S06.E01: Season 6, Episode 1

[persey]

I'd far rather see naked Mrs. Hughes than naked Carson. Just saying.

[txhorns79]

I think it's entirely plausible that there could be actual organic romance between Hughes and Carson after so many years.

 

I honestly saw the relationship more as Mrs. Hughes seemed to think it might be, i.e. sexy platonic friends.  They may be living as a married couple, but the relationship was mostly non-sexual, and more about companionship.   

[Artymouse]

You make some good points, kassa. I think the spark may have happened when they both started thinking about retirement and discussed investing together. It's one thing to be without a partner when you're working full-time, especially with the long hours and intense responsibility Carson and Hughes each have. It's something else entirely to contemplate retirement from such a busy life and to realize you'll be alone and without the job to keep you busy. 

 

And I agree that long and deep friendship often leads to romantic love. And that friendship has always seemed very strong. I can imagine Carson marrying Hughes; I couldn't imagine him proposing to Mrs. Patmore or any of the other Downton servants. I just hope Mrs. Patmore is the maid of honor at the wedding.

[Ohwell]

I don't mean to further gross out the youngsters who cringe at the thought of "geriatric sex," but in a future episode I would love to see Mrs. Hughes take her hair down and just let it loose.  I think that just that simple act would do wonders for her self esteem and would drive Carson crazy.  That's all we need to see. 

[helenamonster]

Just guessing, but isn't the most likely answer to The Problem of Anna's Wig that the actress playing her has changed her hair and the show is attempting (unsuccessfully) to maintain continuity?  (Btw, I agree it looked fake and severe, a crappy combination.)

 

I think Joanne Froggatt's hair has been blonde since the start of DA, but while I'm pretty sure she's a natural blonde, she is a woman (and actress) in her 30s so it's color-treated and much brighter and healthier-looking than someone of Anna's position and age, in 1925, would have. I think she's been wearing wigs since S1 but in the effort to age Anna faster than JoFro is aging, they might have overcompensated.

 

Echoing the above love for Baxter. When she first came on, as an old friend/acquaintance of Thomas's, I was afraid we were in for an O'Brien redux (or worse, an Edna redux). Her being kind and quiet was a pleasant surprise, and the relationship she developed with Molesley seemed like something Fellowes stumbled onto by accident and had the good sense to run with. This is why I'm glad she, Bates, and Anna were able to bury the hatchet. I'd like them to have some nice scenes together, with Molesley as well.

[izabella]

She's kind of what Anna started out as.

 

Ah, yes, pre-Bates Anna.  Bates is the worst thing that ever happened to Anna, lol. 

[Milburn Stone]

I think she's been wearing wigs since S1 but in the effort to age Anna faster than JoFro is aging, they might have overcompensated.

 

That's a good explanation, but I'm still left wondering why she looks any older than she did at the end of last season. (Given all the elements of the story, which would seem to place the current episode about two to four weeks later than last season's time frame.)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

So one of the things I enjoy in that "let's just go with it, because it makes for wonderfully overblown drama" is how everyone involved pretends that the ruination of Mary's reputation is something that is perpetually in the offing.  Like she didn't nearly have to marry meanie Jorah-Mormont-Newspaper-Dude because pretty much everyone had gotten wind that something untoward had occurred.   

 

Or that maybe people might have taken note that she'd married Matthew after a veritable Victorian circus worth of handwringing and virginal women dying of grief/the Spanish Flu because of Mary's wanton ways and Matthew's wandering lips.   

 

Or that anyone would really give two shits that Mary shacked up with another man for a week.  She's a widow, who has already produced an heir to an estate -- during a time when social change had begun to creep in -- oh and pretty much all the young men of her class were dead from a bad case of the Great Wars and despondency afterward.   

 

It truly charms and amuses me that the show tries to deploy some sort of confusion spell every season and pretend that the biggest thing plaguing the landed gentry are perceptions of people like Mary's purity.  Oh sure, that's what would draw focus.   

