S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[GrailKing]

11 hours ago, sunflower said:

The episode was well-done and I was nervous during it, but Sansa lying to Jon about LF/Vale Army kept me from feeling a real love for the episode.  It wasn't like there was a scene between Jon and Sansa in which they argued about tactics for five fucking minutes?!  Maybe Rickon was always going to die, but Sansa, didn't you want to fucking even try to save your little brother?  What of all the people who died in the battle? Canon Fodder for boss bitch moves?  Fuck Her.  I'm pissed that one of my favorite characters has done this.  What's the excuse?  Show is just going to brush by this shit?  LF is one of the reasons Ned is dead, and the whole reason Starks went South to KL anyway.  I can't enjoy it, just pissed right now.  

Going over and over on Sansa and Jon is a no win, no matter what. There were valid reasons on her part, and as far as not wanting to save Rickon, BS!, they were there because she forced Jon at Castle Black to try when Jon wanted to walk away without trying.

On the parley she quickly understood what Ramsey was going to do and why she told Jon Rickon was going to die, even Tormond understood, that's why he told us on screen DON"T!. Jon survived by sheer luck, and almost lost the battle from his pride and stupidity because he was by himself in open field with arrows raining down.

What the Starks need is a good old fashion red blooded Stark from before the Targayrian conquest, not the honor bound ones from Robert's Rebellion.

[Raachel2008]

5 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Now I'm curious what the politics at Winterfell are going to be.   Does Sansa believe Bran will return and rule as Lady Regent in his name?  Will she assume the mantle in her own right?   Does she have the authority to legitimize Jon as a Stark?  

They don't know Bran is alive, and Sansa doesn't have the authority to legitmize Jon as Stark. I also don't think she will be Lady Regent. if I had to bet I would say Jon becomes King of the North with Sansa's support as well as the other houses of the North.

[Constantinople]

Quote

Ramsay: They're loyal beasts.
Sansa:    They were. Now they're starving.

Was Sansa alluding to the Riot in King's Landing?

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, CofCinci said:

He wants her.  She knew he'd show up.

Maybe, but she knew with him there was no guarantee, the info from Jon and Sansa about the BF showed he's not correct, add to what he told Sansa in the crypts, just reinforced  those feelings in her when she and Jon were arguing.

[beeble]

2 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Just two thoughts...when Sansa said, "no one can protect us" did anyone think of Arya?

I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks Arya is dead, even though Brienne saw her and most likely yammered on and on about fighting the Hound. Her chances didn't look great, and admittedly, she did renounce her Starkness to become "Nobody"  for a period of time.

I guess Bran has to make a declaration from the Tree of Knowledge that he officially cedes power to Sansa. Whoa - what if there were a woman running each kingdom in Westeros? Bananas. Just bananas.

[GrailKing]

17 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

They don't know Bran is alive, and Sansa doesn't have the authority to legitmize Jon as Stark. I also don't think she will be Lady Regent. if I had to bet I would say Jon becomes King of the North with Sansa's support as well as the other houses of the North.

Yeah, it will be promising LF a reward in one hand, but taking it away or nullify it with the other.

[ElizaD]

The battle was wonderfully shot and bigger than anything else on TV, but this was the show's most depressing episode after Sansa's rape because it was a complete validation of Ramsay and the Bolton way of ruling. There were no negatives to Roose slaughtering Northerners at the Red Wedding, or to Ramsay raping and torturing for fun when he's not too busy with patricide or flaying a lord. The show's final statement on those topics is that the Bolton methods worked beautifully, they were superior to everything the Starks have done, and the Northern lords genuinely sided with Ramsay. Ramsay defeated and degraded the Starks in every possible way: he was portrayed as the moral winner of the battle for the North, and he was beaten only because of Littlefinger. Without Littlefinger, Jon loses the battle and joins Rickon in death; Sansa either kills herself or spends the rest of her life being raped.

The Starks didn't win, they failed utterly, and the way things played out invited viewers to feel contempt for their stupidity, as can be seen in this thread. Ramsay, on the other hand, wasn't shown making a single mistake: everything he did was a success, and even losing his Stark bride due to his cruelty turned out to be no loss since the North doesn't want to be ruled by the Starks. Until the very last moment, the showrunners kept propping Ramsay at the cost of Jon's credibility as a leader and commander. Ramsay wasn't allowed to be wrong about anything, while Jon and Sansa couldn't be allowed to be good at anything: credit for the victory was given to Littlefinger and Littlefinger alone. The message here is that Ramsay deserved to win and there is absolutely no downside to war crimes, rape and torture since they give you the respect and obedience of your men.

Six seasons, and the showrunners couldn't bring themselves to give the Starks a single triumph after all the endless misery and deaths. Jon and Sansa were given the idiot ball so that Ramsay and Littlefinger could shine. Now, whatever happens, Jon will always remember that his lords chose to support Ramsay over him when they still had a choice, and Sansa will always remember that the North abandoned her to be raped or killed. The North chose the Boltons and Ramsay defeated Jon and Sansa: they were stripped of their moral claim to Winterfell and the Northerners who now serve them will only serve because the Boltons were beaten by Littlefinger's army.

Sansa feeding Ramsay to the hounds is completely worthless because he made her abandon her home and even with the help of her brother she couldn't win it back from him: he raped her in Winterfell for weeks (months?) and every day she spends there she will be living with the memories of how he broke her and the knowledge that the North condoned his actions. In every way Ramsay won before he lost due to being backstabbed by the man who betrayed Ned, while Jon and Sansa were turned into despicable idiots who are being trashed for their inability to communicate with each other, win the support of their lords, or minimize the casualties of the battle.

The only upbeat moment was Tormund killing the Smalljon. It's a pity Jon won't let the wildlings slaughter a few more pro-Bolton Northern lords, maybe then the survivors would respect him as they respected Roose and Ramsay.

[ulkis]

6 hours ago, jcin617 said:

Now I'm curious what the politics at Winterfell are going to be.   Does Sansa believe Bran will return and rule as Lady Regent in his name?  Will she assume the mantle in her own right?   Does she have the authority to legitimize Jon as a Stark?  

