S05.E09: The Dance of Dragons

[Happy Harpy]

Tyrion actually said that to Hizdahr, though, not Dany, and he said it sadly in response to Hizdahr's rather flippant POV on death being a necessary part of great things (it wasn't a compliment).

I understood that, thank you . Tyrion and Dany found some common ground disagreeing with Hizdahr, and I quoted this particular remark as an example, although it was more of a "sealing the deal" line.

IIRC, Dany has a little smirk when Tyrion pays his not-compliment to her betrothed, considering that she knows very well what Tyrion thinks of his father (as anyone watching the show does, so there was no risk I could take "Tywin's seal of approval" as a compliment coming from Tyrion). I loved how she got the private joke, it was a small moment of levity and very welcome after the emotionally draining Shireen one.

I actually think it's my favorite scene of the episode, because it seemed to be the beginning of an appreciation on a personal level (maybe future friendship) between Dany and Tyrion. From a writing POV, it was an excellent, very efficient way to have those two characters discover that their actually have the same opinion about the essential, and steer their relationship a bit further.

Oh, and I forgot to say that I loved Tyrion being all worried for his bro Jorah. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[proserpina65]

There are worse things than Sansa's wedding night.

 

I don't know if I can keep doing this.  I'll probably watch the season finale, but after that, I don't know.

[jcin617]

This was the definition of a pyrrhic victory for Stannis.

True, but part of me thinks Stannis believes he's doing this for the realm because he thinks he is the one destined to save everyone from the White Walkers.   "The good of the many..." sort of thing.   He needs to capture Winterfell to secure the North.   Because if the North falls to the Walkers, the South has no chance.

 

It just seems weird to me that there was closeups of Dany grabbing Jorah's hand and Dany grabbing her translator's hand.

 

When Jorah told Tyrion not to let the Stone Men touch him, they were covered with greyscale.  I think so long as Dany and company do not touch the greyscale patch on Jorah (or vice-versa) then they're "safe".  It doesn't look like Jorah has been touching the patch to contaminate his hands... but who knows.

[Philbert]

 

If Ramsay is close enough to Camp Stannis to sneak up on them and burn their supplies, how is Stannis too far to reach Winterfell without a sacrifice? This show is trying way too hard to make Ramsay badass at the expense of logic.

 

Stannis has to move thousands of men, horses and siege equipment through snow in terrain he's not familiar with. Ramsey is moving himself and 20 men through territory they all know like the back of their hands. HUGE difference. Ramsey and his crew also have a nice big warm castle waiting for them when they get back. Stannis and his army have...the snow.

[proserpina65]

I don't know if it's true but I've read that Shireen's death by fire is going to happen in the books as well. 

I suspect it will, as well, but while I can see Melisandre and Selyse doing it while Jon is . . . whatever he is (because I can't see him allowing that to happen if he was okay), I could never have seen Book Stannis doing that.  It's the final nail in the coffin of the destruction of Stannis as a character.  Stannis is now irredeemable for me.

[Knuckles]

The success of the Ramsay raid was a little strange...not one guard saw anything? Mel being thrown out of Stannis' tent over her suggestion to burn Shireen in an earlier episode makes me wonder...if she felt her power over Stannis slipping away, that is some serious motivation to use this attack for her own purposes...so, she saw Ramsay and friends approaching while she consulted her fires? Possible. And with 20 men, she could assume it would not be a final defeat, but damaging enough to convince Stannis to burn his child.

 

Hizdahr is also problematic...he was late because he was "making arrangements"...still could have been in on the Harpy attack...and they took him out because they could not fully trust his loyalties. This one is ambiguous as well.

 

And Mace...putting Highgarden up for collateral on behalf of the Lannisters...does Olenna even know he's at Bravos doing a deal with the Iron Bank?  

 

I do think Doran is playing Jaime...do ravens not fly to Dorne from King's Landing? He's in a far better position to know that the Sparrows are running amok, Cersei and Margaery are in the slammer, an Tommen hiding in his room. He is keeping all that close while declaring his utter loyalty to the King..struck me as a line of bull.

jaime bought it though, and he now has Trystane on the Small Council, presumably with a coterie of skilled fighters. Puts his boy very close to the Iron Throne.

Didn't strike Jaime that Doran is a little too accommodating to the family who raped and murdered his sister and slaughtered her children. Jaime continues to be enormously gullible.

[Constantinople]

I don't understand what Prince Doran is doing.

 

Although Doran asked if Tommen requested that Myrcella be returned to King's Landing, and Jaime said yes, clearly this wasn't the case

 

• As Doran pointed out, Jaime and Bronn snuck into the Doran.  They were also wearing Dornish clothing that clearly had blood stains on them.  They were in no way acting like anything resembling an official embassy.
   
• You'd also think there would some kind of written request or some written document indicating that Jaime was present on the king's orders.  There was nothing.

 

I can understand not killing Jaime, but I don't understand returning Jaime and Myrcella back to King's Landing along with Trystane.  If Doran kept Jaime as a hostage, there's not much the Lannisters could do about it.  If Aegon the Conqueror couldn't conquer Dorne, there's no way the Lannisters can in their present condition, even if Doran doesn't yet know that Cersei has been imprisoned by the Faith Militant.

 

I don't know what Doran expects Trystane to do on the council.

[Philbert]

 

I could never have seen Book Stannis doing that.  It's the final nail in the coffin of the destruction of Stannis as a character.  Stannis is now irredeemable for me.