 

Blackmailing Schemer in her Face-Framing Hat cracked me up because she'd missed a few "Oh please, girlfriend had to help port a dead body out of her bedroom when she was just out of her teen years, screwing someone who wasn't married either when everyone knew she wasn't a virgin is hardly on the first page of the list of things Mary or the Crawleys fret about."   

 

Between Mary's reputation, Sybill marrying the help and poor Edith getting stranded at the actual altar, mid-wedding-ceremony the Reputation Horse has most certainly left the barn.  After the nag burned that barn to the actual foundation, by the way, Fetching Hat.  She's lucky she got cab fair home, let alone fifty quid.

This entire post has me cackling out loud at work.

[kassygreene]

That's a good explanation, but I'm still left wondering why she looks any older than she did at the end of last season. (Given all the elements of the story, which would seem to place the current episode about two to four weeks later than last season's time frame.)

Apart from being raped, concealing it as much as possible, desperately trying to keep her husband from finding out what and who and taking bloody revenge (and Bates is mild-mannered, but never meek), dealing with the victim shaming that is so freaking alien to our 21rst century culture, AND spending months in prison on suspicion of murder (for a crime she knew she didn't commit but was terribly afraid her husband did), and all of this after the Year Of Bates Imprisonment for murder... having Anna look so much older seems correct to me.

 

Also, our 21rst century expectations include women in their 30s looking or trying to look like their 20s - back when I was in sixth grade, we were watching some film about how life in the 80s would be, including nuclear family (mother, father, son), science fiction applianced house, parents working from home, and when son asked mother how old she was and she said forty, Every Single Kid In The Room Gasped Out Loud, because she looked 25.  We live longer than they did in the 1920s, and our faces (with or without aid) tend to reflect it.

[jnymph]

I'd far rather see naked Mrs. Hughes than naked Carson. Just saying.

I think Jim Carter is kind of cute.  Maybe not "naked" cute, but I find him appealing. :)

He looks great here:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm1963588864/nm0141697?ref_=nmmd_md_pv

 

I don't think they've succeeded in making ANY of the cast look 13-14 years older since Season 1.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Apart from being raped, concealing it as much as possible, desperately trying to keep her husband from finding out what and who and taking bloody revenge (and Bates is mild-mannered, but never meek), dealing with the victim shaming that is so freaking alien to our 21rst century culture, AND spending months in prison on suspicion of murder (for a crime she knew she didn't commit but was terribly afraid her husband did), and all of this after the Year Of Bates Imprisonment for murder... having Anna look so much older seems correct to me.

 

Also, our 21rst century expectations include women in their 30s looking or trying to look like their 20s - back when I was in sixth grade, we were watching some film about how life in the 80s would be, including nuclear family (mother, father, son), science fiction applianced house, parents working from home, and when son asked mother how old she was and she said forty, Every Single Kid In The Room Gasped Out Loud, because she looked 25.  We live longer than they did in the 1920s, and our faces (with or without aid) tend to reflect it.

So she ages twenty years in the two weeks or so that the story line has advanced since the end of the last season? Nobody else aged twenty years in that short gap.

[Andorra]

I thought she looked old last season, too. I don't see much difference this year to be honest.

[lucindabelle]

A minor character I've grown to like a lot (even though she didn't have much to do this episode) is Miss Baxter. She came on and had this mysterious past, so I figured she would get entangled in Thomas' blackmail shenanigans. But she's proven to be much more than a one-note caricature. I think the actress who plays her is very good; she just feels like a calm, no-drama presence despite the sometimes over-the-top plot twists. I hope we get to see more with her and Mr. Molesley this season.

 

I love her and you bring up a good point.

The cast are OUTSTANDING. So many of them have ridiculous scenes and lines to play but they BRING IT. Dame Maggie makes Violet lovable, not merely snarky. She always gives her one-liners with sincerity and a kind of befuddled air. That makes them funny. Think about it. Imagine someone actually snarking that line about the high ground. It's not funny at all. It's the element f surprise that brings it.

