S04.E08: Wow

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, WAnglais1 said:

For a previous poster: "Theatre" is where you watch a play. That's how I've always spelled it, anyway. "Theater" is a movie place. 

Lots of folks who are into drama make that distinction, though most editorial style guides (AP, CMS, etc.) prefer "theater" in both cases. The bigger issue is that a lot of theaters—both live theaters and movie theaters—spell it "theatre" in their proper names, and proper names override editorial style. It's always an annoying thing to have to fact-check as an editor, because you'll google around to see if it should be "Aragon Theater" or "Aragon Theatre," and the theater's website will spell it both ways and the marquee will just say "Aragon."

[carrps]

35 minutes ago, Starchild said:

There's worse. You need to watch an episode of Bonanza set in winter. I swear they just used soap.

I think in the old days, they did use soap flakes.

[WAnglais1]

24 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Lots of folks who are into drama make that distinction, though most editorial style guides (AP, CMS, etc.) prefer "theater" in both cases. The bigger issue is that a lot of theaters—both live theaters and movie theaters—spell it "theatre" in their proper names, and proper names override editorial style. It's always an annoying thing to have to fact-check as an editor, because you'll google around to see if it should be "Aragon Theater" or "Aragon Theatre," and the theater's website will spell it both ways and the marquee will just say "Aragon."

Fair enough. Everywhere I've worked has been "re."

Thanks!

[shelley1234]

I have always spelled it theatre.  Grew up in the suburbs in Upstate NY.  Just a wee bit pretentious.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by shelley1234
It autocorrected to theater. Hilarious.

[cpcathy]

Um, OK. I never expected Barry to make it out alive. Hader has been super clear that, when fans tell him they love Barry and hate Sally, he always said, “ But Barry kills people.” 
I was disappointed, but I guess I haven’t liked a series finale since, maybe Newhart, LOL. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by cpcathy

[DrSpaceman73]

56 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I have always spelled it theatre.  Grew up in the suburbs in Upstate NY.  Just a wee bit pretentious.  

Do you eat steamed Hams?

[aghst]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

Um, OK. I never expected Barry to make it out alive. Header has been super clear that, when fans tell him they love Barry and hate Sally, he always said, “ But Barry kills people.” 
I was disappointed, but I guess I haven’t liked a series finale since, maybe Newhart, LOL. 

It seems Hader was worried about another bad character not facing justice at the end of a series.

He had had Barry escape consequences all this time, in comic ways like when that detective arrested him and it looked like Barry was done for and the detective said he'd let him go if he killed his wife's lover and Barry said "WHAT?!?"

Or him escaping prison in this season and pretty much living in hiding, not a great life but still he didn't have to face the consequences for all his deeds.

So he was going to kill off the character or lock him up no matter what.  Just don't think Cousineau is as culpable or deserving of being put away in prison.  He may have been venal and vain but he didn't commit half the crimes that characters like Barry, Fuches and Hank committed.  He's the only one paying maybe a fate worse than death.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Starchild said:

Regardless, he did kill an unarmed man who was no threat to him at that moment,

Gene had reasonably presumed Barry was there to kill him and that Barry was armed. This was how Gene wound up shooting his son too (presuming someone armed to kill Gene was at the door).
Gene mostly wound up in these situations because he wanted to be respected as an actor and have his name known far and wide
— although, seemingly anyone who crossed paths with Barry was doomed.
In the end, ironically(?) Gene's name was known far and wide for his "roles" in  the stories of murders and attempted murders which were — for the most part — fictional — both the murder stories in the press and the murder stories in the so-called documentary. 

 

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

that was the fakest looking fake snow on her car that I have ever seen on TV. It looked like dryer lint.

LOL. It was, wasn't it?

 

[Starchild]

2 hours ago, carrps said:

I think in the old days, they did use soap flakes.

This wasn't just flakes, it was soapy water lol. It was dripping off fake trees, and they were trudging through muddy rivulets of the stuff.

I'm specifically thinking of the 3rd season episode that was like Heidi (a blind orphan going to live with her gruff grandfather in the mountains.)