 

Oh, I think the big difference between book Stannis and show Stannis is that book Stannis would have it done while he was hundreds of miles away. The show has gone out of its way to send this message-Stannis loves Shireen more than anyone else in the world. So, why does he kill her? Because he's convinced that he's the guy who has to defeat the forces of evil-it's really not just about him being King. What the show has not done is spell all of this out for the fans. They're hinting at it, providing you little tidbits here and there but not stating it outright-which of course is confusing a lot of people and pissing them off. But I notice that only the Stannis fans are put out by this. Everybody else seems to be "Ehh, it's Stannis, what did you expect? He's a ruthless bastard who had his brother murdered by magic." I think Stannis is redeemable at the bitter end but only if he goes out in a blaze of glory fighting at the side of whoever the hero of this damned story is. Personally I think it's either Jon or Dany (or both.). But it's not Stannis, and we his loyal fanbase just got a big ole punch in the gut to remind us of that last night.

[FurryFury]

I understood that, thank you . Tyrion and Dany found some common ground disagreeing with Hizdahr, and I quoted this particular remark as an example, although it was more of a "sealing the deal" line.

IIRC, Dany has a little smirk when Tyrion pays his not-compliment to her betrothed, considering that she knows very well what Tyrion thinks of his father (as anyone watching the show does, so there was no risk I could take "Tywin's seal of approval" as a compliment coming from Tyrion). I loved how she got the private joke, it was a small moment of levity and very welcome after the emotionally draining Shireen one.

I actually think it's my favorite scene of the episode, because it seemed to be the beginning of an appreciation on a personal level (maybe future friendship) between Dany and Tyrion. From a writing POV, it was an excellent, very efficient way to have those two characters discover that their actually have the same opinion about the essential, and steer their relationship a bit further.

Oh, and I forgot to say that I loved Tyrion being all worried for his bro Jorah. 

Tyrion and Dany are probably the #1 reason I'm still watching the show after so many writing fails in season 5. And, well, because I want to see at least some resolution to the whole story and I obviously won't get it from GRRM. I feel like EC and PD have good chemistry and the characters feel like a great fit for an interesting dynamic. I love Dany but always felt like her supporting cast was greatly lacking, which in turn led to her storyline becoming boggled in characters no one cared about and Dany herself not getting called out on her mistakes and challenged in her beliefs. 

Which is why I'm so disappointed to see her get away from Tyrion and co so soon. I really hope she won't spend too much time with Dothraki. I'd prefer if it took no longer than an episode.

 

I don't understand what Prince Doran is doing.

 

Me too, but maybe he wants Trystane to prepare the ground in KL for Dany's eventual invasion? Thus the reveal scene next episode will be with his son and not Ellaria.

Edited June 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[OakGoblinFly]

This episode was a microcosm of the season; extremely uneven and generally very mediocre.

 

Arya's story line, which has been rather dull to date, finally looks like it could be interesting.  I notice that a Man did not pick up the Girl's lie about the Thin Man not being hungry today.  

 

We were treated to two absolutely lovely scenes with Shireen only to be followed by a horrific scene.  I kept hoping that the buck that Daavos carved for Shireen held a note telling her to meet him somewhere.  Then I kept hoping he would somehow save her from burning.  I do not like the way the powers-that-be are portraying Stannis and Melisandre and I really don't like where this story line is heading.

 

How many anvils were dropped at Castle Black?  Between Sam's "pep talk," Thorne's "you have a good heart but it will get you killed" and Olly's "stare-o-death" Jon is not long for this world.  

 

Nothing can save the Dorne story line; what was the point of it?

 

I thought the dialog at the fighting pit was well done (even if Clarke was out of her depth) and then it all fell apart.  The attack of the Sons of the Harpy was done well and appropriately chaotic and the appearance of Dragon was welcome but everything else fell flat - especially that horrific CGI dragon ride - Why is Jorah handling Dany?  Isn't he afraid he will transmit the Greyscale?

 

I'm rather glad next week is the season finale .... I have been extremely disappointed this season (part of that can be attributed to the fact that the last two books were pretty bad).

[jeansheridan]

Why would he declare for Dany when his only heir is going to Kings Landing? Its a death sentence for Trystane if Dorne makes an alliance with Dany.

Doran plays the long game. Short term he has no idea about Dany' s qualifications. So he tightens his connection with the current power. It is a risk for his son but if he is going to be a leader he needs to network at the highest level. Also I suspect Doran already knows Cersei is in jail. Tommen is a weak king. Better to have eyes and influence in the court. Trystin will make a charming brother in law.

And it wasn't as well written but I think Doran was taking Jaime' s measure. Is this a man I can work with? Jaime being honest about the threatening letter and arguing for Bronn' s life speaks well for him. His relaxed silence in the next scene when she comes to vent a bit was also interesting. Her mocking comment about his writing and her bluntness about his love for Cersei (and her understanding) all felt like tests. Is this a person I can work with?

The writing isn't as smooth but I do get the point of Dorne. I just think The Wall was cooler this year.

Doran referred to four nieces didn't he? One more snake lurking? I liked seeing their game actually. Breaking the rules gets results in the moment.

[nodorothyparker]

Shireen's death was easily among the most terribly awful we've seen in five seasons but it makes sense from a pure story arc for Stannis.  