 

This is my problem with it exactly. I have no issue with them being older or older people having sex or anything else. It's that this relationship came out of nowhere. I actually really liked their platonic, working relationship; and just because it was platonic I don't think that makes it a less significant relationship at all. I would have much rathered a continued exploration of that relationship. But the romance aspect came out of literally nowhere. It just seems slapdash to me, and the non-organic nature of it makes me uninterested. For example, I think Moseley and Baxter's budding relationship has  been handled well in contrast.

 

Actually, having done the PBS binge, I now see there reall has been a lot of set-up, going back to Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare and Carson's terror. He SANG when he discovered she would live.

And if you look back you can see so many moments where he turns to her for guidance. When someone in the servant's hall insults the guy who jilted Lady Edith, Carson is sharp-- until Hughes says it's fine.

Then he agrees, well maybe just this once.

 

And let's not forget the hand-holding at the end of season 4!

Apart from being raped, concealing it as much as possible, desperately trying to keep her husband from finding out what and who and taking bloody revenge (and Bates is mild-mannered, but never meek), dealing with the victim shaming that is so freaking alien to our 21rst century culture, AND spending months in prison on suspicion of murder (for a crime she knew she didn't commit but was terribly afraid her husband did), and all of this after the Year Of Bates Imprisonment for murder... having Anna look so much older seems correct to me.

 

Also, our 21rst century expectations include women in their 30s looking or trying to look like their 20s - back when I was in sixth grade, we were watching some film about how life in the 80s would be, including nuclear family (mother, father, son), science fiction applianced house, parents working from home, and when son asked mother how old she was and she said forty, Every Single Kid In The Room Gasped Out Loud, because she looked 25.  We live longer than they did in the 1920s, and our faces (with or without aid) tend to reflect it.

 

Very good point. Women today also dye their hair-- I mean Lady Mary will with all of her trips to the salon (at 35, some women are going grey already-- and it does strike me as anachronistic that she seems to think she's a bright young thing at 35!)-- but nice women didn't. Remember how Mrs. Patmore scolded Ivy for wearing rouge? Her first thought was to be alarmed in case she'd been running or had a fever!

 

The woman who plays Mrs. Hughes looks a solid 15 years younger than her show character, because her hair is ginger.

The men don't look all that different.

[JudyObscure]

I now see there really has been a lot of set-up, going back to Mrs. Hughes' cancer scare and Carson's terror. He SANG when he discovered she would live.

That's when I first thought he loved her. I'm looking forward to seeing her face (preferably with hair down) when he tells her (rather than Mrs. Patmore) how beautiful he thinks she is.

I thought Anna's pale and haggard look was just the show making her look as though she had just had a miscarriage.

[Roseanna]

I'm looking forward to seeing her face (preferably with hair down) when he tells her (rather than Mrs. Patmore) how beautiful he thinks she is.

Respectable women didn't have hair down except in bed. Anna had her hair down only in her wedding night.

[Diane M]

Anna's periods were late more than once; that isn't a miscarriage.

[caligirl50]

Julian Fellowes actually acknowledges BELOW STAIRS on the Amazon site. He is quoted.  Maybe it was just helpful when writing for both GP and Downton Abbey but it was not the inspiration for DA as it is marketed.

[Clanstarling]

Anna's periods were late more than once; that isn't a miscarriage.

Miscarriages can seem like late periods if they happen early and you are not aware you are pregnant. I've had two miscarriages of that nature, but were already confirmed pregnancies. Edited January 6, 2016 by clanstarling

[JudyObscure]

Respectable women didn't have hair down except in bed. Anna had her hair down only in her wedding night.

I know. That's when I'm hoping to see her with her hair down and Carson telling her she's beautiful.

Of course they took it down to wash and usually dried it in front of the fire, so Carson could conceivably knock on the door of her sitting room late some evening and catch her that way.

[cattykit]

Julian Fellowes actually acknowledges BELOW STAIRS on the Amazon site. He is quoted.  Maybe it was just helpful when writing for both GP and Downton Abbey but it was not the inspiration for DA as it is marketed.

I think that may probably be the case.  GP and DA show both sides of the staircase so I can see that a book about life downstairs might not have been the sole inspiration, but was likely helpful for JF as a resource when writing GP.

