking over her shoulder!) saying, "whatcha doing, Anna? Are you emailing someone?" I'm thinking Anna has had NO time to regroup or evaluate her circumstances - and she doesn't really HAVE to, with so many people telling her what's the RIGHT thing to do.

So when I saw Daniels post, I practically jumped and down. I DO feel that he feels shut down. I'm sure her phone is being surreptitiously monitored, and he probably can't call. Couldn't talk freely if he DID call. He really, truly has no means to say, "hey SIS, I got your back!!!", IMO. Maybe he does, and I'm wrong. Even if he DID reach out to her on a personal level, I'm glad his posts got out. If he DIDN'T, someone will tell her. If he DID, someone will tell her. And THAT has to be a little bit empowering to Anna.

I'm just saying all this because in my own heart, if I'm Anna, I'm secretly warmed by the fact that my big brother didn't take it sitting down. If I'm Anna, the corners of my mouth lifted a little because he knows. He KNOWS what I'm going through right now, and he's using whatever unsavory and undignified methods he has to, just to let me know he cares.

On a personal note: Perhaps it was just a bit below-the-belt for his FB posts to get out - because as we know, the duggs would NEVER use a social media outlet to relay a message. (SNORT!!!). Even if we disagree on this issue, I love you msblossom!!!

I get it, HFC, I really do and I respect your opinion. I'm inclined to agree with every single one of your points on this, except that Daniel made it public. Why? Because it shows a lack of respect to his folks, I say this as someone who doesn't have the benefit of having her folks around anymore. There are many days I wish I could have just one more day with my parents, even if we didn't see eye to eye on things, and I guess that's what shapes my opinion on the subject. My family history is nothing like Daniel's and Anna's, but it was a pretty dysfunctional and sometimes very toxic and judgmental (and a rather lonely experience for me because I chose to live my life on my terms instead of living to please my parents). As much as I disagreed with them (and in turn rejected by them), I tried not to disrespect them -- even in my anger and pain. I realize I'm in the minority in my opinion -- I'm okay with that and I stand by it. For the record, I love you too and your posts are everything.❤️

[Chaos Theory]

From what I understand (and I might understand nothing because I did not watch the show and I know zero about Gothard but I am a good guesser) the failure of Josh and Anna's marriage is completely on Anna. The wife is obligated to keep her husband happy (which apparently she hasn't been) but the husband is not required or expected to return the favor.

Did I guess right?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[msblossom]

^^^Pretty much, Chaos Theory. Sucks to be a woman in Gothard's world.

[cheatincheetos]

It seems that they follow the Old Testament rules for when intimacy is allowed, and as far as I remember sex during pregnancy is permitted.  

Also in the OT, Jacob, Solomon and David had multiple wives and concubines.

Support ChickFilA and Throbby Lobby! Don't let the homersexuals end tradition: one woman, one man and his concubine!

 

http://40.media.tumblr.com/951650e5811a0af1693d9d5a933a7c6e/tumblr_noqeiih6yF1uwpdtmo1_500.png

[graefin]

Btw, there is a "toughguyy11" twitter account that people are claiming is registered to the same email address he used for his AM account. It's full of pretty hard-core porn. Is this what he was referencing in PR statement #1?

[Churchhoney]

I definitely don't believe that the church was in collusion with the hackers at all. What I am disturbed by is that someone who represents a denomination which is not even a little averse to hellfire-and-brimstone preaching about sexual sin gave men who broke the laws of God and men (again, according to their own reckoning) a get out of jail free card by blaming society and their wives when they knew that the specific offender all eyes were on screwed not only his wife but the entire community and leadership which defended him.

I have trouble not reading that as victim blaming in the service of, I'm sorry to say, more hypocrisy.

Mileage varies, of course.

eta:

 

 

 

Sorry about the hackers confusion. That was a joke. Of course they weren't in collusion with the hackers.

 

But having listened to the sermon, it was not in any way a sermon about Josh and Anna Duggar, in my opinion. Cheating on a spouse was mentioned in it, because it was literally a sermon listing every single thing that conservative Christians consider a sexual sin.

