S01.E10: Sins Of The Father

[Scarlett45]

Previously, Jamal has said that he slept with Olivia once, which his ex pointed out was all that it took. It sounds like Olivia was having sex with Lucious in the same time frame, just far more regularly.

But if Olivia agreed to marry Jamal to serve as a cover for her pregnancy, then she would know he wasn't the father. But perhaps I am over thinking this.

[Dejana]

How on earth would that flashback have been in the 90's?  Lola's only four or five years old.  Jamal supposedly married Olivia at 18.  And he looked to be around six or seven years old when Cookie went to prison for 17 years.  That would make Jamal somewhere around 23 or 24 now, so the timeline of his possibly (though not likely) being the father could conceivably work.  The flashback would have been around 2008/2009 or so.

 

I don't think it wasn't actually supposed to be the 1990s; the clothes/hair were "off" for 2008-2009, especially little Hakeem (who looked about 8 or so in the flashback, but maybe he was supposed to be 10-11 and just on the smaller side) having the hi-top fade. That style didn't make a comeback with his generation until the 2010s sometime. Olivia's look in the flashback also reminded me of someone from a mid-90s video. The wardrobe/hair department on the show seem to be very fond of retro looks, so maybe it's just that.

[SimoneS]

Jamal's fro in the flashback was hilarious.

[Artsda]

They need to confirm who is uncle and who is daddy. Leaving Lola out there unsure and the family unsure doesn't make sense.

[Racj82]

I don't want any show to do anything except be true to their vision. I also don't want any show being preoccupied with representing a whole group of people. People will think what they want about black people or whoever. With the bipolar storyline this week, lucious and his homophobia, everything that is done and said are authentic to the characters they carved out. I had no problem with the way cookie was with Andre. She is just struggling to figure out what is going on. It's typical of cookie to first lash out at others and then take a step back. She's been that way the whole time.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Racj82

[Percysowner]

Well, for all the IPO has been the starting point for this show, I don't think it has any intention of talking about how companies actually work. That said, Lucious has a Board of Directors and Andre is the CFO. I THINK that Empire is a private company, which means that the Board and Lucious do own stock in Empire, but they do not trade it publicly i.e. it isn't being sold of the stock market. In this case there is a good chance that Andre, as CFO and a member of the Board DOES own stock in the privately held company Empire. It is possible that Jamal and Hakeem also have shares. Now that Andre, Vernon and Lucious are going public to raise money via the IPO, the current share holders needed to agree how to handle the share they currently own, how many shares to sell on the market and how the new public shares will be divided. Andre had to sign off on the deal, that was why Rhonda had his power of attorney. It sounded like Lucious said this is how we will arrange things and it was agreed by Lucious and the Board and Andre and Hakeem and Jamal that the sons would get a certain kind of share and a certain amount of each share. Lucious just thought he could change the arrangements, the kids would sign off on it and he'd get what he wanted. Andre might well have let it slip through the cracks since he hadn't fully recovered. But Rhonda was sharp enough to read before she signed. The fact that Rhonda HAD to sign for Andre says to me that at least for Andre, Lucious had made arrangement. Rhonda was actually being pretty decent because she honestly seemed appalled that he was cutting out Hakeem and Jamal as well as Andre.

 

Note: I'm not a lawyer, but I know a little about corporations. Any real lawyers can correct me.

[kia112]

The "Lola" song was the first one that I wanted to buy from the show.  Love it.

 

That scene with Jennifer Hudson getting between Andre's legs and putting her head on his was super weird.  I wouldn't want to pray with anyone who did that to me, and I am a Christian.

 

Really liked one of Hakeem's poses.  I think he was saluting in profile.  Super cute.

[Racj82]

They need to confirm who is uncle and who is daddy. Leaving Lola out there unsure and the family unsure doesn't make sense.

I'm not understanding where the confusion keeps coming from with lola. All I took Olivia last words as was her saying that you could raise Lola with me. He could still be her dad with actually being her bio dad.

[Artsda]

I'm not understanding where the confusion keeps coming from with lola. All I took Olivia last words as was her saying that you could raise Lola with me. He could still be her dad with actually being her bio dad.

She slept with both Jamal and Lucious around the same time, unless she did a DNA test she can't know for sure.

[Actionmage]

He could still be her dad with actually being her bio dad.

 

That is how I read the scene  too. Especially after Jamal and Lola bonded and he did work to keep her safe from the scary bird.

 

Also, I think Raven-Symone did a great job as Olivia. Even drugged-up Uncle Vernon picked up what Olivia was signaling.

 

I think Vernon just didn't care about the potential danger.  Or possibly, he thought it was time for Lucious to see that he's not some  lone wolf who made it on his own. Too bad it backfired on Vernon.  So I guess, I'm also praising Malik Yoba for a very hurt Vernon.  (Vernon is just so very different from MY's Fed, Bill Harken from Alphas! I know: Acting!)

Edited March 12, 2015 by Actionmage

[Rick Kitchen]

Man, that red and yellow dress Cookie was wearing when she kissed Malcolm!

And, uh, Malcolm, you do know what divorce means, don't you?  Cookie is not your commander's wife. But it's creepy to bug Cookie's phone.

Lola is so cute.

Way to cock block, Jamal.

"Lola don't need to be raised in that kind of lifestyle."  Shut up, Lucious.

"She got her drawers wrapped around my baby's neck."  LOL

Man, that riff from Suzanne Vega gets put behind Fallout Boy, and now Hakeem's song.