 

Lest we forget, we were introduced to Stannis and Melissandre in the second book/season by their burning the old gods followed shortly by people.  They've been burning people all the way along because it worked for them.  And Stannis is a very black and white by the the book kind of thinker.  The same personality quirks that make him so endearing as a stickler for grammar also make him a person who believes he's the rightful king because that's what the rules of succession say.  Combine that with the fact that the red witch has been whispering in his ear this whole time about how he's the rightful savior of their world and a huge sense that it's his turn after doing a lot of thankless jobs for an older brother who got most of the glory but then drank away his kingship and a younger brother who inspired what should have been Stannis's rightful bannermen to follow him instead, and it becomes a perfect storm for Stannis to buy into the idea that this is his time and he has to make whatever sacrifice is required.  If he backs down, it's over and was all for nothing.  So he makes the most awful choice he can and banks his hopes on the payoff being worth it.  

 

At this point, I'm honestly not rooting for any of these people to "win" the Iron Throne.  If they don't figure how how to handle the white walker mess, it's not really going to matter anyway.  I would kind of like to see Stannis and Ramsey take each other out to leave Sansa with the help of Brienne standing on their ashes, but with this series I know better than to get my hopes up.

Edited June 8, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[nksarmi]

Dumb question going back to Dorne and Ellaria:

 

I know that vengeance over the death of a loved one is a standard motivator in this kind of story (and indeed in GoT in general), but why are Ellaria and the kids so hellbent on destroying the Lannisters? Wasn't Oberyn's death more or less via a fair fight that came about as his own choice? Am I forgetting some sort of double-crossing that occurred? It seems like it would be the same thing as swearing vengeance because someone died in the jousting tournaments. So I must be missing something.

Well remember that Oberyn hated the Lannisters for his sister's and niece and newphew's death and as his lover of many, many years, I can see why she latched on to that hatred in his death.  I don't know if that hatred will transfer to Tyrion himself or if his killing of Tywin would placate her in regards to him.  Her final scene with Jamie actually confused me, but it did follow her submitting to Doran so maybe he revealed some plan to her that we have not yet been told.  I love the speculation that if Doran knows about what is going on in KL (maybe he intercepted a raven meant for Jamie? or maybe he just has spies of his own?) that maybe his choice to send his son with Marcella will result in Tommen's death.  I want the queen making plot so damn bad lol.

 

Doran also mentioned that Ellaria was the mother to four of his nieces and we know that at least one of the sandsnakes we have seen so far is not her daughter.  If she has other children out there, could it be possible that Doran as well and we just haven't met them yet?  We have seen relatively little of Dorne.  Have they explicitly said that he has only one child/son?  I'm kind of hoping we still might get Arianne. 

[dr pepper]

Dammit Stannis! If anyone else, even an ally, killed an innocent child like that, you'd execute them for war crimes. I am so disappointed.

 

Also disappointed within the glee, if that's a thing in how much smaller the dragon was than in the book.

 

But yeah, breathtaking dragon scene. The topper on a nice show that included a quick medley of major fighting styles from both continents.

 

A girl has failed in her mission. Worse, she has entertained squandering the Gift for purely personal reasons, and those of a person a girl is currently not. A dark punishment awaits.

 

Slap happy sand snakes have been watching too many Kung Fu reruns.

[nksarmi]

This line of thinking, while obviously wrong to us, would certainly explain why he felt he had to do what he did. I agree with your point here and I think that's exactly where they are going with this. The whole thing felt like a Greek Tragedy to me-the would be hero sacrifices his beloved child to defeat the forces of evil...but realizes to his horror that he's NOT the Hero. It's obvious that Martin (and B&W) are setting Jon up as the savior that Melisandre has been going on about...not Stannis. Shireen probably died for nothing-and that's the point. That explains why that I'm not angry at the showrunners for this. Yes, it sucks to like a character and have him do a horrible thing but at least I get why he's doing it. What I hope that Stannis (and we, his poor tortured fanbase) gets at the end of this story is at least a shot at is a chance to redeem himself by dying heroically against the forces of evil. That's as good as any of us are gonna get at this point-kind of like Spike getting burned up by the magic amulet while Buffy drives off in a school bus on her way to Cleveland with that pack of stupid girls. (no, I'm  not still bitter at the craptastically bad BTVS ending of 12 years ago. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)

I thought Stannis would die a hero - not THE hero, but he would get the noble death that neither Robert nor Renly received.  But then again, I think the actor lured me into liking a character that I should have kept neutral about like I was in the books.  I needed to remember that he did burn his brother, he would have burned more than one baby in the books if the situation would have worked out in his favor to do so (one of them his actual nephew) and frankly, burning Shireen probably isn't out of character for him.  But damn it, that still sucked.

 

I want Shireen's death to come to nothing.  The poor, sweet, clever girl is dead.  And I fear that now Stannis is going to win the Battle at Winterfell (something I would have liked before) and feel himself justified in his evilness.  I want him to lose and die knowing he killed the only person in the world who loved him for absolutely nothing.  But I suspect he will win, kill Ramsey and/or Roose (which I will now have mixed feelings about - damn it show!) and win Winterfell.  I at least can live in hope that Brie will get her revenge and hopefully it will happen in the next episode.

 

And as I recall in the books with Mel's willingness to burn Mance's (the king beyond the wall) baby, her definition of king's blood is rather generous.  I wonder if she would classify Theon and Sansa as having king's blood since they were related to the usurpers?  After all, even though she considers Robb and Balon usurpers, those family lines do go back to the old kings of the North and the Iron Islands.  In the books, it isn't just Targ/Baratheon blood she is looking for, so I'd say if Stannis wins that Starks might still be in freaking danger.

[nodorothyparker]

At this stage, the only way the entire Dorne story doesn't feel like a pointless waste of time is if Doran is playing the long game and hedging his bets.  He may still be a secret supporter of Dany, but if he say, happened to get news about the clusterfuck that Cersei's unleashed in Kings Landing with both queens locked up and the ineffectual young king hiding in his room, it doesn't hurt to have his heir married to the girl who is still somewhat considered a legitimate claimant to the throne and parked in the capital with power of his own.  Maybe this is supposed to be their version of the queenmaker plot?

