Kelly File: Duggar Interview Part 2 2015.06.05

[NEGirl]

Question everyone - I was watching CNN Friday night after the interview. I thought I heard one person say the Smuggars were notified by the Springdale Police that the report was being released. JB and J'Chelle of course said they were not notified. Not that I believe anything they have said. Did anyone else catch this? Just wondering....

As for the Duggars doing serious soul searching - that will never happen because they think they did nothing wrong.

Edited June 8, 2015 by NEGirl

[NextIteration]

Question everyone - I was watching CNN Friday night after the interview. I thought I heard one person say the Smuggars were notified by the Springdale Police that the report was being released. 

 

That was noted in the WaPo link above thread as well.  The timing of the request to expunge fully indicates that as well - InTouch posted the "tease" on the 19th of May - that is the date of the request for expungement of the Springdale police record.  InTouch posted it on the 21st, which is also the day the judge signed off on the request.

[b2H]

"Megan Kelly getting very upset at this story being broken by In Touch....I am sorry, but your station was quick to report on this also when it broke. Throw your anger back at yourselves. You are the media also. Your anger over victims maybe not moving forward on reporting a molestation because of "This Story", you are the ones who are bringing these victims on television to cry over this. You did this interview for ratings only, not for healing."

From what I understand, Fox is more upset that THEY weren't the ones to have broken the story. Their request was, apparently, denied when they asked for the report.

[MrsMommy]

I read the in touch thing one of you ladies posted yesterday and one thing really stuck out to me. It said in one part that jana was not touched and a few lines down it said that the oldest duggar that was touched is the one who caught josh and told on him. That would mean that Jill is the one who told in josh right? If that's the case than it makes me wonder, Josh said that she was a tattle tale on the all about jill episode. Could he have been talking about this life changing event?

[humbleopinion]

Who knows what other disgusting, fetid events happened at the hand of Josh?

 

You know MK's team is trying to get more D interviews-they delivered ratings for her.

 

Where is the montage of known personalities supporting the d family?

 

And...crickets  sounds coming from TLC Headquarters.

[jmt111]

I thought minimizing the events was just irresponsible. Shame on them all.

If the girls really wanted to help this world, they could have discussed how to help other victims, including how to talk to your parents, how to get help, dealing with the conflicting feelings, etc. An interview/discussion like that would have helped their image so much more than the garbage they expected me to believe.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I read the in touch thing one of you ladies posted yesterday and one thing really stuck out to me. It said in one part that jana was not touched and a few lines down it said that the oldest duggar that was touched is the one who caught josh and told on him. That would mean that Jill is the one who told in josh right? If that's the case than it makes me wonder, Josh said that she was a tattle tale on the all about jill episode. Could he have been talking about this life changing event?

 

My feeling exactly about why Josh described her as a tattletale!  Shows how arrogant Josh is and proves he has no remorse even now.  

[CherryAmes]

If the girls really wanted to help this world, they could have discussed how to help other victims, including how to talk to your parents, how to get help, dealing with the conflicting feelings, etc. An interview/discussion like that would have helped their image so much more than the garbage they expected me to believe.

 

I wouldn't expect this from them if the abuse had been recent or if the abuse had been as rock bottom minimal as they claim that it was.  Otherwise, yes, they've had 12 years to process what happened to them and they clearly enjoy the spotlight.  This would have been the time for responsible people to talk about the ways that victims can get help - not to continue to simultaneously claim it was no big deal in the first place and that Josh is a changed person in the second as if the only person who really matters is the abuser. 

[Adiba]

"Megan Kelly getting very upset at this story being broken by In Touch....I am sorry, but your station was quick to report on this also when it broke. Throw your anger back at yourselves. You are the media also. Your anger over victims maybe not moving forward on reporting a molestation because of "This Story", you are the ones who are bringing these victims on television to cry over this. You did this interview for ratings only, not for healing."

From what I understand, Fox is more upset that THEY weren't the ones to have broken the story. Their request was, apparently, denied when they asked for the report.

I thought it was rather ironic for MK to bash the media as well. Granted, participating family members are there by choice (?) and not being involuntarily " outed," but for MK to imply that she nor Fox would ever do anything like that was disingenuous.

Unfortunately, the crass side of me feels much of the media coverage boiled down to one thing-- $$$.