 

And he said that God wants both members of a couple to be careful to meet their partners' needs for sex and love, lest those partners stray. As I recall, he explicitly mentioned both male and female partners as the potential strayers, so the cheated-upon person could have as easily been a man as a woman, given the way I remember him putting it. However, he went on at far greater length about the person who actually does the cheating (or otherwise has sex outside of a marriage), calling what they do sin and immorality and saying that none of the things that people use as excuses are valid.

 

The cheaters were called immoral sinners with no excuse. He ran through a bunch of excuses people use -- like Don't I have the right to be happy? Don't I have the right to get my needs met? And he said, No, you don't if it means you're cheating or having a sexual relationship outside of marriage. So, while partners (and he didn't actually say wives) were told that God wants them to be sexual and loving toward their spouses because it makes their partners less likely to cheat, he also said that not getting your needs met does not excuse cheating.

 

Now, like a lot of people, I do have a problem with his saying anything at all about what the non-cheating partner should have done. Seems to me that it assumes people mainly cheat because their partners aren't assuaging their sexual desires. And I'd bet that maybe 10 to 15 percent of cheating happens solely for that reason, and the other 85 to 90 percent happens wholly or in large part for all kinds of other reasons. So mentioning it vastly oversimplifies cheating and thus ends up making people feel guilty for stuff that they never ever could have prevented, no matter what they did. So, yeah, I don't agree with that.

 

Nevertheless, I honestly don't know why anybody who listened to this sermon would ever think it presented some kind of message on Josh and Anna Duggar. It discussed a good dozen or more sexual issues. If the Ashley Madison thing hadn't happened this week, he could have given the exact same sermon and it's possible no one would even have noticed the cheating section.

 

It laid out pretty much the entire gamut of conservative Christian views of sex and sexual morality. And that worldview is male-centric as well as anti-LGBT. And it does boil a lot of things down to sex that probably shouldn't be boiled down to sex (in my opinion) -- such as the idea that meeting your spouse's sexual needs is a recipe for keeping your partner faithful. So to the extent that one considers that worldview and those ideas to be hypocritical, then it's a hypocritical sermon. But was it a hypocritical sermon that subliminally told us we should excuse Josh Duggar while side-eyeing Anna Duggar with blame, as Perez Hilton and a bunch of people on social media have been saying for the past couple days? I didn't hear anything that suggested that was even #117 on the list of the pastor's intentions.

 

And obviously some people listened to the sermon and got the impression that it was about the Duggars. But I haven't run across any accounts from people who say they actually listened to it yet, so I don't know what the full arguments for that are.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Churchhoney

[kathe5133]

Interesting..... I too am estranged from my immediate family because they thought they knew what was best for me and put it out on social media. It was, as they say, the straw that broke the camel's back and they are no longer part of my life. That is what rankles me about what Daniel did. Yes, Anna is sheltered and naive but she is a grown woman and a mother of 4. What she does is her business, nobody else's. Perhaps staying with him is a mistake, but it is her mistake to make. She should not be disparaged by her family members for any of her choices. What Daniel did seems to me to make sure we all knew how Daniel felt about this. How Daniel is not like his parents. How Daniel would handle. Fine talk for a brother to a sister, but this does not mean the world as such needs to get involved. "She won't listen" they say. She DOESN'T HAVE TOO! And Daniel's solution is not to respect her decision and offer what support is accepted, but it's to take the argument public and shame her further into "listening". Love does not equal "my way or the highway". Anna will do what Anna will do. Most likely some of us won't agree, and that is our right. But Anna has the right to live her life as she chooses.

[cereality]

Just read the People article that puts together Daniel Keller's posts on Jessa's IG - calling Josh a pig; saying he'd go get Anna and the kids and pay for them to live with him; saying that Anna isn't planning on leaving; and calling out his parents for being more interested in how divorce would look rather than thinking about their daughter.

 

Love it. So glad someone is being real and standing up. I hope Anna takes him up on it, but even if she doesn't -- at least she knows that if she does, she won't be completely alone -- she has 1 family member who supports her.

 

So has Daniel been shunned by his family? I assume he isn't fundie?

[mbutterfly]

That makes no sense; an annulment means that the two were never married.  But whatever, I don't want to get too far off topic.  At the end to the day it does not matter because Anna could not get an annulment under Arkansas law.  And it really, really does not matter because Anna won't leave that creep.  

