S31.E14: Lie, Cheat, And Steal / S31.E15: Live Reunion

[North of Eden]

So there isn't even a pretense of trying to talk to everyone...Probst dismisses it outright...but the half hour he spent fellating Joe could have been used to get a soundbite from everyone...hell the villain of the season Abi very nearly got skipped over.

 

Didn't need to meet Terry's family....I wanted to see Savage's supermodel wife to see if she lived up to the hype.

 

Can't believe Spencer and Tanya couldn't at least get ONE vote each.

 

Next season preview: Don't bring Caleb back unless you bring the Vanessa Williams look alike that he was in love with on an opposing team...that would make an interesting dynamic.

[Sarahsmile416]

The interesting thing that I saw from the reunion (although I guess not that interesting) is that I did not get the sense that Joe relished all of Jeff's slobbering over him. I think Jeff thinks that he will be like Jeff's other man-crush, Savage, and just lap up all of the attention and he definitely did not seem to really want it. Joe responded much better when Jeff asked questions that were not about him...or were cut and dry (as in, about his collapse). Jeff will almost certainly get past his man-crush when he realizes that unlike Culpeper and Savage, Joe's favorite person in life is not himself. Jeff likes people who are cocky because he can get them to answer the way he wants them to answer.

I can definitely see almost all of the second chancers getting a third chance, with the exception of Vytas, Wigglesworth, and possibly Shirin.

So there isn't even a pretense of trying to talk to everyone...Probst dismisses it outright...but the half hour he spent fellating Joe could have been used to get a soundbite from everyone...hell the villain of the season Abi very nearly got skipped over.

Didn't need to meet Terry's family....I wanted to see Savage's supermodel wife to see if she lived up to the hype.

Can't believe Spencer and Tanya couldn't at least get ONE vote each.

Next season preview: Don't bring Caleb back unless you bring the Vanessa Williams look alike that he was in love with on an opposing team...that would make an interesting dynamic.

I liked meeting Terry's family, personally. I liked seeing Danny doing so well and I liked Terry's wife, Trish. That was one of the few parts of the reunion where I truly liked Probst....maybe because for once, Probst was acting like a "real boy" lol Edited December 18, 2015 by Sarahsmile416

[Zuleikha]

He can deny it all he wants, but I saw Jeremy, Spencer and Tasha repeatedly talk about them being the Final Three.  I don't know if Jeremy himself said they were "Final Three", but when Spencer or Tasha said it, he certainly didn't deny it.

Yeah, he actually confirms it in one of his interviews (CarterMatt, I think? But they're all blurring together). He said he, Spencer, and Tasha locked in F3 at the family visit, and that he made Spencer his new Stephen after the Stephen boot. So Kimmi read the situation absolutely correctly, and she was right to make a move. I think Jeremy reacted so strongly because he'd been outplayed (sort of), and in the heat of the moment, couldn't be rational about the fact that he really had turned on Kimmi first.

[LanceM]

Anyone know why Jeff doesn't call Joe by his last name like he does with all his other mancrushes?  If I were Joe I'd be offended. : )

[needschocolate]

One other thing, if Kimmi feels like Spencer bullied her then he bullied her, it's about how she felt not how we decide she should feel based on the very little we were shown of a tribal that probably lasted hours. As for him bullying Jeremy, since Jeremy never made that claim, think it's pretty safe to say based on Jeremy's little wink that he realized he had his second goat there and he'd just let Spencer continue to bury himself.

 

I am confused...When Kimmi told Spencer that she would use him as an example of bullying to her children, I thought she meant the Spencer's tirade to Jeremy at the Final 4 TC.  

 

But, it seems, most posters think Kimmi was saying Spencer bullied her at the final 5 TC.  I don't understand what Spencer did at the final 5 TC that Kimmi would consider him to be bullying her.

[breezy424]

Sorry if this has all been gone over before but after watching Wentworth's Ponderosa, she definitely would have won if she had gotten to final three.  And she deserved it....more than Jeremy.  She really had to play the game.  Those are the players I like.  I may not have liked them all that much in the beginning or even the middle but the players who have to scrape and put it all out to survive will get my vote for the most part.

 

She, Joe and Keith are definitely going to be invited back in the future.  And they'll probably be voted out early unless it's all repeaters because this is how the game works now. 

[Wandering Snark]

I like Jeremy but it wasn't his best moment.

While I agree with you, put a camera in anyone's face 24/7 for over a month they won't always shine; no matter how much that moment may be uncharacteristic of them as a person as a whole... and this seemed to be the exception of Jeremy's behavior, he didn't deal with being hurt/betrayed my Kimmi very well, admittedly. Doesn't make him unworthy of being the winner.

 

As for BMC Caleb, if he takes a liking to someone I could see him bringing back the 'Spy Shack' idea so he could watch them from afar. He's just that creepy about women. But really he should be competitive as he's an outdoorsman kinda guy but will need a guide/mentor to work on his social game.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Wandering Snark

[violet and green]

And he didn't deal with it too badly, either.

 

I mean, people whatever they say are going to be cross that he won and they didn't. I was cross he won, as I was so keen on Spencer winning. I forgot that Jeremy was my day one favorite on his previous season. He's a good guy. He played in a very low key way - so that one outburst (which I saw as quite understandable, as he'd really trusted her and felt fooled and not in a fun way) really stands out.

 

It's not as if he was rolling his eyes manically, and pursing his lips, and tossing his hair and saying 'Bitch, please!' all season.

Edited December 18, 2015 by violet and green

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Didn't need to meet Terry's family....I wanted to see Savage's supermodel wife to see if she lived up to the hype.

Dietz's son's heart problems definitely changed the direction of the show - so I was completely cool with that - also it was classy ( a Survivor rarity for sure) to bring in the doctor and nurse who did the surgery.

 

But I agree we should have been shown this paragon of supermodeldom.

 

.

[willpwr]

Where did I say he wasn't a worthy winner? Or that the moment defined him as a person?

I merely agreed it wasn't his finest moment. He and Wentworth are my favorites of the season. This has been the case since before the season started. It doesn't mean that I'll ignore his bad moments or make excuses for him.

[Bryce Lynch]

And then he skipped along to vote her off... very age appropriate reaction.

I like Jeremy but it wasn't his best moment.

I'm glad he won, though. Finally, one of my picks wins! I'd have preferred my other pick but overall pretty pleased with this season.

One other thing, if Kimmi feels like Spencer bullied her then he bullied her, it's about how she felt not how we decide she should feel based on the very little we were shown of a tribal that probably lasted hours. As for him bullying Jeremy, since Jeremy never made that claim, think it's pretty safe to say based on Jeremy's little wink that he realized he had his second goat there and he'd just let Spencer continue to bury himself.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Just because Kimmi "feels" like Spencer "bullied" it doesn't mean he did.

If Spencer "felt" like Kimmi assaulted him, but she never laid a finger on him, would Spencer's feeling make her guilty of assault? Of course not.

In tbe same way, if a fragile, emotionally unstable person "feels" bullied, when no actual bullying occurred, the other person is not guilty of bullying.