 

I read those scenes, as confusingly written as they were, as Doran and then Ellaria taking Jaime's measure too.  He's really largely an unknown politically beyond knowing he's the kingslayer and a Lannister.  He was honest about what they were doing there and he spoke up for Bronn the commoner.  At least if I tell myself this I can pretend that the entire season hasn't been completely squandered for one of my favorite book characters.

Edited June 8, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[proserpina65]

Why should they? Martin certainly hasn't...

I actually liked the Dorne storyline in the books.  (Well, most of it - Darkstar was awful, I could've done without the Quentyn travelogue, and the less said about the pathetic sex scenes, the better.)  Doran had one hell of a long game going, and I enjoyed seeing a land where a daughter could follow her father as leader.  Heck, I didn't even mind the Sand Snakes too much.  But unless we see something in the season finale indicating that Doran has any kind of plan whatsoever, D&D have fucked up the Dorne storyline worse than they did the Wall storyline, and that's saying something.

[RapBert]

Well, I think I'm done with this show. Not in terms of watching it, I will stay until the bitter end, but in terms of giving a shit about anything.

There is no character or story that I'm invested in anymore. There is no one left to root for, except maybe Davos, Jon and Team Daenerys.

All this gratuitous, exploitative violence has made watching this show unpleasant.

I want to see how it all ends, but I don't think I can bring myself to care about it.

[nksarmi]

At this stage, the only way the entire Dorne story doesn't feel like a pointless waste of time is if Doran is playing the long game and hedging his bets.  He may still be a secret supporter of Dany, but if he say, happened to get news about the clusterfuck that Cersei's unleashed in Kings Landing with both queens locked up and the ineffectual young king hiding in his room, it doesn't hurt to have his heir married to the girl who is still somewhat considered a legitimate claimant to the throne and parked in the capital with power of his own.  Maybe this is supposed to be their version of the queenmaker plot?

 

I read those scenes, as confusingly written as they were, as Doran and then Ellia taking Jaime's measure too.  He's really largely an unknown politically beyond knowing he's the kingslayer and a Lannister.  He was honest about what they were doing there and he spoke up for Bronn the commoner.  At least if I tell myself this I can pretend that the entire season hasn't been completely squandered for one of my favorite book characters.

I've been thinking about this more and more because to remove Jamie from the Riverlands and put him in Dorne is huge to me so Dorne must matter.  I believe at this point, something big is coming from Doran.  He's a complicated man who believes in second chances, but not thirds.  He also knows exactly how dangerous and powerful a Lannister and Martell can be.  And I think it's telling that he refers to Marcella as a Lannister - not a Baratheon.  Furthermore, Ellia flat out told Jamie that they know about the incest.

 

So - bear with me here - what if the Aegon plot isn't out but it's just been merged with a different character. What is Doran's son is a slightly aged up Aegon?  What if Doran has just put who he believes to be the true heir to the Iron Throne inches away from it with justifiable reasons to send an envoy of men with him?  If the game is this big, we still might meet other children of Doran next season - Arienne might still be in. But the big plot would be this - secure the Lannisters through Marcella while placing a Martell/Targ in KL for the taking of the Iron Throne.  It would be an amazing way to streamline the Aegon plot and show us two cases of uncles pretending to be fathers.  There would be a nice symmetry to it.

 

And well, the dragon needs three heads and I just don't believe that Tyrion is a Targ.  Plus I've read a few quotes from GRRM about characters that D&D have deleted that he wishes were in because they are important, but it's typically references to smaller characters like Lady Stoneheart or the fact that Loras isn't the sole heir to High Garden.  I didn't see him comment on the hugeness of the Iron Born characters or the lack of Aegon so I'm starting to wonder if that's because we will see those stories one way or another. Therefore, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Trystion equals Aegon on the show and that is Doran's game.

[proserpina65]

On another note, we got visual confirmation that Tormund is the father of Karsi's 2 daughters, right? He might slaughter villages full of innocent town folk, but he has good taste in women.

I saw him put his arm around the one, but I didn't take that as his being her father, just that he was comforting a child who'd lost her mother.  I'm not saying it isn't possible, and yes, that would indicate very good taste in women, but I wouldn't count that as absolute confirmation.

[Brn2bwild]

I suspect it will, as well, but while I can see Melisandre and Selyse doing it while Jon is . . . whatever he is (because I can't see him allowing that to happen if he was okay), I could never have seen Book Stannis doing that.  It's the final nail in the coffin of the destruction of Stannis as a character.  Stannis is now irredeemable for me.

 

Plus, from ADWD, I gathered that Shireen's greyscale was about to reactivate (based on Val's reaction), which might end up making her death in the books more of a mercy killing.

[gemmalogical]

Did part of the Dorne scene look strange to anyone else? When Hotah brings Bronn in and gives him an elbow to the face, the lighting was funky. It almost looked as if Bronn, and perhaps Hotah, was greenscreened in. Just my television probably. I am just glad Bronn didn't die. In spite of myself, I sort of warmed to Tyene. Her psych out of Nym during the otherwise stupid hand slapping scene was rather clever.

