S06.E05: Season 6, Episode 5

[roomtorome]

I also think (besides thinking Mary will not act badly with the news) that she is absorbing the reality that she doesn't know Edith the way she thought she did, that her presumptions about her were not all correct, etc and we did still see Mary recently seem (for her) somewhat contrite when noting Sybil had been so kind hearted - It seems Fellowes is setting the stage for some evolution, in a positive way, of Mary - I'm all for that but hope they don't suddenly change her to the extreme; she needs to retain some of her distasteful edge for the show to remain even remotely authentic about human behavior - no one changes fully and I hope they don't do that with her - or, any of them.

[EccentricLily]

The Red Dinner! 

 

Beautiful.

 

(You obviously watch Game of Thrones, too!)

 

 

ETA: GoT remark

Edited February 1, 2016 by beetlebaum

[JudyObscure]

I loved Isobel gossiping about Denker and Spratt. I might be the only person who doesn't hate the Denker-Spratty storyline. At this point I find it such a lark. I keep joking to my husband that one day we're going to find them sharing a post-coital cigarette.

Heh.  They really are soul mates when you think about it.  Both snooty and unpleasant and you know they must gossip together down in that boring basement from dawn to dark.  Plus they're snobs of the first order, wasn't it Spratt who refused to serve Dr. Greyson the first time he came to the dowager house?  Or was that one of her other butlers?

[Mrsjumbo]

Here is an article about the filming of the dinner scene. Interesting stuff. I love peeks behind the scenes.

Yes, the scene with the grandparents and children was adorable. Hugh Bonneville and the little one who plays Sybbie have a great rapport.

[magdalene]

Carson is not turning out a price in the husband sweepstakes.  What an obnoxious fuddy duddy. 

 

If it was me I would be going for nice Bertie, not the glamorous race car driver.  But he seems suited for Mary. He doesn't come across as the type she could bully and walk all over.    When Robert started spewing blood all over the dining table I thought Downton was channeling The Walking Dead.

 

Ding dong, as soon as Mary's wheels started turning about Marigold I started fearing that she is going to use Marigold to hurt Edith as much as she possibly can.

[Mrsjumbo]

Those clips of the dinner scene & with the actors talking about show how very thin Elizabeth McGovern has become. I hadn't noticed that before.

When I see photos of women from the 20's, they seem more rounded & soft than Cora & Mary, who are both so rail-thin.

[izabella]

I really don't get what's going on with Daisy. If it's the general consensus that she simply doesn't want to "share" Mr. Mason with anyone else they didn't manage to convey that very well, despite Mrs. Patmore saying something to that effect. I kind of got the impression there was something else going on with her and couldn't figure out what it was.

 

I feel the same way.  My theory is that Daisy was feeling like everyone was pushing her to move into the cottage with Mr. Mason because he's all alone, but Daisy does NOT want to move into the cottage.  I think she feels like she did when people were pushing her to marry William.  So every time they bring up how alone and lonely Mr. Mason is, Daisy thinks they're pressuring her to do something she doesn't want to do.

[SusanSunflower]

My guess is that Daisy really wanted to bask in "her success"  wrt Mr. Mason and everyone else was moving on and moving in.  

Since children resenting widowed parents remarrying is an accepted "trope",  I think "jealousy" figures also -- she's accustomed to having his full affection and felt threatened by Mason's affection for Andy and the simple friendly conversation with Mrs. Patmore ... Again, Patmore and Mason's scenes really brought out the fine grain in both characters in a very nice way. 

If there were another season, Daisy would be trying to decide whom to poison first ... fearful of losing her inheritance from Mr. M. ... thank god, it's ending. 

 

I did wonder that Andy didn't approach Moseley, Daisy or Mr. Mason about his illiteracy, all of whom suggest some affinity to "teaching" or mentoring. That scene of Andy + any of those characters would have been a welcome. I accept dramatic license and the urgency of Thomas' redemption arch, but I can't see accepting "help" from anyone with such a wicked tongue.... and Moseley seems to have been forgotten.  If they have room for Denker and Spratt... gosh what a waste -- even if the actors are beyond competent. 

 

Spratt has suddenly developed a sense of wicked humor (not a wicked sense of humor) and Denker has such a slatternly (secret alcoholic) vibe that I am reminded of Fellowes painting downstairs as a "nest of vipers" resentments, blackmailing and sabotage in past seasons, now possibly forgotten. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[caligirl50]

Does anyone remember when the Atticus was describing Bertie Pelham at the dinner table at Brancaster?  He said "Poor Mr. Pelham.  We all feel a bit sorry for him." I knew then that was to be Edith's next love interest.

