S04.E10: With Open Eyes

[Chicago Redshirt]

I think sometimes that it irks me more when a show as brilliant as Succession has the contrivances it does.

There is no reason I can see that the cartoonist would have depicted Shiv pulling Matsson's strings. If anything, a cartoon that would have made sense was Matsson puppeteering Shiv, or all three of them, because as far as it could possibly appear to anyone on the outside, he was in complete control of the vote and was set to buy Waystar. Now, I could buy that Roman or Kendall planted the thought in the magazine (it seemed to be a Waystar property based on Shiv's offering to do something to the cartoonist) to unnerve Matsson but a. neither is smart enough to have come up with the move b. we weren't given any evidence of this. The only reason it's there is to set up the falling out between Matsson and Shiv.

Matsson is supposed to be a corporate genius. But it makes little sense for him to be interviewing replacement CEOs until he locks down the purchase. Because the danger exists, however small, that it will get back to Shiv and they will undo the deal Yes, he has spent enough time with Tom to be able to trust that Tom is spineless enough to keep his mouth shut and not tell his wife about Matsson's plans. (And an aside: Tom is told "It's not going to be Shiv because I plan to fuck your wife and I already have one sexual harassment sitch I'm dealing with." And he doesn't bat an eye. He is a literal cuck and is fine with being one in the future. I know feelings are complicated and everything, but it is hard for me to see someone so craven that he would not say "No job is worth working for this smug asshole who is making me audition by previewing how he's going to humiliate me by fucking my wife.")

It's somewhat contrived that Matsson and Oskar would talk, even in Swedish, about their next moves with Shiv in public, and that Greg's app would be good enough to translate what they are saying in a bar with a lot of background noise. But letting that slide, it's dumb as hell for Matsson to refuse to take Shiv's calls and to not attempt to woo her back. He could and should have tried to win her over with any line of B.S. or even variants of what he told Tom: being CEO here is not a job you want because a) it is going to involve taking the heat for a lot of the decisions I'm going to make b) I don't want a partner here, I want a yes-person c) it would be weird if you worked for me and we were going to try to go to pound-town, like I thin we both want to. Not to mention: d) I never said it was going to be you as the American CEO, and e) no offense, but you literally have nowhere near the experience needed to run a behemoth of a corporation like Waystar solo. As capable as you might be at figuring out politics and tactics, you still are 1.5 metres of nepotism. If your last name was not "Roy," you wouldn't even be in the conversation.

Maybe it would have been boring TV, but seeing how the sibs tried and got the non-Stewey votes is something that I wanted to see. In fact, I would have liked another scene with Ewan explaining why he landed where he did. Last episode, or yesterday in show time, he was asking what kind of people would try to stop a brother from speaking at his brother's funeral. Why would he side with that kind of people? Does he hate/distrust Matsson that much? Does he really think the company would be better off in the control of the family rather than a more liberal person politically (I'm presuming) who has at least some concern for global affairs? I can at least hypothesize something as to Ewan where he decided to put family in front of strangers. But whoever the other two members of the board are: what were they thinking? Matsson was paying incredibly high, and rejecting the offer would have Kendall in charge. How could anyone think the non-serious, addict who only got the job because of his last name and who has done little to nothing in his career but mouth buzzwords and pump himself up is going to do better for the company than Matsson would? But we had to get to the point where we were at a 6-6 tie and Shiv is the deciding vote. So none of this really matters to the writers.

[BC4ME]

7 hours ago, Taget said:

Tom almost played himself with Greg.  If he had just told Greg that as long as he is at the company he would be taken care of Greg would not have been so scared of Mattson.  Tom assumed Greg was too stupid to try to watch his own back.  And perhaps he had reason under normal circumstances to think that but given Greg had access to both sides that was risky.

This was maybe stupid on Tom's part especially since Greg had certainly played both sides on multiple occasions. Or maybe Tom knew it would happen based on his knowledge that Greg was a weasel like he was.

I can't get over how telling it was when Shiv got in the car with Tom and he put out his hand and she just laid her hand over his in such a meaningful gesture of the half relationship that they would have. I wish that had been the last scene, not Kendal, because Tom won (for now). 

Again, Tom flipped the dynamic not only in power but in the actual feelings part of the relationship. He had wanted the marriage to work with some hints at actual love for Shiv. Then at the end Shiv seemed more vulnerable to actual feelings for Tom of at least for wanting to try again. Her keeping the baby might have made her want to stay with Tom on the emotional level.

