S03.E15: Nanda Parbat

[Hook75]

I'm actually surprised that more people don't seem to be angry about this. Seems like most of the people I follow who would get up-in-arms over it responded with a resounding "meh." Maybe TPTB did a good job of preparing everyone? Or maybe Ray is just that bland. 

 

 

 

 

I think most people saw it coming a mile away so they were prepared. What TIIC are doing to Felicity is just sad.

 

t was so clearly written as she thinks Oliver has just gone off to his death...again...because at least in part he wouldn't listen to her telling him he was going to get himself killed.

 

 

A perfect opportunity for her to fight for his "soul" at least once before she moves on completely. Last time he DID died (well, kinda) so she sent "the love of her life" to his death again? no ILY, no kiss? no "I'm not leaving if you aren't leaving"? "I don't want to be safe, I want to be unsafe with you"? Damn, she used to be so much stronger! WHERE is this Felicity? SHOW him that he is being insane, SHOW him what he has to live for!

Edited February 26, 2015 by Hook75

[Sunshine]

Yeah, there's definitely a reverse double standard going on. There was much more rage over Oliver and Sara hooking up last year, which I don't understand, because neither Oliver and Felicity had acknowledged any feelings for each other back then. Yes, Oliver's "I love you"s this season  have been all talk and no action, but he did say it.  

I think people have been expecting this to happen because Oliver/Sara happened last season.  Oliver and Sara were totally unexpected.  Felicity & Ray not so much.  They have made no attempt to hide the fact that Ray was going to be a love interest for Felicity.  It's the final sweeps episode.  I think people were just more resigned.

[AyChihuahua]

 

I'm actually surprised that more people don't seem to be angry about this. Seems like most of the people I follow who would get up-in-arms over it responded with a resounding "meh." Maybe TPTB did a good job of preparing everyone? Or maybe Ray is just that bland.

Anyone who has ever watched television in their lives, like in any country or any time period ever, had to know it was going to happen.  One of the biggest cliches on tv.  I wouldn't care at all if it had been pretty much anyone other than Ray.  Barry, Cisco, Joe, Caitlin, Quentin, Iris, Nyssa...shoot, Gerry her EA would have been better than Creepy Ray.  

[patchwork]

This plot line is just so dumb, not even Dig getting some screen time and Katrina Law could save it. Merlyn even admitted that as an archer Oliver had no chance against Ra in a sword fight so what the hell was the point of sending him to fight Ra in the first place? Merlyn had no way of knowing Death would spit Oliver back out like over cooked spinach. 

The more Oliver nattered on about saving Thea's soul the less I believed it. This isn't about Thea it's about not ruining the image he has of her.

 

Malcolm Merlyn dying is not a bad thing there's nothing the show can do that will convince me otherwise especially when so many other characters have to act OOC and down right stupid to make it happen.

 

The one thing I did like was Thea and Roy bonding and that we saw that he hadn't just shrugged and moved on after finding out the truth but that he's helping out the cop's family however he can.  

[quarks]

Atom arrives! For a moment 15 episodes in the making, that was....underwhelming. I think we all need to stop and applaud Flash for a moment for at least wrapping up their flying superhero introduction in five episodes. Go Flash!  And Oliver gets to be R'as Al Ghul which is another batshit twist I am totally behind!

 

And then there was the rest of the episode. Low expectations meant I enjoyed most of it.  And yet.

 

Good things:

 

1. Oliver and Diggle, back in the field together. Talking together! Diggle doing stuff! MORE OF THIS, SHOW! Twitter agrees with me - Oliver and Diggle were trending.

 

(On the other hand, as someone else watching the episode with me pointed out, this just made the decision to keep Diggle behind in the Arrow Cave during the Laurel arc look even worse in retrospect.  Stop wasting Diggle and David Ramsey.)

 

2. Everybody now knows everything. Well, except for Quentin who is quite understandably not talking to anyone, and after this episode I'm on his side.

 

3. Nyssa and Oliver!

 

4. Oliver and Diggle just marching up to Nanda Parbat, knowing that Ra's knows that they are coming. Oliver is all, we have to be on alert, they'll see us! Cue flaming arrows! I laughed. It was good to see someone take advantage of Oliver's lack of planning.

 

5. Diggle and Lyla's conversation. I kinda think they both should have been thinking more about the baby, but on the other hand, a healthy, happy relationship between two consenting, not at all creepy adults on this show is such a rarity I'll take it.

 

6. Roy and Thea's two conversations. Those were nice.

 

7. Nyssa is really hot. I feel this needs to get pointed out more.

 

8. Ra's wants Oliver to become Ra's! YAY!   This means lots of shirtless scenes in that hot tub, right?  Also, lots of assassins zipping around with scarves. I AM FOR THIS.

 

Questionable things:

 

1. I don't know why Ra's thinks that Oliver would be a good Ra's, unless he's thinking of all of the killing Oliver has done.  Has anyone actually talked to Ra's about Oliver's days at QC?

 

2. Roy continuing to watch that cop's family from his car like does anyone on this show have a basic sense of boundaries?  Anyone?

 

3. I get that finances aren't everyone's chief concern at the moment, but exactly how does closing Verdant up like that help in the long term? Also, this sort of thing is exactly why you should be trying to make your secret location actually secret, Oliver.

 

4. Oh, god. Someone's going to kill that little kid in the next episode, right? Speaking of which:

 

5. What exactly is going on in Hong Kong? They had Oliver and the Yamashiros in custody. Then they let them go, apparently without giving Oliver Queen his passport back. Then, although Oliver is now completely free and could call his mother to get the family jet to Hong Kong, he instead strolls gently down to the docks to get on a ship to Japan even though he hates boats. I get the boating fear, Oliver, but Hong Kong has an airport. Why not use it?

