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S01.E06: Spirit Of The Goat

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A FAMILIAR VILLIAN RETURNS TO GOTHAM CITY ON AN ALL-NEW "GOTHAM" MONDAY, OCTOBER 27, ON FOX

 

When a killer begins targeting the first born of Gotham's elite, Bullock is forced to confront traumatic memories from a nearly identical case he worked in the past. Later, Gordon is confronted by past decisions in the all-new "Spirit of the Goat" episode of GOTHAM

 

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/listings/20141009fox01

 

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I'm thinking it's Zsasz?

Off by a week, it looks like.

I like that the MCU cops are honest, I don't like that they're as dumb as rocks. Just a little investigating would have turned up Oswald.

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I really enjoyed this episode. This is the first time that I have liked Harvey even a little. I recognized the psychiatrist from other shows so I figured that she was behind the killings somehow. Bullock is right that she is loony.

 

I don't understand why Gotham is so corrupt when cops can be arrested with a homeless person as the sole witness them committing a murder.

 

I felt for Alfred when Bruce said "who would they take me from?"

Edited by SimoneS
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I know I wasn't supposed to but I laughed at when the shrink got shot in the ankle and she flailed in pain.  And the last 30 seconds with Oswald's "Hiiiiii" and Gordon/Bullock getting ready to rumble.  

 

I guess Oswald is a real mama's boy with him being in the tub and she's washing him despite him being what, 30?

 

I don't mind Jada on this show, but without Fish on tonight, it wasn't as cartoonish. 

Edited by mtlchick
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Guest Accused Dingo

Best episode so far and i have liked all of them.

I loved the look on everyones face when Oswald walked into the police station.

Loved the fact that Harvey was once shiny and clean like Jim but Gotham beat him down.

Poor Enigma he was just trying to help. I like how they are playing him; a guy who wants to be noticed and recognized but is ingnored.

Loved the shrink reveal. Is she someone in the comics? Harvey didn't kill her right? I wouldn't mind seeing her again. I like a good female villian.

Edited by Accused Dingo
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I liked this episode.  A decent amount of creepy!  The Gordon/Cobblepot dynamic interests me.  Cobblepot sees Jim as a friend, though I'm sure that Jim doesn't reciprocate those feelings.  I keep thinking that these two are going to end up on the run together or something.  Both of them will probably need to hide from gangsters and corrupt cops at some point.

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Wow. Bullock actually solved a case. And then he ruined it by trying to cover up the story of Oswald getting killed.

 

In other news, it looks like there really isn't much to talk about when it comes to Eddie. He's like 90 degrees removed from Grant Gustin as Flash, in the sense that he's a dork, but he's not adorkable.

 

Hi, Selina! Damn, Alfred was an idiot for not locking the window, especially with The Goat running loose. BTW, how awesomely icky was the "Goat Watch" newswoman? It's like she got paid for every one-percenter that got killed.

 

Speaking of icky . . . hello, Ma Cobblepot! I don't know what's worse . . . the interaction in the tub, or the fact that the room seemed designed for mother/son tub time. And was anybody else expecting rubber ducks?

 

Is it wrong that I kinda want the MCU cops to get smacked upside their heads? They mean so well, and they probably have just cause in seeing James as another rotten cop, but they're not heroes like him. Interesting dynamic, that.

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One thing I appreciate about this show is that it doesn't stretch things out.

That last scene was fab!

Loved seeing Harvey being a good cop.

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Oddly enough, tonight Mom Cobblepot scared me more than Oswald ha ha.

 

I love the look of this show.

Edited by SoSueMe
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Ah, Nygma to paraphrase The Social Network, he's probably going to go through life thinking girls don't like him because he's a nerd.  I can say from the bottom of my heart that is not true-it's because he's totally creepy.

 

Like that they gave Harvey layers.

 

Nothing about the Goat, the Therapist, or even Nygma can compare to the creepiness that was Oswald and his mother.  NOTHING!!!  I expected her at any moment to join him in that tub. 

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Ah, Nygma to paraphrase The Social Network, he's probably going to go through life thinking girls don't like him because he's a nerd.  I can say from the bottom of my heart that is not true-it's because he's totally creepy.

 

Like that they gave Harvey layers.

 

Nothing about the Goat, the Therapist, or even Nygma can compare to the creepiness that was Oswald and his mother.  NOTHING!!!  I expected her at any moment to join him in that tub.