I think probably she could assume the mantle in her own right. The reasons why Robb didn't consider her and Arya are Sansa was married to Tyrion and he thought Arya is dead, not because they were women.

If Sansa says yes to marrying Littlefinger that will be so tiresome. I haven't liked him or the actor's performance from the jump.

Edited June 20, 2016 by ulkis

[Ambrosefolly]

2 minutes ago, beeble said:

I'm pretty sure that everyone thinks Arya is dead, even though Brienne saw her and most likely yammered on and on about fighting the Hound. Her chances didn't look great, and admittedly, she did renounce her Starkness to become "Nobody"  for a period of time.

I guess Bran has to make a declaration from the Tree of Knowledge that he officially cedes power to Sansa. Whoa - what if there were a woman running each kingdom in Westeros? Bananas. Just bananas.

So much for equality. Can't there be a mix of men and women rulers? People are people and a woman isn't going to run a kingdom any better or worse than a man.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Winter isn't confirmed until the Citadel sends the white raven, right?

heh. Sort of the Westerosi version of Punxsatawny Phil.

So much to process about this episode. You really felt Jon's panic at being trampled and trapped in that scrum. 

Mereen stuff fell a little flat to me. Dany unleashes her dragons and is awesome-- I feel like we've seen that already. The scale was a little larger, but that was about it. I do like that stories are coming together, and I'm wondering if Theon will give any thought to becoming an Unsullied. If Varys can't show him the career options for a eunuch, perhaps Grey Worm will.

I have nothing new to add anything to the 'why didn't Sansa tell Jon about the Vale troops'  But seeing the Stark banners flying at Winterfell was extremely satisfying.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

I think this underpins all the Sansa talk quite nicely. Yes, it's possible she had no idea if Petyr was coming. Yes, maybe all she had was hope. But we didn't see any of that. We just saw her being ticked off at Jon for not listening to her. And yes he should have listened to her but we all know he wasn't going to because conflict and because show. One scene of her wringing her hands and being worried as fuck like she should've been would solve a lot of problems.

I swear sometimes it feels like the writers are trolling fandom a bit with this stuff.   There were a couple of reasons to withhold that information, chief among them that Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and wasn't actually sure he would show up.  The other would be having to answer Jon's questions about what having Littlefinger show up entails for Sansa:  Either she's in for her third freaking marriage to Robyn or to Littlefinger himself.  

But mostly I think the writers sometimes like to play Poke the Bear with the segment of the fandom that dislikes Sansa -- and it's not just Sansa, it really seems to be almost any of the characters -- for instance there's no earthly reason that Davos finding that stag ought to be the thing that spurs him to finally ask Melisandre what happened to Shireen.  Davos loved Shireen, he'd have asked what became of her long before this.  So instead they leave it for the entire season so that he can find a partly charred toy and then have him finally ask a question that he should have asked at the end of last season. 

I actually like the writers of this series in a lot of ways, but yeah, I think they do troll the fans sometimes.  Like having Ramsay lob out the head of Shaggy Dog  as proof that he has Rickon.  The writers know that the fans HATE what they've been doing to the Direwolves and  honestly, two big ol' closeups of "See?? He BEHEADED the loyal direwolf!!! Closeup on the EVIL."  

Sansa didn't tell Jon about Littlefinger primarily to get a rise out of the fans.  

This episode marks the third time this season I've just gotten up and left the room when it became hyper obvious that the writers were about to attempt to kick me in the stomach:  Rickon's super doomed, beeline to eternity, run for it.  

Fuck off, Show.  I went and got a wine refill and gave my dogs a treat.  

Also, I wish that Ramsay had screamed more at his inevitable, "we've been foreshadowing this so much, it actually had concussive mass"  death-by-dog.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by stillshimpy

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The Bolton soldiers surrounding Jon's Army and turning into the 300 Spartans with their shields and spears and pushing inward was the biggest "Oh shit!" moment for me in an episode full of them.

That, and Jon being trampled, I seriously thought he would die, and all because he made a bad decision.

[stillshimpy]

 There were no negatives to Roose slaughtering Northerners at the Red Wedding, or to Ramsay raping and torturing for fun when he's not too busy with patricide or flaying a lord. The show's final statement on those topics is that the Bolton methods worked beautifully, they were superior to everything the Starks have done, and the Northern lords genuinely sided with Ramsay. Ramsay defeated and degraded the Starks in every possible way: he was portrayed as the moral winner of the battle for the North, and he was beaten only because of Littlefinger. Without Littlefinger, Jon loses the battle and joins Rickon in death; Sansa either kills herself or spends the rest of her life being raped.

Yeah, I couldn't have much "Oh hell yeah, Jon's the Prince that was Promised!" energy going on when he's alive because Littlefinger came to the rescue.  This is also known as "You know you're well and truly fucked, and living in lonely land bereft of goodness, when the only thing standing between you and utter defeat is a guy who started all the shit that killed your family is the only hope".   

The North Remembers, my lily white ass.  Merciful Zeus and Vengeful Hera, hooray.  We're saved.  By Petyr Baelish, who likely only saved the day so that he could burn it the apocalypse of his choosing. 

[nksarmi]

I just got a chance to watch this and holy cow - it was every bit as good as I hoped it would be. All Dany needs is Tyrion to guide her, because for the first time in a VERY long time - I loved her again. I mean loved her. Her gut reaction was overkill. But Tyrion's solution was masterful. Just masterful. The scene where Greyworm cut down the two maesters and Tyrion told the third that he lives by the grace of her majesty - just wow!

And the negotiations between the Ironborn and Dany/Tyrion was one of the most perfect scenes in one of the best episodes ever. Theon is perfect for a man who has been torn down and is rebuilding himself. Yara is perfect and just the right amount of flirty with Dany - to which Dany noticeably responded! It was all just a perfect combination of ah shit - I can't help but get behind these people! And I certainly did not get the villain vibe from Dany this episode though I fully admit she needed Tyrion to keep her from going over that ledge.

