Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Skittl1321]

Maybe Josh should try GOING to college first.  Then advising one on how to run itself.

[galax-arena]

Wow.  It's hard to believe that Smuggs is on any board of any institute of higher learning--accredited or not.

Right? I feel like I've gone through the looking glass.

 

Josh is on the board of a (bogus) institute of higher learning. What a time to be alive.  

[JoanArc]

Being on the board usually means he gets to sit though lunch, a powerpoint, and a speech by the CEO, then nods and collects his paycheck. it looks like being a celeb got him another job. EDIT: Pat Boone's on it too. lol.

 

WTH is Joe are Clown College is Josh is 'working' here?

 

Edit 2: they have some kind of connection to Arkansas, so I guess Josh was a natural fit.

Edited May 8, 2015 by JoanArc

[Sew Sumi]

Maybe Josh should try GOING to college first.  Then advising one on how to run itself.

IKR??? Did you check out his bio? Aside from talking about Boob's failed run for the Senate, Josh's bio information is stretched to the point of incredulity. 

 

And yes, I mentioned Pat Boone in my first post. This "board" is worse than anything Clown College could ever dream of. I wonder how much $$$ changed hands to get $muggar this position?

[Wellfleet]

Maybe Josh should try GOING to college first.  Then advising one on how to run itself.

 

LOL, this is so true. However JoanArc is 100% right. Josh is a name on a piece of paper here - nothing more. He puts on a suit, shows for the annual meeting and collects a paycheck. That's it. And he has to rake in all the $$ he can right now, because in his case, the red light is blinking. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether it ends, as the saying goes, with a bang or a whimper.

[zenme]

Maybe that's the same school that the Dullards will allow Izzy to attend.

 

Edited to change Dullard's to Dullards.  (If I'm criticizing this school of higher learning I should at least get the spelling, apostrophes, etc., correct!)

Edited May 8, 2015 by zenme

[HundFan]

I didn't used to like Anna much (and she still has some obvious problems, like insatiable baby craving), but her emerging sense of humor is cute and appealing. Her comment and wink-wink expression re Boob and Michelle's PDA - "They love each other. A LOT" -- had me laughing. The timid little mouse Josh married would never have dared that comedic jab at the King and Queen. I think there might be hope for her head, if not her uterus.

Edited May 8, 2015 by HundFan

[JenCarroll]

Is his name not actually Joshua? Cause in the real world, we grown-ups generally use our formal names for thing like, say, serving on a Board of Directors. Of course, in the real world, people like Josh Duggar don't actually serve on the Boards of institutions of higher learning.

[Sew Sumi]

Well, keep in mind that this "institution of higher learning" is pretty much a sham created to take unsuspecting fundies' money. 

[JoanArc]

It looks designed to churn out people that want a degree so they can work in a church setting. That's nice, but it's still a scam.

 

I wonder how much federal money they get? After the recent Corinthian Colleges bust, I'd be nervous this place could be shut down.

 

And yes, Jencarroll, his full name is Joshua. Josh must be his stage name. ;)

[Seashell Lover]

Maybe I should pay them money so I can say that I am on a educamation bord at a college.

[riverblue22]

I looked at the directions to that college and they mentioned going through Tontitown.  So it is very close to the Duggars.  I suppose this is a new moneymaking possibility for the Gothard folks who don't want to work for other people.  I'd be interested in the qualifications of the professors.

[becca3891]

I was thinking more about Derick's saying Iz might go to college and all that. Yes we can hope and dream, but doesn't that mean they are going to need to pretty seriously limit the size of their family?  Or is it only going to be Iz who gets that chance, and when they run out of money to send future kids to college, those kids are out of luck? I know families that struggle to get 2 or 3 kids through college. They sure as heck aren't going to be able to send 15 or 20.

 

I have two siblings and we were all expected to pay our own way through college, with scholarships, student loans and money we had saved from working. My parents are upper middle class but never felt they were obligated to pay for college, and I knew others in the same boat. So if the Dillards did have 15-20 kids and didn't put them through college, in no way would that mean they couldn't go. We all know money is not the reason why none of the Duggars so far has attended college. It's because thinking for yourself is very dangerous in their world.

