S08.E07: Kill The Moon

[NeenerNeener]

 

I barely recognized Hermione Norris from the wonderful-but-canceled Outcasts, even though it was only 3 years ago that she starred on it.

 

Ah ha! I thought she looked familiar but I couldn't place her right away..she was Carol Jordan on Wire In the Blood.

[patchwork]

Humanity did not get this decision wrong unless it's wrong to shoot an animal that has wandered into your backyard and is about to kill you (or your family).  They had no way of knowing a replacement moon was ready to go the instant the old one hatched. 

 

 

That's my point they didn't know and that the moon was born without causing further problems for Earth caused a moment of realisation that there was more in the universe that they didn't know and they should go out and learn about it. 

 

With the known information my light would have gone off too but I love that our own moon not being what we thought it was, not taking the risk and finding out that everything would have worked out if that risk had been taken is the reason we decide to leave our home planet to go and explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, boldly go where no one has gone before - as a sci-fi fan I can find that nothing but absolutely fantastic. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by patchwork

[Primetimer]

The Doctor puts Clara on notice that he's not going to be there till the end of…tiiime.

Read the story

[truther]

That's my point they didn't know and that the moon was born without causing further problems for Earth caused a moment of realisation that there was more in the universe that they didn't know and they should go out and learn about it. 

 

With the known information my light would have gone off too but I love that our own moon not being what we thought it was, not taking the risk and finding out that everything would have worked out if that risk had been taken is the reason we decide to leave our home planet to go and explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, boldly go where no one has gone before - as a sci-fi fan I can find that nothing but absolutely fantastic. 

But that's not what should have happened.  It's not simply that the Earth didn't know a replacement Moon was coming.  It's that there can't be a replacement Moon.  It's impossible.  I totally appreciate how you're paraphrasing Star Trek but this episode seems to teach precisely the opposite lesson from Star Trek.  Namely, that there's a magical solution to everything that makes everything alright for everyone no matter what you do (well, except for the Mexican miners and those other two astronauts on the shuttle). 

 

Star Trek argued that to boldly go where none had gone before was worthwhile despite the risks.  This ep, for me anyway, seems to say that there are no risks at all.  That there's always a happy ending, no matter how fanciful or implausible, so just do whatever you want and hope for the best.  It's like teaching your kids financial responsibility by giving them credit cards, letting them max them out, and then secretly paying them off. 

[benteen]

Yep and that's where I got the Day of the Doctor vibe. Both episodes presented huge moral dilemmas and then ignored consequences for a happy ending.

 

I think a bigger problem is that when a character is put in of these horrible positions that their choice is somehow painted as being wrong or short sighted. The blonde astronaut was literally the devil on Clara's shoulder. The retcon doctor as so horrible he must never be spoken of.  I get that DW isn't a serious drama but you do need these types of no win situations sometimes. It makes the episodes when "everyone lives Rose" have more meaning. The irony of quoting a Moffat written episode hasn't escaped me.

 

Yeah, the show has been judgment on these types of decisions.  The War Doctor destroys Gallifrey and the Daleks to save the universe and the rest of the Doctors disown him.  The Doctor, Clara, and Courtney are judgmental and apparently think it's wrong for the astronaut to want to sacrifice one life for billions of lives on Earth.  Earth pretty much laughed in the face of Clara's concerns over the creature and they should have.  There are times this show's main characters have over-the-top moral standards.

 

I was mixed on the Day of the Doctor retcon because it altered one of the things that had made NuWho so strong since it's return.  Ultimately I was okay with it because returning Gallifrey to NuWho would be fascinating.  Though now I get the impression that the show doesn't want to deal with Gallifrey anytime soon.  Sorry, show, you saved Gallifrey so that means you HAVE to deal with it.

[Mabinogia]

I didn't see the abortion parallel (I know, what am I blind?) but mainly because, as soon as we learned it was a baby we also learned it was the only one of it's kind and so I was thinking more that the decision was who lives, humans or this new breed, not humans or this one baby. Naturally humans would choose themselves. Though I think I would have chosen the new life form if I'd been told that's what it was, not just some random baby, but the start of a whole new life form. But then, I do tend to see life as more than humanity so there is that. I've always related more to the Doctor than the companions for that reason. We are just a tiny little part of the universe, why our lives are more important than this new life form is a very human thing to think.

 

It was interesting that he gave the decision to Clara and the astronaut who have both been to space and Clara turns around and asks the people on Earth who pretty much think they're going to die if they let it live. This baby means nothing to them. Why on Earth would they choose to let it live? That was a cop out on Clara's part. Not wanting to make the hard choice so she pawns it off on someone else. It does remind me of Fires of Pompeii (which I will have to watch again for the billionth time :) poor me). When Donna finally realized the volcano had to happen, she willingly took the burden on. The Doctor didn't have to, didn't hint that she should, he was ready to take it on himself and Donna stepped up on her own.

 

I do think that someone like Donna is what this Doctor needs. I think because she's older, her putting the Doctor in his place or telling him off would come off far less like a petulant child and more like an equal, which Clara and 12 DO NOT feel like. I think Moffitt probably thinks it's cute that the little girl (sorry but the way she acts and dresses matched with that adorable face make Clara seem really, really young to me) is telling off the old man but it's not. Anyway, this Doctor is lost and Clara is not the person to help him find his place. She's too busy living her life and simply putting up with him out of some sense of obligation. Like an adult child having to fit taking pair of their aging parent in with living their own life.

 

Sadly, since the Doctor is older, we will not get an older companion. This is supposedly a children's show so there has to be something young and pretty to look at. So even when Clara finally leaves we are just going to end up with a different Clara. At least it looks like no companion next ep so I've got that to look at. (I don't actually dislike Clara, I just don't think she's a good fit for this Doctor. The dynamic just doesn't work for me).

[tv echo]

I though this episode was boring and again it was the Clara show, with the Doctor as a supporting character.  Clara was annoying, Courtney was annoying, and the Doctor was unlikeable.  As others have said, the hard choice should not have been a hard choice at all (millions of babies on earth versus the moon baby), and then the magical solution.

 

The Doctor has had no problem in the past in persuading humans to do what he wants or what he thinks is best, or in making decisions for others, so him stepping back this time to leave the choice up to three humans (including one child), when the wrong choice could have disastrous results, just seems off to me. 

 

Also, Clara's broadcast appeal would only have been understood by English-speaking humans on Earth (unless I missed a line about a universal translator) - so she was essentially leaving it up to a limited section of humanity to make the choice for all of humanity.

 

Again, get rid of Clara, Courtney and Danny - and bring in Psi and Saber (from the "Time Heist" episode) or someone else as the new companions, plus do something to make the Doctor more likeable.  He doesn't have to be a charming guy, but there has to be something appealing about him that attracts companions and strangers alike to follow him.

Edited October 5, 2014 by tv echo

[GenieinTX]

I hated it.  I think the only episode this season I have liked was Sherwood.  This season has been horrible.  And I think I know why.

 

Moff has said that this season Clara is the main character, not the Doctor.  And we are suffering for it.  Also, maybe that's why the Doctor is so horrible.  We aren't seeing him for who he is, we are seeing him through Clara's eyes.  She misses 11, she sees 12 as horrible and gruff and a jerk compared to 12.  I think Moff is wrong making Clara the main character and this season being her journey instead of the Doctor's.  He's wasting the fabulous Capaldi and alienating a lot of his audience.

