S06.E12: Not Tomorrow Yet

[SimoneS]

Again, great episode. So much foreshadowing. Someone from the main group is definitely going to die by the time they encounter Negan in the season finale.

 

I really like Glenn and Heath's budding friendship. Glenn always picks up strays. It was difficult watching him kill a human for the first time and the way he to do it was tough. However, as always Glenn came through. 

 

I am glad that Carol had that sweet moment with Tobin. I have no problem with her introspection. Finally, settling down and having a safe space at Alexandria was bound to have different effects on different people. I think baking and being friendly helped center her. I was glad she initiated the kiss with Tobin. They make a good couple. She deserves that after the hell with Dead Ed. 

 

However, Carol's outrage at Maggie being involved in the fight is projection, imo. I don't see the problem with Maggie being there and the decision to be there is between her and Glenn. 

 

I think Abraham did break up with Rosita harshly so that she will resent him. I don't know if he will go to Sacha though. Hell, he might not make back alive.

 

Tara and Denise are sweet together. I was glad that Denise stayed behind because they will need her.

 

As for Gabriel, I never hated him. He was a weak man who did stupid things. He wouldn't be the first. I didn't see him as much different than Eugene. Now he is actually useful in a fight unlike Eugene so that is something. I think people are too quick to rush to dislike new characters. I am always open to seeing how characters develop even when they do things that I don't like.

 

I have to say that I didn't notice the weed. I will have to do a re-watch. If some of them were high, it would explain why they were in such deep sleep.

Edited March 7, 2016 by SimoneS

[Sofinn]

I have to watch this show (and many others) online without subtitles because my country is so behind on shows, so I miss some of the dialogue on the way. Did Carol say to Maggie "you should be someone else" As in Maggie should be a mom or what..?

Also I wish Norman Reedus would speak a bit clearer. Oh well. Did Daryl shower?!

I never liked Rosita, so the whole break up was boring. Loved Eugenes awkward cookie talk though. And his shirt.

And I agree with others, what the hell Maggie, just go home!

[Pixiebomb]

Was I drinking too much- or did I actually see Carol hand out cookies to other red shirt Alexandrian children?

[Save Yourself]

I have to watch this show (and many others) online without subtitles because my country is so behind on shows, so I miss some of the dialogue on the way. Did Carol say to Maggie "you should be someone else" As in Maggie should be a mom or what..?

Also I wish Norman Reedus would speak a bit clearer. Oh well. Did Daryl shower?!

I never liked Rosita, so the whole break up was boring. Loved Eugenes awkward cookie talk though. And his shirt.

And I agree with others, what the hell Maggie, just go home!

Yes she said 'you should be someone else'. I took it to mean what you did, that she should be a mum and I also thought it was the desire on Carol's part for Maggie to remain 'good', to not become the ruthless killer that Carol herself has metamorphosed into.

Reedus talks like he has marbles in his mouth, it's progressively gotten worse! Daryl looked cleaner than usual but if he did shower I'm totally pissed off because by this stage that deserves an entire episode of its own, 'The Day the Group Dunked Daryl'.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Save Yourself

[kj4ever]

If Maggie was like 7 months pregnant I could see her not being there.  She is totally physically capable right now so why not?  Rick was right on that one, it was her choice.  It wasn't like the forced a prego woman out there.

 

Die Ginger-Man-From-Hell Die

 

I don't care what they do with FPP, I will never like him.

 

Is it just me or did you need the biggest hand ever to wave away the fact that none of Rick's peeps got offed during that raid?

 

Ok so Carol + Rosita talk....I'm confused about the whole "besides we couldn't tell because they'd find out what Denise did"

 

What did Denise do?  At first I thought she meant because the wolf got Denise, but I don't see how that would make it any worse than Morgan harboring the murdering bastard.

[phoenix780]

That was one of my favorites. They set up enough of our people to die that it was exciting, and I like that our group is trying something new though I don't think I agree with their actions. I mean, the saviors and Neegan are clearly bullies, and a couple at least seem to enjoy the violence, but in the end The Hilltop people had mostly safe decent lives when it's clear Neegans group could have just slaughtered them. Maybe as they slept.

So, if Neegan leaves useful people alive, our group could have worked out a merge. They don't have food or medicine to trade, they have a capacity for and skill with violence. Neegan may have seen value there.

On another note, I liked that it looked like Carol made a cookie for Sam. It'll suck if they kill her.

[forum4idiots]

god damn it.  i knew that opening scene was a set up for carol...........i will cry a lot "when" they kill carol as the season finale.......glenn, not so much.

