S03.E15: Nanda Parbat

[Ariah]

The word is that if you cut all the scenes between Ray and Felicity from all the episodes and put them together, you'll get an ATOM episode.

It has a different pace, it's a sort of action comedy with it's own music cues.

(I hate being bludgeoned over the head with musical cues and there were all over the episode, in each Ray/Felicity scene the triumphant ATOM cues come in... Yes, show, I get it! It's his theme! Now stop and get back to Oliver, show!)

- - -

I don't get it with power levels on this show either - I mean, if I were to categorize the characters, like Super Saiyan level categorize them, how would that go? In this episode alone, we've seen:

- Malcolm is better than Oliver (first sparring)

- Malcolm is better than Laurel (duh!)

- Malcolm is worse than Nyssa

- Oliver is better than Nyssa

...

ok.

So Malcolm is both better and worse than Oliver? (Oliver has beaten Nyssa who had beaten Malcolm...)

I just don't get it. Or maybe I missed something, could be as I was ironing at the time.

- - -

Laurel's quote about her not believing that she could have been in love with Oliver once... Now this came so out of the blue that it made me wonder if the writers didn't put it there to remind us that yes, Oliver and Laurel used to be an item.

Because sure as h*ll they couldn't show us that for 2,5 seasons.

Ok, hear me out: Laurel now mentiones that she once loved Oliver to remind the viewers about it... So that it can be brought back again. Like in two episodes' time she can change her mind and be all like "Now I know why I fell in love with you once" and "I can see the man I fall in love with in you!" (In my mind that man she fall in love with is a douche and womaniser, and we have photo-proof that he looked darkly dreaming Dexter, but whatever, Laurel).

 

Anyhow - I'm all ready for Laurivel 2.0. The writers are on a roll with bad relationships...

- - -

 

Speaking of which.

 

Ray and Felicity. I guess everything has been said on the matter.

I knew it was bound to happen (a repeat from Sara/Oliver in S2). It also felt forced to me, like painting by the numbers: meet cute, bond over common interest and common loss, be forced into a situation in which there's a towel, a bed and no other human being.

I know I'm not watching my Felicity - the one I fell in love with in S1 and S2. I'm watching a plot device dressed up as Felicity, a plot device that imitates her babble (but not good enough, as her Oliver-oriented babble was much funnier), a plot device that is used to make me like a character I don't feel the need to like.

 

#bringBackFelicity!

#thisisnotFelicitySmoak!

 

- - -

The flashback - too confusing.

On any other show, written by competent people, I'd asume Tatsu and Maseo will meet Oliver again and find out what happened to Akio. Because if that was not the case, Tatsu would ask Oliver what happened to her son when they met in the mountain hut. So they must have met later on, and this is not the last time we're seeing Tatsu and Maseo in the flashbacks.

But on this show I'm not so sure.

- - -

 

Oliver as the head of LoA?

I can see this:

Oliver: "We have a new set of rules from now on. No killing. I repeat, no killing. I know, we're called the League of Assassins, but let's not be so dependant on names! From now on, we use only sleeping darts - you know, the ones you've been using on Laurel so often. By the way, can I have some? She's been nagging too mch lately..."

 

- - -

 

A few lose thoughts:

- Diggle, I love you, never change. ("Friends call me Dig...")

- Malcolm, you can kick Laurel's arse anytime. Does it make a bad person if I liked that scene?

- Oliver, the fall from that cliff (and the writers) took away your brain. #giveTheInteligentOliverBack!

[looptab]

I didn't hate it... but I'm not so sure I liked it.

First of all, I'm glad that, put in context, the reaction Felicity had to Oliver saying he had to save MM wasn't as bad as the preview made it seem. I liked the scenes were she was allowed to be with Oliver. 

 

I didn't mind Laurel. Never thought I'd say this, but I actually liked her in her scene with Oliver, although that line "a time I was in love with you blah blah" was seriously out of place. The other scenes, she was overshadowed first by Thea, then by Nyssa, and their awesomeness. Thea+Nyssa FTW. (But the scene with Malcolm was soooo fun to watch!)

 

Diggle, and everything Oliver+Diggle, I loved. Except that it didn't make a lot of sense for Diggle to approve of this latest stupidity. As many of you, I hated that the Trio dynamic was absent, but Oliver had to be in Nanda Parbat, and if they had the chance to talk it out, Oliver would have come to his senses. The show knows this. That's why there's no Trio. 

 

I'm intrigued by the offer, even if it's a completely dumb thing, because I still hope they will at least deliver in showing the conflict Oliver will face over this decision.

 

Ray+Felicity, I knew it was coming. I didn't hate it, it's just there, and it doesn't particularly bother me, but I agree that the difference of tone felt jarring.

Also I think that those who are complaining that he is her boss, wouldn't have complained last year if she had slept with Oliver when she was working for him.

 

Roy is becoming one of my fave; Maseo <3; Lyla is always welcome.

 

Last thing: I believe I spotted more stunt doubles this episodes than in 2.5 seasons. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by looptab

[dcinmb]

What bothers me is that I realize that this story line is similar to what happened on Beauty and the Beast during Season 2 (shut up).  For some reason, the writers decided to make Vincent an idiot, and then have this new male character suddenly become the embodiment of all things perfect in a man, and kept having Vincent dumped on for pretty much the entire season and make poor decisions to suit the plot.  I quit watching that show, and it's not a good feeling to see those same parallels here.  Look, I find Ray kind of creepy as well, but clearly the writers don't. 

 

The only way Arrow could come anywhere close to approaching BatB levels of stupidity is if Felicity were to fall in love with Malcolm Merlyn.

[tanita]

god, could katarina law just become a regular on this show already !!!!! she could be either on team arrow, an independent vigilante, teacher of thea/laurel, their main nemesis, new ra's al ghul, don't care, everything she touches on this show turns to gold.

 

and boy, does she annoy oliver to no end. i love her just for that. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by tanita

[tv echo]

Things I learned from this episode...

 

Ra's al Ghul is the Dread Pirate Roberts (as others have noted) - and the Lazarus Pit arguably does not exist.  His comment about his last challenge being 67 years ago could've been part of keeping up the fiction that Ra's is virtually immortal, so it could've been his predecessor who actually took that challenge.

 

Nyssa's relationship with Sara somehow disqualified her from being the Heir to the Demon.  Talia apparently does not exist in this universe (otherwise, she'd be the heir).  Ra's does not deem any existing member of the League of Assassins worthy of being his successor - not even Maseo.  Instead, Ra's selects an ex-playboy ex-billionaire with about 8 years of training to be the new Ra's.  (I guess only straight white males need apply.)

 

Nyssa can beat Malcolm in a fight.  Oliver can beat Nyssa in a fight.  So why is Oliver training under Malcolm again?  (Also noted by others here.)

 

Oliver's real reason for training with Malcolm is because he's desperate to beat Ra's and can't stand the thought that Ra's defeated him.  (So his real motive is macho pride or ego?)

 

Malcolm had no secret grand plan.

 

Diggle has a problem sitting by while Oliver goes off and risks his life.  He has no problem sitting by while Laurel and Roy go off and risk their lives.

 

Oliver's death wish is apparently a genetic trait that is shared by Thea.