MK's interview=ratings=$$$

JB's and Michele's participation =saving the show=$$$

InTouch mag article=sell more issues, more web site hits=$$$

I sincerely hope that Jill and Jessa did the interview uncoerced and for their own reasons, and that in doing so, they felt some sense of empowerment.

[yogi2014L]

c.I am beginning to notice, though, that as the kids reach adulthood, they are becoming unlikable in their own right.

 

Josh has been called "Smuggar" for years, and as much as people like Anna and the kids, Josh's relationship with FRC and his fringe political statements haven't gained him tons of new supporters.

 

Jill was very popular last year and there was a lot of excitement that Derick might help broaden her horizons but it soon became clear that Jill had no interest in becoming a Dillard and expected Derick to become a Duggar. I think that even the most ardent humper would have been put off by listening to Jill talk about how she wanted to "put those same safeguards in place" in her own home.

 

Jessa lost a lot of popularity last year for her strident self-righteous religious posts and while she's riding a wave of popularity right now, I think that her smug, sanctimonious self is going to put an end to that pretty quickly.

 

My point is that when you strip away that veneer of hope that we have layered over them and look at the people they actually are, they are just not very likeable. They are smug, and almost comically over-confident and completely clueless about their own lack of education, skill, and ability (e.g. Jill's birth plan). There is no humility or graciousness in any of them (e.g. the sense of being entitled to their own show, their lack of gratitude toward their fans). They are humorless in general and particularly lacking in the ability to laugh at themselves.

 

 

ITA- I snarked the shit out of Jill and Jessa pre-scandal, then I felt bad for them with the snippet of Jill crying. I watched the interview and BOOM they went right back to unlikable under educated ignorant fools to me. The interview was so harmful in so many ways they really should have just released a statement and left it at that. 

 

Yes I know they were parroting lines and we will likely never know how they really feel but seriously, I went from feeling sorry for them to wanting the show off the air after that Friday interview.

[OhioMom]

To those who say, "it goes back to the parents", I'm curious:

(I agree that the problem BEGAN with the parents), but, is Josh held responsible at all for his actions, even at 14? 

 

Josh's parents failed him, as well as everyone else in that family.  Josh is an adult now.  Why is he still hiding behind his parents?  I think that's what bothers me, a lot. Be a man.  

[Vivigirl10]

The girls say that they've forgiven and moved on and everything is now peachy-keen.....they have no lingering ill-effects of the abuse.  But these people are so completely ignorant, isn't it possible that one, more or all of the victims DO have issues that they are not equipped to understand are there because of the abuse they suffered?  OCD tendencies, issues with addiction, PTSD?  I'm taking a complete stab in the dark there to only illustrate the point, but isn't that a possibility?

 

There's also been discussion that because the parents never educated the kids on "good touch/bad touch" the girls wouldn't have even recognized that they were being abused.  I just can't accept that.  I have to believe there's an innate "gut feeling" that would rise up and make you definitely feel that what was happening wasn't right.  Even if you didn't understand it.   

[bubbls]

I wouldn't expect this from them if the abuse had been recent or if the abuse had been as rock bottom minimal as they claim that it was. Otherwise, yes, they've had 12 years to process what happened to them and they clearly enjoy the spotlight.

But nobody can put a time limit on processing abuse. They have about 20 years of brainwashing and denial to overcome, and I'm not even talking about the sexual abuse. I was immersed in a very similar type of religious sect for only a few years as a child yet I was in my mid thirties when I finally began to question what I'd been taught. And I wasn't brainwashed from birth like the Duggars. My point is it's very, very difficult to break free. Twelve years is nothing.

The blame is totally Pudgy Josh *and his parents' (I understand you aren't blaming the victims). I'm not buying the curiosity excuse. If he was that curious he'd have found some porn or magazines or just peeped at his siblings (as gross as that is). Nope, the urge to molest siblings and children is deviance not curiosity.

*EDITED to apologize. I didn't realize we weren't supposed to use that word. I did read the rules but I guess I missed it.

The girls say that they've forgiven and moved on and everything is now peachy-keen.....they have no lingering ill-effects of the abuse. But these people are so completely ignorant, isn't it possible that one, more or all of the victims DO have issues that they are not equipped to understand are there because of the abuse ........