 

to the producers...when you kill off carol, i will never, ever, ever, ever forgive u all, lol. 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

"i thought you were the last woman on earth....you're not"........wow, talk about insult.

"why are dingleberries brown?  cause they're shit"......omfg, gota luv abraham.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited March 7, 2016 by lovebug1975

[Save Yourself]

If Maggie was like 7 months pregnant I could see her not being there.  She is totally physically capable right now so why not?  Rick was right on that one, it was her choice.  It wasn't like the forced a prego woman out there.

 

 

It's not that she can't defend herself, everyone knows she can and if she wasn't pregnant then she absolutely should be there, she's a lethal weapon. But the fact is that she needs to (and the group need to) protect her unborn child and yes, I understand that this is protecting the child in the long term but if she gets killed in the skirmish it's all for naught. The other factor is that a pregnant woman raises the stakes for the entire group because of the natural human instinct to want to protect a pregnant woman - if you think of any awful news report such as when a woman is murdered, raped, etc, the story is made infinitely worse and the outcry is louder when it is a pregnant woman. So now we have Carol not wanting to leave a pregnant Maggie alone (although I think Carol simply didn't want to go to a slaughter) and now pregnant Maggie is hostage which has given the Saviours a lot of power, nobody wants anything to happen to a pregnant woman. This isn't about equal rights in our world, this is about practicality in the TWD world.

[Bad Example]

 Although it was so incredibly violent, the stabbing/killing scenes were a bit heartbreaking for Glenn & Heath.  They (Glenn especially) did what was necessary, but if viewing souls shattering was something tangible, it was easily seen there.  But liked Glenn seeing the 'kill shots' wall.  Lets him know he was killing monsters.

 

 

 

But Glenn killing the guy, so Heath wouldn't have to - broke my heart. But then they showed us the photos of the Saviours victims, and you know what, hopefully Glenn realized this was the right thing to do.

 

While I'm with you about the soul-shattering and it broke my heart, too, I disagree about the kill shots wall. I would have preferred to see it in another context.  I think showing it to somehow ameliorate what Glenn had just done or to make him feel better about it is wimpy storytelling.  What CDB did was horrifying.  Necessary, but horrifying.  And they shouldn't have tried to make it easier for Glenn.  Or to soothe the audience with "See!  It's okay! They really ARE horrible and Glenn is still pure of heart!"

 

That was absolutely infuriating, and I want him to die even more than I did before.  But now that I've simmered down, I think he probably hit her with that before she could say it to him, since in her case it would be true.  Sort of fits with the episode.  Preemptive strike.

 

I hadn't considered the preemptive strike angle, and I think you're right about it being thematically appropriate.  

It *still* pissed me off, not only because Abraham seemed to be saying awful things to somehow justify it to himself, but because DUDE.  TIMING.  I know Rosita is tough, but dealing someone a huge emotional blow when her head needs to be in the game is NOT COOL.  

[Haleth]

Ok, so the attack on the bunker went well but did no one consider that this may not be the Saviors' real base?  Or that there might be more of them elsewhere?  A little surveillance before attacking might have been in order.  Making assumptions will get you (or your friends) dead in the ZA.  Even the Governor knew enough to scout out the prison before striking.

And Morgan, you can just go away now. Your sanctimonous attitude isn't welcome in ASZ. Leave, and go fend for yourself, because Rick and co are doing this to get supplies and feed your useless Zen ass.

Useless?  Maybe he can make cheese.  (They now have a cow!)

This episode basically detailed to me the list of those who are gonna be offed next episode, or by the season finale. Tara, Rosita, Abraham, Maggie, Father Gabriel, Heath, maybe Glenn. Suddenly, they have a scene with focus on them, and they say some meaningful shit. Death sentence, IMO.

And maybe Carol.  Plus there are always rumors about Daryl.  I think Gabriel and Heath are safe for now.  

 

Yes, Maggie is perfectly capable of participating in the raid (well, except for the getting caught thing), but she was risking more than her own life.  If she dies she takes another person with her.  That's why she should have stayed home.

Couldn't the whole starvation problem be lessened slightly if some of the ASZhats would simply learn how to cook acorns? I mean, there seem to be a shitload of them right outside the walls...

 

If that's the case, I'm more than ready for the ZA.  Dang oak tree in the yard dropped 4 wheel barrows full of acorns last fall.  I had every squirrel in the county in my yard.