In the end, Shiv became one of the typical Roy women, and the other two remained the failures that they were. In that sense (plus the fact this was her deal, minus her actually being in charge) Shiv won more than the brothers.    

[vibeology]

9 hours ago, nb360 said:

Also... why is Greg getting $200,000 for doing nothing (except getting coffee, sushi and lemon LeCroix)?

He doesn't even do that anymore.

9 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Agreed. Tom is just plausible enough. But I see him let go in a few years. Corporate reshuffling.

That's probably just fine for Tom. The truth is once you reach that level, the money and the future opportunities are so good that you don't even need to stay CEO for all that long to prosper. Tom is a rich, white man who has ascended to the absolute heights of power. Now, like Shiv, he'll always be okay.

Edited May 29, 2023 by vibeology

[pasdetrois]

Earlier in the season I predicted that Tom would win the top spot. I figured the siblings would cancel each other out with their dysfunction.

A few days ago The Washington Post had a fun article speculating why each key character could win it (including Gerri). The author wrote that unlike the siblings and long-time staff, Tom was a nobody Midwesterner who arrived fairly recently on the Waystar scene and really leaned in to the nastiness and chaos. The family and long-time staff were accustomed and even brainwashed to Logan's ways - essentially trapped - but Tom had choices and decided to go all in.

Was the dark sticky dot that he pasted to Greg's forehead left over from the pickings at Logan's mansion? If yes, a brilliant visual. Greg is like a serf who comes with the property.

Shiv looked utterly defeated and hopeless as she rode away with Tom. He's capable of lording his power over her and the child. Matthew Macfadyen conveyed that without saying a word.

Edited May 29, 2023 by pasdetrois

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Why did Tom trust and rely upon Lukas following through about choosing Tom after Lukas had already backed out of choosing Shiv, without even without telling her? How could Tom know that Lukas wasn't also auditioning others for the role? Yes, Tom was the obsequious supplicant that Lukas wanted, and Shiv was too opinionated, entitled and non-deferential to smile silently in the background as Lukas pulled all the strings. But Lukas' track record of being erratic and failing to keep his promises should have been more troubling to Tom than it seemed to be.

It's human nature for a drowning person to accept any lifeline without question, and for people to not analyze things logically (such as "if he cheated on his wife with me, what is to stop him from cheating on me when we're married with someone else?")

But in the specific case of Tom, 

1. They have been doing a number of hangs so it is possible that Tom actually has a good read on Lukas, or at least feels he does

2. Taking Matsson directly at his word, Tom is exactly what Matsson is looking for: someone plausible to take over with experience, someone American so that regulators won't be spooked, someone signaling some level of continuity, someone who has little of the way of independent ambitions or goals, someone who will be the "pain sponge" as he guts Waystar or runs it in ways that will make people uncomfortable. Can anyone else serve all those needs as well as Tom? 

I don't know if Lukas has had a track record of failing to keep his promises. He never promised Shiv the CEO spot. She pitched herself as CEO and he didn't shoot it down and let her assume it would be her. The closest thing that I can think of that we've been shown that he broke a promise was that he was going to let Waystar buy GoJo and then he decided that it was GoJo that should buy Waystar. But I wouldn't even count that.

[DobbsFox]

That final shot of Tom and Siobhan "holding hands" in the back of the limousine - heartbreaking in a way neither of them deserve.

[Enigma X]

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

THIS. This is a British thing, I swear to god. Its always driven me nuts watching the show, because Americans (not me and none that I know!) don't talk like this. We don't. 

I brought up how they (the whole cast) talked in that choppy way before and how it drove me crazy. My point was and is that you can find maybe one or two people in a group who speak that way but everyone talking like that. No. It seemed the older adults didn’t speak that way (Logan, Caroline, Frank, etc.). Mattson even talked that way. It is nothing but ad lib.

[catherinejane]

I got up early (UK time) to watch this.

I was most happy Tom still wanted Greg in his gang. of course Greg will be very rich one day won't he? He's Ewans Grandson? so he will probably get some money when he dies.

else, i felt Tom did love Shiv but realised her speach to him on the plane was just settling/not love. sad.

I was actually set for a "happy ending" after the kids all having fun at their mums house. and it would have been fine. Them accepting they bicker but underneath, all siblings.

I wonder if Shiv's ending would have been the same without the actresses pregnancy? it was sort of "happy" for her - she got the husband, having a kid together, chance for a new adventure, but we got no hint of that for the other 2. downbeat for them.

And seeing the birthday party video - you realise its all about thr 3 of them and their dad, but actually you have eldest son Conner who did seem to have a nice good relationship with his dad.

