All Episodes Discussion

[LuvMyShows]

So unless I missed it, they never explained who the female DNA belonged to that was found along with the male DNA that belonged to Sherri's ex.  Also, at one point, didn't they say there was a video that showed her before she made it to the highway, and she was crossing a church parking lot? I wanted to know more about that.

On 4/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, Melina22 said:

Somehow I never heard of Sherri till now. What an utterly baffling crime! I can see why some people think she's mentally ill, because it's barely believable that someone would go through all that physical torture, and for what? A few thousand dollars? Some attention? There's just so much about this story that makes no sense. 

Actually, I was surprised that only one person was shown who suggested Sherri was mentally ill, and the way that woman was talking about it, was as though most people did not think Sherri was mentally ill.  I think Sherri must be completely off her rocker.  First, that when she decided to return home, she concluded that the best course of action was to make it look like a bizarre kidnapping; second, that when she thought of that plan, she came up with the totally insane things she did, like having herself branded; and third, to have actually gone through with doing those insane things. 

[mythoughtis]

I think Keith probably didn’t know anything until the police confronted Sherri.  Who would willingly believe that their spouse  would do such a thing without absolute proof? This woman was in counseling afterwards for 5 years  and the counselor never caught on to any of her deceit.  It took for police that long to catch on too. 
 
I don’t hold it against him that he used the money that had been donated to pay off debts- I’m sure some of those debts were incurred due to her being gone or for treatment when she got back.   It also depends on what the gofundme said when it was created.  But I will admit I’d feel bad at this point  about it due to the fact that she did this to herself. 
 

I’m trying to understand the ex-fiancée being so totally clueless ( can’t think of a politically correct word to better describe it) that he helped her brand herself, threw hockey pucks at her and so forth. Who would do that?  
 

I feel so sorry for her children 
 

Edited April 27, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Whimsy]

9 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

I think Keith probably didn’t know anything until the police confronted Sherri.  Who would willingly believe that their spouse  would do such a thing without absolute proof? This woman was in counseling afterwards for 5 years  and the counselor never caught on to any of her deceit.  It took for police that long to catch on too. 
 
I don’t hold it against him that he used the money that had been donated to pay off debts- I’m sure some of those debts were incurred due to her being gone or for treatment when she got back.   It also depends on what the gofundme said when it was created.  But I will admit I’d feel bad at this point  about it due to the fact that she did this to herself. 
 

I’m trying to understand the ex-fiancée being so totally clueless ( can’t think of a politically correct word to better describe it) that he helped her brand herself, threw hockey pucks at her and so forth. Who would do that?  
 

I feel so sorry for her children 
 

We don’t know that the counselor want talking to Sherri about her deceit. They are held to confidentiality, after all. We know what she told people she tallied about, but that could’ve been a lie too like everything else. 
 

The reason she has to pay restitution is because she used government funds for her “recovery” including medical and therapeutic. Keith MAY have charged up the cards due to her “kidnapping”, but it wasn’t for her treatment. 
 

I don’t get that ex-boyfriend either. Even is he believed she was running from her abusive husband, why would he agree to hitting her with hockey pucks??

[LuvMyShows]

2 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I don’t get that ex-boyfriend either.  Even is he believed she was running from her abusive husband, why would he agree to hitting her with hockey pucks??

Remember that at that point she had decided to go back to her husband and family.  So if she says to the delusional ex, "My abusive husband will beat the crap out of me if he thinks I ran away voluntarily.  You've got to help me make it look like I was held against my will.", then the ex actually thinks he is doing something for her benefit. 

[A.Ham]

On 4/25/2022 at 2:38 PM, gaPeach said:

I don't think it was racist as much as it was just crazy as hell!  Her Ex-boyfriend is Hispanic so she had no issue dating him.

From my perspective, that doesn't negate her racism. You can be crazy as hell and a racist too--that's not a good combination. And you can certainly date someone with a Latin surname and also have something against Latin people (or women, in this case). It reminds me of the old "I can't be racist, I have black friends!" defense. Doesn't hold water in my eyes.

What does hold water for me is when I see a blog post where she wrote "Being white is more than just being aware of my skin, but of standing behind Skinheads -- who are always around, in spirit, as well" that's not coincidental. It's a way of life for her, and she was willing to post that on social media. Just an example of a horrible human being all around.

I also heard a podcast where they discussed the case (I am not a podcast person but listened to that one on a long drive the other day) and heard them discussing Keith's defense of her, once people started to doubt her story. He apparently used the word "sub-human" to refer to the doubters. Which could have been an honest expression of disgust, but it's also a term that is known to be used in white pride groups to refer to other races. Just made me go "hmmmm". Maybe there's a reason these two were attracted to one another. I do believe that he was not in on Sherri's plan. But I still side-eye him for that. 