Kind of a Norman Bates/Mother vibe.

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Hokey smokes! Things got REAL when Oswald waddled into the police station and introduced himself!

It was interesting to see Nygma's story develop. That woman better be careful or she'll be his first victim when he snaps.

See, Barb? This is why Jim doesn't tell you anything. You're a blabber mouth.

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With Mama Cobblepot being that fierce a cheerleader, who needs girlfriends? The sweetest, actually nice gf Oswald could bring home would be labeled a painted whore and terrorized until she ran away!

 

Harvey being The Young Hothead was fun. I loved seeing Harvey being Not!Lackadaisical. I also loved that he knew not to hurt the pawn and was able to wing the Not-so-good Doctor in what appeared to be her heel! Essen's reaction was great! What was even better was her total belief in Harvey's side of things.  Then?

 

There had better be a Harvey-Jim slobberknocker to kick-off next week! They need to get that out of their systems because it looks like things are going to be insane!

 

It was good to see Dan Hedeya! He's looking good. I was thinking ( and hoping it wasn't) Dix doing the murders. I was hoping for a better motive from the hypnotherapist than 'Gotham is Evil!' Thanks for the newsflash.  Killing the rich's firstborn does nothing for the poor, so not so helpful.

 

I want to see more of Christine Kringle. She seems to be a smart cookie, regardless of Ed's opinions. Ed? Just because someone has a system different from yours? Not. Wrong. Go apologize and maybe ask her to explain her system so you can use it more efficiently.  But you're Ed, so it may take time for you to realize that.

 

I hope Barbara is still in town. If she went ahead and left after her big words to Montoya, I will be disappointed in her. Also? Out of the apartment for a bit! (Taking my victories where I can.)

 

Apparently Oswald feels he's safe enough to be so obviously out-and-about. I truly hope Maroni is behind this deployment. We'll see if this reveal is too soon or part of more elaborate machinations.

 

ITA on the feels, but for Bruce as well as Alfred.  The "who would they take me away from" gutted me! Ex-military Alfred probably couldn't have been gutted worse than that line.  I missed the significance of the box that Selina stole from the room. Was it mentioned earlier or was it just something small that Selina felt she could get away with taking?  I get the feeling she'll return it, but I'm not sure why.  I loved how she shot her head around when Selina heard Alfred's steps. MOAR Selina!

 

Just really enjoyed this episode and I'm excited for next week as well! Keep it up, Show!

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Ah, Nygma to paraphrase The Social Network, he's probably going to go through life thinking girls don't like him because he's a nerd.  I can say from the bottom of my heart that is not true-it's because he's totally creepy.

It really makes me wonder what version of The Riddler we're fated to eventually get.  Some

have been outright murderous nutballs as bad as this version of Cobblepot, and others have been harmless eccentrics who's crimes are petty, and who actually thinks he's helping people.  And many shades in between.

Hokey smokes! Things got REAL when Oswald waddled into the police station and introduced himself!

"Well that can't end well" is what I said.  Jim Gordon: Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

And this isn't going to make Montoya, who's portrayed as crazy obsessed here, any less against him.

 

Frankly this is a really disappointing Montoya--they're stripped all the complexity from her.

I liked this episode.  A decent amount of creepy!  The Gordon/Cobblepot dynamic interests me.  Cobblepot sees Jim as a friend, though I'm sure that Jim doesn't reciprocate those feelings.  I keep thinking that these two are going to end up on the run together or something.  Both of them will probably need to hide from gangsters and corrupt cops at some point.

As murderous as Cobblepot is,

this isn't completely at odds with some of the comic continuity.  Older comics Gordon at times seems strangely tolerant of Penguin.

Edited by Kromm
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I like that the show took time to explore some of the characters that we see weekly, but still don't know very well.

 

I thought Bullock's backstory played well, and I buy the progression from dedicated to self-protecting.  Dan Hedaya was a nice touch as the influential and bitter ex-partner.  This carried forward the idea that when genuinely innocent people are suffering Bullock isn't quite as lackadaisical as he is when criminals are in trouble.  He put forth real effort in this case.

 

And Nygma?  Don't lean in and sniff women as they pass.  Giant creeper red flag, not that Ed doesn't have others.  It was nice that he contributed to the investigation, though.

 

Oh, Oswald.  So dedicated to making an entrance.  I suppose now that Maroni knows and values him, he can be a little freer with news of his continued existence. 

