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The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

frenchtoast

By frenchtoast
in Counting On

cm-soupsipper
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Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
24 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Not what I was suggesting.   It seems to me that if they were in deep crisis Jeremy would reach out for his parents, or his mother in particular, to come and help, not the Duggars.

Let's face it, Michelle can't/won't come and be of assistance -- back muscle anyone?  That would mean a Duggar sister.  Not sure Jana would be interested, or if she could get away easily with so many kids of her own at home.  That means one of the youngest sisters.  Given they were the end of the train they don't have the childcare experience Jana, Jill, Jessa or Jinger did at this age.   They may "help out" with the grandkid free for all in the TTH, but that's not the same as really providing competent care for babies or toddlers.  (Gideon in the pantry, not that I'm suggesting the girls are responsible.)  I suspect the young girls actually are kept busy with household chores at TTH more than actual childcare.   That's a lot of house that gets a lot of traffic for only a few remaining female minions.    

I agree they'd be more likely to ask his family, but there could be many reasons they don't, even if they could badly use it. Maybe his parents offered when Evy was first born, and Jeremy and Jinger turned her down, so now it's embarrassing to ask for help. Maybe Jeremy's mother has her own stuff going on and isn't able to go back or, a first for these people, actually is wanting to avoid more travel because of the virus. 

Or maybe they're in denial about how badly they need help because it seems like an admission of failure. A lot of people who are way more self-aware and intelligent than these two don't reach out for help when they need it. 

Maybe he's afraid it will look bad to the likes of MacArthur if things seem to be unraveling at home. 

Maybe he's irritated with Jinger because he assumed with all of the younger siblings she'd had that she wouldn't have had trouble dealing with her own kids, ignoring the role of PPD and how inadequate Duggar parenting was.

Maybe Jinger's kind of introverted and/or embarrassed and doesn't want anyone else around so turns down any offers of help.

My point is simply there are an endless number of reasons why they may need help and don't ask for it.

Edited by Zella
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Spencer Hastings
Spencer Hastings

Tough crowd!  She's wearing modern shoes with closed toes, pants, and a shirt that literally calls back to her family's ridiculous rules and there are still 35 things wrong with what she's doing. 

Churchhoney
Churchhoney

That's okay. He's forgotten it a few times himself. 

GeeGolly
GeeGolly

My push presents after having my kids were my kids. 

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Tikichick

Tikichick

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I agree they'd be more likely to ask his family, but there could be many reasons they don't, even if they could badly use it. Maybe his parents offered when Evy was first born, and Jeremy and Jinger turned her down, so now it's embarrassing to ask for help. Maybe Jeremy's mother has her own stuff going on and isn't able to go back or, a first for these people, actually is wanting to avoid more travel because of the virus. 

Or maybe they're in denial about how badly they need help because it seems like an admission of failure. A lot of people who are way more self-aware and intelligent than these two don't reach out for help when they need it. 

Maybe he's afraid it will look bad to the likes of MacArthur if things seem to be unraveling at home. 

Maybe he's irritated with Jinger because he assumed with all of the younger siblings she'd had that she wouldn't have had trouble dealing with her own kids, ignoring the role of PPD and how inadequate Duggar parenting was.

Maybe Jinger's kind of introverted and/or embarrassed and doesn't want anyone else around so turns down any offers of help.

My point is simply there are an endless number of reasons why they may need help and don't ask for it.

I don't disagree.   All I've tried to express is my reasoning for believing that Jeremy's mother would be the one who would be likely to be asked to help, not the Duggars.  

As far as PPD, I merely commented on it saying I hope that's not an issue because I suspect that would be difficult for Jinger to acknowledge, let alone seek help.  I have no information that she has PPD.

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Zella

Zella

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I don't disagree.   All I've tried to express is my reasoning for believing that Jeremy's mother would be the one who would be likely to be asked to help, not the Duggars.  

As far as PPD, I merely commented on it saying I hope that's not an issue because I suspect that would be difficult for Jinger to acknowledge, let alone seek help.  I have no information that she has PPD.

Ah okay gotcha. I think we were talking past each other. 