And Winterfell! Rickon would have killed me if I didn't already know it was happening (despite how much it's been broadcasted). I loved Jon and I think he's just fantastic - even if he did fall for it. He will make a great battle commander someday, but he's still human. And I love Sansa. I don't care that she didn't tell - she didn't know he'd come and she certainly couldn't be sure they'd make it in time. I got no sense that there will be any bad blood between them going forward. I think we are suppose to be cheering for both of them, not taking sides between them.

The only thing that leaves me conflicted is that I was finally starting to like Mel and now Davos knows. And I much prefer Davos to her, but shit - she could be useful in the future now that's she's humble. I don't know how I want that plot to play out!

[Constantinople]

12 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Winter isn't confirmed until the Citadel sends the white raven, right?

The Citadel sent out white ravens at the start of Season 2.  One of them was in the Small Council meeting that Tyrion crashed.  However, Pycelle said that white raven meant that the Maesters of the Citidel declared that summer was over, not that winter had started

[jeansheridan]

ElizaD, I think your take is fair but much darker than this show will go.  Jon will forgive the other Northern lords.  Sansa is in pain clearly which is a logical result of her years of being beaten down but we get that smirk in the end so I am assuming we are seeing the beginning of her recovery.  I didn't like the smirk (felt cheap and obvious) but it does show some spark.  

 

Also Jon has sealed his legend.  Everyone will remember him rushing out alone.  Everyone will talk of his giant ally and how Jon kicked Ramsey' s ass.  How he should have died a dozen times but did not.  He is a living legend.  Excellent PR.

 

But Sansa took her revenge in private, in the shadows.  A public execution would have been wiser but Jon gave her that.  But I don't think we will get fallout from her actions.  Jon won't wonder about her bloodlust.  He accepts she needed retribution and he allowed it even though allowing a POW to die by dog is pretty dishonorable.  

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Winter isn't confirmed until the Citadel sends the white raven, right?

They sent it many episodes back, when Janos Slynt was complaining of the poor folk flooding into KL.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Not only is Jon a terrible battlefield commander, he's also a terrible trash talker.

What's the point of offering one-on-one combat if not to retort

after Ramsay taunts

And Sansa forgot to drop the mic after she said

I was totally waiting for Jon to call him a bastard and he didn't.  Which made it even more bizarre when he said he was trying to make Ramsay angry. 

The inability of the writers to allow Jon to verbally defend himself is really annoying.

[stillshimpy]

Since Ramsay's ending up as Baskerville Chow was foreshadowed so heavily from the moment he told the Maester to feed Myranda to the dogs (and then again when he fed a freaking live infant to them) it was a fitting enough end, without any true surprise to it.  

We ended up discussing how Ramsay wouldn't have any teeth left after Jon beat the crap out of him.   Talk about  gallows humor.  As I'm saying, "He'd scream more than that, apparently the show only likes to have little girls screaming when they die agonizing deaths"  my husband noted that he should be lisping out a few screams for "muh-cy!"  .  

[The Mighty Peanut]

My reaction to this moment was pretty much on par with how I imagine I'd feel if I was around when we won the Revolutionary War. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[GrailKing]

12 hours ago, lmsweb said:

Ok wait a minute, wait a minute....Sansa fed the line to Ramsay at the end about him having starved his dogs for 7 days. Except she rode away from the negotiations BEFORE Ramsay said it. Not sure if I should call that sloppy writing or fanwank that for some reason, of all the conversations they had, that the subject of whether or not Ramsay had fed his dogs this week came up?

Well yeah, I said the same, but then when Sansa asked e Jon where he put him I felt Jon could reply off screen with his dogs, they haven't eaten in a week.

[Notwisconsin]

5 hours ago, BooBear said:

On Sansa- if anyone is worried about a female becoming a bad guy, I am a little worried about Sansa. She is a little off the rails and drunk with power.

Sansa, back in Season one, WAS the bad guy. All the crap that happened after the butcher boy was killed by Joffrey in like episode two or three was due to her betraying Arya. Then she betrayed her father when He was trying to get her and her sister out of town.

[Advance35]

For all the hate Littlefinger gets I think he's their best bet of surviving what's coming.  The Otherpocalypse isn't their only worry, though it is the most important.   There is a good chance that The Vale and The North will have to waste men fighting  Southern Armies if their is anything left of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.   The girl who murdered a King (as far as the world knows) just publicly helped wage a war for the Seat of the North.  The Iron Throne can't let that stand.   Jon/Sansa don't know that House Lannister and House Tyrell are on the verge of Collapse.   They may hear rumblings of the High Sparrow but they probably don't know how bad it's gotten.  Having LF's "assistance" wouldn't be a bad thing.  The snake will always bite but neither Jon nor Sansa are up for dealing with the necessary politics themselves.  Sansa can pull clever tricks but she is much better and more successful when she's a co-conspirator.   And Jon just doesn't have "it."

If I were either, I wouldn't be so quick to kill the Mockingbird.

[Alapaki]

Quote

Davos did in the strategy scene.  Ramsey rules by fear.  If he holed up in the castle it would make him look like a coward and he would lose more support.  That said, I am surprised he didn't take hostages from all the houses "loyal" to him to ensure their loyalty.

But how much loyalty did Ramsey hope to preserve by sending his cavalry (which, I'm presuming, was made up most of non-Boltons) into the kill-zone of his archers?

Traditionally, archers would be used to either soften up the enemy before a charge, or the thin out a charging mass of troops, not to fire into a commingled mass of the enemy and one's own men.  (given the speculation that a Northern Lord would "switch sides", I was thinking that would be the trigger for it).

It's one thing to hunker down and wait for some amorphous enemy who may or may not decide to attack.  But when you know that the enemy is massed for assault in a location that really couldn't sustain them (which meant the enemy was either going to assault or retreat in short order) the smart strategy is to stay behind your walls and let the walls do the work.  (*my one caveat here would be the question of whether Ramsey knew Jon had Wun-Wun.  Because having a giant who can take that sort of punishment gives the attacker a force-multiplier that would improve their odds against a fortified castle considerably.).

