S04.E10: With Open Eyes

[Avabelle]

58 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

It's not clear Shiv had a clear reason for changing her mind at the last minute other than she simply couldn't bear to see Kendall get the coveted crown

Having rewatched the episode I think it was pure sibling jealousy. She hated how cocky he was and just wanted to hurt him. It was cruel. While some of the theories here of why she might have done it are really well thought and layered I don’t think she’s that deep. It’s clear she hates Tom as she’s now been deeply hurt by him. She’s lost just as much as Kendall has and it’s all her own doing because she just couldn’t let him have the win. She could have taken back the power with Tom by voting no to the deal.
 

Also since when did either of them give a shit about Kendall’s waiter confession. Obviously we know it’s a terrible thing but they’re cold as fuck so that suddenly being the reason he couldn’t be CEO was particularly desperate.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Avabelle

[aghst]

Logan said they’re not serious people.

One reason they’re not is because of this intense hatred and envy among them.

Things they say to each other are funny but some are pretty vicious.

What Shiv said to Tom on that terrace is what they’ve been saying to each other and about one another for all their lives.

The open contempt and vitriol poisoned the well long time ago.  They were probably incapable of working in concert or having common goals, a dysfunction that Logan created and cultivated.

It’s no wonder he created ATN to divide the country, since he knew very well how to divide or wedge people apart for his benefit.

He probably didn’t expect that they would band together and fight him instead of each other.  Until the end he was counting on picking at least one of them out to play against the others.  It was Romans turn when Logan died.

So sure, he was right in his judgement of them but he created and made them the way they are.  Obvious comparison is to Lear, as Lear’s daughters try to curry favor with him but Lear was far from blameless for how the daughters were.

[chaifan]

My favorite part of the episode was Connor doing the "Logan Roy sings I'm a little teapot" schtick on the video.  I wonder how much of that was scripted and how much was ad lib?  My biggest question of that scene was...  who was shooting the video??? 

At that moment, after seeing the camaraderie between Logan, Geri, Frank, Karl, etc., I had the most wonderful idea for a plot twist - the kids get the vote to squash the GoJo deal.  But immediately after, Frank makes a motion to remove Kendall as CEO in a vote of no confidence, and we get a montage of behind the scenes scheming of Geri, Frank and Karl, getting Stewy and Sandy/Sandi, etc. to go along with all of this.  There is unanimous (except for the kids) vote to remove Kendall, and Geri is instilled as CEO. 

Also, when Kendall and Roman were physically fighting, I envisioned one of them tackling the other, both going through the window plummeting to their deaths, and Shiv calmly walking back into the director's meeting, voting "no" and becoming CEO by default.

OK, so none of that happened.

If there was any big revelation in this episode it's that Greg sucks at math.  $200,000?  That's it?  He gave up a $250 million inheritance for a $200,000/year job?  The dot on the forehead scene was adorable, though. 

I'll admit, I didn't love this season.  I thought all the corporate plotting made for a boring storyline.  I just really didn't care who owned the company in end, who was CEO, etc.  The conversations between the kids, with no one ever uttering a complete, coherent sentence, was beginning to be nails on a chalkboard to me.  I was just tuning them all out during those scenes.  And two episodes devoted to an election that until then had been a rather background plot point was also boring me to tears.  ugh. 

 

[DawnDavenport]

4 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

I think that’s what sealed the deal for Shiv - Kendall was blatantly lying and she knew right then and there he would never not sell her out to get what he wanted only for himself.

Yes! That right there showed Kendall for who he really was a dangerous sociopathy bordering on psychopathic behavior. The way he tried to spin that was sad and horrifying all the same time. 

I also loved that the funeral breakdown and subsequent tuanting by Kenall and Matsson broke Roman. In the end he just wnated to wash his hands of the whole thing and be free and that's exactly what he got. He may have just ended up being the happiest sibling of the 4 of them.

[Blakeston]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would have liked another scene with Ewan explaining why he landed where he did. Last episode, or yesterday in show time, he was asking what kind of people would try to stop a brother from speaking at his brother's funeral. Why would he side with that kind of people? Does he hate/distrust Matsson that much? Does he really think the company would be better off in the control of the family rather than a more liberal person politically (I'm presuming) who has at least some concern for global affairs? I can at least hypothesize something as to Ewan where he decided to put family in front of strangers.

In the past, Ewan insisted on voting for Logan to remain in charge, even though he had clear contempt for Logan. He said something like, "My brother may be a monster, but he's still my brother."

So it makes sense that he chose his relatives, despite his issues with them.

 

8 hours ago, dshgr said:

My thoughts on the future of the Roy sibs:

Kendall relapses as he has nothing else to do and lots of money.

Roman becomes a "Jeffery Epstein".

The difference between Roman and Epstein is that Roman's island wouldn't have underaged girls. Just middle-aged, maternal women who chastise you for masturbating too often and send you to your room!

[SnarkAttack]

I guess the 'I'm so tired' line from Tom didn't mean anything in the end.

Kendall does the 'Yeah?'  thing a lot too.