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Zella

Zella

2 minutes ago, QuinnInND said:

The one thing we can agree on is there's been a huge shift in their socal media presence and postings. Something happened. What it is is a mystery, but it has definitely happened. 

Agreed! We can only speculate on what it means, but the shift is quite striking. 

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Joan of Argh

Joan of Argh

1 hour ago, QuinnInND said:

The one thing we can agree on is there's been a huge shift in their socal media presence and postings. Something happened. What it is is a mystery, but it has definitely happened. 

I don't know much about Jers situation so maybe this is a dumb question lol...when is Jer supposed to graduate or receive his degree or whatever it is he's working towards?

I'm just wondering if it could have anything to do with that?

Ben just received his pastorship or whatever and I'm wondering if Jer flunked and has to study and try again?

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doodlebug

doodlebug

(edited)
5 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

I don't know much about Jers situation so maybe this is a dumb question lol...when is Jer supposed to graduate or receive his degree or whatever it is he's working towards?

I'm just wondering if it could have anything to do with that?

Ben just received his pastorship or whatever and I'm wondering if Jer flunked and has to study and try again?

He's supposed to be finished this spring.  I don't think Jer flunked because he is an a**kisser extraordinaire and The Master's Seminary is known for letting guys like him slide right on through to graduation.  Unless he pisses off MacArthur, he probably doesn't have to do much of anything to get his degree.

Edited by doodlebug
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doodlebug

doodlebug

(edited)
9 minutes ago, Absolom said:

The school changed Jeremy's program from a three year to a four year program.  He should have been finishing in June or so this year.  With the program changing it could be 2022.

Thanks for the info.  Do you think the change applied to those currently enrolled, though?  When I went to medical school, my school had a 3 year program.  We went summers to make up the days and finished in 3 years instead of 4.  The year after I enrolled, the school decided to switch back to a more traditional 4 year curriculum and give first and second year students the summer off.  However, my class having enrolled and been on the 3 year track, was not re-scheduled; we still graduated in 3 years as per the old calendar.  We were the last 3 year class; everyone coming after was in a 4 year track.

It seems like Jeremy's classes were pretty well set and in a sequence from the start.  Unless they added a whole other year of mandatory classes, he should be on track to graduate this spring.

Edited by doodlebug
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
5 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

I don't know much about Jers situation so maybe this is a dumb question lol...when is Jer supposed to graduate or receive his degree or whatever it is he's working towards?

I'm just wondering if it could have anything to do with that?

Ben just received his pastorship or whatever and I'm wondering if Jer flunked and has to study and try again?

He's supposed to be done in May or June 2023. This was previously set out as a three-year degree for those taking it full time -- but a lot of people  took longer. It was officially changed to a four-year degree for full-time students this school year. 

And we know based on the classes he's been taking since he got to LA that Jer completed few if any credits in Texas. And the school offers only a limited slate of language courses -- nothing else -- in the summer semesters, so you can't speed up by taking courses in the summers.

That means that he essentially began the degree program in the 2019-2020 school year, after they arrived in LA. He's currently midway through his second year of a four-year program.

And that means that he's scheduled to finish at the end of the 2022-2023 school year, unless he falls behind because he spends too much time at his Grace Church job -- whatever it is -- or something else. So two-and-a-half more years -- at least -- before he has this master's degree.

It's almost certain (although not 100 percent so) that the change applied to Jeremy, because they all take a lockstep group of courses, and he was only finishing up his first year (and had actually, it appears, either not even taken one of the required courses for that year or failed it, since he had to take it in the summer). The new extended schedule probably wouldn't have applied to him if he'd had only one year left. But he had a full two years left -- which then turned into three years left on the new schedule -- and he was already at least one language course behind that he had to take last summer. 

They basically seem to have changed the schedule because most of the students lacked some preparation for the courses and/or just found the workload too heavy to do at the pace they'd previously prescribed. The only course requirements that they've added to it now that it's officially a four-year degree are preparatory courses on research and writing and language-learning stuff like grammar and so on. Aside from  those preparatory courses, the three-year course had all the same stuff that the course has now, just crammed into a shorter time frame. And it was clear from stuff on blogs and so on that many many of the students struggled and failed to finish it all in three years. 