[shapeshifter]

About the entire planet turning off the lights: This should have been a huge moment for world peace and understanding.

I didn't see the abortion parallel (I know, what am I blind?) but mainly because, as soon as we learned it was a baby we also learned it was the only one of it's kind and so I was thinking more that the decision was who lives, humans or this new breed, not humans or this one baby...

In addition to the abortion metaphor--I saw an environmental issue metaphor--but I'm not sure it was intended--that the humans might inadvertently doom earth by their well-meaning environmental decisions.

I wonder if the story was supposed to leave the audience thinking that The Doctor knew that either decision would be okay, because both the new and old moons would suffice (ignoring the delicate balance of physics for the purposes of the story), and that the point was to let humans decide their own fate. I suppose the audience (and Clara) sort of got the second part (human agency), but both Clara and the audience were mad at The Doctor for it--which is interesting because the audience (here, at least) seems to dislike Clara's anger too. So, no "enemy of my enemy is my friend" sentiments--I guess because the audience still likes Dr. Who in genreral, if not this incarnation so much.

ETA, Mabinogia, love your icon/avatar!

Edited October 5, 2014 by shapeshifter

[ketose]

This discussion started me thinking about poor Adric from Classic Who. He stayed behind on the ship that was about to crash into earth using his awesome maths to try overriding the controls. He failed, he died and the ship crashed, which killed the dinosaurs and led the way for humans to walk the earth. He made the wrong choice and failed, dying a meaningless death. It was a real love letter to those who hated Adric.

 

Clara basically pulled a Homer. She did what was objectively the wrong thing and it turned out right entirely by accident. The funny part is that the Doctor never really saw anything in Clara that would make her a good companion. He was chasing Impossible Girl and ended up dragging her along and interfering in her own history because she had invaded his history. She never really chose this adventure and seems to have a limited interest in it. At least Amy spent some time as a companion before she dropped to part-time.

[benteen]

It's telling too that once the Impossible Girl mystery was solved, Clara went back immediately to being a part-time companion.

[Llywela]

 

I wonder if the story was supposed to leave the audience thinking that The Doctor knew that either decision would be okay, because both the new and old moons would suffice (ignoring the delicate balance of physics for the purposes of the story), and that the point was to let humans decide their own fate

But he'd have had to step in, surely, because if the astronaut had nuked the moon, she, Clara and Courtney would all have died. Would the Doctor really have let that happen? The Doctor I've always known wouldn't.

[theOtherGreg]

I know these are for kids, and more fantasy than science fiction, but the science bits in this episode were terrible. An egg gains weight as the life inside it grows? Really? Just awful. And even if the moon somehow did end up gaining enough mass to have Earth-like gravity, the effects on the Earth would be disastrous. The writer is obviously unfamiliar with, and possibly disdainful of, grade ten physics.

[benteen]

Agreed.  He would have pulled them out at the last second, even if the bomb would have gone off.

 

Another annoying Clara moment was her going over what technology would be lost on Earth without the Moon and saying "I can live with that."  I'm glad you can live with that, self-centered, selfish girl.  Nothing like limiting important technologies that help people.

[MadMouse]

Yeah, the show has been judgment on these types of decisions.  The War Doctor destroys Gallifrey and the Daleks to save the universe and the rest of the Doctors disown him.  The Doctor, Clara, and Courtney are judgmental and apparently think it's wrong for the astronaut to want to sacrifice one life for billions of lives on Earth.  Earth pretty much laughed in the face of Clara's concerns over the creature and they should have.  There are times this show's main characters have over-the-top moral standards.

 

I was mixed on the Day of the Doctor retcon because it altered one of the things that had made NuWho so strong since it's return.  Ultimately I was okay with it because returning Gallifrey to NuWho would be fascinating.  Though now I get the impression that the show doesn't want to deal with Gallifrey anytime soon.  Sorry, show, you saved Gallifrey so that means you HAVE to deal with it.

 

Its only been this way since Moffat really. RTD had both Donna and Rose give the Doctor their consent to sacrifice people to save the world. Rose did it without a second thought. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with Doctor finding another way most of the time. But once in awhile the show needs a no win situation. It gives the companion and by default the audience insight into what the Doctor goes through when he gets involved.  

 

I have no problem with Gallifrey or the Time Lords returning. Its the solution that Moffat came up with that annoys me. A Sci Fi show with no rules and the best they could come up with is he doesn't push the button and forgets. Never mind it takes away one of the strongest character moments from the Doctor and uses children as an excuse while conveniently forgetting how corrupt the Time Lords had become. Ugh

[dmmetler]

I actually really liked this one. I think it's because I have a budding biologist in the family, and have gone to two professional conferences where biodiversity and trying to figure out the least bad solution that both preserves biodiversity and allows human use or other animal use is are common topics of discussion. So I saw this less as an abortion parallel and more an animal rights one. Do you protect that wetlands to protect the animals that live there, limiting human expansion and also increasing the growth of animals that actually cause harm to humans, like, say, mosquitoes, or do you destroy it, killing the innocent animal life, but giving humans what they need?

 

As I saw it as well, this was a case of a least bad solution. The gaps were growing. Yes, if you kill the infant, it will stop hatching, but that won't fix the cracked egg. Nor will it remove the increased weight that is causing the worst environmental disasters in history. Getting rid of it won't restore the prior status quo of 10 years previously. Letting the egg hatch and losing the moon would cause some pretty bad results, too, and it would be hard to predict what will happen. So, is it better the devil you know, or the one you don't?

 

I also loved that the one person who was unilaterally focused on saving the alien was Courtney-because that's my experience as well. Kids, teens, even college students tend to be black and white and focused on environmental issues. They can't believe, quite, that anything bad will happen to people, so therefore, everyone should be saved. The astronaut was the one person with real experience as to how bad it had gotten. She wanted to do the least harm and at least stop it now. Clara didn't know how bad it was on Earth, didn't have the idealism of a child, and ultimately couldn't make up her mind, so she punted to the majority. Which is how most adults handle it, too.  And while the astronaut could say "I was wrong", and Courtney was "It's so beautiful!!", Clara had a tantrum. Because she didn't want to make the decision one way or the other, the way Courtney and the Astronaut both had. She wanted the doctor to make the decision for her, to save her from herself, and to take the blame. The doctor chose not to do so. I think he made the right choice.

[romantic idiot]

Pro Life / Pro Choice - meh.

Because Clara is a "ME ME ME!" personality.  If the Doctor was being patronizing, then so was she for making a decision the rest of humanity rejected.  It was ridiculous for the Doctor, Clara, and Courtney to de judgmental about the Earth wanting to "destroy" the creature.  It literally was a one life against billions decision.  The Doctor at least stepped back but Clara basically fired a gun at the Earth not knowing if it contained a blank bullet.

RTD definitely understood decisions have consequences.  The Waters of Mars (a companion piece to this episode in a lot of ways) is proof of that.

I don't see it is one life vs billions. I see it as one entire species vs. billions of lives - because it wasn't humanity that was dying here.

I thought this was a proper Doctor Who episode until this point. Isn't this the point of the show? The companions step up and show courage they didn't know they had? The afterward though? Fuck off Clara. Really. She's treated traveling with the Doctor like a chore. Then go away. I can get she was overwhelmed, but whatever. I know the Doctor has been mainly grumpy this season, but I think he was fine here. I think he knew all along what Clara was going to do.

