S32.E14: Not Going Down Without A Fight / S32.E15: Reunion

[Dobian]

Congrats to Michelle, I think she was deserving.  And I think Aubry was deserving.  I knew Michelle had it won after the tribal was finished, though.  She had Julia, Cyd, Scott, and Kyle locked up.  I'm fine with how it turned out.

I thought this jury comported themselves extremely well.  They made a few sharp points but asked intelligent and thoughtful questions, and let the three answer.  Julia was very articulate.  Scott and Kyle, who I thought would just use their time to get on their soap box, used their time wisely.  Ironically, the one bitter juror was the one who never made it to the jury, Neal.

[simplyme]

I don't want to excuse what Neal said because it really was a jackass thing to say, but I also wonder how much of it was frustration that he was medevaced and then didn't even get to cast a vote as a jury member.  

[North of Eden]

Well I just watched now and I am not sure what I just saw....first we have a jury that....clearly was so dominated by bitterness that they basically threw away and entire season by  crowning a winner who did virtually NOTHING the entire game. They just completly held a grudge against those who outplayed, outlasted and outwitted them. Aubrey totally deserved to win and Tai at least deserved to get second instead of no votes....they actually played the game.

Then we have a reunion show where Cydney...in fourth place....is totally ignored to give time to some rich wing nut wearing a mop on her head...yes, a rich wing nut with a MOP ON HER HEAD (seriously WTF) and Drew Carey. In fact so much time wasted that we never got the special guest who was obviously Mark the Chicken....damnit I wanted to see Mark. What I did not want to ever see again is Cochrane.....Cochrane is totally played out.

Next season looks really stupid. I'm a GEN Xer and I completly can see my fellows being decimated in the physical challenges...it ridiculous!

On the plus side LOL at slimy Neal not even getting to cast a vote or even attend silently. Hated him since episode one when he was talking smack about the older people behind their backs...and Cydney's Mom...very impressive woman and I can see why Cyd is the way she is. 

Cyd and Aubrey for a second chance season all the way!

[Lamima]

26 minutes ago, simplyme said:

I don't want to excuse what Neal said because it really was a jackass thing to say, but I also wonder how much of it was frustration that he was medevaced and then didn't even get to cast a vote as a jury member.  

This. And it was instantaneous. He didn't even have a minute to absorb, unlike the douche bros who had umpteen weeks at Ponderosa to absorb losing but yet they still were bitter to the end. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Lamima

[Cynna]

26 minutes ago, simplyme said:

I don't want to excuse what Neal said because it really was a jackass thing to say, but I also wonder how much of it was frustration that he was medevaced and then didn't even get to cast a vote as a jury member.  

Totally! I really felt for him, he didn't get to pay much but *at least* he was going to participate in TC and voting. The, they pull him from the end. Not even letting him be at TC seemed needlessly cruel.

I hope this is the last time they pull a jury member.

[Lamima]

7 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

This thread is full of people saying she is the least deserving winner ever.  That equates to being a bad player.  It's not just a matter of people saying Michelle played well, but Aubry was better.  Instead there's a whole lot of 'Michelle only won cause she's pretty'.

 

If Deb really voted for Michelle then Michelle got the entirety of the female vote, so misogyny can't be used as the reason she won.

I don't think it was misogyny as much as it was pure bitterness and self absorption. Looking at Debbie's jury speaks, she was bitter still that Aubry put her name down. Julia was BFF with Michele. She swayed the douche bros plus they were all still bitter with Cyd and I think Aubry was super tight with Cyd (she had that brain connection...with Debbie, Joe and Aubry but she seemed to work off of Aubry the most so I think they were a tighter duo than we knew). So the 3 likely looked at Aubry as the equal partner in crime. And Aubry did want Julia out and one of the fellas. I think she was thinking it was best to keep 1 fella, Jason, as a goat but that might not have worked with this jury as we can see how it turned out with Michele.

[Cutty]

I don't think Michele played a bad game. There's a bit of overreaction about her gameplay online today. People are acting like she was Natalie Tenerelli or something. She's definitely not the worst winner ever. But she was just such a bland character. One of the more boring winners I can recall. People can blame the edit all they want but the odds are pretty high that she just didn't give them much to work with. She had a ton of confessionals this season, and I can't recall her saying anything interesting in any of them. It was just boilerplate. 

[ptuscadero]

On 5/19/2016 at 11:06 PM, MKL122788 said:

I like Michelle, but this isn't Natalie and Russell in Samoa. Aubry controlled the game, competed hard, and was actually likeable. To me, she played a superior game and would've been the better winner. That being said, Michelle is far from the worst winner ever. Vecepia will forever hold that title. I cannot imagine any scenario where a winner could be less deserving than Vecepia.

A-MEN. I'm disappointed in the outcome - hell, I was disappointed once Michelle made it to the final five - but, Vecepia. There was never a more undeserving or unlikeable winner in the history of this game. I came very close to giving up on this show after that season.

[MissEwa]

I think Michele's game was fine, probably? I don't really think there's a 'deserve to win' in Survivor - part of the show is that you have to convince the people who voted you out to give you money. It's what makes Survivor Survivor. So it doesn't really matter if they were bitter or they wanted to vote for a pretty girl or they hate geeks or whatever. But as a viewer, it was unsatisfying. Whether that's because Michele was boring or the edit was building to something else, or a combination of both, I'm not sure. 