 

And wow, that "college" with Josh on the board is a complete joke. I thought Bob Jones "University" was laughable but it is practically Ivy League in comparison to this.

Edited May 9, 2015 by becca3891

[Sew Sumi]

I looked at the directions to that college and they mentioned going through Tontitown.  So it is very close to the Duggars.  I suppose this is a new moneymaking possibility for the Gothard folks who don't want to work for other people.  I'd be interested in the qualifications of the professors.

A poster at FJ who is a Gothard survivor says that she has family/acquaintences who either attended/teach there. She said that some teacher don't even have college degrees! I can't even imagine, but I guess Ben looks at a place like this and the decision to leave college behind becomes easier. Hell, he could teach at this place some day! As could Josh. 

 

Kill me now. 

[Cherrio]

Maybe I should pay them money so I can say that I am on a educamation bord at a college.

I think you mean collage.  :)

[Andalusian]

Is his name not actually Joshua? Cause in the real world, we grown-ups generally use our formal names for thing like, say, serving on a Board of Directors. Of course, in the real world, people like Josh Duggar don't actually serve on the Boards of institutions of higher learning.

 

Well, I guess you're right -- Josh isn't as formal as Winkie there.  ;)

Edited May 9, 2015 by Andalusian

[JenCarroll]

Well, I guess you're right -- Josh isn't as formal as Winkie there.  ;)

Did you check out that guy's web page? I think it's entirely possible that Winkie is a very formal name on his home planet.

[Wellfleet]

Did you check out that guy's web page? I think it's entirely possible that Winkie is a very formal name on his home planet.

 

No kidding - oy! Home planet is right. This website has an outer space background - I wonder if it's deliberate - or a happy accident? Not to mention that Winkie - actually William - is quite the busy fellow selling himself. Tabs across the top include Store and Donate. It's always comes down to $$$ with these people.

[Ljohnson1987]

An hour jender reveal for Anna? Boring! Psst... Sierra. We already know that it's a girl.

[BitterApple]

An hour jender reveal for Anna? Boring! Psst... Sierra. We already know that it's a girl.

Aww come on, aren't you the least bit curious to see what sort of low-rent event Sierra puts on for the jender reveal? It's amazing how Venessa put on a cute baby shower for Jill, Cathy and Guinn did a great job with the rehearsal dinners but "event planner" Sierra has been an absolute disaster.

[Wellfleet]

Aww come on, aren't you the least bit curious to see what sort of low-rent event Sierra puts on for the jender reveal? It's amazing how Venessa put on a cute baby shower for Jill, Cathy and Guinn did a great job with the rehearsal dinners but "event planner" Sierra has been an absolute disaster.

 

Sierra is an "event planner" in her own mind - only.

[Micks Picks]

The only kind of gender reveal I'm remotely interested in is someday saying, "it's a boy" "it's a girl" or "we don't want to know until the birth.  We want to be surprised"

[Literata]

I'm dreading the announcement that this little girl is going to be named Michelle. I think it's a certainty. But I do wonder if that might motivate MEchelle to take some grandmotherly interest.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Literata

[allonsyalice]

I'm dreading the announcement that this little girl is going to be named Michelle. I think it's a certainty. But I do wonder if that might motivate MEchelle to take some grandmotherly interest.

I'm gonna take my reply to this one to the michelle/jim bob thread.

[NikSac]

Didn't they start the whole "M name" thing to "honor" Michelle, or did I just read that somewhere and it may not be true? If so do they really have to ALSO name one of the kids Michelle?

[DangerousMinds]

Do they realize that it's actually a reveal of the baby's sex, not gender? I hate continuing to hear this term used.

[Literata]

Didn't they start the whole "M name" thing to "honor" Michelle, or did I just read that somewhere and it may not be true? If so do they really have to ALSO name one of the kids Michelle?

I'm speculating Michelle is the next name for parity. Michael is Michael James after both their dads; I'm guessing it's time for Michelle Suzette for the same reason.

[Literata]

If so do they really have to ALSO name one of the kids Michelle?

