S01.E21: The Anvil Or The Hammer

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The Ogre breaks down Barbara’s emotions, while Gordon and Bullock go to great lengths to track him down. Meanwhile, Penguin leads a massacre, beginning an epic war, while Bruce learns the truth about Wayne Enterprises and Nygma deals with his recent actions.

 

Promo:

[Primetimer]

Nygma goes Dexter, Bullock goes Eyes Wide Shut, Barbara goes Patty Hearst, the Penguin goes nuclear, and the Ogre goes down, while Bruce meets another citizen of the Bat-verse.

Read the story

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Welp, that ended quickly.

Orge is dead and Barbara is back to her useless self.

[SimoneS]

That was so fucking disappointing! And I was so excited about the episode. I thought they were going to have Barbara come into her own and handle the Ogre. Instead they turned her into a damsel in distress yet again. What a waste of Erin Richards' stellar performance from last week. These writers are sexist and pathetic.

Edited April 28, 2015 by SimoneS

[dgpolo]

So there's a big old bright sign that says 'Royal' above the city and that girl couldn't figure out that was where she'd been?

[foreverevolving]

Damn it! When Barbara and Jason were at her parents I suddenly got super excited at the idea of Barbara turning full on Evil or at least super grey.. and it (just like the idea of Laurel on Arrow turning Evil) was taken from me.

booo! thumbs down.

 

Didn't see the Penguin twist.

And I guess Nygma is officially gone coco?

 

Lucius!!!

and Bruce.. poor Bruce seeing everything he believed in the entire fantasy that was his life crumbling before his eyes.

 

Next week looks interesting. and Fish is coming back!! (well for now anyway)

Edited April 28, 2015 by foreverevolving

[MisterGlass]

Penguin did come out ahead in this one in that his plan to start a war worked, but I have to think he'll be a target soon, the little turncoat.

 

Oh, Ed, don't bring corpses to the police station.  He really made the leap to bad guy here.  At the end of last episode it was still somewhat open, but writing that letter and signing his name is supervillain territory. 

 

I think Barbara's been nudged into villain territory too, though it did descend into cliche.  The Ogre told her to pick someone for her to kill, and they ended up at her parents' house.  Hard to come back from that, even when it happened under duress.  Kris Kringle disappointed me too by being fooled by a type written note.

 

I've been wondering when Lucius Fox would show up.

[HoodlumSheep]

Butch! I love him so much!

I think I liked the last 2 episodes more, but this one was pretty good too.

Bullock looked snazzy in his suit.

Continue to love Jim and Lee.

Oh, Barbara. You believed him about the water? Babs should have either tried playing along, or named Jim, because then she would be bringing the Ogre to Jim.

Her poor parents :( I mean we had like one or two scenes of them being pretty jerky parents, but still...

liked how the ep ended with the penguin and some classic evil laughter.

Lucius!!!!

[Chaos Theory]

I loved it. The scenes between Jason and Barbara were made of magic especially the scenes at Barbara's parents house. The look on her face when Jason killed her parents was perfect and when Jim finally came to rescue her....everything just worked for me. Then again Barbara has been working for me lately.

[Spartan Girl]

I can't believe Barbara sicced a killer on her parents. Even if they were terrible that's just cold. Now I'm scared her crazy PTSD self will go after Lee.

Speaking of which, so glad Jim made it clear he loves Lee and not Barbara.

Hee, Nygma couldn't resist leaving a clue...

Edited April 28, 2015 by Spartan Girl

[SoSueMe]

I would have liked to see a few more episodes with the toxic mix of Barbara and the Ogre but, oh well. Looks like she may be trying to still do something with the part, like maybe the Ogre woke something up in her that will come back to haunt ???

 

This is the first episode that the music really jumped out at me, I liked it a lot. Didn't miss Fish at all.

 

I hate that the season is almost over :(

[Lantern7]

Damn. Not even Barbara deserved to get destroyed. I would've preferred a slow burnout, with Selina and Ivy pointing and laughing. Seeing her get tortured by Ogre (trying not to think Revenge of the Nerds) and getting her folks killed was brutal. And Jim prefers Leslie over her.

 

Anybody else think the guy playing Lucius Fox was trying to channel Morgan Freeman? Maybe a little?