It's drawn a bit of a comparison to the Russell/Natalie situation, but I think they're totally different. I think Samoa was from Day 1 the story of a villain getting his comeuppance. I know a lot of people liked Russell but the show didn't - thought he was a great character, but they didn't like him. They didn't try to get us to warm to him, or sympathise with him, or root for him. This season, on the other hand, Aubrey was a character that we were supposed to like and cheer for. Tai too. Michele was just sort of there, and if there was an 'underdog' edit, it was too subtle, IMO. I never felt like she was an underdog until Jeff said it at the reunion. 

I don't know though - something about this whole season just rubbed me the wrong way. There would be these episodes with this crazy gameplay and big blindsides and results that I really liked, but the whole thing was just underwhelming, and that goes for the result to, so I guess it's fitting, just forgettable. 

[Knuckles]

I thought I would be ok if either Michelle or Cydney won, but I was wrong. I really think Aubry was robbed...she was the most likely to tank the first few weeks and then somehow pulled herself together both physically and mentally. Her social game was the best really of any player. 

And Cydney was not treated well by the producers...she was physically strong, and again, used the hide in plain sight social game, and played well. To not give her some more respect was disappointing.

For an all star game, Aubry and Joe from the previous season could pair up and be unbeatable...and both share a total commitment to winning the game.

[LadyChatts]

2 hours ago, Lamima said:

I don't think it was misogyny as much as it was pure bitterness and self absorption. Looking at Debbie's jury speaks, she was bitter still that Aubry put her name down. Julia was BFF with Michele. She swayed the douche bros plus they were all still bitter with Cyd and I think Aubry was super tight with Cyd (she had that brain connection...with Debbie, Joe and Aubry but she seemed to work off of Aubry the most so I think they were a tighter duo than we knew). So the 3 likely looked at Aubry as the equal partner in crime. And Aubry did want Julia out and one of the fellas. I think she was thinking it was best to keep 1 fella, Jason, as a goat but that might not have worked with this jury as we can see how it turned out with Michele.

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but Michele didn't write her name down and was loyal and that's why she got her vote.  So it goes with what I thought, Michele had more friends on the jury and they were bitter at the other two for outplaying them.  Sorry, but I'll always be a strategy before social type viewer.  If all you have to do is be nice to the jury and not vote them off or piss them off more than the next person, what's the point of strategy?  Those are my least favorite seasons.

Edited May 20, 2016 by LadyChatts

[LanceM]

Well I would argue that using your social skills to builid strong relationships with all the other players that will want to make them want to vote you in the end is a strategy.

[azshadowwalker]

I would even argue that it's the most important strategy and skill. Whether it's possible for the editing to draw most people into the story of the strategy is one thing. I think showing her social interaction with so many people was the way they did that.  I certainly saw how Michele was the last one standing, and think her strategy of staying open to anyone was very good. She didn't let personal feelings, early alliances or anger shut down any possible alliance. Tai acted like an ass to her, she still stayed open to him. Aubry and company left her out of the Scot vote? She got over it. Julia needed to go? Okay. When she really needed it, she won immunity and rewards. And the vast majority of her opponents got to FTC with a favorable impression of her and her game. That's the skill that ultimately matters. 

If anyone had a reason to be bitter against Michele, it was Julia. Yet she voted for Michele. Aubry was incapable of voting people out and retaining their loyalty. That's her failure. Her strategy didn't take anything but getting to the end. The Russell Hantz bitter jury excuse doesn't convince me, even if the player isn't as offensive. Getting to the end with a jury that votes for you is the goal. Not just getting to the end. Aubry had a one track strategy: get to the end with two goats. Same as Julia's strategy. When Aubry lost a goat, she'd already sunk herself by not interacting with the people who were going to be voting for the winner. That's a failed strategy. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[princelina]

43 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but Michele didn't write her name down and was loyal and that's why she got her vote.  

Cydney was somewhat of a "bitter player" herself - easily pissed off and over-sensitive, even if she had the good sense not to let it show.  I don't think Aubrey wrote her name down ever except for the time that Cyd wrote Aubrey down, so neither of them was more "disloyal" than the other.  Of course I know that Cydney was close with both of those women, and she was a good sport right after losing the fire challenge, but I did get "bitter jury" vibes off of her during FTC  when she was addressing Aubrey, and felt that they were uncalled for.

[backformore]

This board has been wonky, so I might have missed the topic -   But, I couldn't take my eyes off Jason's weird choice of attire.   From the pastel floral jacket to the earlobe plugs (did they have WINGS?)  he was looking very strange.

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, LadyChatts said:

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but Michele didn't write her name down and was loyal and that's why she got her vote. 

So Cydney voted for Michele to win the million because Aubry didn't vote for Tai instead of Cyd (her only other option at that TC), which would have meant Aubry was voted out of the game.

I realize that terminology may vary, but I'd call that a bitter juror when you blame someone for not essentially voting themselves out, even if they come across as polite.

[SVNBob]

For everyone upset about Mark being left behind:  I doubt they could have brought him, even if they wanted to.  Like practically every country in the world, there are laws about importing live animals to the US, including permits, veterinary check-ups, and a quarantine period.  (Remember Johnny Depp and Amber Heard breaking the Australian laws for their dogs?)  TPTB had none of that prepared, because they never thought it might come up.

And as for Sia; I thought it was Courtney Yates at first.  It seemed like something she'd do.

