S01.E10: Sins Of The Father

[leisawoo]

Just chiming in to say, I'm a bipolar white woman. I've cried when Andre portrayed it and watched Cookie and fam's reaction. Yeah, she hated it at first. But, I would have given anything to have had half the support Andre has. My husband, and children (now grown) have been and are my only support. My mother accepted my diagnosis, said thank God I now know why you act the way you do. To this dy, she avoids me like the plague. My sis would have been more supportive but had her own family. She now has als so this show kills me in many ways. But, I can't quit it.

[wanderingstar]

I forgot to mention one of the things I loved most about this episode:

 

Hakeem: Camilla says we're this generation's Anthony and Cleopatra.

 

Cookie: Chile...

Edited March 13, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[memememe76]

I don't have a problem with how the writers portrayed Cookie's suspicion/concern of Andre's bi-polar. To me, I thought when Cookie used "white", I think she was referring less about the mental illness, but the treatment of the mental illness--the music therapy, in particular. 

 

Oh gawd, I hope Vernon is still around, even with his demons. I like his way of deception, and I find his treatment of the boys the most admirable (even more so than Cookie's). I wish we see a Vernon/Andre scene, at some point. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by memememe76

[Black Knight]

For the record - my argument wasn't that Daniels' experience isn't legitimate. My argument is that he's projecting this as universal in the black community (the "oh to be the son of a black man" dialogue) and that's not okay. Neither is the treatment of mental illness. It may be prevalent in the black community - but it's not ONLY prevalent in the black community.

There is a difference and there's a nuance in what I've been saying on this thread about the homophobia and mental illness issues with respect to the black community, but I believe most posters have either ignored that nuance or just don't see it.

I'm concerned with how Daniels/Strong are portraying these issues as almost exclusive to the black community when it's not.

I understand your concern. Does it help to hear that this white woman (me) doesn't at all get the impression from Empire that these things are universal in the black community? Lucious is the only major character on this show expressing homophobia - everyone else in the family is supportive of Jamal and, when Jamal came out by singing a song to a 99.9% black audience, the audience didn't miss a beat when they heard his changed lyrics and continued to enthusiastically dance along. And while we heard Lucious complaining that artists might leave because of Jamal, what we saw onscreen was Jamal successfully wooing an extremely successful black artist to the Empire label partly because she loved what he did in coming out. So it's been Lucious and one reference to another homophobic parent who's not onscreen - frankly I forgot about it two seconds after it was said and didn't remember until it was brought up here. (And as a woman who loves women, homophobia is a big issue for me.)

 

And it's the same for the mental illness storyline: The only character I saw that stayed stubbornly unsupportive was Lucious. At the start of the episode Cookie was confused and lashing out, but the second she heard that he had actually received a diagnosis years earlier and that this wasn't his first breakdown, her attitude changed completely. She accepted the diagnosis and then we saw her researching bipolarism online to educate herself, which was wonderful. The rest of the family was shown to be supportive and not dismissive of Andre's diagnosis.

 

Lucious has been shown to be a horrible person in pretty much every way imaginable. I don't think that because he's homophobic it means the black community is homophobic, any more than I think because he's been shown cheating that all black people must be cheaters, or because he's been shown shooting a guy dead that all black people must be killers. I'm not looking to Lucious as a universal representation of anything. He's really loud and upfront about his biases, but that doesn't mean that I can't see that all the black people around him are consistently shown not to share those biases. So if we're talking about how the black community at large might be perceived thanks to characters on this show, I would say that all the black people I see being supportive of Jamal's sexuality and Andre's bipolarism far outweigh the one loud dude who's a villain and who they're all condemning. If I were going to extrapolate what I see on Empire to the black community at large, I walk away with a positive impression.

 

As for your point that these issues exist in all communities, not just the black community, that's very true. But I don't at all think the showrunners are trying to tell me that these biases are specific only to the black community. It's simply that this show happens to be 99.9% black and is being told 99.9% through black POVs. Rhonda is the only non-black regular character of any significance and she's still secondary and has had a couple of scenes at most that are her POV instead of Andre's. I'm not saying this as a complaint: I think it's a great thing that the Empire showrunners have been able to make this show through an entirely black lens instead of being forced to have a major white lead (or a whole white family) as the POV and lens through which the story is told, as Hollywood usually insists on. But this is the flip side of having the focus be entirely on black people. It's not that there isn't homophobia and misunderstanding of mental illnesses among white people or Chinese people or any other community one can name, but there are virtually no representatives of those communities on this show, especially in major roles - there's Rhonda as a regular secondary character, Michael was secondary for the episodes he was in before being written off...and then it's just a handful of other non-black characters in tertiary walk-on bits like a doctor here or a model there. So I don't think that because, e.g., homophobia isn't being shown in other communities on Empire it means that homophobia only exists in the black community - I get that it's that they can't show homophobia among other communities when there aren't any other communities on Empire.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Black Knight

[Dee]

I don't think, and I don't want to speak for everyone, that addressing the issues is the problem people are having with Lee and Danny's writing. It's adding unnecessary lines to the script to imply, or outright state, those problems are endemic to a community when, in fact, they're universal. The black father conversation between Ryan and Jamal immediately comes to mind as an example of this, it wasn't necessary for Ryan to have a homophobic black dad, and then for Jamal co-sign Ryan's comment that black fathers are inherently homophobic. That's crossing the line from acknowleding one's truth through art to engaging in Moynihan Report pathology.

 

Lee also does this when he perpetuates the absurd notion of the downlow when the downlow doesn't exist. Being closeted is not race-specific.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Dee

[coloradoqt]

 

but, I was surprised though Cookie said it was a white person thing, because from her, I just didn't expect it. Maybe it doesn

I know it may be hard for some of you to understand, but this is a show about black/african american people. So most of the talk is geared to that.,Not all blacks/african american, speak,think, act this way,but for this particular show they do. That what makes this show different from Dallas,Dynasty, etc. and I suspect its the reason this show is the most watched show on television in a long time in spite of it being  on FOX .

 

There are still black people that believe mental illness is a "white thing". Just like  a lot of black people believe suicide,fratricide,matricide, and mass,serial killings are"white  things". There are still black people that believe homosexuals are sinners. I don't know what most white people believe about these "things". but I'm sure its pretty much the same.One thing I do know is most people judge and are bias against things they fear or don't understand. 