 

The EPs have no real idea of why the Oliver & Felicity relationship worked during the first two seasons.  You can't duplicate the Oliver-Felicity dynamic just by having Felicity babble - esp. when the recipient of her babbling is a store mannequin.

 

Felicity has been replaced by a pod person who is so desperate for romance that she has sex with creepy stalkerish Ray, while Oliver is off facing death again.  (Since Felicity and Diggle apparently no longer speak to each other, she likely doesn't know that Diggle has gone with Oliver.)

 

The EPs are determined to destroy the Olicity fandom (Felicity initiated the sex with Ray - ugh!) and maybe the Lauriver fandom as well (Laurel to Oliver: “It’s hard to remember a time when I was actually in love with you.”).

 

Laurel loves her sister more in death than she did when Sara was alive.

 

The EPs are succeeding in their plan to even out Felicity's and Laurel's popularity with fans.

 

Having copied the Nolan Batman movies, the EPs are now moving on to copy Marvel's Iron Man movies.  (They're apparently too busy to come up with original storylines.)

 

The Atom pilot was apparently shot separately and its scenes were then awkwardly spliced into the current Arrow episodes.

 

The EPs really, really want an Atom spin-off show.

 

P.S.  Baby Sara is seriously cute.

Edited February 26, 2015 by tv echo

[quarks]

Screentime:

 

« nanda parbat »
Oliver: 19mins, 54secs
Laurel: 10mins, 52secs
Diggle: 10mins, 48secs
Thea: 9mins, 2secs
Felicity: 8mins, 5secs
Roy: 6mins, 22secs
Malcolm: 6mins, 32secs
Quentin: 0mins, 0secs

 

« season totals (so far) »
Oliver: 5hours, 23minuts, 52secs
Laurel: 2hours, 7mins, 45secs
Diggle: 2hours, 2mins, 22secs
Thea: 1hour, 26mins, 59secs
Felicity: 2hours, 39mins, 24secs
Roy: 2hours, 3mins, 33secs
Malcolm: 50mins, 20secs
Quentin: 32mins, 41secs

 

Source: http://forgingfire.tumblr.com/  

 

Again, this does not include the Flash crossover episodes, which greatly up Oliver and Felicity's screentime and pull Diggle ahead of Roy and Laurel.

 

I remain deeply concerned about Quentin. I completely understand why the character wants nothing more to do with Team Arrow right now and I'd applaud him for never speaking to any of them again, but....Quentin!

[Carrie Ann]

Last thing: I believe I spotted more stunt doubles this episodes than in 2.5 seasons. 

 

Me too! The Malcolm/Nyssa fight was particularly egregious.

 

 

Things I learned from this episode...

 

Nyssa's relationship with Sara somehow disqualified her from being the Heir to the Demon.  Talia apparently does not exist in this universe (otherwise, she'd be the heir).  Ra's does not deem any existing member of the League of Assassins worthy of being his successor - not even Maseo.  Instead, Ra's selects an ex-playboy ex-billionaire with about 8 years of training to be the new Ra's.  (I guess only straight white males need apply.)

 

Laurel loves her sister more in death than she did when Sara was alive.

 

The Atom pilot was apparently shot separately and its scenes were then awkwardly spliced into the current Arrow episodes.

 

Loved many of your points, but pulled out the ones I agreed with most while watching. Nyssa being disinherited for being a lesbian is...yikes. I shudder to think how they will handle this going forward, but if this season doesn't end with Nyssa victorious in some form, I will lose it. It appears that she will end up recruiting/training Thea and Laurel, which I believe we all called WAY way back in the fall, and I'm fine with that.

 

But that doesn't mean that Laurel isn't still the WORST. OK, I know I have an uncharitable view of her, but the things they make her say and do...it's like sometimes they seem very aware of the criticism of her character and her laughable journey, and other times they are totally tone-deaf to it. Like, the jealous little gleam in her eye when she asked Thea if she'd really picked all of her fighting skills up in just a few months. And, then they have Laurel--LAUREL--ask Oliver how he can possibly manage to lie like that, every day, for weeks? You lied to your own father for months! And then all the stuff about how she felt like with Malcolm "dead" she would lose this last piece of Sara--well, you've snatched up every other piece of her available, just short of making yourself a skin-suit, so maybe just cling a little tighter to all that leather.

[Glory]

Guys. A lot of good things happened in this episode! 

 

--Malcom acting like Laurel was a fly he barely had the energy to swat away. 

--Laurel and Oliver getting into TWICE. I like this relationship between Laurel and Oliver. It's much more believable and plays to KC's strengths. Plus, it makes sense that they'd be at each other's throats. 

-- Roy and Thea scenes. Squee. They might be my OTP even though I love Olicity. 

-- NYSSA. Nyssa makes everything better. 

-- Felicity got some action. Yeah, ok. It was Ray. But, still. Sometimes you just need to scratch and itch and I'm glad that she did. 
-- Diggle/Oliver bonding. Brothers! Aww! 

 

So many good things. I don't even care about Nanda Parbat. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I know we have complained about the writing for this show, but in the context of the plot and character development. I want to complain about the writing as in the actual words used on the show. Do the writers have no concept of grammar? To wit:

 

Laurel: Oliver, I'm about as angry with you right now than I've been with anyone in my life.

 

Malcolm: Oliver mentioned you were having some identity issues though he didn't mention about your delusions of grandeur.

 

Seriously? Someone wrote those lines and thought they were grammatically correct? And no one else on the writing staff wanted to point out the errors? Or they all truly think that this is proper English? Gawd. It's bad enough that the plots are absolute shit but now they can't even write their crappy dialogue without making glaring mistakes like this?

 

 

 

What annoys me the most about Oliver being so concerned about her not losing her "biological father" is not only that he wasn't ever a father figure to her in any way, and he wasn't even some deadbeat who just passively sat around doing nothing for her...he actively hurt her. He put her in harm's way to protect himself, and he drugged her to do it. At that point, no one should care about blood lines. When Oliver said that Malcolm loved Thea, I almost had to turn off my television.

I know that blood counts for something, but in this case they are acting like just because he is her bio father that counts for everything. Never mind the fact that he was a shitty father to Tommy first by disappearing when Tommy needed him most after his mother was murdered and then being a dick to him when he came back to Starling City. And while I support Malcolm offering to teach Thea how to fight, that doesn't make him a good father. She could hire someone to teach her every fighting style in the book and that wouldn't magically turn her instructor into a loving father. Robert and Walter loved her in spite of knowing that she wasn't their bio daughter. You don't need a blood tie in order to be a good father. And in point of fact, Malcolm has gone out of his way to use his blood tie to manipulate Thea (telling her to keep all these secrets from Oliver) and then to violate her body and mind by drugging her and having her kill Sara without her knowledge or consent.

 

Despite my complete disgust with Malcolm as both a father and a person, I laughed my ass off when he easily shrugged off everything Laurel threw at him with almost no effort at all. Laurel was completely delusional to think that she could even come close to hurting him.

 

After bringing up how he has live with the guilt of knowing that both Robert and Moira died because of him, I thought Oliver's motivation for going back to Nanda Parbat would be slaying that metaphorical dragon but nope, it was because Ra's beat him. If I'm being generous, I would say that it's less ego driven and more about Oliver asking himself what he did wrong and beating himself up for not being prepared enough to face Ra's. But knowing that Malcolm managed to easily fight off both Oliver and Thea simultaneously earlier in the episode, there's no way that Oliver could have truly believed that he was ready to defeat Ra's.