 

That's just the Oliver side of things. If Amanda Waller really is behind this dock attack I got nothing.  I mean, nothing.

 

6. Show, I know you think you needed to have Felicity in Ray's apartment for their sex scene, if only so that later we won't squawk that "OMG Felicity and Oliver are going to have sex where Felicity and Ray did."  Especially since some of the earlier complaining was that, gasp, Felicity had dared to kiss Ray in what had once been Oliver's old office.

 

The problem is how you got there. Up until now, Ray has been building the Atom suit at Palmer Enterprises, because that's where all the material that he needs is. Including the clown targets.  So why the hell is he building this now in his apartment, which does not have all of the gadgets or people who can help him (like Felicity) right next to priceless paintings?  We needed a sentence or two to bridge that, and we didn't get it. 

 

Speaking of Ray's apartment...

 

Bad things:

 

1. Show. I get that you're on a tight budget, but in the name of every television god in creation, hide your sets better.  Dressing up the QC set as Ray's apartment does not work when that's the second most recognizable set on the show, the floor is still the same, some of the furniture is the same, you have to move your cameras around to hide where you have your "elevator" on that set, and the trick windows are the same.  No one, even Ray Palmer, is going to be keeping a Vermeer that close to windows that break that easily. 

 

2. It was great to finally have Oliver admit that what was really driving him since his return was his fear of falling off that cliff again. What was a lot less great was the issue that nobody involved except Diggle took the time to talk with him about that, and even Diggle waited until Oliver was virtually out the door to start that conversation, and in chains to actually have it. I get that Laurel was too angry in this episode - but she wasn't in previous episodes.  Felicity was still willing to work with him, so she's not that angry either (more on that in a bit). Roy's not angry at all. This could have been an entirely different - and better - episode with those conversations.

 

3. Ray/Felicity. I have problems with a lot of this, but my chief problem is that, just as in "The Climb," it felt like this entire plotline belonged to a totally different show.

 

It makes absolutely no sense for Felicity, even in a rebound relationship, to leave the Arrow Cave when a League of Assassins person is in a cage there. If they had lampshaded this at all - had Felicity said something about being uncomfortable there, whatever - I would have been fine.  But they didn't. They even left Laurel, of all people, hanging around, even though Laurel, unlike Felicity, was just on record as being completely against Oliver in this episode, and even though Laurel, in this very episode, was just easily taken down by the League of Assassins. Granted I have no idea what Felicity would have actually been able to do in this situation, but for Felicity to trot off at this moment to take care of Ray was just off.

 

And then there was the plot/tonal problem. Nothing in those scenes fit in with the rest of the episode. It was like an uncomfortable retread of the issues with Laurel last season.  Everyone else in the show, even Lyla, is discussing/focused on guilt, vengeance, and justice, and there's Ray Palmer...well, ok, he did have that one scene where he discussed feeling helpless, but we already did that with Laurel just a few episodes ago.  Not to mention that Felicity, who generally spends her time worried whenever Oliver is out in the field, and who, the last time Oliver did something like this, came off as calm and virtually cheerful even with two of her friends heading off to Nanda Parbat. As much as I haven't been a fan of Felicity crying whenever Ray's around, I think this is one scene that would have worked better with the rest of the episode if Felicity had been freaking out, with Ray calming her down.

 

Having said that, the main reason this didn't work was because Felicity should have been working with Oliver and Diggle at this point. Or at least chatting with Laurel and Nyssa.  Especially since she did help when Oliver asked her to.  As I said, they weren't on bad terms in this episode - which is one reason why the Ray/Felicity stuff felt forced.

 

Laurel:

 

On the bright side, Laurel actually got to say some sensible and intelligent things this episode. Let's applaud!  Also, she correctly pointed out that Malcolm, not Thea, is to blame for Sara's death, and tried to talk some sense into Thea, which was nice if completely unappreciated since there's absolutely no reason why Thea should listen to Laurel, of all people. But still! Let's applaud!

 

And then there was everything else:

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a human being: 1. Telling her father that hey, it's only been a week since he found out his daughter's been lying to him about the death of his other daughter, and impersonating that daughter, so they should totally hang out! 2. Seeing Nyssa in a cage, and making it all about her.  3. Seeing Nyssa in a cage, and not bothering to offer the poor woman soda or something. 4, making her fight with Oliver about how she can barely remember how she was ever in love with him, which, first of all, it's not clear that you ever were in love with the guy, and more importantly, your past relationship? Not what's important just now.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as a vigilante: Let's see, Laurel: earlier this episode, you saw Malcolm easily defeat both Oliver and Thea. You also know that Malcolm has killed several hundred people. Your solution to this is to...go and try to beat him up with a stick. I...I got nothing on this, except gratitude that the League of Assassins stepped in to save us all.

 

Number of times Laurel fails as an attorney: Let's see, Laurel: previous episodes have established that, as the ADA, you have the authority to call in cops to arrest people.  Malcolm Merlyn, last I checked, has been accused of mass murder, among other crimes, and more than any person on either show deserves to be arrested.  Don't listen to Oliver's "No prison can hold him" crap.  At the very least attempt arrest before the stick.  Or pay attention to the League of Assassins, because however questionable their leadership transfer process might be, they do arrest people like Malcolm Merlyn in style.

[Rina99]

The post here have finally helped me pinpoint me about what's bothering me about Ray/Felicity/Oliver.  Put me down as someone for whom the Oliver being in love with Felicity thing came out of nowhere, and still makes no sense.  So on that point, I don't give a crap about Felicity sleeping with Ray, if it means that I might be spared more of the overwrought drama that has become their relationship.  