 

I just ordered the book, based solely off the comments here!  Looking forward to reading it.

 

I wince a little bit at some earlier descriptions of the Hughes-Carson relationship as "elderly."  Phyllis Logan is 59.  She's not elderly.  (I'm 58.  I can say that.)  Jim Carter is 67, which only barely scratches the surface of elderly.

[Kohola3]

Jim Carter is 67, which only barely scratches the surface of elderly.

 

Well, in 1926 the life expectancy was only 58 so at that time it was beyond elderly!

[SusanSunflower]

yes, when you're planning your imminent retirement and your grandchildren's children have started grade school .... 

[caligirl50]

I ordered the book too!!!!!

[Former Nun]

I'd far rather see naked Mrs. Hughes than naked Carson. Just saying.

 

 

I'm happy (enough) to see any of them naked, but my scenes would just be "business as usual."  They'd be performing their normal daily routines, just sans clothing.  Slippers, maybe.

[lucindabelle]

I think that may probably be the case. GP and DA show both sides of the staircase so I can see that a book about life downstairs might not have been the sole inspiration, but was likely helpful for JF as a resource when writing GP.

I just ordered the book, based solely off the comments here! Looking forward to reading it.

I wince a little bit at some earlier descriptions of the Hughes-Carson relationship as "elderly." Phyllis Logan is 59. She's not elderly. (I'm 58. I can say that.) Jim Carter is 67, which only barely scratches the surface of elderly.

Well, in 1926 the life expectancy was only 58 so at that time it was beyond elderly!

Hahaha I agree! In real life Logan is very pretty. I have friends in their early 60s who look great. But as mrs Hughes she definitely looks older.

Speaking of age, though, it beggars belief that nobody thinks mary is middle aged at 35. When I was turning 35 I cried all summer long because suddenly I could see 40.

As recently as 1973 an aunt married a dip (they later divorced) just because she wanted to go away with him and was turning 30.... Considered over the hill.

Just saying.

In perspective: mick jagger is in his 70s now. Bernadette Peters is 67.

Oh and ps: life expectancy is done on average. The number of childhood deaths drove it down. If you survived into your 20s you were as likely to live into your 70s then as now.

Many Victorian, not even Edwardian, people lived on into their 90s. So no, 58 was not really elderly. But looking at mrs Hughes it's forgivable to see why people might think she's older. Though clearly younger than Violet!

Yeah in real life Logan and Cora, Elizabeth McGovern, are close in age!

Edited January 7, 2016 by lucindabelle

[Roseanna]

Hahaha I agree! In real life Logan is very pretty. I have friends in their early 60s who look great. But as mrs Hughes she definitely looks older.

Speaking of age, though, it beggars belief that nobody thinks mary is middle aged at 35. When I was turning 35 I cried all summer long because suddenly I could see 40.

As recently as 1973 an aunt married a dip (they later divorced) just because she wanted to go away with him and was turning 30.... Considered over the hill.

Just saying.

In perspective: mick jagger is in his 70s now. Bernadette Peters is 67.

Oh and ps: life expectancy is done on average. The number of childhood deaths drove it down. If you survived into your 20s you were as likely to live into your 70s then as now.

Many Victorian, not even Edwardian, people lived on into their 90s. So no, 58 was not really elderly. But looking at mrs Hughes it's forgivable to see why people might think she's older. Though clearly younger than Violet!

Yeah in real life Logan and Cora, Elizabeth McGovern, are close in age!

It's true that there were older people also formerly, but that doesn't contradict that people in their 50is and 60ies looked older than they do today. Especially those who had done hard corporal work like farmers and workers. That can clearly be seen in the photographs. I don't think that Mr Mason couldn't have get a new farm irl. He simply couldn't be healthy and strong enough to do physical work.

Also, young people used "adult" dresses, not vice versa.

[Wouldofshouldof]

Miscarriages can seem like late periods if they happen early and you are not aware you are pregnant. I've had two miscarriages of that nature, but were already confirmed pregnancies.