 

I'm glad Barbara pushed for openness in the first conversation with Jim in this episode.  I want her to hold that line.

 

Regarding the therapist, does she seem like a potential

Harley Quinn to anyone else? While in theory the Joker should convert her to the crazy side of the fence, she wouldn't be a bad starting point.

 

 

I felt for Alfred when Bruce said "who would they take me from?"

 

ITA on the feels, but for Bruce as well as Alfred.

 

Yeah, that was a sad moment.  In spite of the progress they've made, I think Bruce is still tied to the notion of Alfred as a servant.

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I don't understand why Gotham is so corrupt when cops can be arrested with a homeless person as the sole witness them committing a murder.

 

The city probably hasn't hit rock bottom yet, which is why the MCU can operate and get judges to sign their warrants. And the fact that the city is so corrupt probably helps in getting the warrant, you just need one good judge and they'd be ready to believe the worse from the police.

 

Ah, Nygma to paraphrase The Social Network, he's probably going to go through life thinking girls don't like him because he's a nerd.  I can say from the bottom of my heart that is not true-it's because he's totally creepy.

 

Did I imagine it or did her actually smell her hair when she went by him that first time?

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I must say, Stately Wayne Manor has CRAP security in these early days, doesn't it? I don't care how good proto-Selina is, she didn't even have to dodge a single dog that we heard or saw, and there were no signs of motion detectors or pressure sensors on the way she came in.

 

Again though we have another episode totally confusing about what the world is like when this show is set.  Forties cars in the ten years earlier flashback.  A filing system with just paper folders.  But damnit I know we've seen tech in other episodes.  Or did I just imagine it?

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Well, I knew where the case of the week was going early on, because I easily placed Susan Misner (I know her from The Americans, Person of Interest, Nashville, etc.), so I knew she wasn't just going to be some therapist.  But, I did like that the case was more about Bullock this time, and seeing him actually step up, and show that he can be a good detective, before Gotham beat it out of him.  Also liked the casting of Dan Hedaya as Dix, because he is totally someone that can out-gruff Donal Logue.  I wouldn't mind seeing more of that relationship.

 

Finally got more of Nigma, besides just being a creep at the crime scenes.  Turns out that, surprise!  He's a creep at work too!  Poor Kristina Kringle.  I hope she avoids being one of his future victims.  But, hey, he did play a part in solving the case, so he may be a creep, but he is good at his job, for what it is worth.

 

I'm loving this gag of Oswald just crashing the party at the end.  Talk about perfect timing!  Not sure how this is going to impact Gordon with Falcone and Fish, but at least it will stop Montoya and Allen from tossing him and Bullock in the slammer.  Of course, Bullock is now pissed as hell, so I'm sure that is far from over.

 

The stuff with Bruce and Alfred, was just a filler, until Selina showed up to steal whatever that was.  I was wonder what was going to come out of her following them in the pilot.  It still feels like the show is treading water with these particular characters, so I hope they have a plan soon.

 

I have to say that, while I mainly was interested in Logue as Bullock (and he's great), Ben McKenzie really is impressing me as Gordon.  These "noble characters in a corrupt world", can be tiring at times, but he's actually making me root for Gordon to rise above it, and survive.

 

This was probably the most I liked Barbara, since she was firm but fair, with Gordon about being more open.

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Oh, Oswald.  So dedicated to making an entrance.  I suppose now that Maroni knows and values him, he can be a little freer with news of his continued existence. 

For his own personal safety, sure.  But even if Jim gets out of charges (he'd still be facing something for dealing with the mob even if it was against his will) his goose is presumably cooked with every single mobster who works for Falcone.  Or for Fish The Overdramatic. Unless she turns on a dime and decides to use this against Falcone somehow (to run with the idea that he's weak).  I could see her now telling Gordon and Bullock she's fine with what happened.

 

Of course the show probably needs time to get to that.  Bullock at this point should be bricking in his own pants, because in his mind he'd be Target #1 even before Gordon.  Even killing Jim probably doesn't stop that (which might be his short term excuse for not doing so, since he probably doesn't actually want to).

 

On another subject entirely:  The Cobblepot household bathtub scene?  VERY disturbing.  Yes, I know they totally meant it to be.