 

This is still a TV show, people reading a script, people acting, so if actors do and say things that you think are not politically correct or necessarily right (in your opinion), its because from the writers, directors point of view this is the RIGHT way.

 

So sit back enjoy the acting,the way the actor make you love them or hate them, the way something shown make you want to tune in next week.or change the channel.

IMO if you do this you won't have time to think about how the director should have directed, etc.

 

I absolutely love this show, I think Lee Daniels is brilliant and I think everyone plays their part the way It SHOULD be played, for them, the directors and everyone who really matters. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by coloradoqt

[loveigniting]

I don't know how accurate African American's considering mental disorders a "white thing" is, but, I do know that too many Italian's, in my experience with that half of my nationality, still think of bipolar/therapy/mental illness as a "non-Italian thing"; unless of course you're Italian and have been swayed by others into thinking you need more than just to get a grip. But mostly, thankfully, it is heavily in the generation of my grandmothers/great aunts & uncles, where as the age group of the middle aged vary, a lot ranging from Getting It too thinking it's a real thing, but really overused and "an excuse" by some. 

 

I'm of South Asian descent and it's pretty much the same thing. There are people in my ethnic community of an older generation (I'm in my 20's) that do think that it's a western and a white people thing. They connect it to the luxury and privilege of growing up in a first world country. They say that there weren't anybody struggling with mental health issues in their poor communities where they had to struggle to put food on the table - so they do equate it to privilege in a weird way and they ignore that just because people didn't have the money or the luxury to think about their mental health in impoverished countries doesn't mean that they weren't struggling with those issues by themselves. My youngest uncle went undiagnosed for years and people would just say he's not right in the head when he had episodes. There was and still is a stigma to the idea of therapy and meds, even among older professionals and educated people tbh.

 

As for the show trying to indicate that these issues are specific to the black community, I'm not qualified to talk about that - but I can see where the conversation between Jamal and Ryan about black dads could irritate people regarding that issue. In any case, though this show has a majority African-American cast, it has shown that prejudices aren't specific to the black community. I really loved the short scene in 1.02 (?) where Cookie gets into a cab and the South Asian cab driver tries to wave her out with some remark about you people causing trouble and Cookie points that he's black like her, which I took to mean that his skin tone isn't that different from hers and, on a larger scale, he's still not white and will be marginalized, even if it's in a different way than Cookie. And, that anti-blackness (and colorism as well) does absolutely exist in South Asian and in non-black POC communities in general. It doesn't mean everybody of course, but it's prevalent.

 

On a lighter note:

 

Hakeem: Camilla says we're this generation's Anthony and Cleopatra.

 

LOL. I enjoy Hakeem so much rn. He does know that Antony and Cleopatra killed themselves, right? 

Edited March 13, 2015 by loveigniting

[Grace19]

The issue i have with the show runner is that he is turning jamal into a walking-agenda that reduces my enjoyment of the character. He's using jamal to prove that the gay man is as much a man as the straight man, this is not the problem, the problem is that he makes the character sometimes say and do things that dosent make sense just to prove a point. For example, when hakeem's friends attacked him and also when he confronted hakeem at his house, jamal kept refering to himself as "sissy". This made no sense to me, he normally used that word as a way of being sarcarstic when talking to his homophobic dad not his supportive brother. Then the writers made him hit his brother to prove that the sissy is a badass. Another WTF moment was last episode when he kept pushing his face into the gun. Why? To prove he is fearless? As far as we can see, jamal is not sucidal. He should be talking down the crazy guy not egging him on. In situations like this, people only act like jamal did if they had nothing to loose, or are trying to save a loved one like luscious did, usually people try to negotiate like hakeem did.

I love jamal, but mostly because i love the actor playing him. I enjoy jamal the most in scenes with louscious, lola and hakeem, and recently in scenes with andre and ryan. I understand that one of the issues the show is trying to tackle is homophobia, but they don't alway have to use jamal to prove a point, let the character be natural.

[Grace19]

Oh, and they better bring back Lola by any means necessary.

Oh, and they better bring back Lola by any means necessary.

[lovinbob]

I understand your concern. Does it help to hear that this white woman (me) doesn't at all get the impression from Empire that these things are universal in the black community?... 

 

If I were going to extrapolate what I see on Empire to the black community at large, I walk away with a positive impression. ...

 

I don't at all think the showrunners are trying to tell me that these biases are specific only to the black community. It's simply that this show happens to be 99.9% black and is being told 99.9% through black POVs. ... I think it's a great thing that the Empire showrunners have been able to make this show through an entirely black lens instead of being forced to have a major white lead (or a whole white family) as the POV and lens through which the story is told, as Hollywood usually insists on. ...

Amen to all of this. I agree with your whole post but didn't want to just copy and past the whole thing.

This show is showing diverse points of view from the black community. It's beyond refreshing to have African Americans represented not as a monolith, but as individuals with varying opinions and attitudes on a number of subjects.

[Milz]

Its fascinating to see these same issues play out in a different community than the one I grew up with. And not every white, rural community is the same as mine, just like not every black community is the same. I hope this show never starts making full on proclamations about life in the AA community, because I would hate to see people make proclamations about the world I grew up in. Things really have gotten better lately, partially because of increased awareness in the media. I can see both sides, really.   

 

I think it's refreshing. TV and movies have been "white-oriented" for decades and any social issues were seen within that context. I mean seriously, if you objectively watched tv from the 50s through the early 2000s, the message you'd come away with is that white people cheat on their spouses, white people are alcoholics (Sue Ellen Ewing, I'm looking at you), white people have children born with genetic disabilities (Corky on Life Goes On or Becky on Glee), white people struggle for parental approval/white people are disappointed with their children,  white people are single parents, white people scheme against their siblings, etc. For me, Empire isn't an indictment on the entire black community any more than  Dallas, All My Children, Family or Life Goes On were indictments on entire white community. In fact, I applaud Lee Daniels' attempt to  show how attitudes and reactions to these social issues transcend race, culture, ethnicity, and age: that people are, well, people.

