S04.E13: Toast Can't Never Be Bread Again

[Megan]

21 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Didn't Poussey say to Judy King that her father was a major in the army. Does that mean she has been in prison long enough to get at least 3 promotions, if he is now a general?

 

I remember General? I could definitely be wrong.

[Maysie]

42 minutes ago, RCharter said:

Isn't the female guard a war vet?  She doesn't seem like the worst, she just seems like she is trying to keep her head down.

I don't have a read on her. She's the one that offered to use her interrogation methods on the inmates (which is when Caputo issued his no interrogation directive), yet she'd just been trying to yuk it up with the ladies (very awkwardly). But she also didn't think they should be allowed to dance the night they kept the lights on - she was upset at the lack of order, I guess (?)

It may be that she's not really developed as a character or it may be that it's intentional and she's kind of a victim of MCC's lack of training program/boundaries/standards, so she's all over the map with what's appropriate and what is not. Maybe we'll find out more about her next year. Whatever the case, she surely isn't in the same league as some of her peers, however she hasn't demonstrated that she'll speak up or act when she sees something obviously messed up happening. I can't remember if she said anything to Bailey when he was manhandling Poussey.

[Captanne]

Poussey's father is an Army major.

[Princess Sparkle]

1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm the one who said it and I meant that the only person who died on this show was Vee and I said in my original post that in my personal real life I didn't know anyone who liked Vee but I was saying she could have had her fans I and people I knew didn't like her. But I used her as a reference because she was the only character who died on this show before Poussays and she wasn't universely liked like Poussay was. That's what my post was saying.

We actually had an inmate death in the first season as well - Tricia, the inmate who OD'd on pills Pornstache gave her, and then he framed her death to look like a suicide.  While she wasn't as audience beloved as Poussey (probably because we didn't get to know her as well), interestingly enough, her death had the same effect on the inmates, albeit to a smaller degree - her death is what causes Red to help get Pornstache in trouble and out of Litchfield. 

[WhosThatGirl]

I totally forgot about Tricia.

[Meedis]

Wow...very powerful last two episodes.   I will definitely miss the Poussey character.    I hope Samira Riley continues to get some juicy acting roles in her future.

As a side note, it was cool to see Maritza get back at "Humps" for his diabolic act against her.   It made sense that she'd be the one to push the gun away from him though odd that she wasn't with Flaca or her normal group.   

[questionfear]

16 hours ago, RCharter said:

Just ties back into how great an idea it was on paper to hire ex-vets, but if you don't do a really good background check and psychological evaluation it could come out badly.  

Sad to say, but I think there was stuff going on in Iraq that we had no idea about.  And the longer some of those guys were over there, the more likely they were to get PTSD or some other form of trauma.  Abu Garib only came out because someone took pictures.

I bet MCC did no background checks/psych evals and Linda was clear that MCC gets more money the longer the vet was in combat.

My biggest hope would be that the press gets a hold of this and does their own background checks into the guards.  I think the longer the standoff goes on, the more likely this is to happen.

I thought they said they get more $$ if the vet has been out of work for more than a year. Which would also make sense that these vets are a bit...off, since they're all able bodied and don't appear to have any physical issues, but they clearly have major psychological problems. And if those problems include needing a certain degree of order, or being drawn towards violence, those would also explain their being out of work AND why they were attracted to a low paying prison guard job. 

[Maysie]

2 hours ago, questionfear said:

I thought they said they get more $$ if the vet has been out of work for more than a year. Which would also make sense that these vets are a bit...off, since they're all able bodied and don't appear to have any physical issues, but they clearly have major psychological problems. And if those problems include needing a certain degree of order, or being drawn towards violence, those would also explain their being out of work AND why they were attracted to a low paying prison guard job. 

I did a bit of work with a veterans group and I learned that there is somewhat of a stigma attached to Iraq combat veterans, especially if they've been diagnosed as PTSD, which is why there are hiring incentives (the Obama administration has really pushed that). I think part of it is sometimes a veteran does act out - such as the man on Mt. Rainier on New Years Eve several years ago - and it leads people to question their volatility. People refer to them as "unhinged," "crazy," "violent," etc., and to be sure, some do act out that way, but a minority of the people who served that are in that group. The negative publicity, the stories about what went on in places like the Iraqi prison - all of these things can add up and hurt a combat vet's employment prospects, right or wrong.