[Joimiaroxeu]

Was Barry in California when he bought those guns on the fly at the big box store? Even in the somewhat distant future I don't see that happening.

Sally sobered up, finally. She'll probably be a bit of a dry drunk for a while though.

Worst henchmen ever. None of those guys thought to wear Kevlar?

"Oh wow." But I guess subconsciously Barry was ready to die if he went to Gene's house unprotected.

Geez, I hope John didn't think that movie was a factual documentary. But who wrote the script, Sally? It would benefit her to be able to live off Barry's reflected glory, fake though it may be.

Barry was buried in Arlington National Cemetery with honors. WTAF. Bravo, Bill Hader. I did not see that coming.

It's been quite a ride. I look forward to seeing what Hader does next.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Joimiaroxeu

[Amarsir]

I liked the ending as far as Barry, Gene, and Fuches.

• Barry never really accepted the difference between acting like a person and being that person. Out in the middle of nowhere he was much more consistent with his pious acting than Sally was in her role. But the instant Gene resurfaced Barry had no hesitation to go kill him. And only after that decision did he go on a podcast search to justify it. 
  In the end he was prevented from taking responsibility and thus the legacy he leaves is also fake.
• Gene did himself in the moment he turned from opposing the movie to supporting it. We know it was shallowness to get Mark Wahlberg to play the part, but to everyone else that's so inconsistent with mourning the love of his life that he lost all trust. Shooting Barry isn't even necessary for Gene's story at that point, but it does tie things up more easily.
  (Specifically the portrayal of the law has never made sense. Not from minute one when an LA detective had enough time to dwell on "Who shot back at two known gangsters?" I was able to overlook it all along, but it's easier now if Gene's actually guilty of something.)
• Fuches earned his salvation by being an anti-Barry. He admitted to living his life as a non-soldier who encouraged violence in others. Then he got a life as an actual Boss, but resisted carrying violence forward to John. (Either by hurting him to punish Barry or making him the next Barry prototype.) Of everyone he gained the most self-awareness.

What I wasn't crazy about:

• I can accept Hank's outcome via the poetry of dying under Cristobal's statue. But he deserved a tangible self-inflicted outcome and "close-range shootout with the Raven crew" wasn't punchy enough. He should have had the statue fall on him or throw a grenade and have it bounce back. His role was always rife with irony and his death should have been too.
• With Sally I feel like they dropped the ball. The broad strokes are fine: get John away from Barry and accept non-fame but never really be happy. But did the hallucinations ever go away? Did she ever recognize that she's the one who put John in danger by going to LA?
  Overall I just don't think she had enough of a through-line in the last season. Maybe she was just representing randomness for a while, getting good and bad breaks she didn't really deserve. Even the guy she killed in self-defense was a random intruder. Then she did some self-inflicted damage, still was able to come back, and chose not to. And since then she was just the means for Barry to have a son. 
  In the end it wasn't a character arc so much as a character scatter-graph. Did she value fame, art, truth, approval, excitement, or motherhood? All were yes at one point or no at another, and I just don't know where she ended up.

 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Geez, I hope John didn't think that movie was a factual documentary. But who wrote the script, Sally? It would benefit her to be able to live off Barry's reflected glory, fake though it may be.

Considering that Henry Winkler is known to be a really nice guy, I've come up with a possible explanation of what happened "behind the scenes" with Winkler's character, Gene Cousineau, that works with what we saw: 

Gene finds out from his agent Tom that Barry was intending to turn himself in, and Gene also saw that Barry was not armed. 
Gene immediately feels deep remorse, flashing back to his feelings of Barry being like a son to him and a protégé. 

So, for Gene's final act, he claims responsibility for Janice's and Barry's deaths, and then, perhaps with Tom's help and maybe even with Sally getting credit$, gets the "Documentary" made for the sake of Barry's son John, so John might know his father as a better role model than Gene's son had known himself, and so John will not hate his father, and also so John's heart will not be broken by his father.  
 

Edited May 30, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Fake Jan Brady]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Geez, I hope John didn't think that movie was a factual documentary. But who wrote the script, Sally? It would benefit her to be able to live off Barry's reflected glory, fake though it may be.