 

[2AT]

The issue i have with the show runner is that he is turning jamal into a walking-agenda that reduces my enjoyment of the character. He's using jamal to prove that the gay man is as much a man as the straight man, this is not the problem, the problem is that he makes the character sometimes say and do things that dosent make sense just to prove a point. For example, when hakeem's friends attacked him and also when he confronted hakeem at his house, jamal kept refering to himself as "sissy". This made no sense to me, he normally used that word as a way of being sarcarstic when talking to his homophobic dad not his supportive brother. Then the writers made him hit his brother to prove that the sissy is a badass. Another WTF moment was last episode when he kept pushing his face into the gun. Why? To prove he is fearless? As far as we can see, jamal is not sucidal. He should be talking down the crazy guy not egging him on. In situations like this, people only act like jamal did if they had nothing to loose, or are trying to save a loved one like luscious did, usually people try to negotiate like hakeem did.

I love jamal, but mostly because i love the actor playing him. I enjoy jamal the most in scenes with louscious, lola and hakeem, and recently in scenes with andre and ryan. I understand that one of the issues the show is trying to tackle is homophobia, but they don't alway have to use jamal to prove a point, let the character be natural.

My take on this is that the writers are trying to show that at the end of the day, Lucious' rejection of Jamal is ironic (I hope that I am using that term correctly) because he is the son that is the most like him and the one who possesses all of the attributes that he is looking for in the future leader of Empire. The only thing holding back him back is lingering stereotypes about homosexuality. That tough behavior IS natural for Jamal and, based on past behavior, it made sense to see him standing down the gunman, not trying to buy his way out (like Hakeem and the watch) or cowering with Rhonda behind a chair. Just like it made sense for Cookie, the toughest member of the family to try to grab the gun.

[Raja]

 

That scene with Jennifer Hudson getting between Andre's legs and putting her head on his was super weird.  I wouldn't want to pray with anyone who did that to me, and I am a Christian.

 

 

Making us uncomfortable was the entire point of the scene. So far we have seen may sexual partners for the princes of the Empire Since people naturally move away from the sick  for the emotional impact they played it as the therapist was just going to be one more. .That the world has changed and interracial and inter gender relationships are now out in the open but the open expression of religion caused the character to check the locks first before showing love made it more powerful.

[lovinbob]

My take on this is that the writers are trying to show that at the end of the day, Lucious' rejection of Jamal is ironic (I hope that I am using that term correctly) because he is the son that is the most like him and the one who possesses all of the attributes that he is looking for in the future leader of Empire. The only thing holding back him back is lingering stereotypes about homosexuality. That tough behavior IS natural for Jamal and, based on past behavior, it made sense to see him standing down the gunman, not trying to buy his way out (like Hakeem and the watch) or cowering with Rhonda behind a chair. Just like it made sense for Cookie, the toughest member of the family to try to grab the gun.

I don't necessarily think that Jamal is supposed to be the hero of the story. I think Andre has a pretty strong claim to leadership of the company, because of his business background, and his talents are being rejected, perhaps in part because of his illness? (And also, because I believe Lucious is threatened by his strength and leadership abilities.)

 

To me the irony is that Lucious has created this competition and rivalry among the brothers, when wouldn't it make more sense to have them work together to lead Empire? Especially since they all seem to like each other, when their father isn't involved.

Edited March 13, 2015 by lovinbob

[megsara]

I really enjoyed this episode, it went by way too fast.  Though I do think they burn through plot way too quickly. 

 

I was pretty surprised that Lucious knew Camilla knew about his ALS and wasn't worried about it.  Did they show him blackmailing her to get her to leave?  That's what it seemed like, as why else would she go without the money?

 

Hakeem is so adorable, and I love him with Jamal.  I need more scenes with those two. 

 

Go on Cookie, get yours.  She's only been with Lucious (well, he's the only man she's been with, who knows what happened in prison), so good for her jumping on Malcolm. 

 

Besides the number of shares being diminshed, Andre's shares were converted to B (?) shares, which didn't have voting power.  I think that, more than the number, was the biggest deal.  I do believe Cookie deserves shares, more than Lucious, but it was slimy of him to just do it, no discussion.

 

The timeline of the flashback is really bothering me though.  It was, I assume, Andre's junior year in college (it being his 1st break), so he's around 21.  Jamal and Olivia are married (Andre calls her his sister in law), so Jamal is at least 18.  Hakeem in the flashback looks 10, max, but he's 19-20 now (I think that was mentioned, or least that he's not legal to drink, plus I think that would line up with how old he looked when Cookie was sent away, maybe?). Did they say how long Jamal and Olivia were married for?  She clearly got pregnant towards the very end of the marriage as the Lyons didn't know about it. Going from Hakeem, I feel like the flashback was 10 years ago, but given Lola's age, it probably wasn't more than 6?  I don't know why my suspension of disbelief is not working as it usually does.  

[bichonblitz]

I don't understand the purpose of Olvia, Lola and the boyfriend. That story line was not necessary at all. Then random boyfriend winds up in Lucious' house threatening to blow people away, gets shot and killed , and everybody is ok with Jamal not being the daddy. Kisses goodbye to Lola and life back to usual. Huh??? 

[Grace19]

I don't agree that hakeem offering his watch and money to save his brother means he dosen't have heart and is the kind of person that buys his way out of problems. I believe the three boys are all qualified to maybe run the company in the future, but none is there yet. I think the irony is that together they can exceed their parents expectation, but lucious is making them fight each other for it.

Jamal could still be the daddy. I believe they will revisit that story line, maybe in season 2 or 3.

[Milz]

RE: Fast pace or rushed plots. I think Lee Daniels and Danny Strong purposefully did this in the event Empire didn't get the ratings to get onto the fall schedule next season. This way, if the series was cancelled at any time, the core fan-base could get the DVDs or watch the rest of the series on a streaming service and get closure. Danny Strong played a minor character on Joss Whedon's Buffy The Vampire Slayer. So he would have learned from Whedon's critically acclaimed/cult favorite series (Firefly, Doll House) that the networks will drop a series no matter if the critics rave about it and/or it has a strong, but small, fan base: Nielsens ratings rule (unfortunately). And since Fox has become a major player, they're less willing to take chances on shows and give them a second season even if the ratings are iffy.

 

Anyhow, I'm happy Empire is doing well because I never liked the reality tv stuff and I was tired of crime dramas, forensic investigation dramas and medical dramas. I'm happy a good  old fashioned night time soap is on the air complete with a tub full of bubbles,  loofah brushes, and drippy,  soapy goodness.  And I'm waiting for everyone to kick Lucious' ass next season (or at least make an attempt to kick it) :-)

Edited March 13, 2015 by Milz

[Rae Spellman]

 

For me, Empire isn't an indictment on the entire black community any more than  Dallas, All My Children, Family or Life Goes On were indictments on entire white community. In fact, I applaud Lee Daniels' attempt to  show how attitudes and reactions to these social issues transcend race, culture, ethnicity, and age: that people are, well, people.