 

 

[Alexander Pope]

9 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Because he's 2 metres of nepotism. 

Husband. Although they were in the process of getting a divorce, as far as we have been shown, it was never finalized. As recently as two days ago in show time, they hosted a function together at their apartment.

And let's not forget father of her child. 

Let's not forget that early on in this episode, Shiv called Tom and asked if they could get back together having seen the worst in each other, and to me she seemed sincere. He said he didn't know and gained the upper hand there too.

ETA:  Others have commented on this, posted before reading the whole thread.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Alexander Pope

[dshgr]

My thoughts on the future of the Roy sibs:

Kendall relapses as he has nothing else to do and lots of money.

Roman becomes a "Jeffery Epstein".

Shiv becomes her mother.

BTW, Greg is being kept around by Tom because of his role in the document destruction in the cruise scandal. 

[DobbsFox]

I found it satisfying when Tom slapped Greg in the bathroom and Greg slapped him back instead of cowering in fear. It doesn't change their basic dynamic, but it was nice to see Tom get a taste.

[DrSpaceman73]

In the end none of them were fit to take over. And their dad knew that which is part of the reason they never got the job. So not surprised the company changed hands when their dad died

Also what is made clear is Mattson is no better than Logan really. Arrogant. Manipulative. No regard for others. Just wants power. Shady. Will step on or over anyone to get what he wants. I think we like to believe the newer industrial titans are 'kinder and gentler' than the old ones but they're not. Just a new breed of power hungry billionaires. 

And as mentioned by others I think shiv wasn't just choosing Tom, her husband, (not ex yet as I forgot they aren't divorced) but also her child and long term giving them a path into the company. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

All the comments about how Greg is nothing but a lapdog. With the sticker Tom put on his head, he’s been officially crowned the new Tom. The “yes” man. Willing to, metaphorically, suck all the dicks. Tom holds the brass ring; Greg is sitting pretty for the cycle to continue. 
 

 

5 minutes ago, dshgr said:

BTW, Greg is being kept around by Tom because of his role in the document destruction in the cruise scandal. 

No, I think Tom's had a liking and dependence on Greg emotionally. It's not just the document destruction. That was already public. Tom and Greg's relationship was fucked up, but they know what it is.

Greg basically got exactly what everyone laughed at him for suggesting: "So I'd be his number 2?" 

Just now, DobbsFox said:

I found it satisfying when Tom slapped Greg in the bathroom and Greg slapped him back instead of cowering in fear. It doesn't change their basic dynamic, but it was nice to see Tom get a taste.

Me too. And clearly Tom was okay with it. He seemed actually happy to put that sticker on his head, and not just in a sadistic "I'm going to make you pay" way. That was the scene Shiv ultimately didn't get with Tom.

[DobbsFox]

10 minutes ago, dshgr said:

Roman becomes a "Jeffery Epstein".

Roman has too many specific hangups to do that. Having random sex with lower-class women would disgust and terrify him. If anything, he would be a customer of an Epstein-like scheme.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, DobbsFox said:

Roman has too many specific hangups to do that. Having random sex with lower-class women would disgust and terrify him. If anything, he would be a customer of an Epstein-like scheme.

Also, it's been very clearly established Roman can barely if ever have sex. He's Dr. No-Fuck.

[DobbsFox]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

Connor may not be ambassador after all to Slovenia and Willa wasn't going to go with and now may have to actually live with him as actual husband and wife.  But they'll be okay, they won't be as rich as the other Roys but they're relatively well-adjusted.

But the look on Willa's face when she realized she may have to spend more time on the same continent as Connor - priceless.

[vibeology]

17 minutes ago, dshgr said:

Roman becomes a "Jeffery Epstein".

I don't know. Besides Roman having way to many sex hang ups, he's the one who could see that it was all bullshit. He's going to end up some weird mix of Ewan and Caroline now that he's let go of Logan. The Ewan part will the the guy alone, far from his family and estranged from them. The Caroline part will be that he will swan around luxurious places (I don't see him living in one place the way Ewan lives in Montreal. He loves those PJs.) He's going to be aimless and bitter but convince himself that he's happy.

[Macbeth1966]

That was fantastic!!

Well done.  Best finale ever. IMO

HBO made up for GOT.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Macbeth1966

[SnapHappy]

I expected more, frankly.  

The field trip to Barbados was ridiculous and wasted so much time.  

Shiv's gonna be bored with motherhood after about 15 minutes, then is going to be looking for something meaningful and top-dog to do in the new company.  She'll be laughed out the building because she has NO job now, and guaranteed they'll keep her sidelined.