[marceline]

How ridiculous is it that Baxter's ex Mr. Coyle has managed to suck up story for two seasons without ever showing his face? Here's this knave who supposedly managed to turn Baxter into Bella Swan and ruined countless lives and after all this they just decided, "Meh." He's gotten at least as must talk as Dead!Mr.Green. Seriously what was the point of any of it? There are so many other things they could've done with Baxter.

 

The thing with Denker made no sense. Have we ever seen any previous indication that she's that devoted to Violet? When did she turn into the DA version of a One Direction fan? The was she jumped on Clarkson, he was like, "Bitch why you be tripping??!!" I feel like there's this Sarah Bunting stick (Dear Lord, how did I never realize until now that PTV has someone named Sarah (D.) Bunting?!) that the women of this show pass to each other and I'm pretty sure Daisy sleeps with it under her pillow.

 

I have to admit I loved Robert's blood soaked declaration of love for Cora. It's not like they're a political marriage. They truly love each other and I'm glad that we got to see that again.

[Kristen]

That, uh, dinner scene was completely overly dramatic. Obviously, they were leading up to something, but at that moment, I figured he'd collapse or toss his cookies just out of frame, surely nothing as graphic as projectile blood vomit...which scared the ever-living shit out of me. And I'm not easy to scare.

[jschoolgirl]

What did the pre-show warning say? My station did not air that.

[albaniantv]

Promised myself not to carp about petty annoyances (Denker, Daisy and a certain peevish butler) if Fellowes wrapped up all the trial/police stuff early this season and he has. 

 

For putting up with all that passing around and village melodrama, Marigold deserves two parents and I am hoping she gets them. If that happens, it's ok with me if Mary, Mrs. Patton, Tom, Thomas, Mr. Mason and Mosely are all left hanging. We know they will find their way since Fellows endowed them with sufficient smarts.

 

Agree that it's odd Isobel pays no attention to Matthew's boy, her only grandchild. Seems when you are the work wife of the Dowager Countess, that's all you get.

[txhorns79]

The thing with Denker made no sense. Have we ever seen any previous indication that she's that devoted to Violet? When did she turn into the DA version of a One Direction fan? The was she jumped on Clarkson, he was like, "Bitch why you be tripping??!!"

 

I think the real issue is why is the show spending so much time on a Denker storyline?  But yeah, I have no idea why she was acting like such a nut job with Dr. Clarkson.  It isn't like we've seen her sitting in her room making "Denker and Violet 4Ever" hearts.  And in what world did she think yelling at Clarkson in the street was going to end well? 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Can't we at least get a pic of Coyle?  Who would it be?  Pitt?  Clooney?  Or more like Russell Crowe . . . er, now?

 

Man, Robert & the blood squirting made me think the TV turned on UFC fighting by mistake.  Ew.

 

Eek, no, Fellowes, I get you seem to want to hook everyone up in pairs like Noah's arc, but please, by all that is holy, resist getting Spratt & Denker together.  The sight of that would burn holes in my head.  Just curious -- anyone else thinks Spratt looks like Buddy Hackett?  Hmmmm.

 

Sorry, I'm not down with Barrow's kindness bit.  Notice it's only to Andy -- um, the only young hot guy there.  And if Andy was 50 & fat, would Barrow be so kind & eager to be just his friend?  Me thinks not.  Barrow's only offering to teach him to read so he can be near the young (sorta) hot guy.  Real generous there, Barrow.

 

Daisy is all over the place, isn't she?  She's consistent in that she always annoys me.  She threw tantrums to get Mason the Drewe farm & now she doesn't wanna know from him?  Typical Daisy.

 

Poor Drewes.  They got a raw deal.

 

So what the heck is going on with Branson?  He's now Mary's sexless BFF?  He got chubby & Fellowes turned him into Rhoda?

 

What's wrong with Bertie?  If he's going for Edith, something has gotta be wrong with him.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Eek, no, Fellowes, I get you seem to want to hook everyone up in pairs like Noah's arc, but please, by all that is holy, resist getting Spratt & Denker together.  The sight of that would burn holes in my head.  Just curious -- anyone else thinks Spratt looks like Buddy Hackett?  Hmmmm.

 

That's it!  I could not put my finger on who he reminded me of, but yes, Buddy Hackett.

 

 

Sorry, I'm not down with Barrow's kindness bit.  Notice it's only to Andy -- um, the only young hot guy there.  And if Andy was 50 & fat, would Barrow be so kind & eager to be just his friend?  Me thinks not.  Barrow's only offering to teach him to read so he can be near the young (sorta) hot guy.  Real generous there, Barrow.