 

Poor Ms. Kringle. She needs better taste in guys. Hopefully, she'll see Eddie on his trail of outfits with question marks all over, and she'll avoid him. And "read between the lines"? Oy. 99 percent of the people you encounter aren't that swift, Ed. And the one percent that is that smart don't want to play.

 

Anybody else miss Fish? Penguin's machinations and Harvey at the Foxglove did take away from the absence of JPS's overacting.

[ActualSize]

I got a crazy vibe off Barbara that made me think she was enjoying the parent-killing. Maybe she just had a psychotic break. Damn, this show is dark for its time slot.

[benteen]

That actor was REALLY trying to sound like Morgan Freeman.

 

I thought the person Barbara would tell the Ogre to kill was Falcone...that would have been a great tie-in to an earlier episode.  This episode pretty much finished off Barbara as a love interest to Jim.  Villain territory seems to be the only place for her to go now and they made her a total victim and damsel here.  The writers did not do Erin Richards any favors here.  Saw the NYCC panel for Gotham and she was a hoot on it. 

 

Liked Penguin's manipulations and Ed's antics.  Harvey was great too although that fall down the stairs isn't exactly something you shake off in about four minutes.

[Malbec]

That was so fucking disappointing! And I was so excited about the episode. I thought they were going to have Barbara come into her own and handle the Ogre. Instead they turned her into a damsel in distress yet again. What a waste of Erin Richards' stellar performance from last week. These writers are sexist and pathetic.

I have to agree.  Even as a quasi-villain she's a cipher.  I can't even hate the actress - what is she supposed to do?  

 

Bullock remains my favorite part of everything.

[benteen]

The writers have a real problem with how they write their female characters.

 

This part of the AV Club review made me laugh...

 

 

Gotham is possibly the most exposition-riddled show on TV. This conversation, which takes place after the Ogre calls the detectives while in possession of Barbara, deserves to be typed out word for word because it’s that horrendous: Gordon: “He was driving.” Bullock: “To Tahiti, if he’s smart.” Gordon: “There was a noise…a thumping…like he was going over a bridge.” Bullock: “You know, I heard a horn. Like, a train horn.” Gordon: “Okay, so which bridge has a train?” Bullock: “Ummm…damn…White Cross. But that’s the upstate train.” Gordon: “Upstate. That’s where her parents live.” I may have screamed at my screener at this point.

Edited April 28, 2015 by benteen

[Actionmage]

Kris Kringle disappointed me too by being fooled by a type written note.

 

I don't think she was. Ed's problem, besides covering a murder, is that he's pretty sure he's usually the smartest one in the room. Going back to the filing incident, Ed has to have thinks make sense to him before he considers something clever or correct.  We saw the note wasn't what Kringle said, but then again, who said she didn't see the real author?  Sending a note was probably not Officer Doughtery's style. Also, not typewritten. Not to "his girl". So, if Kringle is anywhere near as smart as some are surmising, then she will hopefully date outside of the cops and still not choose Ed.

 

I was more worried about Lee walking into her morgue and seeing Ed disposing of Tom (Off. Doughtery).

 

To echo: Lucius Fox!! Aww,as a Junior Executive. I loved him the second he looked daggers at Bunderslaw. Hey, Bunderslaw? What makes you think that words from a stranger who admits to criminal activities is going to sway Young Bruce? 

 

When Harvey Bullock thinks you've gone too far, maybe think a bit on your path? "And especially you two!"  Harvey looked good in that Italian suit.

 

What do ya know? There is a war and blood is starting to run in the streets. Hhhmm. That Penguin is like Nostradamus, huh?

 

As I stated in the Barbara thread, I was disappointed with how Barb was written after  the pictures and drugging. I understand her feeling that way, but she was so defiant before that. *sigh*  I do feel for Barbara, though. To be killed immediately or (hopefully) buy time for Jim to find her. Maybe that is the reason why she picked her parents. (Not that Barbara, on some level, think it was a better choice. There were other, obvious people she could have sent Jason after and didn't.) 

 

I do like that Bruce, for his single-mindedness, is shown to be relatively sensitive to Alfred.  Asking after him, after identifying Reggie, was thoughtful. And guilt-propelled, but still.  I do hope that Selina is given a heads up that Alfred knows. He may understand where she may have been acting from, but Reg was a mate and a loss is a loss.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ benteen, i laughed at that part. They both must have super hearing. And detective skills better than Batman.