Jeremy would be one who would have lacked preparation for the courses -- and therefore needed some of the new introductory material they put in -- because he appears to have taken absolutely nothing applicable to these studies as an undergrad. ..... 

 

 

5 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Has he ever mentioned what he plans to do after he finishes ? You know, besides posing for pictures.

He's said that he wants to pastor a church. 

Edited by Churchhoney
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

1 minute ago, MsJamieDornan said:

But, he already did that.

Yeah. And he didn't really seem to love much of it -- although he clearly did love to preach at people! 

This degree he's getting is a degree for a pastor, and that's about it. It covers tons of stuff that pastors do and really nothing that much of anyone else does. His courses are a full slate of pastoral knowledge and pastoral activities. 

And he's continued to proclaim that he wants to be a pastor when he's talking about the seminary, which is seldom. He does share conversation about that with Cade on Twitter from time to time. And they've said that they share the goal of ultimately pastoring Calvinist churches. 

 

 

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Joan of Argh

Joan of Argh

This really puzzles me... Jer's a Peacock who loves designer clothing, fancy pens and pocket squares and I've never met a wealthy pastor, in fact all the ones I've known (not a lot) lived fairly humble lives and didn't make a lot of money and often lived in a home provided for them

That sounds way too humble for Jer... Does he think he'll become famous and a millionaire like Joel Osteen or something?

What type of education and training does Joel Osteen have?

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BigBingerBro

BigBingerBro

10 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

This really puzzles me... Jer's a Peacock who loves designer clothing, fancy pens and pocket squares and I've never met a wealthy pastor, in fact all the ones I've known (not a lot) lived fairly humble lives and didn't make a lot of money and often lived in a home provided for them

That sounds way too humble for Jer... Does he think he'll become famous and a millionaire like Joel Osteen or something?

What type of education and training does Joel Osteen have?

This may help:

The prosperity gospel, explained: Why Joel Osteen believes that prayer can make you rich

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
5 hours ago, Joan of Argh said:

This really puzzles me... Jer's a Peacock who loves designer clothing, fancy pens and pocket squares and I've never met a wealthy pastor, in fact all the ones I've known (not a lot) lived fairly humble lives and didn't make a lot of money and often lived in a home provided for them

That sounds way too humble for Jer... Does he think he'll become famous and a millionaire like Joel Osteen or something?

What type of education and training does Joel Osteen have?

I think he'd be attracted to any job where he got to stand up and have people look at him with awe and admiration. And where he got to tell people what to do and intone his wisdom and show off his pomposity on a regular basis. .

And there just aren't many jobs that offer that. 

I read a couple interviews with him when he was playing pro soccer, and he talked a lot about how he was especially excited to be a role model and an aspirational figure for people and teach the public by example about his faith and so on. He was at least as enthusiastic about that as he was about the sport, and he talked at least as much about that. He's always wanted to be in the public eye and be somebody people look up to, it seems, so pro athlete, pastor, breakout tv star, influencer -- it all fits together under that category in some way. 

Osteen studied broadcast media and communications ......which was smart, because apparently he learned to talk to people in a way that engages them.....And then he got to inherit his father's decent-sized church, after spending many years producing his father's tv ministry and not doing any preaching himself. So he learned how to attract people by talk apparently and was willing to not be out front showing off but instead worked in the background for a long long time. Jer can't possibly have Osteen's trajectory, but I'm sure he'd love to have his results. 

Edited by Churchhoney
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DangerousMinds

DangerousMinds

10 hours ago, Tikichick said:

But then how could they be holier than all the working stiffs?

 

Ironically your question is one that comes up often at my office -- in regard to criminals who are what we call frequent flyers or repeat offenders.

In the criminals’ cases, our society does make it extremely difficult for them to get legitimate jobs once they have a record.

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Jeanne222

Jeanne222

(edited)
2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

He's supposed to be done in May or June 2023. This was previously set out as a three-year degree for those taking it full time -- but a lot of people  took longer. It was officially changed to a four-year degree for full-time students this school year. 

And we know based on the classes he's been taking since he got to LA that Jer completed few if any credits in Texas. And the school offers only a limited slate of language courses -- nothing else -- in the summer semesters, so you can't speed up by taking courses in the summers.