 

I agree that it doesn't hurt that Andy is not 50 and fat, but I don't think that every gay man is unable to control himself and just be friends.  Plus, we saw him forge a friendship with Jimmy, after actually taking a beating for him, and do assorted other good deeds -- recently being quite thoughtful with the old bankrupt man he interviewed with.  And he gives horsey rides to the kids.  He remarked in this episode he must be going soft in his old age.  So I'm buying it, sap that I can be.  He better not make me eat my words.

[txhorns79]

Sorry, I'm not down with Barrow's kindness bit.  Notice it's only to Andy -- um, the only young hot guy there.  And if Andy was 50 & fat, would Barrow be so kind & eager to be just his friend?  Me thinks not.  Barrow's only offering to teach him to read so he can be near the young (sorta) hot guy.  Real generous there, Barrow.

 

In fairness to Barrow, there's really a pretty limited selection of people to hang out with, and every other male servant is coupled up.  So while I agree it doesn't hurt that Andy is young and attractive, it's not like there is much choice.   

[fishcakes]

Notice it's only to Andy -- um, the only young hot guy there.

 

Do people find Andy hot? I think he looks like a young Mr. Bean.

[jumper sage]

I'm not sure if Tom and Edith have had "the conversation" rather than her passively not-denying, but I may be forgetting her confirming his suspicions.

Tom and Edith did have the talk.  He told her he knew and in his world there were many Marigolds.

[NoThyme]

In the last season why is there so much emphasis on Sprat and Denker. They have always been behind the scenes and that is where their story should have stayed.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Do people find Andy hot? I think he looks like a young Mr. Bean.

 

I hear you, but I think he's cute -- er, and so does Laura-

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3425866/SEBASTIAN-SHAKESPEARE-Lady-Edith-upstages-screen-sister-real-life-Downton-romance.html

 

And Barrow clearly seems interested & attracted to him.

 

I agree that it doesn't hurt that Andy is not 50 and fat, but I don't think that every gay man is unable to control himself and just be friends.  Plus, we saw him forge a friendship with Jimmy, after actually taking a beating for him, and do assorted other good deeds -- recently being quite thoughtful with the old bankrupt man he interviewed with.  And he gives horsey rides to the kids.  He remarked in this episode he must be going soft in his old age.  So I'm buying it, sap that I can be.  He better not make me eat my words.

 

Well, I'm not talking about all or any other gay men, just Barrow.  Yes, he was able to have a friendship with Jimmy that was platonic & he was a good friend to him.  But would Barrow have been a friend to Jimmy at all if Jimmy wasn't the hot thing he was?  Me doubts it.  Now, as far as why I'm doubting his motives with Andy?  He's still so shitty to Bates & Moseley -- and pretty much everyone else around him, who isn't a young & (somewhat) hot guy.  That's not to say Barrow couldn't have a platonic friendship with Andy,  But Barrow is still a shithead, in spite of him being kind for a moment or 2 to Andy cuz he wants to hang with a (sorta) hot guy.

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

Do people find Andy hot? I think he looks like a young Mr. Bean.

THIS. omg he is soooo a young Mr. Bean. Lol Definately not hot!

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Side Effects Of Downton Abbey's Endless Hospital Merger Storyline Include...
The Dowager C escalates her campaign by inviting Health Minister Neville Chamberlain to dine at Downton. You'll want to push fluids for this one.

[SusanSunflower]

Personally, I can't see Thomas Barrow risking "secret assignations" with yet another young man ... I'd guess "benefit of the doubt" would be shallow if this secret were to be rudely revealed -- Carson, Bates.  I also doubt Andy would risk the rumor mill ... they might keep the illiteracy secret, but furtive secret meetings and guilty looks would give away "something" was going on.... ymmv.  

 

I also think anyone who has seen Thomas' darker side would never entrust him with a secret or want to risk his sharp tongue and imperious manner being his remedial education student. Let's just hope Thomas is a whiz as an teacher reading and writing and that Andy's illiteracy is not the product of extreme dyslexia ... 

Edited February 2, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[MaryHedwig]

Here is an article about the filming of the dinner scene. Interesting stuff. I love peeks behind the scenes.

 

 

I love how they called the Great Ulcer Burst of 1925.

[Black Knight]

That's true in a way, but would it be right from Mary to demand to be her second husband's "great love" when he can never be that to her after Matthew whom she in her turn idealizes after their short marriage? And is it futile even expect to love again in the same way and not to realize that there are many kinds of love?

I agree it would not be right, but this is Mary we're talking about. Such things as rightness or fairness don't really enter into her thinking, especially not when it comes to her ego where men are concerned. I have no doubt that Matthew will always be the great love of her life. I think she's just fine marrying someone she doesn't love as much or in the same way as she did Matthew. But I just cannot see her marrying a man for whom she isn't the great love of his life. Fair or not. Especially not a man whose great love of his life is her sister. It would always bother her because she never wants to be second-best.