[kia112]

I'm still stuck on Rick punching the zombie head to mask the nose issue. Thinking back, I believe it was the way Rick studied the head after he punched it to make sure that he achieved the desired look that got me. That Andy Lincoln is a treasure.

[Save Yourself]

While I'm with you about the soul-shattering and it broke my heart, too, I disagree about the kill shots wall. I would have preferred to see it in another context.  I think showing it to somehow ameliorate what Glenn had just done or to make him feel better about it is wimpy storytelling.  What CDB did was horrifying.  Necessary, but horrifying.  And they shouldn't have tried to make it easier for Glenn.  Or to soothe the audience with "See!  It's okay! They really ARE horrible and Glenn is still pure of heart!"

 

 

I agree, I wish the show hadn't done that during this episode. We are meant to feel how horrifying this is and that is what makes it such an interesting story; how morality is being bent and twisted; and in this particular scene, how much Glenn has struggled with the new world's shifting ethics and is now struggling with this new brutal act. 

[Sofinn]

What did Denise do? At first I thought she meant because the wolf got Denise, but I don't see how that would make it any worse than Morgan harboring the murdering bastard.

Didn't Denise give the wolf meds and try to save him from infection? It was because Morgan asked to, but still she was in it too.

[SimoneS]

I agree, I wish the show hadn't done that during this episode. We are meant to feel how horrifying this is and that is what makes it such an interesting story; how morality is being bent and twisted; and in this particular scene, how much Glenn has struggled with the new world's shifting ethics and is now struggling with this new brutal act. 

 

This has always been one of the underlying themes of the show. Back in season two when they were debating what to do with Randall, Rick told Shane that it should not be easy to kill people, it should be a difficult thing to do. It is the one of the primary reasons for Rick's sometimes tenuous mental health. Glenn faced this last night. It will not be easy for him to deal with the emotional fall out of those killings. I think everyone in Rick's group has struggled with this to varying degrees. This is what makes them compelling characters that I can root for. Carol's introspection and guilt over killing last night was the first time in a long time that I felt any type of kinship with her character. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by SimoneS

[bosawks]

I kinda love Tara but I hope the hoodie gets it.........

[Tallulahbaby]

So is Neegan a woman?

[nachomama]

BTW, no one has mentioned the pot that Neegan's group was growing. I forgot all about that. I wonder how they were powering that place? It was pretty big. 

I thought I saw pot too and for a minute I was all "maybe the saviours aint so bad"

 

They definitely should have scouted that out more, they took the traumatized guy's version of "security and layout" for the compound, yes it got them through this mission but it didn't provide the whole picture. 

 

Everybody screams for Daryl to take a shower so we get Carol annoyed by blood on her blouse and picking a fresh cardigan.  

 

I was sorta hoping Rosita might not back up Abe and he might get a little injured but she's a professional. I hate that it might make her and Sasha not friends although solve that problem by killing Abe, hint hint. He was a complete asshat and he doesn't deserve either of them. 

[forum4idiots]

interesting.....

 

this preemptive strike by rick's group, isn't this basically the justification of the terminus group?  either them or us?  get them first before we give them a chance to get us?

 

seems like for every encounter the group has, it rubs off on them a little......proving once again that despite the zombie apocalypse, people are still the most dangerous things on the planet........

 

so with every bad encounter the group has, they become just a little bit twisted.  so will the final end game be that the group will be the so called final villain?  that they will become what they have been fighting all thsi time?

Edited March 7, 2016 by lovebug1975

[mrspidey]

So those polaroids were pictures of Negan's victims, weren't they?

[GodsBeloved]

I have this weird sense of schizophrenia when I watch The Walking Dead, because while I understand intellectually that the show runners/comics postulate that this is a kill-or-be-killed world, I still can't condone premeditated murder. Not even here. I keep going back to Kerry Condon's character in season 4: How far can you go before you can't come back from it? When will there be no difference between our people and people like the Wolves? That's why I still need a Morgan-esque character on the show. Because I think the show itself has become too gung-ho when it comes to killing - skipping the moral implications for great action pieces.

And even though they have Morgan now (I think he's a goner soon), the show still hasn't given Morgan's pov equal weight. It would be great if Rick and his crew murdered some innocent folks here to give credence to Morgan's point but given the history I doubt they will do that.

[Timetoread]

I don't have time to read to the end - gotta work and pay bills and stuff - so sorry if I repeat some posts.  But here are my unpopular thoughts on the episode:

 

I wondered if they would put Tobin with Carol - as I have always liked Tobin and nobody will scream about age appropriateness.  He seems smart enough to eat and dish back out Carol's variety of snark.  And yet his "fear" shows that unlike Ed, he's not a brute.  He marvels at her strength.  I think a little real lovin is just the medicine Carol needs.

