S08.E01: Deep Breath

[roomtorome]

As someone who never liked Matt Smith in the role and has always liked PC in nearly everything I've seen him in, I do like it. 

 

But, I am the first to admit (and, ask) - if this is really a kid's show - how the heck do kids have any idea what is going on at any given time in any given episode?  I have always (I admit it!) had a rather difficult time keeping track of what's happening, who all these things/beings are, etc though I also admit, I am usually doing something else while watching but even if I wasn't, I don't think I'd have a good clear understanding of events unfolding - 

 

But, PC is terrific - his accent does force me to listen more closely - thankfully I DVR it or I would have missed some as I usually do the first time around with him - 

[Grammaeryn]

I really like Capaldi's Doctor and I might be in the minority but having a doctor who I wouldn't have been able to babysit will be enjoyable. 100% on board with Madame Vastra's comment that he should be like a mountain.

The negative in the premiere was Clara. She was whiny and pretty useless. I'm sorry, giving brave speeches while crying is not clever or amazing. And in the final robot fight, she was just standing there doing nothing for most of it.

I'm so glad her character is on the way out!  In my dream world, the Madame Vastra actress will be the new Companion.

(spoiler for next season -chip)

I think the new Doctor/Clara vibe feels like a divorced dad who gets his kid on the weekends.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Chip
next season spoilers

[Chaos Theory]

I liked it but then I've liked all the Doctors since Tennant. They have all had their place and time and i have enjoyed all of them. As for the episode itself; any episode with Madame Vastra and Jenny is fine with me. Hell even Clara wasn't annoying. Maybe she just didn't mesh with Matt Smiths. It looks like she has more chemistry with the new Doctor.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[Abbagirl]

There is so much to comment on about this ep but I'm going to mention two things I haven't seen mentioned anywhere yet.

1) The 'eyebrows seceding from forehead' line...that has GOT to be a sly reference to the vote taking place in Scotland in a few weeks on secession from the UK!

2) We didn't see any gold regeneration energy coming out of the Doctor's mouth at any point. That has been a standard with the last 2 regenerations.

Oh, and a bonus item...I have to believe that the fixation with him half-recognizing his own face must mean that they're going to do something with the Fires of Pompeii...in some kinda retconn-y way.

[Lugal]

Actually the place Yana/the Master was sending all the people to was Utopia. I hope that Missy is not a female incarnation of the Master. I wonder if she could be a female incarnation of the Black Guardian. Although Moffett doesn't like classic Who so probably not.

[BizBuzz]

Just watched, and I am posting before reading any part of this thread, so forgive if I repeat.  I don't want my post to be biased in any way.

 

OMG!  I LOVED IT!

 

I know any introduction of a new doctor takes a little getting used to, but I warmed up to Peter right away.  Like immediately.  I love that he is Scottish, so he can complain.  I love that he is old (2000!!!).  I love that he was in his jimjams for a lot of the episode.

 

I thought the referenced to Girl in the Fireplace was a great continuity device. 

 

The whole Steampunk intro was a little much?  Was that just for this episode or is that supposed to be how it is now.  I looked at my daughter and said what is that?  Then I pretty much assumed it was because of the clockwork android thing, but I am not so sure.

 

I love that Clara was put off for a while by the new face.  Even though I warmed up immediately to Peter, my daughter didn't.  And she was with Clara almost the whole way.  Not quite figuring him out but at the end, loving him just the same.

 

MATT SMITH at the end pretty much brought the tears.  And he was by no means my favorite doctor.  The words were confirmation for all of us, this guy needs us, let him grow on us.  At least that is how I took it.

 

But...WHO THE HECK IS MISSY???

 

Overall, a great start to the season.  Yippee!!!

[wayne67]

I started disliking this episode as soon as I saw the dinosaur in Victoria London. It was funnier when it was pterodactyls flying around because River broke Time.

 

I'm having an increasingly harder time accepting that none of the characters seems to care about why the Tardis blew up, why Madame Kovarian was apparently waging an endless bitter war against the Doctor or River being the Doctors wife or Clara splintering through time watching the Doctor. 

 

The Doctor makes a promise to the dinosaur that he'll get her home and it dies... It's kind of amusing in a dark twisted way. The Doctor is often helpless to actually follow through with his bold promises to help. 

 

The episode seemed like a lot of attempts at "flashy stunts" than anything focused. Such as the interspecies lesbian kissing, spontaneous combustion, human clockwork robots, dinosaurs in London (doubly if you count Vastra), the mission impossible style rappelling from the roof. UGH

 

I am indifferent to the Doctor being older but the constant refrain about how old the Doctor is made little sense. Wasn't the Doctor like 1300 or 1500 ? now he's 2000 ? How long was he on Trenzalore ? Does this mean that whole Doctor's grave didn't happen? or will he just go back there later to die?

 

Also doesn't the Doctor usually offer the villains a way out normally ? He seemed genuinely upset the last time they died because they were so well made. This time he's like I'll probably have to kill you and it drops to its death apparently quite easily. The other robots surviving repeated stab wounds and injuries easily but the main robot apparently dies immediately from a fall...

