S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[VCRTracking]

I do want Arya to come back and there be reunion and not because it would be happy but because they've all changed so much that at this point it's more interesting than keeping them separate.

Edited June 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Hanahope]

I do kindof like the plot that women are becoming the heads of their respective lands, or are fighting for that right.

I thought it unclear that Tyrion knew what happened to Theon and obviously Theon wasn't about to volunteer that info.

I have to wonder where Ramsay learned how to be a strategic genius.  He won against Stanis primarily because he had more troops.  While had had more troops against Jon, he showed (or we got to see) a lot more actual strategy, the taunting, the arrows, the body wall and collapsing kettle.  To my knowledge, its not like he grew up at Roose's knee learning strategy tips, he wasn't part of Robb's armies, so where did he learn such strategy.

That said, I don't know why Jon didn't use the wildling's guerrilla tactics more.  Engaging an army you know is twice your size is akin to suicide.   

[kittykat]

In the end I'm happy the Starks won, or got a bailout if we want to be technical.  They were facing some impossible odds and yeah Ramsay led Jon right into that trap.  Whatever he's his father's son (whichever one it turns out to be both fit the profile).  I know people will be mad about LF saving them and Sansa putting faith in him.  But then again there are people out there who think Sansa can do no right because of her actions from the goddamn second episode of the series.  I personally love how she's grown.  It's been a very rough journey.  I thought she emoted well in her scenes with Iwan.  Just the physical sight of him made her sick.

As far as the North forgetting, yeah I haven't been happy with that development.  I don't want to try and make excuses for the writers but the main dissent on the Starks seems to be the collaboration with the Wildlings as opposed to blaming them for the Red Wedding.  Now that the blood has been shed, I don't know where it goes from here.  Maybe Manderley and Cerwyn make some kind of amends but I hope there's a scene where Sansa and Jon are all "Oh NOWWWW you show up.  We're good kthnxbai!"  But of course that won't happen because...Stark Honor!  I'm sure the North will be forgiven and that fact that they let the Boltons, the true traitors of the Red Wedding, rule the roost for so long be forgiven.  I don't want that but I'm resigned to it.  All that matters now is that the North will unite and hopefully fully realize the the Wights, not the Wildlings are the enemy.

I still loved last night.  I understands people's concerns and gripes on how it all played out but that last thirty minutes was still some of the most intense filming I've seen in a while.  The one track, the suffocating shot.  I'm still very satisfied by it all.

[Skeeter22]

I do think the contrast between Mereen and Winterfell was interesting. Dany won easily, with no losses to her side. She picked up a new ally, who she decided to trust after a short conversation and a handshake. I can't imagine a scenario where Dany doesn't swoop into Westeros and get everything she wants. Meanwhile, the Starks won the battle, but suffered huge losses. Rickon is dead. Sansa and Jon have had to pay for every inch of progress they've made. They now have an uneasy alliance with Littlefinger, who wants more than they can give. 

 

On one side, we got war as chaos and grime and misery. On the other side, Dragons!! If the show weren't so inconsistent, I'd be sure they were trying to tell us something.

[Oscirus]

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Losing Sansa turned out to be a pretty big mistake.  I don't think Littlefinger would have gone North to save Jon's bony ass.

Little Finger was always going to go north because he wanted that wardenship. Ironically enough, the only person that got screwed by Ramsay losing Sansa was Little Finger since there's no way that anybody's respecting his wardenship now.

[kittykat]

Not to mention he told that to Cersei way back in mid S5 before her arrest.  She has no power in KL right so his bid for the Warden position was always an empty wish.  He was also banking on Stannis doing most of the dirty work on the Boltons and that failed miserably.  Despite this one good deed (which will come at a price) Littlefinger hasn't exactly been executing his schemes all that well recently.  I think his role in Ned's downfall will be revealed sometime in S7-1.

[Andromeda]

11 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

I agree.  They had all that time before the battle... they could have at least tried to send a team to smuggle Rickon out, a team that was willing to face grave consequences if they were caught.

They also suggested, but never followed through, with the idea that some of Bolton's forces would switch sides. Especially when Bolton was letting arrows rain down on them, you'd think they'd have a change of heart.

[zulualpha]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

This is the problem with dumping Sansa in the Northern plot. They had to give her a good empowerment storyline because they had her raped last season and got a ton of backlash for that. So this season it was about Sansa being all wise and a player and dealing with her rape.  What then to do with Jon? He became a secondary character in his own plot and just walked around with a hangdog expression and no seemed to care that he was resurrected or that he broke his NW vows and is a deserter.  Since Sansa is already in the North, they have to bring LF and the Vale to her. So they have the North not supporting the Starks, Sansa holding back Vale info because she apparently knows more than Jon about battle strategy and Jon using bad battle strategy so that LF/Vale can save the day.

The North plot was what I was looking forward to in season 6 and it's been one of the worst parts of this season. Not as bad as Dorne but getting there. Jon's characterization is a mess, his resurrection plot was anti-climatic and the Northern houses suck. Sansa got a good resolution to her season 5 Jeyne Poole arc though so there's that. She got to kill Ramsay and all that. I don't see any of this happening in the books.

Great post Anamika.  What would have been a really good empowerment storyline, imo, would have been Sansa not sinking to Ramsay's level of brutality.  Sansa watching Ramsay get eaten by his dogs and apparently enjoying it puts her right there with him in terms of moral character.  Ramsay should have been tried and executed (or Jon should have been allowed to beat him to death in the one on one battle that Ramsay invited), but no the show had to have Sansa get her own brand of justice.  For me, Daenerys wins the episode for listening to Tyrion and not raining death on the slave cities that revolted.  