 

What bothers me is that I realize that this story line is similar to what happened on Beauty and the Beast during Season 2 (shut up).  For some reason, the writers decided to make Vincent an idiot, and then have this new male character suddenly become the embodiment of all things perfect in a man, and kept having Vincent dumped on for pretty much the entire season and make poor decisions to suit the plot.  I quit watching that show, and it's not a good feeling to see those same parallels here.  Look, I find Ray kind of creepy as well, but clearly the writers don't.  

 

Either way, I'll gladly take Ray and Felicity if it means I never have to watch another scene grind to a halt as Oliver and Felicity have various melodramatic conversations that the writers think I prefer to see instead of real scenes of friendship.  If less Felicity with Team Arrow means more Oliver and Diggle, I'm all for that.

[foreverevolving]

I can't tell if it's because I'm exhausted after only 30 min sleep and two trimester finals, or it was the fact that we guessed most of the stuff this episode, but very few moments got a reaction from me.
The entire offer thing was BS and the second i saw it i wanted to actually pull my hair out, it was a total rip off batman and i don't even read comics.

The fun stuff: Fakanary getting her ass handed to her, twice. Once by Malcolm, the second time by Nyssa telling her to GTFA.
The only really shocking moment was Thea offering herself to Nyssa,

Since i know it is short term, i am fine with Ray and Felicity banging and dating a bit, girl needs some action, and Ray is a hot nerd.

Edited February 26, 2015 by foreverevolving

[catrox14]

I really loved Diggle telling Oliver he's basically his new brother.  I did get some feels with that one.  Diggilver = OTP

I don't kno. much about the Atom but for some reason I thought he was supposed to shrink?  Why is he flying around other than being FakerMan?

[BkWurm1]

I've actually seen more disgust for Ray tbh, more than I was expecting. The implications that he told Felicity everything she needed to hear before getting her into bed. And basically screwing her and then leaving to play with his suit which is clearly more important to him. Mostly though everyone is resigned and meh about it. 

 

Personally I have been dreading Raylicity but now that it's happened I really don't care. 

It's so paint by the numbers it is hard to care. 

 

That said I can't say that it played like Ray smooth talked her into bed, used her and left.  It to me played more like she was trying to save him from himself and took the distraction he offered (anything better than waiting to hear that Oliver is dead again - I don't think she knew about Diggle).  As for Ray getting up after and going to work on his suit, it was played like because of her he was inspired and thus completed his suit...though he didn't even bother to wake her up when he went to go test it.

 

I think because all he did was test it I was very underwhelmed.  Nobody except the audience even saw it happening so, good for Ray if you care about Ray but not so much so not so much.  At least the mask did darken in use.  He really did look like Robocop though for a second. 

 

The thing with Ra's wanting Oliver to be the new Ra's is just so hamfisted and dumb.  It's clearly ripped from the Batman comics and such a commonly talked about storyline that those who have never read the comics have heard about it.  It's not shocking because if he goes to to Nada Parbat the options are kill him or make him somehow a part of the LoA and since Nyssa was getting no support, and clearly Ra's admired Oliver last time before he killed him (almost) it isn't surprising for Oliver to get the same offer that Batman was offered.  It's also a dumb plot line because if the show does take him up on his offer then there never will be a Greeen Arrow (until Connor steps up I guess)  and the show is over or at least a huge waste of anyones time while he refigures out that heading the LoA is bad and involves killing so just a massive out of place retread of watching Oliver relearn what he had not cause to unlearn. 

 

In seasons one and two he was on a clear journey and you could see him learning and growing and now he's just in a spiral of stupid and contrived.  Everything feels like treading water until the show goes back to normal only the show claims it may never go back to normal which means it should be selling me on this new order of things and instead it's boring me.

 

Laurel was good with Nyssa but then Nyssa was awesome with everyone.  Beyond that Laurel is just weirdly there - everywhere but in the way.  If Oliver didn't want her in the lair, he really shouldn't have given her the new passwords when Argus retrofitted Verdant.

 

Nothing about this show has me excited.  I'm not so upset over Ray and Felicity, I'm not even that mad about Laurel, I'm just getting to the point where I don't care and that's because they've taken away everything I do care about.  Even Diggle was a damn stupid enabler.  Why is Oliver so dumb this year?  Why is he now certain the video tape Malcolm made isn't a problem?  I could have supported that reason to save Malcolm.  I could have even supported the knee jerk instinct to keep him in the country but to go to NP just makes me think he and Diggle are too stupid to live and I throw my hands up in the air.  These aren't three dimensional characters anymore.  They are just puppets with idiots pulling their strings. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Chaser]

I'm whelmed.

 

Everything just kind of happened. 

[wonderwall]

I'm surprised there's not more Felicity backlash like I was expecting?

 

More people are happy that she finally had sex. :p

 

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

[manbearpig]

Definitely interested in seeing what happens with Thea and Nyssa. The rest? Not so much.

 

Don't care about Felicity and Ray. Can't deal with anything Oliver is doing around Malcolm, so...yeah. Don't understand why Ra's doesn't just chop Oliver's head off. Yeah, Ra's is claiming he can't be around forever, but surely people finding out that the head of the League of Assassins can't even kill someone properly would be bad for his reputation. Just give the League to Nyssa!

 

So...presumably Malcolm is going to survive? Are they just gonna be all 'Ra's is cool with letting Malcolm live because he needs Oliver because...?' Whatever.

 

Still love Thea, Laurel and Diggle.

[calliope1975]

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

 

But I thought MG's reason for living was to piss off viewers or whatever dumbass thing he's said recently.

 

I'm also thinking this F/R relationship isn't going to be short term. Lord knows they've drug out this stupid Ra's/Merlyn stuff all season. 

[closer2fine]

But I thought MG's reason for living was to piss off viewers or whatever dumbass thing he's said recently.