I think because they were married in FL, they do not have a covenant marriage. 

[CofCinci]

Btw, there is a "toughguyy11" twitter account that people are claiming is registered to the same email address he used for his AM account. It's full of pretty hard-core porn. Is this what he was referencing in PR statement #1?

Any additional details?

[msblossom]

Wow.

What's right is right. There is no "disrespect" if what someone is doing is calling attention to parents who have thrown their children to the wolves.

I hope Daniel keeps posting. Also, my sympathy for Anna has run out.

OK, well I see things through a different lens I guess, Flowers and I'm getting called out for a difference of opinion, I'm sorry that it seems offensive to you -- right or wrong. Can we just agree to disagree? What's right is right" is subjective, IMO. And BTW, the only thing I have taken issue with is Daniel making public, otherwise we're on the same page.

[Churchhoney]

I respectfully disagree.  That is way too much work for a wife.  If a married man can't keep it in his pants without being watched 24/7- to hell with him.

 

I really agree with this. It's appropriate when you're dealing with kids to dole out responsibility to them slowly, while blocking their opportunities to get into some kinds of trouble until they're a bit older. But I don't consider that an adult's proper role with another adult.

 

Sure, I'm happy for a little bit of adult-to-adult accountability stuff, in which you help a spouse or friend or they help you by checking up on one specific issue, like procrastination or getting to bed on time or something. But to put yourself in the position of essentially having to raise an adult partner who apparently can't handle any kind of responsibility or restraint? No thanks.

 

I'd tell Josh that he could move into his own place, get a therapist and work toward being a responsible adult on his own. And when he's learned it, then maybe he could come back.

[graefin]

Any additional details?

About what? The content? I can't verify what email address is linked to the account because I don't know how. But you can look it up on twitter and see for yourself (before it gets deleted?).

[farmgal4]

"Fargone" should be added to Webster's "great new words" list.  It can be used as an adjective or a noun. For etymology see Duggar, Josh. Here are some contextual examples of proper use:

                                                                         * * *

Anna would never again allow herself to be poked by the Pillsbury No More Dough Boy. Even her love for their once great hand sex was fargone. Now she knew what kind of Family Research those fleshy paws had been up to. Apparently, it wasn’t fargone enough for him that he’d molested his own sisters. (That thought alone made her want to blister her Headship’s nuts with burning Tater Tots. And send shivs to the prisoners counseled by her father, the man who pushed her toward the SuperFund Site called Josh despite the fact he knew his future SIL had already been measured for a wardrobe of orange jumpsuits.)

 

But now Josh had gone exponentially fargone, taking 10 years worth of her cookie jar change to surf porn sites for tall, short, blonde, brunette and bald tarts (and men posing as tarts). Women who wore jeans and lingerie and immodest swimwear and liked to lounge in bubble baths chocked full of sex toys.

 

For over 30 minutes now Anna had been shuttling the kids' stuff out to the car. And Josh, sitting on the sofa with his laptop, was eating a large sandwich and hadn’t looked up once. But Anna's Gothardette days were done.

 

"Bye, asshat. This help-meet is fargone."

 

Josh hadn't even realized she was there. Startled, he slammed the lid of the laptop down. Shit. Had she caught sight of the brand new account he'd just opened as "Smith_The_Man Joeson" at Ashley Madison? She wasn’t smiling. Or even looking at him. That was weird.

 

"Is something wrong, honey?" The sippy cup of sweet tea he’d wedged between the cushions tipped over, wetting his crotch and the bottom of his new iPrey shirt.

 

"You're fargone," she spat back. Anna flung the front door open and bounced the red wagon that held her four kiddos down the stairs. She rolled them toward the car, and, one-by-one, loaded them inside. The need to face her husband was so strong, so Pavlovian, nearly irresistible. Yet Anna looked only at her children as Josh, who hadn't yet bothered to get up from the sofa, stared through the open door at the back of his wife's head.

 

"Fargone like my love for you,” she screamed. “Fargone like your waistline."

 

Now Josh stood. And the Reuben and the plate it was on tumbled to the floor. He stopped chewing just long enough to watch Anna drive off, all four of his children in tow.