 

While I have grown to hate Morgan, I wasn't incensed by his suggestion to try to talk first and gave him credit for the balls to speak his mind when he was clearly the odd man out.  I think a proper jail is appropriate in a civilized society.  I also agree that it maybe something to consider that in this world not all people who do bad things are bad people. Kill if you must, but it shouldn't be plan A.  His suggestion wasn't bad, but the place that it comes from is.  Morgan still seems disturbed and antisocial.

 

That said, I don't fault this plan.  I think the culpability of the Saviors as a group has already been established.  I had no problem killing them in their sleep because once they wake up, they will be killing somebody else.  The biggest fault I had was that they needed more intel.  They don't even know what Negan looks like.  A looming problem is that I do.  I loves me some JDM and I'm going to have a hard time hating him while I am licking the television screen every time they show him.  Bracing myself...

 

I know I'm alone in this, but I do go to church regularly.  I find a lot of this very insulting in terms of how religious people are portrayed.  Father PP included.  Father PP especially.  A priest is just a man and can be driven to any behavior depending on circumstances and his own issues.  I can buy a priest killing someone to save Judith, for instance.  But something about that priest quoting scripture while holding an AR over a man and then coldly pulling the trigger rubbed me the wrong way.

 

Loved that our rag tag group has become Seal Team 6.  Not just in skill but in how they work with and understand each other.  They all truly have each other's back and fully understand all the angles and any one of them can take point at any time - not wait for the leader to direct them.  I loved that Tara sent the Hilltoppers home so that if things went south, there were still some game pieces left on the board.

 

I know everybody is mad at him but I really think Abe decided the cleanest way to get this breakup over and done with - in a situation where nobody will actually leave town and they are still basically family and will live and fight together - was to get Rosita to straight up hate him.  For her to feel that he is just awful, never loved her that and she doesn't want or need such a man.  I do believe he cares deeply for her, though.

 

Badass Rick is and always will be my favorite Rick.  I am scaring myself because when Jesus said that the nose was all wrong, I said aloud, "Break the nose", and then Rick did that.   Yeah, when you see eye to eye with Rick Grimes, it cannot be a good sign. 

[ghoulina]

Carol, oh Carol. you have some issues. And Morgan, you can just go away now. Your sanctimonous attitude isn't welcome in ASZ. Leave, and go fend for yourself, because Rick and co are doing this to get supplies and feed your useless Zen ass.

 

You know, even though I didn't agree with it, I could understand where Morgan was coming from at first. He had gone completely batshit after Duane. And Eastman came along and saved him, in more ways than one. He is really really afraid to go back to that dark place. I get it. And it was fine when he was on his own. But after living with this group for awhile, and seeing what happened to their people at the hands of the Wolves, HOW can he still think this "no killling" shit is going to work? He just really needs to snap out of it or die. 

 

But Glenn killing the guy, so Heath wouldn't have to - broke my heart. But then they showed us the photos of the Saviours victims, and you know what, hopefully Glenn realized this was the right thing to do.

 

That was really the most touching moment of the show. Glenn really went so long without having to kill a human, but now he has had to cross that line. The least he could do was let Heath hold onto that sense of humanity as long as possible. SY really brought it in those scenes. 

 

As for the morality of CDB's actions, they already had one experience with The Saviours and had to kill a bunch of them. Then at the Hilltop they found out they were blackmailing them and holding one of their people captive on the grounds that they bring them Gregory's head. I think they can be pretty confident these are bad guys that can't exactly be reasoned with.

 

Plus, didn't Daryl seem to recognize that bike in the end? I think they were trying to show us that the Saviors are the same group he saw in the woods that day with Diabetic girl?

 

Because some people smoke, and enjoy it.  Even nice ladies.

But Carol didn't start until the smoking lady was killed by the Wolves, right?

 

I believe so. She picked up the pack that her friend was always sneaking. It might be a stress reliever, but it might also make her feel closer to her. I think Carol cared for those suburban moms more than she wanted to admit. 

[Save Yourself]

I know I'm alone in this, but I do go to church regularly.  I find a lot of this very insulting in terms of how religious people are portrayed.  Father PP included.  Father PP especially.  A priest is just a man and can be driven to any behavior depending on circumstances and his own issues.  I can buy a priest killing someone to save Judith, for instance.  But something about that priest quoting scripture while holding an AR over a man and then coldly pulling the trigger rubbed me the wrong way.