 

I'm also thinking this F/R relationship isn't going to be short term. Lord knows they've drug out this stupid Ra's/Merlyn stuff all season. 

 

If they choose to make BR a series regular for S4, I can 100% see them keeping them together until at least next November sweeps.

 

That said, it just felt inevitable, but unearned.  And I'm pissed that Felicity was wearing red. 

[wonderwall]

But I thought MG's reason for living was to piss off viewers or whatever dumbass thing he's said recently.

 

I'm also thinking this F/R relationship isn't going to be short term. Lord knows they've drug out this stupid Ra's/Merlyn stuff all season. 

 

Nah, R/F has totally been made to be short term. Why? Because Felicity didn't go to Ray out of her own volition, it's because Oliver literally pushed her to Ray. That's not what long term relationships are made of. Every time R/F have a moment, it's always because of Oliver screwing up. Felicity going to Ray is just her reacting to what Oliver's doing. It's not about Ray for Felicity. And what I hate the most is that her going to Ray is not even about herself which is so terrible. Felicity going to Ray is a reaction to Oliver. And I it's definitely not what I wanted for Felicity.

 

To Felicity, her relationship with Ray will always come back to Oliver. That's why her relationship with him won't last long. 

[Password]

Which is what annoys me. It's not actually about Felicity finding a nice guy and dating him. It's about Oliver being stupid.

[calliope1975]

Nah, R/F has totally been made to be short term. Why? Because Felicity didn't go to Ray out of her own volition, it's because Oliver literally pushed her to Ray. That's not what long term relationships are made of. Every time R/F have a moment, it's always because of Oliver screwing up. Felicity going to Ray is just her reacting to what Oliver's doing. It's not about Ray for Felicity. And what I hate the most is that her going to Ray is not even about herself which is so terrible. Felicity going to Ray is a reaction to Oliver. And I it's definitely not what I wanted for Felicity.

 

To Felicity, her relationship with Ray will always come back to Oliver. That's why her relationship with him won't last long. 

 

I guess my question is if Felicity is using (though perhaps unconsciously) Ray to replace Oliver because Oliver is being a dickbag, and it doesn't appear the Show is done punishing Oliver and have him make stupid decisions, why would Felicity break up with Ray? You know, other than it being the season finale and the plot dictates that Oliver wins the war even if he's lost every battle. 

 

Your right, though, that none of this is about Felicity and that's what's so disappointing to me. I would love a scene where she realizes she is replacing Oliver with Ray and that she deserves more than that, even if it's not with Oliver or Ray. I'd also love an acknowledgement of Ray's creeposity. Maybe we'll get some sort of revelation when Mama Smoak comes to town. 

 

Oh man, I just realized I'm so over R/F and I haven't even watched it. How am I supposed to deal with them visiting The Flash when that show was my haven away from this season on Arrow?

[statsgirl]

We debating about which bad trope it is -- the one that's short term because Oliver just rejected her, or the one that's long term because these writers won't do anything but angst in Oliver's relationships. That's just sad.   They know how to write a good relationship, they did it with Diggle/Lyla, just like they know how to write a good story because they're doing it with the 2.5 comics. They just won't do it where we want it, on screen with Oliver.

 

I've actually seen more disgust for Ray tbh, more than I was expecting. The implications that he told Felicity everything she needed to hear before getting her into bed. And basically screwing her and then leaving to play with his suit which is clearly more important to him. Mostly though everyone is resigned and meh about it.

In my headcanon, sex with Felicity makes you smart.  That's why Oliver needs her before it's too late for him this season, although after this episode, it may already be too late.

 

 

1. Show. I get that you're on a tight budget, but in the name of every television god in creation, hide your sets better.  Dressing up the QC set as Ray's apartment does not work when that's the second most recognizable set on the show, the floor is still the same, some of the furniture is the same, you have to move your cameras around to hide where you have your "elevator" on that set, and the trick windows are the same.  No one, even Ray Palmer, is going to be keeping a Vermeer that close to windows that break that easily.

For me, it was the light.  I try to put my own paintings where light can't reach them and ruin them, and I'm nowhere near to Vermeer territory.

 

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

Why not write it better if they were worried about it?

 

It's so paint by the numbers it is hard to care. 

-

The thing with Ra's wanting Oliver to be the new Ra's is just so hamfisted and dumb....   and the show is over or at least a huge waste of anyones time while he refigures out that heading the LoA is bad and involves killing so just a massive out of place retread of watching Oliver relearn what he had not cause to unlearn.

Oliver taking him up on the offer is ridiculous if we believe what the show has been trying to tell us for 2 1/2 seasons because the League of Assassins are, you know Assassins, and Oliver is on a no-kill policy.  Also, his whole purpose was to right Robert's wrongs and save Starling City. Is he just going to hand the list over to Roy and Laurel?  Doesn't that mean he's not honoring his father?

 

I still don't know why Amanda Waller would go to those extremes to have an untrained unwilling Oliver Queen on her team, and now its' the same for Ra's. Surely, out of all those assassins, there must be someone better than an unwilling Oliver Queen?  The show has become like on of those Boys Own stories, where the orphan finds himself the missing son of a titled family.

Edited February 26, 2015 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

I thought I would rage about Felicity and Ray, but while I certainly don't like it, I just feel apathy. It didn't even feel romantic or meaningful. It was just there. I am glad it happened because now I can officially start the death watch.

 

I'm glad we got some decent time with Oliver and Diggle (even if the setting made no sense). I just need an episode with Diggle and Felicity now. 

[quarks]

I'm surprised there's not more Felicity backlash like I was expecting?

 

More people are happy that she finally had sex. :p

 

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

 

They should be worried.

 

Taking this to the relationship thread.