"God damn. God fucking damn it! Josh dropped to his knees, then crumpled forward. But with a little luck he could still get most of the pastrami and sauerkraut back on the rye. Maybe lunch wasn't fargone after all.

Hundfan, I don't know what you do for a living, but if you're not writing in some capacity, you have missed your calling IMO. OMG! You have outdone yourself this time, Hundfan!! You are hella awesome, and I'm your biggest fan! xoxoxoxoxo

[SometimesBites]

About what? The content? I can't verify what email address is linked to the account because I don't know how. But you can look it up on twitter and see for yourself (before it gets deleted?).

Well, if it's Josh, there's a strong MILF-y vibe going there. Could have lived to 112 and never needed to know that.

[HundFan]

Thanks, farmgal4, that's so sweet of you to say. I used to write romance novels, but it was hard to do funny Vikings, so I wandered off after publishing three books for Warner. I'm working on more humor-themed stuff now and this forum is such a guilty pleasure when I should be doing other things. All the sharp minds here make for a no-nonsense intellectual parcourse! 

Edited August 25, 2015 by HundFan

[3girlsforus]

 

 

Sure, I'm happy for a little bit of adult-to-adult accountability stuff, in which you help a spouse or friend or they help you by checking up on one specific issue, like procrastination or getting to bed on time or something. But to put yourself in the position of essentially having to raise an adult partner who apparently can't handle any kind of responsibility or restraint? No thanks.

 

 

I completely agree. Sure accountability has its place in some situations. Like AA members have a sponsor - someone to call on when they are feeling tempted. But no one would ever find it appropriate for a spouse (or a parent) to be in that role. 

[Tabbygirl521]

Random thought: so God and/or Jesus will forgive deliberate sins and mistakes as long as you repent. But you're SOL if you (even as a sheltered, naive teen) make an honest mistake and marry someone who turns out to be unsuitable or incompatible. Or even worse, your stupid dad chose the guy, so it is HIS error. Sorry, Anna. Suck it up.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[3girlsforus]

I kind of disagree with this. Josh is an adult. If he wants to look at porn, he should look at porn. If he wants to have sex with other women, he should do so. Anna's not his mom -- he's not a little boy.  The problem is that they don't have an honest relationship, and their entire marriage is based on a completely fake premise. Josh has never been honest about his sexuality with Anna -- what he likes and doesn't like. He has either not been honest, or Anna simply hasn't listened to him about their family size.

 

 

I disagree that Josh can just do what he wants because he's an adult. If he wanted to look at porn and have sex with multiple women then it should not have gotten married. I know the view of looking at porn varies but I'd wager that nearly everyone on this board would agree that when you get married you are agreeing to not have sex with other people. Whether or not Josh was able to 'close the deal' with someone or not isn't really relevant. He was definitely trying to have sex with other people. Married people aren't supposed to do that. As far as the porn stuff goes, while many of us may view that as ok, it is absolutely clear that 'sure you can look at porn' was not something they agreed to. If Josh still wants to do those things he needs to leave Anna. 

[JenCarroll]

Since Josh is his own headship (ugh, that term), why would he have to submit to a chaperone, giving up his computers, etc? On whose authority? Threat of excommunication from the pretend church? I don't get it.

He needs to stop thinking with his little headship. :-)

[Chai]

Interesting..... I too am estranged from my immediate family because they thought they knew what was best for me and put it out on social media. It was, as they say, the straw that broke the camel's back and they are no longer part of my life. That is what rankles me about what Daniel did. Yes, Anna is sheltered and naive but she is a grown woman and a mother of 4. What she does is her business, nobody else's. Perhaps staying with him is a mistake, but it is her mistake to make. She should not be disparaged by her family members for any of her choices. What Daniel did seems to me to make sure we all knew how Daniel felt about this. How Daniel is not like his parents. How Daniel would handle. Fine talk for a brother to a sister, but this does not mean the world as such needs to get involved. "She won't listen" they say. She DOESN'T HAVE TOO! And Daniel's solution is not to respect her decision and offer what support is accepted, but it's to take the argument public and shame her further into "listening". Love does not equal "my way or the highway". Anna will do what Anna will do. Most likely some of us won't agree, and that is our right. But Anna has the right to live her life as she chooses.