In fact, false accusations of bullying are a form of real bullying.

[Guest]

I am confused...When Kimmi told Spencer that she would use him as an example of bullying to her children, I thought she meant the Spencer's tirade to Jeremy at the Final 4 TC.  

 

But, it seems, most posters think Kimmi was saying Spencer bullied her at the final 5 TC.  I don't understand what Spencer did at the final 5 TC that Kimmi would consider him to be bullying her.

I think Kimmi said Spencer was bullying her before tribal, trying to tell her she can't flip.  I think she's nuts.  The woman spent 5 minutes of her Ponderosa freeing a sand crab from a shred of nylon and apologizing for having eaten crabs.  I know, ahimsa and all, but I just think she's cuckoo.  

[jumper sage]

But, it seems, most posters think Kimmi was saying Spencer bullied her at the final 5 TC.  I don't understand what Spencer did at the final 5 TC that Kimmi would consider him to be bullying her.

I thought that is what she was saying too.  Spencer's tirade blew it for him.  Not pretty to watch.  He was the perfect person to take to the final 3.  When Probst asked him if he knew who he could win against he said yes.  Smart move.

[Magius]

It boggles the mind hearing all the Jeremy support.  He's one of the weakest winners in a long time and basically benefitted from using basic coattail/lay-low strategy, along with bringing socially inept people to the end with him.  Jeremy was never a target, ever.  And he didn't even have to try very hard to make it so.  He was always in the numbers, no matter what the tribe rearrangements were.  Other people were always bigger targets, and it was always other people leading the targeting.  Everyone had it out for Joe.  Kass was after Spencer.  Fishbach was after Joe and Spencer.  Ceira was always seen as a huge strategic threat.

 

Jeremy did little more than "be a nice guy with a family, lay low, and never win challenges."   It doesn't take a great deal of skill to win Survivor when you can do that.  Everybody in that game was orchestrating blindsides left and right...that's why they had the whole "voting bloc" thing going on.  And they were targetting all the threats, physical or strategic.  And Jeremy was none of these things.  Just like Tasha wasn't.  That's why they ran as far as they did.  Hell, Jeremy wouldn't even have been there had Spencer not aggressively insisted on not splitting the vote in the final 6.  The one bit of credit I will give to Jeremy is his ability to find 2 immunity idols.

 

Sadly, Spencer, like most geeks, is a social imbecile.  So his exasperation and frustration at sheer idiocy manifested very aggressively in the last few days.  Unsurprisingly, he was right in both cases (that Kimmi was attempting to get Jeremy out, and that Kelly would have beaten Jeremy in the final 3).  Unfortunately, he came off looking like a conceited ass to a bitter jury who fell hook line and sinker for a sympathy plea.  In the end, I don't fault their choice, given the fact Spencer failed the social game miserably.  But Jeremy was far from a Survivor wizard.  He was merely the most palatable option. 

 

I'm sad Keith didn't go the distance.  Great guy, and an absolute beast in challenges.  He was going toe-to-toe with Joe for the bulk of the season.

[Sarahsmile416]

It boggles the mind hearing all the Jeremy support. He's one of the weakest winners in a long time and basically benefitted from using basic coattail/lay-low strategy, along with bringing socially inept people to the end with him. Jeremy was never a target, ever. And he didn't even have to try very hard to make it so. He was always in the numbers, no matter what the tribe rearrangements were. Other people were always bigger targets, and it was always other people leading the targeting. Everyone had it out for Joe. Kass was after Spencer. Fishbach was after Joe and Spencer. Ceira was always seen as a huge strategic threat.

Jeremy did little more than "be a nice guy with a family, lay low, and never win challenges." It doesn't take a great deal of skill to win Survivor when you can do that. Everybody in that game was orchestrating blindsides left and right...that's why they had the whole "voting bloc" thing going on. And they were targetting all the threats, physical or strategic. And Jeremy was none of these things. Just like Tasha wasn't. That's why they ran as far as they did. Hell, Jeremy wouldn't even have been there had Spencer not aggressively insisted on not splitting the vote in the final 6. The one bit of credit I will give to Jeremy is his ability to find 2 immunity idols.

Sadly, Spencer, like most geeks, is a social imbecile. So his exasperation and frustration at sheer idiocy manifested very aggressively in the last few days. Unsurprisingly, he was right in both cases (that Kimmi was attempting to get Jeremy out, and that Kelly would have beaten Jeremy in the final 3). Unfortunately, he came off looking like a conceited ass to a bitter jury who fell hook line and sinker for a sympathy plea. In the end, I don't fault their choice, given the fact Spencer failed the social game miserably. But Jeremy was far from a Survivor wizard. He was merely the most palatable option.

I'm sad Keith didn't go the distance. Great guy, and an absolute beast in challenges. He was going toe-to-toe with Joe for the bulk of the season.

I don't disagree with this at all though I thought Jeremy should win and would win. I do not think Jeremy played the best game, though I think he played a good game. And sometimes, that's all you need. It's like the argument about whether the "best" team won the World Series or the Super Bowl - they might not have, but they got there when a lot of other teams (players) did not and that says something right there.

Do I think his game ranks up there with some of the best players ever? No, almost definitely not. Though as with the discussion of who the "best player" is, MMV!

[Zuleikha]

Jeremy was never a target, ever.  And he didn't even have to try very hard to make it so.  He was always in the numbers, no matter what the tribe rearrangements were.  Other people were always bigger targets, and it was always other people leading the targeting.

 

Not being targeted and always being in the numbers is a good thing, not a bad thing. We saw on Angkor and new new Ta Keo how easily "the numbers" can go away when the people in them bungle things.

 

Jeremy was identified as a threat to win if he made final tribal council as early as merge (from Kass). It's not an accident that players always perceived someone else as the bigger target. Jeremy's strategy was be aligned to players who would be perceived that way, and he worked to downplay his threat. Sure, Jeremy had some luck, but so did everyone else at the end.

[LadyChatts]

Dietz's son's heart problems definitely changed the direction of the show - so I was completely cool with that - also it was classy ( a Survivor rarity for sure) to bring in the doctor and nurse who did the surgery.

 

But I agree we should have been shown this paragon of supermodeldom.

 

.

 

I agree.  It didn't take long, and I think it made more sense for this than the times Jeff wastes running into the audience to gush over his latest man crushes family or talk to Boston Rob or Rudy or Colby or whoever about absolutely nothing other than to catch up.  However, last season almost the entire cast was virtually ignored, and since Jeff has done the reunions, it has become more and more about a handful of contestants and the moments that Jeff drooled over.  Give it a few more seasons and they'll probably purposely sit the pre-jurors in the audience.

 

The interesting thing that I saw from the reunion (although I guess not that interesting) is that I did not get the sense that Joe relished all of Jeff's slobbering over him. I think Jeff thinks that he will be like Jeff's other man-crush, Savage, and just lap up all of the attention and he definitely did not seem to really want it. Joe responded much better when Jeff asked questions that were not about him...or were cut and dry (as in, about his collapse). Jeff will almost certainly get past his man-crush when he realizes that unlike Culpeper and Savage, Joe's favorite person in life is not himself. Jeff likes people who are cocky because he can get them to answer the way he wants them to answer.

