S01.E04: A Long Ladder

[PRgal]

Like some posters here, I'm getting more and more curious about the Scotts.  Like how Mr. Scott received an education/trained to be a pharmacist if he was once enslaved.  Of course, he could have been freed long before the Emancipation Proclamation.  When were HBCUs first established?  Were you required to have a degree to be a pharmacist back then, or was it done through apprenticing?  And that doctor/med school grad the Scotts mentioned.  Potential Peggy suitor?  Hmmmm....

[dmc]

11 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Amen. He's an Ivy League law grad which means he's not poor and has connections. It seems that Marion and her family aren't rolling in the dough.

I don’t know if this was true then but it’s not true now. I know plenty Ivy League grads who are poor with a ton of student loan debt.  It also doesn’t mean you have connections now.  Maybe in the gilded age…
 

 

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I think that's right. As Ms. Turner was telling George that Bertha's society ambitions are eclipsing her love for George, I thought that couldn't have been more wrong.

With the Russells, they are using every opportunity for both of their benefits. That was highlighted really well in this episode. George is using his leverage over Charles Fane to help Bertha get into society. Bertha is using society to help the public image of George's company by suggesting the company take up the cause of the Red Cross. It was Bertha's society ambitions and knowing Anne Morris that helped George get to Mr. Morris.

It's not a mostly or wholly one-sided endeavor. George's business end is helping Bertha and Bertha's society end is helping George.

I’m still all in on this is the plot they are going with.  IE Cora’s interest in the hospital and Robert not liking it.  Julian recycles the same plots 

Edited February 16, 2022 by dmc

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, dmc said:

I don’t know if this was true then but it’s not true now. I know plenty Ivy League grads who are poor with a ton of student loan debt.  It also doesn’t mean you have connections now.  Maybe in the gilded age…

At the time, if you were going to an Ivy League school, it was extremely likely (if not a certainty) that you came from a wealthy family. At the time, Ivy League schools were only available to white men who could afford it.

[SailorGirl]

9 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

At the time, if you were going to an Ivy League school, it was extremely likely (if not a certainty) that you came from a wealthy family. At the time, Ivy League schools were only available to white men who could afford it.

ah, the patriarchy. . . . 

 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

I don't know how Agnes thinks she can find an Old Money suitor who would be interested in a woman with no money, regardless of her lineage.

If he is rich enough, Marian doesn't need to have money but her right lineage is enough, especially if he falls in love with her. Or if he is a rich widower who needs a mother for his orphaned children. 

[PRgal]

26 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

At the time, if you were going to an Ivy League school, it was extremely likely (if not a certainty) that you came from a wealthy family. At the time, Ivy League schools were only available to white men who could afford it.

Weren't there a very small number of students from China and Japan around that time?  I know that Charlie Soong went to what is now Duke (okay, not Ivy, but a "southern ivy") and Vanderbilt in the 1880s.  Here's an article about kids from China going to the US to study (these kids left as MIDDLE SCHOOLERS!!!) in the 1870s and 1880s.  One guy rowed for Yale.

I also recall visiting an exhibit in Hong Kong about Chinese international students in US schools in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Emmybean said:

Marian’s naïveté makes little sense. Unless she was kept in a closet, she would have known that a woman with Mrs Chamberlain’s background would be anathema to a well brought up young woman, even in Doylestown.

That!

It would be another matter if she thought "whatever Mrs Chamberlain has done, treating her badly for years is wrong and I want to do right regardless of consequences to me". But she only seems to think "such rules are stupid, so I don't care about them" without having the slightest idea that she is playing with fire. 

[AntFTW]

10 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Weren't there a very small number of students from China and Japan around that time?  I know that Charlie Soong went to what is now Duke (okay, not Ivy, but a "southern ivy") and Vanderbilt in the 1880s.  Here's an article about kids from China going to the US to study (these kids left as MIDDLE SCHOOLERS!!!) in the 1870s and 1880s.  One guy rowed for Yale.

I also recall visiting an exhibit in Hong Kong about Chinese international students in US schools in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Possibly. I'd have to do more research but as far as I've ever read about racial integration with these Ivies, the institutions were only available to white men.

Edited February 16, 2022 by AntFTW

[PRgal]

21 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Possibly. I'd have to do more research but as far as I've ever read about racial integration with these Ivies, the institutions were only available to white men.

This guy went to Yale.  Class of 1854.  The number of Asian students at these schools back then was very low (many of the kids were state sponsored), however.  Many graduates went on to become prominent figures in Chinese history.  I don't know how integrated international students were with domestic students, but my guess is not really (and it's still very much the case today).  However, it wouldn't surprise me if Ivy alumni characters on the show knew OF these international "kids" (sorry, I'm 42.  I can't help but call undergrads "kids").  Besides, they would have stood out

[monakane]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:35 PM, sistermagpie said:

Auditions for this role must have been hilarious. And maybe silent.