It's nice to see Hakeem and Jamal working together.

Love Camilla's smackdown of Lucious. But hated Lucious's lie to Hakeem about Camilla taking his money.

Does Lucious know nothing about Rhonda's background?  After ten years?

Love me some JHud. But she's going for it early, isn't she?

Malcolm let Reg come in with a gun?

Damn, baby reveal.

"I wish he would have shot you."  Yay, Cookie. "You left your baby to save her."  That was Cookie talking about herself.

Andre made it to say goodbye to Lola.

Did anybody sign the stock distribution plan?

#TeamMalkie (Cookcolm?)

 

Who was singing that rap over the next week previews?

 

[missbonnie]

 

I friggin' love Naomi Campbell. But why, if she didn't accept the money, is she leaving?

I don't know and really don't care, just as long as she's out the door.. I absolutely can not stand NC.

I must have missed the speculation that Lucious was the baby daddy, because that came way out of left field for me and it was definitely my OMG moment this week!

I have watched the trailer for next week in both slow-motion and at regular speed, and for the life of me, I can't even to begin to figure out wtf is going on.

[anonymiss]

Derek Luke "I failed my commander, I'm in love with you." 

That scene was straight up porno cheesy and I loved it.

 

And Hakeem to Yoko: "The older the berry the sweeter the fruit" LMAO

 

They really need to savour the next season.

[Rae Spellman]

The age difference between Hakeem and Jamal in the flashbacks seemed wrong. Somehow I had the impression that in 2015 Andre is about 27-28, Jamal about 23-24, and Hakeem about 18-19. Using that math, when Dre was at Penn, Jamal would have been in high school. And, five or six years ago when Jamal was 18 and married to Olivia, Hakeem who drinks and smokes now should have been about 12 or 13, not as young as the actor who played Hakeem in the flashback.

 

Someone mentioned Andre and Rhonda not being old enough to have been together 10 years. If Andre met Rhonda freshman year, at 17 or 18, they could have been together 10 years, and still been under 30. 

 

Olivia told Jamal that he could be Lola's father but probably wasn't. I took that to mean that Olivia doesn't actually know. Or care. Lucious and Olivia may both be assuming that Olivia got pregnant from one of the many times Olivia slept with Lucious rather than the one time she slept with Jamal without actually confirming it one way or the other. Maybe Lucious was just making sure that Jamal would have a reason not to raise Lola in that lifestyle. Oddly enough, in one of his homophobic rants a few episodes ago, Lucious told us/Jamal that he didn't bring any girl children into the world. I dunno. They owe it to Lola to figure out who her father is. The idea of 40 year old Lucious sleeping with his son's teen-aged wife is pretty creepy. 

 

On another note, what's to stop Camilla from calling Hakeem to tell him what happened? 

Edited March 12, 2015 by RaeSpellman

[coloradoqt]

 

 

 

How is it that Jennifer Hudson has an academy award? Every role I have seen her in, she is always one note and kinda

wooden. This continues to baffle me.

 

Jennifer Hudson won her academy award for the role in which she acted her ass off in Dream Girls. Her being one note and kinda wooden to you is, well you know is your opinion.

 

I don't really believe Lola is actually Lucious's child. He did not want her to live with Jamal and had it planned,Cookie, Lola and he were going to live ever after. I think he said that to get the attention of 'dumb ass" with the gun. I think Lola was probably his child.I can't see any of them letting her go so easily if she was a sister, or step-child.

[coloradoqt]

 

 

But it's creepy to bug Cookie's phone.

As the head of security he has a GPS on everyone's phone.Which is different from bugging.Remember this guy was special forces in the military they take their commanders, captains, etc very seriously.and as he said before Cookie is his Commander's woman, etc, divorce or not his job is to study people and he knew Lucious is not through with Cookie. Though his telling her she  wouldn't see him around much anymore etc,because he can't stop thinking about her could get him fired also. He had to know Cookie was not gonna let it go.

 

Man, that red and yellow dress Cookie was wearing when she kissed Malcolm!

That sweater dress was smoking hot! would have loved to see her shoes. I read who Cookie's stylist is, forgot her name, but as to be expected she is the same "color" as Cookie. Also read some of the furs belong to the wife of exec. wife, again,don't remember who, just know it wasn't Lee's.

 

But hated Lucious's lie to Hakeem about Camilla taking his money.

He didn't lie to Hakeem ,he said he offered her money , Hakeem ask did she take it? Lucious said "what do you think"? if he knew Camilla like he thought he did he would have responded I don't think she did.

[Minneapple]

Aw, I'm going to miss Lola. She was adorable. The scene where Hakeem and Jamal sang to her was so sweet I got a cavity.

Honestly I don't think it really matters if Lucious is Lola's father or not. The point is that it's a possibility, and yet another scummy thing Lucious did.

I loved Cookie calling Lucious on his bullshit.

I don't care that Naomi Campbell and her too-long bangs and bad acting are gone, but I feel bad for Hakeem.

Andre looked really confused when Jennifer Hudson asked him to pray instead of have sex, lol.

[rozen]

Even if Naomi's character is a gold digger, it is a way better long term investment to keep her hooks in Lucious's superstar son, and presumptive heir to the company, than take a cashout from Lucious. Especially since he's a conniving liar and would probably stop paying her the minute she was out of the country.