I can definitely see almost all of the second chancers getting a third chance, with the exception of Vytas, Wigglesworth, and possibly Shirin.

 

 

100% agree.  Joe seemed very different last night than he did at the reunion show in May.  Of course, the opportunity to go play Survivor again was right around the corner, and it as all new and fresh for him.  I couldn't tell if it was Survivor let down that his game was over (for now) or if he was over the attention.  I think he appreciates his fans and the experience, but maybe he wants to be seen as more than eye candy.  Or maybe it is the way Jeff intro ed him (even I cringed when Jeff said he was 'delicious').  Of the second chancers, I believe 100% he has the best chance of coming back.  Unfortunately for Joe, I don't know that I ever see him winning, or possibly doing any better than he did this season (unless he has an impressive immunity run or winds up with a RI style cast).  I think he has the ability to be strategic, it's just he hasn't really had a chance to show it.  He seemed to be trying to make deals this season and try to make sure he had numbers on his side, but he made some serious missteps at the merge that cost him.  Now, Jeremy almost did the same thing last night, so it happens.  But there comes a point where people want Joe gone because they know they can't beat him in the end.  So he didn't have people last season wanting to play strategy with him, and once the merge happened, he had almost the same thing happen.  It makes me wonder, had he been able to stay on Bayon and stay with Jeremy, if he had been able to stay with some of the same people the whole time, if that would have helped.  I think Ciera, Abi, Wentworth, Spencer, Keith (even though he'll probably say no), and maybe Kimmi will all get asked back.  I won't rule out Kass, Tasha, or Savage as being asked to return, either.  I don't think any of the pre-mergers will be asked back, except Terry. 

 

Slightly off topic, I was checking out the items they are auctioning off from this season (not that I'd be able to afford any of them). But one item is the merge flag that Joe painted.  Seriously, that is a very impressive work of art when I zoomed in on it.

Edited December 18, 2015 by LadyChatts

[pennben]

It boggles the mind that folks saying that "jeremy wasn't a target ever" means he shouldn't have won, as though that wasn't his plan all along.

[LadyChatts]

The fact that Jeremy was being called out, early on in the merge, as the one calling the shots, as the guy who would win in the end if they didn't get rid of him, and it took until the final 6 to finally get his name written down?  I'd say that was impressive.  I believe Jeremy was doing way more than just playing UTR.  But I guess they thought the extensive footage of Spencer's growth spurt and Stephen crying about the golden boy was better viewing than the guy who would actually end up winning.  

[Oscirus]

Seriously, Jeremy made it the end with one immunity win when everybody  knew  he was a jury favorite. Hell, Kass and Ciera told everybody that they would vote for him if he made it to the end and they still didn't target him. I guess maybe that relies on luck? Maybe the other people forgot how to spell Jeremy's name and were too embarrassed to ask.

 

Strangely enough of the final six, the three girls want to come back, while the boys seem to be over the game.

[himela]

Stephen and Spencer didn't see how much of a threat Jeremy was, how everyone underestimated Jeremy

I'm sorry but I don't think Jeremy showed anywhere in the game he was a threat. He found two idols, that's right. THIS makes him a threat. He never won a challenge for himself other than the last one which, as someone else said, was based on luck more than anything else. Spencer at least made it to the end 1. being the underdog for half of the game and strategizing like hell to remain in the game, 2. without using any idols, this makes him superior than Jeremy, 3. predicting Kimmi's flip, something that Jeremy was sure was not gonna happen, 4. not using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote.

 

Jeremy was never a real threat other than his idols. When you admit yourself you need someone as a shield, this makes you instantly a weak player and a goat. People used to hate goats till this jury, not they rewarded one.

[Nashville]

Did they have a fan favorite, or whatever it's called?

  

The "Fan Favorite" prize, when it was around, was never funded by Burnett or CBS; it was a corporate sponsorship prize (usually sponsored by Sprint, IIRC). When the long-running former corporate sponsor decided it didn't want to do the prize any more and no other sponsor stepped in to pick it up, it went away.

And I really didn't understand why Val being pregnant was such a big secret and why it was such a BIG REVEAL at FTC.

Because (a) revealing the pregnancy at any point prior to FTC would have put a sympathy vote target on his back the size of a small barn, and (b) revealing it at FTC guaranteed maximum emotional reaction with minimum critical analysis. Give the Jury extra time to think and converse on the subject, and some juror might come up with something that would blow the Reveal up in his face - wondering out loud if the Jury might be getting Fairplayed, for example.

I kind of understood voting blocs being different from alliances because of fluidity. An alliance is assumed to be voting together at each and every TC throughout the game (until the point that they have to start voting against each other). The voting blocs were groups of people who voted together in one TC but might not necessarily vote together at the next. There is no solid alliance, where players can count on (as much as you can count on in this game) each other from day to day. People are constantly scrambling to gather a group to get a majority vote going for each TC. That's, at least, how I understood the difference.

IMHO voting blocs aren't evolutionary; they're a reactionary response to Production's direct actions to interfere and/or break up the "normal" alliance-building process - said "direct actions" being the shell game of tribal shuffles Production was playing all season. How can an alliance develop when the alliance members can't count on being together from one vote to the next?

  

How can Savage not be embarrassed about himself? How can someone lack so much self-awareness? I get dizzy trying to figure it out.

Because to the Savages of the world, it's not embarrassing if it gets you what you want.

[Oscirus]

I'm sorry but I don't think Jeremy showed anywhere in the game he was a threat. He found two idols, that's right. THIS makes him a threat.

 

Well that and the fact that he was called out as the head of a major alliance and  also the fact that he was perceived to be a jury threat.

 

He never won a challenge for himself other than the last one which, as someone else said, was based on luck more than anything else

 

What luck was involved in that challenge?  Timing, precision and  dexterity maybe. But not luck.

 

When you admit yourself you need someone as a shield, this makes you instantly a weak player and a goat.

 

The exact opposite is true. A weak player/ goat doesn't need a shield because they're carried along in the game by stronger players because they're perceived to be well, weak.

[RedheadZombie]

I liked watching Stephen on the Ponderosa videos and on the jury.  He did what I expected he would do, and that was shake off the disappointment and just enjoy the rest of the experience.  He was my favorite to watch in the jury.  His reaction when hearing Tasha almost drowned was pretty funny.  And especially his geeked out response to Kelley and Jeremy's idol play - his hands were up to his face and he mumbled - "no votes".  He seemed like a super-fan who had won a ticket for Survivor jury duty.

 

Ultimately, best thing about the conclusion of this season is that its' hopefully the last time I hear the phrase "voting bloc" again!!!!!!  Because no one has yet to explain how that is different from an alliance, or sub-alliance.