 

I don't believe Ellaria's tears or that the Snakes will go quietly. I do hope the KL bound bunch gets on a ship rather than travel overland and give the SS one last shot at Myrcella. I do think we got a glimpse of Doran's long game (Siddig was fantastic), but whether the show has the capacity to portray it properly remains to be seen. Now I'm hoping that Jaime gets back to KL, finds out about Cersei (he clearly doesn't know yet if he's writing to her), and takes off North, with or without Bronn in tow. Maybe we'll get some version of the Riverlands after all.

 

Shireen's burning was heart wrenching. Such a lovely girl, played by a fine young actress. I'm not a Stannis fan, either in the books or the show. He's a murderer and now twice (thrice if you count Florent) a kinslayer. He can talk all he wants about duty but it's about power pure and simple. Oh, and being completely enthralled by a madwoman. Bully for him for intervening at the Wall, but that doesn't make him admirable in the balance. Brienne can kill him any time now.

 

The final sequence suffered from poor CGI and the standard "lots of attackers stand around while one at a time actually attacks", but it was still effective. Let us hope that Dany lands next week, subdues the new Khal, and heads back for Mereen. It might be too soon for her to leave for Westeros, but I'm hoping that happens early next season.

 

Dreading next week and FTW.

[aucp3]

A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) is essentially a condemnation of much of politics AND religion and commentary on the massive gray area that lies between what’s right and wrong what’s a good decision and what’s not.

Notes:

- Stannis burning daughter (hasn’t happened yet in the books, but GRRM all but told D&D it would). Makes Stannis an asshole. Doesn’t make Stannis ANY different from the tons of real people in history who are willing to commit suicide, murder or sacrifice their own for a religious cause. Yes, Stannis is attempting to attain the throne, but beyond all of that, he believes himself to be Azor Ahai prophesied to save the world from the evil of the White Walkers. In his mind as a believer, what’s one child’s sacrifice when it means it’ll enable to him to save the entire world? To him, it’s just a test of his faith to the Lord of Light… ahem, JUST like Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac in the Bible.

 

- Dorne on this show has just never made sense and really continues to be boring.

 

- Ramsey is an asshole, but he’s incredibly smart in how to cause brutality and how to fight.

 

- I like Arya’s storyline and am interested AND afraid to see how she proceeds with Meryn Trant.

 

- Dany “leaving” her crew behind doesn’t really bother me. What other choice was there? Tell Drogon to fly away so she’s left to die? Stand there while Drogon continues to get hit with spears and then he dies? She made the lesser of the evils in my opinion. At least with her gone (who the Harpy were really after) her comrades can probably get out of there.

[Pete Martell]

I want Shireen's death to come to nothing.  The poor, sweet, clever girl is dead.  And I fear that now Stannis is going to win the Battle at Winterfell (something I would have liked before) and feel himself justified in his evilness.  I want him to lose and die knowing he killed the only person in the world who loved him for absolutely nothing.  But I suspect he will win, kill Ramsey and/or Roose (which I will now have mixed feelings about - damn it show!) and win Winterfell.  I at least can live in hope that Brie will get her revenge and hopefully it will happen in the next episode.

 

If they need Stannis to die for this, then I'd rather it be something like Melisandre kills him (her final sacrifice). If Brienne is heavily involved I'm going to see it as a cheat.

 

I do think the whole thing underscores yet again what a bad job D&D did of showing the damage the Boltons did to the North, that so many are rooting for them after they destroyed the lives of countless people. Of course, a lot of people don't even really hold Ramsay raping and beating Sansa against him, so I guess the show's endless ambiguity at all costs has once again killed any story momentum. Instead of wanting a family of rapists and murderers to face any justice, they are somehow heroes and righteous. Even before what Stannis did, I didn't really see all that much anger. I guess when the show itself seems so torn on how people should take Ramsay and Roose, it's not a shock.

 

I enjoy Iwan Rheon's glistening chest as much as the next person, but I hope D&D feel an entire season of butchered characters and repetitive ennui was worth the glimpse.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Pete Martell

[nodorothyparker]

Dany flying away on Drogon and leaving her crew to fend for themselves was probably the least bad option as it was the only one that was unlikely to end in either her or Drogon being killed, but it's still annoying that all she could do is stand around impotently while the rest fought to save her or risk getting left behind only for her to fly off with nary a "thanks guys, hope it works out for you somehow."  The dragons continue to be Dany's giant easy button and the only thing that makes her marginally interesting and not completely useless.

 

Tyrion's line that Tywin would have liked Hizdahr was amusing, but I read the entire scene on the dais as him seeing how court intrigue is every bit as unseemly and inappropriate on the far side of the world as it was in Kings Landing.  Dany is sitting there openly encouraging her lover to mock her intended consort and even joining in on belittling his city and culture that she's fighting with little success to rule.  Hizdahr died much as he lived, little more than a pawn thanklessly attempting to keep the peace between the foreign conquerors and his own people.  Tyrion's utter dumbfoundedness at seeing Drogon in action up close and personal was nicely done though.

[Sakura12]

While it does suck for Dany's crew to be left behind, To me it looks they were so enthralled with her riding a dragon that they weren't even thinking of that. After all that was in all the stories of they read about Targaryen's in the past. It's pretty much anyone can kill a dragon, but it takes something more to ride a dragon. 

[Haleth]

Doran also mentioned that Ellaria was the mother to four of his nieces and we know that at least one of the sandsnakes we have seen so far is not her daughter.  If she has other children out there, could it be possible that Doran as well and we just haven't met them yet?  We have seen relatively little of Dorne.  Have they explicitly said that he has only one child/son?  I'm kind of hoping we still might get Arianne. 

The show is pretending Tyene, the youngest SS we've met, is Ellaria's daughter.  The others are presumably too young to play a part in the show.  Remains to be seen if we ever meet the 4th older SS.