Edited by Kromm
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Great episode and the best one of the series.  Oswald's appearance at the end was awesome and I loved Harvey's behavior there.  Him giving a horribly convincing "I know you didn't do it, Jim" to him being pissed that Jim DIDN'T kill Oswald.  Oswald's "relationship" with Jim is going to continue to be a real highlight of this show.

 

It was definitely fun seeing Harvey as the good cop and hilarious when he shot that shrink in the ankle.

 

Nice to see Dan Heyada back, who despite being around forever still doesn't look that old.  I always remember him from the first thing I ever saw him in as the mob boss Mr. Costello from Wise Guys.

Edited by benteen

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I'm loving this gag of Oswald just crashing the party at the end.  Talk about perfect timing!  Not sure how this is going to impact Gordon with Falcone and Fish, but at least it will stop Montoya and Allen from tossing him and Bullock in the slammer.

Only in simple TV plot world.  In the real one I'd think he'd still be under some kind of corruption/conspiracy investigation.  Cobblepot being alive doesn't change that.

 

Then again... have we ever even MET a Gotham Internal Affairs officer?  Montoya and Allen being their proxy is getting kind of annoying.

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Well we went through a ho-hum episode to get to the lightning at the end. What an ending it was, and it was worth it. Bullock and Gordon ready to donnybrook as the Major Crimes Unit looks in stunned disbelief that Oswald Cobblepot, supposedly murdered, wasn't actually murdered. It was gold, all of it.

 

Although, an aside, I don't know how MCU would rely solely the word of a seemingly demented transient, but I let it go because they needed to speed things up. I think the big thing about for me and the MCU is that I'm hoping they're in alliance with Carmine Falcone or Fish or Salvatore Maroni or the Mayor or someone (or maybe do a heel-face turn now that they realize Gordon isn't as bad as they thought he was), because as far as I'm concerned, the show has done far too little for me to care about their existence. They seem like one-dimensional "bad guys" whose only role is to be a thorn in Gordon's side, when really they should be more sympathetic since they do have a noble cause.

 

Liked Bullock angsting and actually being able to solve the case, as well as actually being able to win a fight this time. Far too often it's Gordon who steals the show making me wonder why they even bother with Bullock but tonight I know why.

 

Oh and, um...Mama Cobblepot? Just a little weird. Actually a whole lot weird. Felt a lot of sexual tension between the two, and I thought Carol Kane was hot and then...I remembered that Kane's playing Ozzy's mother. Well done show, well done.

 

Also gotta say, Robin Lord Taylor is absolutely stealing things- even when Ozzy doesn't do much on screen Taylor still makes him compellng. Breakout star for sure.

 

Chelsea Spack...wonderful actress (she was Kris Kringle, by the way). Loved how she would not put up with Edward Nygma's antics, because Nygma really was creepy tonight. I do hope we see Spack again, because I think Kringle was wonderful in that adorkable kind of way.

 

Speaking of Nygma...you had to feel sorry for him when Bullock kept shutting him up. Bullock may have had his reasons, but he was still pretty rude to someone he works with.

 

Didn't really dig the case too too much because it felt way too rote for me, but I did dig the hypnotist at the end (even if they telegraphed things with the clenched fist) and I gotta openly wonder if The Goat will provide an inspiration for Batman later, because that mask looked way too similar to the Batmask for me not to notice.

 

No Fish, no Maroni, no Falcone...great not seeing the crime bigwigs for a change, since I think- although appropriate for the characters- David Zayas and Jada Pinkett-Smith tend to make their characters a bit too campy at times, so it was nice to have an episode where everyone acts "real" for a change.

 

Kind of still not sold on Barbara Kean. Glad she showed some gumption today but it was still under the pretext of her being a "scared little flower" cooing to Gordon to make things better for her. She better get a real spine real quick.

 

...and finally, Catwoman! Carmen Bincondova really did show her cat-like reflexes tonight, although I wish they'd give her some lines for a change. I also wonder what's in that box she took.

 

Overall...nice work.

Edited by Danielg342
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I haven't been big on the AV Club's regular review of Gotham but the reviewer pointed out just how ridiculous Montoya's investigation of Jim has been.  Oswald is not dead and has been running around the city.  Montoya also is relying on the word of an untrustworthy criminal like Fish and a homeless guy who came across as just wanting to say yes to anything the cops were asking him.  It really is a piss poor investigation she's been running, even if she is "blinded" by love.