 

One of the players had a talking head about it last night.  I want to say it was Ciera, but I truly don't remember.  They said they had all seen each other's game play previously, therefore nobody trusted anybody.  It became trying to pull together enough people to vote out a certain person, with no true expectations of sticking together for the next vote.  Kelley also mentioned feeling like she was flying by the seat of her pants.  Just throwing it in with whomever for a few hours, and how confusing it felt.  I think Jeremy's group was tight, but he and Spencer did split off to vote out Wiggles, and Spencer split off to get out Stephen.  It seemed people would be upset for a few minutes and then move on and work with the person who just temporarily flipped.  No one did it more than Abi, but that didn't stop people for aligning with her for a vote.

 

 Jeremy winning the Immunity Challenge was one of the most beautiful moments I've ever seen on this show!  I felt it all.  I couldn't believe how much my stomach was in knots through the entire 2 hours.  I can't believe how much I care about Jeremy!

 

I really did enjoy that moment.  Some players may have screamed and punched the air, pounded their chest and ripped of their shirt as they strutted around, but Jeremy just knelt down and seemed humble in the moment.  It surprised me.  Not that I expected him to be a jerk, but it really no longer mattered to put up appearances.  He was a lock to get to the final three, didn't need to worry he would be voted out that tribal, and had only one future jury member present to witness his reaction.

 

I thought their blindspot about this was really interesting. I wonder why that was. Is it because Joe is younger, single and wins every challenge and Jeremy is a bit older, a family man and good at challenges, but not amazing at them? Or is it because Joe has that white-bred All-American image?

 

I think most "golden boys" on this show tend to be the young and singe type.  But it could be as simple as the golden boy has always been a white guy.  I think some of the winners are changing the winner's mold.  Neither Natalie, Denise, nor Kim used or needed male meat shields, and didn't need implants and male sleeping partners to move them along in the game.  That's not necessarily a criticism to other female winners, although I believe most of them heavily relied on sexuality to control and get ahead.  That's certainly a valid game strategy, it's simply not one I respect.  Someone speculated up thread that Natalie won because she was the most masculine of the final three, but I think it was because she really got along with guys in a platonic way.  She hustled around camp, hung out with the bros, and I remember a group of female-hating males walking away from camp and saying only Natalie could be trusted to keep the fire going.  I don't think they voted for her because she seemed masculine, I just think it was easier (for them) to overlook the fact that she was a female.

[Magius]

 

The exact opposite is true. A weak player/ goat doesn't need a shield because they're carried along in the game by stronger players because they're perceived to be well, weak.

 

Oddly enough, I see ringleaders carried in Survivor just as often as I see weak players carried.  Boston Rob in Redemption Island.  Coach in South Pacific.  Cochran in Fans vs Favorites.  I've seen plenty of people succeed in Survivor merely because they have a herd of mindless sheep following them who simply choose to ignore them and let them walk unchallenged all the way to the last week of the game, while they're visibly calling the shots the whole way.  None of their play is particularly exceptional -- they just don't have people who are willing to play the game and actually try to take them down (after all, as long as your name isn't on the block, it's really easy to just "go along" with the ringleaders)

[Sarahsmile416]

I agree. It didn't take long, and I think it made more sense for this than the times Jeff wastes running into the audience to gush over his latest man crushes family or talk to Boston Rob or Rudy or Colby or whoever about absolutely nothing other than to catch up. However, last season almost the entire cast was virtually ignored, and since Jeff has done the reunions, it has become more and more about a handful of contestants and the moments that Jeff drooled over. Give it a few more seasons and they'll probably purposely sit the pre-jurors in the audience.

100% agree. Joe seemed very different last night than he did at the reunion show in May. Of course, the opportunity to go play Survivor again was right around the corner, and it as all new and fresh for him. I couldn't tell if it was Survivor let down that his game was over (for now) or if he was over the attention. I think he appreciates his fans and the experience, but maybe he wants to be seen as more than eye candy. Or maybe it is the way Jeff intro ed him (even I cringed when Jeff said he was 'delicious'). Of the second chancers, I believe 100% he has the best chance of coming back. Unfortunately for Joe, I don't know that I ever see him winning, or possibly doing any better than he did this season (unless he has an impressive immunity run or winds up with a RI style cast). I think he has the ability to be strategic, it's just he hasn't really had a chance to show it. He seemed to be trying to make deals this season and try to make sure he had numbers on his side, but he made some serious missteps at the merge that cost him. Now, Jeremy almost did the same thing last night, so it happens. But there comes a point where people want Joe gone because they know they can't beat him in the end. So he didn't have people last season wanting to play strategy with him, and once the merge happened, he had almost the same thing happen. It makes me wonder, had he been able to stay on Bayon and stay with Jeremy, if he had been able to stay with some of the same people the whole time, if that would have helped. I think Ciera, Abi, Wentworth, Spencer, Keith (even though he'll probably say no), and maybe Kimmi will all get asked back. I won't rule out Kass, Tasha, or Savage as being asked to return, either. I don't think any of the pre-mergers will be asked back, except Terry.

Slightly off topic, I was checking out the items they are auctioning off from this season (not that I'd be able to afford any of them). But one item is the merge flag that Joe painted. Seriously, that is a very impressive work of art when I zoomed in on it.

I agree completely regarding Joe. I suspect more it is the fact that he did not enjoy the attention, but honestly, with the exception of the Keith video in Ponderosa, Joe was pretty quiet throughout so maybe a part of it is that he has Survivor-hangover, so to speak. I think it was Malcolm who spoke of how difficult it was to play two seasons in a row. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be for a person like Joe. I think he also put much more of his energy into this year because he so wanted to do better and the way he lost probably wasn't how he envisioned.

So, yes maybe a bit of both because the look on Joe's face, or more accurately his body language, told me he looked very uncomfortable about the kind of attention Jeff was giving him.

[KimberStormer]

I suspect there's an unbridgeable gap between those who think that never being targeted makes you bad at the game, and those who (like me) think it makes you best at the game.  But I'll suggest again that it's easy to miss the unfilmable forest for the photogenic trees (thanks Nashville).  Big moves, crazy blindsides, these are wonderful (and nobody would watch if they didn't happen) but they're not the only way to play well.  It's the Kim Spradlin problem, where being so goddamn good makes it look like you didn't even have to do anything.  Jeremy's game was subtle, and 24/7, just like Kim.  (For the record, I don't think Jeremy is as good as Kim--I don't think she would have missed the Kimmi defection, for the most glaring example.)

 

It's like...Julius Caesar was a brilliant general, winning spectacular battles and stuff.  He got assassinated.  Augustus Caesar wasn't a great general, but was a great politician, and he got the Senate begging him to be emperor, and died peacefully at 75 as the most powerful man on earth, leaving behind a stable, peaceful empire.  (Excuse my superficial grasp of Roman history.)  Jeremy is more like Augustus.  I don't want to disagree with people who prefer a more spectacular game.  I like big showy moves too.  But I do disagree that it's necessarily better to play that way.

 

Sarahsmile416, on 18 Dec 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

So, yes maybe a bit of both because the look on Joe's face, or more accurately his body language, told me he looked very uncomfortable about the kind of attention Jeff was giving him.