[Jennifersdc]

21 hours ago, Broderbits said:

I wouldn't say Greg is winning. Yes, he still has a job; but he's never going to be more than a boot-licking toady making do with scraps. A corporate joke.

I still can’t believe Tom didn’t cut his throat. Maybe there is honor among thieves.

And I still cannot figure out what Cousin Greg did for a living. He seems to have even less skills than the other four idiots. Penchant for gossip? 

[CatWarmer]

I won't try to figure out why Shiv voted the way she did other than thinking she understood that Kendell had no moral center at all - not buried, not ignored, not manipulated.  Just not there at all.  He was nothing but lies and betrayal.  As bad as everyone else was, they possibly understood (even if subconsciously) that they were doing ill deeds.

Shiv and Tom's ongoing relationship could be interesting - and could get much better.  Didn't they mysteriously meet when she was in a "bad place" and he rescued her?  He did the same thing at the end of the finale - he went over to her in the hall and said "I got a car in 20 if you want to join."  Perhaps that mirrored their initial relationship. He knew how much pain she was in - in fact, by leaking to her that he would be the choice for CEO, he spared her the public shock of betrayal once the vote went through.  And knowingly gave her the opportunity to fight Matsson, even though that was not in his best interests.

She had asked him earlier if they could have a relationship - this was him saying maybe.  What will happen now that she no longer can look down on him from the power position of being a Roy?  Can they move on from the brutal air clearing?  Neither is really in a power position over each other.

Shiv will never be a corporate wife and she really is stronger as a guide than a leader.  If - big if - they can get past the pain, mistrust, and anger - what would happen if they team up to take out Matsson from the inside?  Perhaps with the help of Gerri, Karolina, and Ebba.  Tom had a great poker face during his conversation with Matsson but to me he seemed furious at the way Shiv was being discussed and dismissed.  He can betray her but not others!

And talking of corporate wives and air clearing, I loved the little muttered conversation between Caroline and Peter as the siblings drove away.  Caroline: Go away.  Peter: Bleeping waste of time.

[Dobian]

The show ultimately became How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying, starring Tom.  While the three siblings floundered while attempting to capture the mojo that made their dad great, Tom forged his own identity.  He became the consummate ass-kissing brown nose, word-salader extraordinaire, adept at managing entire divisions without understanding a single thing about how they operated.  It was a true master class performance as he rose to the top without having to be competent at anything.  There will be a large portrait of Tom hanging in the lobby of Waystar Royco decades after he is gone, where future employees will whisper their reverence beneath the watchful gaze of the master.  Bravo, Tom, bravo.

[poeticlicensed]

So it ends with Roman realizing he's finally free. Shiv is calculating her next move. Ken being broken is on brand for Ken. I was pleasantly surprised to see in the video that Connor and Logan seemed to have affection for each other because their relationship wasn't about business. And now he's got Logans house to make into his own. 

I refuse to feel bad for a bunch of snotty kids who don't understand what struggling means. They have billions. No tears here. 

[poeticlicensed]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

In the past, Ewan insisted on voting for Logan to remain in charge, even though he had clear contempt for Logan. He said something like, "My brother may be a monster, but he's still my brother."

So it makes sense that he chose his relatives, despite his issues with them.

 

The difference between Roman and Epstein is that Roman's island wouldn't have underaged girls. Just middle-aged, maternal women who chastise you for masturbating too often and send you to your room!

I think Roman has been so abused and repressed that he hasn't been able to work out his sexuality. Maybe with daddy dead he can now get the help he needs to figure out who he is

[poeticlicensed]

2 hours ago, DawnDavenport said:

think that’s what sealed the deal for Shiv - Kendall was blatantly lying and she knew right then and there he would never not sell her out to get what he wanted only for himself.

I also think she realizes  that he might  blow it and suck as CEO. If he blows it they all suffer financially. Sure they have billions, but rich people are notoriously protective of their money. Hence Caroline saving the ends of the bread loaves. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by poeticlicensed

[rhygirl720]

Matsson winning was not a big surprise as it was inevitable that the Roy siblings could not keep it together long enough to pull it off because at the end of the day, they are not serious people.

Matsson is a colossal prick and there was no way Shiv was going to be the CEO. Unfortunately, she sealed Tom's fate when she was talking to Matsson. The scene at the end?  Just wow. But I guess they can somehow figure it out? Tom as CEO? well it could be worse.

These people have enough money. They don't need to work. Go find a hobby.

 

[cardigirl]

I wonder if Roman maybe figured out that he had honored his father by allowing the deal to go through. Logan tried to tell the kids it was a good deal and that they shouldn't mess with it. Greedy little f*ckers told him they wanted MORE money for the deal. 

Roman really kind of hesitated all through the season to be aggressive with Logan.  He sent that "warm" text for Logan's birthday. He wanted to focus on Pierce. 

Anyway, my hope for that character is that he finds some sort of peace. 

Shiv can bite me, and I hope she matures a little when she becomes a mother. I fear that she may use her child as a weapon against Tom though.

I rather hope Kendall can find some peace, but that doesn't seem likely. 

Good finale. But I will miss these characters. 