[violet and green]

I don't know what they're saying, as referred to above on social media re the Natalie connection - but I have to say this win by Michelle, for me, is really up there with the WTF and disappointment of Natalie winning over Evil Russel. My only lasting memory of Natalie's gameplay was her hanging a truly woefully inappropriate-for-this-show pair of tiny YELLOW lace knickers or should I say g-string panties on a tree branch to dry. Gag.

In an unlikely coincidence, Michelle wore a yellow bikini. And another deeply unfavorite winner of mine, Parvarti, also looked nice wearing a yellow bikini. This is not why I watch this freaking show. (Parvarti, I will admit, did some things.)

God, such a depressing end to a season - and to cap it off, when I deleted all the eps of Survivor off my pvr that I'd been saving to rewatch (tainted now!)  it blew its little mind and now it refuses to record at all...

[himela]

I don't know if it was mentioned but I was shocked to watch Cydney's Ponderosa video; Scot, Jason and Julia were not TALKING to her at all. Well there's the proof that they were bitter, for those who still doubt it. These douches wanted to be left to play their game as they wanted it, vote people out, go to the final tribal council and persuade the jury to vote for them cause "it's a game" but they can't do the same. But I still believe that Aubry will come back to the game sooner than later and she'll do fine while these idiots will be remembered for what they are: pity little people.

[green]

What a totally blah and undeserving winner.  Yeah everyone here has said that already but just felt like piling on.  Never imagined she would get any vote other than Julia's.

Aubry deserved the win and Tai won my heart ... along with Mark the Chicken.  Cyd played well too and should have been in the final three except for the mere luck of the blah.  Those three are the only ones I'll remember from this season ever. 

Hope all three return in future seasons.  If Tai wants back he is a lock.  He was totally awesome.  Aubry was great and likeable and they hardly ever have any decent, smart women back on Survivor so hope she breaks their mold and comes back.  Cyd too.  But the fact that Survivor has only a small token black "population" who have a tendency of getting voted out early on by their white tribemate majorities (hmmmm) like the guy that left on the first vote on this season and she defied those  odds; I think she is a lock for their one "allowed" black female returnee slot.   She obviously deserves it for her play alone but hey this is Survivor where the casts have remained way whiter than the country as a whole for like forever.

I'm glad Tai got some swag for himself and some critters as well.  Even if it came from some crazy looking woman wearing a hat that was even more crazy.  I see here that she is called Sia.  See, I can see.  Unlike her with that stupid hat.  Obviously just another 15 minutes of fame gimmick person but at least she shared some wealth with Tai and some critters so kudos for that.   Bet Scott and Jason were pissed though that non-macho, little Tai got that while they were being ignored.

Edited May 20, 2016 by green

[wallflower75]

6 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

I would even argue that it's the most important strategy and skill. Whether it's possible for the editing to draw most people into the story of the strategy is one thing. I think showing her social interaction with so many people was the way they did that.  I certainly saw how Michele was the last one standing, and think her strategy of staying open to anyone was very good. She didn't let personal feelings, early alliances or anger shut down any possible alliance. Tai acted like an ass to her, she still stayed open to him. Aubry and company left her out of the Scot vote? She got over it. Julia needed to go? Okay. When she really needed it, she won immunity and rewards. And the vast majority of her opponents got to FTC with a favorable impression of her and her game. That's the skill that ultimately matters. 

This is why I wonder if I'll see more of Michele's game if I go back and rewatch the season, because those are very good points.  Sure, they don't flash "strategy! Here's how I'm going to win!"--but it's how she won.  She kept her options open.  I also wonder--if she'd been voted out, would she have been as bitter as most of that jury?

In the "mea culpa" department, it appears I must take back what I said during the live chat about Nick being a misogynistic jerk.  It appears that he, and he alone on that jury, may truly have had an open mind going into the FTC.  Heck, maybe I'm wrong and he was intending to vote for Aubry anyway, but he at least gave the appearance that his vote was open for debate.

[ProfCrash]

I don't think that Scot,Kyle or Julia would say that they were bitter. Kyle and Julia were positively giddy in their rejection of Aubrey's game and the three of them were all excited and happy to give Cydney the cold shoulder when she arrived at Ponderosa. They are so wedded to one world view and fail to see how their behavior isolated others in the game and out of the game. Honestly, they never moved past high school. It is slightly ironic that Kyle made a comment about Aubrey not moving outside her comfort zone and getting to know different type of people.

Nick is a bit narcissistic but he came across as a good guy in the Ponderosa videos and owned his self absorption. He seemed like a pretty good guy with a good outlook on life. Debbie made it clear that she would never vote for Aubrey as soon as she was voted off. I think Tai would have won if the final three had been Tai, Cydney and Aubrey.

[hyukx3]

Aubrey never was in control. She wasnt when she voted Debbie out. She wasnt when she voted Jason out. She wasnt the mastermind when it was group decision between Tai and Cydney.

[ghoulina]

On 5/19/2016 at 10:13 PM, Hanahope said:

 

I do think if Neal had stayed on the jury, he might have been able to sway a couple jurors, and if so, he was the best choice by Michele, so good for her. Joe was the easy, but ineffective choice

 

And, ironically, it may have been largely Aubry's fault that Neal went instead of Joe. I think Michele was going for Joe until Aubry started talking to her about people who could potentially sway the jury. I believe she was trying to push Scot, as if he'd really try to sway the jury for Tai? But it gave Michele and idea and she went for Neal instead. It was definitely a smart move. 