Free will is what God gave everyone and the one thing I noticed the Duggars gave to no one.

[Chicklet]

Note to Hundfan, I would SO read your funny Vikings.

[Anne Elk]

Anna's going to be busy enough raising her own kids; she doesn't need the burden of retroactively raising a kid Jim Bob and Michelle apparently couldn't be bothered to raise themselves. Especially when he's supposed to be her husband and headship. 

 

Unfortunately I don't think Josh is going to be able to keep his hand out of the cookie jar (literally and figuratively) if someone isn't watching him like a hawk. But that's not Anna's job. If she does it he's just going to resent her, she'll resent him, and whatever feelings may actually exist between them will die. And it's not Jim Bob's job or Michelle's or any of the million other Duggars. Josh is an adult now. What Josh needs is a counselor who will sit him down and force him to learn how to make good choices and control his impulses. They're out there, but probably not approved by the Gothards.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Anne Elk

[xls]

Anna's brother slams Josh on FB

http://www.etonline.com/news/170563_anna_duggar_brother_daniel_keller_slams_josh_duggar/

[kokapetl]

It's not necessary in the Baptist church, because the Baptist church recognizes divorce as valid, in most cases. The Catholic Church doesn't consider divorce a sin at all; remarrying without an annulment is adultery, because the Church doesn't recognize civil divorce as having done anything at all spiritually. You might as well still be married, as far as they're concerned. In most Baptist churches I've attended, the divorce itself is treated as an act of adultery, but it is recognized as spiritually valid. In the strictest churches, you might have to repent for your divorce. In my church, it is treated like every other sin, between you and God, and in most cases, you're allowed to remarry without any real trouble. It's hard to say anything about what "the Baptist church" teaches, though, because Baptist churches are only associated by choice; there is no real hierarchy, session, presbytery, whatever to appeal to. You can be dropped from an association if your church goes way off, but you can still call yourself Baptist.

Keep in mind that ATI is a parachurch organization, and that the members belong to different churches. My friend is a member of a Reformed Presbyterian church, and they've dealt with Gothardites. Her church is WAY more conservative than mine, but even they think ATI is weird. And the non-denominational Bible church I attended in college had ATI members as part of the church. Josh and Anna aren't really Baptist in the sense that say, I am. I belong to, and pay tithes to, and work in ministries at, a Baptist church. The Duggars don't seem to have any accountability outside of their own family.

Is there any "acceptable" way for Anna to get out of this marriage besides waiting for Josh to have his heart attack at 35?

[LilyoftheValley]

JMO over here but it seems clear that what Josh needs is a divorce and to be a single.  If, as a single man without any pressure from outside influences, he decides on his own accord that he wants to be a decent human being, then more power to him.  Maybe after that he and Anna can reconcile.  But it is just so obvious that the married quiverful lifestyle is not for him.  Why should his wife and family and even Josh (yeah I went there) suffer through years of beating a dead horse?  It makes no sense to me.  

[Fuzzysox]

Is there any "acceptable" way for Anna to get out of this marriage besides waiting for Josh to have his heart attack at 35?

Bet she is letting him have as many donut burgers as he wants.

[Chicklet]

If I were Anna I'd rapidly increase his intake of saturated fats and carbs and keep at it until he explodes one way or the other.

[Saint TV]

I've heard that vigorous sex, when combined with a steady diet of saturated fats and carbs and seasoned with high levels of tension, can result in exploding heart syndrome. Plus, Anna might get pregnant.

Win, win.

[3girlsforus]

Is there any "acceptable" way for Anna to get out of this marriage besides waiting for Josh to have his heart attack at 35?

 

Biblically sexual immorality is grounds for divorce. So if they are telling Anna that she has to stay with him because that's what Jesus wants, they need to open the Bible again. (or maybe for the first time considering their warped beliefs)

[JayInChicago]

I really wish people here would stop using Josh's fatness as though it's part and parcel of him being a bad person.  Fat people aren't bad people.  Bad people are bad people, and it's pretty clear that Josh is one.

When you mock someone's size, what you are really saying is "I hate fat people." 

