S06.E12: Katoby

[CountryGirl]

3 hours ago, mishap said:

So are there  fans of this show who are happy that Kate is happy?   

I am likely at a table for one, maybe a bistro table LOL, but yes, I am genuinely happy that Kate has found love and happiness again. Just as I can be happy for Toby moving on and finding love and happiness as well. If for no other reason than the fact that parents who are happy tend to make for happier kids and we have seen that in the FF, Hailey not featured as much, but she was so happy to see Philip propose along with Jack, and it's clear she and Jack like him, and we see Jack happy and well-adjusted as an adult. I hope we will get to see more of Hailee in the future, even just a few more scenes.

There are times when Kate has really ticked me off, but what Pearson hasn't? Maybe Annie hasn't (we'd have to actually see her to tell) but pretty much the rest have annoyed me at some point or another. But if I stopped watching because I have occasional dislike for characters, more so for their actions, I would probably not watch much, if any, TV at all. I appreciate that these characters are very human, fallible and flawed just like people in everyday life. 

It really goes back to me feeling a bit of a connection with these characters. I get  attached with certain shows (Parenthood was another one), this one included, as crazy as that sounds, and so because of that I want to see them find love and happiness, I want to see growth as well, their two steps forward, and yes, their two steps back. 

The fact remains that Kate is happy and married and thankfully, alive, in the future, even though it might feel for some that Kate is undeserving of anything good in the future because of some of her admittedly problematic actions and attitude in the past. Toby is deserving as well, despite him having some missteps.  I am happy for both of them and I cannot agree that someone who was wrong in the past, who hurt others, and I'm not taking about crimes (murder, rape, child abuse, et al), is somehow unlovable and not deserving of happiness. 

Along those lines, as engaging and lively and fun, and yes, sometimes frustrating as it has been to have all the dialogue about Kate and Toby, I'm really ready to move on from that type of dialogue because it's all a moot point for me now and what more can I say that hasn't already been said? The marriage is over, they have moved on, and are happy in the new lives and relationships and with the show in the home stretch, that's what I want to focus on going forward.

For all that the show, its characters and storylines, have made me shake my first, roll my eyes, and laugh at the sheer "did they really do that?" WTFery, I really will miss Tuesday nights with the Pearson clan as I did with the Bravermans.  

[Shermie]

9 hours ago, bybrandy said:

You haven't been to the same nursing homes I've been to.

They might be obese there, but they’re probably not as elderly as they look. My point was mainly that obese people don’t typically live long; if they end up in a nursing home, they’re often younger than average. And yes, I know there are a few obese 90-year-olds, but they’re the exception.

9 hours ago, LexieLily said:

When the lady gave Kate her nameplate for her classroom when she got the supervisor position I thought it said Mrs. Pearson-Damon?

I saw that too. It might be that she went by Pearson-Damon socially but legally stayed with Pearson. Keeps it simple when divorcing, I guess. 

3 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

They’ll have to switch to “Philate.”

So they’re stamp collectors?

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I think the main reason for Hailey and the adoption storyline was because the writers needed a plot line for K & T that season. 

Dealing with a blind baby and job loss isn’t enough plot drama for one couple?

44 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I loved that the name plate had Kate's name in Braille also. It was a nice touch.

Me too. Some prop maker had to create that very specific item for 2 seconds of airtime that half the viewers didn’t notice.

I liked Philip too, and I don’t remember why he was called Philip Mean Jerk. What did he do to warrant that long-standing nickname here?

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Me too. Some prop maker had to create that very specific item for 2 seconds of airtime that half the viewers didn’t notice.

I liked Philip too, and I don’t remember why he was called Philip Mean Jerk. What did he do to warrant that long-standing nickname here?

The only thing that sticks out in my memory is their first meeting, where Kate showed up late to work on her first day (which SMH at Kate) and he was not amused and let her know it and took the time to point out that he was not in favor of the hiring decision and that there were other, more qualified candidates.

I'm drawing a blank on other specific interactions beyond Philip being immune (for a while anyway LOL) to the Pearson charm.