Michele wasn't a horrible player, and I can think of winners I was more unsatisfied with. But I was pretty damn unsatisfied. I was rooting for Aubry ever since she had that panic attack that made me think she was the first one out, but bounced back so quickly from it. She was a sharp player, but pretty damn good physically as well. And she was great at manipulating people, especially Tai. Tai made some pretty WTF moves over the course of this game, that I really believe were made because of conversations Aubry had with him. I found her to be one of the most relatable (for me) players they've had in awhile and I really really liked her. Sigh....

The reunion was fucking awful. Too much time spent on Tai; Cydney didn't even get spoken to! I don't care about Drew Carey, I don't care about Sia-whoever-the-fuck and her generous donation,  and while Debbie was amusing, Cydney should have been spoken to before anyone other than the final 3. Complete and utter BS. 

[Lamima]

When people mention Michele stayed loyal and her whole game was about not pissing off the jury members...well she wrote Debbie, Nick, Julia and Jason when they got voted off. The only one she didn't write was Scott and instead she wrote Tai and then was later credited for 'letting it go' when Tai wrote her name twice. Nah, her gameplay was to lay low and stay out of the line of fire and luck. Not much strategy in that. But Aubry and Tai wrote Scot when he got voted off so maybe all these dumb jurors were starstruck with the big troll and he swayed them to go Michele. If F3 had been Tai, Cyd and Aubry....man, that would have blown their little friggin minds. Not sure Tai would have won since he was the ultimate betrayer of the big oaf.

 

I will add that I really am more impressed with Nick as he didn't seem to be blinded by the bench sitter's celebrity.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Lamima

[ghoulina]

8 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but Michele didn't write her name down and was loyal and that's why she got her vote.  So it goes with what I thought, Michele had more friends on the jury and they were bitter at the other two for outplaying them.  Sorry, but I'll always be a strategy before social type viewer.  If all you have to do is be nice to the jury and not vote them off or piss them off more than the next person, what's the point of strategy?  Those are my least favorite seasons.

Completely agree. I respect that there are different ways to win this game, and different things people appreciate about it. But for me, personally, I really value strategy, not social game. I mean, I'm not saying neglect the "social" completely. Aubry wasn't an unbearable ass to everyone or anything. She had good friends and never seemed to have any huge blowouts with anyone. But yea, I'm just not down with someone winning because they are nice to everyone. It's just not enough for me. Granted, Michele did win quite a few challenges when it really mattered. But I just found Aubry's strategizing to be much more exciting than Michele's game play. 

It's so hard to say, because you can't ever know for sure which way a jury is going to go. 

[laurakaye]

Forgive me if this was covered, but why did Nick vote for Aubry and not Michelle...was he ticked that Michelle "played dumb" when all that time, Nick actually thought she was, in fact, dumb?

If Michelle won based on the assholic (love that word) nature of the jury, then I say good for her.  She may not be a memorable winner, but she's right when she says her social game was her strength.  I can't hate on Michelle for winning, but at the same time, I can hate on the jury members that voted for her simply because they were bitter babies.  Julia, Scot, Kyle, Foley and Will can all sit together in a dimly lit bar, clinking glasses of cheap beer and smirking about how they actually won their seasons even if they didn't get the money, while surreptitiously checking their phones for texts from Probst, begging them to come back.

[truthaboutluv]

I don't hate Michelle for whatever reasons the assholes voted for her, but it still won't make me say she played a better social game because I don't think she even did that. Again, Michelle just fell in line with the numbers and played dutiful solider and so never had a chance to piss off the assholes because she never made any decisions and any big moves against them. So next to Tai, who had the audacity to not allow Scott and Jason free reign to the end and Aubry the woman and oh the "geeky" woman who dared to play her game that challenged them, well Michelle was the winner. The pretty little woman who never stood up to them. 

I also forgot about one of the dumbest moments of the night - Julia stating how when Michelle voted against her, that was when Michelle made her big move and started playing smart and for herself. Um, Michelle voted for Julia because she had NO freaking choice because the numbers were against them. Her vote didn't even matter because Julia's ass was still going to be eliminated, with or without Michelle. The minute Tai did not play that idol for Scott, causing him to be eliminated, the team of Julia and Jason were outnumbered. So when Aubry, Cydney, Tai and Joe were all in agreement on voting Julia out, what choice did Michelle have exactly? Especially since her strategy was clearly to just be the dutiful solider. Julia acting like that move was such a cutthroat, hardcore move on Michelle's part is freaking laughable. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Jersey Guy 87]

I was pulling for Aubry, had I been on the jury I would have voted for her.  But, of course, I wasn't on the jury because I wasn't actually playing the game.  My perceptions are swayed by what they chose to show us, I don't have the full picture of what went on out there.

I'm okay with Michelle winning, although I had her ranked last before the episode ran.  She wasn't shown as being involved in a lot of the strategy discussions and she was left in the dark on the critical Scot vote (because of her perceived loyalties to Julia).  However, she was willing to adapt and vote out some of her supposed allies - Julia and Nick.  She won challenges at the end when she absolutely had to (and yeah, that definitely counts for something).  She did a great job in the final tribal council (actually, I thought all three of them did - there were no real blunders by anyone which is very rare).  When she won the final reward she voted out the right person (Neal).  I thought she got lucky a couple of times, but so did Aubry (she likely would have been voted out the Neal medevac episode).  The social game matters and Michelle played the best of the final three.  It's somewhat ironic that Tai (who has been justly criticized for not playing a great strategic game) knew Michelle had to go better than Aubry.

Haven't watched the reunion, probably won't.  The reunions always suck.