She & Tom will be divorced within 2 years & while he's parading with HIS 26 year-old girlfriend, Shiv will be whining at the boards of exclusive preschools, trying to get her kid in & desperate to be able to trade on the Roy name.  She'll be sidelined again. 

She's toast, no matter how much money she gets.  She deserves nothing.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by SnapHappy

[Macbeth1966]

If they had done a second vote it would have been at minimum 8-5 as there was no way Roman was going to vote for Kendall.  And I doubt Stewy and Ewan would have been on board as well.

It probably would have been 12-1 as Kendall lost everyone.

And in the end Roman is alone.  Shiv "has" Tom where their marriage is a rapidly decomposing corpse.

And Kendall has Colin.  Who is there out of loyalty to his father.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Macbeth1966

[Penman61]

My own take now that we have the whole story is that all this talk of succession on Succession was really a MacGuffin. Or, to paraphrase the decades-proven wisdom of the classic movie WarGames: The only winning move is not to play.

The minute you mixed extreme paternal abuse and corporate succession, there was never going to be a good outcome for the Roy children. It just wasn't possible because they were seeking validation/approval not only from a person who could never give it--Logan Roy--but seeking it through a forum with its own incentives and cross-pressures: global corporate media. And these incentives are, to put it mildly, not conducive to gaining genuine parental acceptance and validation, even in the best of familial circumstances.

That's why I found the three siblings' endings very true and satisfying: Kendall is lost, with no idea who he is or what to do if he can't try to be Logan; Shiv is still caught up in playing the game as best she can, wielding attenuated power and seeking acceptance through a man she has utter contempt for; and Roman drinking alone but apparently starting to enjoy himself free of the game, whatever that means for him in his corroded, twisted soul--yet the only one who seems close to understanding that the only way to win is to get out of the game.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Penman61

[Eliot]

2 hours ago, ahpny said:

Why did Tom trust and rely upon Lukas following through about choosing Tom after Lukas had already backed out of choosing Shiv, without even without telling her? How could Tom know that Lukas wasn't also auditioning others for the role? Yes, Tom was the obsequious supplicant that Lukas wanted, and Shiv was too opinionated, entitled and non-deferential to smile silently in the background as Lukas pulled all the strings. But Lukas' track record of being erratic and failing to keep his promises should have been more troubling to Tom than it seemed to be. Then again, as Karl pointed out, Tom's never been the sharpest tack in the box. Maybe Tom choosing to believe Lukas was Tom's best play given his strained connection to Shiv. Where would he be had the "quad squad" won? Tom seemed easily to pass Lukas' docility/malleability test by remaining fully in passive mode without a hint of objection, outrage, or concern as Lukas contemplated screwing Shiv. Tom eagerly sucked up to his prospective figurehead role, which confirmed exactly what Shiv said about him. 

I think he was still uncertain. That’s why he was quizzing Shiv in that scene; just testing out to see whether the Matsson offer was real. He didn’t tell her it was him until he had confirmed in his own mind that he had the job.

Also, I disagree with folks who say that Shiv  was making her choice for Tom and their baby. The show runners did not know Sarah Snook was pregnant when they were planning the season, and to them, at least according to accounts that I have read, the pregnancy was kind of an afterthought. Kind of like it was to Shiv. I think ultimately it came down to a vote against Kendall versus a vote for Tom/Matsson. And she was right. He couldn’t do the job.

I haven’t seen this brought up anywhere else, but I thought that video with Logan was very telling. He was having a real family moment with his real (work) family. It kind of echoed the juxtaposition in the opening credits of Logan first at the table with his children, and then fading to Logan at the table with his key executives. That was ultimately where his heart lived, never with his children.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Eliot

[Alexander Pope]

10 minutes ago, Eliot said:

I think he was still uncertain. That’s why he was quizzing Shiv in that scene; just testing out to see whether the Matsson offer was real. He didn’t tell her it was him until he had confirmed in his own mind that he had the job.

Also, I disagree with folks who say that Shiv  was making her choice for Tom and their baby. The show runners did not know Sarah Snook was pregnant when they were planning the season, and to them, at least according to accounts that I have read, the pregnancy was kind of an afterthought. Kind of like it was to Shiv. I think ultimately it came down to a vote against Kendall versus a vote for Tom/Matsson. And she was right. He couldn’t do the job.