Anything they struggle with will be called a "root of bitterness" or rebellion or unforgiveness or demonic. It will be called everything but what it truly is.

My psychologist told me adults who have been molested as infants struggle with the effects. So, yes, IMO there is an innate knowledge there.

Edited June 8, 2015 by bubbls
Calling Josh a pedophile

[GEML]

(Wry tone) Josh being curious would be a first in that family. They don't seem to be curious about ANYTHING. (And I've seen kids in Fundy homes that refused to have their curiosity taken from them under the most brutal of circumstances, so tat it's so seemingly completely missing in this family has always baffled me.)

[dillpickles]

(Wry tone) Josh being curious would be a first in that family. They don't seem to be curious about ANYTHING. (And I've seen kids in Fundy homes that refused to have their curiosity taken from them under the most brutal of circumstances, so tat it's so seemingly completely missing in this family has always baffled me.)

Curiosity killed the cat, or the TLC show dontcha know?

[Tunia]

(Wry tone) Josh being curious would be a first in that family. They don't seem to be curious about ANYTHING. (And I've seen kids in Fundy homes that refused to have their curiosity taken from them under the most brutal of circumstances, so tat it's so seemingly completely missing in this family has always baffled me.)

 

They're being trained to OBEY, but not taught to think.

[Oldernowiser]

There's also been discussion that because the parents never educated the kids on "good touch/bad touch" the girls wouldn't have even recognized that they were being abused. I just can't accept that. I have to believe there's an innate "gut feeling" that would rise up and make you definitely feel that what was happening wasn't right. Even if you didn't understand it.

I agree. But I also call total horseshittery on the D's trying to say that the girls hadn't already been thoroughly indoctrinated as to the location and value of their girl parts by that age. I'd love to think it was in the context of private parts are private and we're here to protect you, but I just can't buy that. But sex and uteri are all these people seem to be able to think about. Their market value, aka "purity," aka how not to become a spit cup or defraud your relatives, would have been yammered at them from the time they could say "side hug."

Not buying it, Duggars, sorry. Power and control over his daughters' bodies are just way too important to JimBob to think they would have let that go unmentioned.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Oldernowiser

[bigskygirl]

Once again, the term pedophile should not be use when it comes to talking about Josh. We are not psychologists, and if one of us were a psychologist, none of us has sat down with him to do a complete diagnostic examination to confirm he is a pedophile. Posts calling him one will be edited or hidden. Thank you for your cooperation and patience.

[CherryAmes]

But nobody can put a time limit on processing abuse.

 

According to their own version of events they were not even aware that anything had happened until they were told about it. Leaving aside our own doubts about how true this actually is IMO if they had wanted to be considered more sympathetic when they did their interview - and surely that was at least one of their reasons for doing it - they should have spent some time talking about other victims and paying lip service, at the very least, to promoting the need to get help when you are in an abusive situation.  Which of course they say they weren't but anyway.

[andromeda331]

My feeling exactly about why Josh described her as a tattletale!  Shows how arrogant Josh is and proves he has no remorse even now.

 

Me too. That was the first thing I thought of when it came out. Josh called her a tattletale. That along with the arrogant and smugness that Josh has shown on tv and in his interviews is also what makes it hard to believe he's "changed" or he's more "humbled" or even "sorry" for what he did. He's still the one who called Jill a snitch, he couldn't think of anything nice to say about Jessa. He made gross comment after gross comment on the show towards the girls. He complained about the house Jill got, he complained about the money spent to remodel Jessa's house. You know the one with mold. Where has he shown that he's changed and a better person? If anything I think he acts like someone who did it and got away with it.

[Oldernowiser]

This has probably been mentioned somewhere, but I'm on serious pain meds right now...does it strike anyone as really weird that MK would even ask that question about there being any more secrets? Okay, it gives the girls one more chance to look wide-eyed and indignant, but I just don't see why anyone would go there.

First, if there aren't more ugly secrets, it should be implied from this ill-advised PR push. The whole message was, hey, nothing happened, long time ago, nothing to see here. So given that MK is clearly in the tank for the Duggars, why ask?

Second, it sounds like a set up. Like something else is lurking out there that Fox knows about but hasn't broken yet. Again, why ask, since Fox is trying to act like the kinder, Godlier, media here?

Did they ask JB&M that question? Because the only way this might make sense is to establish plausible deniability for the girls later?