I know two people who served in the Iraq conflict. One suffered multiple traumatic brain injuries; he cannot concentrate on anything. Choosing a shirt can take three hours because he forgets what he's doing and literally zones out. So no, he's not real employable anywhere. The other didn't suffer any injuries but experienced dodging IEDs and watching people die (don't know what he did specifically) and though I think he has some PTSD (to the point where he will swerve to miss a plastic bag on the street when he's driving, because he learned you had to avoid any road "obstacles" in Iraq), he's fine - continuing military service, great career and will have no trouble adjusting in the civilian world when he gets out. I don't know if he'll face many of the obstacles combat veterans face when he gets out; I sense not because he's continued his service well beyond his time in combat, so it won't be the defining part of his service.

So I think the military service angle comes into play with the hiring benefit to the company - MCC. It doesn't matter who the employer is, or who it's employing; it's up to the company to do due diligence when it hires. In this case, MCC is hiring guards to watch over and protect women and so it seems to me a standard background check and proper training is in order, regardless of whether the employee is prior military or not.

Piscatella may be a great employee somewhere else, but he's not suitable for prison work and he's certainly not suitable for MCC. His military background (if he is a vet) doesn't have anything to do with whether he's a good guard at this point. It's about his personality, and he likes control - absolute control and authority, it appears - and that makes him a dangerous guard.

As for why the veterans are attracted to low-paying guard jobs . . . they may have a difficult time finding work based on the above (being viewed as a potentially unstable hire), they may not have many marketable skills or they may be attracted to jobs that will put them in control/give them authority over someone. They may also feel it will give them some element of order. Plus, free housing helps.

[RCharter]

^^and I hope that the point that it made, because I think its a very salient and important point.   I sincerely hope the takeaway isn't "well, you just can't hire war vets."  I hope the takeaway is " you can't just mindlessly hire war vets...you need to do due diligence....the same way you should with ANY candidate"

Edited June 28, 2016 by RCharter

[Thog]

I have to think Daya is thinking of Bennett as she looks at Humphrey with a gun in her hand. She's never had any opportunity for closure on his abandonment, and it's clearly shaped how she thinks of all the guards. I can see this opportunity making her snap. I have to hope she doesn't, though, because she's not a bad person at heart and she'd never recover from that.

I also have to wonder whether Poussey's military father didn't say something that made Caputo do what he did. He pulled rank and stood by his employees, clearly thinking it was the right thing to do at the time. The timing of the phone call just seems like it has to be relevant.

So much happened this season that it's going to take me a while to process all the storylines. But first I need to come to terms with the blinding loss of Poussey.

All I want from next season is a Frieda flashback. It could be that she's best in small doses, but she makes me smile every damn time she opens her mouth.

[RCharter]

7 hours ago, Thog said:

All I want from next season is a Frieda flashback. It could be that she's best in small doses, but she makes me smile every damn time she opens her mouth.

From your lips to the writers ears!

[questionfear]

19 hours ago, RCharter said:

^^and I hope that the point that it made, because I think its a very salient and important point.   I sincerely hope the takeaway isn't "well, you just can't hire war vets."  I hope the takeaway is " you can't just mindlessly hire war vets...you need to do due diligence....the same way you should with ANY candidate"

My hope is that it will turn out Piscatella specifically chose candidates who tended towards authoritarian/violent/followers, so he could build power within the guard ranks. Then it doesn't slap vets or hiring vets in the face, and puts the onus back on Piscatella's apparent fascism fetish. 

[Blakeston]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:49 AM, questionfear said:

Also, I think they've purposely been vague about whether Piper got dinged for perjury in S2. Her testimony was the opposite of Alex, so there's a good shot she may have had another year tacked on for lying under oath too. They likely left it a little unclear so they could choose to jettison her whenever, and if it seems like she's been in longer, toss in a perjury reference and call it good. 

They never gave us any indication that she was charged with perjury, or that she got extra time. That would be a major ordeal.

Also, all Piper did was say that she didn't remember long-ago events well enough to say for certain that Kubra was there. It would be extraordinarily difficult to get a perjury conviction based on that.

If they mention in season 5 that Piper was convicted of perjury three seasons ago, and sentenced to extra time in prison, without the audience being given any clue that it happened, I'll be very annoyed with the writers.

On 6/27/2016 at 8:05 PM, Captanne said:

Poussey's father is an Army major.

Poussey told Judy King that her father was a major. But he must be a general now, because Caputo referred to him as one.

I can't buy that he was a major when Poussey went into prison and rose the ranks that quickly. So I'm assuming that Poussey was talking about the rank her father held when she was a child.