Edited April 28, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Chaos Theory]

I loved the writing of Barbara in this episode. I am not explaining it well but her choosing her parents to die works for me far better then picking Jim or Lesley? I think a part of her wanted them dead and thus was the prefect excuse and this taps into Bruce's "even good people have dark sides" very well. This is Barbara's dark sides but she may not want to come back from it. It looks like she was enjoying herself.

[thuganomics85]

Well, I was kind of disappointed.  Was really digging the idea of The Ogre and Barbara becoming a team, and going crazy on everyone, but instead, Barbara ends up becoming a damsel and The Ogre is killed.  Lame.  I guess there is still a chance that her getting drugged and basically telling him to kill her parents could start her on a dark path, but I was just rolling my eyes over it ending with her in the typical body-shield position, and Jim having to "heroically" shoot The Ogre in the head.  Lame.  I would have expected better from them, but I guess they still can't quite get a handle on Barbara.

 

Oh, and I'll admit that I still laughed at the end, when Leslie was all "Honestly, I was being selfish, because I worried you would resent saving me and not even thinking about her!", and Jim just thinks for a second and is like "Nope!  No regrets there!  You over the cheating crazy any time!"  If The Ogre tried to kidnap both of them and do the whole "One lives; one dies!" act, Jim probably wouldn't be all that fazed.

 

Uh, Nygma?  I get getting rid of the body, but was lugging the body parts to the crime lab, the only option available?  Then again, I guess in Gotham, there is so much crazy stuff going on that the GCPD really wouldn't be all that concern over him randomly lugging luggage around.  You so crazy, Nygma!

 

Totally knew Bruce was being played.  Sorry kid, but you are not in their league yet.  At least Alfred knows, so hopefully that will help out.  Plus, Young Lucius Fox is here, and seems to be in his corner.  Cool seeing Chris Calk from The Newsroom in the role, even if it sounded like most of his prep work was just watching Morgan Freeman's turn in The Dark Knight trilogy.

 

Oswald!  Should have known you are thinking long term.  You weren't ever going to have Maroni killed: you want him to think it was Falcone, and cause a gang war!  You magnificent bastard!

[opus]

Although accurate, I noticed Bruce said to Alfred "Selina killed him", not " we killed him".

[Philbert]

 

Orge is dead and Barbara is back to her useless self.

 

 

Maybe not. It's pretty clear that something broke in her tonight. Where the writers take her next year is anybody's guess but I have the suspicion that it will be down a very dark road...assuming they just don't jettison the character. I don't think they will though.

[Sakura12]

DC seems to have trouble writing for female characters on all their shows. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Barbara's storyline turned into the damsel in distress instead of something interesting. I actually thought this show was getting better and for first time was looking forward to it. 

 

Way to throw Selina under the bus there, Bruce. 

 

I was surprised by Penguin's plan. He wanted to start a gang war, probably hoping they'd take each other out. The Riddler is starting to show as well, he was way to happy dissolving a corpse. 

[APSimpson]

Not sure how I feel about this one, even though I am enjoying the series. They seemed to want to wrap up the Ogre story, which I'm actually grateful for because it had gone on long enough. But it seems they may have been too expedient, as if they didn't want to have the Ogre go after Lee or something, which would have been the predictable, but more exciting thing to do. That's who I thought Barbara whispered into the Ogre's ear when he asked her who he should kill, but her parents? Huh? 

 

Regardless, even if it was Lee that Barbara had whispered, I wouldn't have held that against Barbara; she is in fear of her life and in a desperate situation, and I wonder why they didn't go in that direction? A chase to save Lee and then a confrontation with Barbara and the Ogre is how this all should have ended. It seems they wanted to wrap things up and even though I'm glad the Ogre story is over, it just seems a bit lazy to me.

 

Also, the whole "I would have saved you first thing" by Gordon to Lee was nauseating. We get it, and it's like they want to hit us over the head that Barbara and Jim are over and he's with Lee now so you better like it. I just wonder why they didn't kill Barbara off here? They must still have some plans for her character, but what that is I have no idea.

 

I liked that Bruce met Lucius Fox, nice little bone for the fans there. And we know Lucius is good and a friend to Bruce, so I was comforted when he came into the picture because now Bruce has another ally at Wayne Enterprises, someone who can really help him. Also Bruce opening up to Alfred was great. I want Alfred involved and it looks like soon we'll see what Bruce's dad's secrets was? The Bat Cave, perhaps?