(Mods, please delete if rehashing...I'm not tracking 100% right now...thx)

[sometimesy]

I believe Jill and Jessa are telling the truth as far as they believe it and maybe even believe the discrepancies. They have been doing the 'reality' thing for so long that fibs are their reality. Jana hidden on the Josh and Anna family trip for example. They get my sympathy for being 'victims'. However, I do not want to see this group continue with their tv platform. Jill and Jessa are hardcore cult members.

 

As for being victimized by losing their show. C'mon!! Having the show for all these years means they have money to the good, investments, mortgages paid off that they otherwise might not have, but not having a show doesn't victimize them. No one is entitled to teevee show.  

[Lemur]

The thing is, I firmly believe this goes back to the parents, because if they had sought appropriate treatment, they not only would have possibly saved their daughters more abuse, the matter would have been closed and the records sealed, and there would have been no reason for the police or the sheriff's department to investigate anything. Hell, maybe Josh would have even gotten some help.

 

 

This is one of the great ironies of this situation, and there are many, many ironies here.  Physicians, mental health professionals and other health workers are mandatory reports under Arkansas law.  If they sought the appropriate treatment, law enforcement/CPS would have been involved anyway.  But, as it all would have happened when Josh was still a minor, it would have all been legally and rightly sealed.  

 

By trying to handle it "in-house", Jim Bob effectively screwed his kid and his kid's future up as well as made more victims out of his daughters.  

[GEML]

I can't help but see what Josh was doing as a cry for help. Especially since at least some of the time he was reporting himself to his parents. I think they really did act as though it was no big deal. And Josh at 14 knew it wasn't. What's weird is that Josh at 18 may have been persuaded that it really wasn't a big deal, but at 14, he knew!!

[ZoloftBlob]

. Especially since at least some of the time he was reporting himself to his parents.

 

I have to be honest. I would need to hear this directly from Josh before I begin to accept the narrative of "Joshiekins touched his sister for seconds and then ran to Mommy and Daddy with his sins every time" because the police reports do say it was a sister and because I think " Josh told us as soon as it happened" is part of the PR narrative to rehab Josh's image.

[CherryAmes]

Especially since the only "inappropriate touching" they were prepared to talk about was the over the clothes just for a few seconds and she was asleep dammit asleep touching.  That they did not allow the discussion to go down the road of Josh molesting a 5 yr old and molesting girls who were awake and aware of what he was doing speaks volumes.  But I don't think it's speaking to most what the Duggars were hoping for.  Personally I think it's creepy that he molested sleeping children in the first place, not less bad, and it's even worse that they aren't addressing the other incidents.  They can't put their special spin on those I guess so we're all supposed to pretend they never happened.

Edited June 8, 2015 by CherryAmes

[Abmis]

I had to rewatch the interview to make sure I was remembering this correctly, but fairly early in the interview Megyn asked the girls if their parents talked to them about what happened in 2002 or 2003.  They apparently weren't prepared for such a question and kind of stuttered around until Jill replied that they were just little girls at that point.  I think she was trying to say that they were too young at the time to really be thinking about what year it was, but what all she did was remind me that they were little girls.  Little girls who were let down by the people who should have been protecting them.  It made me so angry and so sad.

[spidermiss2426]

This has probably been mentioned somewhere, but I'm on serious pain meds right now...does it strike anyone as really weird that MK would even ask that question about there being any more secrets? Okay, it gives the girls one more chance to look wide-eyed and indignant, but I just don't see why anyone would go there.

First, if there aren't more ugly secrets, it should be implied from this ill-advised PR push. The whole message was, hey, nothing happened, long time ago, nothing to see here. So given that MK is clearly in the tank for the Duggars, why ask?

Second, it sounds like a set up. Like something else is lurking out there that Fox knows about but hasn't broken yet. Again, why ask, since Fox is trying to act like the kinder, Godlier, media here?

Did they ask JB&M that question? Because the only way this might make sense is to establish plausible deniability for the girls later?

(Mods, please delete if rehashing...I'm not tracking 100% right now...thx)

 

That is exactly what I thought.  If there isn't anything more to hide, why ask?  Unless Megyn Kelly and her research team have been spying on this forum.  I know we've been speculating about there being more.  But just the fact that it was ASKED, makes me think that there is more to come out.