This!  20 years ago an arrogant young doctor asked me if I'd ever been pregnant.  I responded, "Not that I'm aware of," with this concept in mind, and he snidely replied, "I would think you would know if you were pregnant."  I explained my thought process, and needless to say it shut him up. 

[crowceilidh]

Yes, Mary's evening dresses are somewhat scandalous for a 35 year old widow at that time.  I hadn't thought of that.

[helenamonster]

Miscarriages can seem like late periods if they happen early and you are not aware you are pregnant. I've had two miscarriages of that nature, but were already confirmed pregnancies.

 

At this point it might just be semantics. Anna could be having what would medically be classified as a miscarriage (an egg was fertilized and for one reason or another it wasn't able to continue to grow into a fetus) but I think there's a difference in the physical effects of having a miscarriage which just seems like a late period, and one that occurs when the mother is a few months along. Anna phrased her concerns along the lines of "A few times I thought I was pregnant, and then..." insinuating that her period had been late a few times and she assumed she was pregnant but then it came so she obviously wasn't. At this point I don't think the medical technicalities really matter. The idea is that the Bateses are having trouble conceiving/staying pregnant and they haz a sadz about it because God forbid this couple be happy for 5 goddamn minutes.

[izabella]

Being Anna, I think her sadz are 1/3 sad because she hasn't conceived but wants a baby herself, 1/3 sad because Bates keeps talking about housefuls of children even though they're having trouble conceiving and he can SEE how sad she is about not being able to give him the kids he wants, and 1/3 afraid Bates is going to murder someone so he can steal her baby, maybe Edith?

 

Bates needs to shut up about dozens of kids for a while and concentrate on getting Anna healthier and with some color in her face.

Edited January 7, 2016 by izabella

[kassa]

Anna phrased her concerns along the lines of "A few times I thought I was pregnant, and then..." insinuating that her period had been late a few times and she assumed she was pregnant but then it came so she obviously wasn't.

 

There are also degrees of late.  There's 10 days late, and there's 6 weeks late.  Yeah, you'd think Bates would notice, but with them racing off to London with Mary/Robert on short notice, running themselves ragged working 15 hour days, you could easily lose track. It's not like she'd be running to the chemist for an EPT.  Everybody had to wait in those days.

 

I got the impression she'd been considerably late each time.  Late enough that she didn't consider them vagaries of her personal cycle.

[blackwing]

I thought she looked old last season, too. I don't see much difference this year to be honest.

In some scenes I thought Anna was practically unrecognisable... she looked so ancient.  I'm not sure if it was supposed to be "the stress" or what.  But then in other scenes, she looked completely normal.  I think she looked old in the scenes with Bates and normal in the scenes where she's doing her regularly duties for Mary.  Could be the light.  Downstairs she looked a lot older.

[Roseanna]

Being Anna, I think her sadz are 1/3 sad because she hasn't conceived but wants a baby herself, 1/3 sad because Bates keeps talking about housefuls of children even though they're having trouble conceiving and he can SEE how sad she is about not being able to give him the kids he wants, and 1/3 afraid Bates is going to murder someone so he can steal her baby, maybe Edith?

 

Bates needs to shut up about dozens of kids for a while and concentrate on getting Anna healthier and with some color in her face.

Bates had no children with his first wife, so he could at least doubted that it was he who couldn't get one.

Or if babies were his first priority, he should have done as the farmers formerly did in my country: marry a bride only after she had became pregnant.

[Greta]

Being Anna, I think her sadz are 1/3 sad because she hasn't conceived but wants a baby herself, 1/3 sad because Bates keeps talking about housefuls of children even though they're having trouble conceiving and he can SEE how sad she is about not being able to give him the kids he wants, and 1/3 afraid Bates is going to murder someone so he can steal her baby, maybe Edith?

 

Bates needs to shut up about dozens of kids for a while and concentrate on getting Anna healthier and with some color in her face.

I think you're woefully underestimating the murder-fear portion:)

[lucindabelle]

It's true that there were older people also formerly, but that doesn't contradict that people in their 50is and 60ies looked older than they do today. Especially those who had done hard corporal work like farmers and workers. That can clearly be seen in the photographs. I don't think that Mr Mason couldn't have get a new farm irl. He simply couldn't be healthy and strong enough to do physical work.