I thought of Pompeii too. I think Donna would have stepped up. She wouldn't have held a vote. She would have said, "Don't. You. Touch. *Those*. Bombs." And that would have been that.

This so much. Donna would have got it, and not thrown a hissy fit about a hard choice. I want to slap Clara into a new regeneration - called Psi.

 But then Clara punctures his reasoning in a way that was totally convincing to me. I know some people have said they didn't see why she was mad, but I think she's right: Basically, well-intentioned or not, the Doctor is playing games with people's lives. This isn't a learning experience in which Clara needs to be taught a Very Important Lesson about personal responsibility, this is a potentially catastrophic situation in which everyone deserves to, at the very least, make the choice with access to the best information possible. And as that last conversation proves, the Doctor did know more than he was saying - he had some reason to believe that the Earth would be safe that he declined to share with the class.

It is also disrespectful for the Doctor to act as if, in a deadly serious situation, Clara needs a lesson at all. I guess the best analogy I have is this: both my father and I have jobs that involve writing. When I was a kid, I wouldn't ask for his help on writing assignments because I understood - and he backed me up in this -- that I had to learn for myself. Now that I'm an adult, and at least as good a writer as he is, I will sometimes ask for his input, but not as a mentor, as a peer. I would be grossly offended if I asked him to read something over, and his response was the same as it had been when I was nine. If you see someone as worthy of respect, you don't need to engineer learning experiences or object lessons for them. That's what you do for an obvious inferior.That's also why it was so important to have Courtney in the episode. She's Clara's student, but while Clara tries to keep her safe and guide her, she also treats her with respect when the chips are down - the moment where she tells her she can call her Clara is key.

And, you know, Courtney gets to be the first woman on the moon. And President of the US - which adds lovely irony to the Doctor's comment that the President can't decide because "she hasn't been in space." We can fanwank the constitutional issue - people did talk a bit about the law being changed to let Arnold Schwartznegger run before the love-child scandal came out.

Maybe Courtney was born in the US, but is being brought up in England. Or America has taken over UK in this reality - which is why Clara wanted the President to decide, and not, say, the Prime Minister or even the UN.  (talk about a total WTF moment). But I think Clara's premise is that the Doctor is playing games with peoples' lives, when I don't think he was. He literally left it up to humanity to decide their future. If they'd killed the creature, the creature would be dead and humanity would continue to live on Earth. They could have decided to look to space later or not. If they'd decided not to kill the creature and the moon had been destroyed, he had reason to believe that the nest would have been all right. Even if it hadn't been made, it was a choice humanity had made anyway. They'd sent all their nuclear weapons up to space to destroy the moon, and presumably, live with the consequences (by the way I wonder what happened to the other 4,000+ nuclear weapons that they did not send). So I don't think he was playing a game, he was genuinely allowing the humans to decide humanity's future. Which wasn't in danger of ending, that I could see.

I also liked that the Doctor stepped back and let humanity choose, that humanity got it so wrong they started to think about their own hubris and once again became explorers.

The Doctor is looking at the big picture i.e. humanity's path while Clara is focused on her own pov; she couldn't live with killing the moon baby, she felt betrayed by the Doctor leaving, and neither is wrong.

I wouldn't mind if this is the last we see of Clara for a while, Twelve could have episodic companions until the finale where he's reunited with Clara and they part ways on good terms. I'm ready for the next full time companion but story-wise things need to cool off then be worked out between the two of them before we can move on.

Agreed. I liked Clara in the beginning, but I'm really tired of her now, and after today's temper tantrum I'm done.

Humanity did not get this decision wrong unless it's wrong to shoot an animal that has wandered into your backyard and is about to kill you (or your family).  They had no way of knowing a replacement moon was ready to go the instant the old one hatched.

I do understand why Clara was pissed.  Companions sometimes have to make tough decisions when the Doctor vanishes but it's usually because he's incapacitated or busy with something else.  This time he voluntarily chose to leave and, in Clara's mind, left her to decide between executing an innocent animal or condemn millions of innocent people to death.

That being said, it was right of the Doctor to step back and let humanity choose.  Of course, he's usually the guy who ignores what other people want and does his own thing so he and Clara have that in common.

I too won't say humanity got it wrong, I'll say humanity made the typical, expected decision. But perhaps humanity needed to see that killing the animal doesn't have to be the choice always. One could shoot to wound, make a loud noise, throw a blanket over it, stun it, hit it with a stick, shield, frying pan. Maybe a shoot first and ask questions later mentality was necessary to be overcome when coming across other species which would, initially be stronger and more advanced than humans. 

That's my point they didn't know and that the moon was born without causing further problems for Earth caused a moment of realisation that there was more in the universe that they didn't know and they should go out and learn about it.

With the known information my light would have gone off too but I love that our own moon not being what we thought it was, not taking the risk and finding out that everything would have worked out if that risk had been taken is the reason we decide to leave our home planet to go and explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilizations, boldly go where no one has gone before - as a sci-fi fan I can find that nothing but absolutely fantastic.

This so very much. We saw a beautiful thing up in space and wanted to see other beautiful things. A human decided to put another species before humanity and humanity didn't suffer. Both fantastic things in and of themselves.

But that's not what should have happened.  It's not simply that the Earth didn't know a replacement Moon was coming.  It's that there can't be a replacement Moon.  It's impossible.  I totally appreciate how you're paraphrasing Star Trek but this episode seems to teach precisely the opposite lesson from Star Trek.  Namely, that there's a magical solution to everything that makes everything alright for everyone no matter what you do (well, except for the Mexican miners and those other two astronauts on the shuttle).

Star Trek argued that to boldly go where none had gone before was worthwhile despite the risks.  This ep, for me anyway, seems to say that there are no risks at all.  That there's always a happy ending, no matter how fanciful or implausible, so just do whatever you want and hope for the best.  It's like teaching your kids financial responsibility by giving them credit cards, letting them max them out, and then secretly paying them off.

I don't see the problem with the kids metaphor - if they felt the fear wouldn't it work anyway? I guess that's probably why it's a good thing I'm not a mother. And since the Mexicans died and the 2 astronauts died - I don't call it ia happy, magical ending. Also, I don't see why an instant replacement moon is impossible in the Doctor Who universe, of all things. Either way, it's still a decision they'd made already. The shuttles had been sent up precisely to do what was done, get rid of the moon.

I didn't see the abortion parallel (I know, what am I blind?) but mainly because, as soon as we learned it was a baby we also learned it was the only one of it's kind and so I was thinking more that the decision was who lives, humans or this new breed, not humans or this one baby. Naturally humans would choose themselves. Though I think I would have chosen the new life form if I'd been told that's what it was, not just some random baby, but the start of a whole new life form. But then, I do tend to see life as more than humanity so there is that. I've always related more to the Doctor than the companions for that reason. We are just a tiny little part of the universe, why our lives are more important than this new life form is a very human thing to think. 

It was interesting that he gave the decision to Clara and the astronaut who have both been to space and Clara turns around and asks the people on Earth who pretty much think they're going to die if they let it live. This baby means nothing to them. Why on Earth would they choose to let it live? That was a cop out on Clara's part. Not wanting to make the hard choice so she pawns it off on someone else. It does remind me of Fires of Pompeii (which I will have to watch again for the billionth time :) poor me). When Donna finally realized the volcano had to happen, she willingly took the burden on. The Doctor didn't have to, didn't hint that she should, he was ready to take it on himself and Donna stepped up on her own.