 

I was rewatching the scene in which Mary overhears about Marigold, and I noticed that it also seemed to strike her particularly that Edith was the one Violet asked to call her with news of Robert. Violet asked Edith to do it, took her hand and kissed her on the cheek, and completely ignored Mary. I still don't think Mary is angry now or going to be angry, I think she's struck with a realization of how she's actually rather isolated from everyone. Her precious Anna won't be honest with her about Marigold; Violet is favoring Edith; her mother obviously knows about Edith and Marigold; Tom is calling her Queen Mary (even if one feels that he meant it with a positive connotation, there's still something distancing in his choice to refer to her that way, and I believe we were meant to take it that way given the shot we got immediately after of Mary standing all alone in the hall). Mary was deep in thought at the end of this episode, and during her deep thinking she's going to remember the way everyone carried on when Marigold went missing at the fair and realize that her father knew too, all the servants knew or had guessed. She's head of Downton and she didn't know a damn thing.

 

And even though this other thing that she complained about in this episode is of a much smaller scale than the Marigold secret, it's very similar at bottom: In the Yew Tree matter, Mary was most bothered by the way the family made the decision without her that Mr. Mason would get Yew Tree. Cora deliberately took advantage of Mary's absence to get the rest of the family on board, because she didn't think even appeals to Sybil's memory would work on Mary, and Tom is the one who said it would be best to present Mary with a fait accompli, because really, he didn't think appeals (to Sybil, or to William) would work either. It's the same with both these things, the family (and Anna) don't trust Mary to be a decent person (to Mr. Mason, to Edith, to Marigold) and consequently they purposely arrange things without her knowledge and tell her only what they must, when they must. She has Downton Abbey, her son will inherit Downton Abbey, and those are the things she's cared about most, but on a fundamental level she's quite alone. Somehow despite being head of Downton she's out of the inner circle.

[peggy06]

I won't be distracted by some dramatically spilled blood (though well played show)!!! Damn it we got some glorious, glorious outfits today and nobody will talk about them because of that ill-timed ulcer bursting - so I shall do it right here. We had a serious coat extravaganza starting with the one worn by Lady Mary at the racetrack and then the spectacular thing worn by Edith in London and at Downton, Cora's coat wasn't too shabby either. And I adored Isobel's frock for the battle royal. We also had not one but two tiara sightings - the ladies (and gentlemen) over at the Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor will be in raptures. But Lady Edith was the overall winner first with the blue and lime green ensemble worn in the park and then in that heavenly red and gold lame dress. That was awesome. (Plus Lady Mary and Lady Edith are finally allowed to openly wear make-up. Laura Carmichael looked spectacular in the scene in her flat.)

 

*Cough* Right there was some plot too. Glad to see that Downton's pigs were not forgotten. Who would know that in the end they'd provide romance for Mrs Patmore and Daisy AND a redemption arc for Thomas. May they never see the slaughterhouse - heavenly useful creatures that they are!

 

And another tedious crime plot resolved. Although I'm not too keen on yet another one I think I would be fine with Mrs Hughes making sure her pompous husband will never again complain about her cooking.

 

Nothing really new on the Mary/Henry/Tom front except lots of ambiguity (again, well played show). I still don't care about Denker and Spratt or the hospital.

 

And look: Lady Mary is finally catching up on Marigold. I loved Anna's deer-in-headlights reaction when Lady Mary asked her about the servants opinion about the girl. (It more or less confirmed that the downstairs folks are one step ahead of her ladyship.) Carson reminding Baxter and Anna to make sure Lady Edith would be looked after since she had no maid of her own was glorious. After years of speculation on message boards whether she has a maid or not this was the best moment to clear that up!

I am with you on the fabulous costumes, although my favorite has to be Mary's coat at the racetrack. She wore it stunningly well, like a runway model. Edith did, indeed, look beautiful in the scene in her flat. It's hard to believe the show convincingly portrayed her as the dowdy sister in the first couple of seasons. She has such gorgeous coloring.

 

This was an episode of answering questions. Not only about Edith not having a maid, but about Andy's stand-offishness with Thomas. It is somewhat sentimental to give Thomas this nice-guy storyline, but I can go with that given that it's the wrap-up season. It looks like everyone else is getting a happy ending.

 

I enjoyed Mary and Henry this week - and Tom's words of wisdom to them were amusing. I know people are going to say Mary's an awful snob because of what she said about not "marrying down." But I think she gave an understandable reason - she didn't want to be grander than her husband. It would have been a common point of view then, and actually has been pretty common for much of the 20th century. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be grander than my partner either. I'd want to feel on an equal footing.