Loved the battle scenes and the horses!  There was one scene where the camera captured  a side shot of a group of horses galloping abreast and it was so beautiful.  I love seeing the horses and I'm so glad they all have jobs.  Horses need to work and earn their keep 'cause they're expensive!  I'd like to learn more about how they shoot the scenes with the horses appearing to collide or getting stabbed and going down.  The action is so realistic but of course it can't be real.

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, zulualpha said:

Sansa watching Ramsay get eaten by his dogs and apparently enjoying it puts her right there with him in terms of moral character.  

I don't think so at all.  Watching someone who is a sociopathic, cruel, butcher who murdered your brother and raped you numerous times get killed by dogs is not at all the same as watching a completely innocent person get mauled/eaten by dogs, which Ramsay did several times.

[nksarmi]

I'm positive this will all play out differently in the books, but the one thing that won't surprise me at all is IF Littlefinger and the Vale do play some part in helping Jon in the North. I suppose the show could have just changed LF's story because they like the character and want to keep him around. But I've always said I could see him being part of this until at least the Great War with the Others begin. Besides, we always knew LF put Sansa with the Boltons on the show to take the North - he apparently just miscalculated in not knowing how depraved Ramsey was.

And I don't care how much help or whose help they got - Jon and Sansa are together and retook Winterfell - hell yea! I can't even be upset about Rickon since he was essentially a plot device on the show and he is practically a non-entity in the books. There are times I feel that GRRM creates a character just to kill them and it seems as if Rickon might fall into that category. I refuse to let my feelings of happiness for a Jon/Sansa victory go because of cheap manipulation. I felt more when the giant died though I wasn't overly surprised about that either.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

But he did ask her (at the end of last season) about Shireen -- after Stannis' battle when Mel showed up alone -- and then Jon died.  And he asked her again post-resurrection, and then Brienne interrupted.  I think it's perfectly normal for him to believe Shireen and Selyse died in or just after the battle, because apparently everyone else in Stannis' army did.  (Or, also, plausible, he unconsciously knew what Stannis what going to do when Stannis sent him away, and his own guilt stops him from asking.)

In the same vein, GRRM does his own trolling with his subversion of tropes, grimdark, etc -- Martin's whole schtick is that events don't turn out as expected, there is no poetic justice, the good guys die, the bad guys like Ramsay manage to succeed against all our moral outrage, maybe even that the North remembers how Robb screwed up and nothing else.   (I'm predicting Ramsay dies in Bookworld by something so mundane as breaking his neck while falling off his horse rushing away from the battlefield.)  

Also, I know people are irritated at the direwolves but I keep asking - Lady's dead in the books, Nymeria is wild in the books (or dead, if you don't think that's Nymeria leading the wolved in AFFC)), Grey Wind is dead in the books, Rickon's wolf is called Shaggydog for heaven's sake -- he'll be dead before too long.  My own theory is that the Starks can't survive in the new post-Ned world unless they let go everything it means to be Starks, and the direwolves are the very symbol of Starkness...so I can't get too upset about the wolves.  Eh.  It's just me.  

I don't have a lot of hope for any of the dire wolves either but actually hope that when GRRM said the ending of his saga will be"bitter-sweet", that means the "good guys" (I.e., remaining Starks) will have at least a hopeful ending and a chance to rebuild after the human wars and the Other-apocalypse. So far the books are at least as unrelentingly grim as the TV series, although in different ways for some characters. I would hate the series if the ending is that the Starks' honor and a lasting Peace are things of the past and all there is to look forward to is a brutal, soulless cold death or a world devoid of virtues such as personal honor, compassion and mercy. I'll feel the same way about the TV series if it comes to that. There's got to be some relief for the reader/audience. 

That said, we had to tolerate seasons worth of Bolton betrayal, brutality and slaughter and seeming cunning above all others, and yet both Boltons are now dead in a manner fitting to their own crimes. There does seem to be some comeuppance for the evil-doers. Honestly, without that I wouldn't be able to watch this show anymore. 

[benteen]

Jon has been bad at verbal defending himself since he was the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  In the books, he never really tried to defend his actions either but I always wrote that more of as confidence boarding on arrogance.  I don't see that with Show Jon at all here.

A marriage between Sansa and Robin would make political sense, shoring up an alliance between Winterfell and the Vale.  But Littlefinger wants Sansa and most definitely wants the power being her husband will give him.  Lord Protector of the North/Warden of the North. etc.  No doubt he'll make some kind of move on Jon in the process.  I would think the basic structure right now is Sansa as Lady of the North and Jon as Warden of the North.  Although I wouldn't mind seeing Tormund as Warden of the North. ;)

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Jon was always going to save his little brother.  Everybody can argue the stupidity over it, but that's Jon he's not going to sit back and watch as his brother's brutally murdered. I don't see how anybody can be expected to do something like that.

Yeah, as ill-advised as his move was, I don't blame him for this at all and it wouldn't have felt right for him not to try at all.

I suspect Littlefinger hasn't brought Robin and Lord Royce up with him though I can't be sure.  Can we at least get Ser Lothor Brune as a new character next season?  He's LF's man but I always liked the character.

[bunnyblue]

Tyrion needs to get working on constructing some sort of saddle for Dany when she rides Drogon. When Drogon was burning the ships, he reared up and Dany looked like she was hanging on for dear life. It would've been morbidly hilarious if she'd slid right off and into the water. 