As far as SANSA, count me on the "con" side.  She knew the biggest weakness in the plot to retake Winterfell was the lack of manpower, because she brought it up in Every. Single. Discussion. with Jon.  Was she waiting to Jon to ask her specifically about whether she knew of any other large force massed and ready to help?  Because if so, that was pretty passhole-aggresshole of her.  

I mean, would it killed her to have said (even just privately to Jon, away from the others) "you know, by the by, a couple of days/weeks ago this guy who's kind of running the Vale and who helped me escape Kings Landing offered to lend the Vale's Army.  He's not really trustworthy, but it might be something you guys might want to look into before starting a battle in which you're pretty likely to get slaughtered."

She acted like she thought she was another Clauswitz or Sun Tzu when she told Jon that the enemy is going to try to use deception, etc.  And I doubt that she was able to sneak off overnight, find Littlefinger (who would possibly still be at Moat Caitlin), take him up on his offer (which you know at this point is going to come with a whole lot of conditions that it wouldn't have at Mole Town), agree, and have that Army prepped for battle and, conduct a forced march, and be ready to enter the fray on less than 12 hours' notice.  I'm guessing she'd gotten some sort of response from Littlefinger and was planning on being the "savior" of the battle.

[Constantinople]

14 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

Sansa, back in Season one, WAS the bad guy. All the crap that happened after the butcher boy was killed by Joffrey in like episode two or three was due to her betraying Arya.

Even Ned Stark, paragon of all that is true and righteous, understood when Sansa said she didn't remember, and not backing-up a Crown Prince is pretty ballsy.

16 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

Then she betrayed her father when He was trying to get her and her sister out of town.

This never happened in the show.

[benteen]

Sansa wants to know why the men in the North don't want to fight for House Stark?  Maybe it's because she's willing to send them to their death while she doesn't reveal that she has access to a secret army on the side for reasons unknown.  Seriously, I don't think I'm as mad by the whole thing as I should be because I truly do not understand what the writers were going for by having Sansa without this information except creating artificial drama.

[areca]

2 hours ago, DropTheSoap said:

Ramsey's game with Rickon did not surprise me. I did yell at the screen, "zig zag!" Also, "did Osha teach you nothing? Because you know nothing, Rickon Stark."

I do not understand why he did not immediately run in front of the goddamn huge burning obstacles between him and the archer.  I was so mad at that boy.

[Unknown poster]

11 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

But how much loyalty did Ramsey hope to preserve by sending his cavalry (which, I'm presuming, was made up most of non-Boltons) into the kill-zone of his archers?

Traditionally, archers would be used to either soften up the enemy before a charge, or the thin out a charging mass of troops, not to fire into a commingled mass of the enemy and one's own men.  (given the speculation that a Northern Lord would "switch sides", I was thinking that would be the trigger for it).

It's one thing to hunker down and wait for some amorphous enemy who may or may not decide to attack.  But when you know that the enemy is massed for assault in a location that really couldn't sustain them (which meant the enemy was either going to assault or retreat in short order) the smart strategy is to stay behind your walls and let the walls do the work.  (*my one caveat here would be the question of whether Ramsey knew Jon had Wun-Wun.  Because having a giant who can take that sort of punishment gives the attacker a force-multiplier that would improve their odds against a fortified castle considerably.).

I think it was a case of Ramsey's arrogance and bloodlust taking over. His father told him that it's a mistake to abandon a tactical advantage like Winterfell. In the end, I think the "mad dog" got the better of him.

[sumiregusa]

11 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I liked that Sansa called Jon on not asking for her opinion/insight when planning the battle with Davos and Tormind, and I liked that he apologized and asked what she thought. But this scene sort of feel flat for me, because Sansa didn't offer more than the 'I know Ramsay and Rickon is dead'. So when Jon says that 'odds blah blah', and she cannot reply anything else, it simply shows - again - that she doesn't trust him to explain about the Valley - and that she is no strategist since she cannot give any other help than 'Rickon is dead, because Ramsay is a fucker and he will kill our brother one way or another.'  It also makes her look, I don't even know, but she was the one who pushed the battle to Winterfell using as her main argument that Ramsay had Rickon. Generally speaking, the writing for the North plot sucks big time and does/did no favors to Sansa and Jon. There are/were individual scenes that were well-written and poignant and even kick-ass, but most of the time, it all comes down to Jon and Sansa being written as idiots/sttuborn/naive (which they are not, at least not all the time and not at the same time) so their forces would be outnumbered and close to death until rescue came and Littlefinger could save the day and be back in the big game. 

All of this, with this on the side. Jon/Sansa reunion? Magical, and that says a lot because it wasn't Jon/Arya. Everything else since then has just been plothole after plothole and me not knowing how I'm supposed to feel about a character (Sansa) that the writers clearly want us to root for. Jon is Jon is Jon, he is always consistent. Bullheaded? Stoic? Practical? Always consistent. I can't get a read on Sansa Stark at all and it's really starting to grate. If she's filling in for Lady Stoneheart then I guess...yay? But it doesn't seem that way.

Edited June 20, 2016 by sumiregusa
Typo struggle

[Black Knight]

It occurs to me that D&D have probably just gotten Sansa back in line with GRRM's plot after the big storyline diversion of the last two seasons. As of the most recent book, as readers know, she was still in the Vale, with Littlefinger planning to get her control of both the Vale and Winterfell. So most likely, in a future book Sansa and Littlefinger ride together from the Vale with the army, intending to reclaim Winterfell, and arrive in time to turn the tide of the battle. Which pretty much wipes out the entire issue in this episode currently being debated, about whether Sansa knew anything for sure that she should have told Jon about (and I'm personally on the side that she did not, and from the interviews it doesn't seem that anybody with the show views what she did as some sort of betrayal) - because in the books she's never there in advance, she just arrives from the Vale with an army.