[APSimpson]

I was more worried about Lee walking into her morgue and seeing Ed disposing of Tom (Off. Doughtery).

 

As I stated in the Barbara thread, I was disappointed with how Barb was written after  the pictures and drugging. I understand her feeling that way, but she was so defiant before that. *sigh*  I do feel for Barbara, though.

 

I do like that Bruce, for his single-mindedness, is shown to be relatively sensitive to Alfred.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought would happen too: Lee walking in on Nygma. He handled things well when Kringle saw the remains. I wonder if she knows, but it didn't appear that way. It is odd that Nygma would have full reign of the facility there and not run into Lee who is the head doctor there, but it's all television. Part of me was thinking that maybe Nygma would try to make Lee his next victim, but it looks like they didn't want her involved and didn't go in that direction.

 

I feel for Barbara too. She is a very complex character and I think one of the most interesting characters on the show. Not sure now what direction they'll take her in, and yeah, she has that dark side if she wanted her parents killed. That was out of left field.

 

I'm glad Bruce came clean to Alfred. I like the two of them working together. The scene in the preview where we see that there is something behind the fireplace will be mysterious fun for the two of them to explore and I'm looking forward to that!

[Slovenly Muse]

Yeah. Her parents? Really? Not sending him right to Jim, who could have caught the guy? Or Falcone, the LAST guy to hold her hostage? What an utter waste of a storyline. As has been said: sexist and pathetic. Whatever they're planning to do with Barbara from here, I don't hold out much hope. I mean, she was defiant at first, sure, but she didn't even do or try anything to save herself, like play along to manipulate him, or grab one of the MANY potential weapons surrounding them when his back was turned. I'm trying to remember if there was a woman in this episode who actually did anything meaningful, and wasn't just hanging around to talk to/about her boyfriend, or be a prostitute... I guess the captain got one line at the end there, so that's something.

 

Don't you just love it when the bad guys call you from their car phones at the exact moment they happen to be crossing the only bridge in town with train tracks at the same moment the only train just happens to be passing? Some would call it EXCRUCIATINGLY lazy writing, but I call it considerate villainy!

Edited April 28, 2015 by Slovenly Muse

[Jlina]

I feel so smart~!  Last week I was all like, ummm....Penguin wants Maroni? Nah, he wants Falcone.  And this week....it all worked out.  I just knew he wouldn't go for the quick kill :)

 

Harvey looked GOOD in that suit!! But it was hilarious when he pulled out his badge and oh, hell, no....that was amazingly weird but not quite sex - I mean a baby bottle?  ewww.  Still, amazed it showed on a 7 p.m. show.

 

Love Lil Bruce brave enough to put his Dad on his wall.

 

Barbara quickly, very quickly, became TSTL.  Sad, that. (Too stupid to live...why didn't she crack the glass and knife him the neck or SOMETHING...anything??? )  SIGH

[Actionmage]

and yeah, she has that dark side if she wanted her parents killed. That was out of left field.

 

She is a violent crime survivor. She was threatened with immediate death several times. She was a prisoner in an apartment designed to be sound- and escape-proof. To call her evil or a villain is to victim-blame.

 

When told no ( to naming another victim), Barbara was told then she could die. Unless trying to stay alive is a major crime now, I can't get angry at her. Picking her parents was the least evil of the many choices she had at hand ( if she has any religious beliefs). Sending Jason to powerful, well-known and guarded people would probably be discarded by Jason or take too long for his plans/her plans. (He wanted her to share his crimes; she was trying to buy herself or Jim some time.)

 

ITA that the writing for Barbara has been awful, but tonight, like last week, had some powerful moments for Barbara.

[missbonnie]

Maybe not. It's pretty clear that something broke in her tonight. Where the writers take her next year is anybody's guess but I have the suspicion that it will be down a very dark road...assuming they just don't jettison the character. I don't think they will though.

I wish they would because I have not been able to stomach her since the beginning. I don't know why, but I absolutely loathe her character. I'm hoping that somewhere down the line Jim meets another Barbara because this one sucks. I also thought that about Bruce throwing Selina under the bus, fine job master Wayne, make an enemy of the one person who would help you when Alfred wouldn't.

