S02.E23: The Race of His Life

[VCRTracking]

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I've watched a lot of stupid, superhero/fantasy/sci-fi crap in my life, and I'll follow along with a lot, but for the record, I don't understand the Time Remnant Thing

Me neither.

Seeing John Wesley Shipp as the real Jay Garrick was great though.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was already rolling my eyes at the beginning of the episode when Zoom tried to go all Darth Vader on Barry with the "give in to your anger!" stuff. But then Barry had to go and be Barry. First he was like, great, I'm glad you guys have figured out that Zoom challenged me to this race so that he could blow up the other worlds but I'm going to do it anyway! Then he decided that everyone else could go fuck off so that he could go back in time and save his mom. Great job, Barry!

Seriously, he needs a good therapist so that he will accept what's past is past instead of going back in time to "fix" things and altering the timeline for his own selfish desires.

[zannej]

6 hours ago, maczero said:

Barry is going to keep shitting all over the timeline and start going back in time for the most trivial reasons.   Next season starts with Barry going back in time because he didn't use his Arby's coupon before it expired.

ROTFL!

6 hours ago, Jenesis said:

Damn, Caitlyn is a worse actress than Danielle Panabaker.

Ugh on the second WestAllen kiss to be wiped out of existence.

Yeah. I remembered that Caitlin couldn't seem to stay calm around Eobard/Wells when she was supposed to be distracting him, so my first thought was that having Caitlin try to fool Zoom was a big mistake. I actually think Danielle did a good job of showing that Caitlin was terrible at acting. If they hadn't sent a hologram, it might have been better if she just ran up to Hunter, hugged him, and planted a big kiss on him or something.

Btw, when he said it was too late, did it look like he was trying to shove his head through her chest?

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I've never really had a problem with Danielle before, but WOW. That speech to Zoom was just BAD.

I think it was supposed to be bad. At least I hope it was.

6 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I don't think they can pull that off.  Its too big a gamble pissing of audiences of four shows simultaneously.  Audiences like their continuity.  Its doubtful that one show can turn itself on its head and be better.  Four shows, no way.  Add to that the feeling that there are no consequences and a reboot could happen at anytime.  Just, no.

And if I were a viewer of any of the other three and didn't watch Flash I would be super unhappy enough if another show that I didn't watch rebooted one I did.

Yes. I don't like it when they screw with continuity or get things wrong. I mean, every once in awhile if they majorly fucked up, I'm ok with a reset. I suspect that the other shows will not be affected and that they will continue to be in the timeline that existed before Barry went back to save Nora. Of course, maybe his father will end up murdered or maybe it will turn out that his mother died of cancer or died in a car accident or something anyway.

6 hours ago, Jenesis said:

I think this will just be another way of showing Barry that you can't mess with time the way he has been doing. Not everything will wrap up neatly like it did with Hartley switching sides.

Hopefully, he'll finally see that the way things play out is for a reason and the only time it's ok is when he accidentally time travels.

I can't see the show runners totally changing everything. We are too deeply invested in the way the characters are now. Hell, I frowned when the Barry from the Season 1 finale disappeared when current Barry saved Nora. The only one who'll change is Wells. We might get happy and in-love-with-Tess Wells and his daughter, Jesse.

I do hope that we get the original Harrison Wells and Tess and Jesse-- although, if E2 Harry's wife died, then maybe Tess will have died at a different point.

I'm pretty sure there will be repercussions that Barry doesn't like-- hence the season 1 finale where a future version of Barry told past Barry NOT to save Nora.

6 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

2. :"My name is Barry Allen. For the past two years, I have gone on many adventures. Made new friends. Visited new worlds. And learned what family is all about. And because I feel hollow inside, I'm going to choose not to learn any lessons and recreate Flashpoint. You know, the launching pad for a company-wide reboot that would led to another reboot inside five years. Right now, I'm looking to surpass Rip Hunter as the worst time traveler in the CWverse. That's Rip Hunter, a man who recruited Leonard Snart to save his wife and son, then took Mick Rory because why not?"

3. "DING!" "What was that?" "Well, Jay, I invented a device that goes 'ding' anytime Barry Allen makes a poor life decision. Five minutes . . . looks like Jesse owes me a Ekoc." "What's that?" "It's like Coke on Earth-1." "Is that anything like Crystal Pepsi on my world?" "Ye Gods . . . "

LOL! Pretty much!

5 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

But won't the Time Wraiths show up to stop Barry ?  They showed up when he only went back a year earlier this season -- going back 16 years has got to trigger a swarm of Time Wraiths.

Isn't the speedforce going to be really upset that Barry is fucking with the timeline ?  Especially after they just gave him his speedforce back.

I still wonder why the wraiths went after Zoom instead of Barry. There were two of them-- one each could have gone after Barry-- unless he was like "Hey, I need help stopping this dick who keeps messing with time travel and I'm trying to fix it-- assuming they could even understand" But maybe the speedforce somehow controls them? Who knows.

I think maybe things will go wrong and Barry will realize he fucked up, but that the speedforce will know that Barry had to make that mistake to learn from it.

5 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

My memory for this stuff is crap so this spec might be preposterous.

But if Barry doesn't get taken by the time wraiths, then he has to live though the timeline so we'll potentially have old Barry and young Barry once they fast forward in the timeline to current time.  If that happens then old Barry is next season super villain.  Calling it now.

How close to prior timelines was Barry's Dad get tossed to the side when Barry's Mom was murdered?  Because I came away from that thinking there was a good chance that in saving his Mom, Barry's Dad accidentally got killed.  So young Barry's childhood angst is that the red flash killed his father and when he time travels, he learns that it was him and maybe that knocks the time travel out of him.  Probably not, he'll just go back and there will be three Flashes and one Reverse Flash.  At some point there is going to be a farcical party scene where a hundred Flashes cram into the room with a variety of agendas.

I think the biggest clue to whether they are going to reset everything will be Arrow.  If they do something massively upsetting or make shippers very happy in their finale then it will reset every show to some extent.

Barry could run back to the time he left and find everything different.

Hmm.. it would be interesting if his father died that night, but I don't know if that will happen. Barry did seem to knock out Reverse Flash, but RF could still get back up and do something.

The idea of 100 Flashes in the room did make me think of a Marx Bros movie (was it "Duck Soup"?)

As I said before, I don't think the changes in Flash will affect Arrow. I think the will sort of be in slightly separate worlds after that-- unless Barry goes back and fixes things very shortly in to season 3.

5 hours ago, jmonique said:

Well, Time Remnant Barry did. I've watched a lot of stupid, superhero/fantasy/sci-fi crap in my life, and I'll follow along with a lot, but for the record, I don't understand the Time Remnant Thing.

Does this mean Eddie lives?