Rhaegal and Viserion looked pretty good for having been locked up under the Great Pyramid all these months. Seeing them easily break free made me wonder why they waited so long to do it after Tyrion unchained them. It was still a great visual, though, seeing them join their brother as he flew over them.

The North and Jon are my favorite storyline but this new dynamic in Meereen with Dany, Tyrion, Yara, and Theon (and dragons!) has the potential to become my 2nd favorite. Especially once/if they set sail for Westeros. Please, Gods, let us be done with Essos after next week.

It's a shame Smalljon Umber sided with Ramsay because he had the makings of a great character. I loved his intro in 6x03 and loved him this episode. This guy has serious presence and was a true warrior, like his father. I mean, shit, he almost got the best of Tormund! He could have been a great asset in the war against the WW but he chose to betray the Starks. Kudos to the actor for making care about a 'bad guy' in his brief time on the show.

[VCRTracking]

I was shocked at how brilliant Ramsay's tactics were but the truth is from the beginning Ramsay has  been smart as much as he is sadistic. He's not just smart just in comparison to Joffrey but smart period. There are reasons why this has been overlooked and why when it happens his intelligence it's a surprise. First that he was just a "lowly bastard", not a lord like his father Roose or Tywin Lannister. I also think  with at least Tywin and Roose we get to appreciate their intelligence because of their personalities. Tywin's blunt pragmatism and Roose's drollness make you respect them even if you hated them. Ramsay has the smirking and arrogance that make Cersei annoying. He can at least back it up but it's still annoying.

Edited June 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, mac123x said:

I noticed that Tyrion dropped the foreshadowing anvil about the wildfire in Kings Landing pretty heavily.  I'm a little surprised that Jaime had told him about it, since S3 Jaime-in-the-bathtub-with-Brienne seemed like he'd never told anyone.

I'm guessing Jaime and Tyrion had that discussion while Tyrion was in jail in season 4.

[benteen]

Book Ramsay always had a strong amount of low-cunning, which Show Sansa acknowledges.  Book Ramsay never had a tactical mind but could play the long game very well and adjust on the fly just as well.  Here his penchant for mind games, combined with superior numbers, almost won him the battle.

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

But how much loyalty did Ramsey hope to preserve by sending his cavalry (which, I'm presuming, was made up most of non-Boltons) into the kill-zone of his archers?

Traditionally, archers would be used to either soften up the enemy before a charge, or the thin out a charging mass of troops, not to fire into a commingled mass of the enemy and one's own men.  (given the speculation that a Northern Lord would "switch sides", I was thinking that would be the trigger for it).

It's one thing to hunker down and wait for some amorphous enemy who may or may not decide to attack.  But when you know that the enemy is massed for assault in a location that really couldn't sustain them (which meant the enemy was either going to assault or retreat in short order) the smart strategy is to stay behind your walls and let the walls do the work.  (*my one caveat here would be the question of whether Ramsey knew Jon had Wun-Wun.  Because having a giant who can take that sort of punishment gives the attacker a force-multiplier that would improve their odds against a fortified castle considerably.).

As far as SANSA, count me on the "con" side.  She knew the biggest weakness in the plot to retake Winterfell was the lack of manpower, because she brought it up in Every. Single. Discussion. with Jon.  Was she waiting to Jon to ask her specifically about whether she knew of any other large force massed and ready to help?  Because if so, that was pretty passhole-aggresshole of her.  

I mean, would it killed her to have said (even just privately to Jon, away from the others) "you know, by the by, a couple of days/weeks ago this guy who's kind of running the Vale and who helped me escape Kings Landing offered to lend the Vale's Army.  He's not really trustworthy, but it might be something you guys might want to look into before starting a battle in which you're pretty likely to get slaughtered."

She acted like she thought she was another Clauswitz or Sun Tzu when she told Jon that the enemy is going to try to use deception, etc.  And I doubt that she was able to sneak off overnight, find Littlefinger (who would possibly still be at Moat Caitlin), take him up on his offer (which you know at this point is going to come with a whole lot of conditions that it wouldn't have at Mole Town), agree, and have that Army prepped for battle and, conduct a forced march, and be ready to enter the fray on less than 12 hours' notice.  I'm guessing she'd gotten some sort of response from Littlefinger and was planning on being the "savior" of the battle.

I'm happy that Sansa had her victory over Ramsay but otherwise she annoyed me this episode and throughout a big chunk of this season. She's the one who brings up a lack of manpower on more than one occasion and she's the one who wants to be listened to, but she doesn't think it's a good idea to bring up something that could be crucial to saving all of their lives? And we're just supposed to excuse that because she's 'been through so much'? 

It doesn't seem like Sansa understood Lyanna Mormont at all when Lyanna said that she, Lyanna, was personally responsible for the people on Bear Island. If they'd known that there was the possibility of help from the Vale soldiers, perhaps Jon, Davos, and co. would have chosen to do things differently. Sansa doesn't seem like she was thinking about her people at all in her decision to keep silent. She could have made it clear that she's uncertain if that's what the issue was but to keep silent suggests to me that she was primarily concerned about herself. 

I think it's disloyal of Sansa to ask Jon to fight and die for her if necessary but then isn't willing to trust him with something so important. He's willing to give up everything for her if necessary even though part of him wanted to simply walk away from fighting altogether. She can't even offer him some hope that they aren't outnumbered in their fight? Not only that but she throws it in his face that he's incapable of protecting her (or himself), she makes it seem like he's unwise to put trust in Davos, the criticizes their efforts in raising northern troops, and she doesn't look to herself at all in areas where it would benefit her to listen and understand where her people are coming from. She just wants blind loyalty and doesn't seem as willing to be a team player. 