 

Lucifer is getting a little out of the pocket with Vernon. He could bury you dude, literally and figuratively. Andre and Vernon are the weight-bearing pillars holding the whole shitshow together, and he insists on continually alienating both of them. More and more obvious that Cookie and Bunky were the brains of the operation, because he is In.Sane.

 

Unpleasant or no, please don't pretend like we couldn't pull up half a dozen threads on lipstickalley/clutch/bhm with plenty of posters calling mental illness, homosexuality, etc white people shit. And I find both of Andre's parents venting their frustration on the other that is Rhonda completely believable. If this was a white-predominant cast, I could see the parents blaming the black girlfriend just as easily. Rhonda is the white analogue of Michaela from HTGAWM.

 

So Malcom's reaction to almost being leg-wrassled by Cookie is an earnest declaration of love? Geez, does anyone on this show take anything lightly? 

 

So knew that Lola wasn't Jamal's. I love how Lucious turned around expecting everyone to be like "omg, it's Superman!" and instead was greeted with various faces of utter disgust and contempt. I feel like Reggie was entranced just because Lucious revealed that he was an even bigger scumbag. "I mean, I terrorize my lady in a warped perception of love, but you cuckholded your own son? Man, that's messed up." Hakeem was such a big dork singing Lola to sleep. Lucious is doing a terrible job of molding him in his image. The minute he's outside of Lucious's range, he pops back to being an honest human being. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by rozen

[photo fox]

Maybe I missed something in a flashback? (It's hard for me to keep the ladies straight because the hairstyles are so different, and the video cuts so fast.) But I didn't see or hear anything that definitively said that Lucious is Lola's father, or even that he slept with Olivia.

Jamal and Hakeem together were fantastic, as were the two of them with Lola. I wish they had never done the pissing on the restaurant floor scene in that earlier episode, because I have a hard time getting past that. But uncle Hakeem was totally adorable.

Lucious doesn't owe his kids anything, but I think Rhonda was right to be angry that he was reneging on his promises to them at the 11th hour. It seemed to me like Lucious was trying to take advantage of Andre's hospitalization, hoping that Rhonda wouldn't know enough to realize what was happening. Rhonda acted in good faith as Andre's power of attorney, trying to protect his interests. She went there expecting to sign one thing... she'd be a pretty crappy POA if she just blindly went along with such a huge change.

I'm really glad Cookie didn't take Lucious up on his offer. He treats your boys awfully, Cookie. Don't go back there.

[thuganomics85]

Missed the actual airing, but they already had it On Demand.  Thanks FOX or whoever is responsible for that!

 

Ha!  I can't believe!  OK, I can.  They totally went down the obvious "Lucious slept with Olivia, so Lola might actually be his!" route.  Oh, Empire.  You silly, awesome show.  I guess they really did leave it open that it's possible Lola could be his, Jamal's or even that Reggie fellow, but still.  Damage is totally done.

 

I don't know how many times I can say this, but, again, Lucious is the worst.  Any time I think he's topped out at being a dick, the man exceeds my expectations.  And, yet, I find myself still enjoying watching him on some levels.  He is almost fascinating on some levels.  Whenever someone calls him out on what he does, he rarely comes off defensive, but just confused.  Like he totally doesn't understand why people are getting upset.  Like he's thinking "Why is everyone so mad that I tried to change their stock options without telling them?"  How does someone become that delusional?  I think the best that sums it up was his final confrontation with Cookie, where he's basically simplifies things to "I made mistakes."  Right, Lucious.  Ignoring the obvious signs your oldest son is not well, abusing you middle son for daring to be born gay, and then let your youngest become spoiled and a disrespectful assholes to the point a broom was needed to knock sense into him, is mere "mistakes." Keep telling yourself that, buddy.  Loved that the list of people putting up with this is getting shorter.  Cookie.  Jamal.  Hakeem.  Even loved Rhonda finally snapping at him.  Empire might survive, but I think he's in for a rude awakening.

 

Surprised that we didn't get that much of Andre.  Wished they spent more time on it.  I'm assuming we're getting more of Jennifer Hudson's character in the finale. Seems they are going the spiritual route, but I totally don't blame Andre for thinking it was going somewhere else there for a second.  She didn't just have her hands on his legs, they were damn close to his thighs, I'm sure.

 

Not sure what to make of Camilla.  Sure, when Lucious laid out the facts, the signs point to being a gold-digger, but she sounded sincere.  I'm kind of rooting for the latter.

 

So, Vernon seems to have a vice in the form of cocaine, I'm assuming.  He sure was snorting something.  I understand Lucious was pissed about the whole coup thing, but maybe be careful about pissing the guy with the drug problem, who helped you cover-up a murder.

 

Ah, flashbacks.  The kind that do things like give Jamal a fro and Rhonda a braided ponytail, in order for us to "pretend" that the actors are totally ten or so years younger.  I don't care what show it is: that never gets old.

 

Yay, Cookie and Malcolm!  Even though it was so rushed, and that like about failing his "commander" and jumping straight into talking about "falling" for Cookie, was the most hilarious thing ever.  How Derek Luke said that with a straight face is beyond my thinking.  That is talent, right there.

 

So, next week is the end, but we're getting two hours!  And, I totally loved the over-blown spot for it.  All the close ups of the regulars giving everyone stink-eyes.  The dramatic horn from the Inception trailer.  The fights.  The parade of last minute guest stars (Snoop.... Lion now, right?)  Don't let me down, Empire.  Go big or go home.