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I haven't been big on the AV Club's regular review of Gotham but the reviewer pointed out just how ridiculous Montoya's investigation of Jim has been.  Oswald is not dead and has been running around the city.  Montoya also is relying on the word of an untrustworthy criminal like Fish and a homeless guy who came across as just wanting to say yes to anything the cops were asking him.  It really is a piss poor investigation she's been running, even if she is "blinded" by love.

It makes her look like an obsessive idiot. Which totally demeans a character that in the comics was a pretty good one (although 20+ years later and working FOR Gordon).

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BTW, anybody else look at Kringle and think "poor man's Felicity Smoak"? Not her fault that Felicity set the bar for girls with glasses. In lieu of a Team Arrow, I hope she has mace to ward Eddie away.

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For all the bathtub creepies, it's oddly coincidental the an even creepier version of the same thing showed on Blacklist.  Oh, wow.  My head was spinning.  Maybe a tad less sexual though.  Still, it was bizarre.

 

I think it's just personal for Montoya and hope she gets her ass handed to her on a plate, I really don't like her.  I do not think the girlfriend can reasonably ask to know all or half of what Jim knows; she's damn clingy and I don't like her. 

 

Harvey being a good cop was stunning and wow, he's still got deductive reasoning.  LOVED it, and him and that whole plot twist.

 

Was really surprised young Bruce didn't get a Jim visit asap, seemed out of character for Jim.  The closeups they do of Ben McKenzie's eyes are just...swoon worthy.  Alfred looks so much like an older Ben it always jars me, too.

 

To me, the best episode yet with by far the best cinematography.  And I gotta say, Oswald Cobblepot certainly does show up in all the right places in a very odd manner indeed.  Fascinating!

 

eta:

 

 

because that mask looked way too similar to the Batmask for me not to notice.

 

I thought this was anvilicious and also the shrink saying/believing that the city "needs" someone like this was complete foreshadowing for the caped guy.

Edited by Jlina
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...I felt for Alfred when Bruce said "who would they take me from?"

OMG the look on his face! He didn't have to say a word.

...Loved the fact that Harvey was once shiny and clean like Jim but Gotham beat him down....

So does Jim now realize Harvey is his future self if he doesn't keep to the straight and narrow?

But Jim saw Harvey is paying the bills for his old, injured partner, so maybe he will want to follow in his footsteps.

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Oddly enough, tonight Mom Cobblepot scared me more than Oswald ha ha.

 

I love the look of this show.

Same here.  I'm starting to enjoy the mash-up of decades going on in this world.  

 

Thought it was a great episode overall but I can't stand Nygma.  To me the actor is playing Jim Carrey more than creating a different/interesting take on the character, and I'm hoping he doesn't factor in too much in the future.  

 

I hope they keep similar pacing moving forward- nothing too drawn out, but still giving things enough time to marinate a bit.  

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One thing I think we've been underestimating a bit is that Gordon not only has to be on a path to live another 20 years, but also to be a future Commissioner. I think in a way this plotline could be steering towards that a bit.  Even if he possibly leaves the city and only comes back years later (say, if

Barbara dies

), he has to actually build a rep in Gotham. So I think it's got to go beyond him pushing Bullock towards and him solving the Case Of The Week each time.

 

Cobblepot is part of that, I bet, but MCU being embarrassed by all of this could be too.  

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I must say, Stately Wayne Manor has CRAP security in these early days, doesn't it? I don't care how good proto-Selina is, she didn't even have to dodge a single dog that we heard or saw, and there were no signs of motion detectors or pressure sensors on the way she came in.

 

Again though we have another episode totally confusing about what the world is like when this show is set.  Forties cars in the ten years earlier flashback.  A filing system with just paper folders.  But damnit I know we've seen tech in other episodes.  Or did I just imagine it?

Considering that the White House has been easily breached just recently with the bestest security on the planet, I think Bruce and Alfred can be forgiven a lapse.

 This isn't the first show to mash-up time periods in order to present a "look", but they could probably set some parameters. There are, though, still filing systems that utilize outdated paper and folders, and it's usually Government, so Kringle's rings true. I wonder if Kris becomes Librarian Barbara's mother, maybe even by Nygma, if the show goes for Jim taking in his niece rather than having a daughter?

 Not keen on the Goat thing. But all the ongoing plots with the recurring characters made it worthwhile. It may be a minority opinion, but I missed Fish.

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I might actually stick with this show. It's such an odd mix of the compelling and absurd. The Spirit of the Goat! I kept giggling throughout. Nothing more dignified?