 

As far as the "victim" word versus the "survivor" word... you can absolutely be both.  I think my Mom was both.  She never dealt with her own molestation as a child, instead swallowing it down and laughing it off.  So in a way, she continued to be a victim.  But she was determined to give my sister and myself a better life than she had, and she did.  So in that way, she was a survivor, and quite the successful one.

[GEML]

If we heard from Josh, people would just say he was lying. The police report itself says he self-reported, so I'm going with that, although I don't consider the police report "the truth" by any means. (I actually think there were quite possibly more times and perhaps other people, but I also don't think anyone in the police report was "lying")

[andromeda331]

I think she was trying to say that they were too young at the time to really be thinking about what year it was, but what all she did was remind me that they were little girls.  Little girls who were let down by the people who should have been protecting them.  It made me so angry and so sad.

 

 

Me too. I get they are trying to say it was a really long time ago. But that's also where they go wrong in their defense. To do that they also point out that they were little girls when it happened. Which they were which only makes what Josh did worse. It doesn't help with their story that it was nothing or no big deal. This is the part either the girls or more likely their parents don't understand what the public seems to be focusing on. Josh touched his sisters and they were little girls. Whether it was over or under clothes its still a big deal. 

[Satchels of gold]

The thing is, I firmly believe this goes back to the parents, because if they had sought appropriate treatment, they not only would have possibly saved their daughters more abuse, the matter would have been closed and the records sealed, and there would have been no reason for the police or the sheriff's department to investigate anything. Hell, maybe Josh would have even gotten some help.

I'm not going to pretend that I think well of this family or the impact they've tried to have on society, but since I'm a human being, I don't actually feel glee when children are molested. Frankly, one of the most disturbing things about following this story has been the number of times I've read, casually, as though it was an understood thing, that given my political and cultural leanings I (or at least people like me) clearly do, and people like me are the reason these girls are suffering.

I'm a fat old hippie-wife-and-mother who doesn't believe in cruelty to freaking chickens, for crying out loud, and if some part of this is that the parents of these children think I'm more dangerous than having their daughters preyed on and their son descend into being a predator, and there are people out there (not politicians and political operatives, but actual people) who agree with that, our discourse is more broken than I thought. And I'm very frightened for our kids.

Will you marry me? I'm a hippy mama too! It breaks me heart to think of all these girls have been through, and the moleststaion is only one part. I hate that they are uneducated, psydo-moms/teachers/slaves and that they are married off and having babies before they even experience life. But it does support my life philosophy that " what you resist, persist" and that all things are set right in the fullness of time. If Ma and Pa Kettle had done the right thing back then the records would be sealed and none of this would be happening. One of my favorite quotes is "though the mills of the Gods grind slowly, yet they grind exceedingly fine"

[Aja]

I don't even think the Duggars themselves have their stories straight. Someone else so rightly pointed out: was it "a dark time for the family", or was it "geez I mean hardly any big deal at all, we basically forgot all about it". Did Jim Bob and Michelle feel like "failures as parents", or are they sanctimoniously secure in that they handled everything exactly correctly and all is right with Jesus? And, for the love of GOD, please stop trying desperately to convince everyone that molesting your sisters is no big deal if they are sleeping or too young to understand what you did. Sickos.

[Loves2Dance]

The more I keep thinking about the interview, specifically this one, the more I am questioning what these children were taught growing up. Clearly modesty was taught and is taught from a young age and I have no doubt the girls knew the parts they had---what strikes me as odd is when Michelle said, "The girls didn't even know it was a bad touch," or something to that extent when they talked to them after the fact. At 12 and 9/10, were they girls not taught good touch/bad touch? That stuff is normally brought up around the ages of 4-6 in most households...the youngest, okay I get that because she was so much younger, but the older three girls should have had a better handle on why it was wrong for him to do what he did. 

 

It makes me really scared for the younger girl's still living in that household; though i'm not looking at any of the Duggar boys specifically, they are around families who teach/practice the same stuff. If 12 year old Jill was cornered by [insert other family member boy, around the same age] and touched at a conference or speaking event, would she have even realized that was wrong and something she should feel the need to report? It doesn't seem like the girls were taught to speak up if this type of things happens...overall, very, very scary way to parent, imo. 