 

I'm guessing the show is presenting Trystane as Doran's only child.  It's a shame because Doran's long game, using his kids to woo different factions, was the most interesting thing about him and the Dorne storyline.  To date it has been a tremendous waste of time.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Haleth

[mac123x]

Information flow and travel times on this show are infuriating sometimes.  Joffrey died in 4.02, and by 4.04 the news had reached Meereen.  Jaime and Bronn took two episodes to get to Dorne.  Jon Snow did the roundtrip to Hardhome in 3 episodes. 

 

Yet it takes Mace for-freaking-ever to get to Braavos.  Cercei's been in prison for a couple of episodes; doesn't Doran know that?  Maybe he does, and we'll get a good expository scene with Trystane explaining what the hell the point was of this season long plot cul-de-sac.

 

Doran referred to four nieces didn't he? One more snake lurking? I liked seeing their game actually. Breaking the rules gets results in the moment.

 

Oberyn has 8 daughters in both the book and the show.  Ellaria is the mother to four of them.  In the books, her four daughters are all children under 12 and have only been referred to in dialog.  The four adult Sand Snakes (Obara, Nym, Tyene, Sarella) are not related to her.

 

On the show, they made Tyene one of her daughters.  Obara referred to her own mother as a separate entity, so she's not Ellaria's daughter.  I don't remember if they ever defined Nym's parentage on the show. 

 

The only other daughter named on the show is his fifth, Elia.  He was writing a poem for her last season when Cercei interrupted him to try to influence his vote in Tyrion's trial.

[benteen]

Dany flying away on Drogon and leaving her crew to fend for themselves was probably the least bad option as it was the only one that was unlikely to end in either her or Drogon being killed, but it's still annoying that all she could do is stand around impotently while the rest fought to save her or risk getting left behind only for her to fly off with nary a "thanks guys, hope it works out for you somehow."  The dragons continue to be Dany's giant easy button and the only thing that makes her marginally interesting and not completely useless.

 

Tyrion's line that Tywin would have liked Hizdahr was amusing, but I read the entire scene on the dais as him seeing how court intrigue is every bit as unseemly and inappropriate on the far side of the world as it was in Kings Landing.  Dany is sitting there openly encouraging her lover to mock her intended consort and even joining in on belittling his city and culture that she's fighting with little success to rule.  Hizdahr died much as he lived, little more than a pawn thanklessly attempting to keep the peace between the foreign conquerors and his own people.  Tyrion's utter dumbfoundedness at seeing Drogon in action up close and personal was nicely done though.

 

Not that Hizdahr was a particularly good man but Dany treated him terrible, almost like Joffrey treated Sansa.  I wouldn't have blamed Show Hizdahr for wanting her dead.

 

BTW, great pick-up by an earlier poster.  Jon arrived by BOAT to Hardome, by way of Castle Black.  But all of a sudden they are marching back to the wall to Castle Black, which is leagues away from Eastwatch?  It's this kind of intentional disregard for detail that drives me crazy.

[SimoneS]

Not that Hizdahr was a particularly good man but Dany treated him terrible, almost like Joffrey treated Sansa.  I wouldn't have blamed Show Hizdahr for wanting her dead.

 

I don't agree with this at all and don't how you could even have this perspective. Unlike Sansa, Hiz was no innocent and yet Daenerys did not have him beaten regularly. At most, she threatened him with the dragons and that was after putting up with him for months.  He was clearly involved with or had knowledge about the Harpies to some degree. He was an oligarch working to uphold his families' fortunes at the expense of having men fight to death in the pit. Even Tyrion could see this when he was spouting his BS and gave him the great insult that Tywin would have liked him.

Edited June 8, 2015 by SimoneS

[Ottis]

Didn't strike Jaime that Doran is a little too accommodating to the family who raped and murdered his sister and slaughtered her children. Jaime continues to be enormously gullible.

 

 

I viewed it also the other way, as Jaime saying whatever he had to, to get out of Dorne. He can't possibly promise a small council seat on his own, and he knows that.

 

Dany flying away on Drogon and leaving her crew to fend for themselves was probably the least bad option as it was the only one that was unlikely to end in either her or Drogon being killed, but it's still annoying that all she could do is stand around impotently while the rest fought to save her or risk getting left behind only for her to fly off with nary a "thanks guys, hope it works out for you somehow."

 

 

People seem worked up about this, however, there was a shot after Dany took off that circled her remaining allies and showed clearly no more Sons of Harpies around them. I took that to mean that the intervention of the dragon, and departure of Dany, ended the threat.

[DigitalCount]

I don't agree with this at all and don't how you could even have this perspective. Unlike Sansa, Hiz was no innocent and yet Daenerys did not have him beaten regularly. At most, she threatened him with the dragons and that was after putting up with him for months. He was clearly involved with or had knowledge about the Harpies to some degree. He was an oligarch working to uphold his families' fortunes at the expense of having men fight to death in the pit. Even Tyrion could see this when he was spouting his BS and gave him the great insult that Tywin would have liked him.

Threatening him with dragons is kind of a big deal when she arbitrarily fed another guy to them. Then, she held him in a dark dungeon and forced him to marry her. Further, I think the spec that he was a Harpy morphed into some sort of false confirmation, because I'm pretty sure he just got stabbed to death by Harpies. On top of that, she executed Hizdad for a crime he didn't commit. Edited June 8, 2015 by DigitalCount

[nksarmi]

If they need Stannis to die for this, then I'd rather it be something like Melisandre kills him (her final sacrifice). If Brienne is heavily involved I'm going to see it as a cheat.