 

Montoya, yes, not winning any laurels with that one.

 

And Barbara couldn't do anything but run to Montoya. Yeah, I wouldn't tell her anything. And didn't she meet Oswald? She could have just told Montoya that Oswald is very much alive.

 

I like Nygma. He's inappropriate but I find him charming. Well, except for the hair smelling.

But compared to Mama Cobblepot, he's fine.

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And didn't she meet Oswald? She could have just told Montoya that Oswald is very much alive.

 

Yes and no. She met "Peter", a "work friend" of Jim's.  She has never seen what Oswald looks like outside of meeting "Peter." Which frankly surprised me, as it would be a move Show!Montoya would pull. 

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Again though we have another episode totally confusing about what the world is like when this show is set.  Forties cars in the ten years earlier flashback.  A filing system with just paper folders.  But damnit I know we've seen tech in other episodes.  Or did I just imagine it?

About the filing, tell that to the Department of Veterans Affairs.

 

The guy playing Nygma is fantastic.  And his "love interest" is really pretty, I know I'm being shallow, but I thought it was Keegan Connor Tracy for a second.

 

I'll admit I kind of laughed when Oswald revealed himself.  It's the huge smile he had.

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I liked the episode. The end scene was brilliant and Bullock proved he can actually be a decent person and cop when he makes the effort.

The therapist's motives were no different to Balloonman and Viper guy but she was more interesting than both of them combined and it would be nice to see her again for another episode.

Gordon and Barbara, eh, their relationship stuff drags a lot. I like that Barbara wants to help but so far, it's not really working.

oswald basically screwed Bullock, Gordon, Montoya and Allen in one fell swoop with that entry at the last minute.

The scenes with his mother (that bath one especially) creeped me out big time.

Nice to have a breather from the Fish/Falcone/Maroni stuff this week.

Selina breaking into Bruce's place was interesting but was it really needed? Maybe with the box she stole but otherwise the episode didn't need her.

Loved the Nygma scenes, even if he did creep poor Kristen out, 8/10

Edited by darkestboy

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I liked this episode.  A decent amount of creepy!  The Gordon/Cobblepot dynamic interests me.  Cobblepot sees Jim as a friend, though I'm sure that Jim doesn't reciprocate those feelings.  I keep thinking that these two are going to end up on the run together or something.  Both of them will probably need to hide from gangsters and corrupt cops at some point.

 

I have a feeling this is why Cobblepot turned to a life of crime.

 

But I'm not digging the "I wanted to be friends, but you didn't and now I'm gonna turn bad" theme they're appearing to do for Penguin and Riddler.

 

Another thing I'm liking less and less with each episode is Barbara: she's becoming the needy, whiny girlfriend who can't understand why Jim can't tell her every. single. thing. that happens during his work day. Ick

. The sooner she gets pregnant and gives birth to the future Batgirl, the better....then they can kill her off or relocate her to some far away city.

Edited by Milz
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Another thing I'm liking less and less with each episode is Barbara: she's becoming the needy, whiny girlfriend who can't understand why Jim can't tell her every. single. thing. that happens during his work day. Ick

 

I normally hate that character type in police shows too, but in this case I think she's being reasonable. She's not asking for Jim to open up about the case of the week and tell her how his day is going. She knows he's being investigated for murder, she believes he didn't do it, but she also knows that Montoya seems to believe she has a smoking gun. It's reasonable for her to ask Jim what's going on. And Jim isn't really protecting her by clamming up. How is telling her, "I was forced to kill Cobblepot or else I would be killed myself but I faked his death" supposed to put her in any more danger than she already is?

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Speaking of icky . . . hello, Ma Cobblepot! I don't know what's worse . . . the interaction in the tub, or the fact that the room seemed designed for mother/son tub time. And was anybody else expecting rubber ducks?

 

I was more expecting the sponge to dip underwater, at which point I would have "ew"ed myself into the next room!

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Oswald is already bad from before Jim met him. He was working for Fish and so was no choirboy even then. Between the time Gordon fake-kills him and when he resurfaces as "Peter," Oswald has killed or seriously injured somewhere on the order of 4-5 people. (The fisherman who helped him out, one if not both of the frat boys who were foolish enough to give him a ride, the Fish henchman who recognized him, and the dishwasher who had the "right" shoes). The killing of the restaurant manager and his three coconspirators also happened. So even if Penguin claims that he went (more) crooked because of Gordon rejecting his friendship, he's kind of an unreliable narrator that way. 