 

I thought the scripture before the kill was a (misguided) homage to Pulp Fiction.

[cincivic]

Regarding Glenn and his first human killing- didn't he kill during an attack on the prison by the Governor? Glenn was out there shooting. Did he miss each time or does that not count? Either way, I was touched at how much the attack in the Saviors was effecting Glenn and Heath.

[ghoulina]

I have to say that I didn't notice the weed. I will have to do a re-watch. If some of them were high, it would explain why they were in such deep sleep.

 

I didn't notice it either! And I wasn't even falling asleep this week. But they were cracking all these jokes about it on TTD and I was all, "huh???"

 

Yes she said 'you should be someone else'. I took it to mean what you did, that she should be a mum and I also thought it was the desire on Carol's part for Maggie to remain 'good', to not become the ruthless killer that Carol herself has metamorphosed into.

 

Right. She's thinking back on the guilt she has over her failure to protect Sophia. And what losing her daughter did to her. She wants Maggie to do everything she can to protect HER child. 

 

If Maggie was like 7 months pregnant I could see her not being there.  She is totally physically capable right now so why not?  Rick was right on that one, it was her choice.  It wasn't like the forced a prego woman out there.

 

No, it was Maggie's choice and I doubt anyone could have stopped her. But just because she's now sporting a bump doesn't mean there aren't physical issues to being pregnant at this stage. In the first trimester there's exhaustion, balance issues, nausea - just to name a few. I, personally, don't really have a problem with Maggie going, as long as she and Glenn both agreed. But I think it was insanely stupid to originally plan on her maintaining the perimeter by herself. I feel like it was a plot contrivance and not even remotely something the group would really do. 

Regarding Glenn and his first human killing- didn't he kill during an attack on the prison by the Governor? Glenn was out there shooting. Did he miss each time or does that not count? Either way, I was touched at how much the attack in the Saviors was effecting Glenn and Heath.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Glenn was really fighting then. He had just gotten over the plague and could barely walk steady. I feel like Maggie walked him out, got him on the bust, then realized Beth wasn't there and went to find her and then Glenn ended up getting back off the bus, but passed out somewhere. He was really weak. 

 

I think the time he came closest to killing another human was when they were breaking free from Woodbury, under the original reign of the Guv. He tried to kill that day, to save them, it just didn't happen. 

[phoenix780]

I'm choosing to interpret Glenn and the photos as him seeing where his group could go, if they aren't careful. I'm assuming that the Saviors were normal people once, too, and at least a few have gone over the edge. It can't be coincidence that CDB are acting as saviors, with Jesus no less, while battling a group calling themselves that.

Forgot my other favorite scene- Tara talking about her girlfriend without a priest and Jesus. It was just... Amusing.

[Primetimer]

A pre-emptive attack plan leaves everyone feeling pretty bad.

Read the story

[maystone]

Quote: What was Morgan welding? Anyone know?

I was kind of hoping that he was upgrading from wood to metal. Eh, probably not :)

 

Quote:    Is it really immoral to protect yourself and your loved ones against people who have already shown they WILL kill you? No questions asked? And mess with your head along the way? It almost seems immoral to NOT do what you can to protect yourself.

As Jesus so aptly puts it: This is the next world. And this world calls for moral recalibration; not a wholesale ditching of everything you believed about moral behavior, but a differently crafted code to keep the nascent society alive without gutting everything that makes life worth fighting for.

 

We only got a brief look at Carol's hit list, but I saw the first entry was R. Who was that? I know who D/K and L are, but I don't remember Carol killing a living person before Karen and David?

 

I've liked Tobin from the get-go. All right, he made a dick move when he wanted to abandon Francine to the walkers, but realized he was being a coward, and he confessed it all to Deanna and Reg. I loved his line to Carol: the things you do terrify me. The things you do. He's not saying that she terrifies him, and I really appreciate that distinction - what she does isn't who she is. Unfortunately I don't think Carol read it that way; I think she tacked that on to what Morgan had been hammering at her about not really being a killer and hating it and to stop doing it. Then the whole mom thing got mixed in for good measure. No wonder my poor Carol is a wreck! And no wonder she wants to steer Maggie from traveling down that same road.

 

I loved Rick beating up the walker head. And then the perfect final touch was when he cocked his head admiringly at his handiwork after the Hilltopper called him a prick. That's my boy :)

Edited March 7, 2016 by maystone

[Broken Ox]

I was surprised nobody was hit from friendly fire in that bunker. And I think Morgan would be more comfortable living with the Hilltop folk. Maybe he should just mosey over there.

