S03.E01: Electric Sheep

[paulvdb]

Quote

New Horizons, the crew deals with the aftermath of the Kaylon battle.

Premiere date: June 2, 2022

[MSterling]

I'm not a big fan of Charly at this point. The episode looks very nice, but it was almost too much "Look at all this production value!" with the battle scenes.

It was nice seeing Yaphit in the space suit.

And it's good to see the show back.

Edited June 2, 2022 by MSterling
added a thought

[AnimeMania]

They could have cut all of the Gordon flying around shooting droids scenes. I didn't really want to see much Gordon after he expressed his hatred of Isaac. The drone shooting was nothing but fluff and it also seemed unsafe to fly an experimental space vehicle so close to other space vehicles. Exploding drones at a space port is all kinds of irresponsible and the small pieces might get sucked into the engines of the other space vehicles. Just seeing how close the space vehicles were to each other and the weird maneuvers they were doing at the space port made me feel that there was no logic to how the place was being run and that this is not how space ports will be operated in the future. 

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

They could have cut all of the Gordon flying around shooting droids scenes. I didn't really want to see much Gordon after he expressed his hatred of Isaac. The drone shooting was nothing but fluff and it also seemed unsafe to fly an experimental space vehicle so close to other space vehicles. Exploding drones at a space port is all kinds of irresponsible and the small pieces might get sucked into the engines of the other space vehicles. Just seeing how close the space vehicles were to each other and the weird maneuvers they were doing at the space port made me feel that there was no logic to how the place was being run and that this is not how space ports will be operated in the future. 

I guess the special effects served as the B plot mirroring the A plot.
The opening (dream) space battle seemed hokey, but when it turned out to be a dream, its hokeyness became clever/a joke.
I agree, @AnimeMania, with the next CGI bit being questionably long.
But then, later, when eluding the Kaylon ship, the loading of all the torpedoes onto the shuttle turned out to be a surprise feint of the Orville's demise ( a surprise to me, at least, as well as to the Kaylons). 
So, the spaceship action mirroring plot-wise the death and resurrection of a robot does seem appropriate.
I guess I'll have to see what they do with the Pew Pew budget in the next episodes--that is, whether it's worthwhile.



The episode title, "Electric Sheep," sent me to refresh my memory about the source material, which I read about 15 years ago: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F#Synopsis
Heh, I'd missed throughout the previous seasons Ed Mercer's namesake from that Philip K. Dick novel, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.



Penny Johnson Jerald totally sold all of her lines; I'm just not sure the writing of Claire's character hangs together.
But maybe that was the point? 
Human emotions don't make sense?
I haven't rewatched the other seasons, but wasn't that a theme?

Edited June 2, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Colorado David]

awwww Norm...we miss ya buddy.

Music overload on this episode!!!! Most of the time I don't notice, but it was
so intrusive here it actually grated on my nerves. Great during action, but
I don't need it when ships are just flying around looking pretty (and man,
they upped the detail big time - well done production team.)

I thought the Charly plot a bit weak - she is the ONLY one good at this 4 dimensional
geometric talent??? I would think a LOT of the engineers would be good at this. 
Maybe she's the best, but can't be the ONLY one. She's not a different race
that is super-advanced in this field. (I guess one could pose she's a savant
with her talent, if it comes down to that.)

Why so much time spent on watching them remove plates on the side of the ship? I
get it's a CGI fest, but still it seemed excessive IMO.

The doctor did a great job, dramatic but not over the top. Riding right on the edge, but
she pulled it off. Bravo.

Isaac does some interesting acting with his hands. His fingers emote for him at certain
times, which is a nice detail. (And interesting as watchers, if we don't have a face
to look at, we start paying attention to posture, nods, hands, etc for emotional
clues.) 

A good start! Keep em coming.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Colorado David
fixing non pc term

[Boofish]

I waited a long time for this premier only to be subjected to Dr. Finn's horrid children. I was not a fan of this episode. Hopefully throughout the rest of the season they are reduced to seat fillers.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Boofish

[shapeshifter]

20 minutes ago, Boofish said:

I waited a long time for this premier only to be subjected to Dr. Finn's horrid children. I was not a fan of this episode. Hopefully throughout the rest of the season they are reduced to sit fillers.

I was surprised at how much Finn's sons' scenes were integral to the episode's story, and also surprised at how well they pulled it off. I'm sure some credit for that is owed to directing and camera blocking.
And I found the children's perspectives on Isaac to be more believable than those of the various adults.
But, as we say, "mileage varies."

8 hours ago, MSterling said:

I'm not a big fan of Charly at this point.

I too did not find the new character of Charly to be very likeable, but I also thought it was one of the better introductions of a new character into a series.