[Irlandesa]

Ugh. I wish I had waited to watch Dateline so I wouldn't have wasted my time.  Not that it was a bad case; it was just a terrible ending.

How do they have a blanket and not ask people about it?  It boggles the mind.  Or even maybe try and test for DNA to see if it matches Timmy or the mother.

And I'm boggled that they didn't feel it was enough evidence.  People grieve differently so I don't factor in her choices to travel but surely the ever changing stories combined with the blanket are enough. 

She got away with murder.  I'm sure of it.

[Annber03]

23 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

How do they have a blanket and not ask people about it?  It boggles the mind.  Or even maybe try and test for DNA to see if it matches Timmy or the mother.

My mom was wondering about that stuff, too. I can't believe that blanket sat in evidence for so long. I could see having some issues trying to get DNA off it back in the early '90s - DNA science was a thing then, yes, but investigators were still adjusting to using it and whatnot, so okay, fine. But as time went on and the DNA process continued to improve and advance...so many opportunities to check it a lot sooner. 

Also, I can't remember, did they say they interviewed that friend who came with the niece to the carnival to meet up with Michelle and Timmy? 'Cause if not, there's another witness that could've proved helpful. 

Quote

And I'm boggled that they didn't feel it was enough evidence.  People grieve differently so I don't factor in her choices to travel but surely the ever changing stories combined with the blanket are enough. 

Her criminal activity in the years following her son's death really didn't help her case. First she stages a kidnapping, which was just freaking weird, then she steals a laptop, and she works with her cop husband on all of this craziness, no less. Just...if you really want to prove that you're innocent of hurting and killing your child, maybe don't add more reasons for people to look at you as a criminal? I'm just saying. 

The thing that got me about her changing stories was how elaborate she kept making them. All she had to do was simply say, "I was going to get a soda, I turned around, and my son was gone."  and leave it at that. That would've been a perfectly believable, sympathetic story, as that is, unfortunately, a very common way for children to go missing. 

But no, she has to throw in this story about this mysterious Ellen and then bring in this talk about these two guys who are threatening her and kidnapping her kid right in the middle of a carnival full of people and it just got to be way too much craziness. 

(I did get a kick out of how she was spotted on her trip by a couple of off-duty officers who also happened to be in the area. What are the odds?)

I also was amused by how the defense kept going on about how the babysitters' testimony wasn't strong enough because too much time had passed and their memories might not be accurate and so on...but they had no problem believing these carnival workers who were like, "Yeah, I saw someone who fit Timmy's description there that day." Wouldn't their memories be just as iffy as the babysitters' (even more so in their case, since the babysitters would've actually, y'know, spent time directly with Timmy, unlike the carnival workers)? I mean, they didn't even say they definitively saw Timmy, they just said they saw someone who resembled him, which...I mean, it's a carnival, there were probably tons of five year old boys who resembled Timmy in some way wandering around that weekend, and given how popular Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were at the time, there were likely quite a few kids wearing those kinds of shoes as well.

That said, if any carnival workers actually did see Timmy himself that day, my mom and I were wondering if maybe Michelle had taken Timmy to the carnival earlier in the day, paraded him around, made sure there were people who could confirm seeing him there, and then she took him home afterward, killed him, and came back just in time to meet up with her niece and the other person who was with them and put on the whole, "Oh, no, my son is missing!" routine. I mean, it'd be a lot of a ruse to go through, but hell, this woman managed to go so far as to stage her own kidnapping, so she's clearly got no problem coming up with elaborate ruses. 

Quote

She got away with murder.  I'm sure of it.

Agreed. I don't blame those jurors for being pissed, I would be, too, if I were in their shoes. The whole thing about them all meeting up where Timmy's body was found to honor him was quite touching. 

I also felt for Timmy's childhood neighbor, Tara, losing this friend she had so much fun with. Her thing about tapping on her wall the night he went missing, in the hopes of hearing from him, was heartbreaking. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Annber03 said:

My mom was wondering about that stuff, too. I can't believe that blanket sat in evidence for so long. I could see having some issues trying to get DNA off it back in the early '90s - DNA science was a thing then, yes, but investigators were still adjusting to using it and whatnot, so okay, fine. But as time went on and the DNA process continued to improve and advance...so many opportunities to check it a lot sooner. 

Also, I can't remember, did they say they interviewed that friend who came with the niece to the carnival to meet up with Michelle and Timmy? 'Cause if not, there's another witness that could've proved helpful. 