I do think that someone like Donna is what this Doctor needs. I think because she's older, her putting the Doctor in his place or telling him off would come off far less like a petulant child and more like an equal, which Clara and 12 DO NOT feel like. I think Moffitt probably thinks it's cute that the little girl (sorry but the way she acts and dresses matched with that adorable face make Clara seem really, really young to me) is telling off the old man but it's not. Anyway, this Doctor is lost and Clara is not the person to help him find his place. She's too busy living her life and simply putting up with him out of some sense of obligation. Like an adult child having to fit taking pair of their aging parent in with living their own life.

Sadly, since the Doctor is older, we will not get an older companion. This is supposedly a children's show so there has to be something young and pretty to look at. So even when Clara finally leaves we are just going to end up with a different Clara. At least it looks like no companion next ep so I've got that to look at. (I don't actually dislike Clara, I just don't think she's a good fit for this Doctor. The dynamic just doesn't work for me).

This so much. It was a complete cop out for Clara to throw it out to the humans and to the Doctor because she doesn't want to make the hard decisions. That's also why she's a part-time companion, I think. And agreed, they wouldn't be killing off a random baby, but rather an entire species.

Also, Clara's broadcast appeal would only have been understood by English-speaking humans on Earth (unless I missed a line about a universal translator) - so she was essentially leaving it up to a limited section of humanity to make the choice for all of humanity.

Again, get rid of Clara, Courtney and Danny - and bring in Psi and Saber (from the "Time Heist" episode) or someone else as the new companions, plus do something to make the Doctor more likeable.  He doesn't have to be a charming guy, but there has to be something appealing about him that attracts companions and strangers alike to follow him.

By 2049, maybe instant translation is a thing. Of course, Clara didn't know that. Or maybe TARDIS would have ensured that Clara had been understood by everyone.  I agree about ditching Courtney and Clara. I will disagree a little and say that I don't think the Doctor needs to be likeable, but he does need to be compelling. He's not compelling for Clara now, for sure, which is why she needs to leave. He's compelling enough for me, at present, though. Edited October 5, 2014 by romantic idiot

[Maelstrom]

That was the longest 60 minutes of my life. And I've officially gone from not liking Clara to actively hating her. I'm so sorry this is the dreck that Capaldi gets stuck with. Is it too late to get him back as the Cardinal on Musketeers?

 

I hate that the show and the Doctor are being thrown under a bus to serve Clara's story arc.

 

This new Doctor has not been allowed to have his personality developed beyond the abrasive detachment established in his first episode, because Clara's story for the season - which apparently revolves around disliking the Doctor and being miserable while with him - relies on him being unpleasant, and Moffat has decided that Clara is now the hero of the show, the only person who gets to have a storyline or a valid point of view.

 

In this episode, continuing the seasonal trend, the entire population of Earth got to be wrong so that perfect Clara could be right.

YES. To every single thing you've said, Llywela.

 

Star Trek argued that to boldly go where none had gone before was worthwhile despite the risks.  This ep, for me anyway, seems to say that there are no risks at all.  That there's always a happy ending, no matter how fanciful or implausible, so just do whatever you want and hope for the best.  It's like teaching your kids financial responsibility by giving them credit cards, letting them max them out, and then secretly paying them off. 

As the saying goes, lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.

 

I didn't see the abortion parallel (I know, what am I blind?) but mainly because, as soon as we learned it was a baby we also learned it was the only one of it's kind and so I was thinking more that the decision was who lives, humans or this new breed, not humans or this one baby.

 

It was interesting that he gave the decision to Clara and the astronaut who have both been to space and Clara turns around and asks the people on Earth who pretty much think they're going to die if they let it live. This baby means nothing to them. Why on Earth would they choose to let it live? That was a cop out on Clara's part. Not wanting to make the hard choice so she pawns it off on someone else. It does remind me of Fires of Pompeii (which I will have to watch again for the billionth time :) poor me). When Donna finally realized the volcano had to happen, she willingly took the burden on. The Doctor didn't have to, didn't hint that she should, he was ready to take it on himself and Donna stepped up on her own.

 

I do think that someone like Donna is what this Doctor needs. I think because she's older, her putting the Doctor in his place or telling him off would come off far less like a petulant child and more like an equal, which Clara and 12 DO NOT feel like. I think Moffitt probably thinks it's cute that the little girl (sorry but the way she acts and dresses matched with that adorable face make Clara seem really, really young to me) is telling off the old man but it's not. Anyway, this Doctor is lost and Clara is not the person to help him find his place. She's too busy living her life and simply putting up with him out of some sense of obligation. Like an adult child having to fit taking pair of their aging parent in with living their own life.

This ep reminded me of Fires of Pompeii too, as well as Waters of Mars. Which reminded me how great those episodes were, and how awful this one was, and how I'd much rather be watching either of those instead of this travesty.

 

Personally, I think Donna makes everything better. I'd love to have her back for Twelve, or even someone who brings the same dynamics to the show and the Doctor. Because Clara his not cutting it. (For the record, I didn't get the abortion parallel while watching either, but in hindsight it seems pretty obvious).

 

I though this episode was boring and again it was the Clara show, with the Doctor as a supporting character.  Clara was annoying, Courtney was annoying, and the Doctor was unlikeable.

 

Again, get rid of Clara, Courtney and Danny - and bring in Psi and Saber (from the "Time Heist" episode) or someone else as the new companions, plus do something to make the Doctor more likeable.  He doesn't have to be a charming guy, but there has to be something appealing about him that attracts companions and strangers alike to follow him.

 

Moff has said that this season Clara is the main character, not the Doctor.  And we are suffering for it.  Also, maybe that's why the Doctor is so horrible.  We aren't seeing him for who he is, we are seeing him through Clara's eyes.  She misses 11, she sees 12 as horrible and gruff and a jerk compared to 12.  I think Moff is wrong making Clara the main character and this season being her journey instead of the Doctor's.  He's wasting the fabulous Capaldi and alienating a lot of his audience.

YES. I really wish they hadn't cancelled Doctor Who in favor of The Awesome Adventures of Perfect Clara Being Awesome show.

 

The Doctor has had no problem in the past in persuading humans to do what he wants or what he thinks is best, or in making decisions for others, so him stepping back this time to leave the choice up to three humans (including one child), when the wrong choice could have disastrous results, just seems off to me.

Since when have we known the Doctor to not have an opinion on any given topic? Having him abstain from a vote felt 100% out of character to me.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Maelstrom

[mirrorrim]

I hated this episode. I liked the idea that the moon was actually an egg, but the whole dilemma really pissed me off. I immediately felt they were shoving a pro-life debate down my throat every time they yelled "But it's a baby! I can't kill a baaaaby!"

If we forget the glaringly obvious "why is this baby more important than the millions of unborn babies on Earth," I hated that Clara did not care AT ALL that Earth had been nearly destroyed over the course of 10 years and millions of people had already died and yet she's all unicorns and rainbows about this harbinger-of-death-baby. I mean, really? If this was supposed to make me pro-life and tickle my ovaries that women got to choose the fate of the Earth, I feel insulted--it makes women look stupid and that we have no logical thinking when it comes to babies.

And humanity did not get it wrong. They came to a logical conclusion based on the facts. Clara was a delusional idiot and got lucky. The vote was stupid because I knew Clara would never actually take anyone else's opinion into account.