 

Clara developed a little as a person with a sort of history but her threatening the robot control node seemed kind of stupid. I was left waiting for the robot to TRY torturing her a little but apparently it couldn't even be bothered trying anything. It robbed the moment of any implied drama when they were essentially staring at each other. It felt even more of a rip off since Clara expected the Doctor to be around to save her. 

 

In short: Doctor will do, Clara still makes little sense, writer driving me insane by glossing over major plot arcs every season with cheap flashy gimicks. 

Edited August 25, 2014 by wayne67

[tv-talk]

I'm so glad her character is on the way out!

 

 

I don't follow the various rumors and leaks....do you mean it's already been announced that Clara is being written off the show? 

 

above post edited for spoilers for next season. -chip

Edited August 25, 2014 by Chip
spoilers

[stopeslite]

My whole family and I had a hard time hearing the dialogue because the music and other sound effects were mixed in so loud compared to the voices. I hope that's not going to continue happening on future episodes. 

 

I agree with just about everybody. I did like Capaldi - he won me over with "planet of the pudding brains". But Clara is still mostly a bunch of nothing in terms of characterization. I did like that they beat the "he's not your boyfriend" so hard, because that seemed like a bit of fanservice (I, for one, wanted to yell all of that at her too). 

 

I wouldn't have minded going back to the clockwork robots if it hadn't been one of Moffat's own episodes. That seemed a little too twee. Like was said earlier, the writers thinking they're more clever than they are. 

 

Vastra really bothered me this time. I used to like her, but she was really treating Jenny badly. Seemed as though she finds Jenny amusing, rather than actually caring about her. I don't remember her being shown that way before. 

[tv-talk]

The Big Bad for this season of Doctor Who is Mary "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" Poppins, renegade Time Lady. You're welcome...

 

 

This was mentioned on the Aftershow last night and seems as plausible as anything else....really hope that doesnt mean majority of the season in Victorian London 

[LadyArcadia]

Now wait a minute, how/when did 11 make that phone call?? As far as he knew he was going to die that night. He was up in the tower when he received the new set of regenerations.

So, did I miss something?

[Lantern7]

LadyArcadia . . . maybe he called Clara's cell in her future while he was in the TARDIS, back when he was still "cooking." I'm okay with it, but I understand if others felt like it was a cheat. Heck, if Matt Smith didn't do that scene before Eleven kicked off, then I think it was a cheat.

[LexiconDevilOne]

My thoughts on Missy...

 

Since this episode had a bunch of full blown Easter Eggs to it, couldn't "Missy" be related to an Tennant episode entitled, 'The Doctors Daughter'?  Within that episode, not only was a daughter born, they also had DNA, Time Lord DNA.

 

Anyway, it was just one of the thought I woke up with last night after dreaming about this episode.

 

 

I thought Peter Capaldi rocked it. I so look forward to next week.

Edited August 25, 2014 by LexiconDevilOne

[ohjoy]

Now wait a minute, how/when did 11 make that phone call?? As far as he knew he was going to die that night. He was up in the tower when he received the new set of regenerations.

So, did I miss something?

LadyArcadia . . . maybe he called Clara's cell in her future while he was in the TARDIS, back when he was still "cooking." I'm okay with it, but I understand if others felt like it was a cheat. Heck, if Matt Smith didn't do that scene before Eleven kicked off, then I think it was a cheat.

In "The Time of the Doctor," after Eleven has used his newfound regeneration energy to blast all of the Daleks out of the sky, Clara emerges from wherever she had hunkered down with the townspeople and walks through the aftermath looking for the Doctor. When she gets to the TARDIS, she notices the outside phone is hanging off the hook -- there's a lingering shot of her hand as she hangs it back up. She then goes inside the TARDIS, and when she finally sees Eleven she assumes that he's fine, but he explains that he has already begun regenerating. I believe the phone he made was after he blew up the Daleks but before she emerged and got back to the TARDIS.

I seem to remember hearing some rumors back at the beginning of this year that Matt had phoned in for the show (I honestly forgot about until Twelve told Clara to answer her phone), but even if he didn't film it until they shot this episode, I'm pretty sure Moffat had planned for that phone call to happen in this episode when they shot TOTD last year.

Edited August 25, 2014 by RandomMe

[Grammaeryn]

I don't follow the various rumors and leaks....do you mean it's already been announced that Clara is being written off the show? 

 

Oh poop. I think it's still a rumor. Fixed my original post just in case.

 

(spoilers for next season -chip)

Edited August 25, 2014 by Chip
spoilers

[MarkHB]

To touch on the BBCA pre- and post-shows for a moment, the best part of the former IMHO was the Monty Python bit: they come out of the NY World Tour Stop video, and Chris Hardwick says in his best Graham Chapman-esque voice, "The person responsible for making me say 'Whobilation' before the break, has been sacked!"  To which Wil Wheaton immediately replies, "Was it Ralph the Wonder Llama?"  Exactly the kind of Holy Grail references my friends and I would have made back in the day, except these two were getting paid for it.  So far as the post-show went, who was that Natalie Morales (not from The Today Show, as even her Twitter bio makes clear) with the giant Joker-smile?