 

[willpwr]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Just because Kimmi "feels" like Spencer "bullied" it doesn't mean he did.

If Spencer "felt" like Kimmi assaulted him, but she never laid a finger on him, would Spencer's feeling make her guilty of assault? Of course not.

In tbe same way, if a fragile, emotionally unstable person "feels" bullied, when no actual bullying occurred, the other person is not guilty of bullying.

In fact, false accusations of bullying are a form of real bullying.

False accusations of bullying are a form of real life bullying but someone who is in a position of power being aggressive towards someone that's definitely not in a position of power the way Kimmi was and that was trying to make others vote his way by threatening to go to rocks when he was in absolutely no danger whatsoever is not bullying? I'm sorry, but assault and bullying are not the same thing at all. Bullying has a lot to do with how the person feels and an imbalance of power. I stand by if Kimmy felt bullied by Spencer then she has the right to feel that way.

I think Jeremy was a worthy winner. I think he would have won even if Spencer hadn't basically shown his ass there at the end. Jeremy was a strategist which was shown by the way people would go up to him to discuss strategy. He was respected and trusted which showed a great social game. I still don't think he sandbagged challenges, they just didn't seem in his wheelhouse tbh but he was able to win the one that mattered the most.

[nutty1]

I cannot even imagine how emotional my reactions would be after 30+ days out there in those conditions, so I give them a pass on emotions and reactions, especially near the end. 

I am going to miss this season, It was by far one of my favorites, even though the outcome wasn't the one I hoped for.

It was great seeing Spencer again and I am happy he will walk away with a nice amount of money for a young man. And Keith and Wentworth were such a pleasant surprise for me too!

[Lamb18]

I'm going to post before I read all 200+ entries. First, congratulations to Jeremy!  (Although I was hoping Kelley would pull it off somehow.)  I think I would have liked Jeremy's win more if I hadn't been spoiled on it. For the last few episodes I've been hoping people were safe/voted out more to prove the spoiler list wrong than because I really was for or against that person. Jeremy won it with his final speech about Val and the new baby.

 

Question to Survivor experts: How would they have done the Finale episode if Dietz had not left?  It was already cram-packed as it was. Would they have had another two-hour episode, like the one before Thanksgiving?

 

(Note: I really don't think Survivor altered the types of challenges based on Jeff's or anyone else's favorites. My theory is that each challenge is built for a particular number of people.  There's too much logistics and cost-accounting going on to suddenly switch things around on a whim. Besides, how could you switch to a challenge designed for six people when there are 10 left?  And you can't suddenly invent a new one - there's no way those sets could be invented and built on the fly!)

[Bryce Lynch]

I'm sorry but I don't think Jeremy showed anywhere in the game he was a threat. He found two idols, that's right. THIS makes him a threat. He never won a challenge for himself other than the last one which, as someone else said, was based on luck more than anything else. Spencer at least made it to the end 1. being the underdog for half of the game and strategizing like hell to remain in the game, 2. without using any idols, this makes him superior than Jeremy, 3. predicting Kimmi's flip, something that Jeremy was sure was not gonna happen, 4. not using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote.

Jeremy was never a real threat other than his idols. When you admit yourself you need someone as a shield, this makes you instantly a weak player and a goat. People used to hate goats till this jury, not they rewarded one.

Jeremy was anything but a goat. A goat is someone most or all of the tribe dislike, who is carried to FTC because the player or players who bring them know they will not get many if any votes. Abi and Philip from Boston Rob's winning season are classic examples.

Jeremy seemed to be pretty much universally liked and respected.

He played a great stealth game of making himself seem like less of a threat by keeping "shields" around and by not being overly pushy in strategy meetings. While he was very influential, he did it in a subtle way so that others would be seen ad bigger strategic threats and catch more of the flack for blindsides.

His also hid Val's pregnancy so he wouldn't be seen as a sympathy vote threat before FTC and then revealed it at the perfect time.

His biggest mistake was his big move of playing the idol to save Fishbach as that was completely contrary to his stealth strategy.

[ProfCrash]

 

Holmes: When Jeremy dropped the baby bomb, I was wondering if anyone would think he was pulling some Jonny Fairplay-esque move.

Nale: To me he was pretty convincing. I don’t think you throw something out there to get sympathy votes. Looking at them, Jeremy was going to get my vote whether she was pregnant or not.

Kappenberg: Exactly. Tasha out there…she was another one. You could’ve put anyone next to Tasha and Spencer and they would’ve won. You could put Abi out there and it would’ve been a tough call.

Nale: Yeah.

Kappenberg: Abi had been mentally abused out there. Her feelings were hurt.

Nale: She was a time bomb.

Kappenberg: But she would’ve gotten my vote over Tasha and Spencer. That’s how anti-Tasha and Spencer I am. There were different things you didn’t see, like in the food challenge where she’s eating the balut and she’s pounding her chest and saying, “I’m doing this out of hate! I’m doing this out of hate!” It’s like, “Who the heck are you? What are you doing?” The audience didn’t get to see that. Why are Tasha and Spencer so protected? Even during the loved-one visit, they showed us for a little bit, but it still managed to be about Spencer. Ooo…he’s got a little girlfriend. Oooo…he said, “I love you.” And he didn’t even win the damn reward.

Holmes: Keith, who are you voting for in a Spencer, Abi, Tasha final three?

Nale: That’d be a close call right there. I don’t know…I might have to give it to Spencer. Just because Abi and Tasha…it’d be a close call. Close call. Not Tasha. I look at it like, “Did they really play this game?” Spencer won some challenges. He made it further than me.

http://my.xfinity.com/blogs/tv/2015/12/17/survivor-castaways-keith-and-kimmi-werent-fans-of-spencer-and-tasha/

 

Wow. Tasha and Spencer were edited very kindly. Tasha in particular. Seriously, two people are saying they would have voted for Abi over Tasha. Just wow

[ghoulina]

I liked watching Stephen on the Ponderosa videos and on the jury.  He did what I expected he would do, and that was shake off the disappointment and just enjoy the rest of the experience.  He was my favorite to watch in the jury.  His reaction when hearing Tasha almost drowned was pretty funny.  And especially his geeked out response to Kelley and Jeremy's idol play - his hands were up to his face and he mumbled - "no votes".  He seemed like a super-fan who had won a ticket for Survivor jury duty.

 

Yes, I find Stephen much more palatable as a jury member/fan than as a player. I'm actually watching Tocantins for the first time right now, and I like him so far! But I do think, based on THIS season, Stephen is his own worst enemy. He's smart and clearly passionate about the game, but he overthinks everything. 

 

It seemed people would be upset for a few minutes and then move on and work with the person who just temporarily flipped.  No one did it more than Abi, but that didn't stop people for aligning with her for a vote.

 

This. This is why I can't figure out why the jury seemed so bitter. 

 

I am going to miss this season, It was by far one of my favorites, even though the outcome wasn't the one I hoped for.

 

I so agree. It was simply the caliber of players involved. Even when people I loved lost challenges or were sent home, I was still hooked because everyone came to play! A really great season. 