The whole episode felt like filler to me. They have a whole lot to cram into one hour next week, it will be interesting to see if they can pull it off right. I died laughing at Bullock's reaction to the stage show.

[vibeology]

I'm planning on watching next week to see how they wrap up the season, but I have a hard time imagining I'll watch next year. This show has a problem with women. Barbara got the worst of it tonight and has all season, but they way women have been written on this show all year bugs me. Barbara's characterization has been so all over the place this season that it wasn't clear at the end of this episode that she'd been drugged. For Barbara that could have just been her being her.

 

I did like Bruce's plot this week and Harvey is always fun. 

[The Crazed Spruce]

Am I the only one who was picking up a glimmer of Stockholm Syndrome from Barbara after The Ogre killed her parents?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Maybe not. It's pretty clear that something broke in her tonight. Where the writers take her next year is anybody's guess but I have the suspicion that it will be down a very dark road...assuming they just don't jettison the character. I don't think they will though.

I love Jim and Leslie together.

But Erin Richards really deserves better writing for her character.

I truly enjoyed her performance last week.

The Orge was killed too soon, they could done more with him

and Barbara. Their chemistry was pure fire.

Edited April 28, 2015 by MrsRafaelBarba

[Biggie B]

Having no Batman knowledge other than the campy TV series with Adam West from my childhood, I have no idea who Lucius Fox is. Thus, when he appeared, all I could think of was Lucius from 'Empire.' And then a few moments later, when Bunderslaw was urging Bruce to "take the cookie," again, all I could think of was the scene in Empire when Cookie was drunk and was urging the cute head of security boy toy to "take the Cookie!" My husband and I thought perhaps the Gotham writers were having a little fun and giving a shout out to another hit Fox series!

 

The writers are at a crossroads with Barbara. Having just barely survived a violently traumatic incident, she can easily be shipped off to mental institution or the like for rehab and thus conveniently be out of sight unless or until the show wants her back in some manner. 

[darkestboy]

Good episode, though not as good as the previous one.

The Ogre plot I was kind of hoping would bleed into the finale but it came to a decent enough conclusion here I guess.

Having Barbara choosing Jason to kill her parents should take the character on a dark path next season, right? I think there's definitely no chance of her and Gordon reuniting. He's definitely moved on with Leslie it seems.

Bullock at the Foxglove brothel was hilarious but he's been a source of humour all season though.

Bruce failed against Bunderslaw but he still has Alfred in his corner and now Lucious Fox too. I like the introduction for the latter in this one.

Nygma couldn't resist with the clue, could he? And neither could Oswald properly pitting Maroni and Falcone against one another, 7/10

[Jediknight]

Having Barbara choosing Jason to kill her parents should take the character on a dark path next season, right? I think there's definitely no chance of her and Gordon reuniting. He's definitely moved on with Leslie it seems.

Yeah, I'm guessing Barbara becomes a villain next season.  Jim names his daughter to honor the Barbara he loved and not the killer she'll become, at least that's my theory.

 

Oh Oswald, now it just needs to be revealed that he ordered the hit on the Waynes, and my speculation will be true.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Having no Batman knowledge other than the campy TV series with Adam West from my childhood, I have no idea who Lucius Fox is. Thus, when he appeared, all I could think of was Lucius from 'Empire.' And then a few moments later, when Bunderslaw was urging Bruce to "take the cookie," again, all I could think of was the scene in Empire when Cookie was drunk and was urging the cute head of security boy toy to "take the Cookie!" My husband and I thought perhaps the Gotham writers were having a little fun and giving a shout out to another hit Fox series!

 

Nice! 

 

I would highly recommend that if you have time you see the Chris Nolan Batman films: Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and the Dark Knight Rises.

 

They are not just good superhero movies, but good genre-transcending movies.

 

As for the cookie, I was hoping Bruce did something like drop it on the desk, crumble it up, etc. to show "this isn't over."

[Philbert]

 

Having no Batman knowledge other than the campy TV series with Adam West from my childhood, I have no idea who Lucius Fox is.

 

He's in all three of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight Trilogy films, played by the great Morgan Freeman. He's Batman's tech expert in those.