 

So far as the show itself went, I think Twelve actually reminded me a lot of Four; I think there was something in his delivery that really struck me as similar, and it's not surprising as I think Four was probably Capaldi's Doctor when he was growing up.  There was also something that gave me the impression that there was an actual merging of Twelve into the stream of Doctors, a more-deliberate (as in deliberative, not just "on-purpose") transition from Eleven to the new guy than has been done in the past.  Having a near-throwaway villain didn't bother me; it's not like we've seen the Atraxi again, either.  it's become something of a trope to pick a relatively simple villain for "meet the new Doctor" episodes, since there's so much going on with the regeneration itself.

 

Now that I think of the Atraxi, I did miss the "big reveal" moment that we had with Matt Smith and his "Hello, I'm the Doctor.  Basically, run."  At the same time, I'm very glad I was unspoiled about the episode, and the phone call in particular; I certainly wasn't getting verklempt, but I thought it was a nice touch.  And with all the comments here about the "not your boyfriend" stuff, I thought that in particular was part of the "getting from 11 to 12" migration, as the new Doctor has to spend some thought cycles digesting his immediate past life before he can move forward.  The way they phrased it was telling, too: "Clara, I'm not your boyfriend." "I never said you were." (almost under his breath, wistfully): "I didn't say it was your mistake," before telling her that the phone call might be from her boyfriend.  I didn't mind the "what about River" angle, though, because I think from the Doctor's perspective they're done... River is out of his future and effectively dead.  Otherwise we'd have to be asking about the validity of The Wedding of River Song since what happened to Susan's grandmother?

 

As for Vastra and Jenny's relationship, I think the reality is showing through the cracks: Vastra isn't going to regard Jenny as her equal any time soon, because Silurians view humans as pudding-brained inferior usurpers of their rightful stewardship of the planet.  Note that Jenny says she loves Vastra; we never hear Vastra say any such thing.  I can't say I didn't appreciate Jenny's posing for the non-painting, though ;)

 

Finally, I loved all the throwbacks, starting with Vastra's "Here we go again."  And I am thinking of tweeting Karen Gillan to ask if she ever caught Moffat checking out her legs when she hadn't been looking; this isn't the first time they were called out.  (But Clara not knowing who Amy was was another "what about the timestream" moment.)

[MarkHB]

Also, the new "clockwork" intro is permanent (for this season, anyway).  Apparently, one of TPTB ran across this fan-made intro (the guy's a pro, but this was a hobby project) and signed up the maker.  I believe his name's in the credits, but I didn't look carefully to be sure.

 

Personally, I loved it, and also loved that the new theme is a bit of a throwback and also gets rid of the "Oncoming Storm" or whatever it was countertheme that had been used for a good chunk of Eleven's tenure.  I also noted that the "face of the Doctor" moment in the real titles just features his eyes and eyebrows.

Edited August 25, 2014 by MarkHB

[SnideAsides]

I don't think I would have disliked this episode as much as I did if I wasn't distracted by Moffat making yet another genuinely creepy Who villain dull and/or comic relief. Daleks. Silurians. Cybermen. Weeping Angels. Sontarans. Ice Warriors. Autons. Zygons. Now the Clockwork Men. Is there anyone left?

[voiceover]

Adored Peter from his very first line.  Great, great intro.  Great scene in Mancini's ("Nothing is more important than my egomania!!" "Right.  You said that." I was on the fucking floor.)

Rory & River were a huge turn-off, so I've been mostly away the past couple years.  I am definitely back now.

 

It's nice to have a Doctor who's a contemporary.  So, no = I don't think he's old at all.

[GreyBunny]

Love the new steampunk opening credits.  The theme music is more retro too.

 

LOVE Capaldi!

 

The new interior of the Tardis is my favorite design yet.  Dark, sleek, with round things.

 

Moffat needs to better explain in-show how much Clara knows about what her splinter selves know because her freaked out reaction to Capaldi took me out of the show.  She's the Impossible Girl and she seems to know why she's called that, yet she couldn't grok regeneration which is Doctor 101.  

She also seemed to have a bit of trouble with some of the more basic time travel aspects when talking on the phone.  

Plus, she's been all over the universe and has met a variety of species of people and she's weird about Vastra being reptilian and that the Doctor now looks old?  Yeah, that was seriously bad writing. 

I want to like Clara but I'm looking forward to a new companion.

I love Vastra, Jenny, and Strax, they need their own spinoff.  

Edited August 25, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Llywela]

The negative in the premiere was Clara. She was whiny and pretty useless. I'm sorry, giving brave speeches while crying is not clever or amazing. And in the final robot fight, she was just standing there doing nothing for most of it.

I'm so glad her character is on the way out!  In my dream world, the Madame Vastra actress will be the new Companion.

It didn't bother me at all that Clara was unable to contribute to that fight. She isn't a fighter. She's a nanny-turned-schoolteacher. She was weaponless. What did she have to fight with? If she'd suddenly morphed into the Black Widow, we'd all have cried foul - her character has been given enough improbable abilities for the sake of plot convenience already. It came as a relief to me to find something she couldn't do. Her strength in opposition to an enemy lies in her quick thinking, not in physical fighting.

 

2) We didn't see any gold regeneration energy coming out of the Doctor's mouth at any point. That has been a standard with the last 2 regenerations.