I really thought Arya would make use of Littlefinger's teleporter and end up arriving at Winterfell during the battle, but that didn't happen. So, now I'm thinking she must be in King's Landing when shit goes down there next week. Ships from Essos would be likely to make King's Landing their first port of call.

It was also a refreshing change of pace to see Dany civilizing white people for a change - the White Savior thing of the last few seasons has been uncomfortable, especially visually, since the Dothraki, slave Masters and slaves have been 99.9% people of color. It's good she's being consistent since the ironborn, of all the Westerosi groups, are the most like the Dothraki in terms of their warlike way of life.

[Dev F]

45 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

They sent it many episodes back, when Janos Slynt was complaining of the poor folk flooding into KL.

That was the raven announcing the beginning of autumn, not the beginning of winter.

10 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

I think it was a case of Ramsey's arrogance and bloodlust taking over. His father told him that it's a mistake to abandon a tactical advantage like Winterfell. In the end, I think the "mad dog" got the better of him.

I actually appreciated that it was a little more nuanced than that. Jon expected Ramsay to be bloodthirsty and careless, but he was in fact pretty calculating. He knew, like Jon said, that he can't rule the North by fear if his troops are unable to leave his holdfast, but instead of blundering into Jon's trap, he contrived a way to lure Jon into a trap without putting his own forces at excessive risk.

Though it is hard to imagine that a giant army marching north didn't attract his attention as a possible complication. I'm still assuming that Littlefinger was pretending that the Knights of the Vale were there to reinforce Ramsay's forces rather than battle them, or it makes no sense that they could traverse Bolton territory unseen and unmolested for hundreds of miles.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Dev F

[paigow]

13 minutes ago, areca said:

I do not understand why he did not immediately run in front of the goddamn huge burning obstacles between him and the archer.  I was so mad at that boy.

Stark Luck ...his clothes would have magically caught fire...

[SFoster21]

9 hours ago, Misplaced said:

Wowsers.   That was equal parts amazing and unpleasant. The camera work when Jon was under The Heap was astonishing.  

Loved the music over the end credits.  Just lovely.

Now we know why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale army...because Jon did exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do!  

I want to add that all of the music was terrific.. The music when Dany rides off on her dragon and the Winterfell battle music were so great in adding to the atmosphere.

[mac123x]

Perusing the Unsullied thread, I see that the wildfire-in-Kings-Landing anvil landed with several of them.

 

Thank you, @ElectricBoogaloo, for the exact words from the Quotes thread:

 

Yara: Euron's offer is also an offer of marriage, you see. You won't get one without the other.

 Dany: And I imagine your offer is free of any marriage demands.

 Yara: I never demand, but I'm up for anything really.

 

The non-verbal acting was pretty good.  I didn’t see Yara flirting with Dany so much as trying to lighten the mood.  Theon was being earnest, Tyrion was being cranky, so she made a joke.  And though Emilia Clarke’s face is hard to read sometimes, I thought her reaction was basically, “yeah, that is kinda funny.”  Could it have romantic implications?  Sure.  It could also lead to just a friendly relationship.

 

Now what I’m really hoping for is, since “the dragon has three heads”, Yara gets to ride Rhaegal (at least once) and torch Euron.  “Hi, my nuncle!  I made a new friend.  I don’t think ‘what is dead may never die’ applies in this situation, do you?  Dracarys.”  [fwoomp]

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

The Starks didn't win, they failed utterly, and the way things played out invited viewers to feel contempt for their stupidity, as can be seen in this thread. Ramsay, on the other hand, wasn't shown making a single mistake: everything he did was a success, and even losing his Stark bride due to his cruelty turned out to be no loss since the North doesn't want to be ruled by the Starks. Until the very last moment, the showrunners kept propping Ramsay at the cost of Jon's credibility as a leader and commander. Ramsay wasn't allowed to be wrong about anything, while Jon and Sansa couldn't be allowed to be good at anything: credit for the victory was given to Littlefinger and Littlefinger alone. The message here is that Ramsay deserved to win and there is absolutely no downside to war crimes, rape and torture since they give you the respect and obedience of your men.

The direwolf is flying over Winterfell.  However it was achieved, I'd call that a victory.

[vibeology]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

But she asked LF for help. She send him a raven asking him for his help. The army is in Moat Cailin. LF said he would help. What is wrong in her telling Jon all this? Seriously? Why can't Jon use this info and get the Glovers to help him? Why can't Jon or Davos send some riders to check if there is a Vale army on the way and wait for a few days. As Jon mentioned, the only reason they attacked was because he thought they had no more resources. The riders could come back with info and Jon and Davos could have made new plans.

Sansa just sat on that info uselessly. If she was so doubtful about LF turning up why not send some riders to check it out?

This was such an easy issue for the writers to fix. All they had to do was have Ramsay give a deadline either in the initial letter or in the parlay. Have Ramsay say "meet me on the battlefield tomorrow or I start to flay Rickon at sundown. Can't wait to send you the parts." Once that deadline is in place, Sansa can tell Jon about the Vale army and he can still go into battle, thinking the Army won't make it on time and he has to try to save Rickon. They could still even have a confrontation; Jon fighting to save Rickon and Sansa arguing that Rickon is dead either way and they have to be smart and save Winterfell instead. One or two lines of dialogue would have changed so much about this.

I like that Dany was willing to give up some control of the Iron Islands in favour of gaining allies. She should make the Dorne Style deal to the North too, where they can be Princes, rule their area autonomously with their own laws but have taxes and responsibilities to the seven kingdoms. Those three kingdoms (Dorne, II and the North) are especially removed from the rest and if Dany shows up with Dragons that can kill White Walkers, I'm sure the North would happily work with her.

[Misplaced]

51 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

But mostly I think the writers sometimes like to play Poke the Bear with the segment of the fandom that dislikes Sansa -- and it's not just Sansa, it really seems to be almost any of the characters -- for instance there's no earthly reason that Davos finding that stag ought to be the thing that spurs him to finally ask Melisandre what happened to Shireen.  Davos loved Shireen, he'd have asked what became of her long before this.  So instead they leave it for the entire season so that he can find a partly charred toy and then have him finally ask a question that he should have asked at the end of last season. 