Barry was buried in Arlington National Cemetery with honors. WTAF. Bravo, Bill Hader. I did not see that coming.

This just occurred to me: I wonder if Sally and John participated in the funeral? "Sally Reed" was in the movie, I wonder why Sally Reed didn't get a postscript in the credits.

[AheadofStraight]

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I agree with your first point about "dark comedy" and "dramedy" being thrown around a lot and over-used. However, I strongly disagree that this was always straight drama. The first two seasons are easily 50% comedy 50% drama. It's only these last two seasons that have gotten darker. There's a reason a lot of people have complained it's not as funny as it used to be. Now, maybe it's just the natural progression for a story like this to get darker and darker, but it sure didn't start out that way, no matter how many times Bill Hader insists it did. If it was always meant to be dark and brooding then maybe they shouldn't have made the first two seasons so funny.

Wasn't the show also nominated in the Outstanding Comedy series Emmy category as well? 

[Galileo908]

4 hours ago, Amarsir said:

I can accept Hank's outcome via the poetry of dying under Cristobal's statue. But he deserved a tangible self-inflicted outcome and "close-range shootout with the Raven crew" wasn't punchy enough. He should have had the statue fall on him or throw a grenade and have it bounce back. His role was always rife with irony and his death should have been too.

I dunno, finally finding a spine and telling Fuches to go fuck himself and dying for it felt self-inflicted to me.

 

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Worst henchmen ever. None of those guys thought to wear Kevlar?

Barry was Hank's only competent henchman, this instance was no exception.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Galileo908

[Chyromaniac]

I was kind of hoping to see Kenneth Goulet credtited as an “Executive Consultant” on the movie.  

[Corgi-ears]

I seldom like any show or movie that has a "oh, look, if those terrible Hollywood ghouls made a version of the events you just watched, it would be terrible hahaha so see how great and uncompromising and artful our version is by comparison?!" segment. It's obvious, self-congratulatory, and depends on a strawman. (That's the end of the sentence; there's no "but.")

Edited May 30, 2023 by Corgi-ears

[Demian]

13 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Yikes.  As a resident of one of the communities that have had recent mass shootings at a big box store where the employees wear blue vests, that scene (sorry for the pun) triggered me!

I think it's triggering all of us, and I think that's the point.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/28/2023 at 9:55 PM, shapeshifter said:

Fuches thinks he has no blood on his hands and paid his debts to Barry by returning his son to him. 

My own take--based on what I saw in Fuches' eyes, thanks to the magnificent talent of Stephen Root--is that Fuches in this moment is back in touch with the deepest emotion of his life, his love for Barry. One minute ago he might have thought of holding the kid for ransom or blackmail. But now, looking at Barry, feeling his love for Barry, he has only one choice.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/28/2023 at 10:45 PM, sistermagpie said:

I wasn't sure if John was supposed to be fooled by the movie and see Barry as a hero with a tricky legacy.

I viewed it as John getting a resolution we would have wished for him. He can go forward now, believing the legend, and the damage inflicted on him can begin to heal. As dumbass as the movie was, I view John's reaction to it as analogous to the moment in Carousel when Billy's daughter can feel his presence at her high school graduation, and know that she'll never walk alone. 

[Milburn Stone]

18 hours ago, Dev F said:

...most editorial style guides (AP, CMS, etc.) prefer "theater" [whether a movie or a stage play/musical].

My own usage--and I don't know if I'm right, it's just what I do--is that theater is the correct word for the building in which a movie or stage play or musical takes place, and theatre is the correct word for the art form. (E.g., "Sondheim was and remains a seminal figure in the world of musical theatre.")

[Tachi Rocinante]

Disappointed with most of the episode, and the final season in general.

Hank should have been dead when he jumped out of the car.

The "movie" was atrocious and a weak attempt at social commentary on Hollywood.

[Starchild]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Considering that Henry Winkler is known to be a really nice guy, I've come up with a possible explanation of what happened "behind the scenes" with Winkler's character, Gene Cousineau, that works with what we saw: 

Gene finds out from his agent Tom that Barry was intending to turn himself in, and Gene also saw that Barry was not armed. 
Gene immediately feels deep remorse, flashing back to his feelings of Barry being like a son to him and a protégé. 