 

I still find Ray creepy. His whole "oops, am I just wearing a towel?" move was like when college chicks pretend to be drunk and then make out with their female friends to entice the guys who they know are watching. It's so obvious and stupid. And unfortunately I saw what happened tonight as Ray humoring Felicity and taking his time out (with bonus sex!) so that he could get back to playing with his toy as soon as possible. Felicity, you deserve better than this. I know he's a ripped bajillionaire, but you STILL deserve better than Ray.

 

When Ray was in the shower and Felicity was wandering around his place, I thought she would find something, anything, whether it was a PeeChee folder that said "Ray + Felicity 4eva!!" on the cover or a to do list of evil things or pictures of her sleeping. But nope, just priceless paintings.

Edited February 26, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[verbalme]

When I compare previous seasons to the current season of Arrow so far, a few things struck me:

- season 1 was supposed to be shaky and season 2 was supposed to be stronger than season 1. Season 3 was supposed to build on the strengths of the past 2 seasons. Not happening so far.

- Granted the theme for Season 3 is identity, not only of Oliver but the rest in his life, but not written well, show. Use tropes wisely and in small amounts.

- the importance of a good showrunner who guides the show so that the stories make sense

I loved the Diggle/Oliver scenes, but everyone suddenly telling everyone their secrets was too jarring. And too many things crammed into 1 episode, even for a CW show.

I will never get tired of seeing Laurel getting her ass kicked. Thea needs to kick her ass next!

-

Edited February 26, 2015 by verbalme

[Primetimer]

Everyone's either making crazy sacrifices for each other or taking a break for some unexpected sexing. It may be a comic book show, but it's still on The CW.

Read the story

[shrewd.buddha]

I think our household is about done with this show -- beyond background noise -- and it's all because of Oliver's nonsensical defense of Malcolm and most everyone acting as if Sara's death was no big deal because it was needed for the plot to work. The show's logic just does not make sense anymore. 

 

Quick notes:

• Thea's approach is best : just tell everyone the truth and let things work out as they will.
• Thea isn't killing her bio-Dad - she is turning him over to Ra's for his crimes. No need for guilt there.
• Malcolm is a cry-baby when caught by Ra's, but so smug in Starling City.
• Oliver kills 10+ guards ... no one cares  ... but no one is allowed to kill Malcolm , Oliver , or Diggle in return. 
• Felicity doesn't seem too worried about Oliver on this suicide mission trip... 
• The next Ra's : only men who were never trained by Ra's need apply.

 

Has something happened behind the scenes that would explain why the show is so badly written now? 

Edited February 26, 2015 by shrewd.buddha

[looptab]

Laurel: Oliver, I'm about as angry with you right now than I've been with anyone in my life.

 

This really annoyed me, because it was as dumb a line as it gets, but she had to say her piece.

And when Oliver asked Thea if Roy  told her he was going to go to Nanda Parbat and she answered "And Laurel!" . 

We get it! She's there! No need to hammer it into our heads.

 

There's no escape from Laurel :/

[lemotomato]

Ray+Felicity, I knew it was coming. I didn't hate it, it's just there, and it doesn't particularly bother me, but I agree that the difference of tone felt jarring.

Also I think that those who are complaining that he is her boss, wouldn't have complained last year if she had slept with Oliver when she was working for him.

 

Nope! I still would've had a problem with it if it had happened to Oliver and Felicity last year. 

[Password]

Tbh it's something I had a problem with even during summer when all the Ray spoilers were rolling out. Not only were there rumours of her and Oliver when he made her an EA, but now as a promoted VP she's also with this boss. Eeeeeh. Her reputation at QC is shot.

But it's something that won't be addressed because Felicity is the supporting cast in her own life.

[looptab]

Nope! I still would've had a problem with it if it had happened to Oliver and Felicity last year. 

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have generalized. But I just feel like in this case is being used just to pile up reasons for disliking the character and the pairing. I don't think there would be such outrage if her boss were still Oliver, because, as much as it is a problematic situation in real life, it's pretty common in television, and would be most easily overlooked had it happened to the favorite ship.

[Lady Calypso]

This episode was kind of stupid. 

 

First of all, Felicity. I was actually surprised to see her not only in the Arrow Cave, but actually helping out. I know it hasn't been THAT long, but it feels like a sad treat whenever we see Felicity working with Team Arrow now. I'm disappointed in the way the show has treated Felicity this season. This isn't the Felicity we've known for two seasons now. She may be angry, and it may be well deserved, but it's frustrating. Felicity needs to make a decision on if she wants to stay on Team Arrow or not, because it's like she's hardly there anymore. Whenever she yells at Oliver now, it's not out of concern for him or anything like that; it's more like she's a jealous ex who can't make up her mind on her feelings for him. Then she goes to run off with Ray which, ok fine she can have a life outside of Team Arrow, but there's a point where it's too much and a point where she's only there to get people interested in another superhero and so she can have sexy times without the baggage. This whole season has treated Felicity like a prop and a cliche, and I'm sorry, but her attitude toward Oliver is not being written well at all. Her reasoning for being angry does not work for me, so I'm more on Oliver's side than Felicity and that really shouldn't be happening, because Oliver's being an idiot. 

 

Also, don't care about Raylicity being a couple. I'd rather she hooked up with random guys, or found a relationship with a guy who's not like Oliver/Ray. It's clear Ray's the alternate Oliver, and I HATE that cliche. Although...gotta say, Routh looked great in his first scene. But yeah, stupid light on the Raylicity kiss, just like Olicity's kiss in the premiere. SCREW YOU, WRITERS. And...Gregory Smith, I love you and all, but....that was the wrong choice to make during that scene. I know it was supposed to be an Olicity/Raylicity parallel, possibly one that was supposed to emphasize how Ray pales in comparison to Oliver, but....yeah, no.

 

Now, Oliver. He's an idiot, I can't justify why he wants to save Malcolm and was surprisingly on Laurel's side this episode. Malcolm doesn't need to stay alive. Thea has Oliver and she doesn't need Malcolm. Nobody needs Malcolm, actually. Malcolm's reasons for staying alive make no sense, writers. Oliver's insistence that Malcolm needs to stay alive, when Laurel and Thea are telling him that Malcolm needs to die, is just ridiculous. Oliver is very controlling and I get that maybe, just maybe, he might be afraid that Thea will be left alone very soon if Oliver gets killed by Ra's or by anybody, but they're not explaining that much. I get that Oliver wants to protect Thea, but he's going all wrong about this. 

 

God. Oliver, and leaving your sister to go possibly die AGAIN, after Thea begs you not to because she doesn't want to lose her brother? She turned in Malcolm for a reason! Just leave it be! I wouldn't even care if we lost John Barrowman, because Malcolm's time should have ended at the end of season 1. Just let this all go. This is why shows get ruined, because showrunners get too attached to an actor and they can't let them go, so they find contrived reasons to keep their characters around. 

 

It's sad, but justified, that Diggle/Oliver's relationship was in the forefront this episode when it hasn't really been in a long time. Thank god Diggle's back out on the field and this actually made sense, for once. I guess this relationship is the strongest on the show now.