But he did ask her (at the end of last season) about Shireen -- after Stannis' battle when Mel showed up alone -- and then Jon died.  And he asked her again post-resurrection, and then Brienne interrupted.  I think it's perfectly normal for him to believe Shireen and Selyse died in or just after the battle, because apparently everyone else in Stannis' army did.  (Or, also, plausible, he unconsciously knew what Stannis what going to do when Stannis sent him away, and his own guilt stops him from asking.)

In the same vein, GRRM does his own trolling with his subversion of tropes, grimdark, etc -- Martin's whole schtick is that events don't turn out as expected, there is no poetic justice, the good guys die, the bad guys like Ramsay manage to succeed against all our moral outrage, maybe even that the North remembers how Robb screwed up and nothing else.   (I'm predicting Ramsay dies in Bookworld by something so mundane as breaking his neck while falling off his horse rushing away from the battlefield.)  

Also, I know people are irritated at the direwolves but I keep asking - Lady's dead in the books, Nymeria is wild in the books (or dead, if you don't think that's Nymeria leading the wolved in AFFC)), Grey Wind is dead in the books, Rickon's wolf is called Shaggydog for heaven's sake -- he'll be dead before too long.  My own theory is that the Starks can't survive in the new post-Ned world unless they let go everything it means to be Starks, and the direwolves are the very symbol of Starkness...so I can't get too upset about the wolves.  Eh.  It's just me.  

[ulkis]

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Regarding Brienne:  I say this only half in jest - a scene in which Brienne fights anywhere near Jon just reinforces Jon's diminutive stature.  It would almost be unintentionally funny.

That's definitely a possibility that they left her out to make Jon seem less short, but Brienne is supposed to be freakishly tall so if they left her out for that reason that's silly. But it wouldn't surprise me.

Someone mentioned there was another queen that ruled westeros, but they were never going to mention her. Viewers have enough trouble keeping track of what characters are on screen, bringing up some random backstory characters would just be plain confusing.

I don't think the North didn't want the Starks ruling, I think they were just afraid of Ramsey. Not that that makes it more heartwarming or anything, but I don't think it was a case of them hating the Starks. 

[VCRTracking]

I'm going with the "Sansa didn't tell Jon about Littlefinger's army because she wasn't sure they were coming" opinion. Because if she did know for certain she would have been more confident and less freaked out about their odds in the tent. Yes she told Ramsay he was going to die tomorrow but she also told Jon if they were going to lose she would probably take her own life than return to Ramsay. She was basically bluffing Ramsay. The Afterbuzz reviewers didn't think she was strong enough but I think she had been through so much at this point that she would.

[Unknown poster]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That was the raven announcing the beginning of autumn, not the beginning of winter.

I actually appreciated that it was a little more nuanced than that. Jon expected Ramsay to be bloodthirsty and careless, but he was in fact pretty calculating. He knew, like Jon said, that he can't rule the North by fear if his troops are unable to leave his holdfast, but instead of blundering into Jon's trap, he contrived a way to lure Jon into a trap without putting his own forces at excessive risk.

Though it is hard to imagine that a giant army marching north didn't attract his attention as a possible complication. I'm still assuming that Littlefinger was pretending that the Knights of the Vale were there to reinforce Ramsay's forces rather than battle them, or it makes no sense that they could traverse Bolton territory unseen and unmolested for hundreds of miles.

He certainly manipulated Jon, but I still think the overall strategy was poor. Even if the Vale hadn't arrived to defeat him, that victory would have cost Ramsey many more men than it needed to. I guess I'm not buying the idea that the Northerners would consider it cowardly to use your greatest advantage, and preserve as many lives as you can. Instead, we got Ramsey wasting human resources, and raining arrows into his own ranks like Edward the Longshanks. That would seem to me to make his hold on the north LESS secure, even in victory. Which leader seems more ripe for overthrow, the one who keeps the vast majority of his forces intact, and let's an ill equipped, undermanned force break themselves on his walls, or the one whose victory costs him a few thousand men, or roughly a 1/3 of his army?

[VCRTracking]

Another reason I think Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale's army might be coming is that she didn't want to give him false hope. She's had so much false hope through the years where there would be a bright spot for her and it was cruelly taken away that it was like a death of a thousand cuts.

There arestill  people who haven't forgiven Sansa for lying in favor of Joffrey way back in the second episode of season 1 and will always dislike her to this day and believe she will sell out her own family and think the worst of her. "Oh she didn't care about Rickon" . I say she initially wanted to save Rickon when she found out he was held prisoner but had to realize the hard truth that Ramsay would never leave him alive.

Edited June 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Ottis]

Quote

Another reason I think Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale's army might be coming is that she didn't want to give him false hope.

Yes, and here's the thing about Sansa telling Jon or not: Unless LF had replied and said I am coming (did he? if so, I missed it), what difference would it have made to tell Jon? Jon wouldn't have known whether LF was coming, or when, so ... just wait indefinitely, then? Jon would have attacked, anyway.

The bigger issue is Jon's total lack of strategy or acumen. That's what doomed them, not the fact Jon went ahead w/o knowledge of LF.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Ottis

[AshleyN]

I know there's a lot of other things to talk about after this episode, but can we just give a quick shout out to Lyanna Mormont's stank face when Ramsay was talking about "forgiving traitors"? I just love her.

Anyways, even with my issues with how the Littlefinger issue played out, that was a pretty fucking spectacular episode of television. I'd like to think that Miguel Sapochnik has the directing Emmy locked up, but given that they didn't even nominate him for "Hardhome", who knows. Still, his work here was incredible -- the sequence with Jon being trampled and suffocating was one of the most viscerally terrifying things I've seen on television.