[Chaos Theory]

Wow.   You can't help comparing this to TNG at times and how Star Trek wrote Data.  If Star Trek had written Data like this even a little fans would have gone crazy and yet Isaac as a character is fascinating.  "Electric Sheep" is a beautiful exploration of hatred, self loathing, and ultimately forgiveness. And all done with an Android who supposedly can't feel any of those.  And yet the ending with Claire yelling at him trying to convince him logically that suicide is never the answer was extremely well done.   

Loved how Marcus played a heavy part of the show.  I have always said that one of the things I really like about the show is how human all the humans are.  The kids act like kids and the adults act like kids as well at times.  The fact that Claire has children isn't something that isn't important to her character and the fact that Isaac really did betray her family is very important to their story as well as his.

Not a big fan of Charly at this point but I am not sure we are supposed to be.   She is the unknown on a crew that is mostly known.  She is also the one who seems to be the most angsty and standoffish with a crew  that is mostly already jelling.  That being said I get her reasons for not being cool with Isaac and I like the idea that she might never be but after talking to Marcus helped Isaac anyway.  Not for Isaac but for Marcus and maybe because she didn't want to be "that person."  

Awesome opening episode after a long hiatus.  

Edited June 2, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[Featherhat]

Yay, The Orville is back. I didn't adore this episode but I'm glad it's finally premiering. With spiffy new credits. 

Very interesting exploration with Isaac. I don't actually blame most the crew for not forgiving him. Isaac was an active part of the attempted genocide for years, even if he did switch sides. It did feel heavy handed though. Kelly saying they have to nip this in the bud was funny considering the crew has been openly, actively shunning him for months without either her or Ed noticing. 

 I'm not sure we're supposed to like the abrasive interloper who says things like "embrace the masochism and stay angry" at least I hope not or Seth doesn't know fandom or TV watchers in general at all but I generally like Anne Winters well enough, so we'll see what happens. 

[tennisgurl]

Its great to have this show back after such a long time, this was certainly an interesting episode to start the new season with. Instead of jumping head first into action and seeing what the next big story would be, we spent a lot of time on the aftermath of the Kaylon attacks. Things are rough between the crew and Isaac, and I can certainly understand why. He was a part of a plan to committ mass murder which got a lot of people killed, even if he did end up switching sides, I can imagine seeing him around would be rough for some people, even if people like Charly are taking things too far. Isaac did genuinely help to save everyone and that should certainly count for something, but I think she actually made a decent point when she was talking to Marcus about how people just need someone to blame in the face of tragedy. Isaac is not the person who was behind everything the Kaylons did, but he's there and easy to blame.

I don't like Charley but I don't think we're supposed to right now. I am guessing that she will end up growing and putting her hatred behind her, as she doesn't seem totally awful, but Mercer really nailed it when he said that she was acting like she had a monopoly on grief. Having Marcus be the person most against Isaac being around does make sense, its understandable he feels personally betrayed by someone he trusted and he's lashing out. He's not as young as Ty so he cant easily move on like he can, but he isn't an adult and emotionally mature enough to navigate these complicated emotions, so he's stuck on being angry. Isaac's inability to fully understand feelings was explored in a really interesting way, he keeps saying that he doesn't have emotions the way living species do, but he clearly feels some kind of way about Claire and everything that has happened, or else he never would have switched sides. He's a really fascinating character and I liked how much they explored him and what he really feels here.

You can certainly tell that their budget has drastically increased this season. Not only did we have more alien crew members with more elaborate designs, we spent a LOT of time in space showing off all of those pretty shots of space and the new ships, which I am fine with as long as they don't go too overboard with it in the future. Get all of that "look at the cool stuff we can do now" out of the way, have fun, then get back to the plot. It really did look nice though, very epic. 

A more somber episode as far as this show goes, but I thought it was a thoughtful coda to all of the excitement of the last season.

[greekmom]

OMG!!!! What an opening with episode 1. I was on the edge of my seat. I have to admit that this is way better than anything Trek is putting out right now.

I agree with the poster above, Mercer said it best to Charley about her having a monopolization on grief. Girl is walking around with a BIG chip on her shoulder.  I understand her not wanting to deal with Issac but her out right hate is over the top.  I don't think even anyone on Voyager outright hated 7 of 9 due to her being with the Borg.  They hated her superior attitude but some crew member must have had a friend, family, whatever at Wolf 359 who died in that battle but no one outright refused to work with her (but my memory could be faulty).  I also honestly thought Gordon was setting her up with the whole "i can't deal with Issac on the bridge" speech to find out exactly who hates on Issac.

I knew Marcus was the one who spray painted 'murderer' on the wall.  I wouldn't see a crew member doing that.