I was also sad to see that Jon seemed more concerned about Rickon's body than Sansa did. I know, I know, everyone handles grief differently, but on top of her other behavior it just annoyed me. 

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Sansa wants to know why the men in the North don't want to fight for House Stark?  Maybe it's because she's willing to send them to their death while she doesn't reveal that she has access to a secret army on the side for reasons unknown.  Seriously, I don't think I'm as mad by the whole thing as I should be because I truly do not understand what the writers were going for by having Sansa without this information except creating artificial drama.

How does she not owe it to the people who have sworn to fight for her family and give their lives up in the attempt? The men from Bear Island might have been completely wiped out and she's patting herself on the back because she and Littlefinger showed up before Jon and a handful of others were completly annihilated.  

I really wish that she'd trusted Jon more. I think he's earned it at this poimt.

[screamin]

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

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Jon was always going to save his little brother.  Everybody can argue the stupidity over it, but that's Jon he's not going to sit back and watch as his brother's brutally murdered. I don't see how anybody can be expected to do something like that.

Yeah, as ill-advised as his move was, I don't blame him for this at all and it wouldn't have felt right for him not to try at all.

I don't blame him for riding forward to try to save Rickon. However, once Rickon was down and dead, from a military point of view Jon should have immediately turned tail and run back toward his own lines. He was on the outer range of arrows - running full out back to his army would have taken him out of arrow range and one of his horsemen could have dashed out and given him a ride the rest of the way back to the fortified ground his army had PLANNED to wait for Ramsey's attack on.

But to run back after seeing Rickon die would've taken a cold-bloodedness that Jon just doesn't possess.

[proserpina65]

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I just watched the Anatomy of a Scene for the Battle of Winterfell and the whole point was to make the battle scene as realistically close to a medieval battlefield as possible. MMV on whether or not they succeeded.

My medieval history degree says they succeeded as much as was possible without actually killing the actors and extras.  The cavalry work alone was stunning.

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BTW, they never explained Ramsay's rationale for deciding to meet Jon's army in the open field when it would've made much more sense to defend the attack from within the walls of Winterfell (with, perhaps, the cavalry making a flanking attack once they were engaged.

Hubris due to his knowledge of his superior numbers.

[VCRTracking]

Yeah I didn't expect Jon to go back but I was still like Tormund saying "Don't do it!"

When Jon says he's "seen and fought worse than Ramsay Bolton" I believe him because we've all seen it. When Sansa says he "you don't know Ramsay" I believe her too, because we've witnessed it. They're both right. Jon has experienced horror of a nature that Sansa's hasn't and Sansa experienced a level of psychological cruelty on a human level Jon hasn't.  The circumstances at the moment favored Sansa. When it comes to Ramsay, I say "Listen to Sansa!". When it comes to Whitewalkers(which is probably soon) I'm going to say "Listen to Jon!". Both have biases. Sansa followed Catelyn's way of not seeing Jon as part of the family and that influenced her not fully trusting him. It wasn't just Littlefinger casually calling Jon her "half-brother". It was always there. Jon sees Sansa as the girl who wanted to be a lady as opposed to a fighter like Arya. Someone who needs protecting and not listened to when it comes to fighting a battle.

In terms of dealing with the Northern houses both were clueless because Jon was a bastard looking to a future at the Night's Watch and Sansa aspiring to be a lady to be married off in the South. Neither of them expected to be be in a position of power in the North. Neither of them even considered it until they got the letter from Ramsay.

Edited June 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[WatchrTina]

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I hope Dany keeps listening to Tyrion, though

Maybe I give Dany too much credit but when she asked Tyrion, basically "Why shouldn't I go all scorched earth on my enemies?" I got the feeling she was just throwing that idea out there as a "straw man" argument as a means of encouraging him to articulate the counter-argument.  But I may be giving her too much credit -- she DID seem to enjoy the reaction of the Dothraki when she went all "scorched earth" on all the Khals.

[stillshimpy]

So the front-page recap made me laugh aloud three different times, it's really nicely done.  Rapey vs. Mopey.  Snerk. 

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

How does she not owe it to the people who have sworn to fight for her family and give their lives up in the attempt? The men from Bear Island might have been completely wiped out and she's patting herself on the back because she and Littlefinger showed up before Jon and a handful of others were completly annihilated.  

I really wish that she'd trusted Jon more. I think he's earned it at this poimt.

WE know Jon wouldn't want to force her to marry LF just to get the aid of the Vale troops. But Sansa can't be sure that given the choice between sacrificing a great many of his own men to win the battle on his own and asking HER to do what is considered a proper lady's duty in that society - marrying an ally to secure his support - he won't be pressured by his men into pressuring her to agree to save their lives.

I think the writers intend that Sansa's preference was to try to see if they could win Winterfell without LF, so that they could deal with him from a position of strength...and therefore she would not need to bribe him with a marriage to her. When she saw Jon would likely fall for Ramsey's tricks, she went to LF to save something.

Yes, she should've leveled with Jon about exactly what she was up against with LF, and even taken the risk that he would say, "Okay, I get that he's treacherous, but I'll keep an eye on him to make sure he won't mistreat you...can't you take one for the team?" But even if Jon had followed the best case scenario of saying, "Okay, I believe you that he is EXACTLY as sneaky and bad as you say. Let's figure out how we can get him to give us his troops' support without giving him you," - how likely is it that Honest Jon can successfully double-cross LF the Master Double-Crosser? IMO, with LF in absolute command of the Vale troops, LF would always have allowed Jon's army to take the brunt of Ramsey's attack before riding to the rescue...he doesn't want any kind of challenge to his bid for power in the North - and Jon as son of Ned (even a bastard one) is a threat he'd want to weaken as much as possible.