As impressive as the ending to the Battle of Mereen was (and the dragons in particular really did look amazing here), the contrast between Dany once again crushing her enemies without breaking a sweat and the absolute horror show happening at Winterfell is a pretty good illustration of why I find it so difficult to get invested in her storyline or her as a character. There's just nothing particularly compelling about a character who always wins and only ever faces minor, and easily defeated, challenges. As hard as it can be to watch the Starks struggle and suffer so much (and I do think the series goes too far with it sometimes), it's a big part of what makes moments like Jon and Sansa's reunion or the direwolf banner unfurling over the walls of Winterfell so powerful.

And on that note, I really hope that they don't wait until next season to change the sigil on Winterfell in the credits. I really want to see the castle intact for the first time since Season 2, and I don't know if I can wait a year for it.

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also Jon has sealed his legend.  Everyone will remember him rushing out alone.  Everyone will talk of his giant ally and how Jon kicked Ramsey' s ass.  How he should have died a dozen times but did not.  He is a living legend.  Excellent PR.  

I thought it was interesting that Ramsay mentioned that Jon is acquiring a quite a reputation as a warrior. Despite the early tactical mistake, I have to think that reputation is going to grow exponentially after this battle.

12 hours ago, Insomnia said:

Forget coming back to life, tonight we just watched the rebirth of Jon when he was climbing out of that pile of bodies.

Also while not exactly a star shape those burning flayed bodies were there, salt and smoke from the battle, and Jon's sword was very bright red from all the blood when he was approaching Ramsey, not al dark and dirty blood like... everywhere else.

This is an interesting observation that I hadn't thought of, even without the potential Azor Ahai connection. Ever since his resurrection, Jon's demeanour has been fairly defeatist. He initially made it clear that he had no fight left in him, he wanted no part in any war against the Bolton's until he found out about Rickon, and for most in his interactions with people (especially the Northern houses they were trying to recruit) he's been lacking in confidence and conviction. All in all it's been a huge step backwards for a character who's whole arc on the series has been about his development as a leader. On top of that, his conversation with Melisandre illustrated that he was ready to die again, and didn't want to come back if he did. Yet when the moment came when he'd been defeated by Ramsay, had failed in his mission to save his brother, and he was about to die, he didn't give into it, but chose to fight for survival instead. I really hope that this is a turning point for Jon and we'll see him with a renewed sense of purpose after this.

I just really wish the show's writers would realize that "You know nothing, Jon Snow" wasn't actually meant to be taken literally.

Edited June 20, 2016 by AshleyN

[Oscirus]

Quote

On the parley she quickly understood what Ramsey was going to do and why she told Jon Rickon was going to die, even Tormond understood, that's why he told us on screen DON"T!. Jon survived by sheer luck, and almost lost the battle from his pride and stupidity because he was by himself in open field with arrows raining down

Jon was always going to save his little brother.  Everybody can argue the stupidity over it, but that's Jon he's not going to sit back and watch as his brother's brutally murdered. I don't see how anybody can be expected to do something like that.

Quote

for instance there's no earthly reason that Davos finding that stag ought to be the thing that spurs him to finally ask Melisandre what happened to Shireen.  Davos loved Shireen, he'd have asked what became of her long before this.

He asked at least once then he was interrupted by Brienne. Since then, he's been too busy preparing for war.

 I kind of like the whole new generation fixing the mistakes of the old generation theme that the writers currently have going on. The villains kids uniting for that purpose was pretty cool.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

But he did ask her (at the end of last season) about Shireen -- after Stannis' battle when Mel showed up alone -- and then Jon died.  And he asked her again post-resurrection, and then Brienne interrupted.  I think it's perfectly normal for him to believe Shireen and Selyse died in or just after the battle, because apparently everyone else in Stannis' army did.  (Or, also, plausible, he unconsciously knew what Stannis what going to do when Stannis sent him away, and his own guilt stops him from asking.)

I'm willing to believe that last as the reason Davos has not asked, but it is unbelievable -- if it is any other reason -- that Davos would not have asked specifically "What happened?  How did she die?" for a lot of reasons, mainly because when a person loves another person, that is what they would do.  

paramitch and I have discussed why the show has not given us that scene yet and my position has been that it is because Davos will have to confront how much he has done in support of making Stannis King that went against who he is as a person.  That when he finds out Mel burned Shireen to try and make Stannis King, there is a list of things that Davos has also done, including leaving Shireen there in the first place.  So there are guilt related reasons but still, they're trolling the audience by spinning it out to the season finale.  

Also a big part of the objection to how the Direwolves are treated in the show lies in the fact that they are barely used for anything other than horrific shock value.  Now that's partially done because of CGI and budget constraints, but lobbing the head out?  Fan trolling.  

Fan trolling just means doing things to get a rise out of the fans without significant story reason.  Small John was right there.  The only reason the script has Sansa and Jon question if Ramsay even has Rickon -- because they have believed he has up until that point, so for real, that is class A fan trolling, the 101 example -- is so that they can have the second closeup in the season of Shaggydog's head. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by stillshimpy

[ChromaKelly]

I'm relieved the Starks finally have Winterfell back. That was a long time coming. The battle was gruesome, tense, and well done. I almost thought there was a chance that Jon was going to die. I know, remote but in the back of my head I was like, that would be very GoT for Jon to be revived only to die from being suffocated while the armies battle above him.

Having said that, the show is sorely missing the whole The North Remembers element of the books. I'm generally fine with the show putting their own spin on things, but this I don't understand. I was holding out hope that the Shaggydog head was a trick and the Umbers were still loyal. I didn't need Frey Pies in the show but just a glimmer of hope that some of the houses were still loyal to the Starks. I miss the Manderlys.

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by ChromaKelly

[Mathius]

33 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Yes, and here's the thing about Sansa telling Jon or not: Unless LF had replied and said I am coming (did he? if so, I missed it), what difference would it have made to tell Jon? Jon wouldn't have known whether LF was coming, or when, so ... just wait indefinitely, then? Jon would have attacked, anyway.

The bigger issue is Jon's total lack of strategy or acumen. That's what doomed them, not the fact Jon went ahead w/o knowledge of LF.