RIP Norm. 

I hope the Doctor is giving some of that grief therapy to the rest of the crew.

[shapeshifter]

3 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Mercer said it best to Charley about her having a monopolization on grief. Girl is walking around with a BIG chip on her shoulder.  I understand her not wanting to deal with Issac but her out right hate is over the top. 

That was a great line! 
Maybe with the potential of becoming iconic.
I wonder if Charley is able to hate Isaac so much because he has no feelings?

[Bort]

Yeah, I was having Star Trek The Motion Picture flashbacks with the overkill on the exterior “look at our special effects budget!” shots. I did think there was a point to the target practice scene as it illustrated that Charly has some sort of special ability with whatever whosits, because I immediately thought of her when they realized what they needed to jump start Isaac back up.

Too much of Claire’s kids by the way. The kids-heavy episodes have always been my least favorites.

[phalange]

This was more serious than previous seasons, but it makes sense with the episode's heavy subject matter. I sympathized with both Isaac and with the crew who don't want him aboard, like Charly. She clearly didn't want to help Isaac but it was good of her to put that aside and help bring Isaac back for Marcus' sake. And of course Claire has very complicated emotions about Isaac given their history and I liked the scenes of her revisiting their past interactions, like the banana and their restaurant date. If she's the only psychiatrist on board, which seems to be the case, she's also the one who has to help 300 other people deal with their trauma, so that's a lot for her to deal with on top of her own feelings.

You can tell the special effects budget went way up. The pteradon (?) fighter jet that Gordon drove looks pretty cool and the shuttles look they got an upgrade, too. Appreciate the longer run time as well. They're more like weekly mini-movies this way. 

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, Colorado David said:

Music overload on this episode!!!! Most of the time I don't notice, but it was
so intrusive here it actually grated on my nerves.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one getting annoyed.  They really need to balance the sound out - I kept having to turn the volume up for dialog or down for the music. 

OK, yeah, they have a good budget for CGI.  But all that time with the new fighter jet and the "let's change a doo dad on the exterior of the ship" seemed to be a big waste of time.  I loved the special effects on the woman in bed with Lamar!  Probably one of the most inventive alien make up jobs I've seen.  I wonder how much of that was real and how much was CGI.   Does anyone know who the actress is?  The voice was very familiar. 

I was actually ok with Issac "dying", as I really don't want the whole season to revolve around him and people hating him for what happened last season.  I just think that's going to get old very fast.  But I knew he was in this season, and therefore would be revived.  I honestly thought we were going to get an "Issac saves the day" moment to redeem him - glad they didn't go there.

I think the show is off to a good start for the season.  Looking forward to more.

[Guest]

I wanted to like this episode a lot more than I did. I don’t have a problem with the story choices but with the execution and pacing. Charly, Gordon, and Marcus weren’t wrong but they turned it up to 11 right off the bat to give Isaac a reason to commit suicide. 

I think it would have been a lot better if they would have had an episode where the tension simmers and Isaac killed himself at the end of the first episode or in the second episode. That way they could have established Charly as a character outside of her feelings toward Isaac. She’s giving me early Wesley Crusher vibes which is never a good sign. It feels like she stepped right out of a teen drama like Pretty Little Liars. 

Eta: While watching the show I found myself wondering if Seth was dating the actress that plays Charly because something in how she was treated reminded me a lot of how Alara was treated in the pilot. A quick google search confirmed that they are dating and it just makes me feel icky. 

[thuganomics85]

The Orville and finally returned and it definitely looks like it/Seth is taking advantage of being on Hulu with all of the fancy visual effects and longer than network running time.  It will probably be a better fit in the long run (especially since it is clear it's move passed the comedic elements from the first season and is more straight-up sci-fi/Star Trek homage now), but I do think they went a little overboard at times.  In particular, the scene of Gordon taking on those drones was so long that I really thought it was a set-up for something crazy to go down, but, nope, it was just to show off the cool new fighter jet.

Glad that they are addressing that not every one in the crew would be happy about Isaac being reinstated.  While him being an A.I. does make it different than norm and I do think he sincerely is an ally now, his act of betrayal did cause the death of hundreds if not thousands, and that is not going to be something that can easily be walked back.  Wasn't expecting the suicide angle though, but I guess that falls in line with the classic Trek-like "addressing social and real life issues" that this show has always been known to emulate as well.

Charly isn't exactly endearing so far, but I do think it was a pretty solid introduction as far as new characters go.  It makes sense that she would hold a grudge against Isaac and she probably should still going forward, but I hope she gets more to do besides that and back-talking Mercer in ways that I kind of feel like would have gotten her into way more trouble if he wasn't as easygoing and emphatic as he is.

Not enough Bortus this go around.