 

[poeticlicensed]

One of the things that blew me away was the logistics of the 1%. Im currently trying to plan a trip and planning the logistics (plane train car hotel etc) is a big pain. Can you imagine cars and planes and boats, helicopters at your disposal and people to make all your plans for you? I read somewhere that one percenters don't own that many coats because they go right from their car service through the front door of wherever they are going 

[BlackberryJam]

No matter how great Keiran was, Roman still rushed a rocket launch and killed a bunch of people. He, like Kendall, can rot in hell. Shiv, for all her faults, didn't kill anyone. All the Roy children suck.

[BingeWatcher69]

I loved the finale. But how awesome would it have been if Greg never tipped off Kendall, the Gojo deal goes through, we watch Mattson tell Shiv shes out, and that Tom is CEO? I feel like it would have been amazing. Especially if they had some cut scenes where you dont know what was happening until the end, Mattson giving Shiv her walking papers while simultaneously cutting back and forth to the Mattson and Womsgans dinner.  could have been a lot of fun to watch. Either way, I was very pleased with the finale. Such a great series. 

[jeansheridan]

39 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Roman still rushed a rocket launch and killed a bunch of people

I don't think anyone died. I remember he was relieved because it was less of a hassle with no fatalities. I could be wrong but pretty sure it was an unmanned rocket.

[lucindabelle]

Tom had a really happy smile when Shiv was suggesting they reconcile. He didn’t say no he just asked to think about it which was more than fair.

he also is NOT an incompetent manager. We saw him working extremely hard at ATN on election night and after. There’s everything to suggest that he is in fact good at looking at assets and cutting costs and doing actual business . He is no how to succeed in business fake; he’s just not a corporate superstar and not a corporate visionary. 
 

I agree that he hated hearing Shiv dissed. And I think Shiv Was in her own way trying to get Mattson to keep him although saying she didn’t care. There is love there. 
 

I thought at first Shiv made her choice just for her marriage but in rewatch I think she sincerely changed her mind.

 

my biggest complaint about that is that she literally had anointed Oendall the day before. I get tired of that particular sort of plot.

Roman’s breakdown on seeing Gerri was sad.

wow that video. Complete with Frank singing Robert burns- Scottish composer/poet and we know Logan is Scottish. And I never saw Kerry smile and look so feminine. Everyone seemed so warm. Loved seeing Connor included. Makes it right that he has the apartment.

glad they just laughed at his doing the round 1 mourners.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by lucindabelle

[sistermagpie]

Just watched a YouTube video from a psychologist who specializes in Narcissistic personalities. She explains how perfectly Succession nails narcissistic personalities and interactions and the ending was exactly right in her view. I especially agreed with her predictions about the kids, that Kendall would be crushed by this and never recover. He would probably try to start businesses for the rest of his life and none of them would be good enough and he'll probably get sick and die surprisingly young. He might never talk to his siblings again, particularly after Roman's comments about his kids. Loved her pointing out how when pressed Kendall the vulnerable narcissist starts tantrumming like a child. She said Logan would have been able to play Shiv in that moment, but Kendall can't.

Roman would also suffer, but differently. This ending would be a win for him, but he'd still be terrible. He'd probably live a dissolute life with lots of sexual disfunction so not ever really be happy, but this ending would still be a win.

Shiv is the most like Logan and she'll remain a player, using Tom to stay near power and probably she'll start sleeping with Lucas too for the same reason. Oh, and she's about to become the world's second worst mother, right after Caroline. 

Tom will be exactly what Lucas wanted, a pain sponge suck up, and Greg will also hang on because they like him around (and Tom needs him close). 

It did make sense to me that Shiv is in some ways the last Roy standing in terms of still looking to get power. But none of them is Logan (or Lucas) who actually built a company.

One thing I didn't agree with her on is she saw Willa as really despising Connor and that seems way too strong to me. 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, DobbsFox said:

I found it satisfying when Tom slapped Greg in the bathroom and Greg slapped him back instead of cowering in fear. It doesn't change their basic dynamic, but it was nice to see Tom get a taste.

I thought the episode had lots of callbacks to earlier points in the series and this was one- instead of cowering as Tom pelts him with water bottles, Greg hits back. 

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

And that's been the problem with the show, for me. It always seemed to be going in circles. I get that the acting is stellar and the dialogue is entertaining but the story-telling itself always felt stagnant to me because the show wasn't brave enough to move on from its own memes. Like they simply had to find a way to insert Brian Cox into the episode even after he's dead. They just can't seem to get enough of him. Ha ha, he's an asshole and tells everyone to fuck off, ha ha ha isn't that hilarious? Audiences loved that so much it took the show four seasons to move in any direction and then it had to end because they didn't have Logan anymore I guess.

So many plot points left dangling, too, from the election to the Pierce deal to Tom and Shiv's relationship. Nothing really felt wrapped up. I guess the show wanted it that way, but it just didn't really work for me.

So much this. Four seasons and for all intents and purposes, the sibs are all where they started- realistic but frustrating to see no growth.

9 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I think she just didn’t want Kendall to win. No major moral reasons, she just didn’t want him winning over her. 
 