So, for Gene's final act, he claims responsibility for Janice's and Barry's deaths, and then, perhaps with Tom's help and maybe even with Sally getting credit$, gets the "Documentary" made for the sake of Barry's son John, so John might know his father as a better role model than Gene's son had known himself, and so John will not hate his father, and also so John's heart will not be broken by his father.  
 

Not bad, but I don't believe Gene ever felt that deeply for Barry, certainly didn't regard him like a son. He may not have felt that deeply for his own son, but that's ambiguous.

I think he just didn't have any way to counter the accusations against him, other than his own word, which is naturally going to be suspect.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Not bad, but I don't believe Gene ever felt that deeply for Barry, certainly didn't regard him like a son. He may not have felt that deeply for his own son, but that's ambiguous.

I think he just didn't have any way to counter the accusations against him, other than his own word, which is naturally going to be suspect.

So maybe Gene will ghost write a book from prison that is a play within a play about:

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Gene finds out from his agent Tom that Barry was intending to turn himself in, and Gene also saw that Barry was not armed. 
Gene immediately feels deep remorse, flashing back to his feelings of Barry being like a son to him and a protégé. 

So, for Gene's final act, he claims responsibility for Janice's and Barry's deaths, and then, perhaps with Tom's help and maybe even with Sally getting credit$, gets the "Documentary" made for the sake of Barry's son John, so John might know his father as a better role model than Gene's son had known himself, and so John will not hate his father, and also so John's heart will not be broken by his father.

Too meta? 
Hey, maybe Sally can produce it, since she doesn't know (yet) that John has seen the not-Documentary, and probably would justify destroying John's revamped image of his father if it boosted her career.

 

[aghst]

Andy Greenwald pointed out that most productions wouldn't put a child actor in the middle of something potentially traumatic like that shootout scene.

He said it was notable that Barry leaned into it, put John in the shootout rather than shield him.

 

I'm sure they explained to the actor, his agent, his parents that it was all make believe.

It was short at least.

[iMonrey]

21 hours ago, cpcathy said:

I never expected Barry to make it out alive. Hader has been super clear that, when fans tell him they love Barry and hate Sally, he always said, “ But Barry kills people.” 

It's strange, but from various interviews I've read or heard about, it seems like Hader himself is somewhat out of touch with how the audience in general is perceiving the show, his character, etc. I've always managed to find Barry a sympathetic character despite his profession as a hit man. Hader apparently doesn't think I'm supposed to. Sally has always seemed superficial and phony to me. Barry is genuine. There's the difference.

Edited May 30, 2023 by iMonrey

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Andy Greenwald pointed out that most productions wouldn't put a child actor in the middle of something potentially traumatic like that shootout scene. He said it was notable that Barry leaned into it, put John in the shootout rather than shield him. I'm sure they explained to the actor, his agent, his parents that it was all make believe. It was short at least.

The kid was in the master as guns were going off and people were being maimed? I didn't even notice that!

[hatchetgirl]

16 hours ago, Amarsir said:

He should have had the statue fall on him

THIS would have been brilliant!  

Quote

I viewed it as John getting a resolution we would have wished for him. He can go forward now, believing the legend, and the damage inflicted on him can begin to heal. 

I feel terrible for this kid.  He is an utter mess.  His mother is still awful, even though she seems happy.  She couldn't even tell him she loves him.  

Bill Hader did an awesome job of creating a really terrible character that you feel empathy for in Barry.  He was a complete broken person who was manipulated by multiple people to do what he did best.  I've never felt so badly for a mercenary (well except Leon from The Professional) and hated the people around him so much!  They were all "decent" people in that they lived their lives as we do, but they were just lacking in any goodness.  Then you have Barry, who's so broken and he's murdering people, yet, I felt for him.  He didn't even have a chance.

Edited May 30, 2023 by hatchetgirl

[meep.meep]

17 hours ago, Amarsir said:

 

• With Sally I feel like they dropped the ball. The broad strokes are fine: get John away from Barry and accept non-fame but never really be happy. But did the hallucinations ever go away? Did she ever recognize that she's the one who put John in danger by going to LA?