 

 

Wow. Tasha and Spencer were edited very kindly. Tasha in particular. Seriously, two people are saying they would have voted for Abi over Tasha. Just wow

 

That just don't make no damn sense. LOL. No, seriously. I'm having an even harder time believing someone would vote Abi over Spencer. I've gotten a nasty vibe from Tasha before, so I can see maybe someone voting for Abi over her. But Spencer? As ridiculous as his threat to Jeremy was, I have a hard time believing he was outright nasty around camp. His whole thing this season was trying to stay calm and make lasting relationships with people. And he clearly, IMO, played a better game than Abi. I really want to know why anyone would pick Abi over him. Does no one remember the nasty stuff Abi did? Making fun of Stephen and his diarrhea? Trying to one up Woo and acting like he was trying to garner sympathy by talking quietly about his mother when asked? She ain't no angel.

[ProfCrash]

I don't think Spencer was nasty around camp. I do think that Spencer is someone who is calculating and analytical and approaches everyone in that general fashion. This is a young man who told us that he had to think about how to respond to his girlfriend when she said she loved him.

 

There is nothing wrong with that. I know plenty of folks who are like Spencer, I studied game theory and statistics in graduate school so I am very use to the analytical thinkers who approach all of lifes issues as an elaborate game theoretic equation that they are trying to solve. Unless you know a good number of folks who are like that it is hard to see them as anything other then arrogant and a bit cold. And that is how Spencer came across to Kimmi.

 

I called him Pinocchio because he is trying to figure out how "normal" humans emote. He processes the world very differently and he understands that. It is a strength and a weakness.

[peachmangosteen]

And then he skipped along to vote her off... very age appropriate reaction.

 

Yea really.

 

To me, his whole attitude reeked of entitlement.

 

THIS. And just your whole post is exactly how I feel about Jeremy's reaction to the Kimmi vote.

 

I wanted to see Savage's supermodel wife to see if she lived up to the hype.

 

LMAO!

 

I think Jeremy reacted so strongly because he'd been outplayed (sort of), and in the heat of the moment, couldn't be rational about the fact that he really had turned on Kimmi first.

 

This is what I suspect as well. I think Jeremy was actually mad at himself for being gullible/entitled enough to believe Kimmi would just politely follow him to the end and happily let him win.

 

While I agree with you, put a camera in anyone's face 24/7 for over a month they won't always shine; no matter how much that moment may be uncharacteristic of them as a person as a whole... and this seemed to be the exception of Jeremy's behavior, he didn't deal with being hurt/betrayed my Kimmi very well, admittedly. Doesn't make him unworthy of being the winner.

 

I don't think anyone who's expressed some displeasure at Jeremy's outburst have said he was unworthy of being the winner. The exact opposite actually; it seems like most, including myself, are just fine with Jeremy winning and think he played a good game. 

 

It boggles the mind hearing all the Jeremy support.  He's one of the weakest winners in a long time and basically benefitted from using basic coattail/lay-low strategy, along with bringing socially inept people to the end with him.

 

Sadly when men play this type of game they're not given the same "worthless" treatment that most women who play it get. I wouldn't call Jeremy a coattail rider at all though. I personally think there's very few players who play that game. Jeremy played an UTR game, a very good UTR game. I actually do appreciate UTR games and I think Jeremy played a decent-good one.

Edited December 18, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

I wondered if they edited out Jeremy telling Spencer to chill when he was freaking out.  That was smart of him not to.  But we felt like Jeremy never had any plan to take Kelley.  It would've been stupid.  And why butter up Spencer when he's not going to be a juror?   Let him talk himself right into his grave, which he did.

I was texting with a few friends during this, and they ALL said "Whoa, Spencer's threatening Jeremy??" At least I wasn't the only one seeing Spencer this way during the FTC.

Loved Abi's yellow dress, and the green one she wore at the reunion. PM me for info on where to buy, if interested.

[Guest]

I think Jeremy's game was fairly un-filmable.  And he was lucky to have ding-dongs Kimmi and Tasha in his voting bloc all along, and to some extent Stephen and Spencer, protecting him.  

[Phish]

Does anybody know or is there a link that shows for each jury member their reason why they chose Jeremy?

 

So many people here think Spencer failed miserably and it was no surprise at all that it was a Jeremy shutout.  I didn't see that coming at all.  Some things that people blamed Spencer for, like threatening Jeremy to keep him instead of Kelly at TC, are the same types of things I've seen "winners" do successfully in the past, so Spencers mistakes were never obvious to me.  Anyway, I've always wanted to know why each jury member voted the way they did, especially this time.

[Bryce Lynch]

False accusations of bullying are a form of real life bullying but someone who is in a position of power being aggressive towards someone that's definitely not in a position of power the way Kimmi was and that was trying to make others vote his way by threatening to go to rocks when he was in absolutely no danger whatsoever is not bullying? I'm sorry, but assault and bullying are not the same thing at all. Bullying has a lot to do with how the person feels and an imbalance of power. I stand by if Kimmy felt bullied by Spencer then she has the right to feel that way.

I think Jeremy was a worthy winner. I think he would have won even if Spencer hadn't basically shown his ass there at the end. Jeremy was a strategist which was shown by the way people would go up to him to discuss strategy. He was respected and trusted which showed a great social game. I still don't think he sandbagged challenges, they just didn't seem in his wheelhouse tbh but he was able to win the one that mattered the most.

A threat to go to the rocks is nothing even close to bullying. He was warning her of the consequences of voting for Jeremy instead of Wentworth. He was letting her know that her blindside scheme would not succeed and if she went through with it, she, Tasha and Keith would be drawing rocks.

He was using the rules of the game and the leverage his alliance had to try to get his way, just like Kimmi was doing by trying to blindside Jeremy.

She ignored the warning and ended up voting herself out.

If he had physically threatened her, called her names, or yelled "You better vote with us or else!" that would be bullying.

By your definition of "bullying" nearly every castaway bullies and gets bullied as most at some point are pushed into voting in a way they would prefer not to, to maintain their place in the game.

[himela]

Well that and the fact that he was called out as the head of a major alliance and  also the fact that he was perceived to be a jury threat.

Who called him the head of the major alliance? If Joe was not in his tribe they would not have such many wins. It's the reason also Joe survived until the merge; his tribe never went to tribal council. Jeremy could not win an immunity challenge against Joe, Spencer and Wentworth, so this does not make him a threat or a strong head of the alliance, it makes him weak.

 

What luck was involved in that challenge?  Timing, precision and  dexterity maybe. But not luck.

Everything you said but also luck. It certainly did not require strength, brains or balance, which he lacks.

 

 

The exact opposite is true. A weak player/ goat doesn't need a shield because they're carried along in the game by stronger players because they're perceived to be well, weak.

 

And what did Jeremy do other than EXACTLY THIS? He used Joe as a shield to hide behind him, let him be the threat, let him be targetted, while he was standing pretty. Why does this show weakness for Kimmi (who played a similar game with Jeremy in my opinion AND she had the mind to realize he had to be eliminated) and strength and trategy for Jeremy? Kimmi, Abi, Keith, all so called goats did the same thing as you describe; they got carried along by a stronger player. Well, Jeremy admitted he did the same thing, he said Joe was his shield. Why is Jeremy the mastermind while Kimmi, Abi etc are the stupid, deserveless goats?