 

I...didn't actually hate Laurel? Actually, I found her the most tolerable and I actually enjoyed her scenes. Her hypocrisy aside, she was actually the voice of reason. At this point, I've accepted that Laurel's gonna be part of the action now and I'll have to trudge through hypocrisy, bullshit, Katie's acting and horrible writing. But..that's a lot to trudge through. Well, KC's acting was actually good this episode. I actually enjoyed her, the first time since season 1. Eh, at least she's consistent with her struggling to fight and her selfish nature. And her scene with Oliver, talking about starting to forget her, was well done. So was her telling Oliver that he was lying and he was being stupid. This episode finally highlighted Laurel's grief in a way that worked toward KC's acting strengths and didn't make me hate her at all. Mostly annoyed, yes, but I didn't hate her and she didn't act out of character.

 

Oh, Roy. I really do love you now. Colton's acting is much better. I remember his acting on Teen Wolf and oh god, he was bad there. 

 

The twist at the end? Um...ok? But hey, at least somebody thinks Oliver's worthy of something great! Ok, Oliver's an idiot and I guess so is Ra's for trusting him to be an heir, but at least he isn't all judgemental over Oliver's actions.

 

Also:

 

Ray: I only think about you when I'm around you. The job is never on my mind
Next scene:

Ray: *goes back to work*

 

LOL, they definitely were contradicting themselves there, but I think it was on purpose. Still, hilarious. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by jessied112

[KirkB]

I know a lot of people here seem to think of Ray as a creepy stalker. I get that. I don't really see it that way, though I do understand where it comes from, but to each their own. Because of this I am in a minority of not being bothered by Felicity sleeping with him. She's an adult and doesn't owe anything to Oliver. I say go for it. What I absolutely do agree with is the bizarre tonal shifts between anything with Ray and virtually everything else on the show. It's like he's a character from a sitcom who wandered in from another show and no one noticed. And his whole dressing up scene couldn't be more a blatant ripoff of Iron Man if they sent an email sent to Marvel daring them to sue them. 

 

Oliver beating Nyssa isn't terribly surprising. He beat her in her first appearance too. It is a little jarring to see her beat Malcolm and then Oliver beat her, since Oliver can't beat Malcolm, but what I think it comes down to is Oliver is great with a bow (just not as good as Malcolm) and great at martial arts (probably even with Nyssa) but not so good with a sword. Which wouldn't be as big of a deal if he didn't agree to a sword fight with Ra's.

 

Speaking of the Demon's Head, I'm a little confused. Which may be on purpose, I don't know. Anyway, Ra's ended the episode offering leadership of the League to Oliver, which makes no damn sense. Why raise Nyssa as Heir to the Demon if you have no intention of giving her the position? Has he been stringing her along her whole life for fun? He also said he wants Oliver to be the new Ra's al Ghul, which implies this is more of a title than a name and he may not be the first one. Only in his talk with Malcolm earlier he mentions meeting a guy back in the 1800's. So is he long lived or lying?

 

Good things: Nyssa. Thea, clearing the air with everybody and willing to take what comes. Nyssa. Quentin for apparently being smarter than everyone else and staying off this impending train wreck as much as possible. Nyssa. Malcolm casually beating Laurel with both hands behind his back. Nyssa.

 

Bad things: Oliver and his terrible, awful, no good, very bad decision making skills. Here and in the past. Laurel, just on general principle now. Matt Nable as Ra's al Ghul continues to underwhelm me and Ra's choosing Oliver Queen as his successor for no reason I can fathom.

 

For once, I am not bothered by this show being gone for a while. I think I need a break.

[Delphi]

I love Nyssa and Thea. They were the light in this otherwise awful episode. I was hoping after last week things were going to get better but no.

I hate that they keep calling Malcolm Thea's father, fuck Walter I guess.

I'm not too bothered by the felicity scenes to be honest they made more sense than the rest of the episode.

Ollie is not Bruce Wayne, so I don't get it.

I guess maybe Bruce could have already dissed Ra's abd I suppose Talia could have already cut ties with her father. But who would have thought such an honour bound secret society would be so against same sex relationships...bad form league.

[wonderwall]

First of all, Felicity. I was actually surprised to see her not only in the Arrow Cave, but actually helping out. I know it hasn't been THAT long, but it feels like a sad treat whenever we see Felicity working with Team Arrow now. I'm disappointed in the way the show has treated Felicity this season. This isn't the Felicity we've known for two seasons now. She may be angry, and it may be well deserved, but it's frustrating. Felicity needs to make a decision on if she wants to stay on Team Arrow or not, because it's like she's hardly there anymore. Whenever she yells at Oliver now, it's not out of concern for him or anything like that; it's more like she's a jealous ex who can't make up her mind on her feelings for him. Then she goes to run off with Ray which, ok fine she can have a life outside of Team Arrow, but there's a point where it's too much and a point where she's only there to get people interested in another superhero and so she can have sexy times without the baggage. This whole season has treated Felicity like a prop and a cliche, and I'm sorry, but her attitude toward Oliver is not being written well at all. Her reasoning for being angry does not work for me, so I'm more on Oliver's side than Felicity and that really shouldn't be happening, because Oliver's being an idiot. 

 

Team Arrow has done nothing to save Starling the past season (it's as though other than Brick, there's no crime in Starling). They've mainly been focused on finding Thea's killer, Malcolm Merlyn, and Sara's death, saving Thea, saving Malcolm... this is why Felicity hasn't been helpful. Because there's nothing to do to help. Why would Felicity be helpful in regards to Merlyn? That's just silly.

 

In fact, if the Team actually focuses on helping Starling, then Felicity actually can do something to create a positive input. Otherwise I don't see why her expertise is needed. 

 

To say that Felicity hasn't been helpful to TA when Oliver was gone is kind of fallacious because even though she quit in episode 10, TA couldn't have managed without her in episodes 11 and 12. She was helpful in episode 1 when they were actually helping Starling, she was helpful in episodes 3 (Digg called for her help), 5, 8, 9... So yeah. When the team isn't focused on Malcolm, she's helpful. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

I know a lot of people here seem to think of Ray as a creepy stalker. I get that. I don't really see it that way, though I do understand where it comes from, but to each their own. Because of this I am in a minority of not being bothered by Felicity sleeping with him. She's an adult and doesn't owe anything to Oliver. I say go for it. What I absolutely do agree with is the bizarre tonal shifts between anything with Ray and virtually everything else on the show. It's like he's a character from a sitcom who wandered in from another show and no one noticed. And his whole dressing up scene couldn't be more a blatant ripoff of Iron Man if they sent an email sent to Marvel daring them to sue them. 

 

I don't think Ray is a stalker per se, but his past behavior towards her (coming to her home uninvited, walking into her home uninvited, pinging her cell phone to talk to her after she told him she didn't want to talk to him) puts some of this "romantic" stuff in a bad light. Like, maybe in some other scenario Ray walking into his living room in only a towel knowing Felicity was there might have been cute, or maybe believable that he just forgot to get dressed. But given the things he's done to pursue her and the way he talks to her, everything that led up to the sex in this ep just seemed so not genuine and squicky and IMO a little predatory? I mean, Felicity didn't do anything she didn't want to do, and I'm not trying to suggest that he coerced her or gave her unwelcome advances, it's just difficult to watch that when a character that I've legit come to love and care about over the past two seasons so obviously falls for a line (that I'm pretty sure wasn't supposed to come off as a line, but so did). 