Edited March 12, 2015 by thuganomics85

[Chicago Redshirt]

But if Olivia agreed to marry Jamal to serve as a cover for her pregnancy, then she would know he wasn't the father. But perhaps I am over thinking this.

The show seemed to imply/state if I'm remembering correctly that Lucious hooked up with Olivia only after the marriage, rationalizing it that Jamal wasn't getting his job done as a man, so SOMEBODY needed to step up. Rot in hell, Lucious.

 

On another note, what's to stop Camilla from calling Hakeem to tell him what happened? 

The notion that Lucious was going to either "take care of her" in the form of a payout or "take care of her" in the form of a mafia hit. You don't have your special-forces trained head of security show up to act as a chauffeur. It was an implicit threat. One which, as Camilla implies, only has any force while Lucious is alive.

[apollonia666]

Surprised that we didn't get that much of Andre.  Wished they spent more time on it.  I'm assuming we're getting more of Jennifer Hudson's character in the finale. Seems they are going the spiritual route, but I totally don't blame Andre for thinking it was going somewhere else there for a second.  She didn't just have her hands on his legs, they were damn close to his thighs, I'm sure.

I should probably re-watch to confirm, but when she locked the door right before cuddling up to Andre and asking him to pray, wasn't that a glass door?  Whether they were praying or playing, what's the point of locking a glass door when they're just going to do whatever on the floor a few steps away from it?!  

[aprilbabe]

I still don't understand why they just don't swab the baby's cheek. For all we know Lola may not be a Lyon at all.

[SailingBy]

The whole IPO thing? Lucious is pure evil - but I actually don't blame him for keeping the main shares to himself - it prevents a coup. He did build that company himself - he should keep the controlling shares. That's not uncommon.

I just hope the Wall Street Journal's IPO reporter keeps up his series dissecting each episode for real-world legal/financial plausibility. So far, while they get some things right, there is a lot about this IPO that could never happen that way for real. There are other corporate aspects that are implausible to the point of impossibility too, such as Anika apparently not having a non-competition clause in her contract. Even much less important people in much smaller companies have those, as a matter of course. But hey, then we wouldn't have drama, would we, just lawyers sending cease-and-desist letters. My favorite little tidbit so far: it would be legally nigh-impossible for Empire to serve its own champagne in any venues it owns, under what are known as tied house laws.

 

That dialogue felt like it came straight out of something a very old black person might have said - 30-40 years ago - not 17 years ago. That's what I mean.

I didn't mean it as an "agenda" as Lee has been fairly vocal about how a lot of what we're seeing is a reflection of his experiences as a gay man - so the way he's penned Lucious regarding that is very much on purpose and very much intended to send a message about homophobia in the black community. He's said that himself in interviews - so there's nothing "hidden" about it.

 

I'm glad someone else feels the same way. I felt compelled to comment on this in the thread about Jamal, for the first time, exactly because this timewarp aspect bugged me. It seems to me Lee Daniels is projecting his own experiences, as a now 55-year old, who also presumably grew up in a completely different family environment from the one Jamal grew up in, onto someone at least 30 years younger.

For that matter, Cookie's attitude towards gay men, as exemplified in her behavior towards Michael, also seems to come from some strange antediluvian place. Even if we suppose she got stuck in a timewarp of sorts when she went to jail: that would have been in 1997, the world wasn't that different back then, as I remember it.

 

And if he wasn't trying to pinpoint an issue with black fathers and homosexuality, then he wouldn't have both black gay men (one from Australia!) lamenting how their fathers are homophobic assholes.

 

Another one that bugged me. And I'm neither black, nor American, nor Australian. Associating homophobia with a certain skin pigmentation, regardless of completely different social contexts, is very strange indeed.

Edited March 12, 2015 by SailingBy

[Mrs OldManBalls]

ALS is going to have to get in line to kill Lucious.

 

It's going to have to be patient too because that is a long ass line. 

 

 

 

Finally what the hell happened to the notary?  She shows up, gets free food, stared at them during their fight, then left the room never to be seen again.  Wouldn't she have heard the gun shot and say "about the IPO, maybe we should hold off."

 

She probably went out the bathroom window first chance she had. None of them would have blamed her.

[Racj82]

I just hope the Wall Street Journal's IPO reporter keeps up his series dissecting each episode for real-world legal/financial plausibility. So far, while they get some things right, there is a lot about this IPO that could never happen that way for real. There are other corporate aspects that are implausible to the point of impossibility too, such as Anika apparently not having a non-competition clause in her contract. Even much less important people in much smaller companies have those, as a matter of course. But hey, then we wouldn't have drama, would we, just lawyers sending cease-and-desist letters. My favorite little tidbit so far: it would be legally nigh-impossible for Empire to serve its own champagne in any venues it owns, under what are known as tied house laws.

 

 

I'm glad someone else feels the same way. I felt compelled to comment on this in the thread about Jamal, for the first time, exactly because this timewarp aspect bugged me. It seems to me Lee Daniels is projecting his own experiences, as a now 55-year old, who also presumably grew up in a completely different family environment from the one Jamal grew up in, onto someone at least 30 years younger.

For that matter, Cookie's attitude towards gay men, as exemplified in her behavior towards Michael, also seems to come from some strange antediluvian place. Even if we suppose she got stuck in a timewarp of sorts when she went to jail: that would have been in 1997, the world wasn't that different back then, as I remember it.