 

Except that while publicizing the show, Lee Daniels continues to make statements that indict black people. Fortunately, he isn't the only voice of the show.

 

On another note, I hope Vernon finds his way back from the drugs.

[damnman]

LOVE this show! This coming from a middle aged white woman. Sorry people, I must be colour blind because I don't see black or white I just see a really good show.

 

Someone up-thread mentioned about Andre being/not being on meds while he's in therapy.  After Michelle locked the door, she knelt down and asked him "are the meds not working?" and he looked down and shook his head (breaking my heart), that is when she grabbed his hands and started the prayer circle (which I found really weird btw).

 

Love to hate Lucious - THAT is acting!

 

Cookie absolutely cracks me up!

 

Lola is the cutest, and I meant cutest little girl ever!

 

Hakeem has really grown on me the last couple of episodes, the chemistry between him and Jamal is excellent, and that bedtime lullaby...

[Milz]

Except that while publicizing the show, Lee Daniels continues to make statements that indict black people. Fortunately, he isn't the only voice of the show.

 

On another note, I hope Vernon finds his way back from the drugs.

 

You speak from what you know. Again, I don't look at Empire  or the web series Anacostia (which is fabulously, super-soapy too) as indictments of the black community. I think these programs show that the only difference between people are their outward appearances: what's inside is the same regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, education level, etc.

[DrSparkles]

Listen. I can't even keep up with what's going on, but any show who has Naomi Campbell exiting in a huff, and doesn't have her chunk a cell phone at someone's head?! #missedopportunity

[Jazzy24]

Cookie continues to be awesome.

[Gigi43]

but, I was surprised though Cookie said it was a white person thing, because from her, I just didn't expect it. Maybe it doesn

 

    I know it may be hard for some of you to understand, but this is a show about black/african american people. So most of the talk is geared to that.,Not all blacks/african american, speak,think, act this way,but for this particular show they do. That what makes this show different from Dallas,Dynasty, etc. and I suspect its the reason this show is the most watched show on television in a long time in spite of it being  on FOX .

 

I don't know why it would be hard for me to "understand" or why you'd think I would need to have it explained that this is a show with a black cast, but I know that.  I did not say I don't expect anyone that's black to say that, I said specifically, Cookie, being who she is (or who I've seen her as), surprised me to have just that opinion at first on this specific topic. As I also said in that post, in part because it's an issue that a lot of women in prison today are being treated for various kinds of mental health disorders, prisons have women of all races, and Cookie just got out of jail, so to me it could have been interesting for that to come up somehow, I wouldn't have been surprised at all if she had said something like maybe society today is trying to medicate who doesn't act a certain way to make them fit a mold, or something. There are other views to have especially on the topic of mental disorders that can be based on a lot of things, a lot of life experiences, up bringings, ect and I thought it would have been a better fit to have Cookie say something beyond race not just because obviously there is more too her than just someone of a certain race, but she went through something the other characters haven't so why not use that.

 

 

RE: Fast pace or rushed plots. I think Lee Daniels and Danny Strong purposefully did this in the event Empire didn't get the ratings to get onto the fall schedule next season. This way, if the series was cancelled at any time, the core fan-base could get the DVDs or watch the rest of the series on a streaming service and get closure

 

 

A lot of first season show especially seem to be going this way lately. Sometimes it can be too rushed, but I for one have been let down enough times by cliff hanger short lived series' that's its not just fine with me, I really like that it seems writers are taking this into account.

 

 

I don't agree that hakeem offering his watch and money to save his brother means he dosen't have heart and is the kind of person that buys his way out of problems

 

 

Same here. That never even occured to me, I took it as sure he may like to walk around with a 30grand watch (like an idiot) but his brother's are worth more than that. It fit in nicely with the fact that he -and only he- took the time to actually go over to Jamal's apparentment after he came out, instead of just showing him support at the party or the next time he saw him. He really values his brothers.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Gigi43

[phoenics]

I know it may be hard for some of you to understand, but this is a show about black/african american people.

It was my post that you quoted there - and um, I do understand this because I'm black - and it's kinda obvious who the show is about...

Edited March 13, 2015 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Making us uncomfortable was the entire point of the scene. So far we have seen may sexual partners for the princes of the Empire Since people naturally move away from the sick  for the emotional impact they played it as the therapist was just going to be one more. .That the world has changed and interracial and inter gender relationships are now out in the open but the open expression of religion caused the character to check the locks first before showing love made it more powerful.

I don't think that's why the OP was uncomfortable with that scene. She was uncomfortable (and so was I - as a Christian) because the director/script had JHud's character literally position herself between a man's legs and get all up on him (so much so that Andre almost kissed her) to PRAY. That is beyond inappropriate and a horrible depiction of Christianity - anyone praying like that needs to fall back.

Unless Daniels plans on illustrating something nefarious in JHud's character - that she's manipulating Andre, the scene was overtly sexual for her to be only intending to pray.

[phoenics]

You speak from what you know. Again, I don't look at Empire  or the web series Anacostia (which is fabulously, super-soapy too) as indictments of the black community. I think these programs show that the only difference between people are their outward appearances: what's inside is the same regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, education level, etc.

I agree that's how it should be on this show - but the devil really is in the details... Look at how Scandal handled the unarmed black teen being shot - Shonda presented multiple sides of the equation and worked really hard to give each one voice.

I say this partly from experience - when I write my feelings into a piece of fiction sometimes I can over-index on my own issues and it shows up in a bad way in the writing - it's usually off-balance and tends to be simplistic and has no diversity of viewpoint - and the result of that is writing that tends to indict entire populations rather than have any nuance whatsoever.

Daniels comments in the press illustrate that he's very concerned with these issues (as he should be), but I think that - as another poster said - sometimes he drops in PSA dialogue that takes you out of the scene because characters stop sounding like themselves and start sounding like a PSA announcement...

[coloradoqt]

 

I said specifically, Cookie, being who she is (or who I've seen her as), surprised me to have just that opinion at first on this specific topic.