Regarding Poussey's sentence - I agree with those who think her six-year sentence sounds extremely unrealistic.

In fact, I don't buy that she'd face even two years in a federal prison just for trespassing into that location and having some weed on her - unless a) it was a huge amount of pot, and b) her father hung her out to dry, and she was stuck with a public defender. (And I have a hard time believing that the gentle, loving father we saw in her flashbacks would do that).

[marceline]

Add me to the list of people who think that Suzanne should be in psych. She's too unpredictable and dangerous. I'd like to see little more fallout from this between Taystee and Suzanne. Yes, there were a lot of contributing factors but this all started with Suzanne, once again, losing control and becoming violent. Then her behavior afterwards  - wanting to know what it's like to not breathe - just pours salt into the wound.

[Princess Sparkle]

36 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding Poussey's sentence - I agree with those who think her six-year sentence sounds extremely unrealistic.

In fact, I don't buy that she'd face even two years in a federal prison just for trespassing into that location and having some weed on her - unless a) it was a huge amount of pot, and b) her father hung her out to dry, and she was stuck with a public defender. (And I have a hard time believing that the gentle, loving father we saw in her flashbacks would do that).

Well, we know she was convicted of possession with intent to sell, and in her flashback, she herself said she had a huge stash on her because she was selling it off before she went overseas.  I'm guessing she got some kind of mandatory minimum sentencing for however much she had on her.

[RCharter]

9 minutes ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Well, we know she was convicted of possession with intent to sell, and in her flashback, she herself said she had a huge stash on her because she was selling it off before she went overseas.  I'm guessing she got some kind of mandatory minimum sentencing for however much she had on her.

That my read on it too, because you have to have an amount large enough to sell in order for a federal charge to apply IIRC.  Congress can only make drugs a federal charge if they can argue it would have a significant impact on interstate commerce so as to trigger the commerce clause of the constitution.  

And she wouldn't be in a federal facility unless it was a federal crime.

And federal crimes will more often have mandatory minimums.  I believe this is to ensure uniform sentencing for federal crimes among the states.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 6/22/2016 at 9:25 AM, The Mighty Peanut said:

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut
Meant to edit something and quoted myself in entirely new post. Sorry.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Princess Sparkle said:

Well, we know she was convicted of possession with intent to sell, and in her flashback, she herself said she had a huge stash on her because she was selling it off before she went overseas.  I'm guessing she got some kind of mandatory minimum sentencing for however much she had on her.

She also said that she was going to smoke the rest of her stash, in a fairly short period of time. So I can't imagine it was that much.

And so far as I can tell, when it comes to federal mandatory minimum sentences for possessing marijuana with intent to sell, the only one that's longer than 6 years for a first offense is for people caught with 1,000 kilograms or more. Or 1,000 plants or more.

And it appears that for a mandatory minimum of 5 years for a first offense, she'd have to have been caught with 100 kilograms or more, or 100 plants or more.

[SophiaPehawkins]

I finally finished watching this last night and my heart still hurts for Poussey. I was a blubbering mess and then to have the last episode show her in the past with her on the cusp of her dreams and future, I couldn't take it. And the last shot of her looking into the camera was too much. I guess I should have seen it coming since she was so happy with Soso and what's-her-name was going to get her a job once she got out of prison. I've never felt this kind of anguish from the death of a fictional character. Damn, I'm going to miss her. I understand why they did it. I don't think the writers were going for a shock factor. I think they were making a bigger point of the dehumanization that occurs both in prison and outside of it. Someone doesn't have to be an antagonizer to be a victim of brutality. And it's not always monsters who kill. Bayley, I don't know how he'll recover.

I don't know if it was just me, but it was Bayley and his friend that were walking past Poussey on the street when she was looking for a cellphone to borrow. Small world.

It was a good cliffhanger, though I don't think Daya will shoot. It looks good from a cinematic perspective, but it would destroy her and I don't think she has it in her to do it. I wish she would since I hate that piece of shit guard. I hope that girl with the confederate flag tattoo takes the gun and shoots instead. That gets rid of two awful people.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Has Orange Is The New Black Outgrown Itself?

Overcrowding led to bathroom lines and a whole lot of plot in Season 4.

[angora]

Reading through this thread, it finally hit me what Caputo is (albeit an adult-content version):  he's all the "good" adults that the Baudelaire orphans meet in A Series of Unfortunate Events.  In almost every book, those kids meet one adult who's nice, basically well-meaning, and doesn't want to see the Baudelaires get hurt, but they're ultimately too scared/weak-willed/naive/self-serving to actually step up and help them in any tangible way.  That's Caputo all over. 

