S05.E02: It's a Man, Man, Man, Man World

[Pallas]

It’s Midge’s first day at her new job. Anybody know The Caisson Song?

[PurpleTentacle]

I hate when shows do the "these once great friends now hate each other and/or haven't seen each other for a decade".

So I'm going to fanwank that it is a publicity stunt and Midge and Suzie are still best friends.

[bourbon]

Oof. This show is a bummer. I liked it when it was a fun fantasy of an NYC that never really existed with frothy dialogue and delicious costumes. Now it's this show about regret and the price of fame. Not really what I came here for. 

I am not digging the framing device. 

[debraran]

9 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I hate when shows do the "these once great friends now hate each other and/or haven't seen each other for a decade".

So I'm going to fanwank that it is a publicity stunt and Midge and Suzie are still best friends.

I hope so too, they are too good together.  I know finding a new soulmate is boring, but having her with so many husbands and men is so overdone too. Had to be the " bad mom" etc. I expect with the previous writing, it will get better. 

The first day of the job was pretty realistic for that time. 

"You can remove your hand now Abe" lol  Some things change, Abe is consistent.

When they showed her clothes, I thought of my favorite outfit, when she was in court season one.  Loved the color and combo.

 

 

[kathe5133]

Frank!

 

[SeanC]

14 hours ago, debraran said:

Had to be the " bad mom" etc.

Midge's indifference to parenting her kids has been a running joke among fans pretty much since the show started, though.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Oof. This show is a bummer. I liked it when it was a fun fantasy of an NYC that never really existed with frothy dialogue and delicious costumes. Now it's this show about regret and the price of fame. Not really what I came here for. 

I am not digging the framing device. 

Agreed. I'm loving all the present day scenes and the show in general but I don't like the flash-forward scenes to the future, they are kind of depressing.

[Francie]

Maybe my sense of humor is too corny, but my favorite of the jokes was the Unsinkable Molly Brown one (they'll be seating women and children first). Far better than the Eisenhower wears diapers one. 

I liked that the opening set expectations well. Even though it was a bit of a downer, it took away so many of the unnecessary "will this happen this season?" type questions. No, Joel and Midge won't reunite, at least long-term. Yes, Midge becomes a huge success. Suzie too. Now, on with what happened in 1961!

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

I liked that the opening set expectations well. Even though it was a bit of a downer, it took away so many of the unnecessary "will this happen this season?" type questions. No, Joel and Midge won't reunite, at least long-term. Yes, Midge becomes a huge success. Suzie too. Now, on with what happened in 1961!

But there's a shadow hanging over it at the end of the 1981 interview when Midge lies (or is supposed to be a joke?) about her "joy" at being a mother:

• [MIKE, INTERVIEWING MIDGE] And then there were her clothes. And you're putting all these up for auction?
  . . .
  And where do the proceeds go?
• [MIDGE] The Weissman/Maisel Children's Foundation, for childhood education, health, hunger, housing. Children are my best teachers. Through them, I've learned to love, to laugh, to listen. So everything I do, I do for the children.
• [MIKE] And so comedy superstar Midge Maisel soldiers on, through success and adversity, doing everything, in her words, "For the children."
• [SCENE CHANGES BACK TO 1961, MIDGE] Eat, damn it, you little bastard!

--which makes me doubt that anything Midge said in the interview was true, 🤔
perhaps including when Midge doesn't refute that she and Susie are at total odds with each other. 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by shapeshifter

[bybrandy]

So Suzie and Midge part ways in like 1983?  It feels real that Midge would have alienated her children and all the men butt that she and Suzie are at odds?   I'm not great with that.  Suzie does deserve better but still....

[SnapHappy]

But evidentially future Suzie is as huge a success as Midge, so she didn't get left behind.  But I do like the possibility it's a stunt, and they've been in contact.  They plan an astounding "reunion" to shock & delight the world.