Still think Penny Johnson Jerald is the strongest performer here.

RIP, Norm MacDonald.  Not sure how many episodes he was able to voice before his passing, so I wonder how that will be addressed with Yaphit in the future.

[chitowngirl]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

RIP, Norm MacDonald.  Not sure how many episodes he was able to voice before his passing, so I wonder how that will be addressed with Yaphit in the future.

They were probably done filming when Norm passed in November 2021. Yaphit could have a regeneration of sorts and then have another voice…

[chaifan]

30 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

They were probably done filming when Norm passed in November 2021. Yaphit could have a regeneration of sorts and then have another voice…

I think it would be good if they did something like that instead of killing off the character.   A fun idea would be that his species changes genders every X years, a natural hormonal thing, sort of his species' equivalent of puberty or menopause, and then change the voice to a woman's.  Still have him be as horny as ever, but just with a woman's voice. 

I have to wonder if Norm had any input as to what would happen with the character when he passed. 

[Zaffy]

I really enjoyed the episode, even if they overdid it a bit with showing off everything (special effects, music, ships).
I found the topic very interesting and Isaac's suicide scene almost hit me like the one from Battlestar Galactica.
I really like the actors playing Fin's children, and the last scene/session between the Doc and Isaac was amazing.

I cannot stand of Charlie, because the actress is horrible. Horrible. Her bad acting kept distracting me.
I hope she was just nervous and this will get better with time.

Welcome back Orville! :)

[Welshman in Ca]

I used to love this because it was different from all the serious stuff but from what I've been reading it's now taking itself seriously & lost some of the funny elements. Now I'm not sure I want to watch 😒

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm glad to have the show back, but this episode missed the mark for me on a few fronts.

Too little Bortus. Like if this was my first episode with the show, I would have thought that a) he had no personality and b) he was not the third in command. Among the characters who got more lines in this episode (I think): both Marcus and Ty, Lamarr's date, and Yaphet.

Ed and Kelly would have to be morons to not realize until someone literally painted "Murderer" in Isaac's lab that a lot of the crew were uncomfortable with Isaac being on board after his betrayal/his people nearly wiping out the Union.

Taking on the topic of suicide is somewhat brave. But I don't think the episode did it all that well. I think there was a real miss to not talk about the ethics of bringing Isaac back. It is at least arguably messed up to forcibly bring someone back from the dead when they have made an educated, non-coerced choice to die. And in this particular case, Ed and company did not factor in a) a lot of the crew did want Isaac at least gone, if not dead and b) the Union might have a position on whether it was right to bring Isaac back from the dead.

I think it would have been a way more powerful episode if the ship actually had to deal with having driven a member to suicide, and the loss that that would have represented.

I am glad that they didn't revive Isaac to help them survive the Caylon attack, though.

I also thought the Orville painted themselves in a corner by making the Caylon as powerful as they are. It's been a while since I watched the last few episodes of last season, but I don't know if there's a good explanation why the Caylon haven't regrouped and eliminated the Union other than "well then the story wouldn't happen."

I also think Charlie is so far an annoying character and am doubtful about the skills of the actress. I'll have to handwave the four-dimensional geometry stuff, and that she still refused a direct order. Which is probably one Mercer should not have given.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[Ceindreadh]

18 hours ago, greekmom said:

I agree with the poster above, Mercer said it best to Charley about her having a monopolization on grief. Girl is walking around with a BIG chip on her shoulder.  I understand her not wanting to deal with Issac but her out right hate is over the top.  I don't think even anyone on Voyager outright hated 7 of 9 due to her being with the Borg.  They hated her superior attitude but some crew member must have had a friend, family, whatever at Wolf 359 who died in that battle but no one outright refused to work with her (but my memory could be faulty).  I also honestly thought Gordon was setting her up with the whole "i can't deal with Issac on the bridge" speech to find out exactly who hates on Issac.

Seven's situation on Voyager was somewhat different in that she was kidnapped as a child and assimilated into the Borg collective.  She was a foot soldier forced to fight rather than a sleeper agent. 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Taking on the topic of suicide is somewhat brave. But I don't think the episode did it all that well. I think there was a real miss to not talk about the ethics of bringing Isaac back. It is at least arguably messed up to forcibly bring someone back from the dead when they have made an educated, non-coerced choice to die. And in this particular case, Ed and company did not factor in a) a lot of the crew did want Isaac at least gone, if not dead and b) the Union might have a position on whether it was right to bring Isaac back from the dead.

Yes!  I wish that they'd had somebody argue whether they had the right to overturn Isaac's wishes and bodily autonomy.  The closest thing we got to it was John's girlfriend but that was before they knew bringing Isaac back was a possibility. 