 

I thought that Sally's breakdown where she told John she had been a bad mother was the point where she turned things around.  She did realize that she put John into danger.  After that she had the presence of mind to leave Barry in the middle of the night and take John with her.  She rescued herself and her child.  Before that she relied on Barry to take care of her.

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's strange, but from various interviews I've read or heard about, it seems like Hader himself is somewhat out of touch with how the audience in general is perceiving the show, his character, etc. I've always managed to find Barry a sympathetic character despite his profession as a hit man. Hader apparently doesn't think I'm supposed to. Sally has always seemed superficial and phony to me. Barry is genuine. There's the difference.

I don't necessarily think Hader is out of step with how people see this show.  I think he knows that, given Barry is the main character, there will be people who take his side just as there were people rooting for Tony Soprano and Walter White. 

His "but he kills people" is him just pointing out a fact.  It's fiction so people like what they like but loving Barry while hating Sally as characters still boils down to thinking murdering people is forgivable while being self-absorbed is not. He likely doesn't share that belief nor do I think he undercuts it with his show.

That said, I think both Barry and Sally are authentic in that they both tell themselves lies. It's just that Barry has gotten so good at believing them whereas Sally still has moments of awareness. 

[Ottis]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:09 AM, SoMuchTV said:

 

Yikes.  As a resident of one of the communities that have had recent mass shootings at a big box store where the employees wear blue vests, that scene (sorry for the pun) triggered me!

Though there are now states where what Barry did can, in fact, happen. No need for a carry conceal requirement, etc. Not sure you can walk out right away, but would not be surprised if you can.

[shelley1234]

I always enjoy when a show gives us a complex character who is the bad guy, the absolute villian....but they tell their story in such a compelling way that you understand them and still root for them.  Barry is a bad bad man who deserves his consequences, but I still was sad when the screen went to black and Barry was dead.  But isn't that true in life?  Some people care about mass murderers and serial killers.   They see more than just their horrible acts.  I grew to care about Barry and wished he could find a way out of the life his trauma and his choices created for himself.  

[aghst]

Maybe I’m misremembering but some of the scenes of Barry’s kills in early seasons were set up with comic undertones rather than grim scenes of violence.

So I get that Hader thinks Barry must pay for his crimes but some of the murders helped to establish the show’s mixture of comedy and drama.

Certainly even these scenes where their horrific nature is underplayed or glossed over all contribute to his body count.

But I get the sense that Berg and Hader initially hadn’t plotted out the end of the show or this particular ending.  Instead when they were doing post-episode discussions about the episodes, their demeanor and tone were light, maybe even jovial, because they knew the comic elements were driving both the popularity and critical reception of the show in the first two seasons.

It feels like they abruptly shifted gears, especially this last season and finale.

I believe this is Hader’s first show where he makes the final creative decisions.  Maybe he has some other ideas or he wanted to take a break from the grind so they kind of wrapped things up fast.  It’s only 4 seasons but they’ve been at it for a couple years more because of the pandemic, so maybe there’s a burnout factor.

[PinkRibbons]

I strongly suspect Hader has blinders on to his own natural lovability. I would say he's charming, but it's more that he projects a lot of sweetness in both his real life persona and his roles. Barry to me was like a rabid puppy - so sweet and cute but dangerous beyond words, and with no help to be had.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

He said it was notable that Barry leaned into it, put John in the shootout rather than shield him.

 

It did remind me of Boardwalk Empire, which had even more violent a shootout with a kid in the middle.

[TVbitch]

Don't understand why Gene's manager and Sally are letting Gene take the fall, especially after Sally asked Barry to turn himself in to keep Gene from going to prison (right after the shoot-out, before she took off with John). And she had already told John that Barry was a murderer. 

This last season went a bit astray for me, but in general I will check out anything Bill Hader does in the future, as he has shown he is original, funny and creative.

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

Maybe I’m misremembering but some of the scenes of Barry’s kills in early seasons were set up with comic undertones rather than grim scenes of violence.