And I've know women who spend huge amounts of time & money on supporting Children's charities, but are horrible parents. 

The Suzie dental problem went on way too long.  But I love she still has the boys in her office, and they're decorating it for her.  *LOL*

[Sarah 103]

This may verge on fan-fiction, but what if at some point her career needed some image rehab (which given that it's Midge we're talking about it isn't the most out there thing) and her managers/PR team suggested starting a charity for a worthy cause. The first thing Midge said/thought of was children, so that's what they went with. The managers/PR team figured out a few lines for Midge that she would agree to say when asked (shades of the fake studio backstories in Singin' in the Rain) about the charity. 

[janie jones]

23 hours ago, debraran said:

The first day of the job was pretty realistic for that time.

That whole thing bummed me out, but I was glad they didn't have all the men magically accept her and think she was the most hilarious person they'd ever met.

[reallyjustjen]

I can see why some may have liked the flash forward, but to me, it kind of ruined the fun of seeing where/how Midge and Suzy would end up.  Now that we know they’re both giant success stories, IMO it takes some of the fun out of watching the very non-linear path they’ve been on all series.  

[Badger]

Did anyone else catch the anachronism in the Clark Gable joke?

Although it was revealed much later that Loretta Young's "adopted" daughter Judy Lewis was in fact her child with Clark Gable, it was not known by the general public.  TBF, it was kind of an open secret in Hollywood.

At the time of his death, Clark Gable's widow was pregnant with his son, but he had no publicly acknowledged children.

[debraran]

9 hours ago, reallyjustjen said:

I can see why some may have liked the flash forward, but to me, it kind of ruined the fun of seeing where/how Midge and Suzy would end up.  Now that we know they’re both giant success stories, IMO it takes some of the fun out of watching the very non-linear path they’ve been on all series.  

I  was the odd ball who didn't like it with This is Us. Let us see it come out, not tease with FF moments. We know sadly Maisel is done this year so not as painful as seeing season 5 clip in season 3, but still. Let us just see it unfold.

[EtheltoTillie]

28 minutes ago, debraran said:

I  was the odd ball who didn't like it with This is Us. Let us see it come out, not tease with FF moments. We know sadly Maisel is done this year so not as painful as seeing season 5 clip in season 3, but still. Let us just see it unfold.

I'm with you on TIU, so you're not an oddball, and I didn't watch it for that reason.  Here it's okay, as it's a framing device, and it's actually fun.

[Quilt Fairy]

That 60 Minutes interview was rough.  What a sad, lifeless, brittle person Midge became, just a collection of one-liners.  We could go straight from that interview to the Jean Smart character in Hacks.  Knowing the cost of her "success" is really going to cast a pall over the rest of the season. 

I have a question.  She's working at 30 Rock, which is NBC, so this is clearly meant to be The Tonight Show.  But Midge mentions Jack Paar as a competitor, yet Jack Paar was the host of The Tonight Show (known as The Jack Paar Tonight Show) at that time.  Same basic show, same time slot.   That seems an odd error for ASP to make, or am I missing something?

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I have a question.  She's working at 30 Rock, which is NBC, so this is clearly meant to be The Tonight Show.  But Midge mentions Jack Paar as a competitor, yet Jack Paar was the host of The Tonight Show (known as The Jack Paar Tonight Show) at that time.  Same basic show, same time slot.   That seems an odd error for ASP to make, or am I missing something?

Well, Gordon Ford is an entirely fictional character, seemingly a composite of several real personages. 
But nobody doing late night TV ever looked that good, IMO.

So, the Jack Paar reference is "real," but the context is not. 

At least that's my take on it.

[SnarkShark]

I don't like the implications in the past two episodes that Future Midge is kind of a nightmare. 

Yes, she's always a mess.  Often thoughtless.  Definitely neurotic.  And yes, we've even seen plenty to suggest she's a very questionable parent.