 

And not only that, Ray took off and left her in bed to try out his suit that he specifically went to her for help with. She provided the chip to get it to work and fucked him into mindless oblivion enough for him to be able to clear the mechanism and figure out the last thing that had been stumping him, and he couldn't even be bothered to ask her if she wanted to see it work? I wish his Tony Stark wannabe ass had just crashed right into the ground without even a cab to break his fall like Count Vertigo v. 1.0. 

 

I don't really care that she slept with him - I get why she did it, I guess, but I just wish she had gotten something better. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Lady Calypso]

Team Arrow has done nothing to save Starling the past season (it's as though other than Brick, there's no crime in Starling). They've mainly been focused on finding Thea's killer, Malcolm Merlyn, and Sara's death, saving Thea, saving Malcolm... this is why Felicity hasn't been helpful. Because there's nothing to do to help. Why would Felicity be helpful in regards to Merlyn? That's just silly.

 

In fact, if the Team actually focuses on helping Starling, then Felicity actually can do something to create a positive input. Otherwise I don't see why her expertise is needed. 

 

To say that Felicity hasn't been helpful to TA when Oliver was gone is kind of fallacious because even though she quit in episode 10, TA couldn't have managed without her in episodes 11 and 12. She was helpful in episode 1 when they were actually helping Starling, she was helpful in episodes 3 (Digg called for her help), 5, 8, 9... So yeah. When the team isn't focused on Malcolm, she's helpful. 

 

Yeah, I get that and I agree with this. I don't know, there's just...something off about Felicity that I can't quite put my finger on, and I'm trying to figure that out. I know she's helpful, but...again, I tried articulating this in the Bitterness thread and I can't quite do it. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's because this season, they've been focusing too much on the season long arcs and not much on actually saving the city. Maybe they did too good a job of getting rid of bad guys and now there's not that many left? All I know is Felicity's role has been drastically reduced and it hasn't been treating her well. Also, I couldn't care less about Ray 'Iron Man' Palmer. 

[Password]

fucked him into mindless oblivion

My eyes!! How dare you out this image in my head! Oh my gosh I had to get up and walk around! Lalalalalalalala.

[wonderwall]

Yeah, I get that and I agree with this. I don't know, there's just...something off about Felicity that I can't quite put my finger on, and I'm trying to figure that out. I know she's helpful, but...again, I tried articulating this in the Bitterness thread and I can't quite do it. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's because this season, they've been focusing too much on the season long arcs and not much on actually saving the city. Maybe they did too good a job of getting rid of bad guys and now there's not that many left? All I know is Felicity's role has been drastically reduced and it hasn't been treating her well. Also, I couldn't care less about Ray 'Iron Man' Palmer. 

 

I guess I think it's unfair to say that Felicity has been unhelpful when Diggle has been equally as unhelpful. The only difference between the two is that Felicity's scenes have been a drag because her scenes are with Ray Palmer who is an actual non-entity. Those scenes drag because Ray adds nothing to the show therefore most of Felicity's scenes outside of TA are useless to the main plot. Felicity has essentially been removed from the core of the show which is why I think her scenes have been lacking. She's out of place there. It doesn't fit right. Therefore Felicity doesn't seem 'right'.

 

At least, that's my take on it. Otherwise Felicity has been kind of in character (not including Laurel and Ray propping)

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I get that and I agree with this. I don't know, there's just...something off about Felicity that I can't quite put my finger on, and I'm trying to figure that out. I know she's helpful, but...again, I tried articulating this in the Bitterness thread and I can't quite do it. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's because this season, they've been focusing too much on the season long arcs and not much on actually saving the city. Maybe they did too good a job of getting rid of bad guys and now there's not that many left? All I know is Felicity's role has been drastically reduced and it hasn't been treating her well. Also, I couldn't care less about Ray 'Iron Man' Palmer. 

 

My problem with Felicity isn't her behavior or the decisions that she's made (I haven't really disagreed with her thus far), it's when she's making them that are making me uncomfortable. Like that whole thing with her cleaning Ray's cuts that was not flirting but not NOT flirting while Oliver was dead. Going in on Oliver right after he came back from the "dead." And then last night, choosing to be with Ray while Oliver and Diggle were on their way to Nanda Parbat. Granted, she slept with Ray on the night Oliver decided to leave, but he did have to go to India, so she likely wasn't still with him while Oliver was doing whatever with Diggle in Nanda Parbat, but narratively it does come off that way. And that doesn't make her look so good. Not that she should put her personal life on hold for them or anything, but they should've at least taken a second to show that she was sitting in the foundry watching them via satellite or by tracker or something while they were infiltrating the League. Because they made it look like she doesn't care. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[ottoDbusdriver]

Watching Laurel flail around with that club while "attacking" Malcolm was just sad.

 

Ray+Felicity, I knew it was coming. I didn't hate it, it's just there, and it doesn't particularly bother me, but I agree that the difference of tone felt jarring.

 

Finally, Felicity gets laid.  Maybe she will stop making inappropriate Freudian slips all the time.

[statsgirl]

Felicity has been laid before, and it hasn't stopped the malpropisms.  What they just did here was ruin whatever fun there had been in Felicity's relationship with Ray.

 

The idea that sex with Felicity fixed Ray's mental block truly makes me want to vomit.

 

This really seems to be the 'lack of autonomy for women' season.  (Oh, Moira, you kickass woman, how I miss you.)  Sara was ambushed and killed, Merlyn brain-washed Thea, Oliver is still making decisions for her, Ra's passes over Nyssa, who is more badass than Oliver will ever be, and now Felicity is the needy woman who will go to bed with any man who is nice to her.  Laurel seems to be the only female character who can make decisions on her own.

 

 

Ray: I only think about you when I'm around you. The job is never on my mind

Next scene:

Ray: *goes back to work*

 

LOL, they definitely were contradicting themselves there, but I think it was on purpose. Still, hilarious. 

"Now that I've tapped that, I think I'll get back to work."

Aaaarrrrgh!

[AshleyN]

I don't think it's that simple. I think Oliver is terrified and he's been terrified since he was pushed off the cliff. He didn't even try to save his own life in the end, he just begged for Diggle's.

Yeah, it seemed fairly clear to me from that scene that Oliver's problem wasn't a macho/ego thing but, much like Ray, it was more about feeling helpless and vulnerable. Given this show's love of parallels and the fact that they're not exactly masters of subtlety I was surprised it wasn't spelled out more explicitly, but that's how it played to me. Especially when he said that the moment that keeps replaying in his head wasn't anything from the fight, but the fall, which is basically the ultimate feeling of helplessness.