 

So is Neegan a woman?

I just assumed when the woman's voice came over the radio that it was Neegan, but reading here I guess not. Edited March 7, 2016 by Broken Ox

[Dobian]

I'm getting the feeling that place they raided was just some forward outpost, that the main compound where Negan actually is located is huge and has a hundred or more people.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Dobian

[cambridgeguy]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Glenn was really fighting then. He had just gotten over the plague and could barely walk steady. I feel like Maggie walked him out, got him on the bust, then realized Beth wasn't there and went to find her and then Glenn ended up getting back off the bus, but passed out somewhere. He was really weak.

 

I think the time he came closest to killing another human was when they were breaking free from Woodbury, under the original reign of the Guv. He tried to kill that day, to save them, it just didn't happen.

There's also a huge difference between killing in active self defense (like when he was shooting through the door) versus executing a sleeping man.  I can't believe he would have split up from Maggie, though.  Either they both watch the perimeter or they both go in.  Swap Carol for Glenn and the raid would have been just as effective, if not more so.

[chlban]

So is Neegan a woman?

No, but personally I think that would be an awesome twist. Especially some cute, perky type like Alicia Witt. Phsyco Barbie.

[shanndee]

I'm a little surprised that some people think Carol and Tobin came out of left field. They showed an attraction (on Tobin's part) in one of their first scenes together. Remember Tobin offering to "teach" Carol how to use a gun...at the time it aired my husband said, "look out Daryl, you have competition!" He has been shown in the background in scenes with Carol as well, almost like he just wanted to be around her.

 

I doubt she was interested at the time...but now that she has some hope for a more stable life in the ASZ, she is open to a relationship with a man who is actually a decent guy. She may not feel that she deserves a decent guy, but she wants one now that she is really starting to feel the burden of the weight of the guilt she carries. Maybe being around that kindness will help her get back to her own...

 

I doubt it will matter though. TPTB are projecting her death in an alarming way. I will be truly pissed to see a strong, middle aged, female character removed from a major role in a TV series. There is so little representation of this demographic. I rea;;y. really hope this is just a red herring move. :( 

[nodorothyparker]

this preemptive strike by rick's group, isn't this basically the justification of the terminus group?  either them or us?  get them first before we give them a chance to get us?

 

seems like for every encounter the group has, it rubs off on them a little......proving once again that despite the zombie apocalypse, people are still the most dangerous things on the planet........

 

so with every bad encounter the group has, they become just a little bit twisted.  so will the final end game be that the group will be the so called final villain?  that they will become what they have been fighting all thsi time?

 

This is a really interesting point that could very easily get lost in just how awful the Saviors appear to be.  Ultimately with the road experience Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham had with them and then the Hilltoppers' accounts, they do feel pretty justified that they're making the right call with a premeditated preemtive strike.  And it feels fairly clear that their choices are to hit first or wait to be rolled up on and they know which one they'd prefer.  But you're also right in that the Termites felt pretty justified in what they were doing too.  They also started out thinking they were protecting themselves from being victimized ever again.

 

The show has become one long sliding scale experiment of just how many lines are you willing to cross if you want to live.  They've come a verrry long way from early seasons Rick arguing with Shane about how "we" don't kill the living.

Edited March 7, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

We only got a brief look at Carol's hit list, but I saw the first entry was R. Who was that? I know who D/K and L are, but I don't remember Carol killing a living person before Karen and David?

 

Lizzie and Mika's dad - Ryan - who was bit in the neck and couldn't be saved. 

[ghoulina]

I was surprised nobody was hit from friendly fire in that bunker.

 

No shit. I was certain doors were going to open and we'd see a dead CDB member laying on the floor. 

 

I'm a little surprised that some people think Carol and Tobin came out of left field. They showed an attraction (on Tobin's part) in one of their first scenes together. Remember Tobin offering to "teach" Carol how to use a gun...at the time it aired my husband said, "look out Daryl, you have competition!" He has been shown in the background in scenes with Carol as well, almost like he just wanted to be around her.

 

I do remember that, and I don't think it came totally out of left field. But they haven't given us much Tobin at all this season, so it was kind of like - "Oh, he's still around". Also, I'm not speaking for myself or even the posters here, but there were a lot of people expecting Carol to eventually end up with Daryl. So I think that might be why they weren't expecting this development. 

[AngelaHunter]

What I saw on Carol's list was "Terminus Candlewoman". I too assume the number 18 refers to how many people she's killed.