[Alapaki]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing evidence of this "Ramsey Bolton, Super-Military-Genius"

in addition to giving up the benefit of a fortified castle, he:

1. Apparently held no forces in reserve, other than what appeared to be a skeleton force back in Winterfell;

2. Failed to dig trenches, erect abatis, or take any other steps to make the terrain less hospitable to am infantry assault;

3. Apparently deployed no scouts or skirmishes to make sure no forces were trying to sneak up THE BIG FUCKING PLAIN THAT FUNNELS DIRECTLY INTO THE HEART OF THE BATTLEFIELD;

4. Prepared no boiling tar, murder-holes, or anything else to repel attackers from the walls of Winterfell other than leaving a few archers behind.

i guess he was too busy erecting burning crucified corpses on the battlefield, which, by the way, is only guaranteed to motivate your enemy to fight until the death since it pretty much takes away the option of surrender.

I'd say Ramsey got his Genius Degree from the same school as Wile E. Coyote.

[Helena Dax]

Can`t read everything so forgive me if i'm repeating things. Imo, Sansa didn't tell Jon because she didn't know if LF would arrive in time and because she realized that if Jon knew about them, he would be obvious about it. Ramsay needed to believe that there wasn't any surprise coming. And wow, I LOVED what she did to Ramsay. The way she smiled at the end... Like a boss, Sansa! That was the most cathartic death I've seen in this show.

Also loved the Meereen part. I'm starting to recognize Dany's "I'm about to fuck you dry" smile, heh. Watching the dragons in action was awesome and I also enjoyed a lot the scene with Theon and Yara. Although I can't believe they expected to be allowed to attack the Seven Kingdoms when they felt like it. I mean, really? Why would anyone allow that?

Poor Rickon. His death wasn't a surprise, but... I wonder what will happen now. I guess Winterfell belongs to Sansa right now; I don't think Jon's interested in being a lord. And  we need to find out about LF's plans.

[WatchrTina]

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[That depiction of] kettling may have been the most terrifying piece of performance I've seen because damn, that was too realistic. I've been kettled, once, by a hostile but not actively murderous modern police force with a much higher level of jobsworth than a medieval-ish army. And with all of the protections of modernity, once inside the kettle, one gets really aware that this crowd is about this || far from panic and breaking into a stampede and crushing some significant fraction of the group.

Today I learned "Kettling" is a real thing, though not a medieval tactic like I expected (unless that was just overlooked in this article.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling

[Hanahope]

3 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I guess Winterfell belongs to Sansa right now; I don't think Jon's interested in being a lord.

I can't recall if the show depicted Robb making Jon his heir, but it is in the books.  Even if is in the show, did anyone survive who witnessed it?  Does making him the 'heir' give him full right to Winterfell and the Stark name?  Obviously, everyone assumes he's Ned's son, and given that he just defeated Ramsay, I would expect the Lords will be just fine if Jon took the Stark name and 'legitimized' himself (even if that's not exactly his correct parentage - no one we've seen knows this).  Bonus points if Sansa supports him.

[vibeology]

Agreed, @Alapaki. I don't see much genius there. Ramsay benefitted from inheriting the far greater numbers and he's a sadistic freak who knows how to get inside his enemy's head. He's also shown that he's damn good at guerilla warfare both in taking Winterfell and in leading the attack with House 20GoodMen on Stannis' camp. That doesn't mean he knows much of anything about battle strategy and in fact it makes sense that he doesn't. He wasn't raised by Roose and he wouldn't have been trained in this sort of fighting or history from a young age. The idea that he just doesn't really know about battle and made rookie mistakes while still being good at what he does know makes a great deal of sense. He's got some serious innate sense about how to fight and is very good at not playing by the rules but he lost because he made a few poor decisions like not having scouts at his rear and failing to fortify Winterfell.

I imagine if Ramsay had actually grown up by his father's side and actually been taught strategy he'd be one of the best military leaders in the kingdoms but I think he makes sense that he has gaps in his knowledge.

[VCRTracking]

He also does things nobody else would like order arrows shot at the two cavalries skirmishing even though he would kill his own men.

[benteen]

I expect Sansa is Lady of Winterfell but Jon might be the Warden of the North.

[Chris24601]

13 hours ago, J----av said:

 Not really sure what you were watching. Sansa seemed smarter back in Kings Landing. Her withholding the info about the Knights of The Vale cost her and Jon a few thousand men

Wow did I get behind. But I wanted to bring this up because its just not true. It couldn't have cost Jon a few thousand men because he only had about 2500 to begin with and there were plenty of his men still left in that circle when the Vale Knights rode in (its difficult to do a headcount, but probably about a thousand were still alive and encircled) and later seen streaming into Winterfell after Jon, Tormund and Wun Wun.

And here's the thing about that... They were ALWAYS going to lose a lot of men.

They were outnumbered more than 2-to-1. Even if Jon's forces took out four men for every one they lost they'd still have lost 1500 men in that battle before it was all over unless Ramsey's men quit the field after their initial losses (unlikely given that Ramsey's plan involved firing on his own men).

Ironically, despite its losses, Jon's army probably would have lost even more than they did if they'd stuck to the plan but Littlefinger didn't show up to help.