But between the 4am call crap last episode with her daughter (admittedly echoed by how she calls Suzie in the middle of the night), the unexplained split with Suzie, and how insincere some of that faux 60-Minutes interview came off?  Ugh. 

[Juneau Gal]

39 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

I don't like the implications in the past two episodes that Future Midge is kind of a nightmare. 

Yes, she's always a mess.  Often thoughtless.  Definitely neurotic.  And yes, we've even seen plenty to suggest she's a very questionable parent.

But between the 4am call crap last episode with her daughter (admittedly echoed by how she calls Suzie in the middle of the night), the unexplained split with Suzie, and how insincere some of that faux 60-Minutes interview came off?  Ugh. 

I don’t like the tired trope of a career woman must give up all else to be successful in her career. It’s been suggested that much of Midge’s career trajectory is fashioned off of Joan Rivers. Joan had a successful marriage, Edgar killing himself not withstanding, a wonderfully diverse life outside of stand up, and a loving relationship with her daughter. 
I’m sad they decided to take this the Mommie Dearest route with Midge. The writers seem to have gotten themselves into a place they don’t know how to write around by giving Midge kids in the first place. 

[reallyjustjen]

I also dislike that they made Midge into a fairly absent/limited parent, but I also think it’s at least partly due to the schedules/maximum hours and unpredictability of the tiny kid actors.  At least that’s what I tell myself! 

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, reallyjustjen said:

I also dislike that they made Midge into a fairly absent/limited parent,

In fairness, she’s been shown to be an absent parent since the first season.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

In fairness, she’s been shown to be an absent parent since the first season.

Recently my sister was reminiscing about when she was 5 years old in the 1950s and I was 2 and my mom would leave us alone while we were supposed to be napping so Mom could go get coffee with the neighbor.
I think bad parenting was par for the course back then. 
 

Edited April 17, 2023 by shapeshifter

[quangtran]

7 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

But between the 4am call crap last episode with her daughter (admittedly echoed by how she calls Suzie in the middle of the night)

That 4am call wasn't just an echo to her calling Suzie in the past, it was a reference to Midge (and Rose) always being obsessed that Ester grows up pretty. From their very first scene we see them worry that Esther's forehead is too big, or Rose saying that there are good surgeons in Paris who can fix her.

[kwnyc]

23 minutes ago, quangtran said:

From their very first scene we see them worry that Esther's forehead is too big, or Rose saying that there are good surgeons in Paris who can fix her.

Makes you wonder what kind of mom Midge would have been had Joel NOT cheated on her. (I doubt she would have found her way into a career of any kind otherwise). She was determined to be the very BEST housewife on the UWS, and might have turned into some kind of crazed uber-mom for lack of anything better to do.

[Daff]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:32 PM, shapeshifter said:

So everything I do, I do for the children.

It sounds as false on Midge’s lips as on the lips of current politicians in the news..bleh.

[LoveLeigh]

This future Midge is arrogant and obnoxious. While I liked seeing that she "made it," I think they should have saved that reveal for the last episode. It adds nothing to the episodes as the season advances.

Edited April 17, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, chessiegal said:

I grew up in a small town. My mom didn't go to work until I was a teenager. But she would never have left me at home alone at ages 7 or younger. I was out and about playing or riding my bike, visiting friends, but she always knew where I was.

Replied to the comments about parenting in the 1950s and 60s in the Small Talk thread here: 

 

[gorgy]

In my head, I imagined from the beginning that the series finale would somehow involve Lorelai and Rory Gilmore watching an old Mrs. Maisel comedy special, but these flash forwards are just so bleak. I get that I'm only burning myself putting my own expectation up against reality, but I'm not really feeling these bits at all. Knowing that Midge gets married a bunch of times doesn't bother me ( I also like that she's refreshingly bad as a mother, but that's besides the point), but it just feel like Jess Mariano or whatever his name is on this show is wasting my time with this plot device. Her career came first and everybody else came second - got it. Do I need to see anymore episodes to drive home that she "doesn't have it all?" eh, not really. It's like, way to miss why people liked this show in the first place. 