 

I do think the whole thing underscores yet again what a bad job D&D did of showing the damage the Boltons did to the North, that so many are rooting for them after they destroyed the lives of countless people. Of course, a lot of people don't even really hold Ramsay raping and beating Sansa against him, so I guess the show's endless ambiguity at all costs has once again killed any story momentum. Instead of wanting a family of rapists and murderers to face any justice, they are somehow heroes and righteous. Even before what Stannis did, I didn't really see all that much anger. I guess when the show itself seems so torn on how people should take Ramsay and Roose, it's not a shock.

 

I enjoy Iwan Rheon's glistening chest as much as the next person, but I hope D&D feel an entire season of butchered characters and repetitive ennui was worth the glimpse.

I don't know - I mostly only go in book threads since my memory of what is in the show and what is only in the books is spotty at best.  But my conflicted feelings over Stannis and the Boltons isn't that I am now seeing them as "good" or that I'm rooting for them - it's just that I don't want Stannis to WIN after what he did to Shireen.  And even worse, the only way I see for the to BOTH lose is Littlefinger arriving at the pivotal moment with Vale troops to kill the remnants of both sides.

 

I hate, hate, hate that the show has given me three options for victors - LF whom I hate, the Boltons whom I've been wanting to see die since Roose first stabbed Robb, and Stannis who just burned his lovely daughter.  Ugh, I guess I have to go with LF and hope he gets what he deserves later.

Not that Hizdahr was a particularly good man but Dany treated him terrible, almost like Joffrey treated Sansa.  I wouldn't have blamed Show Hizdahr for wanting her dead.

 

BTW, great pick-up by an earlier poster.  Jon arrived by BOAT to Hardome, by way of Castle Black.  But all of a sudden they are marching back to the wall to Castle Black, which is leagues away from Eastwatch?  It's this kind of intentional disregard for detail that drives me crazy.

I just assumed that they had to dock somewhere and then walk to the Wall entrance.  I don't remember how all this stuff worked in the books, but I tend to believe the Wall must have some defense against people just going around it by sea.

[Dobian]

Moved to No Book Talk.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Dobian

[Helena Dax]

God, poor Shireen. Stannis, you deserve to die a very painful death and I want Davos to gut you. Not Ramsay; Davos. The honour of killing you must fall on someone who really loved Shireen. I want you to look at his eyes and understand you've failed as a king, as a person and as a father.

 

I need to believe  that Doran hasn't shown all his cards yet. His decision to send Myrcella and Trystane to King's Landing doesn't make any sense if he's a Targaryen supporter. Maybe Trystane is supposed to kill Tommen or he's just buying some time until Dany arrives. But there must be something going on.

 

Loved lord Tyrell, heh. I'm surprised he arrived alive to Braavos, I totally thought Cersei had ordered to have him killed. Maybe in  the trip back to Westeros? Anyway, I'm wishing Arya all the luck in the world. That pedophile guy can't die soon enough.

[SeanC]

I was listening to the E4.09 commentary track (actors for Jon, Sam, and Ygritte commenting), and all three of them were heaping praise on the actor playing Olly, how great and multitalented he is, etc.  I had to laugh out loud, because I've found his performance this season to be Jake Lloyd levels of bad.

I don't think it has anything to do with the actor.  I've found him pretty good in his dialogue scenes; but most of the time he's being given only a single note to play ("glower at Jon"), and there's not much an actor can do with that.  It's repetitive, and not terribly informative.

[proserpina65]

Re-watching instead of sleeping. Hizdar wasn't with the Sons, I guess? He was just kind of an idiot, defending the system right up until the day it killed him.

 

I still think he was one of the Sons of the Harpy, and that he was late because he was making sure everything was in place.  He just turned out to be expendable at the end.

[OakGoblinFly]

At this stage, the only way the entire Dorne story doesn't feel like a pointless waste of time is if Doran is playing the long game and hedging his bets.  He may still be a secret supporter of Dany, but if he say, happened to get news about the clusterfuck that Cersei's unleashed in Kings Landing with both queens locked up and the ineffectual young king hiding in his room, it doesn't hurt to have his heir married to the girl who is still somewhat considered a legitimate claimant to the throne and parked in the capital with power of his own.  Maybe this is supposed to be their version of the queenmaker plot?

 

I read those scenes, as confusingly written as they were, as Doran and then Ellaria taking Jaime's measure too.  He's really largely an unknown politically beyond knowing he's the kingslayer and a Lannister.  He was honest about what they were doing there and he spoke up for Bronn the commoner.  At least if I tell myself this I can pretend that the entire season hasn't been completely squandered for one of my favorite book characters.

 

 

If show Dorne is playing the long game, shouldn't there be a clue dropped somewhere along the line -- otherwise it will be seen as them changing sides to the "winning" team.

[Sakura12]

We can also go with Drogan is Dany's child, unlike Stannis, Dany saw her child being stabbed with spears and wanted to get them both out of harms way. 

 

I think even Tyrion was at a loss for words seeing someone flying on a freaking dragon. I don't think any of them imagined seeing that in their lifetime. 

[OakGoblinFly]

Regarding Jorah's greyscale, I think the scaly part is the infectious part. As long as someone doesn't touch the scales they're fine, at least that's how I'm wanking it so it makes sense. Jorah had his wrist well covered.

 

I can't wait to see Stannis realize he isn't Azor Ahai and that he murdered his daughter for nothing.

 

 

Except that Shireen caught her Greyscale from a doll ... no skin-to-skin contact.  I guess how Greyscale is transmitted is much like Mel's magic - plot driven.