 

I'm no MEchelle fan, certainly, but I wouldn't be all that bothered if they named a baby after her because of all the kids, Smuggar seems to have the most genuine relationship with his mom. I actually have enjoyed watching their interactions.

 

From kissing him on the top of his head when Anna was having MacKynzie to his reaction when MEchelle gave birth to Josie to MEchelle's genuine sadness when he moved to DC, we've seen moments of actual emotion between the two of them. Smuggar's relationship with Boob seems more burdened with competition and other weird kinds of things, but he truly seems to love his mom. Also, judging from the "MEchelle's Family Reunion" episode, Smuggar seemed to have a relationship with MEchelle's dad as well.

 

I often think aside from the specialness of the mother/first child bond, their relationship is different because he was the child she likely wanted simply because she wanted a baby, not because she felt "purposed" to populate God's army.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Literata

[yogi2014L]

I'm no MEchelle fan, certainly, but I wouldn't be all that bothered if they named a baby after her because of all the kids, Smuggar seems to have the most genuine relationship with his mom. I actually have enjoyed watching their interactions.

 

From kissing him on the top of his head when Anna was having MacKynzie to his reaction when MEchelle gave birth to Josie to MEchelle's genuine sadness when he moved to DC, we've seen moments of actual emotion between the two of them. Smuggar's relationship with Boob seems more burdened with competition and other weird kinds of things, but he truly seems to love his mom. Also, judging from the "MEchelle's Family Reunion" episode, Smuggar seemed to have a relationship with MEchelle's dad as well.

 

I often think aside from the specialness of the mother/first child bond, their relationship is different because he was the child she likely wanted simply because she wanted a baby, not because she felt "purposed" to populate God's army.

I agree that the bond between Michelle and Josh is different . I do think Josh also has a lot of resentment towards both his parents and I think if they did name the 4th baby Michelle it would be to get on the cover of People mag and for that reason only

[Cherrio]

I think the name will be Meconium Michelle.   The nickname will be Fulla.

[JoanArc]

http://2paragraphs.com/2015/05/josh-and-anna-duggar-fake-surprise-about-fourth-baby/

 

 

Josh just keeps reading from the cue cards.

 

They're terrible actors.

[Wellfleet]

IMO, the longer Josh is at FRC, the more he's realizing what his parents have done to him - and all his siblings. I think there's a growing amount of resentment. Frankly I'd be really surprised if Baby Four is named Me-chelle. However, I'm continually surprised at what they'll do to remain in the public eye, even in the D-list way they do, so it definitely could happen.

[GEML]

IMO, the longer Josh is at FRC, the more he's realizing what his parents have done to him - and all his siblings. I think there's a growing amount of resentment. Frankly I'd be really surprised if Baby Four is named Me-chelle. However, I'm continually surprised at what they'll do to remain in the public eye, even in the D-list way they do, so it definitely could happen.

I agree with this. He's learning not only about the education deprivation, but also that family values actually mean something to a lot of parents who really did put their lives on hold to do more than churn out children.

However, I think he also is one of the only children who does have a real relationship with his mother. And he knows that. And that is a burden he will bear. Most people think it's easy to be a parent's favorite child, but it's not.

[Wellfleet]

I agree with this. He's learning not only about the education deprivation, but also that family values actually mean something to a lot of parents who really did put their lives on hold to do more than churn out children.

However, I think he also is one of the only children who does have a real relationship with his mother. And he knows that. And that is a burden he will bear. Most people think it's easy to be a parent's favorite child, but it's not.

 

Agree about Josh being the only child with a real relationship with Me-chelle. Isn't it interesting that the oldest Duggar child, who very likely received the least - if any -  amount of Gothard influence over his earliest years, is the one with the most real relationship? Hmmmm. Hey Duggars, maybe it's just possible that old, never-been-married, not-trained-in-psychology, never-raised-a-child Bill got a few other things wrong as well?

[GEML]

I don't think Josh had the least Gothard - and he's thus far the only one who has married from within the community. The youngest children won't have any Gothard upbringing at all, by the time it's all over. But he's the only one who had individual time with his parents, and still would have had considerable time for his most formative years. By the time even Jessa was born, the babies were coming fast and furiously and there wasn't much time for one on one bonding.