[ams1001]

14 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I liked Philip too, and I don’t remember why he was called Philip Mean Jerk. What did he do to warrant that long-standing nickname here?

That's how he was listed in Kate's phone earlier in the season.

9 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I'm drawing a blank on other specific interactions beyond Philip being immune (for a while anyway LOL) to the Pearson charm.

The other thing was the way he talked to his girlfriend when Kate overhears him dumping her in his office, but I don't remember if that was before or after we saw his name on her phone screen.

Edit: both were in the Challenger episode, when he texts her to come in for an "emergency" at the school, we see her phone screen. She gets there and overhears the breakup before getting her surprise birthday song.

Edited April 14, 2022 by ams1001

[cameron]

48 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Poor Rebecca. She had a hard enuf time remembering Philip's name.

 

Thanks, but see, I don't even remember the FF where Jack's daughter (Hope?) is born. 

Think that is actually Hailey working in the art gallery.

[CountryGirl]

Here are the adult Hailey scenes I found:

Her at the art gallery:

Her meeting her niece, Hope:

 

[hoosiergirl]

I think I would have enjoyed it more if the reason Philip was so miserable and a douche was because he was also going blind. It would be one of those “oh no I’m becoming disabled and I’m bitter” stereotypes but then maybe with Kate’s loving guidance he could have accepted his disability and produced Jack’s music. 

[CdrJanny]

2 hours ago, cameron said:

What is the timeline of the Ms generation?

Well, I came of age in the early 70s (graduated HS in 72), and Ms was starting to come into parlance then.  My friend married in 1975 and kept her family name, which was VERY early for that.  I took my husband's name in 1982, as did my sister, but we were never on the vanguard.

 

[Tango64]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

With the problems that Kate and Toby had, I was surprised it took the therapist 16 months to suggest something as simple as date night. 

To be fair, there was no indication it was the first time she suggested it. For all we know, maybe the therapist said very early on that they should have a date night dinner alone on a regular basis, and she was checking in to ask when was the last time they actually did that.

[cameron]

8 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

Well, I came of age in the early 70s (graduated HS in 72), and Ms was starting to come into parlance then.  My friend married in 1975 and kept her family name, which was VERY early for that.  I took my husband's name in 1982, as did my sister, but we were never on the vanguard.

 

Our daughter-in-law took our son's last name in 1997 except in her professional role as a Dr.  She started her practice before she got married.  Personally, I don't like the moniker Ms being applied to me, but I have to admit it's better than being called by my first name by young people.  

[Guest]

I thought it was obnoxious that Phillip had the kids make signs for the proposal. When dealing with young kids, maybe don't involve them just in case she says no? 

I also feel like the whole Phillip storyline is jammed in there for the shock value of the end of last season. So this whole season has been written to make the ending a thing instead of a well-thought out storyline.

[Blakeston]

4 minutes ago, deaja said:

I thought it was obnoxious that Phillip had the kids make signs for the proposal. When dealing with young kids, maybe don't involve them just in case she says no? 

Also, Phillip is a music teacher, and music means everything to Kate, and they sang karaoke on a pivotal date, and we know Jack is an extremely musical child.

So does he incorporate music into his proposal in some way? No, of course not. Instead he has Jack hold up a sign he can't read.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, mishap said:

But dang, they are so unlikable.

I don't think they are unlikable. I think they are unlikable sometimes. Like you said, they are human and I think the characters are well written. To me, the fact that they might be unlikable at times speaks volumes about the general quality of TV writing. Most shows make their main characters either too perfect or too evil, sometimes with powers that defy our ability to suspend disbelief. It gets boring pretty fast. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I am likely at a table for one, maybe a bistro table LOL, but yes, I am genuinely happy that Kate has found love and happiness again. 

I hope there's enough room at that bistro table for me to pull up a chair.  I am also happy that Kate found happiness.  

[mishap]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

2 hours ago, mishap said:

So are there  fans of this show who are happy that Kate is happy?   