Her criminal activity in the years following her son's death really didn't help her case. First she stages a kidnapping, which was just freaking weird, then she steals a laptop, and she works with her cop husband on all of this craziness, no less. Just...if you really want to prove that you're innocent of hurting and killing your child, maybe don't add more reasons for people to look at you as a criminal? I'm just saying. 

The thing that got me about her changing stories was how elaborate she kept making them. All she had to do was simply say, "I was going to get a soda, I turned around, and my son was gone."  and leave it at that. That would've been a perfectly believable, sympathetic story, as that is, unfortunately, a very common way for children to go missing. 

But no, she has to throw in this story about this mysterious Ellen and then bring in this talk about these two guys who are threatening her and kidnapping her kid right in the middle of a carnival full of people and it just got to be way too much craziness. 

(I did get a kick out of how she was spotted on her trip by a couple of off-duty officers who also happened to be in the area. What are the odds?)

I also was amused by how the defense kept going on about how the babysitters' testimony wasn't strong enough because too much time had passed and their memories might not be accurate and so on...but they had no problem believing these carnival workers who were like, "Yeah, I saw someone who fit Timmy's description there that day." Wouldn't their memories be just as iffy as the babysitters' (even more so in their case, since the babysitters would've actually, y'know, spent time directly with Timmy, unlike the carnival workers)? I mean, they didn't even say they definitively saw Timmy, they just said they saw someone who resembled him, which...I mean, it's a carnival, there were probably tons of five year old boys who resembled Timmy in some way wandering around that weekend, and given how popular Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were at the time, there were likely quite a few kids wearing those kinds of shoes as well.

That said, if any carnival workers actually did see Timmy himself that day, my mom and I were wondering if maybe Michelle had taken Timmy to the carnival earlier in the day, paraded him around, made sure there were people who could confirm seeing him there, and then she took him home afterward, killed him, and came back just in time to meet up with her niece and the other person who was with them and put on the whole, "Oh, no, my son is missing!" routine. I mean, it'd be a lot of a ruse to go through, but hell, this woman managed to go so far as to stage her own kidnapping, so she's clearly got no problem coming up with elaborate ruses. 

Agreed. I don't blame those jurors for being pissed, I would be, too, if I were in their shoes. The whole thing about them all meeting up where Timmy's body was found to honor him was quite touching. 

I also felt for Timmy's childhood neighbor, Tara, losing this friend she had so much fun with. Her thing about tapping on her wall the night he went missing, in the hopes of hearing from him, was heartbreaking. 

Nothing for me to add because you covered  everything I was thinking (and more).

You and your Mom have excellent observation/deduction skills. You connected behaviors others missed.

The two of you should start a detective agency.  :)
 

 

[CrazyInAlabama]

DNA tests are so expensive, that I bet the newer cases were given priority over older cases.   Look at the backlog in testing rape kits, in some jurisdictions they are years behind.  

[Madding crowd]

At the very least they should have asked people if they recognized the blanket and they should have noticed if she did any recent painting or remodeling in her house. People do grieve differently but a mother whose son is still missing that goes on a vacation to party and dance is just evil. It would be different if she went somewhere to lay low but even then wouldn’t you stay home in case your child is found? I hate stories where people hurt children.

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

Nothing for me to add because you covered  everything I was thinking (and more).

You and your Mom have excellent observation/deduction skills. You connected behaviors others missed.

The two of you should start a detective agency.  :)

Haha, thanks, glad to be in agreement :D. The result of watching way too much "Dateline"/true crime in general, it seems :p. 

But yeah, I agree with others here that grief can be weird and people deal in different, and sometimes odd, ways, but...there's just so much bizarre stuff Michelle did here, both around the time her son went missing and after, that I just can't picture your average mom who's lost a child doing.

ETA: When her niece mentioned getting that call that her kids were gone, before we learned that Michelle had put them with another family member, I was briefly afraid we'd find out something awful had happened to them, too. Same with the news that Michelle had a couple more kids years later. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Annber03

[Angeltoes]

She reminded me of Casey Anthony with the partying.

[UsernameFatigue]

Like others, I am appalled that Michelle had her conviction overturned. I have no doubt that she is guilty.  She seemed guilty right away to me when the niece arrived at the carnival to find Michelle just standing there. It was the 15 year old niece FFS who had to go get a police officer and tell him there was a missing child. And then of course there was Michelle's ever changing story, fake Ellen and fake Ellen's friends with knives. 

I am also appalled though at the sloppy police work. To not bother contacting the teacher who found the shoe, who then had to go to media three weeks later to have the police do anything? And to just assume that the blanket was unrelated without even checking? Un-friggin-believable. 