I haven’t seen this brought up anywhere else, but I thought that video with Logan was very telling. He was having a real family moment with his real (work) family. It kind of echoed the juxtaposition in the opening credits of Logan first at the table with his children, and then fading to Logan at the table with his key executives. That was ultimately where his heart lived, never with his children.

But Connor was at that dinner too, doing a really funny imitation of his dad.  It showed us that there was a relationship there we didn't know about, and that the other three kids didn't have.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Alexander Pope

[Eliot]

4 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

But Connor was at that dinner too, doing a really funny imitation of his dad.  It showed us that there was a relationship there we didn't know about, and that the other three kids didn't have.

Agree. I think what it showed was that Logan was the entire world to Kendall, Roman, and Shiv, but they were not his whole world.

[iMonrey]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

Kind of a so-what ending, but typical for this series.   I guess no one cares whether democracy survives -- maybe the show's way of saying it doesn't matter? -- but they did elevate the election question pretty prominently during the season.  To leave it unanswered, virtually unaddressed even, in the final episode, is negligent from a story-telling point of view IMO.

Lot of wasted time in the first two-thirds of this episode.   Thought the scenes at Caroline's would never end.   The final outcome was just the latest iteration of this series' predilection for bait-and-switch: lavish amounts of time are spent propping up characters who appear to be on the verge of becoming the heir/heirs apparent, only to have it all fall apart at the last moment.   What would have felt different for me is if Kendall, Roman and Shiv had actually pulled it off in the end.  Instead, we get the same old formula, the last in a long succession of let-downs for the Roy siblings.

So much all of this.

I don't know what exactly would have been a good ending for me, but this wasn't it. It felt more like a season finale than a series finale. Mostly I'm just mad at Shiv. It's true that Kendall would probably be a lousy CEO, but after the wonderful scene with the three of them in the kitchen acting like children, I really hated seeing them all torn apart and lashing out at each other. Again.

And that's been the problem with the show, for me. It always seemed to be going in circles. I get that the acting is stellar and the dialogue is entertaining but the story-telling itself always felt stagnant to me because the show wasn't brave enough to move on from its own memes. Like they simply had to find a way to insert Brian Cox into the episode even after he's dead. They just can't seem to get enough of him. Ha ha, he's an asshole and tells everyone to fuck off, ha ha ha isn't that hilarious? Audiences loved that so much it took the show four seasons to move in any direction and then it had to end because they didn't have Logan anymore I guess.

So many plot points left dangling, too, from the election to the Pierce deal to Tom and Shiv's relationship. Nothing really felt wrapped up. I guess the show wanted it that way, but it just didn't really work for me.

[RedDelicious]

I don’t think Shiv would ever be a trad wife. She has absolutely no idea how and has always mocked Tom for his more traditional midwest upbringing. 

I was glad she voted yes for the simple fact that she knew her brothers would always screw her over. And now they won’t be able to ever again. 

What kills me is now they’re all free, but they are completely unaware. Except Roman. I think the smile is that he is aware, and the frown is how they got there and he still has a lot of grieving to do.

I see Kendall remaining estranged and Connor/Roman/Shiv forging better relationships now that the pressure is off.

[MerBearHou]

As they were walking into the beautiful Barbados home, how about that little line Caroline said “the house hasn’t changed — leaks are still here.  I’ve managed to find the only hellhole in Paradise”.  Classic.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

52 minutes ago, Eliot said:

I think he was still uncertain. That’s why he was quizzing Shiv in that scene; just testing out to see whether the Matsson offer was real. He didn’t tell her it was him until he had confirmed in his own mind that he had the job.

Also, I disagree with folks who say that Shiv  was making her choice for Tom and their baby. The show runners did not know Sarah Snook was pregnant when they were planning the season, and to them, at least according to accounts that I have read, the pregnancy was kind of an afterthought. Kind of like it was to Shiv. I think ultimately it came down to a vote against Kendall versus a vote for Tom/Matsson. And she was right. He couldn’t do the job.

I haven’t seen this brought up anywhere else, but I thought that video with Logan was very telling. He was having a real family moment with his real (work) family. It kind of echoed the juxtaposition in the opening credits of Logan first at the table with his children, and then fading to Logan at the table with his key executives. That was ultimately where his heart lived, never with his children.

Putting aside what the showrunners knew or how that might have shaped what they did, I don't see how her possible concern about Kendall sucking as a CEO in and of itself would have led to her voting against it. If that was all there was, she could win the day and then undermine Kendall and possibly become CEO herself.