I hope Eddie lives.

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Good things:

1. The ending really was a decent twist, and got people talking, if nothing else. Kudos for that.

2. Yay, Jesse finally was allowed some choice in her life! About time!

3. Zoom lampshading all of Barry's father figures.

4. It was terribly corny, and hardly worth all of the speculation, but I admit I did like seeing the 90s Flash revealed as Jay Garrick, hero. YAY!

5. Some of the special racing effects were really beautifully done. I also really liked the shot of the umbrellas at the funeral.

Questionable things:

1. Not thrilled with Iris basically saying that she'll put her life on hold for Barry because Barry did it for her. Uh, Barry did not wait for you, Iris. He pined after you, but in the meantime, he went out with Felicity, Linda and Patty. And possibly others that we don't know of. I realize what the scene was going for, but still.

2. And speaking of Iris, I thought she was far too resigned to Joe's disappearance, but maybe she had just finally realized she'd never be his favorite kid anyway and her life would be better now.

3. I'd ask how Wally just waltzed into Star Labs, but since everyone does, I'll handwave that. What I'm less interested in handwaving is how Wally was able to release Barry from his cell. Guys, these are not going to be very functional cells if just anyone can walk in and open them.

4. Yay, Team Flash, for locking Barry up, especially given his move at the end of the episode, minus several points for trying to take him down yourselves without Barry. Wally had a point there -

5. Maybe. Barry, if Zoom wants you to race him really really fast so he can destroy multiverses maybe - just maybe - it's not a great idea to go along with this plan. What if the Time Dementors hadn't shown up? Or taken you instead as punishment for being an idiot.

6. I kinda get that Barry knows that some of his time resets have worked out well and actually helped people. Still, most of those were to do things like stop Vandal Savage from taking out an entire city, or stop a tidal wave from taking out an entire city, or...I think you see my point here. Stopping his mother's murder? Not quite on the same level. 

7. Really, CW/Berlanti/Arrowverse? Telling us that the Arrowverse is the center of the multiverses? 

Bad things:

1. This episode really seemed to drag up until the last 30 seconds. 

2. How on earth was Zoom convinced by Caitlin's little speech about darkness there? I realize he's a villain and not all there mentally, but it was a very unconvincing speech.

 

I suspect that Iris was somewhat in shock, but also she had made an agreement with her father and wanted to stick to it. Furthermore, she saw what happened when Barry decided to open up portals back to Earth2 to try to kill Zoom. It just got more people killed. For all she knew, she would lose Barry, her brother, and other people. It's possible to appear outwardly calm while being in complete turmoil inside.

How the hell did Wally even find the prison cells? Aren't there like 600 levels or something in STAR Labs? Were there signs saying "Secret metahuman prison this way-->"? And once he got there, how did he even know how to open the cell?

I kind of thought that Zoom didn't really buy Caitlin's speech. Sending her out there was a dumb idea to begin with. And they should have had Joe try to get the shot sooner. The whole embracing the darkness inside was just dumb.

3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I'm just so disappointed. I love Barry, he's a great character for the most part but this time traveling shit has to stop. It's not an effective problem solver. Ever. Not ever. 

I get it. He just lost his last living genetic relative. They were murdered right before his eyes. The pain must be unbearable but how does that equal you going back in time 16 years to save your mother from being murdered? You claimed you came to terms with her death. Why didn't you try to save your father? Going so far back in time doesn't just affect you. You've changed the lives of everyone you know without their consent or knowledge. It's extremely selfish.

Yeah. Why didn't he just zip back to the day Zoom killed his father, kick Zoom in the balls & stab him with a few tranq darts, stick a speedforce draining device on him, throw his ass in the pipeline, hug his dad, and go make out with Iris? Going back to save his mother didn't make sense. I mean, the only thing I can think of was that it was his way of saying "fuck you" to the speedforce.

On a side note, even Grant Gustin seemed to realize that Barry was being an idiot. He tweeted something like "Barry, smh" (I had to look it up and smh apparently means "shaking my head").

2 hours ago, Actionmage said:

My husband has been advocating finding a sniper and having a sniper take out Zoom for a great number of episodes. Surely the police have/ had one.

Captain Cold/ Leonard Snart is supposed to resurface among the shows.

The problem is, sometimes those guns make an audible noise and if Zoom heard it, he would be able to move in time. But it would be funny if some random rookie cop got to take out one of the mega villains at some point.

I hope that they do something with the timeline so Snart can return. It's not nice of me to wish Wentworth Miller's new show to fail, but I have no interest in it, so if it flops, hopefully he'll be back.

12 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was already rolling my eyes at the beginning of the episode when Zoom tried to go all Darth Vader on Barry with the "give in to your anger!" stuff. But then Barry had to go and be Barry. First he was like, great, I'm glad you guys have figured out that Zoom challenged me to this race so that he could blow up the other worlds but I'm going to do it anyway! Then he decided that everyone else could go fuck off so that he could go back in time and save his mom. Great job, Barry!

Seriously, he needs a good therapist so that he will accept what's past is past instead of going back in time to "fix" things and altering the timeline for his own selfish desires.

Yeah. I kept wishing that Zoom had a lightsaber to offer Barry or something. Don't the villains realize that by telling the heroes to do something they are likely to ensure that the heroes *won't* do it just to spite them?

On one hand, I would like to see how the new timeline works out. On the other, if it sucks too much, I'd like to see the original one we saw get restored- or a similar version.

I actually laughed when the Time Wraiths took Zoom away because it sort of looked like two parents carrying a toddler by the hands.

Although, Zoom isn't really dead

I think JWS said he became the black flash

It was nice getting to see Harry hug people other than Jesse. And the bit from Cisco about showing up to throw Harry's stuff was cute. Hopefully they will set up some sort of nexus so they can visit each other at some point. I really don't want that version of Harry and Jesse to poof. And I don't want Eobard /Wells to be nonexistent either.

Maybe the Barry that arises from the altered timeline will be the one that Eobard hates-- because maybe he's bitter or a dick or something-- and that is why Eobard wants to kill Nora and bad things will happen but Barry will eventually realize that he needs to let his mother die to fix things.

[AudienceofOne]

Do I have to pay royalties to the CW if I have a black-umbrella funeral in the rain?

[millennium]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

  But Barry?  He's just a selfish prick now, who doesn't care who he screws over, because he just can't live without his parents.  So, he does shit like this, even though he has no idea how this could effect Joe, Iris, Cisco, Caitlin, etc.  A bunch of people he has grown close to and even claims to love.  But I guess they can all fuck off, as far as Barry is concerned.  What a swell guy!

It makes Barry seem infantile too.  Not just immature, but infantile.   Crying for his parents, stamping his feet when he doesn't get his way.   He blew up the whole hero image in the twinkling of an eye.  Because heroes by their nature perform acts which are heroic, often at great risk or cost to their own lives.  