My point is,this is what Cookie, being Cookie would say. She did not say what you thought she should have said. What she said is not foreign, its been said before. I don't imagine Cookie spent her time in prison learning about other women prisoner's mental  health issues,  so that she would react to her son being bi-polar differently.

. I'm betting more people related to what she said than not. So the director, whomever (since TPH said they often change words and the director allow them to) apparently liked what she said.

 

I'm just saying I love this show, no one can do or say anything wrong.

I don't know how I would feel about it if anything was different (that's just me, and as I say IMO)

I guess I take criticism of this show too personal.

 

This show is produced,by African Americans, there are more blacks behind the camera, no one had ever heard of Yazz outside of Philadelphia ,both Michael and Anika are well known actors in their respective countries, each of the actors are supreme in their craft, yet you've never seen most of them in any recognizable way.

It is the highest rated show Fox has ever had other than "House" .House was a doctor who was addicted (not the way anyone would expect a doctor to be).

IMO it is because of comments, action etc of Cookie and her castmates .

I'm saying this is the most accurate  portrayals of African Americans ,NOT all African Americans.

And IMO it should be viewed, enjoyed, entertained with these things in mind. jus' sayin'.

[announcergirl]

And to the earlier speculation of if Lucious knew Andre was bi-polar before; it was clear to me he did when in the conference room he ordered someone to call Andre's wife down. He saw a break looming. And the paramedic was rolling the gurney thingy into the room in the background. If that has been mentioned, 'cuse the late comment.

[Happytobehere]

I don't necessarily think that Jamal is supposed to be the hero of the story. I think Andre has a pretty strong claim to leadership of the company, because of his business background, and his talents are being rejected, perhaps in part because of his illness? (And also, because I believe Lucious is threatened by his strength and leadership abilities.)

To me the irony is that Lucious has created this competition and rivalry among the brothers, when wouldn't it make more sense to have them work together to lead Empire? Especially since they all seem to like each other, when their father isn't involved.

The funny thing is while I initially thought that Andre was clearly was the most qualified until his attempted coup of the Empire. The Board of a Directors, the people who have known Andre for years and have seen his work voted no across the board with the exception of the one guy he bribed. So while Lucious is an asshat regarding his no to Andre, the business people no-voted him too. So even if Daddy gave him the company, absent the support staff to help him, I doubt Andre could run the company.

I still say watch out for Jamal, but not because he is the awesomest, but because I still feel like the show had a reason when they told us via Cookie that Jamal is just like his father, and we see what a rat bastard Daddy Lyon is. Just imagine a smarter, more capable, more business savvy and perhaps harder in the core of his being Lyon at the helm of the throne, which Jamal could arguably be because he watched and still watches his father and is currently the beneficiary of Cookie's tuteledge, and she was the the brains of that partnership. We have already started to see the manifestation of these qualities in Jamal and I don't even think we have seen the tip of the iceberg yet.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Happytobehere

[announcergirl]

One more thing, I think in saying black people don't know about, say, bi-polar disorder is underestimating black intelligence. Sure we do. I think blacks are wary of being labeled and so it seems they reject conventional medicine. They don't. They (some, never all) are just secretive about it; they keep it in the house.

[ridethemaverick]

I enjoy both the show and the conversation in here. :)

This week's episode was the weakest for me but still enjoyable.

I thought Andre's hospital stay was too rushed/shortchanged. They could have spent an entire episode just dealing with it. JH was way underused and you know what else? Don't nobody pray like that. She knows better. They all know better. Somebody call the church mothers to swat Jennifer for that LOL.

What was interesting was how Andre leaned into her...we've seen him make out and have sex with other women, including his wife, but he semed to be trying to connect to her on a deeper level. Could be a function of his mental state, could be attraction. Not sure but I hope they explore it further.

Yaaassss Malcolm and Cookie! But I feel cheated. I wanted to see the getdown.

I really hope Lola comes back.

Luscious is such an asshole but I can't quit him. I keep wanting to see what he'll do next.

The worst episode of this show is still more interesting than almost everything else I watch so I can't complain too much.

[wanderingstar]

Oh gawd, I hope Vernon is still around, even with his demons.

 

 

I like Vernon, but it may be my affection for Malik Yoba. At any rate, I want to see Vernon have more to do. I was so excited when he choked out Andre* because he was finally getting to do something other than mumble exposition.

 

Yaaassss Malcolm and Cookie! But I feel cheated. I wanted to see the getdown.

 

 

Well,

I think you'll get your wish next week.

 

*And no, I don't know what this says about me-lol

[Kendall]

I was really going to avoid posting in this thread as I didn't want my dissatisfaction with the episode to be a recurring posting theme. I'll be brief in that regard, once again, I saw things that I wanted to see, but they blew by me like NASCAR race cars, so I didn't get as much enjoyment as I would've liked.

 

I guess I'm a little shocked with the way that this show blew up immediately that there wasn't enough time for people to run back into the editing room and re-cut these later episodes to add some things that are on the cutting room floor and possibly add another episode or two for extra clarity.

 

They knew the constraints that they were originally working under were removed by about episode 3, so there should've been some overtime at the studio. That's it, I'll leave that issue of mine alone.

 

I want to address some of the things that have been mentioned in this thread.

 

1. I do buy Cookie's anger over not even being told that Andre had some sort of issues. I buy her not feeling the music therapy and quite possibly the super plush facilities that they were in. But, I do not buy that she didn't know what bi-polar disorder was.

 

Nope. Nope. Nope.

 

She lived in the petri dish of mental issues for 17 years and previously undiagnosed cases of bi-polar is why at least 15% of her co-inmates were in prison. They have TV in prison, I don't know when TV time is, but Bobby Brown claimed bi-polar (I don't believe him, but I hate Bobby) and EVERYBODY saw that Whitney Houston interview with Diane Sawyer. Hasn't Mike Tyson claimed bi-polar?

 

Too many famous black people that all social and racial classes would be interested in and gossip about have claimed bi-polar, so it would not be foreign to Cookie.

 

2. As for her still thinking "white people's thing," no, because she was housed with enough white people to know better. But, kinda yes and to that I give this memory of the Oprah Winfrey show when she had a black anorexic on her show. She listened to the woman's story with great empathy, but finally had to confess that she had never met a black anorexic.

 

In that regard, yeah, I get it.