Agreed. She is so arrogant she can’t let Kendall win over her anymore than she could go through the leadership program Logan wanted her to- she can’t fathom a world where she is not seen as the most perfect, smartest of them all. I think that’s why she looked so empty at the end- instead of looking down at Tom the way she has all series, he has now bested her.

[nb360]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Shiv, for all her faults, didn't kill anyone.

No but she did convince a female whistleblower connected to the cruise line to not testify. Logan asked both Rhea and Shiv  to speak to the woman -- only because they were women. Rhea, however, refused to be used.

[RedBaron]

On 5/28/2023 at 5:43 PM, Racj82 said:

Not important at all but Shiv constantly ending statements with Yeah? drives me up a wall. They went overboard with all the kids doing it this episode.

But, it could just be me. Yeah?

Someone (I think an election expert?) mentioned this in the podcast following the election night episode.  (Shiv does it most but you also hear Kendall do it and it does sound off.)  He said it was because the writer Jesse Armstrong is British and it's something they say a lot (actually Europeans speaking english often say "yeah" at the end of sentences.)  He mentioned that after reading the script, he wanted to tell Armstrong that Americans would say "okay?" or "right?" instead.  

Edited May 30, 2023 by RedBaron

[Avabelle]

8 hours ago, DawnDavenport said:

I think that’s what sealed the deal for Shiv - Kendall was blatantly lying and she knew right then and there he would never not sell her out to get what he wanted only for himself.

I dont think Shiv had any qualms about where Kendall stood morally. It his denial has been to suit her she wouldn’t have batted an eyelid. The only reason it became an issue was because she was using it to support her argument of why he couldn’t be CEO.

Shivs ego has always been her downfall.  The only time we ever saw her put it aside was in the scene on the phone with Tom when she asks him to give their marriage another chance. She was majorly betrayed by both Mattson and Tom yet she still stuck with them because by fucking Ken over at the last minute it at least looked like she’d “won”. 

6 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

He knew how much pain she was in - in fact, by leaking to her that he would be the choice for CEO, he spared her the public shock of betrayal once the vote went through

He only told her because Greg had ratted out to Kendall that she was being replaced and because she had him sussed the minute he pathetically told her she should still vote yes to the deal. He didn’t telL her out of love or sacrifice. He would have said nothing had she not found out via Greg. As soon as she left he was into Mattson. He’s right that Shiv would do the same to him but there was no honour from Tom when it came to Shiv.

[RedBaron]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't think anyone died. I remember he was relieved because it was less of a hassle with no fatalities. I could be wrong but pretty sure it was an unmanned rocket.

Yes, no one died.  I believe the only "casualty" was that someone lost a thumb.  

 

[Macbeth1966]

When the siblings learned that it was Tom - 

Roman quipped - "Man. Fucked by the dry cleaner. Wow."

When Kendall was trying to get out of his confession of killing the waiter - by saying he made it up so the siblings could bond.'

Roman: "What?"  Shiv: "the fuck." 😄

Edited May 30, 2023 by Macbeth1966

[cmfran]

I was kind of hoping for a Wire-style flash forward montage at the very end. Great finale for the series, though.

[SnapHappy]

Going on character and previous behavior, Shiv is basically giving birth to a bargaining chip.  

Poor kid is going to be nothing but a pawn.  

I would have liked to know what really happened to Con's mother.  There were plenty of opportunities to get that story in somewhere.  

Edited May 30, 2023 by SnapHappy

[absnow54]

7 hours ago, nb360 said:

No but she did convince a female whistleblower connected to the cruise line to not testify. Logan asked both Rhea and Shiv  to speak to the woman -- only because they were women. Rhea, however, refused to be used.

The more I think about Shiv's sudden turn on Kendall, the more I think of the moment right before the boardroom when Karolina pulls her aside and asks her to get rid of Hugo so they can make a real change with the company. Shiv was making a series of emotional decisions. Mattson was going to screw her over, Tom was going to be named CEO, and I think that she was blinded by Kendall's luster, because although Kendall is a mess, he can channel Logan's magnetism when he needs to. I feel like Karolina's comments was Shiv's "We're all bullshit" moment, because Shiv has been given the opportunity to make a change, and she folded to Logan's way of things. Shiv herself can't fit a whole woman in her head, because she's a product of the world her father created. Shiv is bullshit, Roman already realized he was bullshit at the funeral, now Kendall had to be called out too. He's an unpredictable addict who has an involuntary manslaughter charge lingering behind him like a ghost. They couldn't make him CEO.

[Stella Rose]

19 hours ago, millennium said:

Now we'll probably have to wait another three or four minutes before Alexander Skaarsgaard turns up in another series playing Alexander Skaarsgaard.

"Sookie... er Shiv, yeah... is MINE."

[vibeology]

14 hours ago, Jennifersdc said:

I still can’t believe Tom didn’t cut his throat. Maybe there is honor among thieves.

And I still cannot figure out what Cousin Greg did for a living. He seems to have even less skills than the other four idiots. Penchant for gossip? 