Barry the Overgrown Baby did the exact opposite.

I really did like Season One of this show.  What a shame.

[mrspidey]

As much as I hated Barry's decision here, the way i figure, it needs to happen. There needs to be a reason for future Barry to say "Nu Uh!" to season one Barry. That works best if Barry experiences the consequences of saving Nora. 

[AudienceofOne]

I'm so glad I sat through a second season of this show that was completely identical to the first season of this show. It wasn't a waste of my time at all.

Grant Gustin can still have my babies any time he wants to. But Barry Allen? Is the world's greatest menace. He makes Oliver Queen look like a rocket scientist, Supergirl look emotionally stable and Rip Hunter look like a competent Time Master.

I was never that invested in this show, finding it at most mildly enjoyable. But I think that finale was bad enough that I may not bother with Season 3 at all.

[Duke Silver]

This show....I mean....ugh.

--JMO, but two cousins forced to be each other's companion for prom have more heat between them than Iris & Barry.  Obviously, YMMV, but that pairing is a big zero to me, beyond the friendship and SIBLING bond.

--I'm pretty sure I haven't posted in this forum since the season finale last season, mostly because I just am not overly invested in this show.  Barry being stupid is the primary reason for that.  Sorry, but his stupid/selfish acts largely nullify the good that he is portrayed doing.  My heroes need to be more than a net result of "welp...gotta take the bad w/ the good, I guess."

--I need to whittle down my tv viewing to higher quality.  I already quit Arrow (awful, awful writing) & The 100; I never bothered w/ LoT.  Guess I should just wipe the slate clean, quit this show, and finally acknowledge I don't fit the CW's demo.

[shrewd.buddha]

Thanks partially to the Flash, I have given up any lingering belief in the possibility of time travel  - - because if it were possible someone like Barry Allen would have destroyed all of existence several times over. 
But I will admit that once Barry has changed time already for 'reasons', then saving his bio-Dad seems like something he should do. (He did it to save Green Arrow, so how could he not do it to save his Dad?) Going all the way back to save his Mom however ... 

I never expected the show about the Flash would be so focused on time travel. 

It looks as if they have found a way to once again have all the same actors back but with a new situation. 
And I also have to admit being curious to see if the producers will use this time reset to fix the Barry-Iris  icky romantic siblings problem. 

For the next season I would like just a few things:

1. Don't drag out one main villain for 22 episodes - it gets tedious and ridiculous.
2. Fix things like Barry being the owner of Star Labs - - that never made any sense. 
3. Let Barry Allen, and everyone else, work at their 'real' jobs more. Hanging out in the Star Labs clubhouse all the time also doesn't make a lot of sense.

[mrspidey]

Earlier this episode: Earth-1 is the only access point to the multiverse.

End of the episode:

Jay: Need to get back to Earth-3.

Wells: Accompany us to Earth-2, we can help you there.

Me: *facepalm*

[ACW]

I think the deal is that Earth-1 is the hub of the multiverse, so you can get anywhere from there (kinda like Atlanta for airplanes).  Doesn't mean you can't get anywhere else from Earth-2, just that your options are more limited.

[mrspidey]

Maybe, but wouldn't it be better to stay on Earth-1 when you have no guarantee that you can get to Earth-3 from Earth-2?

[benteen]

I agree with those hoping that next season of Legends of Tomorrow focuses on Rip and the team trying to take down serial time abuser Barry Allen.  Hopefully it will end with Sara breaking Barry's next too.

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I've never really had a problem with Danielle before, but WOW. That speech to Zoom was just BAD.

I hate to say this because I've liked Danielle since she did a couple of episodes of Justified but she was really bad in that scene with Zoom.

Potential Flashpoint spoilers...

Spoiler

Since we are getting Flashpoint, I do hope Barry has to team up with the Robert Queen version of the Arrow and when it's resolved, we get a scene of Barry giving Oliver a letter from his father.  I've only seen the Flashpoint animated movie (which I really enjoyed) and that scene was amazing.  Oliver and Robert Queen stand in perfectly for Bruce and Thomas Wayne on this show.

Edited May 25, 2016 by benteen

[Actionmage]

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(He did it to save Green Arrow, so how could he not do it to save his Dad?)

Barry rewound time then not just to save Oliver, but the entire city as Vandal Savage had just unleashed a killing force that swept over everyone in the city. That time, I understood why he did it and- in order for the other shows to continue/ start- agreed. At that time, that was only the second time Barry had reset time, iirc. I did not realize I was sitting through a three season origin story, if the we have to have a Future Barry tell himself to not mess with the timeline, though.

 

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Don't drag out one main villain for 22 episodes - it gets tedious and ridiculous.

Fix things like Barry being the owner of Star Labs - - that never made any sense

a) ICAM; there is a reason lots of villains have minions; the Show seemed to understand that on Earth-2. *sigh*

b) I didn't mind that, mostly because it never came up. Granted, I think it was supposed to give them access to a "home base", but no one did anything to generate cash to keep the building's utilities going. We were just supposed to go ' Yay! Barry owns the lab!" and ignore the pile of bills Barry never bothered with  or the fact that no one ever talked like they were always close to being taken off the grid. Hell, even in the latter part of the season, Felicity could have shipped Barry & Co. one of the batteries that can run a city, but that wasn't even talked about.  Unless we are supposed to believe this crew essentially lives in a bubble.

 

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Maybe, but wouldn't it be better to stay on Earth-1 when you have no guarantee that you can get to Earth-3 from Earth-2?

Considering Jay was kidnapped from Earth-3 and that various other metahumans made their way to Earth-2 to try and stop Zoom, I would think that as long as you had the ability to either run like a speedster or could open a portal, getting to Earth-3 ( since it's a next-door neighbor to Earth-2) would be easier. 

I believe Zoom/Hunter's line was nexus point, though, not access point. That Earth-1 should not be destroyed because it is the "important" one. Zoom wanted to set up shop on Barry's Earth because it was from there , with the help of the stolen tech from Mercury Labs, that Zoom could destroy every other Earth in the multiverse. Which is also why the Flash Mob wanted to shunt Zoom back into Earth-2; he couldn't destroy the universe from Earth-2.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Actionmage
I hit enter by accident.

[Primetimer]

Even Zoom gets a chance to urge Barry on in The Flash's finale.