[Carrie Ann]

Ray/Felicity. I have problems with a lot of this, but my chief problem is that, just as in "The Climb," it felt like this entire plotline belonged to a totally different show. [...] Granted I have no idea what Felicity would have actually been able to do in this situation, but for Felicity to trot off at this moment to take care of Ray was just off.

 

And then there was the plot/tonal problem. Nothing in those scenes fit in with the rest of the episode. It was like an uncomfortable retread of the issues with Laurel last season.  Everyone else in the show, even Lyla, is discussing/focused on guilt, vengeance, and justice, and there's Ray Palmer...well, ok, he did have that one scene where he discussed feeling helpless, but we already did that with Laurel just a few episodes ago.  Not to mention that Felicity, who generally spends her time worried whenever Oliver is out in the field, and who, the last time Oliver did something like this, came off as calm and virtually cheerful even with two of her friends heading off to Nanda Parbat.

 

Yes, this tone issue really threw me off in this episode. The stuff everyone else was dealing with--Roy and Thea and their guilt, Nyssa and ugh Laurel and their grief, Oliver and Diggle and their Crazy Mystical Journey to the Underworld. It made Ray and Felicity seem like silly little kids, playing around. There are no stakes for Ray Palmer. There is no gravity (har har) to his story. And Felicity being her silly self with him was not refreshing, the way I think the writers want it to be. It just felt...wrong, and disconnected, and like it belonged to a different show. The Oliver in that pit--still so bonded to Diggle and devoted to Thea--and the Felicity in that high rise have no common ground anymore. It will be...interesting to see how they manage to bring them back toward each other, because right now, I feel no connection between them at all.

 

Anyway, otherwise, I found this pretty underwhelming, in terms of surprises. But I did really like the Oliver/Diggle stuff, the Thea stuff, and the Roy stuff. Colton Haynes continues to do a good job with what he's given, and he and Willa Holland play so nicely off of each other. I feel so much more for them together now than I ever did in previous seasons. So, that's ONE relationship the writers have managed to improve.

[Sunshine]

#SaveFelicitySmoak is trending

[Password]

Oh man, I just realized I'm so over R/F and I haven't even watched it. How am I supposed to deal with them visiting The Flash when that show was my haven away from this season on Arrow?

Nooooooooo! I totally forgot Ray is going to The Flash. Agh oh my word.

[Trini]

 

Speaking of Ray's apartment...

 

Bad things:

 

1. Show. I get that you're on a tight budget, but in the name of every television god in creation, hide your sets better.  Dressing up the QC set as Ray's apartment does not work when that's the second most recognizable set on the show, the floor is still the same, some of the furniture is the same, you have to move your cameras around to hide where you have your "elevator" on that set, and the trick windows are the same.  No one, even Ray Palmer, is going to be keeping a Vermeer that close to windows that break that easily.

 

Thanks, quarks! Now I have a reason to watch this episode.

[kismet]

Almost didnt post something after this episode, because it was just so predictable & meh. Its the first time ever I can recall ever being excited for a hiatus, because I feel the time off will be a good thing as Im losing interest in what is happening on the show. Maybe Ill care again in a few weeks. At this point, I dont understand why OQ didnt just accept the offer from Ras. If u cant beat them, join them right? Dont ask me to comment on how sexist it is that Ras wants to skip over his own daughter for OQ.

 

Anyway, all the big gamechangers and epic moments were all predicted on this forum, or were derivative of other shows/movies. Nothing was really earth shattering or original. It was fun at points, but let's face it - we've all seen this episode before some other place. Heck even the spoiled lines weren't even that hard to figure out. I wish you could bet on shows, cuz I would have made a killing this episode the way it was so connect the dot, color by number.

 

Worthwhile to watch OQ/Dig bromance, MM get some of what is coming to him & Thea/Roy scenes were good. LL also got beat up again this time by MM that was a lil fun sadly.

 

Dumb moments that will make me seriously question the writers - Raylicity post-sex scene as prelude to suit unveil. A little too much overcompensating. I knew there would be lunge 2.0, but every R/F moment felt forced & nauseating. Thea turning MM in without strategically thinking about it. Ras wanting to just pack up and retire, I know its hard to be the big bad. But really, u could have just mentioned this the last time and saved the make-up dept a new scar. The cage? Really, was that another argus upgrade?

 

Its always darkest before the dawn is what SA said about Olicity, I hope he meant it for the series too. Because literally my response after watching that might have been "wait, what" but not in a good way. To put it kindly, I was more excited by the Insurgent promo than anything else that came up in the 8-9p slot.

[Actionmage]

Felicity's dress was pretty and so is Nyssa.

 

That is the 4th try because I devolve into rants.

 

Thanks, TIIC.

[fantique]

First impression: What the bloody hell is happening!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I am so confused right now.

[wingster55]

Then, although Oliver is now completely free and could call his mother to get the family jet to Hong Kong, he instead strolls gently down to the docks to get on a ship to Japan even though he hates boats. I get the boating fear, Oliver, but Hong Kong has an airport. Why not use it?

 

I thought he was just saying goodbye. 

[quarks]

Thanks, quarks! Now I have a reason to watch this episode.

 

I will say that "spot the set" has become an entertaining game for both Arrow and Flash. At least this episode we didn't have to deal with Caitlin getting assaulted in a car lot on Flash followed by someone else getting assaulted right next to the same cars on Arrow.

 

Bring Microsoft back!

 

 

I thought he was just saying goodbye. 

 

I thought they said he was going to Tokyo with them on the boat, thus the "I hate boats" comment and their invitation to have him stay with them before he flew out from Tokyo.

[RachelKM]

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later.  But for now, what I got from that is that Ra's is the Dread Pirate Roberts.

Edited February 26, 2015 by RachelKM

[pigs-in-space]

 

Why is Oliver so dumb this year?  Why is he now certain the video tape Malcolm made isn't a problem?  I could have supported that reason to save Malcolm.