[Dobian]

First off, I forgot to mention that I was sorry to see Cyd not make it to the final three at the end.  I would have rather seen here there than Tai.  As for who played the better game, I personally would have picked Aubry, she played the best game.  I disagreed with Scott, I don't see how Michelle was getting stronger while Aubry was getting weaker (maybe Tai, but Aubry was playing a smart and gutsy game right up to the final tribal).  I thought both Michelle and Aubry played great down the stretch.  Tai didn't deserve to win because he played a lousy social game.  He should have stuck to his alliance with the bad tats, then use his advantages to protect himself down the stretch.  I disagree that Michelle did nothing,  She played a great social game and she won challenges.  She was frequently at the bottom of her alliance and maneuvered enough to stay in it. So I'm fine with her winning.

[omophagia]

Michele would have been my third choice of the three women who were left in the game at the start of the episode, but I believe all three women had solid but not unassailable cases they could make for themselves. Aubry and Michele both made their cases fairly well, I thought, at FTC, but it was clear that the jury was (1) uncommonly self-righteous and smug though not necessarily the most bitter jury ever and (2) simply not receptive to all of Aubry's arguments. I thought her reply to Debbie's question, for instance, came across as calculated and insincere, even though, historically, the reply of, "Golly gee, I'm sorry I had to vote you out because you were my biggest threat," has been the correct reply to sway an individual juror-- it's how Chris won Vanuatu and Todd made Jean-Robert look even more foolish in China.

Michele was able to pick up on the narrative the jury had created for her and to validate that, making the jury feel smart and perceptive and justified in their feelings, regardless of whether the edit really showed how they got there. It's definitely a dissatisfying conclusion to a bottom-tier season, but I can't see Michele being in contention for the very worst winner alongside Bob, Vecepia, Cochran, or Fabio. Bottom-tier, sure, but not at the very bottom.

[ghoulina]

27 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

 

I don't hate Michelle for whatever reasons the assholes voted for her, but it still won't make me say she played a better social game because I don't think she even did that. Again, Michelle just fell in line with the numbers and played dutiful solider and so never had a chance to piss off the assholes because she never made any decisions and any big moves against them.

 

Agree with this. I won't downplay very strong social moves, but I don't even think it was intentional with Michele. She was just the "nicest" out of the final 3, the least offensive. It's not like everyone just LOVED Michele, they just liked her more than the other 2. I see a phenomenal social players as someone like JT, who was SUCH a huge threat, but so well liked he was barely even talked about as an option at tribal. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by ghoulina

[hyukx3]

3 minutes ago, Dobian said:

First off, I forgot to mention that I was sorry to see Cyd not make it to the final three at the end.  I would have rather seen here there than Tai.  As for who played the better game, I personally would have picked Aubry, she played the best game.  I disagreed with Scott, I don't see how Michelle was getting stronger while Aubry was getting weaker (maybe Tai, but Aubry was playing a smart and gutsy game right up to the final tribal).  I thought both Michelle and Aubry played great down the stretch.  Tai didn't deserve to win because he played a lousy social game.  He should have stuck to his alliance with the bad tats, then use his advantages to protect himself down the stretch.  I disagree that Michelle did nothing,  She played a great social game and she won challenges.  She was frequently at the bottom of her alliance and maneuvered enough to stay in it. So I'm fine with her winning.

Tai would have no protection if he stick with the boys. He have to give up his idol to do the super idol plan. Then the boys would vote Tai out becoz they dont think they can beat him in FT, as they discussed in the show.

[NutMeg]

28 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Forgive me if this was covered, but why did Nick vote for Aubry and not Michelle...was he ticked that Michelle "played dumb" when all that time, Nick actually thought she was, in fact, dumb?

If Michelle won based on the assholic (love that word) nature of the jury, then I say good for her.  She may not be a memorable winner, but she's right when she says her social game was her strength.  I can't hate on Michelle for winning, but at the same time, I can hate on the jury members that voted for her simply because they were bitter babies.  Julia, Scot, Kyle, Foley and Will can all sit together in a dimly lit bar, clinking glasses of cheap beer and smirking about how they actually won their seasons even if they didn't get the money, while surreptitiously checking their phones for texts from Probst, begging them to come back.

You know, for all the people who think most jurors voted for Michele because they liked her - well, Nick liked Aubry very much, and said so in an episode (the one he was voted off, if I remember right), while stating that unfortunately he was still going to have to go against her because their stategies were not aligned.

I remember this because it seemed so contrary that the image that Nick had had until then in the game (vain, only focused on appearance, etc.). But I now think that Nick's edit was just a huge joke and that there is much more to this guy that what he jokes there is. 

[LanceM]

5 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

You'll miss nothing by skipping this reunion.  Well, Michelle's dress was pretty.  And Aubry looked nice.  

I have trouble forgiving Michele not seeing Julia playing double agent.  It seemed kind of stupid that she and Debbie trusted Julia so completely when Cyd and Aubry saw right through her.  I don't think voting out your "closest alliance" (Michele's words, I would call Julia an ally, not an alliance) to show loyalty to others is really anything too laudable when your ally was telling your enemies how your side was voting for weeks, and you're the only one who wanted her kept around.  

Michele knew exactly what Julia was doing. There was a secret scene from that episode where she talks about it.  I don't think she felt threatened at all about because she knew Julia's first loyalty was with her and not the guys.