 

 

Another one that bugged me. And I'm neither black, nor American, nor Australian. Associating homophobia with a certain skin pigmentation, regardless of completely different social contexts, is very strange indeed.

No one is saying that homophpbia is a "black thing". There is a certain type of homophobia that is very well known with many black people. Again, when people say this, they aren't talking about all black people. As a black man, I've grown up in a culture where being openly hostile about gay people is just accepted. Hip Hop culture is rampant with dialogue and lyrics that are disrespectful and rude to gay people. It's just a open kind of hatred or at the very least, misunderstanding of homosexuality that many people don't seem to understand. Of course, homophobia (actually I hate saying that word because I don't think a lot of people are actually scared of gay people) is a world wide thing. It's just a different in a way that's hard to explain. Plus, there is the whole down low thing that, while yes many men are in the closet for different reasons, there are a alarming about of black males that keep that part of their sexuality hidden. I think a lot of it is out of fear of how they will be perceived by other black people. But, if you don't live in it, I don't think you can really understand it.

[Milz]

Oh Darn! I blinked one too many times and missed Mary J. Blige's guest appearance last night......

 

I'm in the minority because I don't think any Lyon is Lola's father. I think Lucious said he was Lola's dad in order to deflect Reg's attention off Jamal and off Cookie. It's a shame that Reg didn't kill Olivia and was in turn killed by Malcolm. That way Lola could stay on the show.

 

Anyhow, I liked the side glances Cookie and Lucious were giving each other when Hakeem sang. They were smiling at Hakeem but their glances were like "We need to get rid of this bitch ASAP!".

 

And Lucious having a secret door lock switch built into his desk----hilarious. It's something all the evil bad guys have.

 

Cookie and Malcolm: I am so happy Cookie has moved on. But I don't see this relationship with Malcolm going anywhere.

[lovinbob]

Malcolm let Reg come in with a gun?

Wasn't Malcolm gone at that point? He was driving Camilla away.

[aprilbabe]

 

I'm in the minority because I don't think any Lyon is Lola's father. I think Lucious said he was Lola's dad in order to deflect Reg's attention off Jamal and off Cookie. It's a shame that Reg didn't kill Olivia and was in turn killed by Malcolm. That way Lola could stay on the show.

 

Anyhow, I liked the side glances Cookie and Lucious were giving each other when Hakeem sang. They were smiling at Hakeem but their glances were like "We need to get rid of this bitch ASAP!".

 

Cookie and Malcolm: I am so happy Cookie has moved on. But I don't see this relationship with Malcolm going anywhere.

Again why have they not swabbed her cheek. The little girl deserves to know who her daddy is.

 

Those glances were awesome. Only Jamal was feeling the song

 

Yea no way Lucious is gonna let them live happily ever after. Either he's gonna sabatoge them or Malcolm gonna decide Cookie isn't worth the trouble.

[LydiaMoon1]

ALS is going to have to get in line to kill Lucious.

It's going to have to be patient too because that is a long ass line.

 

^^^^^^ Top comments.  We have our winners!

 

When Lew was telling Vernon his plans of marrying Cookie and raising Lola, I just shook my head.  I was thinking, “Ah, Bruh.  Lola is Jamal’s child and Cookie is her own woman.  You need to talk to grown folks before you start making all these plans."

 

I was so amused when his plans immediately started falling apart. 

 

Rhonda was my MVP tonight. While I won't disagree that Luscious is entitled to transfer his shares in the company the way he wants, I do feel if he's gonna renege on something, he let them know in advance. Especially, when one of the reasons is due to Andre's mental illness.

That whole sequence perfectly summed up why Lucifer is a horrible excuse for a human being, a fact about which he seems to have little recognition.  HE did Cookie wrong, but he wants to make things right with her by taking his sons’ shares and keeping all of his own.  I’m sure sharing or sacrificing anything of his never even crossed his mind.

 

I loved Cookie's little smile when Rhonda was yelling at Lucious.  Can they be friends?  I think they could be good friends.  Or at least allies.  Because I kind of want everyone to ally against Lucious and then Lucious can die alone in his big house that he made ALL BY HIMSELF!  It was nice for Lucious to confess some of his sins but I still feel like everyone should team up and take what Lucious loves the most.  The company that he made.  ALL BY HIMSELF!

If I had to hear ALL BY MYSELF one more time I was going to jump through my TV. Big Lew didn’t need anybody alright; he didn’t need the 400K Cookie made hustling and slinging, or Bunkie taking care of the boys all those years, or Vernon being his right hand man while covering up his many misdeeds and murders, or Andre working 14-hour days using his Penn State education.  Nope. Lew did it all by himself.  Ooookay.

 

#BringLolaBack

Edited March 12, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[Milz]

Again why have they not swabbed her cheek. The little girl deserves to know who her daddy is.

 

Those glances were awesome. Only Jamal was feeling the song

 

Yea no way Lucious is gonna let them live happily ever after. Either he's gonna sabatoge them or Malcolm gonna decide Cookie isn't worth the trouble.

 

I've been in the DNA test Lola camp since Olivia dropped her off. But if Lucious is Lola's father, why is he letting Olivia take her away, especially when Lucious has this fantasy of remarrying Cookie and the two of them raising Lola? That's why I think Lucious only said that to get Reg's attention. As sad as it is to say, Lucious is going to die from his ALS and a bullet might be faster and less painful. And even sadder to say, Reg had the opportunity to kill Jamal and Hakeem, which would have left Andre as the Heir of Empire. And Lucious thinks Andre is damaged goods due to his bipolar disorder (and that's probably another reason why Lucious doesn't like Rhonda: he thinks she's manipulating/taking advantage of Andre.)