 

Yeah, that throwaway line really bugged me in the moment.  You just admitted Malcolm blatantly used you a month or two ago, leading to your near-death.  What changed since then?

[Pete Martell]

I'm actually surprised that more people don't seem to be angry about this. Seems like most of the people I follow who would get up-in-arms over it responded with a resounding "meh." Maybe TPTB did a good job of preparing everyone? Or maybe Ray is just that bland. 

 

ETA: I realized this might come off as me trying to talk you out of your irritation with Felicity - not my intention. I'm just genuinely surprised more people aren't angry/riled up about it.

 

I'd guess some of it has to do with the poorly written, rushed, overly melodramatic nature of the "Olicity" relationship this season - that's a good way to make fans disengage. Many fans of the pairing are strong Felicity fans, and since she hasn't really done anything bad, they aren't going to be mad at her, especially given Oliver's choices. There's also that both Felicity and Oliver act the way they act to drive story, not because of characterization. When characters become plot-driven, it's easier to just say, "They wouldn't do that, I'm ignoring it, I don't care." 

 

The fans who never cared about "Olicity" are likely not that upset either - they're probably more bored over the whole thing than anything else. 

 

It's all too lackadaisical to invest in good or bad...I'm not even sure what reaction they want viewers to have. Do they want viewers to cheer at Felicity being passed around from one spinoff (or potential spinoff) leading man to another? 

 

I can't wait to see what story they have lined up for her if they ever do an Elongated Man spinoff...

[thuganomics85]

 

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later.  But for now, what I got from that is that Ra's is the Dread Pirates Roberts.

Ra's would have been way more entertaining though, if he was played by Cary Elwes.

 

Seriously, I kind of hate picking on him, but I really wish I could see what the producers apparently saw in Matt Nable.  He just doesn't feel like a big bad or ultimate threat.  Ra's and Malcolm in the same screen should have been huge, but, despite my annoyance with Malcolm, I thought John Barrowman easily overshadowed him.  Malcolm and Nyssa had way more tension and intrigue.  All Ra's does is just make me miss Slade.  Even during some of the weaker moments of S2, I at least knew Manu Bennett was always around to command the screen.

[apinknightmare]

I will say that "spot the set" has become an entertaining game for both Arrow and Flash. At least this episode we didn't have to deal with Caitlin getting assaulted in a car lot on Flash followed by someone else getting assaulted right next to the same cars on Arrow.

 

Bring Microsoft back!

 

I actually thought that he was living AT the office in a suite or something. Didn't he finish the suit at home? Then did he drive over to PT to get on top of the building to fly off of it? Or did he fly off his own apartment building over to PT and then fly off of that? 

 

Why am I asking, I don't even care about Ray.

Edited February 26, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

So is Thea in the clear now?

 

Also, I am not a Twitter person, don't even have an account, but I followed #Arrow to see what was happening.  It didn't seem particularly busy, but I could have just been using it wrong.  I do the same with The Walking Dead, though (I can't watch an ep without knowing what happens because I get really freaked out), and that Twitter is usually so busy I can't even keep up.  This thread was barely moving, but did I miss something re how Twitter works?

A lot of the stuff coming across my feed had no hashtags. I think it was a little mini way of protesting. People were just venting a lot... Im not sure people really wanted to trend anything, it just seemed like people wanted to talk about the show without feeding the numbers system. But there was a lot of hate towards ray & felicity together which is probably why that trended. The most positive stuff about the episode I saw was all related to Oliver/Dig relationship. It was definitely not like other arrow nights on twitter. Nobody was really surprised by anything, or at least there were no tweets that implied epic, game-changer, OMG, jaw-dropping.

[quarks]

All of the Ray/Felicity scenes this episode were in his "apartment," which was actually the CQ set with the trick windows and back walls on their main soundstage, not at all well disguised.  My guess is they didn't want to have any future Oliver/Felicity issues if the two of them later make out someplace on the QC set.

 

I think he went up to the roof of his apartment building and then flew around. I think inviting Felicity to at least watch some of this would have been nice, but Ray's really not all that big on manners, so that was in character.

[TrueMyth]

 

The problem is how you got there. Up until now, Ray has been building the Atom suit at Palmer Enterprises, because that's where all the material that he needs is. Including the clown targets.  So why the hell is he building this now in his apartment, which does not have all of the gadgets or people who can help him (like Felicity) right next to priceless paintings?  We needed a sentence or two to bridge that, and we didn't get it.

When he took off for his little flight, he was on top of Palmer Technologies.  Apparently he LIVES in the building?  Seems odd, but I'm glad they did it, because you're right that it seems totally off for him to suddenly move his suit building stuff into his home while he's been totally cool building it in his office all season.

 

I liked the password = password bit, and Felicity rushing in and being all take charge and awesome with Ray was great because it totally came off to me as a reaction to how she wanted to respond to Oliver... except because she has no sounding board, I really don't know why she doesn't take charge with Oliver anyway.  There were a couple times where she came at him and he was totally listening to her (hackles raised, but listening) and a season ago, she would have pressed and he would have listened or change his approach.  But then she just crumbled, wilted, and let him do what he was going to do.  It sucked.

 

I really do feel like, if it had still just been Felicity and Diggle in the cave, they would have talked Oliver around to what was really driving him.  Felicity was on the verge and Diggle knew what was going on.  Some how, having Laurel there, even though she was talking truth, just made those scenes go nowhere.

 

So, the one thing I've been looking forward to since the whole "I'm gonna team up with Merlyn" idea was Oliver doing some badass sword training.  And he didn't even take his shirt off? I was so sad.