[WelcomeStranger]

On 6/18/2016 at 8:31 PM, Mya Stone said:

I just...that last look, the smile, the chuckle. Way to tear my heart out and stomp on it, show. I understand that's how they want us to remember Poussey, but I'll be damned if I'm not in tears just thinking about it. 

We can assume that Poussey's last night before her arrest was also the most magical night of her life. The funky avant garde club the drag queen hookers took her to, then the "Improv Everywhere" dudes dressed like monks on sparkly bicycles tooling her away. She didn't stop smiling the whole time, surely marveling at how the world is full of magical, quirky surprises.

And then at the end, Poussey didn't just smile, she turned straight to the camera and busted that Fourth Wall to bits. I guess only a dead character can get away with that: grinning right at us the audience as if to say, "What a long, strange trip it's been. Thanks for joining me on this ride."

Sweet.

[mytmo]

Sorry but I can't stand Suzanne.  I know I know she has mental issues but she has been nothing but a selfish, violent  self centered fuck that manipulates situations to be all about her.  I could really live without this character.  She is just tedious.

As for the NY scenes I got the vibe this is Poussey's journey to the afterlife, a strange, dreamy but happy kind of vibe.  Maybe the address she is looking for is a poetic, literature or even biblical reference to the afterlife but I'm too tired to investigate.  I am going to miss this character.

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, mytmo said:

Sorry but I can't stand Suzanne.  I know I know she has mental issues but she has been nothing but a selfish, violent  self centered fuck that manipulates situations to be all about her.  I could really live without this character.  She is just tedious.

As for the NY scenes I got the vibe this is Poussey's journey to the afterlife, a strange, dreamy but happy kind of vibe.  Maybe the address she is looking for is a poetic, literature or even biblical reference to the afterlife but I'm too tired to investigate.  I am going to miss this character.

I thought the same thing about Poussey's NY experience, though it seems we are in the minority on that one.

My take on Suzanne is different, but I can't argue with the violent part.

[Armchair Critic]

I'm glad Judy King and Linda are stuck in the prison when this went down.

[GreekGeek]

10 hours ago, mytmo said:

As for the NY scenes I got the vibe this is Poussey's journey to the afterlife, a strange, dreamy but happy kind of vibe.  Maybe the address she is looking for is a poetic, literature or even biblical reference to the afterlife but I'm too tired to investigate.  I am going to miss this character.

I think Poussey said she was looking for "John Street," which is definitely biblical, though also a real street in NYC.

I confess I never thought of that night as anything other than a literal flashback, though I like the suggestions that she's in the afterlife or even that she traveled back in time and fixed the mistakes that led to her incarceration.

[RCharter]

On 6/29/2016 at 9:39 AM, Blakeston said:

She also said that she was going to smoke the rest of her stash, in a fairly short period of time. So I can't imagine it was that much.

And so far as I can tell, when it comes to federal mandatory minimum sentences for possessing marijuana with intent to sell, the only one that's longer than 6 years for a first offense is for people caught with 1,000 kilograms or more. Or 1,000 plants or more.

And it appears that for a mandatory minimum of 5 years for a first offense, she'd have to have been caught with 100 kilograms or more, or 100 plants or more.

If she had a "stash" it may have been more than MJ.  And it was enough to trigger a federal charge and not a state charge.

I don't remember her saying she was going to smoke the rest of her stash, I only remember her saying she was selling it off.

Her stash may have more that marijuana, especially if she was selling it to survive.

[AllyB]

On 6/26/2016 at 0:28 AM, RCharter said:

You wouldn't go to a federal facility for a state crime.  Therefore, she would have to be holding enough to violate a federal statute.  Since she said that she was "selling off her stash" its believable that she had more than an ounce.

Under the commerce clause, congress only has the power to regulate interstate commerce.  So, the only way a drug crime can be a federal crime is if the person is carrying enough that there can be a presumption of "intent to sell" which triggers the interstate commerce clause.  If there is mere possession without an intent to distribute, than it is only a state crime.  And Poussay wouldn't be in a federal facility in the first place.  

The MCC PR douchebags specifically said she had under an ounce on her when she was arrested.

[RCharter]

7 hours ago, AllyB said:

The MCC PR douchebags specifically said she had under an ounce on her when she was arrested.

Unless whatever cops used the ounce as probable cause to search her home and found the rest of the stash.