Again, that didn't bother me at all - I didn't even notice. Every classic regeneration was completely different, so it's seemed weird to me that the modern ones have all been so alike. I found this one refreshing! (Well, the fireworks and Dalek destruction annoyed me enormously in TOTD, but the aftermath here I found refreshing)

 

Actually the place Yana/the Master was sending all the people to was Utopia. I hope that Missy is not a female incarnation of the Master. I wonder if she could be a female incarnation of the Black Guardian. Although Moffett doesn't like classic Who so probably not.

Of course Moffat doesn't like Classic Who, that's why he included subtle references to obscure classic adventures in every single episode of season 7b.

 

Moffat adores Classic Who. He has many faults, but that isn't one of them.

 

I am indifferent to the Doctor being older but the constant refrain about how old the Doctor is made little sense. Wasn't the Doctor like 1300 or 1500 ? now he's 2000 ? How long was he on Trenzalore ? Does this mean that whole Doctor's grave didn't happen? or will he just go back there later to die?

 

Also doesn't the Doctor usually offer the villains a way out normally ? He seemed genuinely upset the last time they died because they were so well made. This time he's like I'll probably have to kill you and it drops to its death apparently quite easily. The other robots surviving repeated stab wounds and injuries easily but the main robot apparently dies immediately from a fall...

 

Clara developed a little as a person with a sort of history but her threatening the robot control node seemed kind of stupid. I was left waiting for the robot to TRY torturing her a little but apparently it couldn't even be bothered trying anything. It robbed the moment of any implied drama when they were essentially staring at each other. It felt even more of a rip off since Clara expected the Doctor to be around to save her.

We were told in TOTD that the Doctor had been on Trenzalore for about 800 years, that's why he now calls himself over 2000. Of course, his New Who age has never added up, since both the 9th and 10th Doctors claimed to be younger than the 7th, and we now know that there should be probably hundreds more years in there somewhere to allow the War Doctor time to grow old. It's best not to look too closely at such details!

 

The lesser robots couldn't be killed until the main control node was de-activated, that was why it was necessary to kill that one, and why it died more easily (it didn't just die 'from a fall', it was impaled on the top of Big Ben!)

 

I really liked the scene where Clara was facing off against the control node. She was completely and utterly defenceless, scared stiff, yet managed to match wits against the creature that was threatening her. That's no small feat. And she did that as Clara, using her own memories and abilities, rather than being written as 'generic companion does something cool', the way she so often is. I appreciated that. She didn't know the Doctor was there the whole time. She just really, really hoped he'd be there for her. There's a big difference between expectation and desperate hope!

 

I don't follow the various rumors and leaks....do you mean it's already been announced that Clara is being written off the show? 

There was a rumour in the Mirror, which is hardly what you'd call a reliable source. It's been denied.

 

Moffat needs to better explain in-show how much Clara knows about what her splinter selves know because her freaked out reaction to Capaldi took me out of the show.  She's the Impossible Girl and she seems to know why she's called that, yet she couldn't grok regeneration which is Doctor 101.  

She also seemed to have a bit of trouble with some of the more basic time travel aspects when talking on the phone.  

Plus, she's been all over the universe and has met a variety of species of people and she's weird about Vastra being reptilian and that the Doctor now looks old?  Yeah, that was seriously bad writing.

I've gone over this a few times in this thread. Yes, it would be nice if we understood more of what Clara remembers, but so far it seems pretty clear that she remembers very little. She knows intellectually that regeneration is a thing, but that knowledge couldn't prepare her for the emotional hit of seeing the guy she was attached to suddenly lost to her forever, becoming a completely different person who doesn't even recognise her. Not once did she say 'I don't understand how this happened', she was simply mourning the friend she'd had because she couldn't recognise him in the madman in front of her. She did go a bit over the top about him lookin old now, that was the character being used to make an authorial point to the viewers (bad Moffat). And I didn't see her being weird about Vastra being reptilian - they've met before, they're friends. They had an argument because they were viewing a stressful situation very differently - Clara was struggling with the Doctor's regeneration and Vastra looked down on her for it. There was nothing about Vastra's reptilian nature there.

 

I didn't see her having any trouble with the concept of time travel on the phone, either. What I saw was a young woman absolutely blown away, emotionally, by receiving a telephone call from a dead man.

[Insomnia]

So, personally I don't think so, and I really haven't seen any mention of it, so I thought I will:

 

Wedding Ring?

 

This was pointed out by a friend of mine, and the friend was male and had been married, so should know what a male wedding ring looks like. To me it looks like just a ring as a band is normally a band, but he's a Timelord so who knows, really. I told him so and he countered with: 

 

This post.  Relevant bit:

 

 

In Doctor Who, he wears a special ring to cover his wedding ring while filming. "It sits on top of it," he says, holding his wedding band. "I didn't want to take it off because I felt sure that working every day for 32 weeks, if I took it off it would go somewhere or fall off somehow. So I got them to make a special Doctor Who ring that fits on top of it. It has a special gem in it ... but that's another story ."

 

 

So to me it looks like something that was mocked up so he could wear his RL ring, and the gem was given a backstory. But now my friend is convinced it's an In Character wedding ring too.