 

Nygma couldn't resist with the clue, could he? And neither could Oswald properly pitting Maroni and Falcone against one another,

 

 

The Riddler and the Penguin are easily the most interesting characters on the show-and both played extremely well. I expect that we'll all be impressed with "The Joker" when he makes his reappearance. The one thing this show does to perfection is the recurring villains.

[APSimpson]

She is a violent crime survivor. She was threatened with immediate death several times. She was a prisoner in an apartment designed to be sound- and escape-proof. To call her evil or a villain is to victim-blame.

 

When told no ( to naming another victim), Barbara was told then she could die. Unless trying to stay alive is a major crime now, I can't get angry at her. Picking her parents was the least evil of the many choices she had at hand ( if she has any religious beliefs). Sending Jason to powerful, well-known and guarded people would probably be discarded by Jason or take too long for his plans/her plans. (He wanted her to share his crimes; she was trying to buy herself or Jim some time.)

 

ITA that the writing for Barbara has been awful, but tonight, like last week, had some powerful moments for Barbara.

 

Right, I didn't mean to imply that I was victim-blaming on Barbara. When I said it was out of left field I meant I didn't see that coming, and from reading the internet in regard to this, more than one person was surprised by the choice of going to her parents. I figured if she chose them then she must have some dark tendency in regard to her parents (maybe secretly wishing they were dead) but yeah, any choice she made would be the wrong one, but she didn't have any choice, she was the victim here and I understand that.

 

Also, her behavior at the house was strange, like she was under mind-control or something. Maybe the Ogre drugged her water, who knows? But if not, then her behavior was weird, like she was walking around under a spell and told Jim to just go when the Ogre had the knife to her throat.

 

So, her strange behavior and the surprise of going to her parents made me think something was up with Barbara, but maybe I jumped to a conclusion in suggesting she would go down a dark path. I like Barbara a lot and wish the best for her character even though they haven't been kind to her.

[Philbert]

 

They are not just good superhero movies, but good genre-transcending movies.

 

Well, not the last one :(

[Lazlo]

I can understand people being disappointed by Barbara being so passive. What I don't understand is why some people seem to think she should have acted like some master criminal type and manipulated or overpowered the Ogre easily.

Barbara isn't Fish or Catwoman. The series has been pretty consistent in showing her to be self destructive and kind of dimwitted (and yes I believe some of that is intentional writing rather than poor writing.) Showing her suddenly be incredibly capable might have been fun but it would be a huge stretch.

Maybe I am being optimistic but I think we are heading for more a slow slide into outright villainy than simply flipping a switch. I think that ultimately Barbara could be very dangerous, but that is a road she has to take.

[marcee]

She was hung by her arms for an unknown but obviously uncomfortable length of time. She was exhausted, terrified and dehydrated and she gulped down what was apparently drugged water. Whatever was in the water made her calm, pliant, docile and easily manipulated. Plus, she appeared to be in shock. I loved her Barbie face when Jim walked in. But I in no way saw her as happy about the situation and I certainly do not think her complacency was an active choice.  No clue where they will go with her from here.

[Delphi]

Christ! What time does this show come on? Well last night it was eleven thirty due to news coverage but that seems appropriate for a show that's juggling hardcore domestic assault, disfigurement and off screen donkey shows accompanied by drills. But damn. That's a lot of PSA/content warnings for a single episode.

I loved the Ogre arc and I love that the show is trying to change the way they tell stories but every time they inch forward its like they listen to that One Tree Hill theme song about not being anything else than their trying to be. Did they have to shoot the guy? Do they have to kill everyone? I assume Blackgate has some space for prisoners.

I really don't miss Fish at all. I want to care about her and to a degree I did...about ten episodes ago. But honestly right now I'd settle for Fish giving up on her grandiose dreams and settle for being the manager at a clothing store in Keystone City. I just don't care. You don't need to come back, Oswald has got this overly ambitious mob war covered in similarly ill thought out ways.

Similarly I would have cared about this mob war if I didn't just endure a string of episodes involving The Penguin learn the in and outs of running a sketchy nightclub. It feels thrown in just as quickly as the Arkham storyline was forgotten. What ever happened to Arkham? Is Barbara going to be institutionalized for summer break while she recovers from some sort of Stockholm Induced trauma? That might be interesting, actually. Writers, do that. Erin continues to do great work when they actually give her halfway decent material to work with. I have no doubts that she could play mental patient.