But -- yeah, they shouldn't have left the impression that she was just carrying an ounce because I don't think thats enough to trigger an assumption of intent to sell.

Edited July 1, 2016 by RCharter

[SadieT]

On 6/27/2016 at 9:05 PM, Meedis said:

As a side note, it was cool to see Maritza get back at "Humps" for his diabolic act against her.   It made sense that she'd be the one to push the gun away from him though odd that she wasn't with Flaca or her normal group.   

She was with McCullough, Humps and Judy King because she's the van driver and Judy was being released. McCullough presumably was going to process the release like she did with Aleida, and Humps was going to ride along in the van. But I agree it was fitting that it was Maritza who was in the perfect position to push Humps from behind and acted quickly to free the gun because she knows more than anyone that he's a sadistic psycho who would absolutely start gunning inmates down if he got the chance. 

[announcergirl]

On June 19, 2016 at 7:26 PM, apollonia666 said:

Gutted.  I just adore the character of Poussey and Samira Wiley's performance in the role.

This little thing is making me crazy.  At the club Poussey went to with the drag queens, when the word "share" came up on the screens and she gave a joint to a woman and lit it for her: Was that Linda from Purchasing?  I've gone back and paused it several times and I think it may be.

It could be. Did you notice she crossed paths with Baxley on the street in NY?

That party looked amazing! I've got to figure how to make one happen. 

About SoSo grieving alone. That is true, but I think Poussey's friends will welcome her. She use to eat with them and they called her "the widow."

What stood out for me was how segmented the women were. I knew some, the white superminis ts, but didn't realize how separate the others considered themselves, like Red's group, even Mari's group. It totally went over my head.

[announcergirl]

On June 19, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Megan said:

Did Poussey's GENERAL father allow her to serve time to teach her a lesson? There is no way he lets her death go especially if that's the case.. and he'll have serious back up.

 

Caputo should have thrown Piscatillo under the bus but I guess he knows that hiring Piscatillo, given the skeletons conversation would be thrown back on him. Bayley was inoffensive and could be written off as a mistake. I'm hoping something happened during the conversation between Caputo and General Washington that is going to flip this back onto MCC.

I still don't understand why Caputo let Piscatillo cow him, he should have fired him immediately when he threatened to pull all the officers.

 

I cried through the last two episodes.

Particularly since it seems Puscatelli has some major secrets - gay man kicked out of max security at a men's prison.

He's been downright disrespectful and owning Caputo. Even using gum as an act of defiance. Fry his ass.

[announcergirl]

On June 22, 2016 at 1:56 AM, RCharter said:

I think the reason that Suzanne hasn't been sent to psych is twofold: a) she isn't as traditionally "crazy" as Lolly is, Lolly is probably schizophrenic, but Suzanne maybe has autism and a personality disorder (I'm no psychologist, but those words sound right), and b) because she has a community of people who care and watch out for her and keep her in check.

Lolly does not have that.  She had Alex, who barely cared and two other people that pretty much wanted to kill her.  Then she had Healy, but he is suffocating, and he isn't a friend, he is a controller.  I don't even know that Alex/Piper/Nicky even tried to bring Lolly into their "family" and Lolly legitimately saved Alex's life.  I'm not sure how much a caring community would help Lolly, but it seems like she mostly hears voices when she is alone or isn't being engaged by someone talking to her.  Heck, if anyone remotely cared for her, they might have been able to talk to Healy about getting her medication  (making sure she took it) and keeping her in general population because they would watch her.  

If you recall, sometimes Suzanne goes to psyche but her parents worked a deal where she comes back to regular segment.

I don't think any of the women have been described as murderers, even Red. I think they were accessories. That's why the minimum. Also, not that many releases because we are still dealing with a short time span for the series. People probably are being regularly released, just not our group, although some did.

[Blakeston]

18 hours ago, RCharter said:

Unless whatever cops used the ounce as probable cause to search her home and found the rest of the stash.

But -- yeah, they shouldn't have left the impression that she was just carrying an ounce because I don't think thats enough to trigger an assumption of intent to sell.

If she'd been arrested for having a large stash of pot hidden away somewhere, I can't imagine the MCC honchos (who were looking for any kind of dirt they could get) would bring up the "not even half an ounce" of weed, but fail to mention the big stash.

This sounds like a case of the writers deciding on the specifics of her crime without caring whether it fit the sentence they'd established.

[Princess Sparkle]

12 hours ago, announcergirl said:

About SoSo grieving alone. That is true, but I think Poussey's friends will welcome her. She use to eat with them and they called her "the widow."