[leighroda]

Gothard has some pretty stringent rules about when a couple can't have sex:

This doesn't leave a ton of opportunities.

Even if Anna greeted Josh at the door every evening wearing a Playboy bunny outfit, I guarantee this would still have happened.

I didn't know about the 7 days after a period, that's crazy. Who plans sex out like that!? What do they do if the mood just strikes them? Do they have to stop and whip out a calendar and make sure it's been 7 days? Do they have alarms on their phone to let them know they are in the clear?

[sleekandchic]

I truly believe some people are not meant to be married -- not cut out for the monogamous life, especially at a young age with very litlle sexual experience.

Josh strikes me as a guy longing for sexual experience, experimentation and variety. Like lots of guys of my generation, if marriage is a goal, it's not a goal until 30 to 35.

Because of the Gothard-cult insanity, Josh's autonomy and independence over his sex life and female companionship were usurped.

I feel sorry for Josh to a slight extent. But his hateful bigotry toward his fellow humans, based on such a stringent, myopic, unyielding view of others, is wrong and unacceptable to me. He has free will. He doesnt have to accept the party line, unconditionally and oh so fervently.

Maybe Josh and Anna can move beyond the infidelities, lies, subterfuge, hypocrisy, betrayal. I know I could never forgive or move beyond shit like that. First, I'd get devastated; then, I'd move on to my next guy. 1.2.3! Big difference is, I guess, my parents fostered independent thinking.

I cannot imagine being locked into ONE accepted way of living. God forbid if one of us Swedes had brown eyes! Off to the EYE-DYE salon.

The Duggars remind me of The Eye of the Beholder episode from the Twilight Zone. Newsflash: one size does not fit all. Let your kids be independent thinkers, true to their authentic selves.

[cmr2014]

I disagree that Josh can just do what he wants because he's an adult. If he wanted to look at porn and have sex with multiple women then it should not have gotten married. I know the view of looking at porn varies but I'd wager that nearly everyone on this board would agree that when you get married you are agreeing to not have sex with other people. Whether or not Josh was able to 'close the deal' with someone or not isn't really relevant. He was definitely trying to have sex with other people. Married people aren't supposed to do that. As far as the porn stuff goes, while many of us may view that as ok, it is absolutely clear that 'sure you can look at porn' was not something they agreed to. If Josh still wants to do those things he needs to leave Anna. 

I don't know that I expressed myself well. I am not implying that married people should be trolling porn sites, and it's okay because they are adults. And, I do agree that Josh should leave Anna. I think he has been dishonest with her from the start, and I don't think they have a real marriage -- a contract implies a meeting of the minds that I don't think they have.

 

I think that Josh entered into this marriage pretending that he bought into all the Gothard stuff: a dozen kids, homeschooling, a wife who keeps her knees and elbows covered at all times out of "modesty," etc. I don't think he wants any of that. He has said multiple times that he only wants 2-3 kids, and everyone saw the look on his face when Anna announced #4. He has mentioned multiple times that he wanted to be a lawyer -- I don't recall him ever saying that he wanted to run a car lot and live under his father's "umbrella" forever.The profiles that he has posted show a very ordinary guy with very ordinary desires -- maybe he simply wants to enjoy sex with a person who's interested rather than simple performing her wifely duty.

 

I think that Anna buys into the Gothard playbook 100%. Her job is to pop out babies, homeschool them with official Gothard doctrine, and be available for sex whenever Josh is in the mood. I think that she has become more and more aware of Josh's preferences over the years, but she doesn't care. I don't think she's interested in compromise or loosening up on the Gothard dogma, and she doesn't have to be, She is playing the game that she signed on to play, but that's not a marriage.

 

Josh is a liar and a cheater, and I wouldn't want to be married to him for 5 minutes, but I was responding to a post that included a laundry list of surveylence measures that Anna should employ to keep Josh on the straight and narrow.Anna can't, and shouldn't be expected to, monitor him 24/7 -- I don't know what that is, but it's not a marriage. If they want to be married, they need to figure out how to communicate their wants and needs to each other, compromise where they can, and prioritize one another's feelings the way that most normal married people do.