 

It will be interesting to see what tone they end up landing on with the whole "save Thea's soul" debate.  It's totally patronizing and Laurel's defense of Thea was maybe the first time that I really saw her standing up against women being used by men... although I really feel that anyone else in this circumstance, besides someone like Thea, she'd still have blamed the tool a bit, too.  Oliver is damn right about how stupidly emotional Laurel can be.

 

However, I really want Thea to tell Oliver about what happened when Malcolm showed up to save her at the train station.  My girl fired right at his heart like a badass.  Sure, she has spent some time bonding with him since, but Thea totally has it in her to be a killer and it won't rip her up inside.

 

Finally, I don't see how Oliver can claim that this whole post-death drive to save Thea's soul is really true at all if he actually entertains the idea of becoming heir to the Demon's Head.  Not only would he then have to kill, but he's going to send out others to do it?  For years, and years, and years?  He's going to train people like Sara to kill?  Yeah, right!  What has changed that Oliver would be ready for that?  What about the people of Starling City who he swore to protect and never leave only two episodes ago?

 

I guess that is game changing... but... it really makes no narrative sense to me.

[kismet]

The post here have finally helped me pinpoint me about what's bothering me about Ray/Felicity/Oliver.  Put me down as someone for whom the Oliver being in love with Felicity thing came out of nowhere, and still makes no sense.  So on that point, I don't give a crap about Felicity sleeping with Ray, if it means that I might be spared more of the overwrought drama that has become their relationship.  

 

What bothers me is that I realize that this story line is similar to what happened on Beauty and the Beast during Season 2 (shut up).  For some reason, the writers decided to make Vincent an idiot, and then have this new male character suddenly become the embodiment of all things perfect in a man, and kept having Vincent dumped on for pretty much the entire season and make poor decisions to suit the plot.  I quit watching that show, and it's not a good feeling to see those same parallels here.  Look, I find Ray kind of creepy as well, but clearly the writers don't.  

 

Either way, I'll gladly take Ray and Felicity if it means I never have to watch another scene grind to a halt as Oliver and Felicity have various melodramatic conversations that the writers think I prefer to see instead of real scenes of friendship.  If less Felicity with Team Arrow means more Oliver and Diggle, I'm all for that.

Im with u on the BATB, they blew up that show so badly with what they did to Vincent... it took them a long while to fix that damage, not quite sure they have. Id hate to see Arrow continue down this path of stupidity. I also got wicked bad Chuck flashbacks of BR as Shaw and that was not any better... The difference between those shows & this one is there was a simple & plot-driven way to remove the bad plot/character from the storyline. Here its not as simple, since its not just Ray or the dumbing down of Oliver that are ur problems. Its a fortress of stupidity & melodrama that have seemed to build about around any possibly good storyline.

[steelyis]

Welp, I think Arrow just gave up on good pacing, good plotting, and common sense.

 

I honestly didn't know what to think after the episode ended. I knew what I just watched was bad, but the full impact of its awfulness was sort of incomprehensible -like quantum physics or electromagnetic field theory. I settled on laughing at how dumb the episode was and turned the channel.

 

I'll stick around until I see how Atom pans out. Frankly, Ray and Felicity's storyline was the only thing that didn't make me shake my head and wonder why I ever invested in Arrow in the first place. Sure, it was an Iron Man and Pepper Potts redux, but I'll take that over the Rescue Malcolm arc any day.

 

After that, I'm out.

 

(Hopefully Arrow can pull a Sleepy Hallow and escape its death spiral before the season finale and earn back some good will)

[KirkB]

I'm going to have to wait and comment fully because the weather made my cable go all wonky in the middle of the episode, but I did see Ray in his suit and all I have to say about it is...what the hell? Look, Brandon, I'm sure you enjoyed being Superman and were all excited to get another chance to fly, so I don't blame you for this whole mess, but a guy flying around in a knockoff Iron Man suit does not belong on Arrow. Seriously. Thanks to Flash I knew powers and stuff were going to seep on to Arrow because they're hard to avoid now, but if you insist on taking the show away from Oliver can't you at least switch the focus to the other people who have been there the whole time? Diggle, Felicity, Thea and Roy, hell even Laurel, because as much as I hate her being the Canary at least KC has been with the show from the beginning. Though her message to her father just kind of makes me hate her more.

Edited February 26, 2015 by KirkB

[fantique]

I am as big as fan of Oliver and Felicity as anyone but I LIKE that Ray and Felicity are together.  Right now, he is treating her better than Oliver has. 

 

Ray is putting her before the mission.  Until Oliver can do that, I’m all for Felicity and Ray hooking up.

Are we talking about the guy who went straight from having sex with her to go on being a rip off of Iron Man? I have zero comics cred, I waited two years to watch the Avengers (not impressed) and I still knew that was a complete and utter copy of Tony Stark.

 

My problem with this is that it's Ray. If Felicity had gone into a bar, got chatted up by someone and ended up sleeping with him, I would not care. I object to the partner being Ray. Olicity is like tertiary to me in importance. This is annoying because they won't be able to change how I feel about Ray and how they made Felicity orbit around his story instead of him being a part of hers. They should only do one major comic book origin story a season, it should have been about Laurel becoming BC and then A.T.O.M for season 4. With the storyline allocation problems they displayed both last season and this one, one would think that they would avoid over crowding especially when I think about us losing Moira and Sara and "gaining" 50 Shades of Ray. Ridiculous.

Edited February 26, 2015 by fantique

[Artsda]

 

I'm actually surprised that more people don't seem to be angry about this. Seems like most of the people I follow who would get up-in-arms over it responded with a resounding "meh." Maybe TPTB did a good job of preparing everyone? Or maybe Ray is just that bland.

I think they've turned off people generally this season, they've made people indifferent instead of having a strong reaction.  