Also, young people used "adult" dresses, not vice versa.

 

Oh yes, for sure, women in that era would look older because they didn't use hair dye and makeup among nice people was just beginning to be a thing.

I'm just pointing out that 58 wasn't elderly, even then.

 

Actually, Mrs. Hughes is only 4 years older than Cora-- the actors-- I think Logan is playing Mrs. Hughes as if she's older than the actress.

 

IOW, Logan and McGovern could have been at college together.

[Former Nun]

This!  20 years ago an arrogant young doctor asked me if I'd ever been pregnant.  I responded, "Not that I'm aware of," with this concept in mind, and he snidely replied, "I would think you would know if you were pregnant."  I explained my thought process, and needless to say it shut him up.

 

I gave up explaining my answer to that question.  I was 5-6 weeks late and we went to a convention in San Diego.  The big dinner party had raw oysters and (maybe) some other raw fish.  I loved it all.  I don't drink alcohol, so when I was extremely sick in the night--cramps, vomiting, etc. My period started.  I assumed I had food poisoning.  The next day several of us women skipped a bus tour.  I later explained that I had food poisoning and the women told me that I was just hung over--that everyone was sick in the night.  I think it was food poisoning and that I had been pregnant.  Doctors don't want to hear it.

[tenativelyyours]

Oh and ps: life expectancy is done on average. The number of childhood deaths drove it down. If you survived into your 20s you were as likely to live into your 70s then as now.

Many Victorian, not even Edwardian, people lived on into their 90s. So no, 58 was not really elderly. But looking at mrs Hughes it's forgivable to see why people might think she's older. Though clearly younger than Violet!

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this.  Long life in the Victorian and even the Edwardian era were still the exceptions overall.   All you had to do was look at the death rate among the upper classes and realize how many hurdles one had to pass even when having the best of food and life.  Excess was just as deadly as a lack. 

 

Quite simply the array of now commonly and successfully treated illness and accidents is mind boggling.  Tetanus was not really addressed until WWII when it was proved the vaccine worked when used on soldiers.  Polio?  It nearly killed FDR who was one of the 1% of his day and had health care that even most in the advanced 'Western' world did not.  Heart disease?  The simple use of an aspirin was incredibly recent when using a generational metric.  Cancer advances in the last forty years have changed radically and increased survival rates.  Smoking has dropped almost two entire generations.  Air pollution, water pollution, food storage and preparation.  The list goes on and on.  The number of things that contributed to deaths of people in their twenties, t hirties and forties has been almost nullified in many cases since the mid-twenties of the previous century.  The infant mortality rate is not the only factor in why the life expectancy rate was so much lower almost a hundred years ago.  It was also because most people died a lot younger even once they were past this "twenties' hurdle you present.

 

And for the masses in the Western world, 58 was old for the time.  Most people still worked like a dog from dawn until dusk and well beyond. Simply putting food on the table was still an effort for most.  Electricity and plumbing was still out of reach for many people.  Adequate heat or cooling depending on the region you live in greatly contributes to good health and life.  Simple illness might not kill you but they took a toll that was long range and cut life shorter than otherwise might. 

Edited January 7, 2016 by tenativelyyours

[Clanstarling]

At this point it might just be semantics. Anna could be having what would medically be classified as a miscarriage (an egg was fertilized and for one reason or another it wasn't able to continue to grow into a fetus) but I think there's a difference in the physical effects of having a miscarriage which just seems like a late period, and one that occurs when the mother is a few months along. Anna phrased her concerns along the lines of "A few times I thought I was pregnant, and then..." insinuating that her period had been late a few times and she assumed she was pregnant but then it came so she obviously wasn't. At this point I don't think the medical technicalities really matter. The idea is that the Bateses are having trouble conceiving/staying pregnant and they haz a sadz about it because God forbid this couple be happy for 5 goddamn minutes.

It's hardly semantics to someone who wants the pregnancy (whether or not it is confirmed). Yes, the physical effects of a later miscarriage are quite different - but the emotional effects are not, speaking as one who has "had what medically could be classified as a miscarriage." Twice. Then two successful pregnancies.