[GEML]

You can make any line ridiculous, but at least at 16 (which is arbitrary) most states give you some adult privileges. You can work, make your own decisions about school, drive a car, and even marry with parental permission. You are in a quasi adult/child state - this was much more apparent before we extended adolescence, but it's still there.

[TheRealT]

Especially since the only "inappropriate touching" they were prepared to talk about was the over the clothes just for a few seconds and she was asleep dammit asleep touching.  That they did not allow the discussion to go down the road of Josh molesting a 5 yr old and molesting girls who were awake and aware of what he was doing speaks volumes.  But I don't think it's speaking to most what the Duggars were hoping for.  Personally I think it's creepy that he molested sleeping children in the first place, not less bad, and it's even worse that they aren't addressing the other incidents.  They can't put their special spin on those I guess so we're all supposed to pretend they never happened.

The Duggars' weird hierarchy of levels of sexual abuse is creepy and twisted. It seems that they actually believed that the public would be reassured that Josh's molestation of his sisters was (mostly) "mild," "sly," and not "rape or anything." Oh, and also that and way worse goes on in up to two thirds of families. Well, alrighty, then. I used to think child molestation was such a big deal, but, obviously, it depends how severe it is and whether or not the victims say they mind. And how sorry the perpetrator is (as he continues and escalates the abuse).

 

A big part of what creeps me out about the Duggars with all of this is how they act as if wanting to molest children is a "normal," sinful urge. I don't really buy into the concept of "sin," but I can understand how committing some immoral/harmful acts is something many people would enjoy doing if there were no negative consequences for themselves or others. It's understandable that someone would like to steal something from a store just because it's nice to get something for free. It's understandable that someone would want to engage in consensual sexual activity before marriage (a "sin" in the Duggars' world) because sex is enjoyable. They seem to view child molestation in that same vein, a "sin" or "mistake" that Josh did out of normal sexual curiosity and/or desire. They try to brush off the assaults on the girls who were 9 and up as "curiosity about girls' bodies," which is a tenuous enough argument, then they kind of try to lump the assaults on the girls under 9 in with that "normal" stuff. It was "mostly" "normal," "mild," over-the-clothes, quick "inappropriate touching" (NOT rape, molestation, or pedophilia!!!) and the victims didn't even know, so... no harm, no foul! Bygones!

 

It's just so troubling that, apparently, they really do think this is normal. Jill looks at her newborn son and plans to have safeguards in her home to prevent him from acting on his (quite possibly inevitable) urges to molest younger sisters/siblings he might have. She presented that as a "normal," rational approach to parenting. How incredibly sad, on top of being incredibly sick and twisted. I'm not familiar with the Duggar sons-in-law at all, but hopefully/presumably they have told their wives that they were never tempted to molest their younger sisters or other children and that that is not a normal part of male puberty/sexuality or family life in general.

[doodlebug]

Yes.  Very coincidental.  All of the sleeping victims must've been very hard sleepers.  Impossible? No, but improbable. 

Yep, not just the victims, but also the rest of the sisters in the room.  We know the girls shared a bedroom, and even beds, back then.  So, Josh sneaked into their room in the middle of the night on at least 2 occasions and not one of the 5 girls sleeping in that room heard or saw him?  I slept in a bedroom with 3 sisters when I was the age of the older girls, we were also 2 to a bed.  I woke up plenty of times to see one of my sisters getting out of bed for some reason, my mom or dad in the room checking on us, closing windows, looking for something, or whatever.  Of course, I wasn't doing all the cooking and cleaning for a family of 15, let alone providing childcare and education for a half dozen younger kids like they were.  Maybe that's why they had no idea what happene, they were so danged tired from having to do their parents' jobs in addition to being kids, that they slept like the dead.

 

As far as all this 'light touching', 'over the clothes', 'just a few seconds' baloney; I presume this came right from the child molestin' horse's mouth itself.  Once again, considering the source, I find this hard to believe.

 

Considering all of the BS we've heard over the years about 'keeping sweet', 'training' the kids to be absolutely obedient to the parents no matter what; I'd find it hard to believe that any of these kids wouldn't be hard pressed to minimize whatever happened in order to please their demanding parents.