I am likely at a table for one, maybe a bistro table LOL, but yes, I am genuinely happy that Kate has found love and happiness again. Just as I can be happy for Toby moving on and finding love and happiness as well. If for no other reason than the fact that parents who are happy tend to make for happier kids

I actually almost said this myself, about her being happy is best for her kids. lol That is very true.  

But  I just scratch my head a bit, because I think they want us to like them.  We are supposed to like them, and not because they are perfect but they have issues, vulnerabilities etc. But they can be so self absorbed and self important ,   If they want us to like them, to cheer for them ,  i wish they would give us a reason to do so.  

I do think that 3 episodes of Kate and Toby have been too much for me, and maybe for others.  I don't feel like it showcase the wonderful person Kate is supposed to be. They made her selfish, critical, nagging.  

So anyway, it's just confusing to me.  I think i'm supposed to like her and be happy for her, but they need to show me more positive traits.  

And   I am hoping we will see some, in the last few episodes.  I  watch the show because i have to see it to the end.  But it is definitely a hate/ watch situation.  lol  

[Dowel Jones]

13 hours ago, hoosiergirl said:

You guys…I laughed so hard. The wife was blind. And infertile. And killed by a drunk driver on the very day she left Philip. LOLOLOLOL. 

Aha!  Now we know how little Jack became such a success in his music career.  He got into country music and hit one out of the park.  (tips hat to Steve Goodman)

[watcher1006]

Well I'll just add my voice to those who have sided with Toby. I was unhappy back when he tried to persuade Kate to move to San Francisco for the sake of his career (although I appreciated that it was brought up that Beth had done the same for Randall). But after that, I thought that he really did try harder than Kate did to make the marriage work, giving up his job to move back to L.A. and doing an honest job of trying to be a good parent. With Kate's mindset I can't see what more he could have done that would have satisfied her.

[PRgal]

4 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

It did, but then the look on Kate’s face made me think that wasn’t something she expected to see. And do people even use “Mrs” anymore? I actually don’t know; I’m of the Ms. generation and I think most all my friends kept their birth names when they married. 

Sort of.  I do.  Though technically, I should be a "Ms." since I use both last names (no hyphen).  I'm 42.  One of my son's teachers is a "Mrs." and I think she's also in her 40s.  Maybe 50-ish at most.  His other teacher goes back and forth between Ms. and Miss.  I was a Miss until the day I got engaged (at 29).  Kate's my age, so Mrs. wouldn't be unusual.

Edited April 14, 2022 by PRgal

[BTBAM310]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:15 PM, anniebird said:

I'm definitely in the minority here but I thought this was one of the best episodes in a long, long time. Things actually happened that moved the story along, Toby finally told Kate the truth, that his biggest sin is that he's not Jack Pearson, and we got a glimpse into the future. I've been watching this season just because I've invested so much in this show I wanted to see it through to the end but I thought this episode paid off. 

Agreed. Zero flashbacks is what made this episode for me. All of the Kate/Toby stuff the last few episodes has been great.

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Shermie said:

 

6 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

They’ll have to switch to “Philate.”

So they’re stamp collectors?

That's not what first came to my mind, but yeah, let's say that. 

[Boo Boo]

I feel like Philip was patterned after every movie Hugh Grant has ever been in.

[JudyObscure]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:36 PM, himela said:

Sorry for going off topic but is there some article or something I could read regarding this matter? Thank you :)

Sorry @Himela, I don't have a specific article in mind. I just remembered it wasn't that big a number from articles I've read over the years.  I did ask Google for lifespan info to check it before I said it here.

I read health articles about weight loss all the time. Like I think the knowledge will make me thin without having to do anything.

  All I know for sure  is it seemed like the day I quit smoking and I started getting fat was the same day doctors quit saying smoking was the number one preventable cause of death and changed it to obesity.  Still my doctor always assures me that it's far better to be fat than to be a smoker.

[chocolatine]

I don't think the actual statistics matter because the show never wrote Kate as a realistic character for Chrissy's size.