 

I agree, and we even know they were expecting her to be with them already.  At one point, Jenae asks where Soso is and Cindy says she sent Suzanne to go find her. 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, announcergirl said:

I don't think any of the women have been described as murderers, even Red. I think they were accessories. That's why the minimum. Also, not that many releases because we are still dealing with a short time span for the series. People probably are being regularly released, just not our group, although some did.

Frieda killed at least 4 people. I figured she had just been in prison so long that she got moved to minimum security because of probably decades of good behavior and the fact that at her age she is less of a threat to guards and other prisoners.

[RCharter]

On 6/30/2016 at 10:44 AM, RCharter said:

If she had a "stash" it may have been more than MJ.  And it was enough to trigger a federal charge and not a state charge.

I don't remember her saying she was going to smoke the rest of her stash, I only remember her saying she was selling it off.

Her stash may have more that marijuana, especially if she was selling it to survive.

OR, its possible that they may have actually caught her selling in NYC, and if she was from another state I think it may still be considered interstate commerce. That especially may work if she was selling on the bus.

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

If she'd been arrested for having a large stash of pot hidden away somewhere, I can't imagine the MCC honchos (who were looking for any kind of dirt they could get) would bring up the "not even half an ounce" of weed, but fail to mention the big stash.

This sounds like a case of the writers deciding on the specifics of her crime without caring whether it fit the sentence they'd established.

What sounds more likely is that the writers later decided to change it to an ounce in order to have a reason for Caputo not to be able to throw Poussay under the bus, so the MCC line would be to throw Bayley under the bus...and then Caputo could deflect in order to save Bayley.

Or.....as people like to say....plot.

[announcergirl]

On June 22, 2016 at 8:25 AM, The Mighty Peanut said:

I respectfully disagree that it's utter bullshit. I'm not trying to excuse Bayley....you're right, at the end of the day his boot was on her back, his hands were on her neck, and she died. I don't absolve him of her death because if he wanted to be a CO he should have thought it out first, and he didn't. At the same time, I can acknowledge that this was a terrible accident that he absolutely didn't intend and that he will carry the guilt for the rest of his life. IMO this sets him apart from, for example, someone like Coates who took advantage of his situation, raped somebody, and only felt bad about it when it conflicted with his perception of himself as a nice guy. Bayley saw Poussey as a person, not an ape out of its cage. I blame him for being the metaphorical knife that killed Poussey. I blame Suzanne for driving the knife in. I blame the corrupt COs for treating their jobs like they're running a concentration camp. I blame Caputo for being ineffectual. I blame the MCC for taking away all the means to run a safe prison and then being surprised it's dangerous. I blame the prison industrial complex for years and years of corruption. I blame society for their deeply held belief that "doing the crime means doing the time" even when the crime is really pretty small and the time involves being constantly at risk of being assaulted and raped, used for unpaid/unregulated manual labor, housed next to toxic lakes, put in solitary confinement for the non-criminal matter of gender identity, being refused access to healthcare, being left to die when the healthcare you do get becomes too expensive, or let back out to rot on the streets via "compassionate release" when you become an inconvenience.

All of those things together murdered Poussey. The boot was just a symbol.

BRAVO!! Are you an attorney?

[SadieT]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Frieda killed at least 4 people. I figured she had just been in prison so long that she got moved to minimum security because of probably decades of good behavior and the fact that at her age she is less of a threat to guards and other prisoners.

Pennsatucky is a murderer too. Frieda being in minimum I could buy because of her age, like you said. But I don't think Doggett's crime was all that long ago considering her age, and before her recent change of heart she hadn't exactly been a model prisoner as she was volatile and sometimes violent, so her being in minimum makes no sense to me. But whatever the justification is for her being in Litchfield, I'm glad for it because she's become one of my favorite characters.  

[Blissfool]

16 hours ago, announcergirl said:

 

What stood out for me was how segmented the women were. I knew some, the white superminis ts, but didn't realize how separate the others considered themselves, like Red's group, even Mari's group. It totally went over my head.

This! I was offended that not all the inmates were heartbroken over Poussey's death. Some  hardly knew her; they referred to her as "the girl". Then we had maritza and flaca laughing it up as they practiced their sad faces. What! 

[angora]

7 hours ago, Blissfool said:

This! I was offended that not all the inmates were heartbroken over Poussey's death. Some  hardly knew her; they referred to her as "the girl". Then we had maritza and flaca laughing it up as they practiced their sad faces. What! 