But Bill Gothard got a LOT of things wrong!

[Literata]

I don't think Josh had the least Gothard

 

I don't think MEchelle and Boob were hardcore when he was born; wasn't she still wearing pants then? And maybe even working as a real estate agent? Maybe I'm a little off here, but I was thinking Smuggar was able to enjoy a couple years of relative normalcy.

[GEML]

I think he did when he was little. But he also had the most poverty and the most hardcore years of his parents. (As did his older siblings.). His adolescence was TOTALLY Gothard in a way the middle children's will not be, for instance, and the younger children may have an upbringing that looks almost mainstream Southern Baptist by the time they are teenagers.

[Wellfleet]

I don't think Josh had the least Gothard - and he's thus far the only one who has married from within the community. The youngest children won't have any Gothard upbringing at all, by the time it's all over. But he's the only one who had individual time with his parents, and still would have had considerable time for his most formative years. By the time even Jessa was born, the babies were coming fast and furiously and there wasn't much time for one on one bonding.

But Bill Gothard got a LOT of things wrong!

 

It was my understanding that Boob & Me-chelle did not go "fully Gothard" until they had 4 or 5 kids. That's why my comment was about Josh's earliest and most formative years. I realize he experienced a lot of Gothard goofiness, just not until he was older. Not to mention the poverty, a screaming SAHM, etc. But unless I'm off on the timeline, I thought his earliest childhood was "relatively" normal.

[RazzleberryPie]

Oh I think Josh is impacted by Gothardism more than any of them, simply because he is the only one who would probably remember the transition from being a more normal Southern Baptist family to the full on Kool-aid Immersion. He's the one who would see and possibly remember the differences in going to Christian Kindergarten, having Halloween parities, Michelle wearing pants, etc., vs homeschooling, banning Halloween and TV, the prairie clothes, etc. He also saw his parents dive in head first, before the rules loosened up a little bit.

 

As firstborn, he's also the Role Model Child who gets the brunt of the most extreme changes in lifestyle, simply because he's the first. Same goes for Jana with being the first girl. Josh and Jana are the two who would have to fight the battles of simple issues like 'why aren't we going to school anymore,' 'why can't I go trick or treating, 'why can't i watch a Disney movie?' I've seen this absolutely infuriate more self-centered, domineering, controlling parents, who just don't 'get' that kids have questions. They're not necessarily rebelling, disrespecting or disobeying their parents, they just want to know why they have to wear skirts 24/7 when other kids wear pants, or whatever. Subsequent kids just know the pattern is established, so it's easier.

 

Josh down to Jinger are also the ones who got the brunt of all the character training, the Aldi shopping, Goodwill clothing, the teeny house, Michelle's breakdown, JimBob's campaign trail and all the hardcore church services, training sessions, isolation from the real world, etc.

 

Parents often think that as long as they 'successfully' raise the first kid, the next will fall in line. First children set the parental boundaries and expectations and get a whole lot more trial and error 'training' than younger kids. Younger kids already have a pattern to follow, questionable things have already been answered, and honestly, the younger ones slide under the radar far easier, because parents are dealing with perpetual sets of new issues with older kids, too.

 

The Howlers were basically turned loose on their Buddies and the Lost Girls didn't start appearing until TLC already had given them the TTH and income from books, endorsements, the show, etc. started coming in. They'd already been to Disney, all the TLC trips, and never knew the home perms or prairie dresses. They've also never lived a life without fans and the Internet, so they're far more modern than Josh thru Jinger. 

 

Josh has modeled himself more on JimBob, as a male leader with Gothard beliefs, and it's worked to his benefit. At a very young age, he's narrated TV shows, gained a wife, traveled the globe, been given a business and home, then snagged a really sweet job (it paid well and let him live a cushy DC lifestyle, while also being a Rock Star in his social circle, all without any education, experience or real "work"). He might have a little resentment of having the responsibility of all those kids, but he can pull out or get a vasectomy at anytime.  The size of his family is one thing he can definitely have some input in.