 

With greater assimilation between the cultures there has been a "difference" in some the ways that each new generation of blacks deal with various self-esteem and social issues. Starving yourself or even thinking that you would have to, would have and still does fall under that "white folks' problems" umbrella for a lot of black people.

 

So, claiming a specific reason for why that boy or girl "ain't right in the head," takes a little more time, but not as stone age Fred Flintstone slow that Lee is pushing.

 

3. The reason why I believe blacks are so adamant that we as a whole are not that homophobic is because we simply aren't. There is no more and no less resistance than any other ethnic group. Black Christians don't use a different Bible than white Christians do, nor is our religion any more stringent than Islam or Judaism, but the Christian, and especially black Christian, church is always the biggest target.

 

Simple math would tell you that blacks are not the group that is stopping any laws being passed, especially Prop 8. If blacks are 12-13% of the population and even a lower % of the voting population, then there is no way that we can be the swing vote, not even in 2008 where more, but not all blacks went to vote. Sorry, but that has been a burr in my saddle for about seven years.

 

4. Lucious was blowing Olivia's back out while she was dating Jamal. Jamal was dating Olivia to get Lucious off his back. Olivia got pregnant, told Lucious. He got her to somehow get Jamal into bed for that "one time" that he admitted to Michael, she "caught every one of his swimmers" and told him a few weeks later, but soon enough for him to not be able to do concise math of when she really got pregnant. Lucious made his son do the right thing. No one was the wiser. The kid may not be Lucious', but he wasn't having sex with Olivia after the marriage.

 

5. The "older the berry" line was what I thought was an obvious, huge hat tip to the movie "Friday" where Smokey was talking about Mrs. Parker. But, from seeing how many people missed that, I guess Hakeem and I were the only ones.

 

Sorry for the length.

[ridethemaverick]

I like Vernon, but it may be my affection for Malik Yoba. At any rate, I want to see Vernon have more to do. I was so excited when he choked out Andre* because he was finally getting to do something other than mumble exposition.

Well,

I think you'll get your wish next week.

*And no, I don't know what this says about me-lol

Thank you kindly. *hurry up Wednesday!!!*

Kendall, you got me! I knew it was a spinoff of "blacker the berry" but completely forgot about that scene in Friday.

[aprilbabe]

Unpopular opinion here. But while Malcolm is cute, he is a big ole bore and completely wooden. He has had the same facial expression and same tone of voice in every single scene he's been in. Derek and Taraji have decent chemistry. But compared to her other costars ( Michael, Terrence, Idris and Tyrese) it doesn't even come close.

 

Plus I don't buy that Malcolm is just some genuine good guy who has fallen for Cookie. I ain't buying it. He's too perfect. There is something else going on. I feel like Cookie is being played.

[luvly]

I don't think that's why the OP was uncomfortable with that scene. She was uncomfortable (and so was I - as a Christian) because the director/script had JHud's character literally position herself between a man's legs and get all up on him (so much so that Andre almost kissed her) to PRAY. That is beyond inappropriate and a horrible depiction of Christianity - anyone praying like that needs to fall back.

Unless Daniels plans on illustrating something nefarious in JHud's character - that she's manipulating Andre, the scene was overtly sexual for her to be only intending to pray.

 

I don't think that part of the scene was specifically meant to portray anything about Christians and I say this as a Christian myself. The whole point of a classic misdirect is to set a scene up and then turn the audience's expectations on its' head. JHud's character could have been of any religion or she could have been getting down to give him a hug, suggest meditation or play a hand game lol. The intention was always to make us think something salacious was going on when it wasn't.

[luckyroll3]

I forgot to mention one of the things I loved most about this episode:

 

Hakeem: Camilla says we're this generation's Anthony and Cleopatra.

 

Cookie: Chile...

 

On a lighter note:

 

 

LOL. I enjoy Hakeem so much rn. He does know that Antony and Cleopatra killed themselves, right? 

I chuckled when someone, I think it was Jamal, said, "you know that's a tragedy right?" followed by a confused look on Hakeem's face.  It would be great if in the next episode they had a scene of Hakeem checking out the Liz Taylor movie on Netflix or something.

[kpw801]

"The older the berry the sweeter the juice" Come on!  In real life, the older berries, apples, oranges, bananas are rotten!  I am an older woman and I know fruit.  I am sure the writers were playing off the blacker the berry... which in real life fruit is true.  I live in the south where we have blackberries and when the berries are not quite ripe and they are kind of red, they are bitter and sour.  The blacker black berries are sweeter.  I think the casting of Naomi Campbell for Hakeem's love interest is perfect in that they are really mismatched.  She is waay too tall for him.  They do not look like a couple she really looks like his mother.  I totally get Cookie's frustration.  I recently graduated from college and at a luncheon where I was honored with the "Tortoise Award" my high school son was at my banquet table and an adult college professor was shamelessly flirting with him.  I did not like it at all.  He was too young to notice or he was just being really cool.

[riverheightsnancy]

What was interesting was how Andre leaned into her...we've seen him make out and have sex with other women, including his wife, but he seemed to be trying to connect to her on a deeper level. Could be a function of his mental state, could be attraction. Not sure but I hope they explore it further.

 

 

I just had an "ah-ha" moment. Acting out sexually, excessively, inappropriately can often be one of the specifiers for bipolar. I never connected it until this statement. So perhaps, Andre's open marriage thing is really an extension of his bipolar and not forward thinking on marital/sexual boundaries? Perhaps Rhonda went along because she knows that he has been messing with his meds? Even though JHud was very inappropriate (as a licensed therapist), Andre also was willing to assume that was her intent.  SEE this is why the #1 complaint to the licensing board against therapists/psychologists is inappropriate/misconstrued relationships & contact. This is why we do not touch a client especially in ways that can be misconstrued (like between his legs). Therapists need to remember that the client is currently in a vulnerable state and likely in crisis. This is why we have a code of conduct to help us navigate situations that could be misconstrued by a client. 

[phoenics]

I don't think that part of the scene was specifically meant to portray anything about Christians and I say this as a Christian myself. The whole point of a classic misdirect is to set a scene up and then turn the audience's expectations on its' head. JHud's character could have been of any religion or she could have been getting down to give him a hug, suggest meditation or play a hand game lol. The intention was always to make us think something salacious was going on when it wasn't.

Yes - my first post on this said the exact same thing... so I agree. It was pages back though, so it may have been missed.