So I get that Hader thinks Barry must pay for his crimes but some of the murders helped to establish the show’s mixture of comedy and drama.

Certainly even these scenes where their horrific nature is underplayed or glossed over all contribute to his body count.

But I get the sense that Berg and Hader initially hadn’t plotted out the end of the show or this particular ending.  Instead when they were doing post-episode discussions about the episodes, their demeanor and tone were light, maybe even jovial, because they knew the comic elements were driving both the popularity and critical reception of the show in the first two seasons.

It feels like they abruptly shifted gears, especially this last season and finale.

I believe this is Hader’s first show where he makes the final creative decisions.  Maybe he has some other ideas or he wanted to take a break from the grind so they kind of wrapped things up fast.  It’s only 4 seasons but they’ve been at it for a couple years more because of the pandemic, so maybe there’s a burnout factor.

You've expressed my feelings very well.  Thank you!  This last episode just went off the rails for me.  Of course with this type of material it would be very hard to produce an ending that would reconcile all these conflicting emotions and ideas. 

[meep.meep]

22 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

Don't understand why Gene's manager and Sally are letting Gene take the fall, especially after Sally asked Barry to turn himself in to keep Gene from going to prison (right after the shoot-out, before she took off with John). And she had already told John that Barry was a murderer. 

This last season went a bit astray for me, but in general I will check out anything Bill Hader does in the future, as he has shown he is original, funny and creative.

But now Gene has shot Barry in cold blood in front of a witness.  Even if he beats the Janice murder charges, he's going to jail for murdering Barry.  And then of course, if he killed one person, why is it inconceivable that he killed a second one?  Gene screwed himself.

[Dev F]

1 minute ago, meep.meep said:

But now Gene has shot Barry in cold blood in front of a witness.  Even if he beats the Janice murder charges, he's going to jail for murdering Barry.  And then of course, if he killed one person, why is it inconceivable that he killed a second one?  Gene screwed himself.

He killed the man who was arrested for his girlfriend's murder. There's an entirely coherent theory of the crime that exonerates Gene of the earlier crime rather than implicating him in it, and in light of that, I don't see how the "Gene is the mastermind" alternative overcomes the burden of proof.

But now that I think about it, the episode could've sold the "Gene is the mastermind" explanation much better than it did. As portrayed, the shooting is very clearly a crime of passion: Barry is talking to Tom about his plan to turn himself in, and Gene doesn't even hear what he's saying, instead just barging in and opening fire without thinking. Considering Gene has a sympathetic witness, Tom, it's hard for me to work out a scenario in which the police conclude that the murder was in cold blood, except by assuming that Tom somehow believes Gene heard Barry's plan to confess and killed him because of it, and decided his old friend was in fact an evil mastermind. That's quite a turnabout to happen completely off screen.

But what if the shooting had been in cold blood? As in, Gene did hear Barry say that he wanted to turn himself in and take responsibility for all his crimes, and killed him because of it—because he couldn't bear the thought that the man who murdered his girlfriend would get to redeem himself easy-peasey after everything he'd done. In that scenario, it'd be much easier for me to buy that Tom would be horrified and turn on Gene—plus it would add to the irony of the show's final turn, if killing Barry to prevent him from redeeming himself is what validated the "Gene as mastermind" theory and redeemed Barry in the eyes of the world.

[shelley1234]

Someone remind me....there was an article before Barry went to see Gene to confess that he was suspected of his girlfriend's murder instead of Barry.  Where did that speculation come from??  I missed that and I thought I was paying attention.  

[TVbitch]

50 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

But now Gene has shot Barry in cold blood in front of a witness.  Even if he beats the Janice murder charges, he's going to jail for murdering Barry.  And then of course, if he killed one person, why is it inconceivable that he killed a second one?  Gene screwed himself.

If I walked into my living room and saw the guy who killed my girlfriend, kindnapped me, threatened my son, and who I know wanted me dead, I would probably shoot first and ask "so what brings you by?" later. A self defense argument could easily be made, especially if Sally confirmed Barry was a multi-murderer who wanted to kill Gene. 