 

If that "third wall" didn't exist, you would have seen my foot kick Lucious in the ass last night for not visiting Andre  and not attending that family meeting with his therapist and psychiatrist. There are times as a parent that you have to put your child first and your personal hang-ups second, third or 50th.

[kpw801]

Tonight was the first night where I can agree with the argument that the show moves a bit too fast for the plot to make sense.  Derek Luke "I failed my commander, I'm in love with you."  (blinks.)  Jamal already talking co parenting with the Aussie...then realizes it was Lucious' (I salute those who called that last month.) JHud getting WAY too touchy feely too fast.  Slow your roll, show.  (Though Jamal and Hakeem's lullaby was adorable.)

 

Lucious, Lucious, Lucious...STAHP.  You didn't build Empire on your own.  You bounce back and forth on Cookie.  He's not supportive of Jamal and even less of Andre.  Makes Rhonda feel worthless and idiotic when she's pretty damn smart.  ALS won't kill him, a family member will first. 

 

I strangely like Naomi Campbell on this.  Her constant blinking due to her very long bangs drives me nuts but she's turning out better than I thought she would be.

 

Finally what the hell happened to the notary?  She shows up, gets free food, stared at them during their fight, then left the room never to be seen again.  Wouldn't she have heard the gun shot and say "about the IPO, maybe we should hold off."

 

I do hope that the do close up some story lines next week.  I'm going to go nuts if they resolve very little.  But the amount of times I said "WHAT!" tonight made me realize that I'm going to miss this show when it goes on hiatus.

I agree I didn't like the way they used dialogue to establish a lot of the stories narrative.  It was like some kind of Shakespeare soliloquy when Big L was vomiting up all his confessions about impregnating the wife of his gay son because he took advantage and she was feeling unloved.  I think the way things are nowadays takes away from the color and drama of a series.  We should have been able to see some of this happen but with limits on episodes...  That was just surreal.

[Neurochick]

Cookie's dialogue in the beginning about how "bi-polar" was about white people really bothered me. It felt really dated - I supposed they were going for Cookie being stuck in the past 17 years ago where this kind of attitude was prevalent - but I always felt it was more prevalent among the much older people in the black community. That's how it always felt to me growing up.

 

I just found her reaction too heavy handed and it just seemed like yet another slap at black folks from Lee Daniels/Danny Strong - painting the community with a rather unfair brush. Yes, the community was slow in recognizing things like this as problems that need psychiatric help (in addition to or without Jesus - depending on your faith beliefs) and there are issues in hip hop with homosexuality, but the show sometimes feels like it's in some kind of time warp with the heavy handedness of it.

 

 

To me it didn't feel heavy handed.  I'm 55 and I know people younger than myself who still think that mental illness and homosexuality is something that came from white people; and the scary thing is a lot of those folks have college degrees.  Many people believe what their parents and grandparents believed, not as many, but a lot do.  I know a lot of black women, married to men who aren't black, who have to deal with nonsense from other black people, and many of those people are young people.  So, to me Daniels is pointing out the elephant in the living room.   

 

Cookie had no idea that Andre was bi-polar, she was in jail at that time.  Lucious knew, but didn't want to admit it to himself, maybe he felt that if it came out he had a child that was bi-polar, it would mess with the image he wanted to create, that of a "Lion."  To may people, mental illness is seen as a weakness, something that you can control.  A lot of people don't get that mental illness is an illness, the same way ALS is an illness, something you cannot control getting.  

 

Also, we're not 100% sure who is Lola's dad.  My impression was that Olivia had sex with Jamal, maybe once or twice, but slept with Lucious more than that; she she assumed the baby was Lucious'.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Neurochick

[Primetimer]

No wonder this Empire episode is called "Sins of the Father"!

Read the story

[kdm07]

I DO NOT LIKE LUCIOUS. 

 

I thought my dislike for him couldn't get any worse but last night's episode was the absolute limit for me. A fatal disease may be too good for this man.

[Malbec]

Empire: the show that makes you cheer for ALS.  Who knew!

[drivethroo]

 

Cookie's dialogue in the beginning about how "bi-polar" was about white people really bothered me. It felt really dated - I supposed they were going for Cookie being stuck in the past 17 years ago where this kind of attitude was prevalent - but I always felt it was more prevalent among the much older people in the black community. That's how it always felt to me growing up.

 

A LOT of black people still think of mental illness, therapy, etc as white people stuff.  That's not some "old black people from back in the day" stuff, this attitude is prevalent NOW.  Black people in the hood are not going to weekly therapy sessions, they're not going to counseling.  A lot of people are self medicating or told by their families to just pray it away.

 

I don't think Luscious is the father because I can't see him letting Olivia and Lola go away.  I think he just said that.  I don't doubt he slept with Olivia but I don't think Luscious is the daddy.  A DNA test would prove Jamal isn't the daddy but I think it would also prove Luscious wasn't, either.

 

Did Rhonda say she and Andre had been married for 10 years or together for ten years?  Because if both Andre & Rhonda entered college at 17 (late birthdays) and got together freshman year, they absolutely could've been college sweethearts and together for 10 years at 27 years old.

[Mozelle]

I honest to God busted out laughing when he said that.  That might be the goofiest, soapiest bit of dialogue in this whole show.  That said, I am fully on board with Cookie going with Malcolm over that rat bastard Lucious.