Even still, the fact that this was connected to Christianity is still irresponsible. Either they thought about it and didn't care, or they WANT us to think crazy stuff about Christianity. Neither help.

One of my main issues with Strong/Daniels is the heavy-handedness and "hitting us over the top of the head" direction and writing. If they wanted to turn expectations on their heads, they could have done it in a better way. Good writers know how to do that without all of the unintended (if it was) fallout.

Our discussion of the "black community is homophobic" and "black community is intolerant of mental illness" narratives is really about how hamfisted (we believe) the writing is. It doesn't have enough nuance to not put out inadvertent (or perhaps purposeful) generalizations about an entire community.

Don't get me wrong - I still love this show - but I do see some issues that I hope they fix.

[NorthstarATL]

The Musketeers just did a similar praying scene (that went even further into weird territory), so the Andre/therapist scene seemed tame to me. (And I was part of a born-again Christian group one summer that did a lot of one-on-one praying that delved really uncomfortably into territory that had little to do with prayer.)

   I've read through the discussions about whether the show addresses this or that topic in a way that fairly or unfairly reflects upon a race of people, and it's just sad that, even in 2015, we cannot have flawed and nuanced characterizations of any person, whatever their race, gender, orientation, happen to be, I know that, for gays, there's been a push to only show us in the most positive light as possible, after years of token depictions which were amost universally negative and/or miserable. Now, we are depicted in almost every genre, and, sadly, the edict still seems to be in effect, which, frankly, makes some of our depictions boring. That's why I lament the loss of Michael, who might have fleshed out Jamal's character, and not forced him into being a "Mary Sue", who has no flaws, lest those flaws be taken as a slap against the gay community as a whole.

    The number of blacks in the cast (Naomi Campbell is not, AFAIK, American, so African-American doesn't cover) SHOULD allow for a range of characters and attitudes without each one having to reflect the black community, a freedom which makes Empire so good, as it doesn't play "safe".

  Strangely, Rhonda is in the token role on the show that would have gone to a black character decades ago.

[AyeshaTheGreat]

5. The "older the berry" line was what I thought was an obvious, huge hat tip to the movie "Friday" where Smokey was talking about Mrs. Parker. But, from seeing how many people missed that, I guess Hakeem and I were the only ones.

 

 

Thank you.  I have been trying to remember what movie that line was from, and my usually reliable relative could not come through.  So, we may be the only ones who caught the line but when he said "The older the berry" I immediately started saying, "It's the blacker the berry", "Well, she blacker than a ....".

[aradia22]

I've been down on them in the past but Andre (this week and last) and Lola were breaking my heart this episode. I do still think Empire needs to get back on track instead of just having a good scene here and there. They don't seem to have a plot anchoring the drama. I'm not sure if Lola's characterization of the three brothers was accurate but it's an interesting thing for the writers to throw in. To review, Andre is sad, Hakeem is angry, and Jamal is scared.

 

I've never found Jennifer Hudson to be a good actress. She's still not great here but she's fine. Still, I'm hoping for an Andre/Rhonda reconciliation over him falling for his music therapist and surrendering to the will of God and power of religion. Particularly because it would go along with Lucious' prejudices about interracial relationships and I'm really not feeling like supporting anything he believes in at the moment. I almost feel bad for Terrence Howard. How much terrible stuff are they going to pile on him? He's not even a vicious kind of terrible. More and more he's just a kind of slimy, pathetic terrible.

 

 

Tonight was the first night where I can agree with the argument that the show moves a bit too fast for the plot to make sense.

Yes. I've said this before but I think the plotlines seem to move at different paces. Which is cool if you're Shakespeare, but the King Lear nonsense aside, Empire needs to calm down. 

 

They really need to get on making Rhonda more interesting. At this point I don't care if they need to do some retconning. But sex games, literal ball crusher Rhonda was not working. This started from the bottom, 10 year complicated marriage with a husband suffering from bipolar disorder is something I could get behind.

[Telechy]

I'm not sure if Lola's characterization of the three brothers was accurate but it's an interesting thing for the writers to throw in. To review, Andre is sad, Hakeem is angry, and Jamal is scared.

 

Since Lola is made of puppies and magic I'm sure there's some truth to it, and I loved the Dorothy-in-Oz way she delivered all her lines. Other characters may be deep as a sheet of paper at this point, but the Lyon family has been well drawn, and those adjectives provide some insight into what's going on inside the guys. Andre's M.O. was barely contained rage that first erupted into violence in this episode, and then dissolved into something much sadder. As he's reminded his brothers more than once, he was the only one old enough to understand what was going on with their mother, and chose a long, lonely road to acquire the skills needed to build the empire, knowing all the while that his father considered him an outside both for his lack of musical talent and his choice of wife. He looked so tired and defeated--I hope he got more help than just the "music therapy."

 

As for the other two guys, Jamal has done a lot of brave things lately (including stare unflinching down the barrels of guns, TWICE) but he's gone from singing in coffee houses to stardom in a very short time, so I wouldn't blame him for being scared. As for Hakeem, we've only seen flashes of anger when Cookie reappeared, but I wonder how he'll deal in the long run with being his father's teen idol/protege/puppet.

 

They really need to get on making Rhonda more interesting. At this point I don't care if they need to do some retconning

 

Andre and Rhonda started out like Lord and Lady Macbeth with a dash of Profitt thrown in. The revelation that Rhonda comes from a poor family is interesting, as she's never given off the high society/ice queen vibe that Anika did, and consequently seemed a bit cheap for someone like Andre. But if they bonded over feeling like outsiders and family rejects, and if she's stuck by Andre through bouts of illness, then there could be a lot more at play there. 

[GreekGeek]

As for Hakeem, we've only seen flashes of anger when Cookie reappeared, but I wonder how he'll deal in the long run with being his father's teen idol/protege/puppet.

 

He'll be plenty angry in a hurry if he ever gets wind of what his father did to break up him and Camilla and lie to him about it. There will be lots of conflict between the two if he decides he wants to make his own music, or if he makes any choices Lucious wouldn't have made.

[Grace19]

Too bad TPH and Luke Derek have no chemistry, I would have enjoyed them.

[SailingBy]

Lucious is the only major character on this show expressing homophobia - everyone else in the family is supportive of Jamal and, when Jamal came out by singing a song to a 99.9% black audience, the audience didn't miss a beat when they heard his changed lyrics and continued to enthusiastically dance along.