[LanceM]

That just don't make no damn sense. LOL. No, seriously. I'm having an even harder time believing someone would vote Abi over Spencer. I've gotten a nasty vibe from Tasha before, so I can see maybe someone voting for Abi over her. But Spencer? As ridiculous as his threat to Jeremy was, I have a hard time believing he was outright nasty around camp. His whole thing this season was trying to stay calm and make lasting relationships with people. And he clearly, IMO, played a better game than Abi. I really want to know why anyone would pick Abi over him. Does no one remember the nasty stuff Abi did? Making fun of Stephen and his diarrhea? Trying to one up Woo and acting like he was trying to garner sympathy by talking quietly about his mother when asked? She ain't no angel.

Kimmi is not saying Abi is an angel. She is saying that she found Spencer and Tasha's attitude and bahviour was more offensive to HER than was Abi's.

[Alapaki]

A threat to go to the rocks is nothing even close to bullying. He was warning her of the consequences of voting for Jeremy instead of Wentworth. He was letting her know that her blindside scheme would not succeed and if she went through with it, she, Tasha and Keith would be drawing rocks.

He was using the rules of the game and the leverage his alliance had to try to get his way, just like Kimmi was doing by trying to blindside Jeremy.

 

 

I think this is just another example of "not a bully, but a dick" behavior from Spencer.

 

My take on the F6 TC (and the lead-up) is that to some extent Jeremy was playing Spencer (and Spencer didn't realize it):

 

Kimmi recognized that she was #4 in their F4 alliance.

 

Spencer realized that Kimmi recognized that, and that she might try to defect and vote out Jeremy (because Spencer won the IC and everyone wanted to sit next to Tasha at FTC).

 

The editing suggested that this was obvious from Kimmi's behavior, and I do think that it actually was.  While I can't recall the specifics, I could swear that Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer did something last week that would've/should've sent that message to Kimmi.

 

Jeremy was too smart to not see it.  So I think his protests to the contrary with Spencer in the hammock were just Jeremy playing Spencer.  Jeremy knew he had a HII to fall back on if he got a bad vibe at TC.  The plan was for he and Spencer to vote Kelly and Tasha and Kimmi to vote Keith.  If they were going to reject the split-vote plan and vote as a bloc, Tasha would be the one to have to switch her vote from Keith to Kelly.  

 

So, from Jeremy's perspective, why rock the boat?  Stick with the vote-split plan and vote for Kelly.  If Kimmi doesn't defect, then Kelly goes on the tie-break re-vote and he can tell Kimmi he didn't backstab her.  If Kimmi does defect, Jeremy could protect himself with the HII, and still wouldn't have back-stabbed Kimmi because he stuck with the split-vote plan.

 

Then Spencer shit the bed at TC with his "well, we're voting together because nyah-nyah-nyah."  What was the point in that?  If Kimmi gives in and does the vote split, you still can't trust her because she voted under duress.  If Kimmi doesn't give in, (Spencer assuming Kelly didn't have a HII), Kelly would've still gone home.  From Spencer's perspective there was no upside to that play.  He fucked up out of pride and arrogance. (i.e. he was a dick).

 

Then, when Kimmi did indeed defect, he was so over-the-top with the "I told you so", that I actually think some of his dickishness rubbed off on Jeremy and that's why Jeremy said what he did to Kimmi.  

 

Finally, after the Kimmi/Tasha tie, he was kind of a dick again with his "Well, Tasha's not going home tonight." cockiness.  Again, it's not what he's saying.  Because he was right.  But it's how and when he was saying it.  Kimmi hadn't done anything remotely "wrong" or out-of-line.  She recognized that she was at the bottom of the pecking order and tried to save herself.  He plan failed, thanks in no part to Spencer, who had no idea that Jeremy had a HII.  And then Spencer acted like he just scored the winning touchdown and fucked the prom queen.

[Skeeter22]

During that final 6 showdown, Kimmi said she didn't want to be a pawn and Spencer responded, "Just vote the way we tell you to!!" He just does not understand how to manage his relationships. Even if Kimmi had been wavering, he basically gave her no choice but to vote with Kelley and Keith at that tribal. It really showed his immaturity. It reminded me of the beginning of the season when Spencer was talking about all the personal growth he'd experienced since he played last time. Cagayan was only two years ago. He's still very young with little life experience. I don't think he was ready to come back.

[SuburbanHangSuite]

Jeremy winning the Immunity Challenge was one of the most beautiful moments I've ever seen on this show!  I felt it all.  I couldn't believe how much my stomach was in knots through the entire 2 hours.  I can't believe how much I care about Jeremy!

 

All of this!  I can't remember ever being so on edge watching this show!  I was losing it when Jeremy kept defending Kimmi so adamantly when Tash and Spence saw right through her.  I was so worried he would be blindsided and go home with an idol in his pocket so I LOVED Spencer just taking matters into his own hands and blowing up Kimmi's "big move."  And I understand that Kimmi may have believed that she needed to make a big move but I think she gets taken to the end regardless of who had final immunity. IMHO, her "big move" cost her a F3 spot.

 

Spencer blew up his own chances with that threat.  I was praying that Jeremy didn't let his manhood make him take Kelley out of spite after that display.  I think the jury REALLY resented Spencer's arrogance on that front.  Like he's so persuasive, they would all just fall in line with HIS wishes.  What a maroon.

 

I laughed when Jeremy scolded Kimmi.  Kimmi knew she was caught--all she could do was cry at that point.  Cry and give Jeremy her vote because she knew he was 100% truthful with her.

 

Loved the jury except for Wiggles dumbass throwback question. Unless she wrote down her # beforehand,  I don't even believe that's how she arrived at her vote.

 

Lotta Joe time at the reunion.  Should've been more Jeremy, less Joe.  And if we were going to have Joe worship, couldn't we have made some room for Woo?  (I think he's as smokin' as Joe, if not hotter.)  But I love Joe's dad having a man-bun too.

 

Great, great season.  Maybe my favorite ever.

[Guest]

Kelly did say the number was "whatever Jeremy picked".  So she was just being obnoxious, in my opinion.

 

IMHO, her "big move" cost her a F3 spot.

 

But without evicting Jeremy, what use would a F3 spot be?  I think she was right to shoot for the win, not runner-up.  

[Eolivet]

I'm sorry but I don't think Jeremy showed anywhere in the game he was a threat. He found two idols, that's right. THIS makes him a threat. He never won a challenge for himself other than the last one which, as someone else said, was based on luck more than anything else. Spencer at least made it to the end 1. being the underdog for half of the game and strategizing like hell to remain in the game, 2. without using any idols, this makes him superior than Jeremy, 3. predicting Kimmi's flip, something that Jeremy was sure was not gonna happen, 4. not using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote.