[SlackerInc]

9 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

I would even argue that it's the most important strategy and skill. Whether it's possible for the editing to draw most people into the story of the strategy is one thing. I think showing her social interaction with so many people was the way they did that.  I certainly saw how Michele was the last one standing, and think her strategy of staying open to anyone was very good. She didn't let personal feelings, early alliances or anger shut down any possible alliance. Tai acted like an ass to her, she still stayed open to him. Aubry and company left her out of the Scot vote? She got over it. Julia needed to go? Okay. When she really needed it, she won immunity and rewards. And the vast majority of her opponents got to FTC with a favorable impression of her and her game. That's the skill that ultimately matters. 

If anyone had a reason to be bitter against Michele, it was Julia. Yet she voted for Michele. Aubry was incapable of voting people out and retaining their loyalty. That's her failure. Her strategy didn't take anything but getting to the end. The Russell Hantz bitter jury excuse doesn't convince me, even if the player isn't as offensive. Getting to the end with a jury that votes for you is the goal. Not just getting to the end. Aubry had a one track strategy: get to the end with two goats. Same as Julia's strategy. When Aubry lost a goat, she'd already sunk herself by not interacting with the people who were going to be voting for the winner. That's a failed strategy. 

Yeah, I just skimmed this topic because I have a hard time dealing with all the unfair negativity aimed at Michele, so I'm glad there are a few diamonds in the rough like this comment.  I just want to point out that I was touting Michele as a very strong and unjustly overlooked player back in March, and then three weeks ago I said :

"Really surprised Michele continues to get so little attention after the very strong episode she had this past week.  For my money, she is one of the best Survivor players of all time."

So for all the people who are saying she "didn't do anything" or whatever, not so.  She was doing stuff, and it was shown, but it was apparently just too subtly diplomatic for many viewers.
 

8 hours ago, simplyme said:

So Cydney voted for Michele to win the million because Aubry didn't vote for Tai instead of Cyd (her only other option at that TC), which would have meant Aubry was voted out of the game.

I realize that terminology may vary, but I'd call that a bitter juror when you blame someone for not essentially voting themselves out, even if they come across as polite.

No, you're looking at it backward.  She didn't vote against Aubry out of anger at Aubry for not voting herself out.  She was grateful to Michele, because Michele had immunity and could have just shrugged and said "whatever, I'll just go with the majority" and ended TC right there.  She was rewarding Michele having her back, not punishing Aubry.

Edited to add: At F4, everyone still in the game seemed to know Michele was a big threat.  Why else were they targeting her?  Just to be nice to each other?  I don't buy it.  So then Michele came through in that most important of clutch moments: at the final IC, when you are seen as the biggest threat to win, so you must win II or you are done.  That's a thoroughbred right there.

Edited May 20, 2016 by SlackerInc

[fishcakes]

8 hours ago, SVNBob said:

For everyone upset about Mark being left behind:  I doubt they could have brought him, even if they wanted to.

They couldn't have brought him in any case. Poultry from many other countries, including Vietnam, can't be brought to the U.S. because of bird flu. But this won't stop people from saying that Tai is an asshole for not bringing Mark home and giving him his own room in Tai's house because people often find facts to be pesky things.

 

3 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Nick is a bit narcissistic but he came across as a good guy in the Ponderosa videos and owned his self absorption. He seemed like a pretty good guy with a good outlook on life.

It surprises me, but Nick is someone I'd like to see play again. He seems like a different person in his Ponderosa videos, mature and self-aware. If anyone got a bad edit this season, I'd say it was Nick. I'd also like to see Debbie and Cydney get a return invitation and I would hope that the second time around we'd get to see Cydney's warmer side, which was obviously there all along because she seemed to have a lot of friends in the game, the asshole brigade of Scot/Jason/Julia notwithstanding, and see the Debbie we saw at Ponderosa who seems to have full access to her uncrazy side.

Edited May 20, 2016 by fishcakes

[Cornhusker12]

A couple more thoughts:

1. This may not seem like it, but I'm actually trying to defend Michele by saying - I don't think she is THAT incredibly pretty that she would get votes from the idiot dudes just for that reason. She is obviously a very good looking woman, but she doesn't have the sort of bombshell beauty that would blind guys who are thinking with something other than their brains.

2. Based off of that, I think it really was just the fact that she was outgoing and ended up conversing with and working with just about everyone in the jury at one point or another. Looking back, Aubry seemed to stick with the people she was super close with and didn't branch out and hang with the rest of the people as much. I think a lot of Aubry's strategic prowess was done without most of the jury realizing it.

3. Scot saying that Tai screwed up by never using his idol/advantage was ridiculous. He never needed to play them to get to the end, AND he made the move of the season by NOT using his idol. I'm just so glad to have Scot and Jason off our screens haha those guys drove me nuts.

4. I'm either an idiot or I totally missed something - who is Kyle?? Was someone going by a nickname this whole time?

[fishcakes]

Quote

who is Kyle??

Kyle is Kyle Jason, aka Jason, Bounty, Cupcake, dick, dick twin, douchebro, member of the Brotherhood of the Ugly Tattoos.

Edited May 20, 2016 by fishcakes

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

So for all the people who are saying she "didn't do anything" or whatever, not so.  She was doing stuff, and it was shown, but it was apparently just too subtly diplomatic for many viewers.