Yay! Mr. Lucius Fox, good to see you sir. Thanks for saving Bruce from some impromptu death, sure was nice of you. See you in season two!

Oh, Bruce. You're adorable wanting to go with Alfred. You kind of threw your equally adorable girlfriend under the train. I loved Bruce's standoff with the executive though. I loved that Selina and Bruce aren't quite as slick and capable as they think they are. Training takes time.

The amount of shade Bruce threw with that last look at Bunderslaw was very impressive. I didn't master that kind of glare until I was in my late teens.

I also like that both Lucius and Alfred immediately stood up for Thomas Wayne.

I think honestly this final string of episodes would have benefited from being earlier in the season and that some of the standalone episodes should have been discarded. At this point it doesn't feel like enough time to wrap things up.

I'm ready for the second season though and I've really enjoyed this awesome, if not bumpy, first one.

[Sakura12]

In Chicago, Gotham's on at 7 pm.  They did have a parental warning before the episode, but still kids might want to a show about baby Batman. Maybe not so much of a 15 year old murdering people and animal sex. They'd think you were watching Game of Thrones if you just told someone what happens on this show. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[Jlina]

 

Whatever was in the water made her calm, pliant, docile and easily manipulated. Plus, she appeared to be in shock

 

While this is true and no, she isn't Fish - however, if I'd have had a choice as just a normal child of an alcoholic (so it wasn't all roses for sure)  I'd of easily chose to let him kill me than pick someone else especially my parents.  When my father died I was 28 and spent quite a while wishing it had been me so I wouldn't have had to be living through this.

 

IMO, that's not a victim nor Stockholm syndrome - she's twisted from the get go and the guy was right about that.

 

No amount of torture would have had me chose to kill someone else and I would have fought to kill first or do some damage.  It would only be understandable to a normal person if she didn't mean it and was trying to buy time for Jim to show up.  And who kills 2 for 1?

 

It all adds up to mentally broken.  The biggest proof of this in show terms is the fact that - d'uh - she slept with the guy after seeing his little shop of horrors.  Then suddenly became a blonde bimbo - sadly. 

 

And....no way I'd of drank the water period.  I'd of peed first and drank that; although being strung up by your arms really is torture.  Had she just played the guy even that wouldn't have happened. The previous girl figured out how to live for months, she didn't have to spit in his face.   She has no filters, is an addict and probably was mentally broke way before this, and I think we were to take it killing her parents was something she wanted, just not for Jim to find out.

 

It works out in a comic book universe but calling her a real life victim who deserves sympathy and support doesn't seem at all plausible or authentic to me.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Jlina

[HalcyonDays]

No amount of torture would have had me chose to kill someone else and I would have fought to kill first or do some damage.  It would only be understandable to a normal person if she didn't mean it and was trying to buy time for Jim to show up.

 

What I really expected was a bit of manipulation on her part, so this episode disappointed me by turning Barbara into a Damsel in Distress again.

 

I realize it's a terrifying situation (that I've never been in, thank god, so it's just me flapping my naive gums but...), but I couldn't help but think that when the Ogre was asking her who to pick, she could have stalled and said, let me think about it. She is good at manipulating men, so why not manipulate the Ogre in this case too. He kept saying 'I love you, I won't kill you", so she could have played on that fact, that emotion a bit, got him to get his guard down, or at least let her get some clothes, some food, a weapon or something, and take the time to make the decision.

 

And with the water - duh, of course it was drugged.

 

Instead, she was weeping and weak the entire time, and that bothered me. Be calculating. THINK, don't react. This guy is a insane killer, so I would have loved to have seen Barbara initially scared (completely understandable) and then realize she could play him and DO IT. Play him, manipulate him like we had hints that she could do the previous episode. Instead, she was just a tool to the male characters end game/angst. And this episode did that to all of the woman - Leigh appeared at the beginning and the end of the episode, as a reason for Jim to be determined, and as a nursemaid to patch his hand. All Kringle could do was read a letter, get weepy/angry and catch Nygma in the act. That's it.

 

I think I basically wanted to see a young!guppie Barbara do a little bit of "Fish Mooney", and take matters into her own hand. Fish Mooney may be larger than life/a caricature, but she does NOT let any man in power (well, anyone) get the upper hand. She is always one step ahead, thinking of her next moves, and Barbara could have been shown to do a bit of that, at least. JMO.