 

As to Nygma, I hope they bring him more front and center. I think pretty much every other future Bat-villain (except for future Poison Ivy) has gotten a significant amount of screen time.

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I normally hate that character type in police shows too, but in this case I think she's being reasonable. She's not asking for Jim to open up about the case of the week and tell her how his day is going. She knows he's being investigated for murder, she believes he didn't do it, but she also knows that Montoya seems to believe she has a smoking gun. It's reasonable for her to ask Jim what's going on. And Jim isn't really protecting her by clamming up. How is telling her, "I was forced to kill Cobblepot or else I would be killed myself but I faked his death" supposed to put her in any more danger than she already is?

 

She's in danger because she's his girlfriend. Okay, I got it. But a girlfriend who knows something and who people know or suspects knows something is more in danger than a girlfriend who's clueless and everyone knows or suspects is clueless. And that's what Jim keeps mum: the less Barbara knows the safer she'll be and the safer he'll be because she won't go blabbing to Montoya or Harvey or whoever. Loose lips sink ships and she's demonstrated she can't keep her trap shut when she picked up the phone and called the press a couple episodes back.

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I'll admit I kind of laughed when Oswald revealed himself.  It's the huge smile he had.

 

I liked the grin, but the accompanying "Hello!" made it A Moment. I think 'Hello' is going to be A Thing, not that it would be terrible.

 

Loose lips sink ships and she's demonstrated she can't keep her trap shut when she picked up the phone and called the press a couple episodes back.

 

So one strike and she's out? One mistake and Jim needs to cut her out?  She isn't asking for minutiae of every case he's on. She has specifically asked about Oswald, due to Montoya being certain she had Jim on murder charges.  Charges sure enough to get a judge to sign off on a warrant. 

 

Barbara is left in the dark is not something I enjoy watching. I also don't want another Nagging Cop's Fiancee/Wife/SO; I can watch almost any other show on TV to see that trope. I just hope that the writers do something smart with Barbara.

 

For all the panic over 'The Firstborn of Gotham's Elite Being Killed!!!!', it tended to be pretty, young females that were killed. I may have missed the male deaths, but I only remember the dead girl of ten years back, the dead girl of the present, and "Miss Ember".  The women may have been first-borns of their families, but the supposed panic over 'first-borns' instead of 'elite first-born daughters' was betrayed by the writing.

 

I think I love the supervisor/nurse at Dix's convalescence home. Her reactions to Harvey and those magazines was great! I  hope we get another chance to see Dix in the future. Maybe Jim can visit to pick his brain about Harvey?

 

Selina breaking into Bruce's place

 

Is it really 'breaking into' somewhere when the doors/windows are wide open? ;p  I'd say Zeus and Apollo are needed, but Selina would probably win them over.

 

edited: punctuation

Edited by Actionmage
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On Barbara's danger, it really depends. 

 

I think she's owed at least the broad strokes of "There are gangsters on all sides of me who are putting pressure on me and who may kill or threaten me, you or anyone else I am close to. Plus the other cops aren't particularly willing to stick their necks out for me or to do their jobs properly and fairly either. There's basically no one in this city I can trust outside of you, and there's no one you can trust outside of me either. I'm not going to share everything that I'm going through because that knowledge in and of itself might put you in increased danger. But at least now you can make an informed decision as to what's at stake in our relationship."

 

I think without knowing those basic details, she's more liable to blunder into something or trust the wrong person or not have her defense shields up at the right time.

 

I am curious how much Barbara knows about Gotham. In other words, is she just naive as to how Gotham works in general? Blinded by being (apparently) part of the 1 percent that sees an entirely different Gotham than the one Jim has to deal with? Hopefully she will come to have some sort of existence independent of Jim, Montoya, her apartment, the steps of GCPD and future damsel in distress. 

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Guest Accused Dingo

Barbara suffers from girlfriend/wife syndrome her actions make sense in the real world but tend to annoy television watchers because our allegences aren't really with them. Others who have fit this are Skyler White and Rita Bennett. How dare they demand their husbands come home and take out the garbage or tell them about their day and do what any other husband/boyfriend would do.

I am not saying Barbara is right or wrong. I am just saying that asking her boyfriend to talk to her is not unreasonable. Especially if they are living term and basically living together.