[Wellfleet]

Oh I think Josh is impacted by Gothardism more than any of them, simply because he is the only one who would probably remember the transition from being a more normal Southern Baptist family to the full on Kool-aid Immersion. He's the one who would see and possibly remember the differences in going to Christian Kindergarten, having Halloween parities, Michelle wearing pants, etc., vs homeschooling, banning Halloween and TV, the prairie clothes, etc. He also saw his parents dive in head first, before the rules loosened up a little bit.

 

As firstborn, he's also the Role Model Child who gets the brunt of the most extreme changes in lifestyle, simply because he's the first. Same goes for Jana with being the first girl. Josh and Jana are the two who would have to fight the battles of simple issues like 'why aren't we going to school anymore,' 'why can't I go trick or treating, 'why can't i watch a Disney movie?' I've seen this absolutely infuriate more self-centered, domineering, controlling parents, who just don't 'get' that kids have questions. They're not necessarily rebelling, disrespecting or disobeying their parents, they just want to know why they have to wear skirts 24/7 when other kids wear pants, or whatever. Subsequent kids just know the pattern is established, so it's easier.

 

Josh down to Jinger are also the ones who got the brunt of all the character training, the Aldi shopping, Goodwill clothing, the teeny house, Michelle's breakdown, JimBob's campaign trail and all the hardcore church services, training sessions, isolation from the real world, etc.

 

Parents often think that as long as they 'successfully' raise the first kid, the next will fall in line. First children set the parental boundaries and expectations and get a whole lot more trial and error 'training' than younger kids. Younger kids already have a pattern to follow, questionable things have already been answered, and honestly, the younger ones slide under the radar far easier, because parents are dealing with perpetual sets of new issues with older kids, too.

 

The Howlers were basically turned loose on their Buddies and the Lost Girls didn't start appearing until TLC already had given them the TTH and income from books, endorsements, the show, etc. started coming in. They'd already been to Disney, all the TLC trips, and never knew the home perms or prairie dresses. They've also never lived a life without fans and the Internet, so they're far more modern than Josh thru Jinger. 

 

Josh has modeled himself more on JimBob, as a male leader with Gothard beliefs, and it's worked to his benefit. At a very young age, he's narrated TV shows, gained a wife, traveled the globe, been given a business and home, then snagged a really sweet job (it paid well and let him live a cushy DC lifestyle, while also being a Rock Star in his social circle, all without any education, experience or real "work"). He might have a little resentment of having the responsibility of all those kids, but he can pull out or get a vasectomy at anytime.  The size of his family is one thing he can definitely have some input in.

 

This is true, IMO. From this perspective, Josh is certainly the most impacted by Gothard, simply by virtue of being oldest and having the ability to remember Life Before Bill. My point was that overall he probably has the most normal relationship with Me-chelle - maybe the only truly normal one - because he was first and came along years before they really started to gulp down the Gothard Kool-aid. But for me, the jury is still out on whether or not Josh is glad to have had the upbringing he did. I think he's been questioning nearly everything about his life since starting at FRC - maybe before that. Yes, materially he's much MUCH better off. He has a far better life than the average 25-year old white male with [maybe] a GED, no college or even vocational training, a SAHM/wife and 3-almost-4 kids. I think he is wondering What did I miss out on? Is this all there is? and What will happen, what will I do/have when the whole TLC deal goes away?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Wellfleet

[SoSueMe]

Do they realize that it's actually a reveal of the baby's sex, not gender? I hate continuing to hear this term used.

That bothers me too but I wasn't sure so I googled:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php

 

From the link:

Sex refers to a natural or biological feature.

Gender refers to cultural or learned significance of sex.

 

My guess is that to the adult Duggars sex is a four letter word, lol.

[ChicksDigScars]

Wait a minute. Didn't they do a cupcake reveal on the internet a couple months ago? So, which was live, and which was total contrived, scripted bullshit? The "reveal party" or the cupcake reveal?

 

Does Jana know about this 'weekend away babysitting coupon" that "Grandma and Grandpa Duggar" gave Josh and Anna? Especially since she's the one that actually going to be doing the babysitting?

[kalamac]

I keep waiting for a reveal party episode where the ratings are really really low, because everyone's all "eh, we know she's having a girl, we've known for months, I'm gonna watch something else instead."