[chitowngirl]

I wonder if Milo’s character ends up bring husband #2? Or #3? or #4? 

[Pallas]

I think we've seen all four husbands (as of the early '80s): Joel, Paul Simon, Robert Evans and Quincy Jones. Though perhaps one, two or three of the latter were romances?

[chaifan]

On 4/17/2023 at 1:43 AM, kwnyc said:

Makes you wonder what kind of mom Midge would have been had Joel NOT cheated on her. (I doubt she would have found her way into a career of any kind otherwise). She was determined to be the very BEST housewife on the UWS, and might have turned into some kind of crazed uber-mom for lack of anything better to do.

I think she would have been incredibly bored hanging with the other housewives and would have probably been drunk 1/2 of the day because of it.  So the kids would have been raised equally as bad, if not worse. 

I liked the first day of work.  I was afraid Midge would "save the day", and I'm glad they didn't go there.  They made her a normal part of the writer's group, not some special Mary Sue comic writing genius.  I did like that she inadvertently fucked up the guys after work routine. 

So, Midge is working 8 hours at a day job, and still doing stand up at night?  Is that an every night gig?  Damn, that's going to be a hard schedule to keep up.   And how does she wear heels 14 hours a day???

Count me among those who are not enjoying these flash forward beginning scenes.  Last week's was ok, but I don't want to find out everything about everyone now.  I feel like it's cheating and reading the last paragraph of the book first.  I'm almost tempted to just fast forward through the rest of them, then watch them all in a row after I'm done with the season.  But, I'm going to trust the writers and not do that. 

The scenes with Abe and the French lady were hilarious!  And the follow up scene with him in the office!  God, I love Tony Shaloub.  (It's after 7pm, so I can say that.)

 

[basil]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:23 PM, SnapHappy said:

The Suzie dental problem went on way too long.

If I saw her finger in her mouth ONE more time!

 

On 4/16/2023 at 10:23 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

What a sad, lifeless, brittle person Midge became, just a collection of one-liners.

She's always been kind of sad and brittle. It stands to reason that she would lose energy as she aged. She has never been the kind of character that I could root for.

She's an awful person.

[maddie965]

For me, those flash forwards are so ridiculous and absurd, I can't take them seriously. I'm always waiting for some kind of explanation, like Midge is dreaming them, or having some kind of mental issue where she imagines all those things, and we're going to see her recovering at some clinic. Please tell me that's what's happening here. Because the alternative is that the writers decided to ruin the show completely. Turning Midge into a bitter old lady who never found happiness is like killing the character, shooting the series in the face and betraying the audience in the worst way possible.

I hate it. Just. Stop.

[millennium]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:52 PM, bourbon said:

I liked it when it was a fun fantasy of an NYC that never really existed with frothy dialogue and delicious costumes.

The framing device has sullied everything.

Seeing Midge forrest-gumped into black-and-white photos alongside real life celebrities felt tawdry.   She was always so much brighter and more colorful than real life.   And the daughter doing the mini-Midge impersonation is weird.

[Welshman in Ca]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:44 PM, shapeshifter said:

Recently my sister was reminiscing about when she was 5 years old in the 1950s and I was 2 and my mom would leave us alone while we were supposed to be napping so Mom could go get coffee with the neighbor.
I think bad parenting was par for the course back then. 
 

And yet for all of the now so called bad parenting in the 50s,60s & 70s here we all are. It was just the norm rather than people being bad parents & don't forget the walking uphill to school & back in snowdrifts.

[Suzn]

2 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

And yet for all of the now so called bad parenting in the 50s,60s & 70s here we all are. It was just the norm rather than people being bad parents & don't forget the walking uphill to school & back in snowdrifts.

As if parenting now is all so great!  In every era, there is good and bad parenting.

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

And yet for all of the now so called bad parenting in the 50s,60s & 70s here we all are.