 

Soooo? Possible still married to Riversong even though it's a new generation and timey wimey already both had the last time they saw each other they thought? Someone else? Just a pretty stone that will come into play sometime this season, or there really isn't a backstory.

 

(I'm the last one.)

[Llywela]

Oh, I saw something - a quote from Capaldi - that explains the ring. Lemme see if I can find it...

 

“The granddaughter of first Doctor William Hartnell…opened this little box of props from the original series. She showed me this fabulous ring. Later, I had a band made with a stone in it [like Hartnell’s]. The stone was sent to me by a jeweler whose son wrote this little story that went with it, which was amazingly affecting.

He said the stone represented, and reminded the Doctor of, all the people he’s lost in his long life. But it wasn’t a sad thing. It was to remember how joyful times could be.

If you travel in time and space, most of the people you know and love will eventually be gone. But you’ll also be able to go and find them again.”
—   Peter Capaldi, discussing the Twelfth Doctor’s gold ring in an interview with TV Guide

So that's the meaning of the ring - I thought that was rather lovely.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Llywela

[Locutus]

About the "phone call": How did he know the Time Lords were going to give him a new regeneration cycle? It didn't happen yet, right?

[Llywela]

About the "phone call": How did he know the Time Lords were going to give him a new regeneration cycle? It didn't happen yet, right?

The phone call came after that - he'd already been given the new regeneration energy and destroyed the Daleks. He disappeared for a while at the end of Time of the Doctor - Clara went back to the TARDIS in search of him and found the telephone dangling. The episode made quite a point of showing her picking up the receiver and replacing it before she went inside and found the Doctor looking young again, regeneration already in process. That was when he made the call - after destroying the Daleks, when he knew he was changing.

 

Edit - I think Smith's part of the conversation was written and filmed at the time, it was planned well in advance.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Llywela

[GreyBunny]

 

<snip> I've gone over this a few times in this thread. <snip>

 

I stand by my observations.  In those scenes she was acting like a new companion who had never traveled at all.  The writing was sloppy and her characterization is wildly inconsistent.

"He always looks different. But I always know it's him... Sometimes it's like I've lived a thousand lives in a thousand places. I'm born, I live, I die. And always, there's the Doctor. Always I'm running to save the Doctor again and again and again... I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you. You're the eleventh Doctor."

 

Her memory of being weaving through the Doctor's timestream may be patchy but it's not entirely absent, and later she had an episode with Ten and the War Doctor which she has no reason to forget.  If she's as clever as she's supposed to be, she shouldn't have been surprised that Twelve was so different from Eleven and that regeneration would be traumatic for him.

Edited August 25, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Llywela]

Clara's characterisation has always been wildly inconsistent. But she made more sense to me in this episode than she ever has.

[Kalliste]

I liked this take on the episode (especially the Amy and River re-incarnation comments) :)

 

[darkestboy]

Loving the review there.

[Ltg.jon]

One thing that pushes more toward the idea that Missy is the Master is the repeated references to "The Promised Land."  Because that's where all the people in that pocket universe thought they were going to end up, back when the Master was running around as Yana.

And "Missy" could easily be short for "Mistress."  But then again, that may be a misdirect. 

 

In any case, Missy is clearly a villain, so I'm not worried about getting River Song 2.0.  (And I say "worried" not because I didn't love River Song, but because I think her story has been told and shouldn't be revisited.)

[Mabinogia]

She didn't know the Doctor was there the whole time. She just really, really hoped he'd be there for her. There's a big difference between expectation and desperate hope!

 

I actually loved that scene, and it ties into what I'm going to say below, because it did show a lack of expectation. The Doctor has always been there for her, but she's not entirely sure he will be this time. See below for further on that. I do hope it is all leading to something bigger than bad writing.

 

"He always looks different. But I always know it's him..."

 

 

I wish I had the confidence in TIIC to belief that their harping on her not dealing with this regeneration and having such trouble accepting that this is the Doctor, HER Doctor, actually meant something about this particular regeneration, that something did actually go, if not wrong, than different. That there is something quite different about this Doctor that, although intellectually she knows it's him, the connection she once had with him is not there this time for a story arc reason, not just sloppy writing. But the writing on this show is so very inconsistent and so terribly haphazard at times, that I am not confident at all.

[BizBuzz]

I wish I had the confidence in TIIC to belief that their harping on her not dealing with this regeneration and having such trouble accepting that this is the Doctor, HER Doctor, actually meant something about this particular regeneration, that something did actually go, if not wrong, than different. That there is something quite different about this Doctor that, although intellectually she knows it's him, the connection she once had with him is not there this time for a story arc reason, not just sloppy writing. But the writing on this show is so very inconsistent and so terribly haphazard at times, that I am not confident at all.

 

As explained in my post, I felt it was more of a device to commiserate with the audience, however, I like your thoughts so much better.  They actually make sense. 

 

We are in some new cycle of regenerations, so it could definitely be something is not quite right with things.  Hmmm, this could lead to some interesting stories!

[mac123x]

Yeah, I didn't care much for this episode.  I thought Capaldi was great, and will make a intimidating Doctor than the past two.  Other than that, ugh. 