Tom needs Greg to be his pain sponge. Greg was an executive assistant but he's probably end up as a senior advisor with a huge raise. Tom will take care of him because Greg can actually be his outlet for emotions. It's telling that when Logan died, Tom only cried when he was on the phone with Greg. And I don't think that was just about Tom worrying about his own future. Crouching next to someone dying while CPR is happening is traumatic and he held it together for the kids but he could be open with Greg. He needs Greg as his release valve and their weird friendship works.

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't think anyone died. I remember he was relieved because it was less of a hassle with no fatalities. I could be wrong but pretty sure it was an unmanned rocket.

I couple of thumbs. Not great but could have been way worse and Roman got very lucky.

[Irlandesa]

21 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Oh, I see Willa having a kid maybe. It would keep Connor occupied (I think he would be a great, weird dad).

Another thing a kid provides Willa is a decent support check should she decide she can't stay with Connor. 

 

16 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Having rewatched the episode I think it was pure sibling jealousy. She hated how cocky he was and just wanted to hurt him. It was cruel. While some of the theories here of why she might have done it are really well thought and layered I don’t think she’s that deep. It’s clear she hates Tom as she’s now been deeply hurt by him. She’s lost just as much as Kendall has and it’s all her own doing because she just couldn’t let him have the win. She could have taken back the power with Tom by voting no to the deal.
 

I think the only thing Kendall offered Shiv for her vote is that it'd keep the company in the family. He's a terrible leader.  He demonstrated delusion.  He never offered her corporate consideration. 

If she were cruel, I don't think she would have walked out of the vote.  I think she would have delivered the "no" vote with the smugness she has been known to show.  She loves her brothers but like both of them, she chose to center herself.  Part of that "herself" is jealousy.  And part of it is a legit belief she'd be better off with Tom as CEO than Kendall.

11 hours ago, BingeWatcher69 said:

I loved the finale. But how awesome would it have been if Greg never tipped off Kendall, the Gojo deal goes through, we watch Mattson tell Shiv shes out, and that Tom is CEO? I feel like it would have been amazing.

It would have been a surprise but I think the psychology of the siblings having the vote to defeat the buyout but Shiv ultimately voting no is more interesting.

[BlackberryJam]

I think both Shiv and Kendall were acting in their own self-interest. Kendall wanted to be CEO and run the company because then he'll feel validated because "he's the oldest boy!" He was never, ever going to value Shiv and give her any say in the company. Even when he was CE-Bros with Roman, he was angling with Hugo to make decisions without Roman.

Roman was mentally and emotionally checked out and just going along with his siblings.

Shiv was stuck between a brother who would completely cut her out and a husband whom she could no longer control. At least with okaying the buyout, she gets a giant pile of cash and a possible foot in the door with Tom. 

[laurakaye]

On 5/29/2023 at 12:29 AM, jeansheridan said:

But Keiran got a drink I think was Gerri's preferred cocktail and got to look cool one last time.

Ah, yes - I knew there must have been significance to that martini.  It was Geri's drink of choice.  That was a great touch.

23 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

But Connor was at that dinner too, doing a really funny imitation of his dad.  It showed us that there was a relationship there we didn't know about, and that the other three kids didn't have.

I love that there was a relationship between Connor and Logan that we didn't know about.  Connor's backstory is mysterious but I think there are enough clues to put it together, mostly.  What I found more interesting is the non-reactions from the kids watching the video (other than Roman crying, but that makes sense). None of them seemed particularly surprised to see their dad relaxed and enjoying himself.  That was a completely different Logan than we've ever seen on the show.  They must have known that he had that side to him, and that Connor had a different relationship with their dad.  But the fact that we never really saw that until now is another piece of their puzzle.

 

23 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

Except Roman. I think the smile is that he is aware, and the frown is how they got there and he still has a lot of grieving to do.

That was so good.  Freedom, followed immediately by the pain of grief.  So - maybe not so free, yet.

One last thing that I didn't see mentioned was Shiv and Roman in the water, telling Kendall to "smile, bitch."  Jeremy Strong smiled so hard, his entire face got involved - his eyes, forehead, etc.  It was actually a bit jarring, as I don't think we've seen a true Kendall smile over the entirety of this show.

Succession will be missed!  This is in my top 3 favorite shows, ever.  Alas, endings.  Alas.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by laurakaye

[Jordan Baker]

36 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

That was so good.  Freedom, followed immediately by the pain of grief.  So - maybe not so free, yet.

Succession will be missed!  This is in my top 3 favorite shows, ever.  Alas, endings.  Alas.

I'll admit that I misinterpreted Roman's smile. My immediate thought was that he and Shiv had conspired to wreck Kendall's dream, and his smile was a "We did it!" But, of course, that makes no sense given all that transpired in the board room and during the big fight before Shiv cast her Yes vote. 

I would not be surprised if Succession swept the Emmys this year. Everyone was great. The only bad thing is that Kieran Culkin will be competing against Jeremy Strong. A tie, maybe?

Succession is also among my favorite shows of all time. But I watched two of those favorites (Breaking Bad and The Wire) after they'd originally aired, and the endings didn't feel quite so sad to me.  When you've been watching a show in real time and that show finally comes to an end, it seems like more of a loss. I remember how sad I was when Mad Men ended (even though it was time). Same with Succession. Sunday nights just won't be the same.