[blackwing]

I think I missed a reference in the show.  Who was supposed to be the anvil and who is supposed to be the hammer?  Maroni and Falcone?  Is it just a different way of saying "caught between a rock and a hard place"?

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, why is Barbara still here? 

 

I mean, I don't hate her, I think she has the potential to be an interesting, complex character, but I don't get her purpose. They don't have to kill her, just have to her leave town until she has some point again. Her main purpose in the show is "Jim`s love interest", and now he is 100% with Lee, who are a much better, more popular couple. It does not seem like she has any other real purpose, besides her connection to Selina, I guess. I thought after last week, they would have Barbara turn into a villain, but now? I guess they could still go that way, but why? This show has a million villains already, we don't need another one! I`m not even talking about liking the character or not, as I have actually kind of warmed to her lately, but she serves basically no purpose in the narrative anymore. 

[Delphi]

I think I missed a reference in the show. Who was supposed to be the anvil and who is supposed to be the hammer? Maroni and Falcone? Is it just a different way of saying "caught between a rock and a hard place"?

I think figuratively Bruce had an anvil dropped on him in regards to his father's secrets. While Edward literally smashed a skull with a hammer.

[Lazlo]

She is good at manipulating men, so why not manipulate the Ogre in this case too.

 

Is she?

 

She thinks she is but i don't think we've seen any evidence that she actually has those skills. In fact when she made her 'your looks can be a weapon' speech to Selina, Catgirl mocked her and left her speechless.

 

Again I understand why people might want to see Barbara have been more proactive but honestly the show has never shown her to have level of cunning. She isn't a younger, blonder Fish Mooney so I don't think it would be reasonable to see her suddenly channel a super smart femme fatale. She might get there eventually but not immediately.

[Snookums]

The writers have a real problem with how they write their female characters.

 

 They do indeed. And this is it.

 

Could your Strong Female Character be seamlessly replaced with a floor lamp with some useful information written on it to help a male hero?

 

It's Strong Female Character Sydrome, and Gotham has it in SPADES. It's set four different women up so far to be potentially interesting characters: Barbara, Lee, Kris and Fish--and of those four, only Fish has had anything to do, or a scrap of her own agency.

 

Of the other three, Lee is an enigma--sorry, Ed--whose resume is perfect--Beautiful! Brainy! Brave! But her actual function on the show? Pop up whenever Jim needs somebody to play Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys with him, get scared by a cat while leaving her window open while she takes a bath, and smilingly assure him that no matter what, she trusts and believes in him. Beep. She doesn't wander into her own workspace at any point to say "Hey Ed, what's up with the corpse?" She doesn't seem to work at all unless Jim and Harvey need a question answered, or a temp Damsel In Distress. Monica acts juuuuust enigmatic enough at times  that if the script requires her to go bad or be a plant it won't be totally unbelievable, but that's not enough.

 

As for Barbara and Kris? Well. I really thought Kris was going the Secret Villain Hiding In Plain Sight route--she played her cards pretty close and canny and her entire storyline was such a lurching Frankenstein Monster of cliche pastiche I figured it had to be a coverup for something else, but nope. She's just a dingus who can't get anybody to care about her being stalked in the workplace and dates abusive a-holes. That's it. She's only on the show to be an Obsession Mirror for the important character, Ed Nygma. 

 

And Barbara--for fuck's sake, This actress has been given the shortest end of the shortest stick in modern TV. As I've said many times before, she's an Idiot Sponge--there to absorb the moronic elements of the plot and then get squeezed over a scene so the story can move forward. Everything they gave her could have been the core of a real character with its own life if she'd been allowed to play something--Jim's secret shadow well of information among the elite, messed up spiraling drug addict, taker-in of street rat  gals. Instead she was turned into a See N' Say toy, with the plastic arrow spinning randomly for each setup as needed. "What does the Druggie Barbara Say?" *SOUND OF THROWN EXPENSIVE WHISKEY GLASS* 

 

It's one thing for a small part to not be drenched in meaning and backstory. But when every single female on a show with more then six lines is either a lectern with Plot Points propped up on it, like the captain, or dragged through the most boring storyline possible in order to set up a male villain, like Kris? Or decorated with "Strong Female" props and then stood in the corner until needed like Lee? Or simply thrown around like an old Barbie doll so Jim can be all tortured?

 

Something is wrong.