With all due respect, that sounds like a b.s. excuse for her not doing anything. "See it's not that she didn't do anything, it was just SO subtle as to almost be invisible and viewers just weren't intelligent enough to see the brilliance." Uh-huh... Or she just really didn't do much. I mean like I said, I will give her that she won immunity and some rewards when it absolutely counted for her, which is part of the outlasting part. And she wasn't as clueless or an idiot like Fabio. But I refuse to buy that there was some super amazing subtle powerful game Michelle was playing the whole time. No, in my opinion, she went with the numbers and would have been voted out like many others before her with that strategy, except that she won a key immunity when necessary and had a jury that didn't care for the people who played hard the whole game and screwed a bunch of them over.

 

Quote

No, you're looking at it backward.  She didn't vote against Aubry out of anger at Aubry for not voting herself out.  She was grateful to Michele, because Michele had immunity and could have just shrugged and said "whatever, I'll just go with the majority" and ended TC right there. 

And Aubry wisely picked up on that bullshit and tried to make Cydney realize that even that Michelle didn't really do because she thought Tai was voting with them and was going to vote Aubry out with her and Cydney. That's why Aubry interrupted Michelle's answering to ask her the question of if she knew it was going to be a tie. Sure once the tie happened she could have switched her vote but yeah at that point what would it benefit her to do so. Making them make fire meant that Aubry might go home, who she voted for anyway or Cydney loses but she could say, "hey I stuck to my word and voted Aubry."

 

Quote

Edited to add: At F4, everyone still in the game seemed to know Michele was a big threat.  Why else were they targeting her? 

Because they knew she had a lot of friends on the jury because she didn't piss anyone off because she never did anything. Jason and company would be pissed at Tai because it was his decision to keep his idol that doomed them, Aubry was never aligned with them and worked to get them out, specifically by working Tai and convincing him to side with them and not use the super idol. Michelle just quietly went about voting with the numbers, even to the point of voting the wrong person when the alliance clearly didn't even trust her to tell her who they were really voting for. Aubry and Tai correctly deduced that with the possibility of a bitter jury or at the least entitled as fuck, like Jason and Scott, Michelle was the biggest threat to win and they were right. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[riverheightsnancy]

I had heard at the beginning of the season that Probst said that Michele was a lot like Pavarti. In respect to the outcome of the show, does anyone think that he actually spoiled the show unintentionally or intentionally (in that we needed to watch her because the edit would be so subtle)?

I was team Debbie and Tai and for me, he actually spoiled the winner with that specific comment, even though I was rooting for Tai regardless of what anyone else did on the show (I cant' really be objective in terms of Aubry or Michele's game play, in other words). 

[simplyme]

I should probably clarify one more thing: Michele got the votes.  To me, by definition, that means she deserves the win.  I just like trying to analyze what happened.  Bad sports analogy warning!  It's like when you watch a football game, and one team is clearly the better team and dominates in pretty much every aspect, except at the end they still end up losing.  They don't deserve the win simply because by most metrics they would be judged superior.  They lost by the established protocol (the score), and no, we aren't going to change the system.  But it's sure fascinating to discuss WHY it happened.  Opinions will vary. :)

I'm curious how this would have played out differently had Aubry been the one who avoided TC (and the inevitable decision-making and conflict) for as long as Michelle had, or if Aubry had been the quieter partner in her alliance.  Michelle had Anna and Julia who took the blame before her.  Aubry had Joe and Neal, and let's be honest here, Joe wasn't calling any shots except regarding the fire. 

48 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

No, you're looking at it backward.  She didn't vote against Aubry out of anger at Aubry for not voting herself out.  She was grateful to Michele, because Michele had immunity and could have just shrugged and said "whatever, I'll just go with the majority" and ended TC right there.  She was rewarding Michele having her back, not punishing Aubry.

Ah, but do you think if Aubry had gone to Cyd and said, "Hey, let's vote Tai!" Cyd would have done it?  IMO, I don't think she would have.  I think Cyd thinks it was about loyalty, but I don't think it was.  Michele isn't stupid.  Voting for Aubry had nothing to do with loyalty to Cydney.  Michele correctly identified that Tai was no threat, and I'm sure she knew how Jason, Scot, and Julia felt about Cyd.  Therefore the obvious vote was Aubry and to get Cyd and Tai to go along with her.

[Al Herkimer]

I am mystified by the thought that Michelle is an undeserving winner.  Admittedly, I'm one of those who feels that by definition, the winner "deserves" to win, but I can typically understand that this winner or that one is less admirable, for various reasons.  But usually, it's because the winner in question either did something objectionable or that they didn't do something that they should have.  Michelle showed a very level head for the entire 39 days.  She was never picking fights, and she was very pragmatic about working with anyone, approaching anyone, even if she knew they had been plotting against her.  She never flipped out on the other players, or said something that the viewers at home found offensive.  She was smart about staying on the right side of the numbers, whatever it took.  And she won immunity and reward at crucial times, which is usually one of the most celebrated attributes when discussing winners.

Aubrey played a very good game, too.  There are always very good players who finish in the top four and who could have won if one or two things had gone differently for them.  I can understand people being disappointed by that happening to Aubrey.

But that doesn't take anything away from Michelle's win.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Al Herkimer

[candall]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 9:44 AM, lids said:

The whole Michele win makes me think about the recent news article that interviewed transgender men - i.e. men who used to be women. The men were saying that the differences in the way people treated them was alarming. They were often told to smile as women but no one ever told them that as men. Women are supposed to be seen as pleasant at all costs whereas men don't have to worry about that. Also, as women, the more decisions they made, the more they were scrutinized. As men, once they made a cut and dry decision, people bent over backwards to recognize why it was a good idea. 

SO interesting.