[Lassus]

On 5/29/2023 at 12:09 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Roman has no discernible skills

I disagree with this, he seems to have a good read on people, IMO.  (When he gets out of his own way, which is of course almost never.)

 

[Lassus]

On 5/29/2023 at 12:29 AM, jeansheridan said:

Honestly it was a good day to be Karl and Frank and Stewie.

I'm a little bit confused about this, didn't he make an enemy of the Matsson party/GoJo with his vote?

On 5/29/2023 at 1:34 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Even though she could have tried to be CEO Shiv it seems like she'd prefer to just be homemaker Shiv.

This to me is a very weird take.

[Absurda]

I really don't see Shiv settling down to be her mother or a "corporate wife".  She's ambitious and fabulously wealthy, she can do whatever the hell she wants.  I can see her taking a break to figure out what that is, but she's not out for the count.  Maybe she'll go back into politics, I think that's where her heart really is.  Or do something else.  Who knows?  But she'll have power and influence in her own right, just not in the family company.

In Barbados when they were talking about sharks then Ken swims out to the raft I couldn't help but think:  "Ken gets eaten by shark, that would be an interesting plot twist."  I kinda hoped for it.

I'm satisfied with how things worked out.  Tom may be a bootlicker, but as Shiv noted, he's a popular manager.  He's also one of the ones (plus old guard) keeping things going at the company after Logan's death and while the kids keep trying to out maneuver each other.

I thought Roman trying to have Gerri removed from the building and refusing to see her was a total coward move.

[JenE4]

Whelp, King Lear is a tragedy, so it should have come as no surprise that there wasn’t a happy ending to be found here. I think Kendall and Shiv’s eulogies really said it all—how Logan was completely bereft of any emotion, and it was his heartlessness that made him a success in business. His three children all tried so hard to mimic his tenacity, but in the end it was their emotions that was their downfall. 

Roman was so confident during his practice eulogy, but became entirely undone seeing his father’s coffin. He tried to get his mojo back by confronting the protesters, and they just trampled him. He would never have that larger than life quality that would leave others trembling in awe, like his father had. The stitches on his forehead was a physical manifestation of his emotional wounds. When he questions that maybe it’s not that bad or people won’t notice, Kendall puts the screws on him—a brotherly embrace turning to a threat and a reopening of the wounds. Despite the bravado of the inappropriate “jokes,” you are a fragile little boy inside. You are nothing like your stone-cold father.

Kendall was similar. He has always been better about thinking a few steps ahead on a plan and can come in at the clutch with some persuasive words, even when they’re total bullshit. But he’s always walked this fine line of his depression and completely unraveling with any pushback, like his wife leaving town with the kids or his assistant quitting. He needs sycophants to hype himself up because he doesn’t have the confidence, which is why Shiv and Roman really had to go overboard with that “meal fit for a king” to prove to him that they were really backing him. But while he thought Roman wasn’t going to come back from crying at his father’s funeral, there was REALLY no coming back from verbally and physically assaulting his siblings in a glass fishbowl in direct view of the entire board and executive staff! I am really surprised that Kendall just looked at the water and didn’t try to drown himself. Incidentally I just read and article in which Jeremy Strong actually—and unscripted— did bolt towards the water because he also thought that’s what Kendall would have done, and the actor playing the bodyguard actually had to physically restrain him. 

I think it’s really interesting that Sarah Snook actually was pregnant, because I think it really defined Shiv’s direction. She was now over 20 weeks pregnant and hadn’t even told anyone! She wasn’t going to let a baby derail her career—pop it out and get back to work. And then she was forced to confront how how her parents raised her (or lack thereof) impacted her and her brothers with the funeral and visit with mom. She was fully onboard to become an “absentee mom” herself—but either way, she has no path to CEO. She’s edged out of the boys’ club once again. So what’s the lesser of two evils: No job and no husband, or no job and a loveless marriage of convenience so you don’t have to raise your kid alone? 

once Kendall put the article out there calling Mattison Shiv’s puppet instead of the other way around—and it was obvious she WAS telling him what to do to get the CEO job—you knew he would never give it to her. Shiv handed Tom to him on a silver platter saying he would suck the biggest dick in the room. THIS is the puppet Lucas wanted. Tom taught Greg everything he knows about being a yes man because he’s an even bigger yes man. In the end, Tom doesn’t “win” here, either. He’s to be the “pain sponge” while Lucas wields all the real power behind the scenes. Likewise, Greg will continue to be Tom’s “pain sponge”—but for a lot less money. 

I think Logan is laughing in his $5M mausoleum. None of them were “good enough” to run his company. Maybe from what we learned of his childhood he tried to “toughen up” his kids to end up just like him so they would “have what it takes” to lead. But they were all damaged in their own ways. And sadly after that sweet moment in mom’s kitchen, I think their relationship is now thoroughly beyond repair.

Oh, and, uh Connor is also someone who exists. Though even Kendall claims to be “the eldest son!!!” so they barely remember he exists.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I'm a little bit confused about this, didn't he make an enemy of the Matsson party/GoJo with his vote?

This to me is a very weird take.

Though Stewie presumably doesn't get to be chair of the new board, he does get to have a boatload of cash. 