 

I think the time (Glenn) came closest to killing another human was when they were breaking free from Woodbury, under the original reign of the Guv.

 

Glenn said last night that he was "lucky." Someone on Reddit took the time to outline just how amazingly, ridiculously lucky he really is:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/499z6q/tv_spoilers_theory_glenn_is_a_cat/

 

I wondered if Abe said such horrible things to Rosita so that she would hate him rather than be sad ie. anger over grief.

 

I think he did that because he's, well, an asshole.

[GreyBunny]

I'm getting the feeling that place they raided was just some forward outpost, that the main compound where Negan actually is located is huge and has a hundred or more people.

I'm getting that feeling too. It's really stupid they didn't do any real surveillance, especially with a cop, two military people, and Aaron in their ranks who should know better. Aaron followed CDB around for something like two weeks before he approached him, these Saviors needed more intel than half an afternoon.

Edited March 7, 2016 by GreyBunny

[nodorothyparker]

I think they've knocked off enough two-bit assholes by now that they assume that's all they're dealing with again.  They've become so damn near invincible that it's making them cocky, and thus not as careful or thorough as they should be.  The scenes from last week when Rick was assuring the Hilltoppers they don't have a problem with this sort of thing felt like they were setting that up pretty clearly.

[Boofish]

"Why are you still wearing that" said the man who wore his Sheriff uniform for the first 6 months of the apocalypse 

[econ07]

So question:  Did Alexandria get 50% of Hilltop's stock at that moment or 50% of what they produce ongoing?  If they have the same deal as Degan got (50% ongoing), then what is the gain?  Don't they just have a different mob protecting them for 50% ... albeit a kinder and gentler mob.

[GreyBunny]

I'm glad Glenn finally killed someone. Glenn The Pureheart was getting on my nerves, especially since he's been involved in other stuff that is worse than killing some bad dude. "I'm happy to sign off on killing an entire group of people before knowing if any of them could be victims or prisoners, but doing the actual knife-sticking is what bothers me." BARF!

He looked like a nervous teenager having sex for the first time, fumbling around worried he might prematurely ejaculate.

[Save Yourself]

   Is it really immoral to protect yourself and your loved ones against people who have already shown they WILL kill you? No questions asked? And mess with your head along the way?

    It almost seems immoral to NOT do what you can to protect yourself.

As Jesus so aptly puts it: This is the next world. And this world calls for moral recalibration; not a wholesale ditching of everything you believed about moral behavior, but a differently crafted code to keep the nascent society alive without gutting everything that makes life worth fighting for.

We only got a brief look at Carol's hit list, but I saw the first entry was R. Who was that? I know who D/K and L are, but I don't remember Carol killing a living person before Karen and David?

I've liked Tobin from the get-go. All right, he made a dick move when he wanted to abandon Francine to the walkers, but realized he was being a coward, and he confessed it all to Deanna and Reg. I loved his line to Carol: the things you do terrify me. The things you do. He's not saying that she terrifies him, and I really appreciate that distinction - what she does isn't who she is. Unfortunately I don't think Carol read it that way; I think she tacked that on to what Morgan had been hammering at her about not really being a killer and hating it and to stop doing it. Then the whole mom thing got mixed in for good measure. No wonder my poor Carol is a wreck! And no wonder she wants to steer Maggie from traveling down that same road.

I loved Rick beating up the walker head. And then the perfect final touch was when he cocked his head admiringly at his handiwork after the Hilltopper called him a prick. That's my boy :)

I was wondering if you were trying to quote someone further up the thread with the 'is it really immoral to kill others who want to kill you bit'. It's the exact few sentences from another post so I thought you were trying reply to the quote but ATM it just looks like a post without the quotation box so it's a bit confusing.

[ghoulina]

I'm getting that feeling too. It's really stupid they didn't do any real surveillance, especially with a cop, two military people, and Aaron in their ranks who should know better. Aaron followed CDB around for something like two weeks before he approached him, these Saviors needed more intel than half an afternoon.

 

Agreed. It went down way too fast. They should have spent a few weeks monitoring the place and finding out who comes and goes, and where they go to. That's what the Guv would do. He was watching CDB for awhile, figuring out the logistics and who was in charge, etc. Okay, he still lost in the end. But this was done way too hastily. And then they didn't even fully clear the building, as evidenced by the guy escaping on the bike. 

 

"Why are you still wearing that" said the man who wore his Sheriff uniform for the first 6 months of the apocalypse.