 

It actually made Oliver's attitude toward Malcolm the last few episodes make a bit more sense to me in retrospect, because the biggest lesson Oliver has taken away from the countless traumas he's experienced thus far is that vulnerability means death, and not just for him but for the people around him. His response has been to forge himself into a weapon capable of handling just about any threat, but being so thoroughly outclassed by Ra's and nearly killed, aside from being a pretty major trauma in and of itself, was a reminder of his vulnerability and the fact that he can still be made to feel helpless. And the fact that it's apparently been haunting him ever since and he can't get the images out of his head makes it more understandable to me why he'd become obsessed with beating Ra's, to the point where he'd team up with Malcolm. Obviously I still think it's a bad decision, but it's a bad decision that comes from a place that makes sense to me. Also, Oliver acting irrationally due to his own fears and lingering PTSD is a more interesting story to me than the whole "MUST PROTECT THE WOMEN" thing, making it easier for me to forgive the bad decision.

 

If you think about it, it's kind of a step up from where he was last season, ready to just give up when he felt like he couldn't beat Slade.

Edited February 27, 2015 by AshleyN

[poetgirl925]

Overall it was a better episode I guess, but there are so many narrative issues at this point that I don’t think the season is going to be able to recover. I’ll start with the positives. It was nice to see Diggle get a chance to step up in this episode. I genuinely enjoy seeing Oliver and Diggle together, and no amount of Oliver + The Poor Man’s Justice League can make up for Oliver/Diggle time. The show really needs to stick with what worked instead of reworking things that didn’t need to be fixed in the first place. The EP’s obsession with new heroes and spinoffs is ruining the dynamic that made the show good, and a huge part of that was the way Digg and Oliver teamed up back in the early days. I loved their talks and the way Oliver could swallow his pride and learn something from Diggle every once in a while. That was what we saw here, and it was awesome.

 

I like that Thea keeps stepping up to take responsibility for her failures. She has had the most believable character growth this season IMO. She hated being lied to, and she seems to be trying to dispense with all the lies in her world, even when she’s afraid she might suffer in the process. She’s had solid emotional growth this season, and solid growth in her own journey, whether that ends up being part of a ‘hero’ journey or not.

 

I’m kind of happy that Felicity is not pining over Oliver because I absolutely hate pining. It irritates me ninety percent of the time because most shows can’t pull it off. It’s been a super irritating thing on The Flash, and I dreaded seeing it in play on this show. I don’t even hate the fact that she’s trying to move on/date/whatever with whomever. I didn’t even mind Ray that much in this episode. That being said, I don’t care about Ray and Felicity because this is all too rushed to be believable, and too many emotional beats were skipped along the way. They’ve been ping-ponging between Oliver/Felicity and Ray/Felicity, and I’m just tired of all of it. I also don’t get the feeling that this was all for Felicity’s benefit as a character, which makes it much harder to buy into. This was about selling a new character and about putting the brakes on Felicity and Oliver, which they sped into too fast this season IMO anyway. So, while I still think it’s just a manufactured roadblock for Felicity and Oliver, or she’s rebounding, or who even knows with these writers, the main problem is I don’t care too much about Oliver and Felicity any more either. If that was what the writers were going for, then good job. If not, then that’s a problem. If it were believable, I’d probably like them dating other people or not dating at all (as long as they don’t revisit Laurel and Oliver – I can’t with that cringe worthy train wreck.) All I know for sure is that the Arrow writers suck at romance. Really, really bad lol. They need more women in that writer’s room if they want to try to play with emotional/romantic drama. If they do intend to swing the pendulum back to Oliver and Felicity, I hope it’s not this season because the emotional beats on this show give me whiplash.

 

Ray was kind of okay this episode, but haha – he’s literally the Arrow world’s Iron Man lol. The show doesn’t really do anything original. Oh well. At least I don’t actively dislike him, and he’s doing this for honorable reasons, so I’ll give him a chance. Or ignore him. Whatever. 

 

And now the bad. I’ll start with Laurel and get it out of the way. The fact that she called Malcolm “Stupid” made me laugh and laugh because she has been a one woman suicide mission for many episodes now. Laurel has redefined ‘stupid’ this season. In fact, someone should buy Roy an “I’m with Stupid” t-shirt for the times he’s unlucky enough to be paired with her in the field. How the hell did she think she’d be able to beat Malcolm Merlyn? How? But I’m forgetting the fact that Laurel doesn’t think – ever – about anything, apparently. She rushes in with little forethought or planning, and she’s only alive because other people have saved her or she’s gotten lucky. They put her in the costume, and she’s still the damn DiD. Smh. I’m against needless fridging of women, especially female heroes, but I think I’d probably do a victory dance around my apartment if Laurel bit it this season. The best part of seeing her in the Canary costume now is the anticipation of watching her get her ass kicked around the screen. That fight with Malcolm was just embarrassing. I hate this Black Canary arc so hard and the fact that they turned a comic character I love into this hot mess. Ugh. I also need for her to GTFO of the Arrow cave if she’s just going to barge in and argue with Oliver all the time. There are people I believe have earned the right to call him on his bullshit, but she’s not one of them. I would have backed her up on calling him on any amount of his bullshit from seasons 1 and 2, but she needs to butt out of the hero stuff because she has shown, repeatedly, that she lacks the ability to look at the big picture. Also, she can invoke Sara's name all she wants, but I don't believe that Sara would want her death 'avenged' if it meant that people she cared about, like Thea, were hurt in the process. Just saying - the fact that Laurel can't see this means she didn't know Sara very well at all. This is why her 'vengeance path' rings so hollow. 

 

But if there is one thing I hate more than anything, it is the entire plot of season 3. None of it makes any sense at all. Malcolm drugged Thea into killing Sara, which guaranteed that Ra’s would be all up in their business. It only makes sense if he believed Oliver could beat Ra’s, but that’s clearly absurd since Malcolm can beat Oliver. They needed that Oliver/Ra’s duel to be a repeat of Season 1 so that Oliver could make a comeback or something? They’ve recycled so many of their own plots this season that I’m losing track. The main thing is that they needed Oliver out of the way so the new heroes could step up because they thought Oliver was dead. But the new heroes just let the city be taken over by a petty crook and still needed Oliver back for the big battle, so what exactly did they accomplish while he was gone? But I digress – back to the Ra’s plot. This was all building to another confrontation with Ra’s, and what happened? Ra’s told Oliver he wanted him to be the next Ra’s al Ghul. But… why? Oliver didn’t last long in that fight, and he should really be dead. Dead, dead, dead. He got stabbed and fell off a cliff but was cured with stitches and penicillin tea. It was complete nonsense even for the comic book world. So why the hell would Ra’s want Oliver to be his heir? Oh, that’s right – because he wanted Batman to take over for him in comics, and Oliver is Batman in this universe. Right.

 

The entire season is basically “Because comics” – it makes no other sense than that. They’ve pretty much lost me this season. I can’t decide if I want to stop watching now or stop after the next episode to make sure Diggle gets back to his baby. I suppose the Thea/Nyssa confrontation might be interesting. I think we have a couple of weeks before the next new episode, right? I guess I’ll watch if I can remember it’s back on then. If not, I’ll probably just binge it this summer so I can decide if it’s worth watching next season.