 

Jeremy was never a real threat other than his idols. When you admit yourself you need someone as a shield, this makes you instantly a weak player and a goat. People used to hate goats till this jury, not they rewarded one.

 

I don't think I could disagree with this post more if I tried. Jeremy was a goat? Jeremy had people who would -- and did -- lay down their (game) life for him, to advance his position in the game. That's not a goat. A goat gets dragged to the end, and nobody dragged Jeremy. I completely agree that he doesn't fit the strategic winner mold, and to that I say: thank goodness. It was such a breath of fresh air not to have a micromanaging strategist win the game, and to have people realize that micromanaging strategist is not the only valid way to play. To me, he was what could only be described as an under-the-radar leader.

 

His presence was such that it convinced Tasha not to go with the all-women (sorry, I refuse to say "all girls" unless it's Survivor Junior -- oh, there's a thought) alliance, that it convinced Spencer after Stephen was gone that he was happy being Jeremy's second-in-command, that it convinced Kimmi until final 5 that she was good with being #4, that it convinced the remaining women plus Keith that even though Jeremy didn't win a single immunity, not to target him until there was no one else left. Heck, his presence was such that he had grown men on the jury (Savage and Stephen, but still) quietly rooting for him and openly cheering for him.

 

He missed the Kimmi betrayal, yes -- but one could argue that had his presence not been what it was, had Spencer and Tasha not believed so strongly in their final 3 together, that they would've kept their mouths shut and just let him get votes and/or go home with an idol in his pocket. And boy, did he find a way to turn that around at final tribal council.

 

It's funny you bring up the lack of challenge wins, because it reminds me that I think Jeremy played more of a Big Brother than Survivor-type game. Big Brother winners often purposely tank challenges so as not to be seen as threats, while quietly building alliances and friendships behind the scenes. For a while, I thought Jeremy had some of Dan's Mist . You know you should vote him out and yet...you don't. And it's not like they weren't given the opportunity (with his lack of challenge wins).

 

People weren't dragging Jeremy to the end because they thought they could beat him. I believe for the most part, they were taking him to the end because he engendered so many people's trust that it felt like voting him out would be akin to hurting themselves and their own game (when it was just the opposite).

 

I don't think Jeremy played a game-changing game or even one that will end up in the annals of Survivor history (other than his final tribal council sweep). But in my opinion, he was not a goat. He was a leader. It's not his fault (and in fact, speaks to his strength) that people just didn't realize that until it was too late.

[Skeeter22]

Jeremy has admitted he didn't want to take Kimmi past F4. Which confirms that Kimmi did the right thing, and was a bigger jury threat than Spencer and Tasha.

[Bryce Lynch]

I think this is just another example of "not a bully, but a dick" behavior from Spencer.

My take on the F6 TC (and the lead-up) is that to some extent Jeremy was playing Spencer (and Spencer didn't realize it):

Kimmi recognized that she was #4 in their F4 alliance.

Spencer realized that Kimmi recognized that, and that she might try to defect and vote out Jeremy (because Spencer won the IC and everyone wanted to sit next to Tasha at FTC).

The editing suggested that this was obvious from Kimmi's behavior, and I do think that it actually was. While I can't recall the specifics, I could swear that Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer did something last week that would've/should've sent that message to Kimmi.

Jeremy was too smart to not see it. So I think his protests to the contrary with Spencer in the hammock were just Jeremy playing Spencer. Jeremy knew he had a HII to fall back on if he got a bad vibe at TC. The plan was for he and Spencer to vote Kelly and Tasha and Kimmi to vote Keith. If they were going to reject the split-vote plan and vote as a bloc, Tasha would be the one to have to switch her vote from Keith to Kelly.

So, from Jeremy's perspective, why rock the boat? Stick with the vote-split plan and vote for Kelly. If Kimmi doesn't defect, then Kelly goes on the tie-break re-vote and he can tell Kimmi he didn't backstab her. If Kimmi does defect, Jeremy could protect himself with the HII, and still wouldn't have back-stabbed Kimmi because he stuck with the split-vote plan.

Then Spencer shit the bed at TC with his "well, we're voting together because nyah-nyah-nyah." What was the point in that? If Kimmi gives in and does the vote split, you still can't trust her because she voted under duress. If Kimmi doesn't give in, (Spencer assuming Kelly didn't have a HII), Kelly would've still gone home. From Spencer's perspective there was no upside to that play. He fucked up out of pride and arrogance. (i.e. he was a dick).

Then, when Kimmi did indeed defect, he was so over-the-top with the "I told you so", that I actually think some of his dickishness rubbed off on Jeremy and that's why Jeremy said what he did to Kimmi.

Finally, after the Kimmi/Tasha tie, he was kind of a dick again with his "Well, Tasha's not going home tonight." cockiness. Again, it's not what he's saying. Because he was right. But it's how and when he was saying it. Kimmi hadn't done anything remotely "wrong" or out-of-line. She recognized that she was at the bottom of the pecking order and tried to save herself. He plan failed, thanks in no part to Spencer, who had no idea that Jeremy had a HII. And then Spencer acted like he just scored the winning touchdown and fucked the prom queen.

He was closer to a "dick" than a bully, but I don't think he was either with Kimmi.

She ham handedly tried to pull off a blindside of the alliance and he called her out and tried to block her.

He was in no way abusive or insulting, he just firmly laid out what was going to happen so she could make a choice.

He was much closer to being both a "dick" and a "bully" with Jeremy.

I think Kimmi suddenly panicking at the thought of possibly #4 of 4 was a bit silly.

If she made it to the Final 4, she could win the last immunity challenge or make the very valid argument that she was less of a threat than any of the other 3. I could easily have seen any 2 of the other 3 joining with her to vote out the other.

[Alapaki]

And I understand that Kimmi may have believed that she needed to make a big move but I think she gets taken to the end regardless of who had final immunity. IMHO, her "big move" cost her a F3 spot.

 

 

Possible.  But Kimmi would have to know that she was highly unlikely to win the F4 IC.  And Tasha was likewise not an IC threat.  

 

So with Jeremy or Spencer most likely to win F4 Immunity, the question for Kimmi is how likely are either of them to vote out the other at F4 TC?  I don't think Jeremy was that worried about Spencer as a FTC threat, so the "disloyalty" risk might've caused Jeremy to lean in favor of keeping Spencer.  It sounds like Spencer had been tainted with the "flipper" label by that point, so to the extent that he realized that he might've felt the need to keep Jeremy to have any chance at FTC.  (I think in a Spencer/Tasha/Kimmi F3 Tasha's odds go way up).

 

Ultimately I don't think Kimmi should've seen herself as a no-brainer for F3 if she'd just stuck with Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer.  

 

*all of this must be tempered by the fact that Kimmi should have realized that she had no chance of winning regardless of any FTC configuration she might've found herself in.

[LanceM]

*all of this must be tempered by the fact that Kimmi should have realized that she had no chance of winning regardless of any FTC configuration she might've found herself in.

Not true at all. Kimmi would have beat Spencer and Tasha in the FTC. She might have been able to beat Keith if he was in there. She would however definitely lose to Jeremy or Kelley.