[Apple Clark]

I hate gender reveal parties. They used to be cute, (and maybe it's just a side effect of watching this show) but I'm so sick of them.

[becca3891]

 

His adolescence was TOTALLY Gothard in a way the middle children's will not be, for instance, and the younger children may have an upbringing that looks almost mainstream Southern Baptist by the time they are teenagers.

Just because they have money now and are happy to jet around the world on TLC's dime does not mean they have abandoned Gothard -- far from it. They still religiously attend ATI conferences and other events, and have their modesty standards, courtship rules, and patriarchal beliefs regarding the ownership of women. I'm not really sure what you mean, other than that they no longer wear prairie dresses, but Gothard never got that specific; only that pants are wrong for women.

[JenCarroll]

Well -- that wasn't my post, but from my POV there are changes already coming about that can all, ultimately, be traced back to the influence of being on TV.

Boob and MeMe are traveling a lot, and they travel without the kids. At some point, the kids' constant watching each other to keep the rules is going to break down. This may have already started. I have a hard time seeing Joy, for instance, as Chief Rat-Fink in Charge of reporting on her sibs. I think they're seeing Josiah getting what he wanted just by holding out for it. I think the kids will realize -- are already realizing -- that they can work the fame game to their own advantage. At some points, JB will give in on things just to stop the kids from making a public stink.

Think about it. JB may still be telling himself he has complete control over their media access, but it's less and less possible to do that. At this point, there's so much coming and going that someone could probably slip an unauthorized laptop or iPad into the house. And if Boob has to choose between going out to speaking engagements and strutting around being important, versus staying home at all times to keep every child in eye range, he's going to go out.

Also, I think the middle kids have gone a bit more under the radar in terms of being able to build relationships with each other that are not triangulated throught the parents. Although Jana and JD were never allowed to develop any kind of special twinship relation, Jed and Jer clearly have. Their loyalty is most likely to each other first.

As the middle boys have their own relationships, I see Joy as being more in sympathy with the boys than her older sisters have been. For one thing, they're her real age-mates and first playmates; for another, she is a lot less interested in "girl" things and probably has an easy time talking to the boys. I could easily see Joy (or even the disillusioned Jana) "accidentally" leaving the net password where the boys could find it.

With the middle kids becoming the oldest kids at home, it may have escaped the parents' notice that Johanna, James, probably even Jackson can or soon will be able to use the Internet without help. It's not like the parents have a real understanding of what the kids' levels of accomplishment are. This will probably become even more true, as JB is distracted by so many concerns with the older kids' relationships, with being a media star, and (if he has the sense God gave a tomato) with increasing concern about Michelle's well-being. He's not going to have the time or energy to demand to "hold their hearts" and hear their every thought. He'll do what a lot of parents do -- let himself believe that he already knows.

So overall, I think a lot of things that continue to get lip-service, just won't be sustainable in real life. And if the middle kids come through all right, by the time the really little ones are growing up Boob and MeMe will be exhausted and ready to retire as parents. And you know, all of this is down to the TV show and its effects. Jim Bob had a choice, he made it, and sooner or later it's likely to bring his whole edifice crumbling down.

And then he'll do a show about that.

Edited May 13, 2015 by JenCarroll

[Darknight]

I do wonder if the kids realize how often mom and dad are gone. When the cats away the mouse will play.

[JenCarroll]

I just re-read my own post above, and it struck me that it sounded a lot more sinister than it was in my head. I just want to emphasize that I don't think those kids are in a state of high rebellion, and most likely they never will be. They are on board, for the most part. But I do think there's a loosening up process underway. I think in the end it will look very different, but it will still look like a conservative, Christian family.

[trimthatfat]

Wait a minute. Didn't they do a cupcake reveal on the internet a couple months ago? So, which was live, and which was total contrived, scripted bullshit? The "reveal party" or the cupcake reveal?

The cupcake reveal was so scripted, I have to assume it was not a live moment. I'll never forget Josh's delivery - he was reading straight from a cue card.

[GEML]

Even the Bates family admits that parenting at 45 is very different than at 25. The intensity level is different. The energy level is different. It's not that one is good or bad, but for Fundy level training, I'd rather have older parents than younger firebrand converts.