View the full article

[KirkB]

Okay, I just want to see if I have this right. When Barry was a kid he saw a red and a yellow blur swirling around his mother before she died. We find out later it was Reverse Flash and Barry from the future, fighting. Later, after he becomes the Flash, Barry goes back in time with the intent of saving his mother. He gets there, only to see another version of himself (separate from the one fighting Reverse Flash) shaking his head and telling him not to get involved. So he doesn't. After beating Zoom, Barry goes back in time to that same point again, where there is a version of him fighting Reverse Flash and that previously mentioned version of himself who already arrived to save his mother. The current version of Barry causes that previous version of Barry to disappear, because apparently he never went back that time? So now, Barry is in the past, with presumably both his mother and father alive? Which means, when he tries to go home either he won't be able to, because the point in time he left no longer exists because everything leading up to it changed or else he does go back but finds the world is a different place from the one he remembers.

But not everything needs to change.

For one thing, Eobard Thawne is still stuck in the past. Barry saving his mom doesn't alter that fact. He can still kill Harrison Wells, take his place, and create the particle accelerator earlier to make sure Barry becomes the Flash. Season 1 of the Flash can still happen mostly like it did. The only real difference, from Barry's perspective, might be that he grew up with his mom and dad and never met Joe or Iris. Which would kind of suck for Barry I guess. The ending would be different though, Since he never had to go back and save his mom there would be no black time hole, Ronnie wouldn't die, and the breaches would never have allowed Zoom to start his little crusade. 

My guess is though, that's thinking too small for the show runners. Barry's personal life may or may not be different, but it will have affected the rest of the world too, which in this case is the other CW shows (though only on the Flash, they're not THAT stupid). Star City will be a smoking ruin, because Oliver died earlier thanks to Barry not being around and Waller nuked it to stop Slade. Sara died again so she was not available for Rip to recruit and the whole LoT gang failed without one of their key components. To his surprise it will come up that Kara and Clark also died somewhere in the past, perhaps stopping the Fort Rozz gang, which is weird because they were obviously not part of his world before.

Ultimately, Barry decides he has to put right what he put wrong, and not surprisingly the answer involves a lot of running.

[lion10]

They actually did it...Flashpoint Paradox here we come!  I wonder what will take the place of the Amazon vs Atlantean War?  Is this how we get Supergirl and Superman into the Flarrowverse?

[Lady Calypso]

18 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Okay, I just want to see if I have this right. When Barry was a kid he saw a red and a yellow blur swirling around his mother before she died. We find out later it was Reverse Flash and Barry from the future, fighting. Later, after he becomes the Flash, Barry goes back in time with the intent of saving his mother. He gets there, only to see another version of himself (separate from the one fighting Reverse Flash) shaking his head and telling him not to get involved. So he doesn't. After beating Zoom, Barry goes back in time to that same point again, where there is a version of him fighting Reverse Flash and that previously mentioned version of himself who already arrived to save his mother. The current version of Barry causes that previous version of Barry to disappear, because apparently he never went back that time? So now, Barry is in the past, with presumably both his mother and father alive? Which means, when he tries to go home either he won't be able to, because the point in time he left no longer exists because everything leading up to it changed or else he does go back but finds the world is a different place from the one he remembers.

 

Yeah, that's all true, which is why I think this changed timeline will be short lived, and it'll end with Barry using his superspeed to go BACK to that moment, replace season 2 finale dumbass Barry and then shake his head at season 1 finale dumbass Barry to revert back to the way things were. Technically, this should be causing a whole lot of issues, but I can see them brushing those issues aside. I mostly think they might have thought about this ahead because of the third Barry in the season 1 finale, and I do believe they'll revert the timeline back at some point next season, possibly within the first three episodes. I know technically, Barry going back shouldn't quite work because of season 1 finale Barry disappearing, but they might find a way around that. 

[benteen]

Even growing up with his parents, Barry would still know Joe and Iris.  He just wouldn't be as close with Joe.

[Aeryn13]

Wow, was this ending for real? Are they either not gonna address it, pretend turned out to be hunky dory and retcon the shit out of things or have they just erased the previously established timeline? Couldn`t believe my eyes. 

I get the pain over losing his mother and his grief over losing his father just now but are the relationships he made that worthless to Barry that he would trash them all like that? Does Joe being a father to him for all those years hold no value whatsoever? And even the person he has become, does that mean nothing to him? I think that was one of the most selfish things I`ve ever seen a superhero do.

Epic letdown of a Season Finale.

Oh, and I take it then that time wraiths are former speedsters who got punished and taken by other time wraiths? At least it looked like Zoom was becoming one.   

[benteen]

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Wow, was this ending for real? Are they either not gonna address it, pretend turned out to be hunky dory and retcon the shit out of things or have they just erased the previously established timeline? Couldn`t believe my eyes. 

I get the pain over losing his mother and his grief over losing his father just now but are the relationships he made that worthless to Barry that he would trash them all like that? Does Joe being a father to him for all those years hold no value whatsoever? And even the person he has become, does that mean nothing to him? I think that was one of the most selfish things I`ve ever seen a superhero do.

Epic letdown of a Season Finale.

Oh, and I take it then that time wraiths are former speedsters who got punished and taken by other time wraiths? At least it looked like Zoom was becoming one.   

It would be even worse is if Barry through those relationships away because he was angry about them locking him up, which they were 100% correct in doing.

[ElleMo]

Two thoughts -- wouldn't Barry saving his mother actually put the timeline back where it should be?  Thawne is the one who mucked up  the timeline in the first place.  And this would correct it, right?

BUT, it is not something he should have needed to do --- If Eddie killed himself and thus Eobard (sp?) Thawne never existed, and Barry's mom couldn't have been killed that night.

Time travel stories hurt my head.

Those wraiths are very convenient.  They come looking for Hunter Z. but aren't around when Barry's mom is killed and there are several speedsters mucking with the timeline. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by ElleMo

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

Okay, I just want to see if I have this right. When Barry was a kid he saw a red and a yellow blur swirling around his mother before she died. We find out later it was Reverse Flash and Barry from the future, fighting. Later, after he becomes the Flash, Barry goes back in time with the intent of saving his mother. He gets there, only to see another version of himself (separate from the one fighting Reverse Flash) shaking his head and telling him not to get involved. So he doesn't. After beating Zoom, Barry goes back in time to that same point again, where there is a version of him fighting Reverse Flash and that previously mentioned version of himself who already arrived to save his mother. The current version of Barry causes that previous version of Barry to disappear, because apparently he never went back that time? So now, Barry is in the past, with presumably both his mother and father alive? Which means, when he tries to go home either he won't be able to, because the point in time he left no longer exists because everything leading up to it changed or else he does go back but finds the world is a different place from the one he remembers.

But not everything needs to change.

For one thing, Eobard Thawne is still stuck in the past. Barry saving his mom doesn't alter that fact. He can still kill Harrison Wells, take his place, and create the particle accelerator earlier to make sure Barry becomes the Flash. Season 1 of the Flash can still happen mostly like it did. The only real difference, from Barry's perspective, might be that he grew up with his mom and dad and never met Joe or Iris. Which would kind of suck for Barry I guess. The ending would be different though, Since he never had to go back and save his mom there would be no black time hole, Ronnie wouldn't die, and the breaches would never have allowed Zoom to start his little crusade. 