The thing that makes the most sense to me is that Shiv acted (as she tends to) in what she perceived as in her best self-interest:

Tom in power, her getting to play Lady MacBeth 2.0 behind the scenes in a corporate world that still is pretty unforgiving to highly capable women, her having a two-parent home for her future kid, her having a ton of money from the deal, her being able to move forward with the Pierce deal that was contingent on this sale or not.

[aghst]

10 hours ago, Avabelle said:

What an ending - I have to hand it to the show, in all my predictions of what would happen I never saw it being Tom. 

He's just a pain sponge.

He will get a phat golden parachute but it's only a few years, it's not going to be decades or anything.

 

[aghst]

3 hours ago, WatcherUatl10 said:

I saw it as Shiv choosing her kid(s) over everyone else. She went from "feminist" to trad wife in the course of the series. She has to do what's best for her offspring in the long run, and that means Tom as CEO, and her behind the scenes probably making him better than he would have been without her. But she'll probably raise her kids to compete with each other just the way she and her brothers (minus Con) did, because she's still her.

Only way it makes sense is that she thinks her shares will be worth more if they sell to Gojo now rather than rejecting the deal and relying on Kendall to steer the ship.

She didn't trust Kendall to run the company well.

If she sells all her shares, she's worth billions.  If she sells some but keeps some shares, she may trust that Mattson will do a better job of making the shares more valuable in the future.

She's got so much money that there's no question the kid will have everything, either way.

Now is she going to be hand on in the raising of the child?  My guess is no, she will fob it off to nannies.  She will probably fuck around on Tom instead of raising the kid -- the arrangement is still in effect!

How did she put it, she wanted a prenup in season 1 so that if she wanted to have these other dalliances, she wouldn't pay too much for them.

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

13 hours ago, nb360 said:

I wonder what Tom and Shiv's child will be like

That poor child is going to be more screwed up than the Roy sibs.

If it is a girl, I see Tom spoiling her rotten and transferring all his thrawted love on to her. 

If it is a boy, Shiv will take an interest and compete for his love. It will be Cersei with her boys. She will undermine Tom's authority all the time. And poor Tom with his normal childhood will be out manuevered.

Oh, I see Willa having a kid maybe. It would keep Connor occupied (I think he would be a great, weird dad).

[aghst]

One of the reasons, maybe the only reason Tom would keep Greg on is to do all the mass layoffs.

In other words, delegate some of the "pain sponge" function.

Greg is going to have to hope that he can win the lawsuit against Greenpeace.

[jeansheridan]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Roman drinking alone but apparently starting to enjoy himself free of the game, whatever that means for him in his corroded, twisted soul--yet the only one who seems close to understanding that the only way to win is to get out of the game.

To be fair, Connor knew it too. I have hope for Roman. Can a fascist snob evolve? Maybe. He also has humor on his side. Anyone who can laugh at themselves has hope in my opinion. He may never be good, but he can be less awful, less harmful. I really liked his ending. Connor, Roman, Kendall, then Shiv for the rankings. Shiv's dead eyes kind of killed me. I have never liked her, but seeing her blank was depressing.

[kittykat]

Well the kids earned exactly one thing this entire show and that was the right to eat Peter's cheese.

Kendall lost any hope I had with his pulling the "eldest boy" routine and then completely trying to disavow his part with the waiter.  He only had eyes for that crown.

Part of me thought that Vaulter Lawrence would be the new CEO with the show coming full circle from his promise back in the pilot but probably too much of a stretch since he hasn't been seen since early S2.

Greg doesn't win but doesn't exactly lose.  Greg gonna Greg which is fitting.

Still love how even though Tom is the new head it doesn't stop Statler and Waldorf Karl and Frank from endlessly mocking him. Rest on your golden parachuted laurels my friends.

[DrSpaceman73]

24 minutes ago, kittykat said:

Well the kids earned exactly one thing this entire show and that was the right to eat Peter's cheese.

Kendall lost any hope I had with his pulling the "eldest boy" routine and then completely trying to disavow his part with the waiter.  He only had eyes for that crown.

Part of me thought that Vaulter Lawrence would be the new CEO with the show coming full circle from his promise back in the pilot but probably too much of a stretch since he hasn't been seen since early S2.

Greg doesn't win but doesn't exactly lose.  Greg gonna Greg which is fitting.

Still love how even though Tom is the new head it doesn't stop Statler and Waldorf Karl and Frank from endlessly mocking him. Rest on your golden parachuted laurels my friends.

But notice the board underlings immediately start sucking up to the new boss and owner when around them.  They don't care who is in charge. Just survival and greed. 

I stated a season or so ago I'd watch a Greg tom spinoff and I still mean that. 