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I wish that they'd had somebody argue whether they had the right to overturn Isaac's wishes and bodily autonomy.  The closest thing we got to it was John's girlfriend but that was before they knew bringing Isaac back was a possibility. 

I thought John's girlfriend adequately covered the right-to-die issue. 🤷‍♀️
Plus, it seemed Isaac had left a back door open. 🤷‍♀️
Maybe if the show goes on for another season they could cover the right to die for someone suffering from an incurable illness, but I think one of these type of episodes is enough for one season.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Putting aside the right to die part, there's also the notion that they don't fundamentally know what rebooting Isaac would do. Would he be like he was with all the experiences aboard the Orville up to the time of his death? Would it restore him to "all humans must die" factory settings? Would it signal other Caylons that he was rebooted and where he was?

At least have that debate before shortcutting and having super-genius Charlie reboot him because a teenager's guilty that he bullied Isaac to death. They were so concerned with could they do it to stop and think should they do it, to paraphrase Jurassic Park.

Edited June 3, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[jah1986]

I am so happy to have this show back in my life. But I really did not love this episode. Like others, I do not like Charly at this point, maybe I'll warm up to her as the season progresses. I've never cared for Claire's children and that hasn't changed. I still love Penny Johnson Jerrald and will watch her in just about anything, still love her Cassidy Yates from DS9.

Almost too little of the Captain, but he totally bought it when he told Charly she did not have the monopoly on grief and that everyone had lost someone.

I'm happy that the show isn't constrained to a 43 minute time block, but at times the show "felt" long, like they were just filling time and that was with all the time wasted on Gordon flying around in his new ship. 

Really looking forward to the rest of this season.

[blueray]

I'm glad the Orville is back. But wow what a depressing episode.

I feel like more people should have acknowledged  that it was Isaac's people that killed everyone, not him. I don't recall him directly killing anyone and he did save Ty. Yes, he did lie to them about his people but he didn't really know exactly what they were going to do. And did switch sides. It's been a while since I saw season 2 so I felt like I was missing something. Didn't he return to work right after?

Anyhow, while I like Isaac I was kind of hoping they didn't cop out and did leave him dead. It would have been better story telling. It was good to see the different characters deal with it. Though I will say, Ed seemed oblivious It seemed pretty obviously why Isaac did it, despite him continuing to say "he doesn't feel" a part of him does in his own way. 

Charlie (?) I think was her name, was annoying. I wish they didn't focus so much on her. I guess she's a major character? But I felt like she was just taking up screen time from everyone else.

Overall, I liked this episode but wow that was a sad episode. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by blueray

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, blueray said:

I feel like more people should have acknowledged  that it was Isaac's people that killed everyone, not him. I don't recall him directly killing anyone and he did save Ty. Yes, he did lie to them about his people but he didn't really know exactly what they were going to do. And did switch sides. It's been a while since I saw season 2 so I felt like I was missing something. Didn't he return to work right after?

It has been a while since I watched S2 too, but I think the sentiment of the crew, if anything, is understated.

Isaac did not as far as I remember personally kill any Union members. But he lived among them for a year and a half under the guise of being an ambassador from the Caylon, when in reality he was more of a spy. He was 100 percent down with the "Kill the meatbags" agenda, and was cool with the takeover of the Orville and his crewmates being killed. Thank Avis he had boned Claire and bonded some with her kids, or else he probably wouldn't have switched sides.

And even so, there's no telling that he wouldn't just arbitrarily switch sides again, either because his internal logic told him it was once again more logical to kill all meatbags or because an outside force controls him or any number of things.

In a way, even assuming he bloodlessly betrayed the crew, that is worse than a random Caylon foot soldier who killed a bunch of humans not having had a chance to see meatbags as individuals.

That is one thing I do appreciate about the Orville: the crew aren't the super-enlightened, lawful good types that make up most of Trek, Not that there's anything wrong with being lawful good. It's just nice to have a change of pace. But to take the corresponding situation in Trek, nobody on the Enterprise had an issue serving under ol' Locutus of Borg, and few in Starfleet besides Benjamin Sisko seemingly resented him.

[Mr. Sparkle]

16 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not enough Bortus this go around.

Still think Penny Johnson Jerald is the strongest performer here.

Double agree! 

[kay1864]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:31 AM, AnimeMania said:

and it also seemed unsafe to fly an experimental space vehicle so close to other space vehicles.

Same… they don’t have training grounds in space for these kinds of test runs??

[Commando Cody]

Is the new cast member dating Seth McFarlane? I'm just curious because she was an unnecessary addition to the cast.  She wasn't a very good actor, plus no one likes an angry bitch. First thing out of the gate she's bitching at Isaac.  This was not a good introduction to her character. Then by some twist of fate, she's the only one who can save him.  It kept my enjoyment of the new episode at a minimum.