I agree with posters who say that it makes no sense that the carni who said he remembered Timmy would be believed, but not the niece and babysitters who recognized the blanket. Hubby and I thought that maybe Michelle was there a previous day with Timmy, didn't think that it could have been earlier in the day which is also possible.

One thing that I wondered was who was the parent of the niece? They only interviewed the niece, and the sister who had moved away and believed everything that Michelle said.  Maybe they said it and I missed it, but found it interesting that those were the only two family members interviewed. 

I don't understand why Michelle was just exonerated without having to stand another trial? And you would think that the blanket would have been tested, regardless of cost if it meant making sure that a killer was not being set free. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by UsernameFatigue

[Ohmo]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

She got away with murder.  I'm sure of it.

Irlandesa did all of my typing for me,  Michelle is guilty, IMO,  Her sister has been completely duped.

I want to know what Timmy's father thinks.

[12catcrazy]

I can't add much to what has already been said but Michelle got away with murder.   The jury had it right.  And did anybody else notice her body language when she was being filmed asking for whoever took her son to bring him back?  She would sort of turn her head away and downturn her eyes which to me said that she was lying and knew damn well that her child hadn't been kidnapped.  

This seems to me to be the case of a woman who just got sick of being tied down with a young child and wanted "out".  It was probably easier to kill him than to dump him on other family members to turn him over to foster care.   I think that if her sister hadn't moved to Florida, the boy would not have been murdered as it sounded as if the older sister did much of the child care work in the family.   And no surprise that she sticks by Michelle while writing off the niece as a lying, wanting revenge drug addict.    Better to think ill of the drug addict than to come to grips with the fact that your beloved "little sister" murdered her five year old child.    

[Crashcourse]

I was so incensed after watching this episode and Michelle getting away with murder, I was starting to feel sick to my stomach.   

[thejuicer]

13 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I was so incensed after watching this episode and Michelle getting away with murder, I was starting to feel sick to my stomach.   

Totally agree. I have a 5 year old who also loves red shirts and Ninja Turtles. Seeing those sneakers made me want to cry. 

For some reason it seems like the investigation was bungled from the beginning. I was gobsmacked when the ?detective said about the random child size sneaker found in the deserted swamp close to the carnival, something like "So what? It's just a sneaker!" What? Not to mention the other oddities - the Chip and Dales, the faked kidnapping, the painted banister, "Ellen". Poor Timmy. Sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer. 

[Lsk02]

I wondered if the police thoroughly examined her house in the immediate aftermath of Timmy going missing. The one female detective who interviewed her later mentioned the bannister on the stairs being replaced. That definitely raised my suspicions. I’m assuming that duplex was a rental, and who does major home improvement projects in a rental? I know it was the early 90s, but I vividly remember a  true crime TV movie back then about a murder and the room lit up with Luminol, so that had to be something they could have used do investigate, right? I wish had talked more about looking at the house. 
 

My theory is she accidentally knocked him down the stairs and he hit his head. :( 

 

[ButterQueen]

I’m sorry this is OT, but I have to ask.  Did anyone watch the 2 part show on Oxygen last night called Perfect World:  A Deadly Game?  It was heartbreaking, but very interesting.  I don’t want to spoil it.

The latest Dateline was a snooze and aggravating.  That poor child.

[ButterQueen]

On 4/21/2022 at 5:16 PM, PsychoKlown said:

Finally.  Maybe this will lead to justice for Dan. 
 

https://nypost.com/2022/04/21/fla-dentist-charles-adelson-accused-of-hiring-hitman-to-kill-sisters-ex-husband-in-2014/

I so wish Wendi and her mom could be charged as well.  

On 4/18/2022 at 10:05 PM, Cinnabon said:

Meanwhile, they knew from GPS that Pam was there and lied about being home when she was still within 3 miles of Betsy’s house. 

I thought Pam did it when the original Dateline aired.  So glad she is also being looked at for her mother’s death.

[Ohmo]

I don't understand how the NJ Supreme Court can say that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Michelle.  Evidence is interpreted by the jury, and apparently the jury had no problem with their interpretation.  It was circumstantial evidence, but there was plenty of evidence.

Even allowing for the fact that everyone grieves differently, her behavior over the years can most charitably be described as odd.  The NJ Supreme Court seems to be saying that it had the right to interpret the information.  What makes their interpretation any more valid than the jury's interpretation?

I firmly believe she did it.  I hope the airing of this episode makes her life very difficult.  Maybe it will get her sons to begin to question what happened as well.