 

And, yes, I think to most of us, the fact that Josh attacked his sisters when they were most vulnerable, either asleep or too young to understand/resist, makes it all the worse. And, if I was to discover that I'd been sexually assaulted when I was asleep, I would've been feeling even more violated and creeped out than if it had happened in broad daylight when I was wide awake.  The lack of control as well as the uncertainty as to what exactly he'd done would've made at least some of them MORE traumatized than if they'd been awake and cognizant, IMO/

Edited June 8, 2015 by doodlebug

[Fuzzysox]

Megyn Kelly is a former lawyer so why would she go on air claiming the police report was obtained illegally? It's been bugging me since the interview happened.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[Churchhoney]

If an underage young woman who is asleep from laughing gas is inappropriately touched by a dentist, does this mean nothing happened because she was asleep?

 

Depends on whether you're a first-degree relative of the dentist.

[JenCarroll]

I've always preferred "former victim." Some people like to emphasize that they're over it by saying "recovered victim." If you're looking for a very neutral term, you can also say "targets" -- The abuser and his targets.

[SpottedCoachDog]

That is exactly what I thought. If there isn't anything more to hide, why ask? Unless Megyn Kelly and her research team have been spying on this forum. I know we've been speculating about there being more. But just the fact that it was ASKED, makes me think that there is more to come out.

The is a link a page or two back to a Washington Post story that states that the second report from the Sheriff's Department was 50 pages and InTouch had only released four so far. The editor of InTouch stated "We aren't done with the Duggar's yet". In light of Megyn's question, I have to wonder what she knew and why ask the girls and not Boob.

[Churchhoney]

Well at 11:59:59 someone can't legally drink, but at 12:00:00 they can... lines have to be drawn somewhere.

 

I don't think it is Arkansas law. I think it is the DSM-IV.

 

 

It seems to me the difference in age should matter.  A 15 year old doing something with a 14 year old (let's say consensual) would not meet that definition, even though legally a 14 year old can't consent.  But a 15 year old and 5 year old.  Seems like the word applies, even if we aren't allowed to use it on this forum to describe a particular Duggar.

 

I think JimBob said (can't believe I'm about to quote in some kind of semi-authoritative way) that the DSM puts the pedophilia cutoff at 16 but would characterize a 14 or 15 year old who touched children as having a paraphilia -- which means having a condition that's borderline....i.e., they're not quite willing to definitively name all such cases as being  perverse enough to qualify as full-blown pedophilia in this case. But a paraphilia is still a condition -- and it could easily be trending towards the real McCoy; that's why they mention them in the DSM. In other words, a young teen touching prepubescent girls might not be acting on pedophilic impulses. .... But I'm pretty sure that the words "five years difference" also come into the discussion of whether it's pedophilia or not. (JB conveniently didn't include this fact in his gleeful rebuttal.)  And when you're talking nine year olds and, ultimately five year olds, then that does apply.

 

In this case, though, I think we might also be talking mainly about targets of opportunity. Sexual molestation is about power. And these were the people Josh had available to exert power over.

[Ripley68]

I move my son all the time from his weird sleeping positions, IF he wakes up, he never remembers the next morning. I can see the girls sleeping through it.

 

Back to the whole hypocrisy, "curious 14 year old," you know if it was a non-fundy, or borderline gay, heads would have rolled.

[MrsMommy]

I have been very hesitant to say anything in this thread because of some of the comments I've seen toward jill and jessa. I'm going to say it anyway and yall may think of me as you wish :)

The reason I believe jill and Jessa and the reason I can't hold them to blame for saying it's no big deal is this, when I was around 4 years old my mom walked in on my grandfather touching me where he shouldn't have been and doing things he shouldn't have been doing. After that I think I seen him 3 times and never spoke to him. My mom told me what had happened when I was about 12 years old and we talked about it again when the duggar scandal broke. I don't feel as if I'm a victim and I don't feel like it's a big deal. I mean it is but it isnt. It's very hard to put into words. Because I don't remember it, it kinda makes it seem like it didn't happen so it's not a big deal. I know it's very hard to explain but being in my shoes it's understandable. I'm sorry if I confused you! Now that I'm embarrassed I'll be lurking

[Sew Sumi]

Megyn Kelly is a former lawyer so why would she go on air claiming the police report was obtained illegally? It's been bugging me since the interview happened.