 

Haha, touche. But I do think a Sheriff uniform makes a lot more sense in this situation than priestly garments. I did like his comeback about being harder to spot, though. 

[ACW]

Polaroid instant film from the 80's is still good after all these years!  

Instant film for Polaroid cameras is still made.  As are the cameras, or at least replicas.

[Ohwell]

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now.  I can see that he's doing what he feels needs to be done, but it makes me like him even less than last season.  He is the Governor now.    

[RustbeltWriter]

At first I wasn't on aboard with our group turning into the kind of people that would kill first, instead of talking but then I thought about the Governor and Terminus and all the people they've lost and I could see how Rick would make a decision like this. The Saviors are bullies and thieves, plain and simple. They survive off the hard work of others and don't contribute. If society is going to rise again, these kind of people can't be allowed a foothold in the world. Hilltop and Alexandria can coexist and trade but plunderers and bandits can't be tolerated.

 

I'm totally alright with Morgan having his say at the meeting. This would be a very boring show without opposing viewpoints and Rick could easily slip into being an ass like the Governor. He's good to have around.

 

I'm not sure I like how the show is progressing, though. It seems like we always have to have a band of thugs and sadists to drive the action now. There are a multitude of dangers our survivors have to face like sickness, cleanliness, the dead, sustaining their food supplies, rebuilding society and figuring out how to educate the next generation so they don't waste time learning things that have already been discovered. If the show is going to devolve into Rick constantly facing off against psychopaths then it's just violence porn.

Edited March 7, 2016 by RustbeltWriter

[Ocean Chick]

So am I the only one who hates the idea of Tobin and Carol?  She finally gets a love interest, and he has all the stunning good looks and vibrant personality of boiled white rice.  And he's STILL a weenie, and admits it.  "I can't do what you do".  Twirp.  Aaron and Heath can man up to go protect their community, and Heath as NEVER killed a person before.  But Weenie Man can't be asked?  He's the type of person that if walkers were to come back, he'd toss Carol in front of himself so that they'd eat her and not him.  He's a weenie.

 

And I think Maggie shouldn't be there at this point.  She has every right to risk her own life.  But she's responsible for another life now as well.  And Carol was upset because way too many children she's cared about have died.  She'd like to see at least one survive, besides Judith.  What if Maggie gets hit with a bought of nausea and doesn't notice walkers or bad guys sneaking up on her or the group?  And I've seen my own sister-in-laws fall asleep mid-sentence during their first trimester.  So what if Maggie also falls asleep and doesn't keep watch on the perimeter?  Maggie wants to count coup when she really doesn't need to.  She's already earned her badass moniker.

[Boofish]

I said last season that Rick had become the Governor, and I feel that even more now.  I can see that he's doing what he feels needs to be done, but it makes me like him even less than last season.  He is the Governor now.    

I don't agree with this at all. I believe at the end of the day Rick still has some compassion and empathy. The Governor got where he did by killing and taking things that did not belong to him. Rick got where he did by taking things back that had been taken from him. Rick only comes for those that send for him. The Governor actively sought out victims whereas Rick attacked only after they took Glen and Maggie and to save Andrea. I will say the "kill 'em all" gave me chills but he was acting on intel from the Hilltop. Negan's group tried to kill 3 of his people and asked for someone's head in exchange for a prisoner. The time for a nice long talk has long since passed.

[DearEvette]

This is a really interesting point that could very easily get lost in just how awful the Saviors appear to be.  Ultimately with the road experience Daryl, Sasha, and Abraham had with them and then the Hilltoppers' accounts, they do feel pretty justified that they're making the right call with a premeditated preemtive strike.  And it feels fairly clear that their choices are to hit first or wait to be rolled up on and they know which one they'd prefer.  But you're also right in that the Termites felt pretty justified in what they were doing too.  They also started out thinking they were protecting themselves from being victimized ever again.

 

The show has become one long sliding scale experiment of just how many lines are you willing to cross if you want to live.  They've come a verrry long way from early seasons Rick arguing with Shane about how "we" don't kill the living.

 

To go a bit further, we know nothing about how The Saviors came to be.  It is an interesting name.  What do they think they are saviors of?  What experiences did they have that made them so seemingly ruthless.  And given the road that they are on, could Rick et. al. be viewed by others in the same way?  Right now they are justifying it as 'getting them before they get us' but that is a slippery slope. 

 

Unpopular opinion, I don't think Morgan's perspective is completely wrong. It just feels naive based on what we are given to work with in this world.  But I would think that if the shoe were on the other foot, they'd feel a bit differently.