It seems to me that Shiv has lost some of the fire and interest in trying to be a CEO or other corporate bigwig through the end of the episode. Maybe this is sour grapes. She lost her best chance to be CEO of Waystar a couple times over due to in large part sexism from her father and now Matsson. The possible deal with Pierce seems to me to be unlikely to happen now, but who knows? If it does happen, is she going to be able to be in charge of Pierce or work effectively with her brothers? I don't think so.

Her softening toward Tom and seeking a real relationship with him strikes me as a sign that she is starting to open up to her role as a mom more. And the fact that it's Tom who is going to be the Waystar CEO also seems to me to have dampened her corporate ambitions as well. 

There is certainly the possibility of her "Lady MacBething" things, as she alluded to. But it seems to me that she was accepting the notion of her doing what Tom wants, which is more her in the role of traditional homemaker.

I also think that her visit with her own mother probably reinforced the notion of walking away and to some extent modeling and to some extent rejecting Caroline's behavior.

Caroline in this episode suggested something that neither Shiv nor the others seemingly ever considered: just walk away. They have no real need to play these stupid games when they are already ultra-rich and they can spend their lives doing what they want, even if that life is having a leaky house with a mostly empty fridge in the Caribbean and entertaining shady friends of friends and their investment opportunities. On some level, I think Shiv might have taken that to heart after the drama and trauma of losing Logan, getting backstabbed by Mattson, her brothers and even Tom. 

Does Shiv have any friends, allies, partners or such that she can turn to either personally or professionally and trust? Right now, I'm thinking no. 

Her main motives seemingly have been a) prove herself to/rebel against Logan b) prove herself to her brothers c) have Tom as a whipping boy/trophy husband.

She has been basically defeated in all these with no real shot at recovery. Logan's dead and he died not particularly impressed with her (at least on the surface. Maybe he was for their being willing to overpay that he counted that as a win). Ain't never going to impress him now. Kendall and Roman now know that she was Matsson's puppet rather than the other way around, and at least Kendall will likely never forgive her or be willing to work with her. Tom has ascended to heights that she was never able to achieve and will never be able to achieve. 

So what is in it for her to try to climb the corporate ladder at Waystar (assuming Matsson and Tom are willing to create a place for her, which they probably are not), Pierce or elsewhere? Especially when she is about to go on maternity leave anyway? 

I also think that given that Caroline is a horrible mom, she fears on some level being as horrible a mom or worse, and will likely take steps now to avoid replicating Caroline's faults of being super-selfish, absent, nasty and more. One way she could do that is by throwing herself into motherhood. 

People's mileage may vary, but I just don't see Shiv wanting to get into corporate brawls in the near future.

[Lassus]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Her softening toward Tom and seeking a real relationship with him strikes me as a sign that she is starting to open up to her role as a mom more.

As always, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and intelligence in these threads.

That being said, I just cannot agree this is an if A --> then B logic (or emotional) path.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Lassus

[Penman61]

I've now read a couple posts speculating that Shiv is becoming more "maternal," or some version of "well, she now realizes she's a mom, so..." 

I personally didn't see any shift in her because of her pregnancy. When she thought it would be useful (or wounding; if you're a Roy, they're the same) to bring the pregnancy up to Tom, she did. 

But as far as her factoring being a parent into her business decisions...if the show did that, it was so subtle that I missed it. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

53 minutes ago, Lassus said:

As always, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and intelligence in these threads.

That being said, I just cannot agree this is an if A --> then B logic (or emotional) path.

Thanks, and to be clear, I freely acknowledge that Shiv (nor anyone in fiction or in the real world) does not necessarily or probably operates on such a logical path when it comes to their emotions. In particular, Shiv, who is an emotional mess and often has acted against what seems like her rational self-interest (at least to me from my perspective as an outsider) with her father, brothers and Tom. She very well could spend her post-Succession life scheming as to how to grab power at Waystar Royce through Tom or some other means, what next corporate route to take, or similar.

33 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I've now read a couple posts speculating that Shiv is becoming more "maternal," or some version of "well, she now realizes she's a mom, so..." 

I personally didn't see any shift in her because of her pregnancy. When she thought it would be useful (or wounding; if you're a Roy, they're the same) to bring the pregnancy up to Tom, she did. 

But as far as her factoring being a parent into her business decisions...if the show did that, it was so subtle that I missed it. 

I would say/speculate her efforts to reconcile and reconnect with Tom seem to have been fueled by her twisted/toxic love for him in part and her realization of her future motherhood requires a second parent to avoid the sort of childhood she had. Shiv envisioned a future where she was going to be CEO of Waystar and Tom would likely be Mr. Mom. 

With her plans immediately thwarted, I envision Shiv revving down. Maybe she'll start getting active in political circles again, especially if Mencken wins. Maybe she will be running Pierce if that sale goes through. Maybe she'll be puppeteering Tom at Waystar (or trying). Maybe she has some new route that she wants to try. Or maybe she will have given up on all that and throw her energies into motherhood, or have little wherewithal to deal with anything else. I'd imagine that compounding the trauma of the abusive relationship with Logan and the trauma of losing him and the trauma of losing her corporate/personal battles and the demands of new motherhood and the possibility of post-partum depression would be quite a lot to cope with Shiv. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[laurakaye]

The scene in the glass-walled conference room was one of the (many) times during this show's run that I forgot to breathe.