Finally--unless the Doctor isn't telling us something, how does anyone know humanity WOULDN'T have gone and explored space anyway after destroying the moon? It was a false premise. Humanity just as easily could have destroyed the moon and started a space exploration program to find a more habitable planet--EXACTLY LIKE WHAT HAPPENED.

Also--I'm really tired of companions getting angry at the Doctor for putting them in a dangerous or scary position. I've always wondered why companions aren't more freaked out about traveling with him--we never see them go on an adventure that doesn't involve danger (but I've only watched since Matt Smith). I know occasionally they mention visiting a beach or something, but with the infrequency they mention those trips, I assume 90% of trips involve life or death situations. I think it would be interesting to explore the pathological nature of the companions and how anyone can "enjoy" that much stress all the time.

Edited October 5, 2014 by mirrorrim

[Lugal]

Moff has said that this season Clara is the main character, not the Doctor.  And we are suffering for it.  Also, maybe that's why the Doctor is so horrible.  We aren't seeing him for who he is, we are seeing him through Clara's eyes.  She misses 11, she sees 12 as horrible and gruff and a jerk compared to 12.  I think Moff is wrong making Clara the main character and this season being her journey instead of the Doctor's.  He's wasting the fabulous Capaldi and alienating a lot of his audience.

Moff needs to go back to writing school (and not just for the horrible mess that was "Listen") and learn the difference between a Main Character and a Viewpoint Character.  The companion has always been the viewpoint character, while the Doctor is the main character.  When the show premiered we followed Rose through her life and job at the shop until she goes down to the basement and meets the Doctor.  But it was the Doctor's actions and decisions that moved the episode.

 

But here we have the Doctor taking them to the moon and figuring out what's going on but then he bows out for Clara to make the Big Decision, and then she puts it up to the planet to vote (well half the planet, she could not have seen those of us on the other side) which she then ignores anyway.

[libraryone]

I really didn't see this as referencing the abortion debate or environmentalists, either. There have been a lot of Who episodes where the human response to a strange or alien species has been to want to destroy it (the Silurians, for example). The Doctor has generally tried to interevene. So I thought it was an interesing idea for him to basically throw it back to the humans this time.

Of course, it wasn't executed well. Here, in typical fashion for the Moffat era, the stakes have been upped to such a high level, with the fate of entire planet hanging in the balance, that to a lot of adults, it would seem ridiculous not to kill the baby. A kid might have a different response, more like Courtney. It would have made a lot more sense for her to have impulsively aborted the countdown, hoping that everything turned out okay. But because this is now the Clara show, it had to be her to make the choice. And then it set up her meltdown at the end, which felt a little over the top to me, but of course, we had to have a reason for her to "break up" with the Doctor. The gentler, wearily sad good-bye of Tegan doesn't fit in with the Moffat style of storytelling.

Oh, and the baby laying a new moon egg was ridiculous.

Edited October 5, 2014 by libraryone

[elle]

I keep seeing the phrase "this show is for kids".  Was it originally conceived as a kids show?  Was the reboot made with that thought in mind?  This show has never seemed to be for kids to me.

 

Most of my questions either involve logic or science, I may just be yelling into the wind here.

 

One question that involves neither: Any guesses as to what hatched from the moon?   I don't believe the astronaut actually knew what it was.  

 

The following two quotes best summarize an answer to my question about Courtney becoming "The President".

Did they actually say American President.  I am not sure about Doctor Who....I am not a purist or a person who remembers details but other SCIFI Shows do talk about Humanity eventually coming together and forming a world government.  World President?  

 

There was a line about the last shuttle being in a museum and a couple of lines about the shuttle being outdated, so it seems he was aware that the program has ended. Also, it was 10 years between the Mexicans last transmission and their arrival, so it's possible that while it was newly built, it was based off of the original plans.

 

I thought this was the Doctor just being a dick. The whole episode started because Clara was mad that he told Courtney she wasn't special. So now she's the first woman on the moon and so 'Super Special' that she can become the President of United States, except that she's not and won't/can't.

 

I agree the the Doctor was just being a jerk at the moment, not actually saying what would happen to Courtney.  However, I did not think of a world president, and personally, I don't think Moffet did either.

 

Huge glaring error that didn't hit me until the Doctor snarkily told the American astronaut that "NASA  was 2, 500 miles that way" while standing on the beach.  (and where were they supposed to be?)   If there had been massive high tides, Florida, and Cape Canaveral, would have been among the first to go.   I even question if Houston would have been there.  Even if they pulled a shuttle out of a museum well inland and fixed it for flight (remember the comment about taking the "top off so kids could ride in it"), from where would they launch?  It would have made much more sense if it had been cosmonauts or better yet a multi-national crew on the mission.

 

And speaking of mutli-national..

About the entire planet turning off the lights: This should have been a huge moment for world peace and understanding.

I don't recall how much time they had left on the countdown, but it didn't seem like enough time to watch the Earth make one revolution on its axis to see everyone turn off their lights.

 

I don't see it is one life vs billions. I see it as one entire species vs. billions of lives - because it wasn't humanity that was dying here.

I politely disagree.  Humanity was dying.  Humanity was dying because of the effects of the changes in the moon.  They were willing to risk the consequences of destroying the moon rather than continue with all the destruction that was happening.

 

Side-thought: how did the astronauts know that the debris from blowing up the moon wouldn't rain down on the Earth as they guessed would happen if the life-form was allowed to hatch?

 

 

The spider germs reminded me of the macroviruses from Star Trek Voyager, which is probably not what DW wants to emulate.

 

2049 is only 47 years from the last manned moon landing.  No one saw those bacteria during any of the missions?  They grew that big in only 4 decades or less?

 

I don't have a basic biology book handy, so can someone explain the bacteria to me?  I would have thought that they couldn't exist because aren't eggs by design bacteria free on the inside?

 

(Voyager before it became the Q&Kathy show was a decent show.)

[ABay]

So much has been said that I agree with: pro-life propaganda, perfect Clara, someone like Donna would be so much better for this Doctor, Fires of Pompeii offered a fixed point in time which meant there were consequences to the hard choice that had to be made, etc.

 

But here's my science-ignorant question: is it possible to have high tide everywhere at once? Wouldn't that require a big trough in the middle so all the water was pushed to the coast lines?

 

Also, Hermione Norris was also Roz on Spooks or MI-5 as it was called here.

Edited October 5, 2014 by ABay

[benteen]

 

I politely disagree.  Humanity was dying.  Humanity was dying because of the effects of the changes in the moon.  They were willing to risk the consequences of destroying the moon rather than continue with all the destruction that was happening.

 

Agreed.  One life/one species, it didn't matter...the whole of humanity against one life/species is not something to debate over for Clara and company.

Edited October 5, 2014 by benteen

[ML89]

My problem was less with the moon blowing up than, it's 2049 and there's no lights on in Africa or South America for the most part? Yes, Amazon and Sahara and all that but it was obviously current. Guess they spent too much on the moon... You've had the high tide causing the largest natural disaster ever and FLORIDA is still there? (I'm in Florida, we wouldn't be).

 

The last shuttle was, per the script, in a museum and had had the top cut out for kiddie rides, if I heard it right. Which we haven't done so far, and we only have about 30 years to go, so I guess we need to get cracking...If it's the last one, then maybe it is the Enterprise coming to the rescue once again!

 

[Jamoche]

 And even if the moon somehow did end up gaining enough mass to have Earth-like gravity

I missed that, I wasn't even giving this ep half my attention - I just saw them walking around normally and figured they weren't even putting any effort in it.