[Dobian]

Lukas with the Last Supper reference and then pointing to Greg laughing, "The Judas!"  Priceless.

[RedDelicious]

38 minutes ago, kittykat said:

then completely trying to disavow his part with the waiter.  He only had eyes for that crown.

I think that’s what sealed the deal for Shiv - Kendall was blatantly lying and she knew right then and there he would never not sell her out to get what he wanted only for himself.

[sadie]

So ultimately did Shiv decide she had more power as the wife of the CEO than the sister? I felt like that last scene was her residing herself to that fact, she had two choices and choosing Tom was the less awful of the two. Both choices sucked. Watching Tom slide into his new power was kind of chilling for me, for the first time he came across as calm and powerful vs insecure and desperate. I kind of want to know if he becomes just as awful as Logan in his own way, absolute power corrupts absolutely doesn’t it. Kendall isn’t long for this world. Roman may come out of this okay and Connor was the MVP for me. 

[millennium]

12 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Lukas with the Last Supper reference and then pointing to Greg laughing, "The Judas!"  Priceless.

Now we'll probably have to wait another three or four minutes before Alexander Skaarsgaard turns up in another series playing Alexander Skaarsgaard.

[jeansheridan]

18 minutes ago, sadie said:

Watching Tom slide into his new power was kind of chilling for me, for the first time he came across as calm and powerful vs insecure and desperate

This is the joy of McFayden in this role. He has had moments of calmness. When the headquarters were raided by the feds and he was talking to advertisers he was steady and charming. He kept his nerve to always back Logan when it always seemed like Logan at best tolerated him. He was calm when Logan had his UTI insanity and calm when Logan died. But McFayden could also make him an idiot too and a bully. His bullying sucks but it feels more like a middle class man striving versus Ken and Roman's nastiness. 

He is a pain sponge. I think about how he took Karl's brutal assessment of him. How he took Roman's snideness. Kendall's condesation. I am pretty sure Marcia dumped on him once. And he soaked it all up.

[Avabelle]

48 minutes ago, sadie said:

felt like that last scene was her residing herself to that fact, she had two choices and choosing Tom was the less awful of the two. Both choices sucked.

See I don’t understand her logic here - if her marriage was steady then maybe the wife of a CEO would be the better option but my bets is they’ll be divorced in less than a year. Tom has realised she only respects him when he acts like hates her and the marriage has reached the point now where he does kind of hate her. 
 

I think she just didn’t want Kendall to win. No major moral reasons, she just didn’t want him winning over her. 
 

So yeah actually maybe I get what you’re saying about Tom being the lesser of sucky choices. I don’t think him being the CEO gives her any insight into the company but I suppose at least Kendall didn’t win it? 
 

And maybe she’s just tired and wants out. At least this way it looks like she had some control.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Avabelle

[aghst]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

So ultimately did Shiv decide she had more power as the wife of the CEO than the sister? I felt like that last scene was her residing herself to that fact, she had two choices and choosing Tom was the less awful of the two. Both choices sucked. Watching Tom slide into his new power was kind of chilling for me, for the first time he came across as calm and powerful vs insecure and desperate. I kind of want to know if he becomes just as awful as Logan in his own way, absolute power corrupts absolutely doesn’t it. Kendall isn’t long for this world. Roman may come out of this okay and Connor was the MVP for me. 

 

14 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

See I don’t understand her logic here - if her marriage was steady then maybe the wife of a CEO would be the better option but my bets is they’ll be divorced in less than a year. Tom has realised she only respects him when he acts like hates her and the marriage has reached the point now where he does kind of hate her. 
 

I think she just didn’t want Kendall to win. No major moral reasons, she just didn’t want him winning over her. 
 

So yeah actually maybe I get what you’re saying about Tom being the lesser of sucky choices. I don’t think him being the CEO gives her any insight into the company but I suppose at least Kendall didn’t win it? 
 

And maybe she’s just tired and wants out. At least this way it looks like she had some control.

 

It was mostly personal for her, for them.

Think about all the awful things they've done to each other.

She has reasons to believe Kendall would stab her in the back again.  After all, they had an understanding when she agreed Ken and Roman could be co-CEOs, that they wouldn't ignore her, which they promptly did.

So on that beach, he made more promises, about her doing social media or something.

She has no reason to trust him.  Maybe when it was her turn to vote she realized she was the swing vote and she decided he can't let him win.

She could have said that she thinks the company will do worse under Kendall than if they're just sold now.  That was a plausible argument because Ken didn't have a vision.  His argument to her and Roman was about keeping it in the family, whether or not that was better for the business.