My guess is though, that's thinking too small for the show runners. Barry's personal life may or may not be different, but it will have affected the rest of the world too, which in this case is the other CW shows (though only on the Flash, they're not THAT stupid). Star City will be a smoking ruin, because Oliver died earlier thanks to Barry not being around and Waller nuked it to stop Slade. Sara died again so she was not available for Rip to recruit and the whole LoT gang failed without one of their key components. To his surprise it will come up that Kara and Clark also died somewhere in the past, perhaps stopping the Fort Rozz gang, which is weird because they were obviously not part of his world before.

Ultimately, Barry decides he has to put right what he put wrong, and not surprisingly the answer involves a lot of running.

It took me awhile, but I basically concluded that as long as Thawne lives -not much changes because he will manipulate things to where he wants/needs them to be and little 11 year old Barry won't have a clue.

So they can isolate this new timeline big time - it could all come down to Barry didn't grow up with Joe and Iris. Hell, his parents could even be dead - just for different reasons. It would be fitting and all kinds of appropriate if Barry returns to the future and his parents still died - just later in life. He is still the Flash, the city is full of metas, Thawne is still posing as Harrison Wells and the team doesn't have a clue, and he has no relationship with Joe (outside of work) and Iris is practically a stranger (because they lost touch after high school). So all he did by saving his mom was lose the most important relationships in his life.

That's what I expect this all to come down to so they can keep the fallout relatively contained the Flash and not impact LoT or Arrow.

[Cthulhudrew]

14 hours ago, Jenesis said:

Damn, Caitlyn is a worse actress than Danielle Panabaker.

LOL! I wonder how many takes that scene went? "Yes, like that again, but even worse this time!"

Quote

Ugh on the second WestAllen kiss to be wiped out of existence.

God forbid the two of them ever actually start sleeping together...

Iris: "Barry, I have something to tell you. I'm pregnant!"

Barry, after the initial shock of realizing he's about to be a father wears off: "Wow, Iris. That's... that's great."

Iris: "Let's go inside and tell the others!"

Barry: "I'll be in in a second. I've just got something to take care of first..."

[Cthulhudrew]

14 hours ago, maczero said:

Barry is going to keep shitting all over the timeline and start going back in time for the most trivial reasons.   Next season starts with Barry going back in time because he didn't use his Arby's coupon before it expired.

I would actually be okay with this. There's nothing worse in the multiverse than finding out you have to pay full price for a single Arby's melt or chicken-bacon-swiss sandwich when you had your heart set on a two-for-one.

[VCRTracking]

I HATED "Flashpoint" in the comics so much. DC decided to take Barry Allen who was this revered hero who made the ultimate sacrifice saving the DC universe and was the inspiration for Wally, Impulse, bring him back to life(ripping off Steve Rogers' dealing with modern times), make his backstory more tragic(to make him more angsty and "interesting") and turn him to the prick so who altered the timeline, changing everything for selfish reasons.

Bruce Wayne dying instead of his parents in the alley and Thomas becoming Batman and Martha going insane becoming the Joker was the shit flavored cherry on top of that.

That's why my reaction to Geoff Johns made to oversee DC feature films got a less-than-enthusiastic response because he wrote all of that.

Edited May 25, 2016 by VCRTracking

[kirkola]

14 hours ago, Jenesis said:

Damn, Caitlyn is a worse actress than Danielle Panabaker.

I keep going back and forth on Danielle Panabaker.  How much of it is a bad actor being bad versus a decent actor trying to be awful.

I really liked her acting on both Shark and later Justified.  I was really looking forward to seeing what she did on Flash.  And then, on Flash, for whatever reason, they have her making odd faces at weird times.  And then there was this Zoom scene where the acting was just off the charts wooden.  I really think it's more bad direction than acting.  But if you look at her role over the course of the two seasons, they've had her "closed off" from losing Ronnie.  Then "closed off" from losing him a second time.  Then "awkward courtship" with Jay/Hunter/Zoom.  Then "closed off" because she's yet again lost at love.  Then there was the whole "maybe she'll be Killer Frost" awkwardness.  Before finally reaching the awkwardness of "Zoom kidnapping and subsequent release". 

It's like they don't know what else to do with Caitlyn Snow except make her the weird science girl no one would talk to in the real world. 

 

Of course, I have the same problem with Iris West too.  They can't seem to figure out what to do with her.  Now that they've solved her storyline of "she doesn't know", they've reduced her character to standing around STAR labs waiting for something to happen so she can...wear cute outfits.  (Don't get me wrong, the outfits are cute...but why can't do stuff independently that would assist the team. 

 

Strong female characters aren't window dressing.

[Xenith22]

Those wraiths are very convenient.  They come looking for Hunter Z. but aren't around when Barry's mom is killed and there are several speedsters mucking with the timeline.

If the Wraiths were looking for Zoom where were they when he was knocked ass backwards into the breach aka their home?   For that matter I am still trying to understand Team's plan?  What were they actually hoping to accomplish?   I mean have we not established that Zoom has been running back and forth between the two Earth's for awhile now?   Why would it have taken any time at all for him to return and snap their necks?

Also the claim that they could not turn the Magnetar off without destroying the Earth seemed dumb...I mean did the thing not require a power source to run?   Was that power source not speedsters?   How was it going to have the energy to destroy the Earth without that power?   And why could you just not blow the thing the heck up it's not like the device itself was an bomb...   Aaaaaargh.

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, KirkB said:

Okay, I just want to see if I have this right. When Barry was a kid he saw a red and a yellow blur swirling around his mother before she died. We find out later it was Reverse Flash and Barry from the future, fighting. Later, after he becomes the Flash, Barry goes back in time with the intent of saving his mother. He gets there, only to see another version of himself (separate from the one fighting Reverse Flash) shaking his head and telling him not to get involved. So he doesn't. After beating Zoom, Barry goes back in time to that same point again, where there is a version of him fighting Reverse Flash and that previously mentioned version of himself who already arrived to save his mother. The current version of Barry causes that previous version of Barry to disappear, because apparently he never went back that time? So now, Barry is in the past, with presumably both his mother and father alive? Which means, when he tries to go home either he won't be able to, because the point in time he left no longer exists because everything leading up to it changed or else he does go back but finds the world is a different place from the one he remembers.

But not everything needs to change.