 

It was extra annoying as it comes so closely after I watched a video on using realtime 3D to work out why the moon photos looked like they did (cool discovery: the reason the astronaut who was in the lander's shadow seemed so well-lit was because the suit of the astronaut taking the shot reflected enough extra light) that was marred by them giving far too much screen time to people who need to be punched by Buzz Aldrin.

[truther]

And I've officially gone from not liking Clara to actively hating her.

Yep.  I'm coming around to that viewpoint as well.  As I was thinking about the ep this morning I finally realized just how breathtakingly arrogant Clara was.  You've got planet Earth in 2049, suffering under some extraordinary catastrophe and reaching consensus on how best to deal with it.  Then along comes Clara, utterly ignorant and alien to that world, taking it on herself to veto their decision even though nobody asked her and she literally doesn't know what's going on.  Even giving them a vote was itself amazingly egotistical.  Imagine if you were about to have major surgery and somebody you didn't know waltzed into your hospital room and said they were morally opposed to what you were doing but would let you go ahead with your decision if your whole family voted in favor of it.  And then they ignored you anyway!

[Llywela]

Also--I'm really tired of companions getting angry at the Doctor for putting them in a dangerous or scary position. I've always wondered why companions aren't more freaked out about traveling with him--we never see them go on an adventure that doesn't involve danger (but I've only watched since Matt Smith). I know occasionally they mention visiting a beach or something, but with the infrequency they mention those trips, I assume 90% of trips involve life or death situations. I think it would be interesting to explore the pathological nature of the companions and how anyone can "enjoy" that much stress all the time.

I suppose this is why Moffat says that when he devises new companions, he doesn't sit down and design a character who would be interesting or different, he just tries to think what sort of person would want to travel with the Doctor, which is why there are so many similarities between his characters.

 

In a sense, it was easier in the classic era, especially in the early years when the Doctor couldn't steer the TARDIS. Once someone came aboard, for whatever reason, they couldn't go home. They either had to stop and settle somewhere they landed, or stay with the Doctor, and the Hartnell era especially got a lot of mileage out of the natural tension arising from that basic set-up. It meant that there were a lot of reluctant travellers, a lot of unlikely adventurers, which made for some smashing character stories as these character learned to cope - some of those stories told today, with modern narrative stylings and production values, could be amazing.

 

And even with a Doctor who can steer the TARDIS, there are still creative ways of bringing someone aboard who doesn't necessarily want to be there. The Fourth Doctor era did it with Harry - the Doctor thought it would be a good joke to take him for a spin (much like with Courtney here)...but then they got separated from the TARDIS for the whole of season 12, stumbling from one adventure to another, travelling through time and space via transmat and time ring, physically unable to return home until they were finally reunited with the TARDIS. It gave us a lovely fish-out-of-water story for Harry as he floundered in culture shock and gradually adapted to become a stalwart right-hand man for the Doctor. Romana joined the Doctor at first because she'd been assigned a mission, rather than because she wanted to travel and adventure. Tegan, in the early '80s, had a fantastic early character arc, stumbling into the TARDIS by accident and getting stuck with the crew for two successive adventures that follow on from one another, lurching from one crisis to the next without any opportunity to leave. Then there was mileage gained from the Doctor's erratic piloting, as his first couple of attempts at taking her home went wrong, and by then she'd been with him for 4/5 adventures - almost half a season, in modern terms - and had grown attached to her fellow travellers, so decided to stay a bit longer. And with Tegan, there was always a tension because she didn't much like the adventuring and the danger, but she was too fond of the TARDIS team to ask to go home - it was a conflict that played out throughout her time on the show, to greater or lesser effect depending on your view of those stories, but it was very much a proto-arc that could be told well today, with the right set-up and writing.

 

And those are just a few examples of the kind of character story that is possible without the companions needing to all be thrill-seekers who laugh in the face of danger - it just requires a bit of creativity on the part of the writing team and a willingness to move beyond the cosy New Who formula and do something a bit different, bring aboard different types of personality and play out different kinds of relationships.

 

Although Moffat thinks he's done that with Clara. But he's gone different in a way that isn't fun or compelling to watch. It really needn't be that way.

 

I keep seeing the phrase "this show is for kids".  Was it originally conceived as a kids show?  Was the reboot made with that thought in mind?  This show has never seemed to be for kids to me.

Well, the show was originally conceived as an educational teatime programme for children, yes. The reboot was designed as family entertainment, rather than as a children's show, but still geared more toward children than adults. It's effectively teatime drama still, even though Strictly Come Dancing has pushed it back into a slightly later timeslot at the moment.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Llywela

[elle]

Agreed.  One life/one species, it didn't matter...the whole of humanity against one life/species is not something to debate over for Clara and company.

I think I need to start drinking coffee again or something, because I have been really slow on thinking of other complications, such as, the one life or last of its kind point.  The Doctor said that the creature was the last of its kind, or am I misremembering that.  He was proven wrong when the creature laid a new egg/moon.  He appeared not to even have realised the egg/moon connection.  For all he/we know there are any number of egg/moon/plantoids waiting to hatch.  (Ha.  A new skiffy movie after Sharknado the Revenge of Pluto (or the birth of Mothra III)

 

 

I wanted to like this. And I mostly did. I thought the Doctor deciding it was humanity's decision and buggering off was fantastic. I completely agreed with him. There's a point at which the Doctor isn't "saving humanity" but is merely making decisions paternalistically and I like that this Doctor seems to realise it.

 

Having said that, Clara's breakdown was just.... the last thing this show needs is more angst. I mean, it's not as if travelling with the Doctor is a job requirement or something. It's a choice. So just don't do it. I remember when Tegan left and I thought that was note perfect. She just said, "I can't watch more people die" and went home. So if this was Clara leaving the Doctor for good, I could have handled that. But judging from the final scene it isn't.

 

 

 

As far as the parallels between this and "The Beast Below", I think it telling to see how The Doctor and The Companion both reacted to the situation at hand.  Eleven knew, all of them knew, that this was the last Star Whale.  Eleven took the decision out of the humans' hands by making the decision that he, and he alone, could find the compromise of allowing humanity to continue on while putting the whale out of pain, although at the cost of its sentience.  Extremely patronizing, angry, and very judgmental - "no one human has anything to say to me today!" Amy had the facts of the situation given to her by the recording of Liz 10.  She made the connections to what she had observed of The Doctor.  Yes, she took a huge risk, but it was a risk based on a mixture of logic and emotion.

 

Compare that to Twelve telling three people that the decision was in their hands because there was no option "c", at least he was not going to provide one.  Clara's last second save of the creature, I think, was based mostly on emotion but also on the conviction that she had been to the moon in the future so it couldn't have been destroyed.  (I have no actual dialogue to back this up, just my opinion)

 

Which Doctor was acting in our best interest or even in his?  Which Companion made the choice we would have made?   Lots of talk waiting there.

 

Don't get me wrong - the idea of companion as Doctor cheerleader like Rose was is just as annoying. Her romping around the moon going, "this is so much fun!" would have been even worse. But this angsty, whinging companion is not just frustrating, it's kind of boring.

I am not a big fan of Rose, that said, I don't recall Rose as cheerleader when the situation was dire.  Yes, both she and Ten were giddy at the end of the episode I refer to as "Werewolves of Scotland", but that was after the threat was gone.