 

Speaking of couples, is Mrs. Hughes-Carson having regrets yet? I highly doubt the show is going to end with them splitting up, but she's going to have to put him in his place right quick. I fully expect her to do it in inimitable Hughes fashion, the iron fist in the velvet glove. Carson is just being a pig.

 

I think we all foresaw Robert's illness, but it was much more dramatic than I expected. Glad they seem to have decided to spare him.

 

Although she asked Anna, I think Mary has figured out about Marigold. She seems stunned as much by being kept in the dark as by the knowledge itself. Maybe even a little ashamed of her attitude toward Edith?

Edited February 2, 2016 by peggy06

[howiveaddict]

As a nurse. I have seen several bleedings like Robert's.  Looked realistic to me.   Two observations.  First, I remember a documentary about Highclere and showing the care that is given to the antique table cloth.  Of course, not the one they use but still. Second, Poor Robert being wheeled out by stretcher, and no one bothered to wipe the blood off of his mouth. I am sure there was plenty time to do that while waiting on the ambulance.   Also, he is lying on his back and will surely aspirate if he vomits again.  

'

[j5cochran]

I think it's also indicative of just how many times that Hugh Bonneville & Elizabeth McGovern have worked together.  I think Robert/Cora is the third husband/wife pairing they've played. IMDb used to allow for joint projects but I can't figure out if it does anymore.

 

The two of them played married couples in the 2003 TV movie Thursday the 12th and in the short 2008 television series Freezing.

 

I found this using the Search facility on IMDB.  It works for me if I access the full Internet version.  I can't use the mobile version to Search IMDB.

[izabella]

And even though this other thing that she complained about in this episode is of a much smaller scale than the Marigold secret, it's very similar at bottom: In the Yew Tree matter, Mary was most bothered by the way the family made the decision without her that Mr. Mason would get Yew Tree. Cora deliberately took advantage of Mary's absence to get the rest of the family on board, because she didn't think even appeals to Sybil's memory would work on Mary, and Tom is the one who said it would be best to present Mary with a fait accompli, because really, he didn't think appeals (to Sybil, or to William) would work either. It's the same with both these things, the family (and Anna) don't trust Mary to be a decent person (to Mr. Mason, to Edith, to Marigold) and consequently they purposely arrange things without her knowledge and tell her only what they must, when they must. She has Downton Abbey, her son will inherit Downton Abbey, and those are the things she's cared about most, but on a fundamental level she's quite alone. Somehow despite being head of Downton she's out of the inner circle.

 

I hope Mary does do some reflecting if she feels isolated.  If she's alone and out of the inner circle, it's because she put herself there.  She should have been the first to step forward and say that Mr. Mason's son saved Matthew's life, and if it weren't for him, she wouldn't have had Matthew or a son George or Downton, so she would insist they do right by Mr. Mason.

 

If she had done that, she wouldn't have been alone.  If she had done that, everyone would have felt about her the way they do about Sybil's stepping up for Gwen.

[peggy06]

Pretty drastic way to break up a party, Robert. Normally I would put on "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald " and start cleaning up if I want my guests to leave.

 

This thread has given me some good chuckles, but your comment takes the prize. I LOLd.

[Black Knight]

I hope Mary does do some reflecting if she feels isolated.  If she's alone and out of the inner circle, it's because she put herself there.  She should have been the first to step forward and say that Mr. Mason's son saved Matthew's life, and if it weren't for him, she wouldn't have had Matthew or a son George or Downton, so she would insist they do right by Mr. Mason.

 

If she had done that, she wouldn't have been alone.  If she had done that, everyone would have felt about her the way they do about Sybil's stepping up for Gwen.

Absolutely. At a certain point, if everyone treats you a certain way, you are the common denominator and the problem is most likely you, not them. Even Tom thinks Mary is someone who needs to be "handled" - that's really not a flattering thing (or one that bodes well for a romance, which is another reason I have trouble seeing Tom/Mary as a couple - he talked about his marriage to Sybil being one of equals, and if you're "handling" your partner, you don't see that as a relationship of equals, you see that as your partner being a juvenile, not an equal). Even Anna won't tell her the truth and she's probably the one Mary has been the nicest to. Even Cora, the acknowledged nice one (the one Sybil took after, the one who is the nicest now that Sybil is dead) who dislikes secrets, has no problem being secretive and underhanded where Mary is concerned because she really thinks Mary is horrid enough that it's necessary. Meanwhile Edith, the once forgotten third-best sister, now sits in the inner circle.