[hookedontv]

Blue Blanket / Timmy Episode

How infuriating, I can’t believe Michelle’s conviction was overturned, and I can’t believe the police did not ask anyone about the blanket at the time of the murder. Shoddy. 

[Kiss my mutt]

Did they determine that the blanket belonged to Timmy? I kept asking myself, if the mother says it’s not his,  then she should be able to produce his blanket at home. Though not conclusive, it would make a case for the blanket in the park being his.  
She absolutely did it. There are no other suspects.  And now she has two other children? 
 

I kept trying to give her the benefit of the doubt until it was revealed she took a cruise and the police office saw her partying it up like she didn’t have a care in the world and then changing her story over and over.  It’s just an obscene miscarriage of justice that her sentence was overturned. 

[Josiemae]

Why didn't Andrea ask the defense attorney why his client couldn't tell the same story twice about the moments surrounding her son's disappearance? The sister was infuriating in her unquestioning loyalty.  And where is the dad? How sad that no one was looking after that sweet little boy. 

[iMonrey]

Just got around to watching this, my local affiliate broke in halfway through to talk about weather. Had to watch on NBC streaming with commercials. Good Lord, the commercials!

Anyway, I had the same thought as Lsk02, that Michelle probably killed Timmy by accident and tried to cover it up. Even if she hit him or deliberately killed him it was probably in the heat of the moment and she went to the carnival to concoct a plausible explanation for why her kid suddenly went missing. 

I'll concede there may not have been enough physical evidence to convict her but there's no getting past her changing her story over and over again, especially when the story kept getting more elaborate and strange.

Quote

I don't understand why Michelle was just exonerated without having to stand another trial?

It seems like the NJ Supreme Court actually took the extra step of changing her verdict from "guilty" to "not guilty" instead of just overturning the verdict and leaving it up to the DA as to whether to re-try. Once someone is declared not guilty they cannot be tried again.

Quote

The NJ Supreme Court seems to be saying that it had the right to interpret the information.  What makes their interpretation any more valid than the jury's interpretation?

Agreed. Seven judges hearing evidence from attorneys aren't in any better position than 12 jurors who sat through the trial for weeks. 

[pdlinda]

17 hours ago, Josiemae said:

And where is the dad? How sad that no one was looking after that sweet little boy. 

That was uppermost in my mind!  Aside from excluding him from being a possible suspect it was presented as if there was no "father."

I understand he was very young when the pregnancy happened and there was probably little to no contact through the short span of Timmy's life; however, that doesn't mean that the circumstances of Timmy's death wouldn't be important to the bio father.

Maybe if the bio father had more to do with Timmy's life this might not have occurred.  Who knows???

[A.Ham]

Finally got around to seeing The Real story about Pam Hupp. It was an exercise in frustration. I mean, we all know the story, but the prosecutor did not do herself any favors with her denial. I suppose she can’t really admit to anything if she’s being investigated for misconduct, but still. She really came across as believing her own BS, against all evidence, similar to the way Pam would make statements and expected everyone to believe them as just facts. Leah just kept digging her head in the sand. 
 

I did love Keith’s exasperated “it was your job!”.

Pam really had it easy-must be nice when the prosecutor takes the job of defending the killer and not letting facts come to light.

Edited May 2, 2022 by A.Ham
Autocorrect messed me up

[GiandujaPie]

I agree with a lot of what was already said about Timmy, Michelle and the Blue Blanket episode. Michelle was Casey Anthony before Casey Anthony. And yes, why would the carnival workers be believed after all this time but not the babysitters? 

I also can't believe the NJ Supreme Court just overruled the jury verdict by saying there wasn't enough evidence to convict and the jury got it wrong. If they can do that, why even bother having a jury trial? It should have been sent back to the original court and the judge there should have forced the prosecution to come up with more evidence or dismiss the case until they had more evidence so that way they could bring up the case again if they did some more investigation and got more evidence. Now, even if they find more evidence, double jeopardy is attached and Michelle has gotten away with murder. I'd be mad too if I were on the jury. 

On another topic, did anyone watch the repeat on Friday night? I had never seen it before and I just couldn't believe the coldness of Charlene. I don't understand why the prosecutors didn't make a deal with her husband instead of her. Yes, he pulled the trigger, but clearly he would never have done anything if not for her. She set the whole thing in motion and she could have stopped it, especially when he crashed the rental car and she had to drive 5 hours to go get him a new one. Unbelievable. 

[Court]

I'm just catching up and I agree with everyone else. Michelle 1000% got away with murder. It infuriates me her conviction was changed to not guilty especially when there are so many others who are actually wrongfully convicted. 