For one thing, Eobard Thawne is still stuck in the past. Barry saving his mom doesn't alter that fact. He can still kill Harrison Wells, take his place, and create the particle accelerator earlier to make sure Barry becomes the Flash. Season 1 of the Flash can still happen mostly like it did. The only real difference, from Barry's perspective, might be that he grew up with his mom and dad and never met Joe or Iris. Which would kind of suck for Barry I guess. The ending would be different though, Since he never had to go back and save his mom there would be no black time hole, Ronnie wouldn't die, and the breaches would never have allowed Zoom to start his little crusade. 

My guess is though, that's thinking too small for the show runners. Barry's personal life may or may not be different, but it will have affected the rest of the world too, which in this case is the other CW shows (though only on the Flash, they're not THAT stupid). Star City will be a smoking ruin, because Oliver died earlier thanks to Barry not being around and Waller nuked it to stop Slade. Sara died again so she was not available for Rip to recruit and the whole LoT gang failed without one of their key components. To his surprise it will come up that Kara and Clark also died somewhere in the past, perhaps stopping the Fort Rozz gang, which is weird because they were obviously not part of his world before.

Ultimately, Barry decides he has to put right what he put wrong, and not surprisingly the answer involves a lot of running.

Not quite.  As I recall it, when Season 1 Barry went back in time he watched Future Flash and Reverse Flash fighting, during that fight Future Flash shook his head at Season One Barry, waving him off.  Barry ended up not saving his mother from death or his father from jail and went back to the present where Eddie killed himself to stop Eobard.

That's all changed.  Current Barry went back in time, attacked and either killed or incapacitated Reverse Flash, saving his mother.  At that point Season One Barry faded out of existence since past Barry will grow into a different Barry who will have no reason to jump back in time to save his mother.  Presumable current Barry will do something with Thawne (like go back further in time and drop him down a dinosaur mouth) that ensures he'll never be a problem again.  Then he'll go back to the present and probably "overwrite" his other self and have to acclimate to a changed reality in which Harrison Wells the original is still alive (because won't have killed and replaced him and because Tom Cavanaugh is still a regular on the show).

I kind of like the possible situation here.  I was always holding my nose over West-Allen because the semi-incest thing was gross to me (I was adopted and the idea of dating my own sister is just... yeeccchhh).  It's a lot easier for me to accept Barry and Iris exiting a "friend zone" into a romance then them exiting a "sibling zone." 

Edited May 25, 2016 by johntfs

[chelsie]

Why couldn't Cisco create a cold gun to stop Zoom?

[VCRTracking]

I loved when Joe asked Iris after locking up Barry "Did we do the right thing?" and Iris was like "We did what we had to do." I was like "Yes! More pragmatic and determined Iris, please!" Too bad she'll different in the Flashpoint timeline.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Not quite.  As I recall it, when Season 1 Barry went back in time he watched Future Flash and Reverse Flash fighting, during that fight Future Flash shook his head at Season One Barry, waving him off.  Barry ended up not saving his mother from death or his father from jail and went back to the present where Eddie killed himself to stop Eobard.

That's all changed.  Current Barry went back in time, attacked and either killed or incapacitated Reverse Flash, saving his mother.  At that point Season One Barry faded out of existence since past Barry will grow into a different Barry who will have no reason to jump back in time to save his mother.  Presumable current Barry will do something with Thawne (like go back further in time and drop him down a dinosaur mouth) that ensures he'll never be a problem again.  Then he'll go back to the present and probably "overwrite" his other self and have to acclimate to a changed reality in which Harrison Wells the original is still alive (because won't have killed and replaced him and because Tom Cavanaugh is still a regular on the show).

I kind of like the possible situation here.  I was always holding my nose over West-Allen because the semi-incest thing was gross to me (I was adopted and the idea of dating my own sister is just... yeeccchhh).  It's a lot easier for me to accept Barry and Iris exiting a "friend zone" into a romance then them exiting a "sibling zone." 

I went back to rewatch this scene and you are right. I also thought it was the other way. There's been a lot of time travel on this show, alright? My head hurts from it sometimes. 

Now that you pointed the Reverse Flash problem out, in that Current Barry HAS to get rid of him somehow in order to ensure one less villain out of the way from harming people yet again for season 3, I wonder if they'll actually get rid of Eobard or if he'll end up being the big bad again in season 3, but this time not as Tom Cavanagh, letting him be the original Harrison Wells (that man gets to play a different Wells each season, so I can't wait to see how he's different this time). 

There's going to be a lot different that they can explore with. Iris/Barry I guarantee will probably not be a couple. In fact, I could easily see them not being friends for whatever reason. They knew each other before, but I wonder how close they were before Barry's mother was killed. They might just be civil acquaintances in order to be different than Earth-2 Iris and Barry. Although, it sadly won't be as different as Iris/Barry this past season. The two barely spoke for the first half of season 2, for crying out loud! 

[johntfs]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I went back to rewatch this scene and you are right. I also thought it was the other way. There's been a lot of time travel on this show, alright? My head hurts from it sometimes. 

Now that you pointed the Reverse Flash problem out, in that Current Barry HAS to get rid of him somehow in order to ensure one less villain out of the way from harming people yet again for season 3, I wonder if they'll actually get rid of Eobard or if he'll end up being the big bad again in season 3, but this time not as Tom Cavanagh, letting him be the original Harrison Wells (that man gets to play a different Wells each season, so I can't wait to see how he's different this time). 

There's going to be a lot different that they can explore with. Iris/Barry I guarantee will probably not be a couple. In fact, I could easily see them not being friends for whatever reason. They knew each other before, but I wonder how close they were before Barry's mother was killed. They might just be civil acquaintances in order to be different than Earth-2 Iris and Barry. Although, it sadly won't be as different as Iris/Barry this past season. The two barely spoke for the first half of season 2, for crying out loud! 

We've never really encountered the original Earth 1 Harrison Wells except during Eobard's flashback story, so he might be the Wells going forward from here.

Iris and Barry were really good friends as children (which was one reason Joe was okay with fostering/adopting young Barry).  As for current Iris/Barry, we might get a situation where Iris and Barry are dating but Iris the cop hates the Flash because he didn't save her partner/fiance, Eddie.  That sounds like this show.

[Kip]

So, I wonder if they are using Idiot Barry causing a Paradox as a reason that Supergirl ends up on Earth 1, to play with the other shows.

[Kromm]

5 hours ago, nksarmi said:

It took me awhile, but I basically concluded that as long as Thawne lives -not much changes because he will manipulate things to where he wants/needs them to be and little 11 year old Barry won't have a clue.

So they can isolate this new timeline big time - it could all come down to Barry didn't grow up with Joe and Iris. Hell, his parents could even be dead - just for different reasons. It would be fitting and all kinds of appropriate if Barry returns to the future and his parents still died - just later in life. He is still the Flash, the city is full of metas, Thawne is still posing as Harrison Wells and the team doesn't have a clue, and he has no relationship with Joe (outside of work) and Iris is practically a stranger (because they lost touch after high school). So all he did by saving his mom was lose the most important relationships in his life.