That means that he essentially began the degree program in the 2019-2020 school year, after they arrived in LA. He's currently midway through his second year of a four-year program.

And that means that he's scheduled to finish at the end of the 2022-2023 school year, unless he falls behind because he spends too much time at his Grace Church job -- whatever it is -- or something else. So two-and-a-half more years -- at least -- before he has this master's degree.

It's almost certain (although not 100 percent so) that the change applied to Jeremy, because they all take a lockstep group of courses, and he was only finishing up his first year (and had actually, it appears, either not even taken one of the required courses for that year or failed it, since it had to take it in the summer). THe new extended schedule probably wouldn't have applied to him if he'd had only one year left. But he had a full two years left -- which then turned into three years left on the new schedule -- and was already at least one language course behind that he had to take last summer. 

They basically seem to have changed the schedule because most of the students lacked some preparation for the courses and/or just found the workload too heavy to do at the pace they'd previously prescribed. The only course requirements that they've added to it now that it's officially a four-year degree are preparatory courses on research and writing and language-learning stuff like grammar and so on. Aside from  those preparatory courses, the three-year course had all the same stuff that the course has now, just crammed into a shorter time frame. And it was clear from stuff on blogs and so on that many many of the students struggled and failed to finish it all in three years. 

Jeremy would be one who would have lacked preparation for the courses -- and therefore needed some of the new introductory material they put in -- because he appears to have taken absolutely nothing applicable to these studies as an undergrad. ..... 

 

 

He's said that he wants to pastor a church. 

That's going to be another roadblock because he can't preach!  He's a terrible public speaker!

No wonder they're holed up!  Just one problem after another!

Edited by Jeanne222
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Jeanne222

Jeanne222

1 hour ago, Joan of Argh said:

This really puzzles me... Jer's a Peacock who loves designer clothing, fancy pens and pocket squares and I've never met a wealthy pastor, in fact all the ones I've known (not a lot) lived fairly humble lives and didn't make a lot of money and often lived in a home provided for them

That sounds way too humble for Jer... Does he think he'll become famous and a millionaire like Joel Osteen or something?

What type of education and training does Joel Osteen have?

Osteen has the gift of gab!  He captures his audience and makes you believe and want to give until it hurts!

Jeremy is just not there yet.

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Nysha

Nysha

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Jer can't possibly have Osteen's trajectory, but I'm sure he'd love to have his results. 

He is sooo boring to listen to, there's no way he'll ever manage to build a successful TV ministry. It's okay to be a monotone pastor at a church people go to to keep from going to hell. They can get their spiritual fellowship from others in the congregation. But no one is going to sit in their living room and feel inspired by god to send Jeremy money.

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Zella

Zella

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(edited)

The biggest roadblock for Jeremy and what his end-game goals seem to be is there isn't such a thing as a charisma school. You either have it or you don't, and he doesn't. And I don't either, and many people don't. But if you want to be a flashy evangelist, which seems to be his career goal, you have to have it. And he doesn't seem to have other attributes that might work in his favor as a pastor in the face of a lack of charisma.

I've known pastors who were not the greatest of public speakers or the most lovable of personalities, but they had a real knack for digging into Scripture in a way that was thought-provoking but still easy to follow, so people came away thinking, "Hey, I never thought of it that way." And I've known others who were just not great at the preaching part period, but they were incredibly and genuinely kind and very concerned about their congregation. The type of person you could call up at 3 am to tell you have a problem, and they'd immediately drive an hour to come sit with you at a hospital. 

From what I've seen with Jeremy, he not only lacks the charisma and instincts to be an effective fame-whore/televangelist, but his preaching is boring and unoriginal and uninteresting, and his overwhelming vibe at Laredo was that he did not give a shit about that church or those people and spent as much time away as possible. I think it's pretty telling that even when Jeremy is ostensibly posting about someone else (including his wife or his dad), he can't help but still make the post about himself. 

I can only imagine him trying to counsel someone.

"I've been having a hard time since my wife left me. *sob*"

"That's a bummer. . . . Did you know my wife and I are the breakout stars of Counting On?