I suddenly remembered before the premier, that Norm MacDonald was part of this cast. It made me sad to think about it. 

[kay1864]

On 6/2/2022 at 3:53 PM, Featherhat said:

I don't actually blame most the crew for not forgiving him. Isaac was an active part of the attempted genocide for years, even if he did switch sides

I rewatched the last few S2 episodes that involved Isaac. This resentment should have been in those, but it’s like “all was forgiven”. Isaac was even at Yaphit’s ceremony when he got the sapphire star!

Really inconsistent. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

Is the new cast member dating Seth McFarlane? I'm just curious because she was an unnecessary addition to the cast.  She wasn't a very good actor, plus no one likes an angry bitch. First thing out of the gate she's bitching at Isaac.  This was not a good introduction to her character. Then by some twist of fate, she's the only one who can save him.  It kept my enjoyment of the new episode at a minimum.

I suddenly remembered before the premier, that Norm MacDonald was part of this cast. It made me sad to think about it. 

Apparently she is dating Seth. I don't think the show needed another character at this time, really, since they probably won't get the group together for another season.

By the way, I do like an 'angry bitch'. If someone is called an 'angry bitch' it is usually because they are challenging the norm and making someone uncomfortable. I may not always agree with them, but I like them for it. So, someone likes an 'angry bitch'.

[redpencil]

I'm glad to have this show back, but I found that episode somewhat tedious to get through. I kept thinking, just get on with it already and move to new storylines. I hope we can now move away from the focus on Isaac going forward now that we spent an entire (long) episode on it. A few scenes here or there is fine, but I just don't like the character enough (or care about his relationship with Claire and her kids enough) for it to continue to be a main storyline. Let's move on.

[DoctorAtomic]

On 6/2/2022 at 2:50 PM, tennisgurl said:

I am guessing that she will end up growing and putting her hatred behind her, as she doesn't seem totally awful, but Mercer really nailed it when he said that she was acting like she had a monopoly on grief.

I really liked that because Ed let her vent previously, and then was basically telling her to act like adult. Yes, you're angry, confused; we all are. I think it was important she refused his order and was relieved. 

It's kind of odd that Ed and Kelly were largely supporting characters in the episode, but the plot to explore the aftermath was interesting. I liked that no one was really debating the personhood of Isaac and just saying he killed himself, rather than 45 minutes of 'can a robot kill himself'. Seth probably assumed we all saw the episode of Picard arguing Data's case, so there's no need to revisit that theme. 

I also liked the sexy alien telling John that everyone knows he's a whore. But, thoughtful. He knew to have the candy for her. 

I do take the point about body autonomy, but to be fair to the show, Claire did argue against that in her session with Isaac. So the show did acknowledge it. Clearly there was a point of view, but it was addressed. 

I enjoyed it. After so long of a hiatus, it's the right direction for the plot, but I'd like to see a good adventure next week.

I liked Ed's tactic with the torpedoes. iirc, they pulled a similar rope a dope in S1 where they only had a few and used them to accelerate the ship or something like that. 

[kay1864]

20 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I really thought it was a set-up for something crazy to go down, but, nope, it was just to show off the cool new fighter jet.

Not to mention we apparently needed Bortus to help us count to 3 🙄

[Quickbeam]

I just didn’t like this episode at all. Isaac is my least favorite cast member and the show seemed to drag. I agree with the upthread comment about this feeling like first Trek movie…lots of loving long shots of the craft. 
 

So great to hear Norm again. What a loss.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Quickbeam
Typo

[kay1864]

- Engineering now has a Galaxy Quest beryllium sphere!

- Anyone else noticed that Isaac’s costume has changed?

Edited June 4, 2022 by kay1864

[Ms Lark]

6 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

Is the new cast member dating Seth McFarlane?

I sensed there was something in Seth's heart-to-heart talks with Charly/Anne. "What the hell, is he shagging this one, too?" Answer: Yep. It really draws focus away from the character and the show. Looks like she's wearing Alana/Sage's old ill-fitting costume, too.

When will Seth learn you don't shag your employees? 🙄 Wonder how long this will last? What a creep.

That said, I do like the rest of the cast. The Doctor, Isaac (in spite of), and Bortus especially. We'll see. I can always FF through Capt/Charly chats.

[Welshman in Ca]

22 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

I used to love this because it was different from all the serious stuff but from what I've been reading it's now taking itself seriously & lost some of the funny elements. Now I'm not sure I want to watch 😒

Okay so I watched it & damn was that depressing. What happened to the laughs? I didn't even smile to myself never mind laugh out loud as in previous seasons, seemed more like a star trek spin off than a stand alone show. I'll give it one more try but if there's no laughs I'm out & that would be sad.