 

I enjoyed Rhonda calling Lucious out on cheating ALL of his sons, Camilla calling Lucious out, Cookie calling Lucious out...  this was a good episode.

 

Hakeem trying to bust out "Drip Drop" as a bedtime song for Lola was hilarious.  I have made such a 180 on him since the start of this show.

 

Right! Like, you're tryna make the girl go to sleep, right? A rap lullaby likely won't accomplish that, although "Drip Drop" would... Also, Lola is too precious for words. Like, my ovaries start to ache when she's on screen.

 

So, Hakeem's songs always have me dying. I thought I couldn't stand "Drip Drop" ("drip dripetty drop"), but then he busts out with a song that has the line, "The older the berry, the sweeter the juice." Because, of course, a woman always wants to be reminded of how much older than her boo she is. 

 

Lastly, I'm all the way here for Cookie and Malcolm. I luh me some Derek Luke. His episodes on The Americans in the first season were among my top favorites. So, when he came into Cookie's office all contrite but lusty, I nodded my head. Get you some love, Malcolm! Get you some, Cookie! 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Mozelle

[Milz]

 

Did Rhonda say she and Andre had been married for 10 years or together for ten years?  Because if both Andre & Rhonda entered college at 17 (late birthdays) and got together freshman year, they absolutely could've been college sweethearts and together for 10 years at 27 years old.

 

She said she and Andre have been together for 10 years. Whether that "together" includes dating or not, it wasn't made known.

[TVHappy9463]

Luscious is just horrible on top of horrible, and I like it! They aren't' even trying to redeem him, it reminds me of J.R.  As usual Taraji killed it, between the scene in the hospital and the later at the IPO signing, her reaction shots are gold, and when she is not doing the "Cookie thing", her subtlety as actress really shines thru. It's going to be a tough Emmy night between her and Viola.  

Hakeem and Jamal singing to Lola was so sweet! Loved Rhonda telling Luscious off, they are giving this character more depth and I like it. The celebrity guest shots are distracting, Jennifer Hudson as music therapist, What?  On the other hand the Mary J. Blige guest shot worked, being at a party and all.  

I have no idea what is going to happen in the finale. Producers always oversell and claim "game changing", we will have to see.

[SimoneS]

My heart broke for Olivia when she pleaded with Jamal to help her. How many abused women have made plea? Like so many others, I thought Olivia was initially after money and was then confused that she left Lola, now we know why. I admire her courage to protect her daughter by leaving her with Lucious and then, taking that moment to ask Jamal for help.

 

In her final scene, Olivia confirmed that Lucious was most likely Lola's biological father as he admitted to Reggie. I don't think that Lucious was interested in being Lola's father without Cookie in the role of mother so he let her go with Olivia. Even if Jamal is her father, he isn't going to take her from Olivia. The show is letting this story lie dormant for the time being. I expect it will come back up again.

 

I did love Cookie telling Lucious about Camilla's drawers around Hakeem's neck and how they were looking at each other annoyed during his performance. 

Edited March 12, 2015 by SimoneS

[Milz]

So, Hakeem's songs always have me dying. I thought I couldn't stand "Drip Drop" ("drip dripetty drop"), but then he busts out with a song that has the line, "The older the berry, the sweeter the juice." Because, of course, a woman always wants to be reminded of how much older than her boo she is. 

 

I was WTFing with those lyrics too!

[mtlchick]

 

Cookie's dialogue in the beginning about how "bi-polar" was about white people really bothered me. It felt really dated - I supposed they were going for Cookie being stuck in the past 17 years ago where this kind of attitude was prevalent - but I always felt it was more prevalent among the much older people in the black community.

 

I think it was more because 1) it was coming from Rhonda and 2) it was her own son.  His brothers didn't come out to say "Andre has a problem, Mom."  More to the point, we have a day that is sponsored by a telecommunications company in Canada call "Let's Talk" to discuss mental illness to drive the point home that it's something people don't want to talk about no matter who or what they are.  I think she just didn't want to believe it until Andre flat out said that he is bi polar.  Which is better than Lucious knowing and not being supportive.

[Eolivet]

I'm in the minority because I don't think any Lyon is Lola's father. I think Lucious said he was Lola's dad in order to deflect Reg's attention off Jamal and off Cookie. It's a shame that Reg didn't kill Olivia and was in turn killed by Malcolm. That way Lola could stay on the show.

 

Anyhow, I liked the side glances Cookie and Lucious were giving each other when Hakeem sang. They were smiling at Hakeem but their glances were like "We need to get rid of this bitch ASAP!".

 

I didn't like this episode as much as the others last night, but thinking about it now, it was a pretty layered episode.

 

I feel like the show made it clear that it doesn't matter who Lola's father is -- the Lyon family has "claimed" her as one of their own, with all the rights and privileges (and disadvantages) therein. If Olivia needs support from the Lyons, she will get it. I thought that was the point of that scene.

 

I definitely didn't trust Camilla, so I was also glad to see her gone. I don't believe she was sincere, or at least I believe her intentions were less than pure, because she was clearly trying to separate Hakeem from his family -- the bad (Lucious) and the good (Cookie and especially Jamal). I don't think she was purely using him, but she was the one who pushed him to want the last verse of the family song, and -- unlike someone like Rhonda -- seemed to have no career of her own outside "managing" Hakeem. Plus, as Cookie so eloquently put it before, "It's family business."