Well, someone has to graduate last in their class. :D 

[doodlebug]

I have been very hesitant to say anything in this thread because of some of the comments I've seen toward jill and jessa. I'm going to say it anyway and yall may think of me as you wish :)

The reason I believe jill and Jessa and the reason I can't hold them to blame for saying it's no big deal is this, when I was around 4 years old my mom walked in on my grandfather touching me where he shouldn't have been and doing things he shouldn't have been doing. After that I think I seen him 3 times and never spoke to him. My mom told me what had happened when I was about 12 years old and we talked about it again when the duggar scandal broke. I don't feel as if I'm a victim and I don't feel like it's a big deal. I mean it is but it isnt. It's very hard to put into words. Because I don't remember it, it kinda makes it seem like it didn't happen so it's not a big deal. I know it's very hard to explain but being in my shoes it's understandable. I'm sorry if I confused you! Now that I'm embarrassed I'll be lurking

Thanks for your point of view, I am so happy that you've done ok and you and your mom are able to speak about what happened.  What I got from your story, though, is that your mother made sure you had minimal contact with your grandfather; you say you never even spoke to him again.  Good for your mom, protecting you and not taking a chance that your grandfather might try it again. However, we know for a fact that JB and Michelle did nothing for at least a year while Josh continued to assault his sisters and then, Josh was only gone for about 3 months.  That, along with the fact that JB and Michelle also had the girls accept his apology and, based on what we've seen on the show, that would involve them also hugging him.  I don't believe that it is very likely that all 4 of the daughters, who had a wide variation in age and understanding of the situation, could have all been in the same place emotionally and intellectually to be able to forgive him as soon as he returned after the 3 months.  Yet, that's the story we're being told.  To me, that means their 'forgiveness' may not have been as voluntary and unconditional as they'd like us to think.

Edited June 9, 2015 by doodlebug

[lbsm330]

Huckabee is on the Kelly File now talking about it. Not sure if anyone has mentioned that yet because I've not caught up on everything today yet.

[TheRealT]

Another thing that's occurred to me is, if you think incest/sexual abuse between siblings is a "normal" or common thing that happens in two thirds or more of families, why would you want to have a quiverfull of children? Obviously, it's harder for parents to institute and maintain "safeguards" with a larger number of children and the chances of producing an "inappropriate toucher" and/or victims for him to target are increased with more children. How do they reconcile their view that child molestation by a sibling is a result of normal adolescent sexual curiosity with a commitment to producing as many children as possible without regard for their ability to provide a safe, supportive environment for those children? Do they really believe that God doesn't care if their kids are molested as long as they produce as many kids as possible?

[mynextmistake]

When I was a child I would walk in my sleep, but I would be so fast asleep that I wouldn't even wake up when a parent interceded. My mom tells a scary story about the time we were staying with my aunt and I sleepwalked out of the bedroom I was in onto my aunt's non-railed deck. Fortunately they saw me before I walked off the deck and landed on the sidewalk two stories below, but my dad actually had to run out and grab me and carry me back in. I had no memory of any of it in the morning. Another time, I woke up with a black eye and no idea where I had gotten it until my mother noticed that I had apparently walked into the wall of my bedroom hard enough to dent the Sheetrock, again without waking up. So I can actually see sleeping through being touched.

That said, we know that at least two of the girls were awake for their molestation. And even if the others were asleep, who cares? That doesn't make Josh's behavior ok in the least.

[Bella]

We have said UMPTEEN TIMES not to get into the discussion of whether this was pedophilia.

 

Stop it.

[Churchhoney]

Another thing that's occurred to me is, if you think incest/sexual abuse between siblings is a "normal" or common thing that happens in two thirds or more of families, why would you want to have a quiverfull of children? Obviously, it's harder for parents to institute and maintain "safeguards" with a larger number of children and the chances of producing an "inappropriate toucher" and/or victims for him to target are increased with more children. How do they reconcile their view that child molestation by a sibling is a result of normal adolescent sexual curiosity with a commitment to producing as many children as possible without regard for their ability to provide a safe, supportive environment for those children? Do they really believe that God doesn't care if their kids are molested as long as they produce as many kids as possible?

 

Notice that all of the things you mention here require thinking. Duggars pretty much reject that activity, as directed by their spiritual guide, Big Bill. Because if people are thinking, how are you going to make moves on their innocent teenage daughters or look the other way while your brother fleeces them out of millions? C'mon now.