So is loyalty to family that important, considering all the shitty things they've said and done to each other?

 

[Macbeth1966]

I think Shiv changed her vote after Roman voted a very, very tentative "Nope," and Kendall said "That's fucking right."

I think Shiv had enough of Kendall's entitlement.  Especially when he went on to say he was the eldest.  And Shiv yelled back - No you are not.

No justice for Connor.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Macbeth1966

[MerBearHou]

Jeremy Strong revealed that there was a bit more filmed where he / Kendall tried to go over the rails into the water there at the end, and Colin pulled him back.  Jesse Armstrong chose to end the scene with Kendall on the bench looking out at the water, and I’m glad Jesse made that choice.  Kendall should not end his life over this, even if he feels like his world has shattered.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by MerBearHou

[jeansheridan]

26 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

Jesse Armstrong chose to cut the scene with Kendall on the bench looking out at the water, and I’m glad Jesse made that choice

Armstrong's discipline to avoid melodrama is impressive. That would have been too much. 

Armstrong said he may never write another show as good as this one. Maybe. I think he should do a proper comedy to clear his head.  I would love to see him work with McFayden again.

[Dobian]

The ending was honest.  The three kids were all dysfunctional in their own way and had too much baggage between them to ever come together.  During the whole series, the three of them never fully united on anything.  Sometimes two of them did but never three.  It was unrealistic given their history that they would unite to maintain control of Waystar Royco.  Logan ensured this outcome with how he raised them.  The irony is that Connor was the only one of them to end up happy with his life.  He had long ago abandoned the desire to follow in Dad's footsteps, probably when he was getting stoned in high school.

[SlovakPrincess]

Damn, that's bleak.  I'm not even sure Kendall deserves much sympathy, but he's just so needy and empty that it's hard not to feel bad for him.  

It's not clear Shiv had a clear reason for changing her mind at the last minute other than she simply couldn't bear to see Kendall get the coveted crown.  "You wouldn't be good at it" ... since when do any of them genuinely care about that?  I guess what she meant was "you don't deserve it more than the rest of us" (even though she no longer has a shot at it anyway) and she cannot let go of that.  Shiv is probably the most like Logan, at the end of the day -- sometimes, she's just cruel because she can be and if she thinks one of her siblings is gloating too much, she feels the need to take them down a peg.  You see glimmers of humanity from the others (at rare times), but Shiv has always been the coldest.  

Tom getting rewarded for his years of sucking up and punching down is ... probably quite realistic but yikes.  (I love the actor, cannot stand Tom the character lol).  

I guess Roman's just happy he doesn't have to pretend to be a businessman anymore.  

 

[Francie]

7 hours ago, catherinejane said:

He's Ewans Grandson? so he will probably get some money when he dies.

Not if Greenpeace has anything to say about that. 

[Avabelle]

53 minutes ago, Dobian said:

The irony is that Connor was the only one of them to end up happy with his life.

I don’t know if he looked all the happy with the new long distance relationship.

[Hedgehog2022]

One of the better series finales I've seen in awhile.

My takeaways:

The Roy family is a dysfunctional mess. Logan Roy and his former wife, Lady Caroline, mother to three of the Roy kids, were dysfunctional parents and in Logan's case an emotionally abusive parent to his kids. How they were parented (or not parented) was the foundation for their adult selves...more dysfunction.

As siblings their father pitted them against each other in who he favored...as adults he used this "rivalry" in his business dealings. One week it seemed Kendall was the heir apparent, another week it was Roman and then another week it was Shiv's turn to bathe in the sunlight. All of this manufactured mind fucking with his kids might have been for Logan's evil entertainment but I think he used this to make it seem as though one of them would be the chosen one when all the while he was looking for GoJo or another company to buy Waystar out so none of his kids would take it over.

He never wanted any of his kids to take it over...but why not toy with their ambitions/feelings/egos in the meantime? What a great Dad. How fitting that the ultimate suck up Tom would end up being the winner of this competition. 

Shiv coming to terms with her decision to make it 7-6 vote for a GoJo takeover was strategic and very Roy like. She knew she would be better off making nice with Tom for personal reasons. In her mind they had their battle, gotten the bad emotional baggage unpacked and could now move forward to make, hopefully, an amicable peace between them for their baby. He had used her and she had used him...if they divorce she can negotiate a decent alimony/child support agreement and co parent with Tom successfully.

All in all, a great series and it was smart to end it after four seasons. Perfect.