13 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Oh but the armor!  I loved Jon's battle clothes.  With his man bun it felt very Japanese.  We were talking about how little armor most the characters had really.  Brienne is one of the few characters who wears the full get-up.  And I guess Jamie has that awesome chest-plate, but most of them are in hardened leather outfits.

Another older comment that I really wanted to correct because I'm something of a medieval weapons and armor aficionado.

Jon's armor isn't boiled leather (boiled leather is stiff to the point of immovability). Notice the rivets on the corners of each of the squares on his coat? Each square actually has a metal plate underneath (the confusion over this is what led to the concept of "studded leather" in games like D&D).

The armor type Jon (and all the Winterfell forces seen previously) is wearing is actually called variously a coat-of-plates or brigandine and was a real form of armor used in the transitional period between mail armors and full plate harnesses. While its not as good as a plate harness, for the areas it covers its easily as good as mail armor and was far easier to make and repair.

While he really needed a helmet (its absence being due to the needs of cinematics over realism), Jon is actually pretty well armored for an infantryman of the period.

Now, to be fair; the odds are good that the plates in the costume are actually plastic (or just stiff leather) because Kit Harrington having to do stunts in the actual metal stuff would be impractical. But the rivets on each of the squares is a dead giveaway to the type of armor it is meant to be inside the story.

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Although I wouldn't mind seeing Tormund as Warden of the North. ;)

At least make him a lord.  There should be a couple of empty castles lying about now -- I don't know if there are any remaining Karstarks or Umbers, but the Boltons are extinguished, so give him the Dreadfort.  Though rename it.  "Tormund Giantsbane, Lord of the Happyfort.  And his wife, Lady Brienne."

[WatchrTina]

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Jon was always going to save his little brother.  Everybody can argue the stupidity over it, but that's Jon he's not going to sit back and watch as his brother's brutally murdered.

In a way, Jon running to save Rickon is equivalent to his declaration that he was going to ride to save (faux)Arya in the books -- the decision that led to his murder in the book-verse.  Yeah, Jon is always going to try to save his family if he can.

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The show is sorely missing the whole The North Remembers element of the books. I'm generally fine with the show putting their own spin on things, but this I don't understand. I was holding out hope that the Shaggydog head was a trick and the Umbers were still loyal. I didn't need Frey Pies in the show but just a glimmer of hope that some of the houses were still loyal to the Starks. I miss the Manderlys.

You said it.  We got one housemaid who said that line and she wound up flayed.  Where ARE the Manderlys?  Nowhere I guess.  Davos didn't pass through there on his way to the Wall and as far as we know, no Manderly heirs are being held captive by the Freys because they never showed up for the Red Wedding, did they?  Have they even been mentioned on-screen?  Yeah, I miss the Manderly's too.  We could have done with a Frey pie.

Edited June 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Statman]

3 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Having said that, the show is sorely missing the whole The North Remembers element of the books. I'm generally fine with the show putting their own spin on things, but this I don't understand.
 

 

Besides House Manderly, what other Northern Houses has done anything to indicate that they support the North Remembers movement? 

People keep saying that the show has glossed over the North Remembers, but in the books, no one besides Manderly does jack shit to help the Starks.  Heck, that line is only said by three people in the published books (Robb, Lady Dustin, Lord Manderly) so what exactly is this "The North Remembers element" that I am missing here.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Statman

[WatchrTina]

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I just watched the Anatomy of a Scene for the Battle of Winterfell and the whole point was to make the battle scene as realistically close to a medieval battlefield as possible. MMV on whether or not they succeeded.

My medieval history degree says they succeeded as much as was possible without actually killing the actors and extras.  The cavalry work alone was stunning.

Uh, I support the decision not to kill the actors and extras.

Edited June 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[SeanC]

That dog that took a big bite out of Ramsay was an adorable, happy fella, I will say.  Not really selling being murderously hungry.

[WearyTraveler]

Just now, Statman said:

Besides House Manderly, what other Northern Houses has done anything to indicate that they support the North Remembers movement? 

People keep saying that the show has glossed over the North Remembers, but in the books, no one besides Manderly does jack shit to help the Starks.

Not true, Jon advises Stannis on how to talk to the Northern houses and all the mountain clans are with him, running to Winterfell to save "Ned's Girl".  There are passages describing how much better the Northerners were dealing with the massive amounts of snow in comparison to Stannis' mostly southern army. We don't really know how the whole thing shakes down in the books, or even if Ramsey's pink letter is real, but if Stannis loses, it will be because of the snows and the weather, not because he lacked men.  Jon told him exactly what to say and how to behave with each house and he got them.

The Manderlys are the ones we most remember because of the smart long game Manderly was playing and because of Frey Pie (it's kind of hard to forget Frey pies), but the other houses were still supportive of the Starks and answered the call.

[lmsweb]

13 hours ago, glowbug said:

Ghost was suspiciously absent from this battle. I'm sure it was all about the CGI budget but there's no way Ghost wouldn't have been there from a narrative standpoint. I'm glad he's still alive, though I don't trust these writers to keep him that way. I was very sad about Wun Wun dying and Rickon. In the show, Rickon has really served no narrative purpose and I believe it would have been better had he been left out of the show completely. I hope he does have a purpose in the books.

I don't think it was a budget or CGI issue. I think the show realized there is no conceivable way they could explain Ghost living through that battle except by keeping him out of it. Between the arrows, charging horses, etc - he would have been killed right off the bat. I fanwanked it in my own head that Jon knew Ghost would sacrifice himself for Jon and didn't want him to do that, so he left him behind with instructions to free him if Jon should die. 

That's the story I'm sticking to in my head, at any rate :)

[nachomama]

Epic!