[Mr. Sparkle]

31 minutes ago, Welshman in Ca said:

Okay so I watched it & damn was that depressing. What happened to the laughs? I didn't even smile to myself never mind laugh out loud as in previous seasons, seemed more like a star trek spin off than a stand alone show. I'll give it one more try but if there's no laughs I'm out & that would be sad.

This was definitely one of the most depressing episode of the entire series. I'm not going to pretend like I'm not sticking it out to the end, but I hope they keep a good portion of the comedic elements. 

[Zaffy]

9 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

I sensed there was something in Seth's heart-to-heart talks with Charly/Anne. "What the hell, is he shagging this one, too?" Answer: Yep. It really draws focus away from the character and the show. Looks like she's wearing Alana/Sage's old ill-fitting costume, too.

When will Seth learn you don't shag your employees? 🙄 Wonder how long this will last? What a creep.

Geez... can he at least have love interests that can actually ACT? She is a terrible terrible actress...

[SmithW6079]

15 hours ago, kay1864 said:

- Engineering now has a Galaxy Quest beryllium sphere!

- Anyone else noticed that Isaac’s costume has changed?

Thank you! I thought I was imagining it. Maybe he was also refitted while the Orville was in space dock.

Does Isaac have free will? Did he have it before? He was a machine programmed by Kaylon Prime to perform a function. When they felt he had completed it, they turned him off. They only turned him back on at the crew's request.

After he was rebooted, he started to act contrary to his programming and turned against his own people to save the humans. 

I was a little disappointed that the crew turned him back on after he "committed suicide." I hate when shows do something shocking like that but reverse it by episode's end.

I thought Gordon telling Charley he was uncomfortable with Isaac was a way for him to ferret out information to see if she was behind any sort of organized campaign against Isaac. After all, in one of the previous seasons, he turns in an old friend for terrorism against the Krill.

I expected there to be an accident when Gordon was testing the new fighter that Charley would then blame on Isaac. The same with all the time wasted on the hull plating or whatever they were doing.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Well that took a turn. I didn't like the notion of considering Isaac as having been "alive" or "dead." Or that bullying and emotional abuse aren't real problems and but if they are the target just needs to find a way to wait it out. I think the only way time would be the solution to everything is if everyone had an infinite amount of it.

The CGI was spectacular though. Fox was selling this show short and Seth did the right thing by leaving them. However, I hope with his new backing he's not planning to turn this into basically another Star Trek show. The tongue-in-cheek, lowkey satirical approach to the Star Trek/Star Wars types of science fiction productions was what initially attracted me to The Orville.

Quote

the Pew Pew budget

Hee.

Quote

this is way better than anything Trek is putting out right now.

Star Trek: Strange New Worlds would like to have a word.

Quote

If she's the only psychiatrist on board, which seems to be the case, she's also the one who has to help 300 other people deal with their trauma, so that's a lot for her to deal with on top of her own feelings.

Someone on reddit made what I thought was a valid point that Claire doing double-duty as the ship's psychiatrist/therapist as well as serving as their regular medical doctor doesn't make sense. The ST shows came to understand that those roles are important enough to need two separate people handling them. Especially on a ship with as large and diverse a crew as the Orville.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, Welshman in Ca said:

Okay so I watched it & damn was that depressing. What happened to the laughs? I didn't even smile to myself never mind laugh out loud as in previous seasons, seemed more like a star trek spin off than a stand alone show. I'll give it one more try but if there's no laughs I'm out & that would be sad.

5 hours ago, Superclam said:

This was definitely one of the most depressing episode of the entire series. I'm not going to pretend like I'm not sticking it out to the end, but I hope they keep a good portion of the comedic elements. 

That's missing the point, in my opinion. Seth has repeatedly said that this was never supposed to be a laugh-out-loud comedy like Family Guy. It was a gross miscalculation on FOX's part to market it as such. As he put it, he had always intended for it to be a "sci-fi/drama cake with comedy frosting," although I would say that it's really more of a comedy ganache.He means for it to be an homage to Star Trek: The Next Generation in particular, not a parody of it. That's why he's been gradually toning down the overt comedy (something that he started doing in Season 2), and now that Hulu has given him the freedom to tell stories on a more adult level than he could on FOX, he's deliberately amping up the sci-fi and drama and giving the comedy a more subtle, natural, and organic role as opposed to making the whole show a constant yukfest that overrelies on the sort of puerile toilet humor that most of us outgrew by the time we'd finished puberty. I, for one, applaud him for the new direction he's taken the show in.