EXACTLY.  Jon knowing about the Vale wouldn't have prevented him from making that mistake, that was all due to him getting overemotional about his brother's death despite Sansa warning him that it would happen and that he can't let it make him do what Ramsay expects him to do.  If anything, knowing about the Vale (which Sansa didn't even know was a guarantee given how she shut down LF before) might have caused Jon to let it slip to Ramsay in either words or behavior in battle, and Ramsay would have countered it.  The element of surprise was crucial here.

Also, it's a moot point in the books since Sansa would have first reunited with Jon at this point, coming in with the army.  She would not have been present to not tell him anything, that was all due to the show's alterations to her story.   So you can definately blame this one on D&D.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Mathius

[screamin]

13 hours ago, Alapaki said:

BTW, they never explained Ramsay's rationale for deciding to meet Jon's army in the open field when it would've made much more sense to defend the attack from within the walls of Winterfell (with, perhaps, the cavalry making a flanking attack once they were engaged.

Even if he gives up the tactical advantage of the walls of Winterfell, he still has the advantage in numbers of men. A siege is inconvenient, with the potential of leaving him pent up for weeks without the capacity to keep his heavy hand of authority on his bannermen, who all dislike and distrust him, and might decide at some point to change sides. Besides, he's impatient and thinks that with the advantage in numbers and the emotional hook of his hostage he can lure Jon into a stupid mistake and slaughter them all. It nearly worked.

I'm guessing that the writers are going to explain Sansa's silence by having her say that she was hoping against hope that Jon could prevail without LF's help, so that she wouldn't have to pay the price LF would demand for his help - her hand in marriage. As to why she did not tell Jon and his men that LF's help was an option at all? I'm guessing she was afraid Jon and his men would think giving her hand in marriage to LF would be a small price to pay to avoid the greater casualties they would suffer in trying to take down Ramsey on their own.

Now, WE know Jon would never insist on Sansa marrying someone she didn't want to, but does Sansa know that, even with Jon's demonstrated affection for her? Has she reason to think that he'd sacrifice his beloved comrades-in-arms in greater numbers just to keep her from an unwanted marriage? After all, in that world, it's the womenfolk's accepted role to give themselves to unwanted marriages to form alliances to keep their menfolk from dying in war. Her desire to avoid that, to tell LF where he can stuff his army, would be looked at as antisocial and selfish.

But even if she did tell Jon, and he DID take her side, and agree with her to take LF's troops and then double-cross him out of his desired payoff - how could she look at Jon - straight-arrow, plainspoken Jon, so like Ned - and believe that he could best LF at the art of the double-cross, especially once he has LF's superior armies all around him and owes them victory? Far better to hope that they could take Winterfell without LF's help and deal with LF from a position of strength instead of weakness.

But when she saw that the battle-plan they'd drawn up required for its success that Ramsey make a stupid mistake out of anger (charge at Jon's protected position) which she knows is not Ramsey's style, AND that Jon NOT make a stupid charge out of anger, no matter what lure or provocation Ramsey offers (and Ramsey has Rickon to offer it) she realizes Jon has no chance of success without LF. IMO, once Jon saw the death of Rickon, he should've run back to his battle lines and not made a hopeless stand that lured the rest of his army from their fortified position to slaughter. But that's not the kind of man Jon is.

As for the notion that if she'd accepted LF's demand early on, and told Jon about it, she would've saved the bulk of Jon's army? I'd guess no matter what battle plans Jon and his comrades drew up with LF, he would've made sure that Jon's army would take the brunt of the combat with Ramsey. LF likes to deal from a position of strength and safety.

I'd say what happens now will really show whether Sansa has truly turned to the Drak side or not. At this point she HAS to warn Jon about exactly HOW dangerous LF is. I'd guess LF's plan is to marry Sansa and crown her as his puppet-Queen in the North, then use the Vale forces to make further land-grabs, maybe cutting a deal with Dorne or with the Tyrells to get them to stand down from any defense of KL in exchange for the  safety of Margaery and Loras. Jon is an impediment to his plans, as Ned's son - even if illegitimate, he still has a claim to the North. If Sansa works against LF, covertly or otherwise, to protect Jon and the rest of her family, she'll still be one of the Good Guys. If she lets LF lull her into being his passive pawn again with all the lovely plans for vengeance he plans to wreak on the Freys and the Lannisters - she will have become a villain.

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I actually like the writers of this series in a lot of ways, but yeah, I think they do troll the fans sometimes.  

I don't know, I think even that is giving them too much credit. I really doubt all of these gaps in plot and character motivations are intentional trolling; I think it's mostly just carelessness.

1 hour ago, benteen said:

The inability of the writers to allow Jon to verbally defend himself is really annoying.

This frustrates me to no end; I don't understand why Jon seems so dumbed down lately. Is this supposed to be related to some change in him post-resurrection? I think a big part of the reason this whole battle for Winterfell plot has fallen flat for me is because I can't get a handle on Jon or Sansa. What are their true motivations? How are they actually feeling about reclaiming their home, and about each other? What comes next now that they've taken Winterfell back? None of it is clear and it prevents me from feeling emotionally connected to any of it.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

There were no negatives to Roose slaughtering Northerners at the Red Wedding

See Lannister, Tywin.  You reap what you sow and if you sow a complete disregard for societal conventions, don't be surprised if your bastard stabs you to death and then feeds your wife and true born son to the dogs.

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

The show's final statement on those topics is that the Bolton methods worked beautifully

Quote

Your words will disappear.
Your house will disappear.
Your name will disappear.
All memory of you will disappear - Sansa Stark

Speaking of Tywin, the thought of that would horrify him.  And Roose too, I expect.

2 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Ramsay, on the other hand, wasn't shown making a single mistake: everything he did was a success, and even losing his Stark bride due to his cruelty turned out to be no loss since the North doesn't want to be ruled by the Starks

Losing Sansa turned out to be a pretty big mistake.  I don't think Littlefinger would have gone North to save Jon's bony ass.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Constantinople