I'm more pissed off about WunWun than Rickon, Rickon was a done deal from the beginning. Incredibly happy that Ramsay met a gruesome end, that could have kept going much longer. I kind of adore Tormund for ripping out a throat. I would have liked that by sheer ferocity and 1 awesome giant they could overcome the bigger numbers and I hate, hate, hate that Ramsay actually was quite the strategic planner but I was glad to see the Vale come rushing in. Looked pretty dire.

 

Can anyone refresh me how Davos found the stag? I'm watching on my work monitor and it's very dark and I have much glare and there's way too much dark stuff, I know what happened and Davos gon be pissssssed, but I don't quite know how he got there. please and thank you.

[kittykat]

17 minutes ago, mac123x said:

At least make him a lord.  There should be a couple of empty castles lying about now -- I don't know if there are any remaining Karstarks or Umbers, but the Boltons are extinguished, so give him the Dreadfort.  Though rename it.  "Tormund Giantsbane, Lord of the Happyfort.  And his wife, Lady Brienne."

Technically Sansa would now be Lady of the Dreadfort but she won't want it for obvious reasons.  I like the idea of giving that land to the Wildlings (Happyfort, heeeeee!)  As far as Karhold and Last Hearth go, it will depend who survives.

[Constantinople]

8 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Uh, I support the decision not to kill the actors and extras.

Sure, take the easy way out.

ART Demands SACRIFICE!

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I don't think so at all.  Watching someone who is a sociopathic, cruel, butcher who murdered your brother and raped you numerous times get killed by dogs is not at all the same as watching a completely innocent person get mauled/eaten by dogs, which Ramsay did several times.

Exactly this. Roose Bolton warned Ramsay that if he behaved like a mad dog he'd end up food for the pigs, or something similar. Ramsay was a psychopath and a sadist who took pleasure in torturing, and hunted and killed people for sport. Worse, he was a smart, manipulative psychopath with the backing of the Crown (albeit at a distance) who continued to pose a threat for as long as he remained alive. 

Sansa knew him well enough to understand that he needed to be put down like the mad dog that he was. I thought using his own bitches to do the deed was fitting.  

In view of everything Sansa has suffered, and everything she has learned from that and from watching her manipulators and abusers operate, I think she responded reasonably under the circumstances. Taking satisfaction in ridding the world of such a monster doesn't strike me as reprensible. 

[WatchrTina]

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Can anyone refresh me how Davos found the stag?

He goes for long walk (something he tells Tormund he always does the night before a battle because he can't sleep) and he walks up to the remnants of an old fire and spots it.  Somehow the wooden toy that Shireen carried into the fire didn't burn and Davos spots it in the rubble amid snow and a bunch of other charred wood.  It's pretty unlikely. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[WearyTraveler]

2 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Can anyone refresh me how Davos found the stag? I'm watching on my work monitor and it's very dark and I have much glare and there's way too much dark stuff, I know what happened and Davos gon be pissssssed, but I don't quite know how he got there. please and thank you.

Before the battle they were camping in exactly the same place where Stannis and his army were camping.  Davos went for a walk the night before the battle, after he confessed to Tormund that he could never sleep before a battle and that all he did was walk. While he strolls he sees the remnants of a pyre like the ones Melisandre uses to burn the people she sacrifices to R'hllor.  In the ashes he sees the half burnt and broken stag.  Not hard to put 2 and 2 together after that.

[Statman]

3 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Not true, Jon advises Stannis on how to talk to the Northern houses and all the mountain clans are with him, running to Winterfell to save "Ned's Girl".  There are passages describing how much better the Northerners were dealing with the massive amounts of snow in comparison to Stannis' mostly southern army. We don't really know how the whole thing shakes down in the books, or even if Ramsey's pink letter is real, but if Stannis loses, it will be because of the snows and the weather, not because he lacked men.  Jon told him exactly what to say and how to behave with each house and he got them.

The Manderlys are the ones we most remember because of the smart long game Manderly was playing and because of Frey Pie (it's kind of hard to forget Frey pies), but the other houses were still supportive of the Starks and answered the call.

I ask again, what other Northern Houses besides House Manderly did anything overtly to aid the Starks?

Jon advising Stannis about recruiting the Mountain Clans has nothing to do with the North Remembers.  Jon specifically tells Stannis that he needs to go visit the clans in person, praise them for their bravery and command them to fight for STANNIS, not the Starks.  House Glover provides some support to STANNIS only after he liberates Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn. 

Supporting Stannis, a Southerner, is not the same thing as supporting the Starks.

[Ambrosefolly]

26 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

In a way, Jon running to save Rickon is equivalent to his declaration that he was going to ride to save (faux)Arya in the books -- the decision that led to his murder in the book-verse.  Yeah, Jon is always going to try to save his family if he can.

I think that a lot of people would do what Jon did. It is pretty sad for Jon that Rickon is the second boy he could not save (if you want to count Olly in a way). Now that they introduced bring back someone from the died, why didn't Jon use Mel to try and bring Rickon back?   In doesn't have to work, but there could be an attempt.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[domina89]

Jon has a new hairstyle this season.  Jon has not been making the best decisions this season.  Coincidence?  You decide. 

I'm not sure if it is deliberate, but I find it interesting that since Sansa first appeared at Castle Black, we have had a very subdued, if not subservient, Jon.  This may be written as a reaction to his "death" (PTSD) or, possibly, it is a reaction to being around a trueborn sibling that has dismissed him and made him feel inferior most of his life.  I think as a result we have gotten a much less confident Jon this season.  It will be interesting to see how that changes if/when he discovers his true parentage, or if/when he reunites with Arya.