[Password]

Funnily enough I'd be relieved if Felicity hooked up with a random, I am THAT must against Ray.

[Actionmage]

With the storyline allocation problems they displayed both last season and this one, one would think that they would avoid over crowding

 

In one of my earlier, more ranty tries at posting, I said that if the writers are having problems with the heroes they already have, they don't need to add more to their plate. But what do we know? We're just the unwashed, stupid masses, apparently.

[BkWurm1]

I'm surprised there's not more Felicity backlash like I was expecting?

 

More people are happy that she finally had sex. :p

 

Also, DocBrown said that the producers seemed really worried about the reaction to Ray/felicity and their scene... Yeah, great vote of confidence right there. smh. If they were worried why bother going through with it at all?

 

If their version of success is making everybody talk about what's happening, then the best possible result for Ray and Felicity is for nobody to talk about them. 

But I thought MG's reason for living was to piss off viewers or whatever dumbass thing he's said recently.

 

I'm also thinking this F/R relationship isn't going to be short term. Lord knows they've drug out this stupid Ra's/Merlyn stuff all season. 

 

Nah, I think that they are going to power through a bunch of things so they can start all over planning crap for next season. 

If they choose to make BR a series regular for S4, I can 100% see them keeping them together until at least next November sweeps.

 

That said, it just felt inevitable, but unearned.  And I'm pissed that Felicity was wearing red. 

Eh, the red looked more coral to me.  Another pale imitation. 

 

 

I still don't know why Amanda Waller would go to those extremes to have an untrained unwilling Oliver Queen on her team, and now its' the same for Ra's. Surely, out of all those assassins, there must be someone better than an unwilling Oliver Queen?  The show has become like on of those Boys Own stories, where the orphan finds himself the missing son of a titled family.

Are the Boys Own stories like the "Digging for Gold" story by Horatio Algers, the incredibly ridiculous plot driven crap pile they made me read in 7th grade.  Nothing happened for another reason than to drive the plot to the next point.  I ripped it to shreds when I was 13, I'm not going to accept it now. 

[BkWurm1]

Yes, this tone issue really threw me off in this episode. The stuff everyone else was dealing with--Roy and Thea and their guilt, Nyssa and ugh Laurel and their grief, Oliver and Diggle and their Crazy Mystical Journey to the Underworld. It made Ray and Felicity seem like silly little kids, playing around. There are no stakes for Ray Palmer. There is no gravity (har har) to his story. And Felicity being her silly self with him was not refreshing, the way I think the writers want it to be. It just felt...wrong, and disconnected, and like it belonged to a different show. The Oliver in that pit--still so bonded to Diggle and devoted to Thea--and the Felicity in that high rise have no common ground anymore. It will be...interesting to see how they manage to bring them back toward each other, because right now, I feel no connection between them at all.

 

Anyway, otherwise, I found this pretty underwhelming, in terms of surprises. But I did really like the Oliver/Diggle stuff, the Thea stuff, and the Roy stuff. Colton Haynes continues to do a good job with what he's given, and he and Willa Holland play so nicely off of each other. I feel so much more for them together now than I ever did in previous seasons. So, that's ONE relationship the writers have managed to improve.

 

I agree about the very weird tone between Ray and Felicity.  It felt like they'd filmed their scenes with no knowledge of the rest of the script...actually it feels like BR best bud filmed it from Ray's perspective and didn't care about how Felicity should be reacting. I'm sure her being upset or distracted would take away from the "fun" of the scene.  Bad form Ephraim.  Bad form.   

 

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later.  But for now, what I got from that is that Ra's is the Dread Pirate Roberts.

I guess that makes Ray Prince Humperdinck.   

[Actionmage]

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later.  But for now, what I got from that is that Ra's is the Dread Pirate Roberts.

 

Felicity is more Valerie/ Miracle Max, imo.

[CabotCove]

They can't do that, because Barry would be a real threat. Also, Barry would make an alarming amount of sense for Felicity to start a relationship with or even a friends with benefits situation.

 

What threat is that, the guy has got his own hit show for a very long time and three solid love interests in his own series. 

 

 

Marc Guggenheim said that Felicity could kill puppies and people would still love her.  I believe that he believes this, but between sleeping with Ray when Oliver has said three times he loves her (viewers are going to forget he walked away every time) and propping Laurel, she's taken a huge hit.

 

Well killing puppies would be going too far. 

They shouldn't have to sacrifice character growth for such misogynistic reasoning, "popularity" be damned. Its not real popularity at all if the character can't be accepted as a whole person. At some point female characters can't win anyway no matter what they do or don't do.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Conell

[BkWurm1]

Ra's  - Dread Pirate Roberts

Oliver - Wesley

Felicity - Buttercup (but not the exceedingly dumb one from the book version of Princess Bride)

Ray - Prince Humperdinck (pre evil version)

Malcolm - Count Rugen (the six fingered man)

Diggle - (this is not a perfect fit but he does want to avenge Andy) Inigo Montoya

Roy/Laurel - (again not perfect but since they are mostly just muscle and side kicks) Fezzik - though Fezzik is a much nicer giant.   

Thea - I think I'm going to go with the Grandson, since this this season for Oliver everything he does is supposedly on her behalf

Maseo has to be Miracle Max since it would take a miracle for Oliver to have survived

Tatsu - Valerie since she whipped up the penicillin tea

Quentin - Impressive Clergyman - his American accent makes him mumble

 

Seriously though, Ra's as Dread Pirate Roberts wanting to pass on his legacy to Oliver because it's the name that carries the fear, I swear this was one of the first floated ideas when the title of Nanda Parbat and The Offer were released.  It stagers me that the show runners think this is a startling twist.  Not to go this way would have been the original twist. 

Edited February 26, 2015 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

BkWurm1, now you have to turn that into fanfic :P