I don't understand how the court decided there wasn't enough evidence and took the additional step of saying not guilty. I'm so mad about this!

[chick binewski]

Oh dear Oxygen is airing The Carrollton Plot right now. Clicking away to avoid rage-posting.

UGH but not soon enough to escape that deeply obnoxious overly-rehearsed daughter!

[CrazyInAlabama]

22 hours ago, chick binewski said:

Oh dear Oxygen is airing The Carrollton Plot right now. Clicking away to avoid rage-posting.

UGH but not soon enough to escape that deeply obnoxious overly-rehearsed daughter!

I agree.   The way the adult children supported their cheating, embezzling, murderous father is bizarre.   I guess they chose the one who has the most money, which his employers would like to have back.     The mother should cut all of them off, and move on with her life, because her children have abandoned her.   

I don't see how the adult children have abandoned her for their despicable father.    I'm guessing after the money was gone, the husband's girlfriend and her daughter dumped him too.    Unless he still has money stashed somewhere, and that's why he's still supported by his despicable children. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[SunnyBeBe]

They’re seeking death penalty against Lori Vallow.  I wonder if they’ll let her plead to LWithoutP.  
 

https://people.com/crime/prosecutors-seek-death-penalty-for-lori-vallow-charged-with-killing-children/

 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by SunnyBeBe

[JudyObscure]

I wonder if Lori still thinks she's going to be beamed up just before the apocalypse (already running late as it is) so that she and Chad can be Queen and King  of the end times showdown?

If so, then all this death penalty talk wont worry her as much as the very real possibility of running out of red lipstick before the trial.

[SunnyBeBe]

There are a lot of possibilities with this case. Will they cut her husband a deal, so he can testify against her, ensuring two murder convictions and putting them in good standing to get her the death penalty?  Sad to cut him slack, but if guarantees a conviction against her?  It might be worth it.  There could be doubt if they point the finger at each other……..   I hope they have ample evidence on them.  She is a real killer, that’s for sure.  

[nora1992]

“Matt folded faster than the night crew at The Gap.”

Josh had such a way with words.

Horrible case - I don’t mean to make light of the crime. 

[Annber03]

Just now, nora1992 said:

“Matt folded faster than the night crew at The Gap.”

Josh had such a way with words.

That was quite the line :D. I also loved him talking to the detective and being all, "So he's washing blood out of her hair, and at no point does he ask, 'Honey, what happened?'." Love how quick Matt was to throw his wife under the bus, too. Real stand up guy. 

I hate this couple. And I hate that the woman shares my first name. I feel so bad for poor little Alice. 

[rlc]

Sad case. I wish they hadn’t spent so much time on Annie’s sex life. It had nothing to do with her murder.
 

Though I will say, I think some of the people the police interviewed were probably having fun with it and realized that the police would believe anything- ‘so first we dress up like pirates, and then we do weird sex-stuff with knives because everyone knows that pirates love knives. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh. Wait till you see what we do with the hook, the eye patch, and the parrot.’

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, rlc said:

Though I will say, I think some of the people the police interviewed were probably having fun with it and realized that the police would believe anything- ‘so first we dress up like pirates, and then we do weird sex-stuff with knives because everyone knows that pirates love knives. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh. Wait till you see what we do with the hook, the eye patch, and the parrot.’

LMAO, I could see that. That part of the story was...random.

I hope they do ultimately manage to nab Matt on murder charges, because it's so obvious he was involved. I'm amazed they haven't charged him on the obvious disability fraud he was committing, at least that could've kept him in prison for a while alongside or on top of what he was charged with in regards to the murder, and perhaps given them more time to prepare a proper case against him. 

Also strange that he was willing to throw Angela under the bus early on, but now when they're both in jail, they're clamming up and refusing to squeal on each other. Don't think love's driving that decision, there's clearly some other reason they're both willing to protect each other all of a sudden. 

Those roommates of theirs were equally as weird. I can sympathize with struggling to acknowledge that people you knew were involved in a murder plot, but...I dunno, they just seemed to have very odd attitudes about this whole case. 

And speaking of the people around them, hey, great job, neighbors, listening to all that awful noise and not doing a damn thing in response! Way to totally drop the ball! Sheesh. That 911 operator seemed awfully cheerful during that call, too - I know that they have to remain calm and composed and all, of course, and I know they have a script to follow and required questions they need to ask, but hearing her try and ask all this stuff in such a lighthearted tone while Annie was clearly fighting for her life was just excruciating. 

I'm glad Alice ultimately wound up in a good home and seems to be doing all right, all things considered. I wish her well. 