Edited by Zella
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
13 minutes ago, ouinason said:

it's super strange that Fancy Pants is not as good of an actual preacher as barely visible Ben.

Yeah, it sure is strange. And, to me at least, it's not even close. Bin beats him by miles. Both in content and presentation. Which amazes me. 

 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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Joan of Argh

Joan of Argh

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I'm not the type to follow a TV evangelist but dammit all to hell if I don't stop and listen if I'm clicking through the channels and happen upon Joyce Meyer... I don't know what it is but her corny stories and the way she struts around in her pantsuit with her helmet hairdo stops me dead in my tracks and it pisses me off but I just have to hear the end of whatever story she's telling.  

A couple times hubby has walked in the room and can't believe his eyeballs but he's learned not to ask!  😂

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Zella

Zella

10 minutes ago, Joan of Argh said:

I'm not the type to follow a TV evangelist but dammit all to hell if I don't stop and listen if I'm clicking through the channels and happen upon Joyce Meyer... I don't know what it is but her corny stories and the way she struts around in her pantsuit with her helmet hairdo stops me dead in my tracks and it pisses me off but I just have to hear the end of whatever story she's telling.  

A couple times hubby has walked in the room and can't believe his eyeballs but he's learned not to ask!  😂

My dad and I used to be riveted by Doyle Davidson. Not that he had any inherent charisma, but he was just crazy as fuck and we couldn't look away. 

I think one of Jeremy's problem is he's a train wreck as a preacher but isn't even entertaining as a train wreck. He's boring, which is the deadliest televangelist sin of all. 

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YupItsMe

YupItsMe

On 1/28/2021 at 8:50 PM, awaken said:

It’s strange to me that they’d post a photo of her looking like she’s been crying. You’d think they’d pick a better one to further their polished image. And it’s not hard for people with no responsibilities to take and post photos of their baby, considering Jeremy clearly has his phone in hand at all times and has no trouble being active on social media. I don’t buy that they’re too busy to take photos or post. I’m not sure of the reason, but I believe it’s a specific choice. 

I just hope there’s not something seriously wrong with the baby.

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Joan of Argh

Joan of Argh

I agree that she looks flushed and red in the face...

She made a post recently that her doctor gave her the green light to work out again and I'm wondering if maybe she over did it as some of you were worried about.

I hope Jer isn't adding to the pressure of her getting back in shape and she's pushing herself too hard.

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

How do we know Jeremy lacks charisma? Its my experience that many who are charismatic are charmed by themselves as well. My brother for instance, oozes charm out of ever pore and attracts folks like a magnet. But behind closed doors he won't even look at photos that he's not in.

If Jeremy is even the least bit charming in real life, Jinger's fame could certainly be a boost in Jeremy getting a televangelist gig going. The rest is easier - selling what folks want to hear. 

As much as it pains me to say so, with the right support, I think Jeremy could be as successful as many of the televangelists out there now.

All that said, I wouldn't use charisma to describe any televangelist I have seen on TV, but I'm not interested in what they're selling. 

Now Dr Fauci, he likely could sell me swamp land in FL. 😁

 

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Chicklet

Chicklet

(edited)

Yea Dr. Fauci has the "convictions of his beliefs" (kind of phrase that RPF would understand), only his "beliefs" are science and I think he is pretty charming. Brains are just charming a lot of the time, to me anyway. I find it hard to tolerate intellectually less blessed people in the media or on the internets. Jer just isn't that smart. Jinger is not a brain trust and is barely literate in any sense.

Thus endeth my Saturday Sermon.

Edited by Chicklet
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

1 hour ago, Chicklet said:

Yea Dr. Fauci has the "convictions of his beliefs" (kind of phrase that RPF would understand), only his "beliefs" are science and I think he is pretty charming. Brains are just charming a lot of the time, to me anyway. I find it hard to tolerate intellectually less blessed people in the media or on the internets. Jer just isn't that smart. Jinger is not a brain trust and is barely literate in any sense.

Thus endeth my Saturday Sermon.

I agree that brains can be attractive, but intelligence doesn't seem to be a requirement to gain fans, followers and/or believers, as evidenced by the many not-so-smart popular celebrities, politicians and influencers out there. 