 

Moffat is really good at creating creepy disturbing villains.  He's just awful at reusing them, because he seems unable to expand on something without changing it drastically.  I guess it's because he can make something nasty and mysterious, but once the mystery is revealed he can't think of anywhere to go, so the next time they pop up they have a new backstory, motives, and abilities. 

 

The clockwork robots originally were creepy because they wanted Madame de Pompadour but we didn't know why.  Turns out they wree trying to repair their ship that was named after her.  Next time they appear, they're no longer robots but cyborgs who have been living on Earth for an eternity stealing parts from animals an humans to continually repair themselves.  Umm, ok.

 

Same thing happened with the Angels, probably the most unnerving thing I'd seen in a while.  their motives and abilities changed every time they popped up on screen, to the point where I think they're pretty stupid.  Here's hoping he never decides to revisit the Vashta Nerada because he'd probably make them into something bent on consuming all life in the galaxy, with the Doctor having to ally himself with a renegade faction of VN vegetarians or some nonsense.

 

Jenny told Clara something like "we're married, but we have to pretend to be mistress/servant because of society".  Yeah, no, Jenny, as far as I can tell, Vashtra isn't pretending.  She treats you like her servant in public and in private.  Maybe I'm being speciesist acsribing human morality to an unfrozen primordial lizard, but Vashtra comes across as border-line abusive.

 

I'm definitely going to have to watch with the closed captioning turned on.  Loud background music, fast Scottish accented dialog, I have a hard time following.

[Llywela]

The clockwork robots originally were creepy because they wanted Madame de Pompadour but we didn't know why.  Turns out they wree trying to repair their ship that was named after her.  Next time they appear, they're no longer robots but cyborgs who have been living on Earth for an eternity stealing parts from animals an humans to continually repair themselves.  Umm, ok.

I think they were still robots - but robots who, over time, had replaced so much of themselves with human parts that they had become more like cyborgs (kind of like Cybermen in reverse). Using human parts for repair was exactly the same MO as we'd previously seen, just a different ship of robots with a slightly different malfunction. On the Madame de Pompadour the robots had fairly limited access to human parts (the crew) and only used them to repair the ship. This lot had access to the population of the Earth and used them to repair themselves, over probably a much greater span of time. They were both time ships - that's how these ones ended up crashed on Earth in the distant past in the first place.

 

I agree about the imbalance in the Jenny-Vastra relationship - but then, I've always disliked the Paternoster gang, for many reasons.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Llywela

[Mabinogia]

I think they were still robots - but robots who, over time, had replaced so much of themselves with human parts that they had become more like cyborgs

 

Another hint that this Doctor isn't exactly the same as he's been? He did bring up the idea that they had replaced so much of themselves that their original selves weren't there anymore. Maybe that is how he's feeling about regeneration? Is the Doctor having a midlife crisis? LOL (sorry, I love this idea, that he isn't quite himself this time. It will probably amount to nothing but fortunately for me I'm a very good writer so in my head this is how it is going to play out)

[Llywela]

I'm willing to believe that the Doctor is having a bit of a crisis, but I don't think it's a mid-life one - he's already been through his full regeneration cycle and is now out the other side! This is more like an afterlife crisis - I should be dead, yet here I still am with a whole new me, what's that all about?

[Fosca]

The "life crisis" idea is pretty neat; hopefully someone is writing fanfic with that theme, since I'll probably enjoy it more than I did this season.

 

I like Twelve, I think (once he got over the regeneration-assholerly that Moffat gave both him and Eleven).  It would be nice if Clara became a character rather than a plot device.  I never liked the Paternoster gang, and now given the obvious power imbalance between Jenny and Vashtra I like them even less (and Strax's schtick gets old really fast).

 

I'll give it a few more episodes, but I fully expect to bail the way I did with Eleven's seasons.  I really wish I could be more enthusiastic, but it just looks like more of the same with a new face.  I may need to just go back to watching the Christmas episodes ('tis the season to hope I'll like it) until Moffat leaves.

[Mabinogia]

Oh, afterlife crisis works even better (sorry, stopped watching Eleven after River kept popping up (could tolerate one or the other but not both) so I am missing big chunks of what happened then) That would be pretty weird, thinking that was your last go but nope, you're back for more. I mean, he's got to be exhausted at this point, and possibly not entirely thrilled about having another go of it. I have a fascination with the idea of immortality (not that I'd want it, but fascination in how it would affect someone) and would think it would get old after a few millennium.

[libraryone]

 

writer driving me insane by glossing over major plot arcs every season with cheap flashy gimicks.

 

That is Moffat to a T--flashy cleverness is his thing. And major plot arcs are really not. I've been disappointed with the execution of the season long arcs under his tenure. As well as the idea that every young female companion who travels with the Doctor has to be some sort of extra super special person.

 

Getting back to this episode, Missy was intriguing. But given Moffat's track record with plot arcs, I'm somewhat doubtful that I'm going to appreciate how it turns out.

[mledawn]

Just caught up on the premiere and I really enjoyed it. I was warming to the idea of Capaldi as the Doctor as the weeks went on through the summer.