[drinkduff]

The thing about Barry is that he likes to say he wants to be a good person, he will try to stop killing people, but when it comes time for him to actually pay for what he's done, he never chooses the right path. He was only a good person if it didn't mean he had to be held responsible for his actions. He killed Janice instead of turning himself in, killed Hank's men because Fuches told Gene who he really was, threatened, kidnapped and bribed Gene to not turn him in. He told Sally he either had to kill Gene or they'd leave their son and kill themselves. Everytime he had the chance to do the right thing and pay for his crimes (which is what an actual good person would do) he never did. I assumed the show would either end with him dead or him turning himself in, finally realizing that if he was really good he would pay for what he did. I guess it was kind of both, but when he was finally going to turn himself in, it wasn't to help Gene or because of any sort of self awareness, it was just because Sally and John were gone. I do feel that Gene did not deserve the ending he got, as bad as he could be, this was a pretty dark ending for him. 

 

 

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, TVbitch said:

If I walked into my living room and saw the guy who killed my girlfriend, kindnapped me, threatened my son, and who I know wanted me dead, I would probably shoot first and ask "so what brings you by?" later. A self defense argument could easily be made, especially if Sally confirmed Barry was a multi-murderer who wanted to kill Gene. 

Yes, but after the first, possibly fatal shot to Barry’s chest, close to his heart if not through Barry’s heart — causing Barry to say “Wow” — Gene empties the gun into Barry, including a shot between the eyes, which could go either way if Gene pled self defense, even against Barry.

[BC4ME]

4 hours ago, drinkduff said:

The thing about Barry is that he likes to say he wants to be a good person, he will try to stop killing people, but when it comes time for him to actually pay for what he's done, he never chooses the right path. He was only a good person if it didn't mean he had to be held responsible for his actions.

Yes. As you said we saw this over and over. The worst part is, I wanted to believe he was a good person so I kept hoping he would be. That final time were he was faced with doing the right thing but it would be really hard and he started hedging it finally seemed more obvious to me. Yet at the end, after I'd given up hope for him, he finally might've done the right thing, for whatever reason.

[Baltimore Betty]

So what became of Fuchs??

[tennisgurl]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:43 PM, SHD said:

It would’ve been really funny if Daniel Day Lewis really did show up in that movie.

I was so expecting it to be Daniel Day Lewis, but I guess he's busy with his retirement! or he was less interested in playing Gene as a villain instead of a hero?

That was one wild ending, I think I'm mostly happy with it. I know that a lot of people were unhappy about the shows darker turn the last two season, and I think that the show got a bit smug as it reminded us that Barry is a killer but we all rooted for him anyway, but I think the darker turn was inevitable. Barry and Gene were both brought down by their own flaws and mistakes, which were sort of charmingly funny in a dark sort of way at first but then when we spent more time with them we started to see more of the consequences of those actions and how messed up it all was, especially with Barry. I went into this expecting Barry to die, even though I still have sympathy for Barry he's done so many awful things it seems wrong for him to get to ride into the sunset, but this is still a weird sort of happy ending for him. He's dead, but he gets reimagined as the hero of his story, the wronged party, he gets one last performance in after death, he finally gets to be forgiven and start all over in Hollywood, which is what he wanted. He even gets the full military funeral! 

Gene really brought on a lot of his own problems thanks to his selfishness and ego, but I still feel bad that he was sent to jail for killing Janie and that he's been cast as the villain of his own story. Of course, knowing Gene, he might be happy just to know that his name is still being said, even if its in this fucked up way. 

I still feel so bad for John, he's clearly going to spend his whole life having to feed his mothers massive insecurities, but at least he's actually allowed to be around people and have friends now and it does seem like he and Sally are in a decent place. Sally seems happy being a quirky high school drama teacher and she did seem to have a sort of breakthrough with John when she apologized for being a bad mom and putting him in danger. 

I was really hoping for Fuches to get his, I was surprised that he actually gave John back to Barry and then just disappeared into the night. Hank dying while looking up at Cristobal's statue was a poetic way for him to go. I thought that he might make it out but I guess like with everyone else his choices made this inevitable. 