 

But, in fairness to Mary - nobody except Tom knows about what she did for Anna in the previous episode. They would all think better of her if they knew that, but she kept Anna's private issue to herself. I don't think it would have had quite as much impact as if she'd stood up for Mr. Mason on her own, because Anna is Mary's own maid and she's partial (after all, Tom knew about Anna and still said that it would be best to just make Mr. Mason a fait accompli, so he wasn't that impressed) - it's not as easy to imagine Mary doing the same for any other maid in the house, whereas Sybil would gladly help anyone, not just those she liked best. But still, it's something. I'm really hard on Mary, but she certainly isn't all bad. I think her problem is that over the years her family has gotten so used to only seeing her cold, snarky side that they've forgotten that's not all there is to her. Matthew dying has had an effect, since she was better around him and with him gone, she's become even more closed off. Getting control of Downton so young also probably wasn't the best thing for her personality, or for her relationships with others, either. As Tom said, Queen Mary.

 

So I'm very interested to see what she says and does next, not only with Edith, but with all her family. I screamed at the TV when this episode ended with Mary looking into the mirror. I have to wait another week (or is it two? Please tell me the Super Bowl isn't causing PBS to skip airing DA next Sunday) to see what happens there, and it's easily the thing I'm most interested in this season.

 

On a different subject, oh, Carson. I thought it was sweet that he wanted to dine just with his new wife sometimes, but everything about the execution of that was dreadful. STFU about cold plates, and especially don't talk about her that way to Mrs. Patmore. Oy.

[Amethyst]

I think Thomas was hoping for a fresh start with Andy; someone he could befriend who didn't know about all the crap he's pulled over the years.  He has too much bad history with everyone else, and like Baxter says, Thomas sabotages himself every time someone tries to get close to him.  Whether he was attracted to Andy at any point, Thomas has made it clear that he's not attempting anything now and just wants to be friends.  I wouldn't be surprised if he was craving male friendship in general, not necessarily romance.  He probably wants another guy to shoot the shit with.  

 

I noticed that when he was speaking to Anna and Bates, Andy didn't mention any of Thomas' past aggressions, so he may not know about them, or the staff has (kindly) glossed over them.  From his pov, he didn't want to be associated with Thomas because he knew Thomas was gay.  

 

The fact that Thomas knows a potentially damaging secret about Andy and wants to help him with no strings attached is a big deal, imo.  If he really is trying to change and be a better man, this is a start.  The old Thomas would have blackmailed Andy without a second thought.

[Andorra]

Those clips of the dinner scene & with the actors talking about show how very thin Elizabeth McGovern has become. I hadn't noticed that before.

When I see photos of women from the 20's, they seem more rounded & soft than Cora & Mary, who are both so rail-thin.

 

The actresses all look thinner and I think it is to have them aged up a bit since 1912. The men all look chubbier, which I think is for the same reason. It's a subtle way of ageing them.

 

In his latest SAG award interview Allen said about Tom in season 6: "He came back, looking as if he'd eatenhalf of Massachusetts.". Allen looked perfectly thin at the SAG awards, so maybe they wanted him a bit heavier for the show for the above reasons?

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

And even though this other thing that she complained about in this episode is of a much smaller scale than the Marigold secret, it's very similar at bottom: In the Yew Tree matter, Mary was most bothered by the way the family made the decision without her that Mr. Mason would get Yew Tree. Cora deliberately took advantage of Mary's absence to get the rest of the family on board, because she didn't think even appeals to Sybil's memory would work on Mary, and Tom is the one who said it would be best to present Mary with a fait accompli, because really, he didn't think appeals (to Sybil, or to William) would work either. It's the same with both these things, the family (and Anna) don't trust Mary to be a decent person (to Mr. Mason, to Edith, to Marigold) and consequently they purposely arrange things without her knowledge and tell her only what they must, when they must.

 

I think that Mary who had the rightful cause to be hurt, actually took it very well.

She  is, like Matthew once said to Tom, practical. Therefore she knows that she couldn't do anything when Robert and Tom were united. And as I have said elsewhere, when Tom and Mary agree, their suggestions must be accepted by Robert, whereas Robert has sometimes made a decision against them both or even alone and secret. And Mary has always accepted that and even admired her father (f.ex. Robert loaning 50 pounds to Mr Drewe).

 

Considering all that, there was no actual need to leave Mary out. But Fellowes wanted to make a point, and as it was well done, so i don't complain.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

I hope Mary does do some reflecting if she feels isolated.  If she's alone and out of the inner circle, it's because she put herself there.  She should have been the first to step forward and say that Mr. Mason's son saved Matthew's life, and if it weren't for him, she wouldn't have had Matthew or a son George or Downton, so she would insist they do right by Mr. Mason.