I think the medical technicalities may actually come into play - as there is a difference between being able to get pregnant in the first place (perhaps Bates is unable to provide swimmers) and having a high risk pregnancy.

But I will definitely agree that it is tiresome that show insists the couple can't be happy.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Here is a table of life expectancies in the USA: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html

Looks like a white person who was 60 years old in the early 1920s had another 15 or 16 years ahead of him or her. A white person who was 60 in 2011 had just under 25 years left. The stats for the British population probably aren't too much different.

I agree with the above that Mr. Mason does not seem as if he could farm much longer even if he could find a tenancy. But maybe WWI left a shortage of younger men so he still could find one.

Another thought re the episode: I'm thinking the laborsaving devices (cars so stable workers not needed, refrigerator so less daily marketing needed, telephone so less sending someone off to send a telegram, etc.) helped the remaining staff shoulder more work when people quit without necessarily being replaced.

Edited January 7, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[PRgal]

Re life expectancy:  In some parts of the world at that time, women in their mid-30s were already grandmothers or nearing so.  My great-grandmother married as a teenager, probably some time in the 1890s, but did not have her first child until she was in her late 20s/approaching 30 (I think my great aunt was born around 1909).  She continued having kids until she was in her mid-40s!  Found it interesting her husband didn't bother getting a sister wife (which he did later - there were at least three in total) before she got pregnant for the first time.  I guess not having a nagging mom (my great-grandfather was an orphan ended up being a successful businessman) helped! 

 

Note:  There were a total of eight kids who survived childhood in that family. 

 

ETA:  Said great-grandmother lived to about 96 (died a few years before I was born - 1976, I believe).

Edited January 7, 2016 by PRgal

[ShadowFacts]

I think Fellowes writes the elders pretty well.  Or they just resonate with me more than the younger aristocracy for sure, and the younger servants' ranks are thinning.

 

I want to know what is up with Edith and her newspaper and her London flat.  What about the institutionalized wife, er, widow of Michael?  I don't know a thing about English law now or then, but in the U.S. it is not generally possible to completely disinherit a surviving spouse.  Anyway, it doesn't sit right with me that Edith would have it all, irrespective of what papers she may have signed. 

[Crs97]

I keep hoping that Mrs. Gregson shows up, having escaped from the asylum Mr. Gregson tossed her in to get control of all her property. Of course, Edith would spin it so that she was the true victim of it all.

Another example of bad writing-I have been much more concerned about his wife's treatment than about Edith's dithering.

[Diane M]

Didn't we learn in a previous episode that Mrs. Gregson had died?

[Ripley68]

Question:    their way of life is going away (gee, how do I know that?), and I understand why the aristocrats had to sell (they didn't know how to handle their money or land), but didn't the people buying the estates want to be treated as Toffs? Wasn't that kind of their point with shelling out the dough for the estate? They were buying their way into the gentry?  I don't understand if the estates were being bought, why lifestyle was going away. I do understand people not wanting to enter a life of service, but what other reasons were there?

[Crs97]

Didn't we learn in a previous episode that Mrs. Gregson had died?

I don't think so; if she had died, then he wouldn't have needed to move to Germany for the divorce. Because nothing says I will take you as my wife "in sickness and in health" like changing citizenship so you can divorce your mentally ill current wife. Edited January 8, 2016 by Crs97

[helenamonster]

It's hardly semantics to someone who wants the pregnancy (whether or not it is confirmed). Yes, the physical effects of a later miscarriage are quite different - but the emotional effects are not, speaking as one who has "had what medically could be classified as a miscarriage." Twice. Then two successful pregnancies.

I think the medical technicalities may actually come into play - as there is a difference between being able to get pregnant in the first place (perhaps Bates is unable to provide swimmers) and having a high risk pregnancy.

But I will definitely agree that it is tiresome that show insists the couple can't be happy.