The "Based on a True Story" movie was hilariously bad, but the kind of bad that I can see being made. I love the shots at the sort of movies that sell themselves as being a true story but are clearly being changed to better fit a narrative format, no matter if its actually true or not.

I will defiantly be checking out whatever Bill Hader does after this.

[Starchild]

16 hours ago, TVbitch said:

If I walked into my living room and saw the guy who killed my girlfriend, kindnapped me, threatened my son, and who I know wanted me dead, I would probably shoot first and ask "so what brings you by?" later. A self defense argument could easily be made, especially if Sally confirmed Barry was a multi-murderer who wanted to kill Gene. 

Easy for a man maybe. There are many women who have killed their abusive partners at a time they were not being directly threatened, simply because to wait until they were in danger from someone much stronger than them would be suicide. Most of them are still found guilty and sentenced to prison.

If Gene got off for killing an unarmed man who wasn't threatening him at that moment, it would be pretty insulting to those women.

[Amarsir]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:03 PM, meep.meep said:

I thought that Sally's breakdown where she told John she had been a bad mother was the point where she turned things around.  She did realize that she put John into danger.  After that she had the presence of mind to leave Barry in the middle of the night and take John with her.  She rescued herself and her child.  Before that she relied on Barry to take care of her.

That window of relying on Barry was fairly short. She didn't want Barry handling her ex for her. When she had her own show she was telling him how to play the boyfriend, not relying on him as carer.  He got rid of the body and played night watchman when they were fugitives, but even then she was the breadwinner. (And I don't recall any evidence Barry knew she was stealing.) 

And then in the end it's not like she became a particularly good mother to John, given that she responded badly to his "Love you."

If they wanted to make it her character turn moment, she should have told Barry off and stormed out instead of slipping away in the night. That's what she wished she had done with her ex, but never could. At least leave him a note. Obviously she wasn't wrong to get John away. And it was some growth to do that instead of staying. I just don't think her character was substantially different afterwards.

It felt like the show was moving her out of the way to arrange the Barry/Gene ending. Much like how easily Barry escaped the episode before. Or Unexplained House Destruction made her seek out Barry in LA. I understand she was never the main character. But it's still unsatisfactory.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, Amarsir said:

If they wanted to make it her character turn moment, she should have told Barry off and stormed out instead of slipping away in the night. That's what she wished she had done with her ex, but never could.

I think that would've represented devolution, not development. That was who Sally wished she was, and the end of season 2 presents it as a failure when she acts out that false version of her own story instead of the uglier, truer version she'd originally written.

Throughout the series, in fact, the characters are held back by their delusional belief that they can change in ways they actually can't. Sally and Fuches are the only ones who ultimately make some sort of peace with the fact that they are who they are and they can't change it. If Sally ends up as a somewhat self-obsessed drama teacher who doesn't need Hollywood fame or a man to validate her, that's probably the most positive outcome anyone on a show this cynical could've hoped for.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Dev F

[heatherchandler]

On 5/30/2023 at 2:42 PM, aghst said:

Maybe I’m misremembering but some of the scenes of Barry’s kills in early seasons were set up with comic undertones rather than grim scenes of violence.

So I get that Hader thinks Barry must pay for his crimes but some of the murders helped to establish the show’s mixture of comedy and drama.

Certainly even these scenes where their horrific nature is underplayed or glossed over all contribute to his body count.

But I get the sense that Berg and Hader initially hadn’t plotted out the end of the show or this particular ending.  Instead when they were doing post-episode discussions about the episodes, their demeanor and tone were light, maybe even jovial, because they knew the comic elements were driving both the popularity and critical reception of the show in the first two seasons.

It feels like they abruptly shifted gears, especially this last season and finale.

I believe this is Hader’s first show where he makes the final creative decisions.  Maybe he has some other ideas or he wanted to take a break from the grind so they kind of wrapped things up fast.  It’s only 4 seasons but they’ve been at it for a couple years more because of the pandemic, so maybe there’s a burnout factor.

Re-watching the first season.  What a difference in tone, and all around feel of the show.  Everything shifted and not for the better.