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That 911 operator seemed awfully cheerful during that call, too -

I know, she sounded almost like, "Someone tried to kill you?  Cool!  Do you know who it was?  You say you've been stabbed and you're bleeding to death?  Want me to call  an ambulance?"  Poor Annie used her last ounce of strength to shout, "YES!"

I wonder why Annie didn't say it was Angela?  That's what I would have used my last ounce of strength for.

Matt and Angela are such awful people they should go to jail just for multiple counts of SSDI fraud and bringing up children in that sleazy atmosphere.  I think he had managed to get disability payments for all the kids.  How do you prove a three year-old is bipolar?  Did she cry and laugh on the same day?  I hope all the kids are in a safe place.  Please, Courts, don't let Angela's ex have her kids.

[iMonrey]

Quote

‘so first we dress up like pirates, and then we do weird sex-stuff with knives because everyone knows that pirates love knives.

Yeah . . . I was unaware of any correlation between pirates and knives prior to this. I don't automatically think "knives" when I hear the word "pirates." I think eye patches, peg legs and parrots. Weapons-wise, the first thing that comes to mind is swords.

Quote

I know, she sounded almost like, "Someone tried to kill you?  Cool!  Do you know who it was?  You say you've been stabbed and you're bleeding to death?  Want me to call  an ambulance?" 

I think she had a hard time hearing her, but she was way too casual about the whole thing.

Quote

I wonder why Annie didn't say it was Angela?  That's what I would have used my last ounce of strength for.

I'm not clear on how this whole thing went down. Annie told the 911 operator she didn't know her assailant's name. That makes me think it was Angela's ex-husband, the one that was living with her. It had to be someone Annie didn't know.

Matt was a real piece of work, but I take exception to the investigator's insistence that an innocent person wouldn't answer a question a certain way. If I'm ever hauled in for questioning the only thing coming out of my mouth is "I want a lawyer." And if they ask why I'll say "Because I watch Dateline." Maybe Matt watches Dateline too.

[Madding crowd]

Watching all of these true crime shows has made me lose respect for some 911 operators. I know they have a hard job, my husband is a police officer but when they play a lot of these calls the operator is either really casual or yelling at a person who is being injured or just found a loved one murdered. They can find the address pretty quickly by tracking the phone so yelling at someone because they are crying is not called for in my opinion. 

[TVbitch]

Both Matt and Angela need to go back to acting class. 

I was also cringing at the cheery 911 operator. On so many of these calls the victim is clearly in agony, incapacitated and barely able to speak but the operator will ask such questions as "do you need an ambulance?" instead of immediately dispatching police and ambulance. I'm sure they get quite a few nuisance calls, but it is not that hard to read the situation. 

Matt better get charged with something. How are you on national television shown faking illness, defrauding the government, admitting to trying to hire a hit man to kill your murdered ex, lying to police, admitting to tampering with evidence and abetting the murderer, etc., etc., and you are STILL WALKING AROUND. Ridiculous. 

I did appreciate that the detective was thorough, smart, and remained stoic when Josh tried to get him to react to Annie's sex life. 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I know, she sounded almost like, "Someone tried to kill you?  Cool!  Do you know who it was?  You say you've been stabbed and you're bleeding to death?  Want me to call  an ambulance?"  Poor Annie used her last ounce of strength to shout, "YES!"

It reminded me of the 911 call in the Josh Powell case, when that social worker was trying to tell the 911 operator about how Josh had snatched the kids away from her and locked them and himself in the house, and she couldn't get in. She was trying to impress upon the operator how serious the situation was, but instead, he was just fixated on asking her over and over and over again how to spell Josh's name and asking her about the visitation setup with Josh and the kids, and other things of that sort, which gave Josh more time to put his horrific plan into action. I remember the 911 operator got a lot of flak for that. 

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear on how this whole thing went down. Annie told the 911 operator she didn't know her assailant's name. That makes me think it was Angela's ex-husband, the one that was living with her. It had to be someone Annie didn't know.

My mom thought the same thing. Either that, or Angela might've put on some kind of disguise that made it hard for Annie to properly identify her, one of the two. 

I do love that Matt didn't wind up getting any of the life insurance money XD. My mom actually commented on that possibility early on, she was like, "Wouldn't it be great if he went to get the life insurance, only to find out that it was set up for Alice only, and he couldn't touch any of it?" And sure enough... And what's more, there were TWO life insurance policies, one from her work and a personal one, and he got squat from both. That's hilarious. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Annber03

[BusyOctober]

Of all the BS I heard about Matt and Angela, I did learn something.  Matt said his job was “professional parent”.  Did not know this was an accredited position!  Why didn’t my college advisor clue me in about this Parenting degree?