The part that really got me was at the beginning, how we see the Black girls in their dorm grieving, angry, shell-shocked, with everyone leaning on each other and mourning Poussey, and then they cut to the white girls and it was, "Was that the first time you ever saw a dead body?", and Soso was the only one in that dorm who seemed to be thinking about it in terms of Poussey the person rather than THEIR feelings about what had happened and how the tensions going forward would affect THEM/THEIR people.  It made me so sad.  There were moments of crossover, like when the kitchen ladies saw that she was still in the cafeteria or when Red shared the quote about gardening that Poussey had shown her (I also teared up when Red called her "that little girl" lying in the cafeteria,) but for the most part, it really was just Poussey's group that was thinking about HER.

That said, I really loved the Black girls sitting around reminiscing about her the next day, because it was a lot of the same moments that went through my head after watching episode 12 - her singing, the "she wee" - and I'd had the same smiling/sad reaction.

Another great sad/smiling moment for me was when the MCC guys couldn't find any dirt on her and one of them lamented, "Even her intake picture is adorable."  I dunno - it just made think, 1) "Of COURSE it is," and 2) "You go, Poussey - don't make it easy for those bastards."

[Captanne]

I finally had the chance to finish the season and, also, to reflect on some of the observations made by my co-posters who are so clever, and attentive.  I agree with most everything said up and down here through the threads-- Poussey's death was so sad and unnecessary.  The fallout is fascinating to watch -- from the effect on Bayley (that was Bayley Poussey passed on her night odyssey through NYC on her way to run into the drag queens), to the effect on the entire prison population, to the effect on the Evil Guards and MCC.  There was a slight hitch when she told Soso that her father was a major and then it's in Caputo's call that he's referred to as a General.  But whatever.  Maybe he was a Major when we saw that flashback to Germany some seasons ago (Poussey's background episode) and over the past few years has been promoted like crazy.  (Usual promotion time is slower but we've been in two wars for 14 years so who knows about field promotions.  Even to General.  It's happened before in the history of the US military -- officers make General in the field and come home, returning to major status, for example.  That happened quite a bit in the Civil War.  Not typical in this day and age but not unheard of.) 

I think that's a nitpick, honestly.

I have two unpopular opinions (one will be more UO than the other, I expect) -- the first is that the guards became too cartoonishly evil for my tastes. If there was a shockingly horrific direction they could take, they would.  The icing on the cake was the "comforting" dialogue between the fat redhead and Bayley in the car on his way home that night.  Those anecdotes as throw-away "normality" were so over the top, and numerous*, that I rolled my eyes and tuned it out. (*One was enough, guys.  Making it two horror stories was just silly and degraded the power of the moment.)

The more UO, I think, is that I was proud of Caputo's speech.  I understand what prompted the revolt and I'm right there with them -- but I've heard a lot of criticism of Caputo's response and I think he did the best he could given his personality.  The most telling moment for me was when he went to Fig and she said, "They broke you, too, huh?"  And he agreed.  They broke him -- so his speech, going off the script, was his brave, if fragile, attempt to bring humanity to the situation.  It wasn't enough, of course, by a long stretch.  But it was a try and it was all he could do within his own limitations.  I came away with a feeling of pride.  This, to be sure, is a UO, so I fall back on the cartoon evil excuse -- Caputo was not only up against a battalion of Snidely Whiplashes but he is part of the cartoon and is limited himself.

 

ETA:  I just noticed we have an "unpopular opinions" thread here.  I'm going to leave my post in this thread, though, because it is so episode specific.  

Edited July 2, 2016 by Captanne

[Clanstarling]

They may be unpopular opinions - but you make excellent, thoughtful points, @captanne

[Xcptnl]

I just wanted to note that we have minimum and medium security prisons at the same location.   Not sure about having a maximum at the same location.  

[vesperholly]

On 6/20/2016 at 11:21 PM, Tararayne said:

And Crazy Eyes has been front and center every season for some inexplicable reason. 

Emmy winners can probably stipulate the number of episodes they're in.

I really hope someone else is submitted for awards (though the Emmys tend to fixate on the "one awardable person" no matter what). Crazy Eye has been one-note since Season 1. I'd love to see Danielle Brooks (Taystee) get a nod.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 29/06/2016 at 10:12 AM, questionfear said:

My hope is that it will turn out Piscatella specifically chose candidates who tended towards authoritarian/violent/followers, so he could build power within the guard ranks. Then it doesn't slap vets or hiring vets in the face, and puts the onus back on Piscatella's apparent fascism fetish. 