Edited February 26, 2015 by poetgirl925

[Lady Calypso]

My problem with Felicity isn't her behavior or the decisions that she's made (I haven't really disagreed with her thus far), it's when she's making them that are making me uncomfortable. Like that whole thing with her cleaning Ray's cuts that was not flirting but not NOT flirting while Oliver was dead. Going in on Oliver right after he came back from the "dead." And then last night, choosing to be with Ray while Oliver and Diggle were on their way to Nanda Parbat. Granted, she slept with Ray on the night Oliver decided to leave, but he did have to go to India, so she likely wasn't still with him while Oliver was doing whatever with Diggle in Nanda Parbat, but narratively it does come off that way. And that doesn't make her look so good. Not that she should put her personal life on hold for them or anything, but they should've at least taken a second to show that she was sitting in the foundry watching them via satellite or by tracker or something while they were infiltrating the League. Because they made it look like she doesn't care. 

 

 

I guess I think it's unfair to say that Felicity has been unhelpful when Diggle has been equally as unhelpful. The only difference between the two is that Felicity's scenes have been a drag because her scenes are with Ray Palmer who is an actual non-entity. Those scenes drag because Ray adds nothing to the show therefore most of Felicity's scenes outside of TA are useless to the main plot. Felicity has essentially been removed from the core of the show which is why I think her scenes have been lacking. She's out of place there. It doesn't fit right. Therefore Felicity doesn't seem 'right'.

 

At least, that's my take on it. Otherwise Felicity has been kind of in character (not including Laurel and Ray propping)

 

Ok, these are two very valid points, and I do think I agree with you. I was trying to figure out my feelings on Felicity for a while and was just throwing out possibilities, but these two seem to sum up the majority of my very disorganized thoughts. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by jessied112

[SonofaBiscuit]

 I can’t decide if I want to stop watching now or stop after the next episode to make sure Diggle gets back to his baby. 

 

Well, I follow spoilers, so I can PM you if you wish :)

[poetgirl925]

Well, I follow spoilers, so I can PM you if you wish :)

 

Haha - I might take you up on that. I don't think they're dumb enough to kill off Diggle, but then again, who knows. I do know if Diggle dies at any point, I will burn the Internet down. He is, like, at least fifty percent of the reason I'm still watching, and he and Moira were the two characters that kept me watching in season one. I honestly thought about dropping the show after the first two or three episodes. 

[tarotx]

The main problem I had with this episode and the last few, is Felicity comes off like Laurel last Season+. I can't ever enjoy her. Her main character energy for me was she lit scenes. Now she depresses everything or is with a character that doesn't interest me and seems out of place within Arrow.. His purpose seems to be to show the audience and Felicity that Oliver isn't perfect but others can be what you need. Which is a good thing in real life but Oliver is the lead of this show I have watched and I don't care to see this non Oliver be everything Oliver isn't. And to top it off he's also a Perfect version of Tony Stark. I don't care about Ray.I like watching Oliver and Tony Stark. Ray almost seems like a parody.

Edited February 27, 2015 by tarotx

[Actionmage]

After bringing up how he has live with the guilt of knowing that both Robert and Moira died because of him,

 

I need someone to make Oliver understand that he did not cause his parents' deaths. That is squarely on Malcolm ( again!) and Slade. Yes, both are batshit crazy but both are also grown-ass men who seem to understand the concepts of "right" and "wrong", how else do you describe their out-sized plans of revenge?  Someone has wronged them/done evil and that person/those people are going to pay. Not in Oliver's hands at all, even though I get where his thinking is coming from. Until he stops with that self-blame, he will likely not find the peace he says he's looking for.  Which also leads to...

 

•Thea isn't killing her bio-Dad - she is turning him over to Ra's for his crimes. No need for guilt there.

 

The Show was agreeing with Oliver that Thea's soul would be lost/tarnished/ruined by send Malcolm to Ra's, most likely a death sentence.  Well, what no one on the show asked was: "What if she has no guilt?" Looking at the swath of pain and destruction- and not just to her own family, but the city, Thea can objectively feel okay about Malcolm getting some form of justice, answering for some of his crimes.  Will she feel giddy and happydance like Baby Groot? Probably not, but it was a reasonable response to handling Malcolm, imo. 

 

That the Show wants Oliver to over-marinate in this angst over obvious and really dangerous men is telling about the showrunners. That they have turned an enjoyable mix of action, humor, and soapy drama into a slog within half a season is disheartening.

 

edited because "mean" doesn't = "men"

Edited February 26, 2015 by Actionmage

[Password]

Erm well, I would watch Oliver in therapy for half a season. Someone can help him overcome his survivor's guilt. I'm sure Dig has a number for an army therapist. Help him out Dig.

[Lyndy]

Mkay, this is probably beside the point but last night's episode made me wonder: Isn't Oliver still broke? How is Diggle earning a living since the wife appears to still be on mat leave? And Roy is still a busboy (or something) at Thea's club so presumably he works at night which is a tiny conflict since those are prime vigilante hours. I realize this is slightly beside the point but it's really starting to bug me. 

 

If the showrunners consulted me (as they obviously should), I'd tell them to ditch the flashbacks and the League of Assassins. I mean, I know lots of y'all love Nyssa but damn I can't wait to see the back of her. So. Much. Overacting. And I pretty much fast forward through all flashbacks now and I don't think I've missed a thing.

[kismet]

Erm well, I would watch Oliver in therapy for half a season. Someone can help him overcome his survivor's guilt. I'm sure Dig has a number for an army therapist. Help him out Dig.

I did tweet something about that last night. I mean the way he described the guilt of his parent's death on him... as well as how many other deaths? Hes a ticking timebomb of guilt, self-hatred, and gosh knows what else. No wonder he's having an identity crisis, his options are probably unthinkable to him. The man needs someone to talk him through it. Therapy only works if the person wants to actively work through their issues. So perhaps it might not work as well as we hope. But that poor man, someone needs to help him process his emotions & thoughts. If not Dig, maybe Barry can recommend someone. If Quentin didnt hate him again, maybe he might know of someone. I don't need to actually watch the therapy sessions, although those could be fun every once & awhile like on the Sopranos. But just knowing that he is going would be enough for me.

[Trini]

On a completely shallow note: I don't think I've ever seen Brandon Routh with scruff, and he should do that look more often.

 

Also serious Chuck flashbacks, because Routh has already done an "oops, I just got out of the shower and forgot to put a shirt on, now I'll make out with the lead's love interest" scene already.

[NoWayOut]

Oliver was quick to bench Diggle when baby Sara was born but didn't even flinch when Diggle offered to accompany him on his suicide mission. They weren't going off to fight the run of the mill villain of the week, they were heading off to take on the League of Assassins for goodness sakes. There was a good chance they weren't going to come back alive.

 

The very person whose soul he's trying to save is asking him not to go and he leaves anyway. I'm sure Thea could handle the guilt of handing Malcolm over to the league if it means her brother doesn't get killed via dumb decisions.

[benteen]

I need someone to make Oliver understand that he did not cause his parents' deaths. That is squarely on Malcolm ( again!) and Slade. Yes, both are batshit crazy but both are also grown-ass men who seem to understand the concepts of "right" and "wrong", how else do you describe their out-sized plans of revenge?  Someone has wronged them/done evil and that person/those people are going to pay. Not in Oliver's hands at all, even though I get where his thinking is coming from. Until he stops with that self-blame, he will likely not find the peace he says he's looking for.  Which also leads to...