A good example is Lori Loughlin's daughter, Olivia. She appears to be as dumb as a stump.

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

How do we know Jeremy lacks charisma? Its my experience that many who are charismatic are charmed by themselves as well. My brother for instance, oozes charm out of ever pore and attracts folks like a magnet. But behind closed doors he won't even look at photos that he's not in.

If Jeremy is even the least bit charming in real life, Jinger's fame could certainly be a boost in Jeremy getting a televangelist gig going. The rest is easier - selling what folks want to hear. 

As much as it pains me to say so, with the right support, I think Jeremy could be as successful as many of the televangelists out there now.

All that said, I wouldn't use charisma to describe any televangelist I have seen on TV, but I'm not interested in what they're selling. 

Now Dr Fauci, he likely could sell me swamp land in FL. 😁

 

He may be charming in real life, but to me, he falls pretty flat on social media and film and especially in the pulpit, which is where I was originally focused. Which seems like a real handicap in his chosen line of work since he doesn't seem to have any offsetting attributes. 

Edited by Zella
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iwantcookies

iwantcookies

13 hours ago, Zella said:

 

I can only imagine him trying to counsel someone.

"I've been having a hard time since my wife left me. *sob*"

"That's a bummer. . . . Did you know my wife and I are the breakout stars of Counting On?

You want to buy my book it’s only $30? 
 

 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree that brains can be attractive, but intelligence doesn't seem to be a requirement to gain fans, followers and/or believers, as evidenced by the many not-so-smart popular celebrities, politicians and influencers out there. 

A good example is Lori Loughlin's daughter, Olivia. She appears to be as dumb as a stump.

Women are supposed to be stupid. lol 

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Oldernowiser

Oldernowiser

(edited)

Sign me up for the Dr. Fauci Fan Club. ASAP.

If you’re bored some time, google what John MacArthur has had to say about Joel Osteen. Let’s just say that it may well be just jealousy at work, but MacArthur does come up with some impressively Christianesque synonyms for “fake-ass grifting motherfucker.”

If RFP is aspiring in Osteen’s image, he’d better keep that to himself. MacArthur will toss his toe-kissing behind right out the door.

ETA: I’m sorry, but when I was in grad school I barely had time to read a newspaper, let alone fiddle-fart around playing cards and mainlining designer cheeseburgers. Either this seminary program is total window-dressing or RFP is going to turn this into a ten-year program.

Edited by Oldernowiser
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Zella

Zella

8 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

 

ETA: I’m sorry, but when I was in grad school I barely had time to read a newspaper, let alone fiddle-fart around playing cards and mainlining designer cheeseburgers. Either this seminary program is total window-dressing or RFP is going to turn this into a ten-year program.

It baffles me too. I've never seen anyone else in grad school have so much leisure time. 

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DangerousMinds

DangerousMinds

(edited)
2 hours ago, Oldernowiser said:

Sign me up for the Dr. Fauci Fan Club. ASAP.

If you’re bored some time, google what John MacArthur has had to say about Joel Osteen. Let’s just say that it may well be just jealousy at work, but MacArthur does come up with some impressively Christianesque synonyms for “fake-ass grifting motherfucker.”

If RFP is aspiring in Osteen’s image, he’d better keep that to himself. MacArthur will toss his toe-kissing behind right out the door.

ETA: I’m sorry, but when I was in grad school I barely had time to read a newspaper, let alone fiddle-fart around playing cards and mainlining designer cheeseburgers. Either this seminary program is total window-dressing or RFP is going to turn this into a ten-year program.

I am part of a Facebook group called the Dr. Fauci Fan Club and it’s great! If you’re on fb I recommend joining.

Jeremy has said in the past that he disapproves of the prosperity doctrine. His actions say otherwise though.

2 hours ago, Zella said:

It baffles me too. I've never seen anyone else in grad school have so much leisure time. 

Same. I had very little time (or money!) while in grad school to have any fun. It was so damn stressful.

Edited by DangerousMinds
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1 hour ago, Oldernowiser said:

“fake-ass grifting motherfucker.”

Ok first big laugh of the day, thank you. Describes quite a collection of televangelists. And evangelists. And politicians. And well lots of people come to think of it.

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