Edited April 14, 2022 by chocolatine

[LexieLily]

Here is the napkin math I came up with in trying to explain the timelines to a friend. If we are moving ahead to the five-year future-flash of Kate/Phillip's wedding as the new current timeline, that makes:

• Rebecca/Miguel/Nicky/Edie (possibly) = mid-to-late 70s.
• Kate/Kevin/Randall = 45 (Kevin's dialogue to Madison in the hotel room scene)
• Deja = graduating college?
• Tess = in college
• Annie = graduating high school?
• Jack Damon = 6/7
• Nicky/Frannie/Haley = 5
• Nicky and Frannie's half-sibling via Madison/Elijah = less than a year.

Am I (mostly) correct?

[statsgirl]

6 hours ago, izabella said:

As Chrissy said in that interview posted upthread, no one will ever live up to Jack, so this marriage is doomed either way.

So Kate's marriage to Philip is doomed too?

[mansonlamps]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Sort of.  I do.  Though technically, I should be a "Ms." since I use both last names (no hyphen).  I'm 42.  One of my son's teachers is a "Mrs." and I think she's also in her 40s.  Maybe 50-ish at most.  His other teacher goes back and forth between Ms. and Miss.  I was a Miss until the day I got engaged (at 29).  Kate's my age, so Mrs. wouldn't be unusual.

Believe it or not there are still a fair amount of young millennial women with more traditional values,  at least in my world.  Most of the ones I know took their husband's last name and some are even stay at home moms!  Not my cup of tea,  but to each their own. 

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

That's not what first came to my mind, but yeah, let's say that. 

Haha, I had a more, shall we say, indelicate, response ready for that post,  but I decided to delete it and attempt to be mature for once.   Come join me at the perv table. 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

So Kate's marriage to Philip is doomed too?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  Chrissy said in the interview, essentially, that no one would ever live up to Jack, but Toby knew that before he married her, so he doesn't get to throw it in her face now.

Since no one will ever live up to Jack, including Phillip, I believe her marriage to Phillip won't work out, either.

[CrystalBlue]

9 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

They’ll have to switch to “Philate.”

That mashup name crossed my mind too!  Any further discussion would be of nothing but snarky insults from me, but it seems so appropriate!  😜 😝

[Guest]

1 hour ago, LexieLily said:

Here is the napkin math I came up with in trying to explain the timelines to a friend. If we are moving ahead to the five-year future-flash of Kate/Phillip's wedding as the new current timeline, that makes:

• Rebecca/Miguel/Nicky/Edie (possibly) = mid-to-late 70s.
• Kate/Kevin/Randall = 45 (Kevin's dialogue to Madison in the hotel room scene)
• Deja = graduating college?
• Tess = in college
• Annie = graduating high school?
• Jack Damon = 6/7
• Nicky/Frannie/Haley = 5
• Nicky and Frannie's half-sibling via Madison/Elijah = less than a year.

Am I (mostly) correct?

I think you may have put more thought into this than the writers this season.

[LexieLily]

3 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think you may have put more thought into this than the writers this season.

It only took me a few minutes to do, so that's kind of sad.

[PRgal]

41 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

Believe it or not there are still a fair amount of young millennial women with more traditional values,  at least in my world.  Most of the ones I know took their husband's last name and some are even stay at home moms!  Not my cup of tea,  but to each their own. 

Haha, I had a more, shall we say, indelicate, response ready for that post,  but I decided to delete it and attempt to be mature for once.   Come join me at the perv table. 

Nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom or taking one's husband's last name.  At least half the moms in my son's class have.  Which is why it's not abnormal for Kate to do so.  I wonder if she reverted back to Pearson, post divorce, or if she kept Damon until she married Phil the  Brit.

[mansonlamps]

45 minutes ago, izabella said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  Chrissy said in the interview, essentially, that no one would ever live up to Jack, but Toby knew that before he married her, so he doesn't get to throw it in her face now.

Since no one will ever live up to Jack, including Phillip, I believe her marriage to Phillip won't work out, either.

Wow, that's really sad for both Kate and Toby.  I can't imagine getting married knowing either 1.) You know your husband will never measure up to your dad or 2.)  Your wife will always consider you less of a husband and father than her dad was.  Ouch.