 

The Show was agreeing with Oliver that Thea's soul would be lost/tarnished/ruined by send Malcolm to Ra's, most likely a death sentence.  Well, what no one on the show asked was: "What if she has no guilt?" Looking at the swath of pain and destruction- and not just to her own family, but the city, Thea can objectively feel okay about Malcolm getting some form of justice, answering for some of his crimes.  Will she feel giddy and happydance like Baby Groot? Probably not, but it was a reasonable response to handling Malcolm, imo. 

 

That the Show wants Oliver to over-marinate in this angst over obvious and really dangerous men is telling about the showrunners. That they have turned an enjoyable mix of action, humor, and soapy drama into a slog within half a season is disheartening.

 

edited because "mean" doesn't = "men"

 

You're right about Oliver and his father.  His own father blew his brains out (after murdering someone else).  That was his decision, not Oliver's.

 

Now I didn't like the revelation that Oliver went after Ra's because of his ego.  That speaks very poorly of him as a person.

[fantique]

This episode made me feel like the writers don't like Oliver Queen or maybe never wanted to write a green arrow TV show. Or maybe out of the group the ones that weren't as enthusiastic about it are now at the helm while others like Berlanti are with the flash and probably Supergirl.

 

I know what bothered me in the scene where Felicity was trying to reason with him about Merlyn.

1) While she was trying to make her, extremely, freaking valid point, Laurel cut her off and quite literally pushed her to the background.

2) They should've just had her stay silent and angry while watching Oliver give stupider and stupider responses and just show her walking out as the others kept on trying. I guess, I am ok with her and Oliver having issues holding her back from each other but I don't appreciate it when it's portrayed as if her importance to the team is lesser. The proof that she's not being petty is that when he asked her to find Merlyn once he heard Thea's plan, she did it because she understood he was thinking of Thea. Her trigger is Oliver doing dumb shit for Malcolm for seemingly no real reason. His struggle over the Fall finally offered an acceptable explanation (for me) but she doesn't know that.

 

The whole point of her even considering touching Ray with a ten foot pole is that she feels Oliver is a lost cause, her not saying anything and basically saying f*** it would've been better. It might even had made me more receptive to her seeking out Ray, someone who actually respects her opinion and expertise. The fact that even with all their efforts to make him seem better, all I see him is as a poor man's Oliver with Iron Man envy is a testament to the writers' incompetence. Basically when they love a character and want to tell his origin story, they screw it up... I will concede them one thing, with her disillusion over Oliver seemingly betraying his principles by working with Merlyn, I can understand why a socially inept, boundary ignoring with zero ability for deceit would be an appeal. At least Ray will be as advertised.

 

Just had a Eureka moment: You know how Oliver has had like 2 shirtless (AND NO SALLY) scenes max all season for some unfathomable reason? I just realised it was probably because if we had Oliver fresh in our mind and then they show Tony St- oops, I mean Ray with his 1-pack and his mini salmon ladder, we would be like "That's what triggered her physical awareness of him? She is more likely pinch his cheeks for being in the junior league".

Disclaimer: not calling BR inadequate in any way, he has nice arms I guess. I just don't find his physique exactly impressive enough to be able to distract a girl, though EBR sells it well. I don't know...

Edited February 27, 2015 by fantique

[Sakura12]

I just saw a gif of Nyssa telling Laurel that Sara laughed in Ra's al Ghul's face. That is awesome and shows me that this version of Ra's al Ghul is a joke. Sara who had just survived her second shipwreck and spent time with a mad scientist and super powered madman just laughs at Ra's al Ghul showing his supposed "power". Sara was a true BAMF.

[Kromm]

Sigh.

I hate that they had to crib this storyline intact from Batman. I mean using Ra's in the first place threatened that, but Ra's motives and goals being EXACTLY identical to some very famous Bat-stories is... too much.

[wonderwall]

Sigh.

I hate that they had to crib this storyline intact from Batman. I mean using Ra's in the first place threatened that, but Ra's motives and goals being EXACTLY identical to some very famous Bat-stories is... too much.

It's to the point that the writers are embarrassing themselves for their lack of creativity

[BunsenBurner]

I just have one question. When Merlyn and Ra's were talking did Ra's say they were together in 1854? That Merlyn worked for him then?

Edited February 27, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[apinknightmare]

I just have one question. When Merlyn and Ra's were talking did Ra's say they were together in 1854? That Merlyn worked for him then?

 

No, he said he came across an illusionist who was dazzling - then he came across the same man 50 years later and he was dying. He said the magician can shake many things but one (death, I guess).

[Ang]

It's to the point that the writers are embarrassing themselves for their lack of creativity

Yes, this. They recycle dialogue, they recycle plots, they crib from other franchises, and, as mentioned, their grasp of the English language leaves much to be desired. If I wanted to watch batman or iron man, I'd put on the movies for myself.

I didn't even mean to start out with a complaint - I didn't mind the episode! I actually thought it was a bit of an improvement. At least stuff happened, I guess? I really appreciated the Thea stuff, anyway. The Secrets and Lies were getting tedious.

This did cement for me an idea I've had percolating for a while. There's been talk of

Olicity being of the endgame variety, and elswhere MG gave Olicity a 50/50 chance.

Between that and what we saw in this episode, I wonder if they're putting their eggs in two baskets, so to speak, and repeating beats with both Felicity and Laurel so the emotional status of the show is similar no matter which 'ship you're on. I noticed it last season with both Laurel and Felicity getting emotional speeches with desperate hugs near the finale, both women being present with Slade at the end, etc. The fast forwarded Olicity relationship this season has ended with it being on similar footing as Lauriver. Felicity got her heartbreaking line in 3x12, Laurel got hers in this one. I'm here for Felicity so obviously I find her lines more compelling, but the parallels are there.

[apinknightmare]

This did cement for me an idea I've had percolating for a while. There's been talk of

Olicity being of the endgame variety, and elswhere MG gave Olicity a 50/50 chance.

 

 

Could be, but I don't think he said that as any kind of a tease. He said that he answered that way because anything else would give something away, and he wasn't going to give anything away. 

[catrice2]

The episode was ok.  I agree about Diggle going with Oliver. I'm glad he did, but surprised that Oliver didn't protest as much.  Roy is just a big bore, and I could do without Thea being so much a part of everything.  So Ra trains Nyessa and Malcolm, Oliver can't beat Malcolm, but he can beat her?  So much for showing strong females.  She should have wiped the floor with him, after all, she did take down Malcolm.  Amazing how few people Oliver and Diggle ran into at the compound. 

 

I fast forwarded through a lot, but Ray and Felicity does not bother me. I like the Felicity character, but I don't feel, like others, that she is  essential to the success of the show, nor do I think the romance with Oliver is the most important thing. I am more invested in Oliver and Diggle and Oliver realizing his true purpose and how he wants to portray himself.  Oliver has slept with so many women in front of her (and expected her to be friendly to them) that I just can't worry about her having a relationship without him.  T

 

I didn't think of Ray's actions as showing a stalker, but showing that he and Felicity were similar in that they are both socially awkward and sometimes do not pick up on social cues.  I am not sure if it is the actor or the writing, but the Ray character is boring. Overall, however, I also find Felicity boring. 

 

Not sure what happened with Laurel, I will have to go back and watch. 

[BunsenBurner]

thank you @apinknightmare for answering my question. My 5 y o nephew got sick at that point and I just deleted the whole thing so missed it.