 

I do find myself agreeing with the latter part of the following post.  I too miss Rose, Martha, and Donna.  In fact I would like to see Martha with this Doctor.

 

I was completely disappointed in Clara in this one. If this were happening and she wasn't the Doctor's companion, would she have kept the light on?

 

I miss Rose. And Donna. Hell, even Martha at this point.

Good point.  I think it would be a safe guess that she would have turned off the light based on her comment that she almost didn't stop the detonation.

 

 

I thought this episode was awesome until the last 10 minutes, when everything kind of went crazy.  I really liked that there was a dilemma that reasonable people discussed.  And no side was made to seem evil or ridiculous.  And then the show decided to have its cake and eat it too.

 

The choice was presented as follows:  The Earth is not doing well because the moon is breaking apart.  If the moon breaks apart, the effects might range from wrecking the tides and satellites all the way to massive extinctions.  Choice 1 - kill the creature and save the Earth.  Choice 2 - do nothing and hope the creature doesn't destroy the Earth (directly or indirectly), but know there would be consequences.

 

And then despite the majority of Earth voting to kill the creature (which is reasonable, needs of many > needs of few, billions of people + billions of Earth animals > a moon creature + moon spiders), Clara decides not to.  And then not only does the creature, or the spiders, not do anything to hurt Earth.  The creature lays a new moon so that there's absolutely no consequences.  That feels like a deus ex machina to me.  The show cant spend 50 minutes building up how horrible a choice there is, and then say "by the way turns out 1 of the options had no downside whatsoever"

 

I'm also not sure what to make of Clara's outburst.  I like that this Doctor knows when to step back, unlike 10's Lonely God or 11 getting involved with the space whale.  So I think Clara's reaction was overblown.  She's seen how dangerous the universe is, is she surprised that sometimes bad things happen, or people have to make tough choices?

 

But other than missing the landing, I thought the episode was good.  And Capaldi got to be a better Doctor, expressing awe at the universe.

 

Regarding the part I put in bold first - this feels exactly like what happened in "Listen", build up a lot of tension and then "poof" no more monster.  At least in this episode the resolution did not come out of nowhere, it followed its own logic.

 

I am beginning to think that Clara's outburst was a natural reaction to the stress of the situation.    On the simplest level, the Doctor left her and her charge on a moon about to be blown up (not to mention the creepy bugs!).  I can not see myself being at all rational even after seeing the space flying thing and the new egg/moon.

 

You didn't miss anything in the landing, Imagine a toy shuttle, wheels up, skidding to a stop on a grey landscape.

 

Is Clara in next week's episode?  She was conveniently left out of all the previews.  And this seems like the episode mentioned right after Amy and Rory's wedding, Egyptian goddess on the Orient Express.

It does seem like a take off on the adventure as you said with Rory, Amy and Eleven.  I always thought, as much as I wished to see such an episode, somethings are best left to the imagination.  

[cambridgeguy]

There's a line from Game of Thrones where they tell the bratty (to put it mildly) king that if you have to go around telling people that you're the king then you aren't a true king.  I wish the Doctor had just told Courtney that if she needs random weird alien dudes to tell her that she's special then she's just confirming that she's not.  Or perhaps Clara, a teacher, could have told her to prove the Doctor wrong with her actions rather than begging for his approval.

[elle]

Well, the show was originally conceived as an educational teatime programme for children, yes. The reboot was designed as family entertainment, rather than as a children's show, but still geared more toward children than adults. It's effectively teatime drama still, even though Strictly Come Dancing has pushed it back into a slightly later timeslot at the moment.

Taking this over to the UK/US Translation thread

Edited October 5, 2014 by elle

[Florinaldo]

The major plot holes, more numerous than usual, kept me from caring about the concluding moral dilemma. For example where did the extra mass of the Moon come from? Yes, the creature grew over the millenia but its nourishment had to come from somewhere; if it fed on the insides of its egg, that would amount to nothing more than a transferance of materials and it would not increase the total mass. But then again, spontaneous creation of matter seemed like one of its abilities as it produced a full-sized new Moon out of apparently nothing. I am not expecting a science lecture from the show, but it is usally a little more careful about such details than this week. Their understanding of tidal mechanics also seemed rather fuzzy.

 

It took very little time for the entire population of Earth to respond to Clara's message, even though it was broadcast only in English. The various populations were also very well coordinated, with whole countries or regions of continents going dark in one fell swoop (although it may have been the governments taking the grids off-line).

 

And what happened to the nuclear bombs left on the Moon when it exploded? That's a huge amount of dangerous dust now orbiting the Earth and eventually re-entering our atmosphere.

 

I cringed when it became clear that the Doctor was bringing an irritating kid along for the ride and Courtney ranked so high on the annoyance meter that she rivaled Clara on that front. The two of them in combination undermined my usual enjoyment of Capaldi's take as the Doctor, probably my favourite since the show's reboot.

 

Is it too much to hope that next week's episode might be Clara-free since she quit?

[Kalliste]

Is it too much to hope that next week's episode might be Clara-free since she quit?

I hope so but I'm concerned they're being sneaky and making us think she's not in the next episode but will be. You know, as a surprise, because that's obviously what we all want.

[ketose]

By the way, the shuttle can't make it to the moon or land on it, as far as I know. And where the hell is Torchwood? Don't they have a room full of space junk they could put together?

 

But that reminds me of another problem with Doctor Who. In the classic series, the Autons would take over a village on the outskirts of London or something and have to be fought as an invasion. Now, the whole planet is ruined. How about the first season, where humanity was reduced to watching deadly reality shows because of the Daleks? Then there were the various invasions. Can't they go to another planet that's been ravaged in some way. At its best, Doctor Who used to do allegory. They would tell a story by making it on another planet but really about humanity. Now, they just make an anthology series by constantly hitting the reset button.

[elle]

By the way, the shuttle can't make it to the moon or land on it, as far as I know. And where the hell is Torchwood? Don't they have a room full of space junk they could put together?

According to the wiki page, Torchwood was dismantled in 2010 and completely gone by 2011.  However, your point and question are still valid.  We have seen in "The Sound of Drums" that some of that space junk was salvaged from Torchwood.  It is out there.  Scary thought, too.

[ABay]

Torchwood didn't really need to be dismantled. Left to their own devices, they'd all get each other killed anyway.

[supposebly]

I liked the beginning. I hated the ending. It seems I don't miss much when I have other things to do on Saturdays.

 

If the third way, i.e. the Doctor's way is simply, tadaaaa! I knew it wouldn't be a problem! then there is a problem. It's annoying and I was kinda with Clara on that one. What's the point if you know what's going to happen?

 

Knowing the consequences is not clever but patronizing. I'm with Clara on this one. Huh. Now, there is a surprise.

 

I liked Courtney. Not all children are cool with life-or-death situations. Most would scream their head off and run. I thought it made her a normal person.

[ketose]

According to the wiki page, Torchwood was dismantled in 2010 and completely gone by 2011.  However, your point and question are still valid.  We have seen in "The Sound of Drums" that some of that space junk was salvaged from Torchwood.  It is out there.  Scary thought, too.

Whoops. I meant the stuff that was in the Tower of London, which actually belonged to UNIT in 2013. Who knows where it went in 2049.