 

I found it difficult to understand some of the dialogue (what did he say to Clara about "Amy" in the restaurant - I rewound many times and didn't catch it), and I did not understand how a major theme of the ep was Clara accepting the new reincarnation. I know it's been discussed already, but I thought it was sloppy - she is the Impossible Girl. They CALLED HER THAT in the episode! Gah.

 

I liked the new intro but not the new music. When I was a kid, the music alone scared the CRAP out of me when I watched Doctor Who the first time (Peter Davidson) - I changed the channel. The theme just doesn't have the same oomph as the last few.

 

I also wasn't able to descern something that might be Twelve's Theme in any part of the episode, but perhaps they haven't introduced it, yet.

[Llywela]

I found it difficult to understand some of the dialogue (what did he say to Clara about "Amy" in the restaurant - I rewound many times and didn't catch it), and I did not understand how a major theme of the ep was Clara accepting the new reincarnation. I know it's been discussed already, but I thought it was sloppy - she is the Impossible Girl. They CALLED HER THAT in the episode! Gah.

He said 'it's at times like this I miss Amy' - meaning that Amy's long legs would have made it easier for her to retrieve the dropped sonic screwdriver than Clara, who is short.

 

Being the Impossible Girl (oh, how I hate those nicknames for the companions, reducing the complexity of an individual to the simplicity of a soundbye) doesn't make it emotionally easier for Clara to adjust to losing her dear friend and accept this odd new bloke as him. Knowing something intellectually is not the same as experiencing it emotionally. I usually loathe Clara, but that particular storyline really didn't bother me at all. I don't care if it was inconsistent, lord knows inconsistency is nothing new on this show. I was just so happy that we were finally given a storyline that fleshed Clara out as a person, allowed her to react to something like a fallible and imperfect human, allowed her to struggle and fail. She's been such a cipher up till now - I prefer inconsistency to that. And it isn't really all that much of an inconsistency; it's easy enough to explain.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Also, Romana very consciously selected her new body, after first 'trying on' a few possibilities - various possibilities have been suggested for why she had more control over regeneration than the Doctor has ever had, but the inescapable conclusion is that the Doctor is generally just rubbish at regeneration!

Ten had no trouble choosing to keep the same appearance after being shot by a Dalek. We know that it was a true regeneration because, along with the War Doctor, it accounts for Eleven having none left - he'd used up all 12 and was on his 13th/last life. Maybe the Doctor finds it so difficult to choose among the infinite possibilities he normally doesn't try. Two nitpicked every suggestion the Time Lords were giving him when he was being forced to regenerate.

 

 

And why didn't the translator work on Clara so she spoke Dinosaur too?

That part of the Doctor was still "broken". The same thing happened when Ten wasn't finished regenerating.

 

I liked the Doctor's remark to the dinosaur that he usually picks up girls.

 

 

They were both time ships - that's how these ones ended up crashed on Earth in the distant past in the first place.

What Captain Jack had was a time ship. The ship in the original episode was just able to open small portals. This bunch came through in an escape pod.

[Llywela]

That part of the Doctor was still "broken". The same thing happened when Ten wasn't finished regenerating.

I don't think Clara would ever have been able to understand the dinosaur, regardless of the Doctor's regeneration - he's claimed to understand cats, horses and babies previously, without the people with him being able to similarly translate. Frankly, this whole 'I speak cat/horse/baby/dinosaur' business is one of those little Moffat quirks I really dislike - a joke taken way too far.

 

That said, how the TARDIS translation facility does or doesn't work is another of those details that's been shockingly inconsistent over the decades! Inconsistency is simply part and parcel of Doctor Who. :)

 

Edit - I don't remember Jack having a time ship. He used a vortex manipulator to travel through time. The spaceship he had when we first met him was stolen from the Chula.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Llywela

[Ltg.jon]

Jenny told Clara something like "we're married, but we have to pretend to be mistress/servant because of society".  Yeah, no, Jenny, as far as I can tell, Vashtra isn't pretending.  She treats you like her servant in public and in private.

That's exactly what Jenny was commenting on, and griping about, in that scene.  She's not a naive victim being abused by her spouse -- she's aware of this dynamic in their relationship, not thrilled with it, but willing to live with it.  She's made a choice that the positive things about her relationship with Vashtra outweigh this negative, at least for now. 

[Biosynth]

I enjoyed the episode and the New Doctor.  I'm 48, so having a Doctor 8 years older than me isn't too upsetting.  I find him dashing and interesting and elegant.

 

Most of you said want I wanted to say here, but I will chime in with this....the last few years I haven't been enjoying the way too fast dialogue crammed in.  That whole talking fast and frantically with short curt words.  It drives me crazy.  And the words Shut Up needs to stop.  It's sloppy and lazy writing and I would never have talked to the Doctor like that.  Most of the time in the Classic Series, people, companions, actually respected the doctor (well most of them anyway). 

 

Someone mentioned romance and all that in classic Who.  I remember when I was a teen, most of us who were Who fans suspected that between the episodes, unseen, the Doctor did have a relation or two.  There were a few stories in which the Doctor showed fondness for particular companions.  The biggest was the whole issue with Romana, especially the second Romana (who was Tom Baker's real life wife.) 

 

Pertwee's doctor had Jo Grant. 