I guess I have been half-assing my parenting job for 16+ years!  I have 2 kids, a full time job and a 5-10 hour a week part time job.  I volunteer 2 nights a month as a Girl Scout troop leader.  I do pickup and drop off for my kids’ various activities several days every week. Until my children turned 12, I was the sole housekeeper, cook, laundress and personal shopper for my family.  All this time, I thought I was giving my kids my best effort! 

[partofme]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And speaking of the people around them, hey, great job, neighbors, listening to all that awful noise and not doing a damn thing in response! Way to totally drop the ball! Sheesh

I kinda get this.   I’ve had times where I’ve heard weird noises from neighbors houses and I’ve wondered what was going on and if I should call 911, but you second guess yourself and don’t want to look foolish.  In my case I think not calling has always been the right thing, can’t say without being there if I’d know there was a reason to call here. 

[nora1992]

2 hours ago, partofme said:

I kinda get this.   I’ve had times where I’ve heard weird noises from neighbors houses and I’ve wondered what was going on and if I should call 911, but you second guess yourself and don’t want to look foolish.  In my case I think not calling has always been the right thing, can’t say without being there if I’d know there was a reason to call here. 

There was a case on a court show, maybe a month or two ago, where a woman was billed by her city for calling 911 after she heard girls screaming from next door.  As it turned out, the neighbors were hosting pre-teen girls for a slumber party.  The screaming didn’t indicate anything bad, but she was fined.  Do other cities penalize for false alarms?

[ridethemaverick]

So instead of getting jobs, these two welfare queens made their living defrauding taxpayers and used their kids to do so, and when they stood to lose something, they committed murder, defrauding Alice of her own loving mother. 

I'm so disgusted. And now we get to house and feed one of them for the next 25 years or so. I hope the husband ends up in a cell some day, too.

Sidenote: the fraud part reminded me of a case of a couple that pretended to be disabled (the husband pretended to be a veteran). They rode around on scooters but were caught lifting heavy stuff and working out. I can't remember their names.

[Irlandesa]

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear on how this whole thing went down. Annie told the 911 operator she didn't know her assailant's name. That makes me think it was Angela's ex-husband, the one that was living with her. It had to be someone Annie didn't know.

I don't think Annie saw who stabbed her.  It was 3 a.m. She was probably sleeping when stabbed.  I don't think there was any indication that the lights were on. 

In fact, I was a little skeptical at some of the cop's conclusions.  I think Matt is guilty but, as you said, there are very good reasons for him to react the way he did that wouldn't be because he's guilty.

But he's such a liar.  I don't know why the cop would believe him that the ex was involved. 

13 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I was also cringing at the cheery 911 operator. On so many of these calls the victim is clearly in agony, incapacitated and barely able to speak but the operator will ask such questions as "do you need an ambulance?" instead of immediately dispatching police and ambulance.

I don't know the ins and outs of 911 operators but just because we didn't hear them dispatch help doesn't mean they didn't.  I know they're usually doing a bunch of things on a call.  They're trying to keep the person on the other line calm and get information.  They're also assessing who needs to go to the scene and which units are closest.  I'm not sure but I also think they can dispatch via a computer these days and she might have been doing that while trying to keep Annie talking.

[UsernameFatigue]

I figured that Angela or Angela and accomplice if she had one must have been wearing disguises as Annie was tortured for 3 1/2 hours from when Angela arrived at 11:30 or so in the evening until she left at 3am. Must have disguised her voice as well, or Annie was so disoriented, in pain and near death when she called 911 that she was trying to reserve her strength and hold on. 

Wow, just when I thought I had seen every example of bad parenting, we have two losers who have found each other, and hatched a plan to make money off their kids so they don't have to work. I do wonder what it might do to Matt and Annie's daughter when she is old enough to learn that her step mother and possibly father killed her mother, and also only wanted her to make money off of her. 

And speaking of losers, WTF was up with Matt's You Tube videos?  How could there be any losers even more pathetic than Matt, who would find the life and ramblings of a pitiful excuse of a human (even putting the possible killer part aside) worth listening to? Mind boggling. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by UsernameFatigue

[Ohmo]

Matt has got to be involved.  Has to be.  I hope the detective (whom I thought was cool) keeps digging.

What does it say when I didn't like or trust anyone who was interviewed for this show, along with Angela and Matt?

I liked Annie, Alice,, the detective, and of course....JOSH!  Annie's choices wouldn't have been mine, but all parties were consenting adults, so go for it!

As with so many of these cases, just don't date.  From Matt, Annie was able to have Alice, but ultimately, she lost her life because of him.