I hope it is something like that too because otherwise it is frustrating that so many of the guards they hired turned out super evil, when i am sure mist vets end up leading relatively normal lives. And even the small percentage were in combat and saw terrible things don't become evil bastards because of it.

Hell they make sure to show that all the prisoners aren't cut from the same cloth. Some are hardened criminals some are victims of circumstance and some are somewhere  in  between. Why couldn't they do the same with the new guards; have one ir two evil ones, some who just go along with the crowd and some actual good people (who could just get shut diwn by Piscatella). Wouldn't change  the story other than making the guards less over the top villains.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Taystee said she was going to work, I thought she had some kind of plan. When she not so subtly offered to call the police or the coroner for Caputo, I thought that we were going to see her do something after he said MCC had to figure things out first. When he said he didn't have Poussey's file and therefore couldn't call her dad but Taystee offered to call registration to get the number, I thought that she was going to call the police and Poussey's dad the second he left the office. But I think that she was so upset AND still expecting Caputo to do the right thing that it didn't occur to her to break the rules and do either. As angry and disappointed with Caputo as she was at that point, I think she still believed that he was going to do the right thing.

I really feel for poor Brooke. As much as Taystee loved Poussey, she has been able to lean on Cindy. Brooke, on the other hand, is drinking alone in the yard. And instead of Leanne and the other meth head chick feeling some sympathy for Brooke, they simply saw an opportunity to steal the last of Poussey's booze. I don't know if Brooke will ever heal from this. It's hard enough to lose someone you love, but she has no support system right now.

I always thought that Dixon was gross (and he reminded us again what a stellar guy he was when he stomped on Taystee's watch and called her a disgusting name) but when he started trying to cheer Bayley up with the stories of the terrible things he had done, I was horrified. He had a kid juggle grenades until be blew up because he was BORED and frustrated with not taking out any bad guys. He had sex (raped?) a local girl and then strangled her because he assumed her family would just kill her anyway. And his solution to being a murdering asshole is that "you just have to get over it." Good lord. He may not be as psycho as Humphreys but he is horrifying nonetheless. What are the chances that Bayley will try to commit suicide next season? He was a dumb kid in the flashbacks but he clearly felt guilty about his role in Poussey's death. I don't know if he'll be able to live with himself.

As someone else pointed out, Bayley and Poussey committed similar crimes in their flashbacks. But Bayley got out without any charges while Poussey was sent to federal prison. There but for the leniency of the arresting officers.

[kieyra]

On July 1, 2016 at 11:38 PM, SadieT said:

Pennsatucky is a murderer too. Frieda being in minimum I could buy because of her age, like you said. But I don't think Doggett's crime was all that long ago considering her age, and before her recent change of heart she hadn't exactly been a model prisoner as she was volatile and sometimes violent, so her being in minimum makes no sense to me. But whatever the justification is for her being in Litchfield, I'm glad for it because she's become one of my favorite characters.  

Could it be because Doggett had the powerful church-money lawyers behind her?

[EdnasEdibles]

On June 24, 2016 at 2:19 PM, kieyra said:

You're missing the bigger picture, which is that the system is so screwed-up and corrupt it ...

1) Incarcerates rather than treats mental illness. (Even Morello is an example of this. If her stalker tendencies extended to her female sex partners, she would be extremely dangerous to the other inmates.) 

 

This is the thing that broke my heart about this season. So many of those women desperately need help with their mental health. From Suzanne and her obvious issues, to Morello and her obsessive tendencies to even Daya and the lack of counseling after she had a baby, was in a relationship with a guard. There appears to be no help or medication given to any of them. Everyone is a ticking time bomb. 

[teapot]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 2:47 AM, RCharter said:

I actually toured a federal facility....and if I HAD to do prison time.....I would definitely want to do it at a federal facility.

They had like 2-3 large flat screen TVs in each pod, and you could get a receiver and headphones, so it wasn't noisy.

They had workout equipment, like bikes and treadmills and an elliptical.

The rooms were small, but they weren't teeny, tiny.

There were attached basketball courts.

There were computers that were equipped with internet (and I'm assuming that a lot of sites were blocked)

The worst part though was that it did smell damp and stuffy inside, like socks and old air.  

I think Teresa Guidice from RHONJ did eleven months at Danbury (real-life Litchfield.)  According to her interview on Watch What Happens Live, her days consisted of jogging, yoga, naps, Bravo TV, and a job "wiping down the tables a couple times a day."  For a  second I was almost envious!