Which is part of the lack of realism of Lucious' almost obsessive homophobia. He is the only one around showing it, and despite the fact that he's this hugely dominant patriarch, it doesn't seem to have rubbed off on his sons, or to be shared by any of the people of his own generation that are around. It seems to be there for somebody to make a point, rather than as something that would be natural to expect from someone like him.

 

The black father conversation between Ryan and Jamal immediately comes to mind as an example of this, it wasn't necessary for Ryan to have a homophobic black dad, and then for Jamal co-sign Ryan's comment that black fathers are inherently homophobic.

I think the aspect that made that scene so jarring to me was actually unintentional. We're told that 90% or so of the season had already been written before the pilot aired. That scene was therefore probably written before an Australian actor was cast for the part, and it was decided to let him use his native accent, thus turning the character Australian too. And nobody stopped and thought: wait a minute, why would somebody from a completely different cultural background apparently have the same problem Jamal has with his dad, just because their dads are both black? It would have been an extremely iffy assumption in a conversation between two Americans, but suggesting it holds worldwide validity makes it wholly absurd IMO. But unintentional or not, that is what went out.

 

It's adding unnecessary lines to the script to imply, or outright state, those problems are endemic to a community when, in fact, they're universal. <snip> Lee also does this when he perpetuates the absurd notion of the downlow when the downlow doesn't exist. Being closeted is not race-specific.

But just because being closeted isn't "race"-specific doesn't mean homophobia, and therefore closetedness, can't be a bigger problem among certain groups in the US population than among others. That a term like the down-low came into existence in the first place (or rather, became applied to this specific issue) suggests that there is a problem there, and as far as I can tell, that usage wasn't something invented by outsiders, and is not something that can be simply equated with "being in the closet" as it is used in other contexts.

And no, homophobia is not a universal thing. In the US it is, for instance, closely tied to adherence to certain kinds of organized religion as well as other social factors. To use a hypothetical example divorced from skin color, it would be silly to say that somebody growing up gay in, say, an ultra-conservative, devoutly Mormon farming family in rural Utah isn't going to have to come to terms with a level of homophobia that would be almost or completely absent from the life of someone growing up in a wealthy, liberal, completely secular, academic family from a college town somewhere in New England. To use another example, from everything I've ever seen published on the subject in Europe (and I think this one is actually pretty universal), homophobic attitudes are closely related to educational level. The more years someone has spent in education, the less likely they are to be homophobic. Of course, that in turn is also closely linked to income level and general social status.

 

The reason why I believe blacks are so adamant that we as a whole are not that homophobic is because we simply aren't. There is no more and no less resistance than any other ethnic group.

 

Are you really claiming that homophobia is equally prevalent among all segments of US society, and completely unrelated to ethnicity and religious background? That doesn't fit with any studies on the subject I've ever seen reported.

 

Black Christians don't use a different Bible than white Christians do, nor is our religion any more stringent than Islam or Judaism, but the Christian, and especially black Christian, church is always the biggest target.

 

That would be because certain religious organizations and certain pastors are publicly, stridently homophobic, others are pretty much silent on the matter, and others have become quite openly anti-homophobic, and those different attitudes aren't just randomly spread around, Also, organized religions differ markedly in how much sway they have, or think they have, over the attitudes of their members. A great many Americans, even church-going ones, don't think of priests or pastors as significant authority figures any more.

 

And if there isn't a correlation between certain types of religion and the African-American community, why do you use terms like "the black Christian church" and "our religion" (my emphasis)? If you criticize Lee Daniels for unfairly generalizing about black people when it comes to homophobia , why do you generalize about black people being members of certain churches?

 

(And no, a correlation between two things does not mean that they're the same thing. And making perfectly valid statements, based on polling data and sociological research, generalizing about social groups as a whole does not mean that one implies such statements are predictive about each member identified as part of such a group. That men are on average taller than women, for instance, a perfectly valid statement, does not tell one how tall someone is if all you know is whether they're male or female, or that you can tell whether they're male or female if all you know is how tall they are.)

[Guest]

Finally got around to watching.  The discussion here brings to mind a theme in the movie Girl, Interrupted.  It's been a long time since I saw it and my memory is bad but I believe the black housekeeper tells the Wynona Ryder character at the beginning that depression is a white people problem, basically because they just aren't busy enough and they're self-involved.  I feel like the character wound up agreeing with her in the end.  Sometimes I wonder.  It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  If you don't have food and shelter and basic needs really well covered, are you going to be worried about the intangibles like happiness and spiritual fulfillment?  

 

I thought Lucious literally deporting Camilla was stupid.  Also, how they all just said goodbye to Lola.  Malcolm's love declaration was pretty silly, too.  I kind of hoped he really just knew that'd be a quick way to get Cookie to drop her drawers.  

 

JHud was great in Dream Girls and Sex and the City, but she does feel a bit wooden since the Oscar.  Maybe she feels she's so good she can dial it back to virtually nothing?  Patricia Arquette is another woodenish Oscar winner, as of this year.  Maybe the Academy likes wooden women.  

 

I too laugh at the Hakeem lyrics.  

 

What is up with everyone sampling the same Suzanne Vega thing?  Fall Out Boy has a huge hit right now with that prominent in it, too.  

Edited March 15, 2015 by Guest

[Telechy]

 

Malcolm's love declaration was pretty silly, too.  I kind of hoped he really just knew that'd be a quick way to get Cookie to drop her drawers.

 

As others here have noted, it was laughably porn-ish, but I agree that it showed that he's been observing Cookie very closely, possibly for sneaky reasons (he appeared on the scene and very quickly took over "security" at Empire--is he a Creedmore plant?) 

 

An aspect to Cookie that I find very touching is that for all her bold presentation of herself, she has self-doubt about her attractiveness. She wears her fur and heels and fake hair like armor, but she was the one who told Elle to take all that crap off in order to get in touch with her real self. And is there any doubt that "You're So Beautiful" was written for Cookie, especially when she sang it to herself at a low moment in prison? The whole song (which is surprisingly sweet considering it was Lucious's big hit) is about finding a woman drop-dead gorgeous at any size, without a manicure, etc. 

 

So yes, I think Malcolm knew that appearing to be overwhelmed by his attraction to Cookie, so much so that he would betray his employer, was very attractive to Cookie and a good way to get past her defenses.