[Crs97]

20 minutes ago, mansonlamps said:

Chrissy said in the interview, essentially, that no one would ever live up to Jack, but Toby knew that before he married her, so he doesn't get to throw it in her face now.

Hmm, she knew Toby likes big gestures so I guess if he had bought the SF house and put the LA house on the market that weekend she visited, she should have been fine with it.

[chabelisaywow]

18 hours ago, lexiexx said:

Remember when they first introduced the Philip character and he was like breaking up with a supermodel type for being boring.

didn't he say it boring to watch her eat? I have that stuck in my mind and lol at thought that watching Kate would not be boring?

[CountryGirl]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

So Kate's marriage to Philip is doomed too?

I wouldn’t consider a marriage that, per the 2043 FF, is still going strong 17-18 years later (since the wedding is around 2025-2026) “doomed.”

[chocolatine]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I wouldn’t consider a marriage that, per the 2043 FF, is still going strong 17-18 years later (since the wedding is around 2025-2026) “doomed.”

But that's just because the writers chose it to be that way. If Kate still believes that no man will ever live up to Jack Pearson as a husband and father, then logically, her second marriage wouldn't fare any better than her first.

[drafan]

Some things that would be awesome , but these writers are too stupid to see it:

Kate should've said no to Phillip's proposal. I think they were trying to show that Kate is so absolutely magnificent that a relatively cute, skinny Brit (why a Brit? so he sounds intellectual? ) goes crazy for her. Uh, no...that just shows that she grabs for the first guy, post Tobe, that likes her, because she's so desperate for a man. Ugh to that. And who says she's going to be happy? Probably not.

C'mon, show...put a Jess Mariano (from Gilmore Girls) poster up in early-20s Kate's room. You know it should be there. Ick. But I would laugh my ass off.

I have some kind of random vocal commentary on my TV for some shows, and I swear the voice said "Kate lumbers down the hall."

Does Phillip have any friends? Were they excited to meet his new "super model"? And "super model" is trite and dumb too. Did he really say that?

I think the show's writers work week to week....like a new plot contrivance after they see how the last one worked out. I never thought this show had any long-range plan.

I loathe how they wrote the Kate character, but at least they didn't make her "jolly". so..yay?

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by drafan

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, drafan said:

C'mon, show...put a Jess Mariano (from Gilmore Girls) poster up in early-20s Kate's room. You know it should be there. Ick. But I would laugh my ass off.

😂 That would be hilarious!

[CountryGirl]

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

But that's just because the writers chose it to be that way. If Kate still believes that no man will ever live up to Jack Pearson as a husband and father, then logically, her second marriage wouldn't fare any better than her first.

The writers choose everything that happens in the show. Until I see evidence on the show that actually demonstrates Kate hasn’t learned a thing from the demise of her marriage, including that she is still holding to such beliefs about Jack and Philip is proven to be some doormat masochist that tolerates it for the better part of two decades,  I’m not going to make assumptions in that regard. 

 

 

[chocolatine]

7 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Until I see evidence on the show that actually demonstrates Kate hasn’t learned a thing from the demise of her marriage, including that she is still holding to such beliefs about Jack

Chrissy said exactly that in the interview posted upthread.

[Ohmo]

I hated that "I can see it now, Kate."  Hated it.  She gets credit for everything, and it comes across that Toby was the PITA to live with.  It was the other way around.

She did ZERO compromising for him, and there is no way I think Philip would find her fun or have a good time with her.

Toby, I hope your new wife is lovely.  Philip, why?  That answer you gave Kate can't actually be it...at least not with her.

On 4/12/2022 at 9:41 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

And, they seemed like they did not love each other.

No, I think Toby did love Kate.  Kate also loved Kate.

[CountryGirl]

11 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Chrissy said exactly that in the interview posted upthread.

Interviews are not scripts. Chrissy and the rest of the cast can say any number of things that may or may not influence the writing or direction of the show. I don’t take her views as the forgone conclusion of what will happen. Again, I prefer to go with what is shown onscreen vs speculation of whether or not something said in an interview may turn up in a later episode. 