Prior to that, Roman seemed to be obsessed with his injuries and not wanting to be seen - especially when he notices Geri.  During the battle between the siblings, Kendall takes Roman's face in his hands as if he's trying to re-open every single scrape and cut on Roman's face.  I feel like there's a lot going on here but it's going to take some re-watching to sort it out...Roman threw himself into that group of protestors asking to be hurt.  He seemed nonchalant about it at his mother's house but once he saw Geri at the meeting, he freaked out.  Because his one and only former source of comfort had abandoned him?  And then he said unspeakable things to Kendall about his kids - was he asking to be hurt all over again because at that point, nothing mattered?  Part of my love for this show is watching the siblings interact and forming their actions and backstories based on what we've been given.  

And on a lighter note, Connor's multi-chapter explanation of how the sticker system worked at Logan's apartment was very funny to me - typical oldest kid coming at his younger siblings with complicated rules, only to have Kendall put a sticker on an item with Roman following suit because to them it was just a game.  I also loved Shiv asking where Logan's medals were and Connor admitting that there was a prior walk-through of Logan's apartment, where Connor was the only participant.  Good on Connor, he deserved that for being the Roy kid forced to handle Logan's funeral arrangements solo.

(come back to my tv soon, Alan Ruck).

Edited May 30, 2023 by laurakaye

[Blakeston]

I don't think that Shiv's decision was calculated at all. I think it came from pure emotion. She just couldn't stomach her brother getting the top spot over her.

It's the same theme we saw with the presidential election - despite all of the reasons why Kendall shouldn't tip the election to a Hitler-admirer, in the end he did it because he was mad at Shiv, and his ego was wounded by her manipulations. At the end of the day, the Roy childrens' decisions are based on emotions rather than logic.

You can see Shiv waver when Kendall sits in Logan's chair, and when he says "Let's do this for Dad." Seeing Kendall position himself as their father's successor was too much for her.

Also, it sounds like the makers of the show barely took Sarah Snook's pregnancy into account when devising the season - so I don't think motherhood was a driving factor here.

[Avabelle]

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think that Shiv's decision was calculated at all. I think it came from pure emotion. She just couldn't stomach her brother getting the top spot over her.

Exactly this. There’s a thousand arguments she can use to justify her choice and they’d all be valid but really she just couldn’t stomach the idea of him winning.

[buttersister]

Quote

He’s right that Shiv would do the same to him but there was no honour from Tom when it came to Shiv.

When you hear your wife wants an open marriage on your honeymoon, when your f-i-l is your lifeline (and now dead), when you will literally do anything to stay valid and you've swallowed enough shit to prove it, maybe Tom deserves a little moment of triumph for himself.

Lost in the mire of Roman calling Ken's kids randos was Shiv hearing (and perhaps being reminded) that she's carrying the blood line. Gotta have an impact, imo.

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think Shiv has any maternal feelings other than, "Wow, my parents sucked. I don't want my kid to suffer the same kind of suckage, but I really don't want to actually parent this thing* either. Tom's childhood didn't suck the same way mine did. Therefore, it will be better if Tom and I stay together because then he can do the majority of the parenting and we won't be able to use our kids as weapons the way Mom and Dad did. But yeah, we gotta find a great nanny ASAP and I'm getting ALL the drugs during labor."

*Thing is used deliberately. There is a reason we didn't see Shiv cupping her belly and picking out names.

[aghst]

I’ve heard from several sources including Jeremy Strong that Armstrong doesn’t think people change.

So there was never going to be redemption arcs for any of these characters.

Nor would any of the Roys grow from these experiences in the future.

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, buttersister said:

Lost in the mire of Roman calling Ken's kids randos was Shiv hearing (and perhaps being reminded) that she's carrying the blood line. Gotta have an impact, imo.

I found myself wondering what Logan's reaction would have been to finding out that he would finally get a genetic grandchild out of Shiv (and quite possibly his only one, ever)...and not only Shiv, but from Tom, who had proven loyal to him. If he had lived another season, I think his overtures to Roman would have been pushed aside and he would have made the effort to bring Shiv back into the fold instead.

It's worth noting that the goal in this show isn't about money. It's about power. The Roy kids can't conceive of not having money. Money is to them what oxygen is to the rest of us - it's always there, you take it for granted. 

The Roys end the show with a ton of money...but absolutely no power whatsoever. They lost.

Logan understood this, and it's why he wanted to keep ATN. As long as he had the cable news network, he could control the dialogue and the political discourse.

I'm still mystified by Mattson's decisions on the night before the meeting. He could have easily lost the vote, had Shiv stuck with her brothers. I don't believe he's as smart of a multi-dimensional chess player as we were led to believe.

5 hours ago, Stella Rose said:

"Sookie... er Shiv, yeah... is MINE."

Hahaha! But after reading this thread, I think the correct order is: "Sookie... er Shiv.. is MINE. Yeah?"