 

Of course, and I didn't mean to be insensitive with my comments by reducing the discussion to semantics, but I was just speaking in terms of the overall story. Unless Fellowes plans to go in-depth as to why Anna cannot conceive and/or carry to term, whether or not she's having miscarriages or late periods is of little importance to the narrative. If he does decide to go that route, it could point to an interesting conflict. If Anna is having miscarriages, the issue is most likely with her health, whereas if she's not conceiving at all, there is a greater chance that the issue is with Bates's health (as others have pointed out many times, he's been married twice with no children). But I think the whole thing is just to provide some angst for Anna and Bates until they finally (no spoilers, just spec) have a baby and are happy forever and ever, amen.

 

I too would like some sort of resolution on what happened to Mrs. Gregson, because it might be the dropped plot point that bugs me the most on this show. Her existence and institutionalization is the reason that Gregson went to Germany, got killed, and left Edith single and pregnant in the first place. Fellowes can't just introduce her as this very crucial plot point and then forget about her when her existence makes things too messy. I mean, he can, but it's annoying. Plus, relatives of Mrs. Gregson's showing up and threatening to sue Edith and expose the Marigold secret would actually be interesting. Even though the less I see of Edith right now, the better.

[Greta]

I will forgive Fellowes a lot if the Crawleys end up with madwoman Gregson living in the attic.

[Roseanna]

I want to know what is up with Edith and her newspaper and her London flat.  What about the institutionalized wife, er, widow of Michael?  I don't know a thing about English law now or then, but in the U.S. it is not generally possible to completely disinherit a surviving spouse.  Anyway, it doesn't sit right with me that Edith would have it all, irrespective of what papers she may have signed.

We weren't told that Edith got all of Gregson's fortune, only his magazine and his flat in London. I think it's safe to assume that Gregson left money to keep his wife well in the institution.

If you own an estate, a business enterprise or a newspaper, you can't leave them to a person who is complete unable to manage them, although he or she is a relative, if you don't want to destroy your life's work.

In the show Fellowes wanted to show the audience that Gregson's intentions were honorable and he sincerely wanted to marry Edith. Now the magazine gives Edith an independent income and a reason to visit London.

[txhorns79]

Because nothing says I will take you as my wife "in sickness and in health" like changing citizenship so you can divorce your mentally ill current wife.

 

I would say the vows are important, but I certainly can imagine it would be very difficult to maintain the marriage when one spouse is institutionalized on a mostly permanent basis (particularly at what appears to be a young age), and would not fault a person who tried to move on with their lives, while still providing care for the institutionalized spouse.   

 

 

Actually, Mrs. Hughes is only 4 years older than Cora-- the actors-- I think Logan is playing Mrs. Hughes as if she's older than the actress.

 

I think that would make sense.  They might be close to the same age, but Mrs. Hughes' life was probably much harder (and aged her a lot more), presuming she had to work her way up from the lower ranks of maids to the position of housekeeper. 

[Roseanna]

I too would like some sort of resolution on what happened to Mrs. Gregson, because it might be the dropped plot point that bugs me the most on this show. Her existence and institutionalization is the reason that Gregson went to Germany, got killed, and left Edith single and pregnant in the first place. Fellowes can't just introduce her as this very crucial plot point and then forget about her when her existence makes things too messy. I mean, he can, but it's annoying. Plus, relatives of Mrs. Gregson's showing up and threatening to sue Edith and expose the Marigold secret would actually be interesting.

But Gregson's wife wasn't really introduced as we haven't seen her at all. There can be now some scenes in London where Edith has now a magazine and flat but the show simply can't have too much minor characters that aren't connected with Downton in any way.

I think just the contrary about the plots: f.ex. Green's "murder" was quite unnecessary. Either Anna should have gone to the police as there was so clear a evidence that she was raped that nobody could deny it and there wouldn't have been a trial. Or the plot would have been how to cope with the rape. Or both. Not that her feelings weren't in the main focus but she was mostly afraid of that her husband would kill the rapist (completely forgetting that she had been sure that he hadn't murdered his wife).

In the same time, the story isn't about Mrs Drewe or Gregson's wife but about Edith's development. Now when she has a magazine - how will she succeed with it? And how will her family react if she does?