I had a transvestite friend who told me the first day he appeared in public dressed as a woman, he and another man smashed right into each other in a huge empty marble hallway.  He concluded it's always the woman who--subconsciously or otherwise--adjusts her walking speed when two people are on a collision course.

Sorry, still fascinated by the implications of that story.  Back to topic.

[truthaboutluv]

Quote

 But usually, it's because the winner in question either did something objectionable or that they didn't do something that they should have. 

YMMV but that's never been the reasons I have for not liking a winner. Any winners I've not cared for is because I thought they didn't play a very impressive game and in particular, other people sitting at the end with them played far more impressive games, which is exactly how I feel about Michelle's win. Listen she got the votes so yes, by that token she deserved her win but I personally will never be convinced she played some super impressive game that somehow the editing just hid. Like whatever debate there has been for years about whether or not the One World season was boring, I don't think one can truly say Kim didn't earn and deserve her win. I just don't see it with Michelle - I'm sure she is a lovely woman but this was a boring and meh season and it fittingly had a meh winner, IMHO. 

[ProfCrash]

Cydney had a good relationship with both Aubrey and Michele. She was working with both people so I could see her voting for either woman. I don't think Cydney was angry that Aubrey voted for her, after all she voted for Aubrey. I think she appreciated Michele not changing her vote and giving her a chance. In the end, she decided that Michele played a better game and I am fine with that.

I would have been happy with a Aubrey win but I can see why Michele won. She played the game she was handed, worked out of some tight situations, and was pleasant to be around. Aubrey's paranoia was not shown but Joe spent a long time in his Jury video on how wound up Aubrey was and how overwhelming it was. It doesn't sound like she was the most pleasant to be around, not because she was mean or petty but because she never stopped thinking/talking games. We did hear during the game that Aubrey did not talk to Julia or Kyle. We saw her struggle with her decisions to team with Scot and how that was sunk. So we saw why those three would not vote for her even if we did not see the high level of paranoia that was a common theme in the Jury votes videos.

I prefer Aubrey's game but that does not mean she deserved to win. She started the game with Debbie and was allied with Debbie's biggest ally, Joe, and was unable to secure Debbie's vote. She worked with Cydney but was unable to secure her vote. I don't think that Cydney or Debbie were voting based on who had the cuter butt (Joe did mention Michele's butt in his Jury video but was able to move past it and vote for Aubrey) so I don't think this comes down to beauty winning over brains.

Aubrey answered Scot's question saying that she played the game differently then Scot did but both were viable strategies. Well, Michele played the game using a different strategy then Aubrey and won with that strategy. Michele is not a top 10 winner nor is she at the bottom of the barrel for me. She played a good game but did not dominate. I am fine with her win.

[calico]

Quote

I know I personally found her voice so annoying I don't think I could take her seriously.  Is it vocal fry?  A Jersey accent?  Or just an unfortunate voice?

This may be another reason (in addition to being a talking head dud) that we didn't hear much from Michele until the last episode.  Mr. calico and I were trying to figure out what the accent was.  I know Jersey and it's not Jersey.  "Unfortunate" sounds about right. 

Quote

But the fact that Survivor has only a small token black "population" who have a tendency of getting voted out early on by their white tribemate majorities (hmmmm)

Blacks are 13% of the American population.  This season started out with 18 players, 3 of whom were black which is almost 16% of the Survivor population.  So not only are blacks not "tokens" they are generally slightly overrepresented (mainly because 13% of 18 is 2.34 and they round up instead of down).  In addition, there have been 10 blacks to make it to Final Tribal Council over the years out of 80 contestants which is 12.5% of the total - almost on par with the percentage of blacks playing.  

Edited May 20, 2016 by calico
grammar

[princelina]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't think that Scot,Kyle or Julia would say that they were bitter.

I don't think bitter jury members ever actually say that about themselves - they are usually just self-righteous and smug.

3 hours ago, laurakaye said:

 Julia, Scot, Kyle, Foley and Will can all sit together in a dimly lit bar, clinking glasses of cheap beer and smirking about how they actually won their seasons even if they didn't get the money, while surreptitiously checking their phones for texts from Probst, begging them to come back.

Like that :)

[candall]

11 hours ago, LadyChatts said:

I read an interview today with Cydney, who defended Michele as a winner.  She said she thought Aubry played a more strategic game, but [. . .]

Can't really get much plainer than that.

 

3 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

In a way I applaud the editors for leading us to believe Aubry had it in the bag [...]

Ha, I certainly thought Aubry had it in the bag.  Until someone on LiveChat pointed out FOUR votes would carry the day.  With Cydney still feeling the fresh sting of losing a head-to-head and low-watt Julia voting her bestie, what? the Jerky Boys are suddenly going to transform into founts of rational thinking and good sportsmanship?

Maybe they need to arrange for more people on the jury, not fewer.

[cherrypj]

I think the Survivor editors are masters at their game. They totally blindsided us and had most of us all rooting for Aubry. I was one of them, but now I think Michelle is Danni, part II. A good satisfying winner ... in retrospect.

 

16 hours ago, mojoween said:

Wait.  So they've wanted to bounce a juror for seven years, and they apparently liked it so much that they didn't even do it on the very next season?  I mean, I am cool with that because I hated the very idea, but don't act like it was the greatest idea since sliced bread, Jeff.

Jeff mentioned that they had to "tone" down the new things for season 30, which was filmed after 31, but aired before, so as to not blow the surprise. To leave something in tank, as you were.