 

Personally, I don't think that Josh wants to follow Gothard at all, and I think that Anna is all-in, I think that for Anna following the Gothard rules is an imperative for her soul and will take precedent over her marriage and the desires of her husband. if their desires are that far apart, I think that they are better off apart.

[LilyoftheValley]

At the end of the day, we can go back forth about what Josh and Anna both should or should not do, but I think that the elephant in the room has been screaming one thing over and over again this entire time: Josh and Anna simply are not a good match.

[Wellfleet]

How dumb can you be to use your job or personal e mail

 

Totally agree. We are 20+ years into an online society for "virtually" - sorry I couldn't resist - everything. I can't believe people are still using personal e-mails, and even more incredibly their work e-mails, for so many computer activities. At my university we were required to attend mandatory digital self-defense classes. We were sent alerts all the time about the latest scams and phishing attempts etc, and were reminded on a regular basis about policy regarding university computing. I had a terrible time getting one of my sisters - a firm believer in chain letters - to quit sending those to me. Even innocent little chain letters were frowned on. I paid attention though - because I was terrified of getting on the wrong kind of lists and finding myself being inundated with crap, porn - or worse - constantly.

[Wellfleet]

Not to mention parents who force you to stay because to divorce would make THEM look like failures. 

 

Yes. I don't think this can be overemphasized. Both sets of parents are humiliated in a major way here, within the Gothard community and beyond. Set apart even in their own "set-apart" world. And so close on the heels of Molester Gate. I'd love to know if Boob and Me-chelle have left the compound since the news became public. Since they know only such a small set of people, where could they go? Do any of their many vehicles have those special black-tinted Presidential motorcade windows? If not, I guess Me-chelle has been assigning someone to a daily Starbucks run.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Wellfleet

[LilyoftheValley]

Yes. I don't think this can be overemphasized. Both sets of parents are humiliated in a major way here, within the Gothard community and beyond. Set apart even in their own "set-apart" world. And so close on the heels of Molester Gate. I'd love to know if Boob and Me-chelle have left the compound since the news became public. Since they know only such a small set of people, where could they go? Do any of their many vehicles have those special black-tinted Presidential motorcade windows? If not, I guess Me-chelle has been assigning someone to a daily Starbucks run.

This is the real issue here.  This whole nonsense about forgiveness and repentance and being a Godly man again is nothing more than face-saving.  The Duggars and Kellers are completely humiliated that despite having screamed from the hilltops that they have child-rearing all figured out, that they actually produce a completely rotten product on occasion.  Mark my words, this will not be the last time we hear of a "fallen" Duggar.

[muffkins]

kathe5133, on 24 Aug 2015 - 6:14 PM, said:

 

Interesting..... I too am estranged from my immediate family because they thought they knew what was best for me and put it out on social media. It was, as they say, the straw that broke the camel's back and they are no longer part of my life. That is what rankles me about what Daniel did. Yes, Anna is sheltered and naive but she is a grown woman and a mother of 4. What she does is her business, nobody else's. Perhaps staying with him is a mistake, but it is her mistake to make. She should not be disparaged by her family members for any of her choices. What Daniel did seems to me to make sure we all knew how Daniel felt about this. How Daniel is not like his parents. How Daniel would handle. Fine talk for a brother to a sister, but this does not mean the world as such needs to get involved. "She won't listen" they say. She DOESN'T HAVE TOO! And Daniel's solution is not to respect her decision and offer what support is accepted, but it's to take the argument public and shame her further into "listening". Love does not equal "my way or the highway". Anna will do what Anna will do. Most likely some of us won't agree, and that is our right. But Anna has the right to live her life as she chooses.

I don't see it as him "putting it out in public on social media" He is responding to a post by Josh's sister that basically says "forgive Josh, he's repented and god wants you to."  He didn't call Anna names, say she was stupid or attack her in anyway.  He did all that to Josh.  He just put it out there that she and her children have a place to go if they need it, and he is willing to cover all the costs, or even come get them.  He is putting it out there that she has choices on what to do.  He also said she has chosen not to take him up on this.  At no point did I get the feeling from him that he is calling her out over anything.  The only reason it is showing up publicly is that Josh's sisters' page is public, not him.

Edited August 25, 2015 by muffkins