I'm not happy with Sansa's decision not to trust Jon with the Vale army info.  He has given her no reason not to trust him and was willing to risk everything to recover Rickon and Winterfell at her insistence.  I'm hoping the Jon/Sansa talk next week will clear up her motivation and repair some of the damage the writers have done with these characters and this storyline.   

On another note, did anyone else get nervous while Jon and company were camping overnight that Ramsay would send another "20 good men" to try to recreate the same magic as with Stannis' army?  Maybe that's why Davos decided not to sleep...

[WearyTraveler]

21 minutes ago, Statman said:

I ask again, what other Northern Houses besides House Manderly did anything overtly to aid the Starks?

Jon advising Stannis about recruiting the Mountain Clans has nothing to do with the North Remembers.  Jon specifically tells Stannis that he needs to go visit the clans in person, praise them for their bravery and command them to fight for STANNIS, not the Starks.  House Glover provides some support to STANNIS only after he liberates Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn. 

Supporting Stannis, a Southerner, is not the same thing as supporting the Starks.

I'm not going to go through the text in my kindle, so, AWOIAF will have to suffice (emphasis mine):

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Instead, Stannis travels west to take Deepwood Motte from the ironborn that hold it. Jon Snow advises him to go through the mountains north of Winterfell and win the support of the mountain clans, including the Flints, Wulls, Norreys and Liddles. The mountain clans are deeply loyal to the memory of Eddard Stark and would take pride in receiving a king. Stannis wins over several of their chiefs, such as Old Torghen Flint and Hugo "Big Bucket" Wull. With an additional three thousand men in his army, Stannis then retakes Deepwood Motte.[29] Stannis takes several ironborn captive, including Asha Greyjoy, and returns Deepwood Motte to House Glover, an act that gains him popular support in the North and earns him the support of the Glovers and House Mormont. Stannis's men are also reinforced by survivors of the battle at Winterfell who have been hiding in the wolfswood.[53] His army marches on Winterfell and is eventually joined by the forces of Arnolf Karstark and Mors Umber. However, they are slowed by relentless snowstorms.[54][24] Learning of Arnolf Karstark's planned treachery from Arnolf's niece, Alys, Jon Snow sends a message to Stannis trying to warn him.

See also, from the same website:

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Roose has a tenuous grasp over the north, considering only the Ryswells and Dustins to be loyal allies because of marriage ties. The Cerwyns, Tallharts, Umbers, and Manderlys are reluctant supporters or are outright plotting against Roose.[

Edited June 20, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[RedheadZombie]

16 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I truly was worried for Tormund when he was getting the shit beat out of him by Smalljon. I cheered so loudly when Tormund finally stabbed him to death. It was fitting that Lord Umber got killed by a Wildling. Now I hope Tormund is given the Last Hearth as a reward, so he and Brienne can start their family of ginger giants.

I love that all of Mel's visions came true!! She saw Jon fighting at Winterfell (from a distance I assume), she walked the battlements of WF, and she saw the Bolton banners falling to the ground. She was looking quite smug at the end. Unfortunately for her, it appears the jig is up next week. 

Poor Rickon. I always liked him and the actor. He got a raw deal in life. At least his older siblings had love and stability far longer than he ever did. His young life was full of loneliness, anger, fear, and loss. Seeing him pierced by those arrows, before and after death, was tough. And poor Art Parkinson didn't have one line this season.

Snipped for space.

I like your idea for Tormund, but he's already started a family.  Remember him telling Jon that he's prettier than his daughters?  And I'm convinced that Karsi was his wife.  Which would mean he's perfectly comfortable with a warrior wife.  And he and Brienne can add to his family.  What at example Brienne would be for growing wildling girls.

I didn't get the impression of smugness from Melisandre.  I think she's still confused and a little broken about how things went down with Stannis.  Even though her choker's back on, she seems like an old lady - worn and tired.  Which means (I think) that she's not going to vigorously defend herself to Davos, and will actually acknowledge it was a horrible decision.  But for some reason I feel like Davos won't kill her.  She might explain that the sacrifice of Shireen allowed for Jon's resurrection, and he may think it's for the greater good on the long night for Melisandre to live.  I also think Davos had to at least suspect what happened to Shireen due to how Stannis sent him away from camp.  Davos was suspicious at that time.

Rickon did have a horrible life, but at least he had Osha, who seemed extremely loving and protective of him.  Her death would have been like losing another mother.

16 hours ago, Oscirus said:

That bothers me. The dragons clearly didn't like captivity and Tyrion freed them a while ago. What the hell were they waiting for?

Their leader?  Maybe they've been waiting for Dany and Drogon to return.  They seem like followers. 

16 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

4.  In interviews, the actor who played Ramsay said Ramsay was affected by the deaths of his stepmother and brother, but if so, it was left on the cutting room floor.

I remember thinking Ramsay was conflicted about killing Walda and the baby.  Unlike his typical sadism, he seemed to receive no pleasure luring Walda into the kennels, and unleashing his dogs.  It was completely different from when he hunted that poor girl and sicked his dogs on her.  I think he liked Walda as best he was able, and may have enjoyed a little brother if it didn't threaten his position. 

[scottiB]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That dog that took a big bite out of Ramsay was an adorable, happy fella, I will say.  Not really selling being murderously hungry.

Absolutley. Who's a good dog? You're a good dog. I'm trying to discern if it's a mastiff or Cane Corso.

Edited June 20, 2016 by scottiB