[ohjoy]

Moff has said that this season Clara is the main character, not the Doctor. And we are suffering for it. Also, maybe that's why the Doctor is so horrible. We aren't seeing him for who he is, we are seeing him through Clara's eyes. She misses 11, she sees 12 as horrible and gruff and a jerk compared to 12. I think Moff is wrong making Clara the main character and this season being her journey instead of the Doctor's. He's wasting the fabulous Capaldi and alienating a lot of his audience.

In my meaner moments, I replace "Clara" with "Moffat". It brings a lot of clarity to my frustration.

I also loved that the one person who was unilaterally focused on saving the alien was Courtney-because that's my experience as well. Kids, teens, even college students tend to be black and white and focused on environmental issues. They can't believe, quite, that anything bad will happen to people, so therefore, everyone should be saved. The astronaut was the one person with real experience as to how bad it had gotten. She wanted to do the least harm and at least stop it now. Clara didn't know how bad it was on Earth, didn't have the idealism of a child, and ultimately couldn't make up her mind, so she punted to the majority. Which is how most adults handle it, too. And while the astronaut could say "I was wrong", and Courtney was "It's so beautiful!!", Clara had a tantrum. Because she didn't want to make the decision one way or the other, the way Courtney and the Astronaut both had. She wanted the doctor to make the decision for her, to save her from herself, and to take the blame. The doctor chose not to do so. I think he made the right choice.

Thanks -- now I think I can understand why she threw that tantrum. Doesn't make it necessarily right, but at least it now makes some sort of sense. Edited October 5, 2014 by RandomMe

[prospazzinator]

Not a fan of this episode at all. I really only liked Courtney, but I think it's more because I'm over the Doctor and Clara than because Courtney is so great. 

 

I laughed hard at them throwing in the poncho on one of the chairs at the Mexican station on the moon. Cause nothing says "Mexico" better than a poncho, right? Jeebus.

[mac123x]

I'm also coming around to the "fuck off soon, Clara" camp.  To me, her rant at the end had an admission with huge consequences:  "I almost let the countdown go" or something similar.  In my mind, the only reason she stopped the countdown was because she had been expecting the Doctor to show up, and he hadn't yet, so she was going to die.  She only stopped the bombs for purely selfish reasons.

 

If she'd raged at the Doctor for that. I might have sympathized.  "I didn't save the baby because it was the right thing to do!  I made what could have been the wrong decision and condemned billions of people on Earth to potentially die because I was afraid!" would have been more dramatic and understandable to me than her bitch-fest.  Also, it would have been a nice little bit of characterization for Mary Clara Sue.

 

On another note, upon seeing the MotW for next weeks episode, did anyone else say, "Are you my mummy?"?

[Kalliste]

I'm also coming around to the "fuck off soon, Clara" camp.  To me, her rant at the end had an admission with huge consequences:  "I almost let the countdown go" or something similar.  In my mind, the only reason she stopped the countdown was because she had been expecting the Doctor to show up, and he hadn't yet, so she was going to die.  She only stopped the bombs for purely selfish reasons.

 

If she'd raged at the Doctor for that. I might have sympathized.  "I didn't save the baby because it was the right thing to do!  I made what could have been the wrong decision and condemned billions of people on Earth to potentially die because I was afraid!" would have been more dramatic and understandable to me than her bitch-fest.  Also, it would have been a nice little bit of characterization for Mary Clara Sue.

 

On another note, upon seeing the MotW for next weeks episode, did anyone else say, "Are you my mummy?"?

 

I thought this exactly. She figured the Doctor would come save the day, when he didn't she stopped the bomb because she didn't want to die, not because she wanted to save a mystery creature.

 

And no, I never even thought to say "are you my mummy?" I wish I had now :P Maybe when the episode airs :D

[elle]

On another note, upon seeing the MotW for next weeks episode, did anyone else say, "Are you my mummy?"?

Ha!  and No.

 

But.

 

I was watching "The Canterville Ghost" with Charles Laughton.  There is a scene where the soldiers scare his ghost by dressing up in white sheets with their gas masks over them.  I thought "yeah, man, that really IS scary!"

[benteen]

The conflict just feels contrived this season, between The Doctor and Clara and especially between The Doctor and Danny.  I agree that The Doctor really hasn't been able to be fully fleshed out because of Moffat's ridiculous notion that Clara the part-time companion is the main character of Doctor Who and not a viewpoint character.  I've liked Capaldi and there's been episodes/moment I've enjoyed but the jury is still out on this season for me.  I'm looking forward to when this Doctor gets a companion of his choosing and when this show eventually gets a showrunner worthy of it.

[Robert]

I know it is the most minor of nit-picks but the one thing that bugged me was Lundvik saying that her Nan use to be on Tumblr. If the episode is only 35 years in the future and Lundvik is approximately Hermione Norris' age (47), shouldn't Lundvik be the Tumblr user? Tumblr is known as the younger persons social media site (unless dear old Nanna had a thing for gay porn and cat memes) and I see it far more likely Lundvik would have an account herself and not her 50+ grandmother. ;)

 

Anyhoo, I am just not feeling either Doctor or Companion this season. I think we definitely need another Donna. I realize it is going to take quiet some getting use to Capaldi's darker take on the Doctor after two quirky, funny, wonky and slightly deranged (in a humorous way) Doctors in a row. I think this would work quiet well with another Companion (any companion at this point!) but Clara is more-and-more feeling like a square peg trying to fit itself into a round hole. It just isn't working. The Impossible Girl has just become  impossible to like.

 

I am often quiet willing to forgive and forget bad sci-fi if they at least try to give us a throwaway line somewhere (i.e; the change in mass/new moon egg being something with maybe the creature being somewhat out of whack with space and time or something technobabbly to that effect) but the fact they didn't even try that reeks of lazy writing.

[MartinKSmith]

I feel I need to step in and stick up for Clara. I'm enjoying her more and more this season. She's still not my favourite companion, but she's definitely not near the bottom of the list (that spot will forever be reserved for Martha). 

 

I'm also enjoying the new Doctor more and more as each week goes by. Capaldi, for me, is nailing this role. 

[darkestboy]

Okay, I needed another viewing or two but overall I liked this episode.

It was trying to be a bit similar to The Waters Of Mars and while not as good, I did like the moral dilemma in spite of the idea of the Moon as an egg type of thing.

Clara and the Doctor's final scene was harsh and they'll undoubtedly make up but at the same time, the seeds for her eventual exit are being sown here. I do not see her going into the next series.

Courtney was more likeable in this episode than expected but her as a future US president is a bit, I'm not sure really.

Lundvik was a bit too jaded for my liking. Norris could've done with brightening the character a little. None of her crew made an impression either.

The spiders/bacteria looked effective enough and the Danny cameo was alright I guess, 8/10
 

[Enigma X]

I wrote this on the wrong thread:

 

I hated this last episode. I hate most of this season. I have liked Capaldi in other things. I don't hate Clara. Although the blame for most of this season is being placed on Clara, for me, I don't like Moffat's writing of the doctor and Capaldi's portrayal.

[Llywela]

 Although the blame for most of this season is being placed on Clara, for me, I don't like Moffat's writing of the doctor and Capaldi's portrayal.

To be honest, the writing and direction aren't doing either of them any favours.

[MadMouse]

I'm not Clara's biggest fan but her anger at the end was justified. The Doctor has been pretty callous since his regeneration and quite insulting to her personally. I don't think it was about him leaving as much as it was about him holding back information that would've helped her make an informed decision. And then he pats her on the head for making the right choice. It was patronizing beyond words and he deserved every bit of anger directed at him.