Edited June 4, 2022 by legaleagle53

[benteen]

Welcome back, Orville! I can't believe it's been three years. I really enjoyed this episode. I'm glad to see they have the increased budget and time now for each episode and it shows. It's nice to see Seyh do something he's passionate about instead of just collecting a paycheck like he has for the last decade with Family Guy.

Definitely a heavy episode but I liked how everything wasn't back to normal like it would have been on Star Trek. The mood against Isaac was dark but realistic and played out that way. I liked Charlie's character. She added some tension to the cast. This episode reminded me of a TNG episode where only Worf could save a Romulan but this one was better.

I thought the kid playing Marcus did a pretty good job. 

RIP, Norm. Was happy to hear his voice.

Edited June 4, 2022 by benteen

[call me ishmael]

On 6/2/2022 at 1:50 PM, tennisgurl said:

I can imagine seeing him around would be rough for some people, even if people like Charly are taking things too far. Isaac did genuinely help to save everyone and that should certainly count for something, but I think she actually made a decent point when she was talking to Marcus about how people just need someone to blame in the face of tragedy. Isaac is not the person who was behind everything the Kaylons did, but he's there and easy to blame.

I thought that what was interesting about that comment was that she was talking about Marcus blaming himself for Isaac’s decision (where it does seem that Marcus had good reason for thinking that he had pushed Isaac over the edge).  She would never at this point apply it to the issue you are pointing out.  It will be interesting if she ever reaches that point.

[Chicago Redshirt]

The writers were kind of in a no-win scenario when they decided to write an episode about suicide. Write it without/with too little comic relief and they risk alienating fans who like the show for its lighter approach. Write it with too much comic relief, and it undermines a serious subject or creates tonal whiplash, plus alienating those of us who have contemplated suicide, or known people who contemplated suicide or actually committed suicide

29 minutes ago, benteen said:

Definitely a heavy episode but I liked how everything wasn't back to normal like it would have been on Star Trek. The mood against Isaac was dark but realistic and played out that way. I liked Charlie's character. She added some tension to the cast. This episode reminded me of a TNG episode where only Worf could save a Romulan but this one was better.

.I'd argue that bringing Isaac back from the dead is essentially restoring things back to normal. It remains to be seen if future episodes build on the issues  raised by this episode (distrust/hatred of Isaac being widespread among the crew, Isaac having developed proto-emotions strong enough to lead him to suicide, the ethical dimensions of restoring Isaac knowing he intended to die) in a meaningful way.

For the most part, TNG and most non-DS9 Trek was in a different era/style of TV writing, with most episodes having few connections to the ones that came before or after. The closest analogy to this was Picard being assimilated by the Borg. It seems at least somewhat unrealistic that Picard's retention of his place on the Enterprise would be as smooth and as unquestioned as it was.  

I would say the  aspect of the TNG episode you were referring to, "The Enemy," was better in that the characters actually stood by their ethics for meaningful reasons. Picard refused to give Worf an order that would ask Worf to violate his ethical code, and Worf refused to violate his ethical code because someone asked him to. Here, Mercer gave Charly a direct order to take on an act that she had an ethical disagreement with, and Charlie abandoned her reasonable ethical position that restoring the killer robot doesn't make sense because a teenager's fee-fees made him a sad panda. I tend to doubt that Charly will face consequences for refusing a direct order, or that Ed will face consequences for giving an order to a crewmember that is arguably unethical. 

[Yeah No]

I get it that suicide is a heavy subject and Seth wanted to go in a more serious direction, but this was just way overboard in the opposite direction from the earlier seasons.  He doesn't have to make it a spoof or a comedy but this was just tedious and draggy to the point of having to pry my eyes open and wishing they would just get on with things.  The action scenes were gratuitous and just for show, not even integrated into the plot.  And I agree with those that felt like the entire episode was being stretched out to fill up the extra airtime.  There were episodes in earlier seasons that featured more action and less comedy that were much better done than this one.  He wanted it to be like an exciting action packed sci fi movie tackling serious sensitive subjects but the different parts in this case don't gel together very well.  I really hope the next episode rights itself from a lot of this stuff because if not I'm not going to love this show that much anymore.  And that's regrettable.  So many of my favorite shows have gone downhill since the pandemic and I REALLY didn't want this one to be one of them.   Like others have said, it's not even about the choice of plot or anything but the clunky timing, draggy length and the overkill with special effects, plus the loud music. 

[Ottis]

Is it irony that when the show comes back renamed “new horizons,” that the plot is one of the most hackneyed, cliched plots in sci-fi?

And agree with others, what the hell was up with the whimsical music? It sounded like a pirate movie.

I had to start this ep 4 times to finish it. Not a good sign.

Miss you, Norm.