 

If she had done that, she wouldn't have been alone.  If she had done that, everyone would have felt about her the way they do about Sybil's stepping up for Gwen.

 

Now I must defend Mary. She will never become the Countess who does charity work but her role is inherited from Matthew.  She must be practical and make decisions on the economical facts. And economically it would have best to take the farm to the estate as was said already when the Drewes got the farm. I am not at all sure that it was wise to give the farm to the old man with no son simply because of gratitude that can shown also otherwise.

 

Matthew and Mary's economical thinking has been necessary because Robert completely lacks it.  But it has been shown that not all Robert's thoughts are values are bad. F. ex. Mary and Tom would have built cheap and ugly houses but Robert saved the environment for the future generations.

 

Now Robert is sided because of illness and Mary reign supreme in Downton, it's time to her to learn how combine economics with other values. Otherwise Downton that George inherits will no doubt be a successful enterprise but its inner core is empty. 

[Andorra]

I think the scene with Tom being able to "handle" Mary merely showed that there's a mutual respect between those two and that they work very well together. It bodes well for the future of Downton that they're equals and that Mary is not the one domineering in that relationship. The scene showed that Mary won't steamroll over Tom. On the other hand Tom accepts her as the mistress of Downton and almost "pledges" his loyalty to her in the "Queen Mary" comment. He is ready to work with her and for her. It also shows though, that she knows she needs him and can depend on him. He won't leave her hanging no matter what. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[txhorns79]

The actresses all look thinner and I think it is to have them aged up a bit since 1912. The men all look chubbier, which I think is for the same reason. It's a subtle way of ageing them.

 

I guess my question is: Is the actresses appearing thinner, or the men (really just Tom and maybe slightly Robert, the other male characters looks the same) appearing heavier a make up/wardrobe trick, or is that how they actually just look? 

[Andorra]

I think it is mostly Make-up. Elizabeth McGovern doesn't look very different than she did in 2010 when the show first aired http://www.lazygirls.info/Elizabeth_Mcgovern/the_graham_norton_show_new_years_eve_edition_2010_recording_16dec2010_8_sgEAw7a. Nor does Michelle Dockery http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/michelle_dockery_2010_10_28.jpg. (I don't know if the picture of MD with Dan Stevens is from 2010, but it is at least older). When you look at their appearance in the show though, they look very different. 

 

Allen Leech looked a bit heavier than he does now, when he made his PR round for "The Imitation Game" last spring, but not as nearly as heavy than he looks at the show. I think the heavy tweet and the Make up is adding to it. Here's picture of him in April (with his parents, btw), when they were filming the episodes we're currently watching: http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/allen-leech-with-parents-david-and-kay-attending-the-downton-abbey-picture-id471683264

 

And here's picture of him at Sunday's SAG award:

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/22nd+Annual+Screen+Actors+Guild+Awards+Arrivals+yv2-NuGUTVtl.jpg

 

He looks much more like S2 "younger Branson" than he did in the show, doesn't he?

Edited February 2, 2016 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

Absolutely. At a certain point, if everyone treats you a certain way, you are the common denominator and the problem is most likely you, not them. Even Tom thinks Mary is someone who needs to be "handled" - that's really not a flattering thing (or one that bodes well for a romance, which is another reason I have trouble seeing Tom/Mary as a couple - he talked about his marriage to Sybil being one of equals, and if you're "handling" your partner, you don't see that as a relationship of equals, you see that as your partner being a juvenile, not an equal).

 

I think that Tom only means that Mary is most of all practical, and therefore she can be made to see reason, especially when it's presented by Tom whom she respects. After all, Tom does not manipulate Mary in any way. 

 

Compare the situation with Swire's money where Mary threatened Matthew that if he didn't take it and use it to save Downton, she wouldn't marry him. Although she changed her mind, she still acted behind his back and opened Swire's letter to Matthew, in short put saving Downton before her relationship with her husband. 

[Roseanna]

I think the scene with Tom being able to "handle" Mary merely showed that there's a mutual respect between those two and that they work very well together. It bodes well for the future of Downton that they're equals and that Mary is not the one domineering in that relationship. The scene showed that Mary won't steamroll over Tom. On the other hand Tom accepts her as the mistress of Downton and almost "pledges" his loyalty to her in the "Queen Mary" comment. He is ready to work with her and for her. It also shows though, that she knows she needs him and can depend on him. He won't leave her hanging no matter what. 

 

I agree that Mary respects and likes Tom -  even so much that she could forgive him that he was not loyal to her when he participated in deciding about giving the farm to Masons without her and against her.

 

Although they work together, they are not equals as seen precisely by the "Queen Mary" scene. Subjects pledge their loyalty to a sovereign, he promises to rule them according to the law. 