 

Lucious is a terrible person, but I couldn't help but cringe and feel an ounce of pity for his twisted definition of love. He's like a kid: Cookie wants part of the company and a daughter, so I'll give her part of the company and a daughter and she'll love me again. Yikes.

 

I love how Jamal is the go-to Shakespearian reference guy. He was the only person to relate Lucious' plan to have one of three sons take over the company as being from "King Lear," and he clearly knew his "Antony and Cleopatra." I also love Jamal's willingness to chair-dance to every song he hears, no matter how terrible. His love of music is truly infectious.

 

(I also totally did not get that the lady in the blonde wig that wasn't Mary J. Blige was Olivia in the flashback scene. Wow. That wig and the lipstick aged her 10 years!)

[mtlchick]

 

That wig and the lipstick aged her 10 years!)

 

That's how Raven's hair currently looks like.

[tennisgurl]

 

So, Hakeem's songs always have me dying.

I know right? The lyrics are just so ridiculous, they used to make me cringe, but now I just find them weirdly endearing. Like, whenever he pulls out his ridiculous "cool" lyrics, I just want to pat Hakeem on the head. 

 

The ALS isn't going to kill Lucius, its going to be a Murder on the Orient Express thing where all of his family/the people he`s pissed off file into his room while he`s sleeping, and take turns stabbing him.

 

Please don't get rid of Lola! She`s one of the cutest kids on TV right now!  

[politichick]

I have personally seen many families (of different racial, cultural, and religious backgrounds) vehemently deny the reality of what was happening with their family member regarding mental illness. For some it was grounded in cultural beliefs, for some religious doctrine, and for some a personal belief that mental health issues are a sign of personal weakness and THAT is just not acceptable. I think that Cookie's response is actually pretty accurate in that initial knee jerk denial. The good thing is that she was actually checking out more information to try and understand. That is a good first step in understanding. It is never easy to hear that someone you love has a difficult illness (of any kind). 

I agree. Plus, she probably has never met anyone before who'd been diagnosed with so serious a condition and bipolar disorder is likely not something she'd ever heard of before going to prison. Maybe she heard references to it on television in the last few years. There's still a lot of stuff she needs to catch up on. Someone mentioned her reaction was odd given how easily she accepted Jamal being gay. I would say she understands what gay is and while it might not be the ideal choice many parents would make for their children, mental illness is a whole lot heavier to deal with. I bet there are some struggling with children who are mentally ill who if given the choice would pick gay and healthy over mentally ill 

[laddibugg]

A LOT of black people still think of mental illness, therapy, etc as white people stuff.  That's not some "old black people from back in the day" stuff, this attitude is prevalent NOW.  Black people in the hood are not going to weekly therapy sessions, they're not going to counseling.  A lot of people are self medicating or told by their families to just pray it away.

 

 

Did Rhonda say she and Andre had been married for 10 years or together for ten years?  Because if both Andre & Rhonda entered college at 17 (late birthdays) and got together freshman year, they absolutely could've been college sweethearts and together for 10 years at 27 years old.

 Yep, there is a huge stigma in the black community WRT mental illness, and ESPECIALLY in young Black men. 

 

----

 

They've been TOGETHER for that time. Rhonda has never said married for that amount of time, she's always said 'with' or 'together'

[sarkygal]

Personal over share alert*

 

Lucious's reaction to random doctor in the living room diagnosing Andre from the flashback psychotic break were my relative's exact words when he heard his son had a mental illness less than 15 years ago. And Cookie's reaction were fairly similar to the mom's. Till today, they both live in denial of their son's condition and blame it on his weakness, being exposed to "white" ideas or alternately, the devil's influence on him. So that rang painfully true for me and I don't think it's an agenda to make black people into stereotypes or caricatures. I've seen over and over again how mental illness is stigmatized or ignored and I think Trai Byers (Andre) is doing a really good job.  *

 

I think the break-neck pacing of this show is one of it's weaker points. This episode felt rushed and too many plot points were dropped. Was Vernon's relapse triggered by Andre's breakdown (which he was notably absent for)? We got a hint of this when he was covering up Bunky's murder and talking to his NA sponsor, but his absence from last episode made his relapse less connected to the overall story. It was almost a blink and you miss it. I'd been waiting for the weight of being Lucious' cleanup man take a toll, especially seeing as Vernon genuinely cares for all the Lyon boys. I'm also curious about his relationship with Cookie. They all came up together and they never talk. Malik Yoba is doing some fine background work, but his character would be more fascinating if he was fleshed out a bit more.

 

Malcolm and Cookie hookup would probably have felt more natural without the dramatic declaration of love and the cheesetastic porn music. I also found it distasteful that their hookup happened while Cookie was studying up on BPD. This woman gave up 17 years for her boys; she just found out her eldest has a condition and she wants to learn and help. Cookie was devastated and confused in the hospital scene, so I can't buy that she'd be all up on Security man 2 seconds after that. The business landscape might have changed while she was locked up, but the core of Cookie's story is that her family that she gave it all up to protect disintegrated while she was gone. Allowing those nuances to breathe makes a more compelling character and better story-telling IMO.

 

As much as I love this show, I want the show runners to let the characters breathe a little. There's a wealth of gold in the premise of the story and the characters created and the pacing and continuity lapses are destroying that. Just my two cents. 

 

[CaughtOnTape]

Forgot to say  "See Lucious?  You just gotta coordinate." made me cry laughing.