[Ohmo]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:39 PM, Katie111 said:

And who is paying for that engagement party?

Kevin, Randall, or both

And when Kate and Kevin were sitting in the spare room and he says, "You and the kids will be okay," I wanted to finish the sentence with "...because I'll pay for everything."

[Ohmo]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:55 AM, LexieLily said:

Why didn't we see Adult Hailey at that show? 

Maybe she has to work at the art gallery (from the flash forward)?

Also, that was Lucy sitting between his parents and their spouses, right?  She was wearing a blue shirt.

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, deaja said:

I think you may have put more thought into this than the writers this season.

The writers are also under the impression that what they wrote is supposed to make us like Kate.

[Ohmo]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:03 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I do want to see *darling little Jack again though, so I guess I have to watch.

Boba Fett line and "you're both here" = worth it.

[CdrJanny]

1 hour ago, drafan said:

Some things that would be awesome , but these writers are too stupid to see it:

Kate should've said no to Phillip's proposal. I think they were trying to show that Kate is so absolutely magnificent that a relatively cute, skinny Brit (why a Brit? so he sounds intellectual? ) goes crazy for her. Uh, no...that just shows that she grabs for the first guy, post Tobe, that likes her, because she's so desperate for a man. Ugh to that. And who says she's going to be happy? Probably not.

C'mon, show...put a Jess Mariano (from Gilmore Girls) poster up in early-20s Kate's room. You know it should be there. Ick. But I would laugh my ass off.

I have some kind of random vocal commentary on my TV for some shows, and I swear the voice said "Kate lumbers down the hall."

Does Phillip have any friends? Were they excited to meet his new "super model"? And "super model" is trite and dumb too. Did he really say that?

I think the show's writers work week to week....like a new plot contrivance after they see how the last one worked out. I never thought this show had any long-range plan.

I loathe how they wrote the Kate character, but at least they didn't make her "jolly". so..yay?

 

Did Milo play Jess Mariano on The Gilmore Girls? If so, a poster of that character in 20-something Kate's room in her mother's house would be delicious.

I never watched it because I was working two jobs, going to night school, and raising a kid back then.

[CrystalBlue]

6 minutes ago, CdrJanny said:

Did Milo play Jess Mariano on The Gilmore Girls? If so, a poster of that character in 20-something Kate's room in her mother's house would be delicious.

I never watched it because I was working two jobs, going to night school, and raising a kid back then.

Yes, he did.  I never watched Gilmore Girls either.

[Cosmocrush]

8 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Well I'll just add my voice to those who have sided with Toby. I was unhappy back when he tried to persuade Kate to move to San Francisco for the sake of his career (although I appreciated that it was brought up that Beth had done the same for Randall). But after that, I thought that he really did try harder than Kate did to make the marriage work, giving up his job to move back to L.A. and doing an honest job of trying to be a good parent. With Kate's mindset I can't see what more he could have done that would have satisfied her.

It did appear that he [finally] was willing to do/try anything and everything (move back to L.A., counseling etc. but I think Kate made up her mind before that.  Maybe on The Hill, maybe when she got the new, more important job but as she gained confidence in herself she was probably becoming increasingly over it.   The counseling was probably a last ditch effort for her kids but none of it made Toby any happier, or her really.  

And really, marriages end.  It takes courage and in this case at least it opened the door for Kate to be happy again so I'm good with that. 

I was so relieved to see that Kate was around for at least the start of Jack's success; I wondered about that ever since we first saw future adult Jack the big star. 

 

[mansonlamps]

52 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

It did appear that he [finally] was willing to do/try anything and everything (move back to L.A., counseling etc. but I think Kate made up her mind before that.  Maybe on The Hill, maybe when she got the new, more important job but as she gained confidence in herself she was probably becoming increasingly over it.   The counseling was probably a last ditch effort for her kids but none of it made Toby any happier, or her really.  

 

You forgot to mention that she was [never] willing to do anything to help save the marriage.  It was always about Toby making compromises,  but never Kate.