Not all of us. 

[smartymarty]

This show has gone from comedy to tragi-comedy this season. Knowing that Midge never stops being self-centered makes it even worse. I'm also quite tired of the exaggerated comedy like singing the Caisson song and Abe not taking the woman's hand off of his thigh. Yes, one may be stunned by that move, but not so stunned that they don't remove the hand, and then stammer something. He's not 15. It's just insulting my intelligence.

And by g*d, that man sneezing repeatedly without covering his mouth. It's not like people just started doing that in the 70s or something.
 

On 4/15/2023 at 1:58 PM, Francie said:

Maybe my sense of humor is too corny, but my favorite of the jokes was the Unsinkable Molly Brown one (they'll be seating women and children first). Far better than the Eisenhower wears diapers one. 

My favorite, too. I actually laughed out loud. The Eisenhower one didn't make sense to me. Heart attack victims don't become incontinent.

[Sarah 103]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:34 PM, smartymarty said:

The Eisenhower one didn't make sense to me. Heart attack victims don't become incontinent.

I didn't think the joke was connected to the fact that Eisenhower had a heart attack. I thought the joke was based on the idea/premise that Eisenhower was old. 

[smartymarty]

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I didn't think the joke was connected to the fact that Eisenhower had a heart attack. I thought the joke was based on the idea/premise that Eisenhower was old. 

I guess 70 seemed old then.

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I didn't think the joke was connected to the fact that Eisenhower had a heart attack. I thought the joke was based on the idea/premise that Eisenhower was old. 

11 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I guess 70 seemed old then.

Maybe the joke was more related to his post-stroke condition? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#Health_issues

 

[Oosala]

On 4/28/2023 at 5:22 AM, shapeshifter said:

Maybe the joke was more related to his post-stroke condition? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#Health_issues

The link from @shapeshifter says that, among many other health problems, Eisenhower suffered from Crohn's disease, so the joke, while distasteful, would definitely work.  But would this condition be public knowledge in the 1950s when he was diagnosed?  Highly doubtful.  Heck, Kennedy's multiple affairs were not public knowledge and those happened a decade later.  Oh well, it's ASP's world; we just live in it.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Oosala
Edited because of perfectionism.

[ProudMary]

On 5/1/2023 at 2:07 PM, Oosala said:

Edited because of perfectionism.

😄 ❤️

[lucindabelle]

As a 58 year old woman I must say the aging up is magnificent. She’s that little bit jowly, eyes seem hooded, she’s wider. So often when aging up they just think Grey (as if hair color did not exist) and wrinkles. Midge should have some smokers wrinkles but not everyone does. But everyone’s face gets softer at the jawline.

rhe contrast going back to young midge was amazing. With her perfect jaw and big wide eyes. 
 

agree with all who feel older Midge is kind of obnoxious. I’ve always liked Midge and sense the vulnerability and hurt. Don’t like smug older Midge.

[desertflower]

I’m a little behind watching this season but the flash forward just makes Midge even more unlikeable and I too hope it ends up to be some kind of dream sequence or something. 
 
Between this show and Gilmore Girls I get the distinct impression ASP is not a fan of kids. Lorelei and Rory are the only tender, loving parent-child relationship I think I’ve seen on either show. Mostly, kids are portrayed as an annoyance or the butt of a joke on her shows. (Which I’m ok with some of the time, Luke’s rant about kids having jam hands is still one of my favorites on GG.) But a little balance would be nice and maybe Midge could actually be shown ya know, enjoying her kids once in a while. 

[KittyQ]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:23 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

That 60 Minutes interview was rough.  What a sad, lifeless, brittle person Midge became, just a collection of one-liners.  We could go straight from that interview to the Jean Smart character in Hacks.  Knowing the cost of her "success" is really going to cast a pall over the rest of the season. 

I immediately thought of Deborah Vance, too. Are both characters based on Joan Rivers (or someone else)?