That's what I expect this all to come down to so they can keep the fallout relatively contained the Flash and not impact LoT or Arrow.

Well the other way to do that would be to put Flash Season 3 in a bubble, metaphorically. It's tougher, because of how much we know they love crossovers (and because we've already heard talk of the supposed 4 show crossover), but what they could do is ON The Flash make things wildly different, but not intersect with the plots or events of any other show. But outside of the show, nothing's changed. The implication being that Flash Season 3 is a loop that's inevitably fated to work itself out. You can even have Barry appear OFF of The Flash as if nothing's changed--because from the perspective of THAT Barry nothing did. The tricky part is what you do on The Flash itself during the actual crossover episode. If you say... simply show an alternate Oliver Queen showing up (or maybe a not dead Laurel Lance), how do you integrate the PLOT of that episode with the other shows? I actually think even that's possible if the crossover is some event that spans different realities and the story is people in each reacting to it (thus explaining how Supergirl comes into the mix too). 

[Grace19]

6 hours ago, kirkola said:

I keep going back and forth on Danielle Panabaker.  How much of it is a bad actor being bad versus a decent actor trying to be awful.

I can't remember whether I have ever commented on Danielle Panabaker's acting, but I am compelled to now. I always thought she is not a good actress, but this episode takes the cake, she was terrible. I was completely taken out of the scene. So yes, it was a bad actor being bad. Now on the other hand, Grant keeps blowing me away and Candice is a pretty good actress too.

 

[ruby24]

I've commented many times about Danielle's acting, but I guess I need to chime in here. That was probably the worst I've ever seen her or maybe anyone on a CW show (Chase Crawford was always pretty bad on Gossip Girl though).

Man, that was horrendous. I agree, it completely took me out of the scene the longer she spoke.

I find it hard to believe they can be unaware of this behind the scenes.

[Grace19]

I think I actually enjoyed this episode more than most.

The flash is a character known for time travels and stuff, and thats one of the things that drew me to this series. So going in I knew this character was always going to be kind of selfish since time travel involves changing things I didn't like regardless of how it might affect others. Yes, it is not a great superhero look, but I figured I have to suspend belief and as far as it is entertaining I will enjoy it.

When I started this show last season, I loved every part of it, Barry as a goofy guy, Wells/Eeobard as a great villain, Joe and Iris as Barry's family, Cisco and Caitlin as sidekicks and finally westallen. there was hardly any part of the show I hated. Then this season everything went downhill, they wasted 2A setting up LOT and also wasted time on Patty who added zilch to the show. Zoom who was menacing at first lost his edge once he was unmasked and the show stopped making sense and became a chore for me. Fans predicted almost everything with jay as zoom and Henry's doppleganger as the real Jay and the man in the iron mask. The only thing that was a little consolation was that westallen picked up a bit in 2B and we got some iris POV and Iris ass a bad-ass in earth2 and 21st episode.

But as a fan, thats not the only reason I watch this show. Westallen went from one of the tings I enjoyed to the only thing I loved. I was already bored with this show until the last  few minutes of this episode. I know I'm in the minority here, but I love that Barry changed the time-line.

Now this is why:

1. I know it won't last so at some point he is going to undo it.

2. Barry needed  to do this so he can finally move on with is life, and as someone pointed out, there was a reason one of the Barrys in last season finale told him not to save his mom, that Barry must have undone it at some point and had to learn the hard way.

3. Barry has never really faced a terrible consequence for time travel, this could be it.

4. the main reason I love this is that this is a great opportunity to breath life back into this series. most thing except for the time paradox have been predictable, with is finale we have no idea where they might go with this, its so exciting for me. I am excited for this series again.

Yes it can still go wrong, so writers please don't let me down.
 

[Grace19]

I know some westallen fans are worried about this, but the thing is that Barry and Iris were already friends before his mother died, so I think they are still going to be friends. The exception will be if Barry and his family moved away from central city. Even at that, when they meet again its not going to be as strangers. I think there is a reason the writers had Iris make that promise to Barry about waiting for him no matter where he goes, they are not going to be separated for long. So, I'm not worried, I can't wait for next season.
 

[xaxat]

As Katherine Janeway said,

Quote

 Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.

[catrice2]

I am a superhero fan, but I admit I probably now the least about The Flash. I was mad when they made a Justice League cartoon about how important the Flash was, because to me he does not hold a candle to Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, et. al.  I have not idea what Flashpoint is, but if it is not a way to go back and fix the mess this season was, I am not invested at this time.  I am sorry, but Caitlyn brings nothing to the show. I am all for her embracing her darkness if it will make her one iota interesting. 

I still don't believe these people in their professions because they act so immature. Flashpoint or not, Barry's actions are frequently so selfish and reckless, Cisco is the class clown from  high school that tries to be cool.  Iris does not seem to have a purpose except to prop and console Barry and be a fashion plate.  If they are not going to pursue a romance, write her out, although I think she is one of the better actors on the show. 

In some ways Jesse L. Martin seemed to be phoning it in part of the season.  Is it terrible that I don't remember most of the episode because it was so bland?  After the big Zoom build up...a race?   Zoom was not well developed and his motives seemed really stupid. 

No passionate kiss before the race, a hug or acknowledgement that this may be the last time they see each other? 

Wally was annoying, and so was Jesse.  Unlike others, I have not liked Tom Cavanaugh in either role, but preferred him as the evil Wells. 

Both Flash and Arrow were must see tv fo me in their first seasons, but have now just become something to pass time, or to watch with the small hope that they will get better. 

[millennium]

9 minutes ago, xaxat said:

As Katherine Janeway said,

IIRC, the Time Police came after Janeway for flagrant abuses of the timeline.   She should have cut a deal and given up Barry Allen.

[ruby24]

I would have liked Barry and Iris's kiss to be a lot more passionate. I see a lot of people saying that Grant Gustin is just incapable of bringing any kind of heat or coming across as sexual in any way, and I'm sure that kiss did absolutely nothing to allay those concerns.

I wonder if the show will give those two a sex scene like Oliver/Felicity's. I'll be honest, it's kind of hard to imagine it.

[thuganomics85]

Personally, I really liked Danielle Panabaker in everything she's done before this, and I was really looking forward to her here going in, but I do think she's been struggling in this role lately: especially this season.  I think some of it was because of the horrible writing Caitlin's been saddled with, but she has just gone way to broad lately.  As for the scene where she is tricking Zoom, even though it was suppose to be Caitlin being kind of bad on purpose, I think a comparison would be between that and the one Barry and Linda Park did to try and trick Zoom into coming out.  It was also suppose to be the characters acting bad on purpose, but unlike here, I felt like Grant Gustin and Malese Jow performed it in a way where it was funny and entertaining, and not cringy, like Danielle was here.  Not sure what it was, but she was just lacking something that the other two brought.