 

But a wise leader wants to hear different opinions, and is able to differ opinions from personal likes and dislikes. Mary hasn't yet learned this.  

      

[Roseanna]

I enjoyed Mary and Henry this week - and Tom's words of wisdom to them were amusing. I know people are going to say Mary's an awful snob because of what she said about not "marrying down." But I think she gave an understandable reason - she didn't want to be grander than her husband. It would have been a common point of view then, and actually has been pretty common for much of the 20th century. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't want to be grander than my partner either. I'd want to feel on an equal footing.

 

I think Mary hasn't understood her situation clearly.

 

As a young girl, she could get a position in the world only by marrying a rich and titled man and that was the only "career" possible for her. Therefore it was understandable that she didn't want to give all else for love if Matthew wasn't the heir.

 

But now Mary already has all on her own - save the title. And there aren't many eligible titled and wealthy men - and as we saw with Gillingham, it's by no means sure that she would fall in love with one of them. Also, would the man who has his own great estate be willing to move to Downton?

 

Therefore, Mary's chances  to remarry would be greater if she searches for a man whom she loves and who is willing to live in her father's house.   

[Milburn Stone]

How ridiculous is it that Baxter's ex Mr. Coyle has managed to suck up story for two seasons without ever showing his face? Here's this knave who supposedly managed to turn Baxter into Bella Swan and ruined countless lives and after all this they just decided, "Meh." He's gotten at least as must talk as Dead!Mr.Green. Seriously what was the point of any of it? There are so many other things they could've done with Baxter.

 

Word. The only thing I can figure is that Fellowes is writing this whole show on the fly. That when he hints at Baxter's back story in Episode 3 Season 5 (or whenever it was), he has no idea what that back story actually is and how it's going to play out. It's all shameless improvisation.

 

This whole Downton project after Season 1 has been one-episode-at-a-time for him, with no forethought whatever. Or that's how it sure looks.

[proserpina65]

Good plan, but who is going to run the B&B before Mrs. P retires? I suppose we'll never see these details worked out.

It sounded to me like she was going to rent it to tenants before she retires, not run it as a B&B.

Edited February 2, 2016 by proserpina65

[RedHawk]

It sounded to me like she was going to rent it to tenants before she retires, not run it as a B&B.

That's what I thought as well but others corrected me.

[Stella MD]

 

Mary looked especially bony and more Johnny Depp as trippy Willy Wonka

OMG, so true. I'm never going to be able to un-see this.

[proserpina65]

Edith did, indeed, look beautiful in the scene in her flat. It's hard to believe the show convincingly portrayed her as the dowdy sister in the first couple of seasons. She has such gorgeous coloring.

 

The clothing and hairstyles of the twenties have really suited her.

[Artymouse]

I rewatched this episode last night, and I actually liked the Henry Talbot character a bit more. I still don't feel the chemistry with him and Mary, but he's starting to grow on me.

 

One thing that struck me is how the Dowager Countess lost her cool. She's always been pretty much unflappable, but Denker's behavior, as related by Clarkson's letter, really got her in a tizzy. This whole hospital thing has freaked her out in a big way, and she was argumentative and rude during dinner. Which I would never have expected from Violet in a dinner with an outsider, especially a government minister (though I realize she had a personal connection with him). I think she showed more outright emotion in this episode than in the previous five seasons combined. 

[proserpina65]

That's what I thought as well but others corrected me.

I meant that I thought the B&B part would be after she retired, but I don't have last season to check, so I will fully admit that I could be wrong.

[ShadowFacts]

I think Mary hasn't understood her situation clearly.

 

As a young girl, she could get a position in the world only by marrying a rich and titled man and that was the only "career" possible for her. Therefore it was understandable that she didn't want to give all else for love if Matthew wasn't the heir.

 

But now Mary already has all on her own - save the title. And there aren't many eligible titled and wealthy men - and as we saw with Gillingham, it's by no means sure that she would fall in love with one of them. Also, would the man who has his own great estate be willing to move to Downton?

 

Therefore, Mary's chances  to remarry would be greater if she searches for a man whom she loves and who is willing to live in her father's house.   

 

What I took from the scene was the very end of it with Mary looking to me like Tom had made a point that she needed to seriously consider.  Her declaration about not marrying someone "beneath" her was countered by Tom's explanation that he and Sybil were equals, they had balance.  This may of course be setting up Henry as her next husband, but it may be part of Mary re-evaluating who she is, along with her questioning why she is left out of family secrets, as in the Granny kissing Edith scene, and Anna skirting her Marigold questions.  Being "Queen Mary" has some costs she may not like to pay.