 

Even Hartnell had a little sentimentality here and there (Watch The Aztecs, there's a sweet moment at the end.)

 

In this day and age of anything over 30 being objectionable, it's good to have an older Doctor now.  He's supposed to be an alien, not some frenetic goofy playboy.

[taanja]

 

Rory & River were a huge turn-off, so I've been mostly away the past couple years.  I am definitely back now.

 

And Amy.  Don't forget the ever annoying Amy Pond .She was a great turn-off for me and one of the reasons I never took a liking to the Matt Smith doctor.

 

I have found Clara to be a breath of fresh air! I always kind of saw her as a control freak so the Doctor calling her out on that was great!. I even kind of liked his little speech at the end when he said to the half faced dude--- (not paraphrasing) "5 foot 2 and crying ---you never stood a chance" or something like that. I laughed.

 

Anyone think the Doctor "chose" to be Scottish in honor of Amy? To my sorrow he seemed to have great affection for that companion so I wonder???

 

I have been watching Doctor Who since Jon Pertwee. I am down with the re-generation thing! I learned long ago not to become too attached to any actor on this show---be it the Doctor himself or one of the many companions. So I feel I am going to like this new doc just fine. And I already like his side-kick.  I know they clobbered me over the head with the ---the doctor is not your boyfriend schtick but man! I love the flirty stuff.

 

For those who were saying the Old Who and the companions had very different "vibes" --well I seem to remember The Doctor and Leela and her skimpy outfits and the way the doctor would watch her sometimes like "I am going to tap that"--- I used to imagine those two alone in the TARDIS.... Or anyone remember Romana? Yeah. Don't tell me the Doctor and Romana didn't flirt. That is one of my favorite memories of the Tom Baker years.

 

Anywho...I am in for the new season.

 

[ajsnaves]

I think Moffat is really good at individual episodes.  By and large the episodes he wrote when RTD was in charge were some of the best of Who.  I just don't think he is a good show runner, or at coming up with sweeping, season long arcs.  Maybe he is a good producer, but needs someone on the creative side to guide the show more.  Or maybe it is just time for him to move on, and give others what I am sure is a huge pain in the ass responsibility. 

 

I don't want to sound like I don't enjoy the show anymore. I do. Just as much now, if not more, than when I started watching in 2006.  But as so many people have pointed out, there are so many rehashes of old monsters, and old characters, that some fresh blood might be nice  I had the same issues with RTD near the end of his run too. But I am the eternal optimist.  Maybe they will turn things around this season.  And I did love Capalldi and his darkness.  Even when he called us pudding brains.  That's no worse than Nine calling us stupid apes.  The Doctor needs that dark, I'm better than you because I am smarter than you. swagger.  Clara I can take or leave going forward.  She doesn't annoy me too much.  She doesn't thrill me as most special person in whole universe either.  But I liked that she held her own when she was alone, and stood up for herself against Vastra.  It will be interesting to see how she plays against the older Twelve.  I am hoping for a more of a Donna-like vibe going forward.  They're just mates traveling through time and space.

[Dirtybubble]

I love the new doctor!  I feel like I can take him a little more seriously as a 2,000 yr old, time traveling, space alien.  I liked Matt Smith but one thing that bugged was the fact that he was so young!  And then you had the flirting almost romance between he and his companions (both Amy and Clara) or at least it seemed that way too me.  So this new, no nonsense kinda guy is just great.  I do believe the doctors need some compassion and sympathy in them, which I feel he portrayed perfectly but the when he said "I'm not your boyfriend." just felt so right for him. 

[MrWhyt]

  So far as the post-show went, who was that Natalie Morales (not from The Today Show, as even her Twitter bio makes clear) with the giant Joker-smile?

Natalie Morales was Meg on Trophy Wife and most importantly Wendy Watson on the short lived and mostly unseen Middleman.

 

Loved Capaldi in this, really brought the back the potential menace that was missing from the previous 2 doctors. His scene with Clara in the restaraunt was great.

[Llywela]

"He always looks different. But I always know it's him... Sometimes it's like I've lived a thousand lives in a thousand places. I'm born, I live, I die. And always, there's the Doctor. Always I'm running to save the Doctor again and again and again... I saw all of you. Eleven faces, all of them you. You're the eleventh Doctor."

I missed this quote earlier. It seems to me that if there's inconsistency in the presentation of Clara's timestream memory, this voiceover is the thing that's inconsistent with everything else and is the thing that needs to be re-examined, rather than us throwing out everything else because they don't match this one thing. Looking at the quote again, although it is Clara speaking it as a voiceover, it's actually an authorial voice using a narrative tool to tell us what the experience of being in the Doctor's timestream is like for her. It isn't a conscious memory that she is going to retain afterward - and it seems fairly clear, on the evidence of the last three episodes, that she doesn't. So we shouldn't look at this quote and use it as evidence that Clara, outside of the timestream once more, understands regeneration and all the Doctors intimately, because that isn't what it is saying - no more than we should listen to Rose's voiceover in Doomsday and believe that she actually is dead. It was simply a description of an out-of-body experience she was having in that moment, which she no longer fully recalls (probably just as well - if she remembered the lives and experiences of all her splinter selves, she'd go insane).