[nodorothyparker]

I don't know that there is a winning side right now.  I just want the Dorne storyline to have a point -- any point -- and not have been a complete waste of time that removed two of my favorite characters from any other action all season.

[brisbydog]

I want Theon to kill Ramsay and redeem himself somewhat, and Brienne to kill Stannis (PAINFULLY) and avenge her Renley. And I want Sansa to take over Winterfell.

[jcin617]

I hate, hate, hate that the show has given me three options for victors

Victors for what?   Personally, I see Sansa coming out of this on top.   A defeat of the Boltons by Stannis and death of Stannis by Brienne leaves her in (technical) command of the North... well, until (and if) Rickon comes out of hiding.  

[Haleth]

Davos is free now to go look for Rickon.

 

Hizdad

 

Just wanted to give Digital Count kudos for this.  Nice one!

[lucindabelle]

  

 

- Dany “leaving” her crew behind doesn’t really bother me. What other choice was there? Tell Drogon to fly away so she’s left to die? Stand there while Drogon continues to get hit with spears and then he dies? She made the lesser of the evils in my opinion. At least with her gone (who the Harpy were really after) her comrades can probably get out of there.

 

Yes agreed I was cheering for Drogon and when he seemed to be hurting felt so AWFUL. So I was thrilled to see her get up on him and take him out of there. He was a DRAGON and fire-breathing but there were a lot of people hurling spears.

And if he died everyone inside the circle was going to die anyway so what choice did she have?

I dcon't know how the other dragons willbe reconciled but somehow they will. The sheer love between her and her baby black sheep dragon was thrilling.

 

I don't see why Shireen had to be burned, the most cruel way to go.

I think there's no doubt she's dead. She stopped screaming because she inhaled smoke and died.

[tennisgurl]

So, I`ll have more to say later, and maybe I`ll be able to understand more of why this could work later on, but I really really hate Stannis burning Shireen, and its really upsetting to me. I`m going to need to pull myself together before I read more responses and reviews, and come up with more articulate thoughts. Half the reason I loved last week? I got to think "Wow, nothing horribly disturbed and offended me! This is new"! But this week...

[Matt K]

Well this season might be it for me.  I need a show to at least have some character I like on the screen otherwise it's just plot about people I don't give a shit about.  Stannis just completly lost me here and while I like Jon's story I don't care much for magical resurrection.

 

Arya's in her own world, which would be interesting if she was the main character but she's not and it doesn't seem to tie into the main plot in any interesting way.  Danny with Tyrion is at least somewhat interesting but she also on her own and seemingly lost a good deal of her warriors so she's almost back to square one.  And both King's Landing and Sansa aren't that interesting.  

 

As for tonight's episode, I got the feeling that Mel was the one responsible for the attack.  The fires seemed like her sort of thing, plus she was out and about during that time.

[Miles]

I read a bit on the youtube comments of this episode's recap and man is it a shitstorm.

Book readers are pissed and pure show watchers can't grasp that it isn't about Shireen dying, but about Stanis doing the killing. I didn't freak out, since I had my freak out back when Stanis killed Renly, something book-Stanis never would have done (Melisandre did it without his knowledge), but I can certainly understand them. This was an even harder departure from his character in the books and makes him irredeemable.

I have to say I teared up a little at that scene, and had I not been watching it on a train, I probably would have given in and just cried. That was cold.

The scene in the fighting pits was impressive, but it probably should have been switched with the burning of Shireen, because after that nothing could get me excited again.

Aria was fine. I guess we all knew this was coming. Wondering if she'll cross a name off her list and get thrown out by the faceless men or if she'll do her job, or if she can do both. Probably the middle option.

In Drone not that much happened, but what happened was fine.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Miles

[Chris24601]

More later when I'm not stuck posting from my phone, but after last night my ideal ending to the Battle of Winterfell is for Stannis to kill Roose and thinks he's won only for crazy-ass Ramsey and the Bolton army to have wiped out his entire force, ending forever any hope of his taking the Iron Throne and driving home that every atrocity he's commited has been for nothing. He then strangles Mel to death (who has a dying vision of Jon surviving his stabbing all on his own and taking up the Red Sword) and then throws himself off a bridge. Ramsey comes home victorious as Warden of the North to an auger in the jugular and bleeds out like a pathetic worm at Sansa's feet.

I can take or leave Dany... she's got the same manifest destiny complex regarding the Iron Throne and has no problems throwing potentially innocent men to her dragons without the dint of a trial. She's just the least bad of a pile of bad options.

The only team I'm rooting for at this point is Team Jon... the guy who has your back when shit gets real, who's willing to put aside petty differences for the greater good, who's only concern is saving as many lives as he can and feels he's a failure for only saving a few thousand of the Wildlings from the White Walkers (who would have killed them all if he had listened to the rest of the Watch) and whom you know will never spend your life wastefully. That's the guy you want to lead and even the dregs on the edge of civilization know it deep down or they never would have elected him their leader. There's a delicious irony to the guy who foreswore all lands and titles being the one most worthy by merit of having the highest of both.

[GreyBunny]

Except that Shireen caught her Greyscale from a doll ... no skin-to-skin contact.  I guess how Greyscale is transmitted is much like Mel's magic - plot driven.

She touched something that was contaminated by it.  I'm guessing (for the show) regular skin isn't contaminated but scaly skin and objects that scaly skin touches (and isn't washed) is.  Jorah's hand was okay but that doll was bad juju.

Edited June 8, 2015 by GreyBunny