Edited by Accused Dingo
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I may have missed the male deaths

 

The first killer was listed as killing 3 people, the middle one was male; of course it looks so much prettier to have attractive females hung up.  I think it was an almost wanting to be caught thing for the therapist since she used the same damn building as before.

 

I think Penguin developed a guy crush on Gordon when he came out back and made a feeble effort to stop the beat down and they will remain sort of friends.  I wouldn't want the guy for an enemy - well they will remain friends as long as Gordon doesn't know about the death trail.

 

I'd say "YEP" to one strike and you're out with Barbara, the idiot phoned the newspaper which in the real world could've cost Jim his job period.  She may think she's his confidante, but she's not and why is she so hell bent on knowing things?   And didn't she tell Montoya she'd tell her if something was off or some such. 

 

You either believe your fiance could and did kill someone, or you believe they couldn't and your ex druggie lesbian lover has a hard on for them.  To me, it's like she wants to believe he DID kill him and be in on the loop or something very very co-dependent like that.

 

Heck, she's supposed to be an "artist."  They are supposed to get lost in their "flow."  Not follow around their ex and current lovers whining.  She really needs to be a pampered Gotham wife, or move far far away.

 

eta:  I do think Montoya is acting beyond normal jealousy; why has Major Crimes found a way to focus on Jim since his first day basically despite the Captain backing him?  I think it'll be shown they have someone pulling their strings to do so. Other than the ex vs the current love interest, they should have no interest in Jim at all unless they "vet" new guys to be sure they're corrupt enough or someone told them to get rid of this one. 

Edited by Jlina
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At the end I was expecting the therapist to say something akin to "you are totally right, but you don't have a single shred of actual physical evidence to prove any of it" and then just walk away, but of course instead she has to sic that old guy on him and run thus giving Harvey just cause to arrest her. The most Harvey could do was ask the therapist to come down to the station for questioning unless he was smart enough to wear a wire, which he wasn't.


Snip

Responding in Barbara thread.

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I liked Nygma having a mug with a big question mark on it. Yes, I know that's pretty obvious, but I do like the way they tuck in the transforming parts of identities.  Oswald seems to change a little bit each episode as he turns more and more into the Penguin.  I don't know why the teen catwoman was creeping around in future Batman's living room or why she picked out the silver box to steal...that just seemed like an extra scene thrown in to keep her in the loop. Such a waste.  I'd like to see her have more to do than pose on top of objects. Don't really buy the therapist's explanation of why she created murderers (or had such a long time span between them).  Pretty weak as a storyline (I missed the explanation of the penny but I don't think I care enough to look back at the episode).  This is the last show I thought would grow on me, but, overall, it is one of the few of the new shows that I look forward to seeing each week. Not for the creep of the week, but because there are more complicated dynamics between the characters than I expected.  I like, for example, the relationship between the two detectives...as predictable a trope as that is, there is something interesting about how they don't trust each other but they must trust each other in certain situations.  Unfortunately, so far, the women fall into stereotypes (though I keep my hopes up for the teen catwoman to break out one of these days).  I'm not well versed on the Batman canon, so maybe that makes this easier for me to watch.  At least I'm interested enough to keep watching which is more than I can say for some of the other shows that debuted this year.

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Regarding the therapist, does she seem like a potential

Harley Quinn to anyone else? While in theory the Joker should convert her to the crazy side of the fence, she wouldn't be a bad starting point.

Given the origin of that character, being introduced to that person in this fashion (even as a reinvention) doesn't make much sense though. if the therapist's crimes had gone undiscovered.., sure... but they didn't.

 

I think the writers just mined similar territory, that's all.

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I liked Nygma having a mug with a big question mark on it. Yes, I know that's pretty obvious, but I do like the way they tuck in the transforming parts of identities.

I'm having the opposite reaction. My now mine is "ALRIGHT ALREADY! We get it! This guy/girl is going to be the Riddler/Penguin/Catwoman/whatever, you don't need to point it out constantly every single episode!"

 

Seriously, it's like they can't have Oswald or Nygma or any other character that's supposed to become an iconic villain in a scene without having to point out that they're supposed to be that villain in the most blatantly obvious way possible in most each one of those scenes, Nygma is easily the worst about this. I find it rather annoying that each one of these characters exists solely to provide these references rather than act anything remotely like people with motivations and purposes beyond that.

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