But it's really weird/interesting that Danielle has had extensive acting experience and is so off lately, while Carlos Valdes pretty much came straight out of theater and this is his first TV role, and I think he's nailed Cisco.  It is funny how these things play out sometimes.

Edited May 26, 2016 by thuganomics85

[ottoDbusdriver]

9 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Two thoughts -- wouldn't Barry saving his mother actually put the timeline back where it should be?  Thawne is the one who mucked up  the timeline in the first place.  And this would correct it, right?

BUT, it is not something he should have needed to do --- If Eddie killed himself and thus Eobard (sp?) Thawne never existed, and Barry's mom couldn't have been killed that night.

Time travel stories hurt my head.

Those wraiths are very convenient.  They come looking for Hunter Z. but aren't around when Barry's mom is killed and there are several speedsters mucking with the timeline. 

How many versions of Barry are in the Allen home that fateful evening in 2000.  There is young Barry and at least 3 Flash Barry's by now -- or are they all time remnants (FFS !) plus Eobard Thawne. The Time Wraiths should be all over this.

[Chip]

Please remember that no comic spoilers should be brought into these threads. 

[bettername2come]

All right, positive things.

1. Flash teamwork. I love them working together to betray Barry. I love them all together for the final showdown. I love Barry's "they're the reason I run."

2. Tiny moment, but Iris's "You got this, girl" when Caitlin was tricking Zoom made me smile. For all the lack of writing for the women, they've been consistent having them support each other.

3. Wally. I love him more and more with each episode. Nice family bonding, cute moment with Jesse.

4. John Wesley Shipp as Jay Garrick. I've never seen the original series, but I appreciate the homage.

5. Westallen love. Yes. Definitely yes.

 

Not so positive:

1. God, Danielle Panabaker. I want her to step up her game because she used to do better, and I've seen some speculation that she could be killed off similar to Laurel because they don't know what to do with her. And I would hate that because I want to like her and she really does seem to get along well with the cast. And Caitlin saves lives. She's smart and she calls Barry and Cisco on their stupidity, and she lights up when she saves people and she should be better. 

2. The time wraiths should get Barry. He's a menace.

Quote

How many versions of Barry are in the Allen home that fateful evening in 2000.  There is young Barry and at least 3 Flash Barry's by now -- or are they all time remnants (FFS !) plus Eobard Thawne. The Time Wraiths should be all over this.

I think we can safely assume that current timeline Barry will be the one to hold up his hand and stop Barry from saving Nora. That version didn't seem to be there, so I think he'll learn his lesson AGAIN and stop Red Logo Barry.

Edited May 26, 2016 by bettername2come

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I think the thing that the final minutes of TRoHL highlights, is just how egotistically selfish Barry Allen is - or at least, that's how he's portrayed, and that's going back to last season as well [expecting Iris to fall for him after time/events were changed, risking a city/state/country/world destroying black hole to go back and save mommy].

You aren't just changing your own history here, Barry, you're changing the WHOLE WORLD's history.   So many hopes & dreams, accomplishments/achievements, and even lives were altered or erased just because you missed your mommy and daddy.

I get it, you've been dealt some really shitty hands, but guess what buddy?   There's this little thing called 'life' I'd like to introduce you to.   The SpeedForce needs to pull you back into itself and pull you over its knee for the spanking of a lifetime, you overgrown spoiled brat.

[ParadoxLost]

So, a question.

Who feeds and cares for the meta humans?  As soon as Barry is locked up, first thing I think is how is he going to get fed, shower, and use the bathroom.  Never considered that before,

[driedfruit]

4 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I think I actually enjoyed this episode more than most.

The flash is a character known for time travels and stuff, and thats one of the things that drew me to this series. So going in I knew this character was always going to be kind of selfish since time travel involves changing things I didn't like regardless of how it might affect others. Yes, it is not a great superhero look, but I figured I have to suspend belief and as far as it is entertaining I will enjoy it.

When I started this show last season, I loved every part of it, Barry as a goofy guy, Wells/Eeobard as a great villain, Joe and Iris as Barry's family, Cisco and Caitlin as sidekicks and finally westallen. there was hardly any part of the show I hated. Then this season everything went downhill, they wasted 2A setting up LOT and also wasted time on Patty who added zilch to the show. Zoom who was menacing at first lost his edge once he was unmasked and the show stopped making sense and became a chore for me. Fans predicted almost everything with jay as zoom and Henry's doppleganger as the real Jay and the man in the iron mask. The only thing that was a little consolation was that westallen picked up a bit in 2B and we got some iris POV and Iris ass a bad-ass in earth2 and 21st episode.

But as a fan, thats not the only reason I watch this show. Westallen went from one of the tings I enjoyed to the only thing I loved. I was already bored with this show until the last  few minutes of this episode. I know I'm in the minority here, but I love that Barry changed the time-line.

Now this is why:

1. I know it won't last so at some point he is going to undo it.

2. Barry needed  to do this so he can finally move on with is life, and as someone pointed out, there was a reason one of the Barrys in last season finale told him not to save his mom, that Barry must have undone it at some point and had to learn the hard way.

3. Barry has never really faced a terrible consequence for time travel, this could be it.

4. the main reason I love this is that this is a great opportunity to breath life back into this series. most thing except for the time paradox have been predictable, with is finale we have no idea where they might go with this, its so exciting for me. I am excited for this series again.

Yes it can still go wrong, so writers please don't let me down.
 

I was onboard with you until the bolded. I would enjoy this twist if I thought the reboot was permanent and the show was going back to the drawing board and reshaping itself. Because like you, I've been tremendously bored with this season and become convinced the writers had fatigued themselves with the current form of the show. Otherwise, I think it's the opposite of breathing life into the show, because whatever is about to happen for however long (half a season? most of the season?) will be completely pointless, and when Barry gets back, we're back to the same tired format. 

 

Quote

Iris does not seem to have a purpose except to prop and console Barry and be a fashion plate.  If they are not going to pursue a romance, write her out, although I think she is one of the better actors on the show. 

They clearly mean to get Barry and Iris together eventually, if only for the sake of their famous descendants. Of course that could be delayed and left for season ten. Problem is, if they let the actress go and she snags another job, she's not likely to come back. Another problem is, they'll lose a chunk of their viewers, even if the endgame is still promised. Besides, if they keep her, they look more diverse (3 female characters and 4 POC). Since Berlanti is forever advertising his commitment to diversity, the last point matters a lot. lol 

Edited May 26, 2016 by driedfruit