She stole the show.  I hope we see more of her in coming weeks.

On 2/15/2022 at 3:55 AM, Roseanna said:

Obviously, she wants both sides of the coin: she will marry Mr Raikes if her aunts accept him. But in order to be a part of the society, they will need money to maintain their lifestyle. It's not as easy as to a single man.

Spoiler

I suspect Mr. Raikes stole her father's money and that he did not leave her penniless.  How else is he supporting his NY lifestyle?

The above is pure speculation on my part.

[BabyBella94]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Louisa Jacobson has told (in her interview to Insider) that integral scenes about Tom and Marian's relationship were cut out. So it isn't Fellowes' fault that Raikes' character has been misunderstood.

It wasn't only that Raikes refused to get a fee about Marian's heritage, but after she had to sell all their goods, he wanted her to have at least the most precious things. I don't think anybody can deny that it was a nice act.

Of course people do "nice" things also from bad motives. But I think Raikes' motive was simply to help the woman he was falling hard. 

If the Crawleys didn't twice know that a distant relative was the heir to the title and fortune, Raikes could hardly know that Marian's Aunt Agnes was Old Money. 

All in all, I don't believe at all that Raikes is an adventurer but is simply a man who, besides having a fine university decree and good connections, knows what he wants and how he will get it. 

 

 

In the next episode we will see how Raikes is a bit shady. He probably doesn't care for Marian and her aunt's money but he is somewhat of an adventurer. Him asking her to go to a hotel for lunch alone and bringing her into his office without someone there was wrong. 

[tennisgurl]

This weeks MVP was absolutely the Scott's maid. That expression when she saw those used shoes Marian was lugging around was amazing. This was probably my favorite episode so far, they really made use of a large number of characters. I especially liked seeing more of Peggy's family, upper middle class/upper class black families are sadly not seen very much in the land of period pieces. Like Marian, there are still way too many people who cant imagine black people having money.

Keeping Turner around is probably going to be bad in the long term, but I loved George tossing her ass out of the bed without a second look. George might not be the most ethical person, but I can certainly respect how much he loves his wife and how loyal he is to her. A hot naked woman appears in his bed, trying to be all sexy, and he wasn't tempted for a second. Turner can take her sorry seduction and take a hike, she's lucky he didn't fire her on the spot, or, even worse, tell Bertha what she tried to pull. Bertha would, as they say, cut a bitch.

I don't trust Mr. Raikes, I think Agnes is totally right about him being a social climber. Bertha even seemed to be raising an eyebrow at how he so easily fits into New York society, game recognizes game. 

I hadn't realized that Mr. Chamberlain was dead, Mrs. Chamberlain really must be terribly lonely. No one will even look at her, her husband is dead, and her son lives in Chicago. We also find out that its not "just" that she had a baby with Mr. Chamberlain before they got married, but she was (possibly) his long time mistress until his wife died and he could marry her. Honestly that would probably get some shade thrown at you even now, let alone back then. 

Marian making a total ass of herself assuming Peggy was poor was next level cringe, I almost had to look away as it got worse and worse. Girl, do not open that bag, say your taking them to be donated somewhere! Did she not notice how well dressed Peggy is, how she is very clearly well educated? Marian might very genuinely think of Peggy as a friend and equal, but she isn't as progressive as she likes to think she is and REALLY sucks at reading a room. I did enjoy her expressions throughout though. First she looked around like "so this is how the other half lives...wait what?" at seeing their very nice house, their maid, and her slow realization at what a stupid shitty assumption she made while she dies of embarrassment. That's what she gets though, even without knowing her families wealthy, who just shows up at a persons house without giving them a heads up? Even beyond the social curtesy of the time, its rude and presumptuous to assume the person your seeing isn't in the middle of something.

I was almost as happy as Ada when they found her sweet pup, what a good boy. Also interesting to note that Ada is apparently into reading German psychology books, she really is much smarter then people give her credit for.

[dmc]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Possibly. I'd have to do more research but as far as I've ever read about racial integration with these Ivies, the institutions were only available to white men.

There's also a lot of stories about anti-Semitism at this time.  Not as no Jewish men but quotas.  Most of my reading about Gilded Age have been women and society not schooling.  Even though through my readings, I have read about men in prominent who just quit their schooling and Jewish quotas

[dmc]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:05 AM, Roseanna said:

When Larry Russell saved Aunt Ada's dog, I suppodes it was hinted that he would become Marian's love interest. Actually, favoring that romance would have been a good way to Bertha to get to know her Aunt Agnes - if she had to choose a country lawyer and  a son of New Money for a suitor to Marian, I would bet the latter. But nothing has happened.  

Larry seems to be either stupid or he doesn't care much about Gladys. That somebody is your buddy, isn't a good enough reason for letting him court  your sister. And the conversation with his father happened *after* Oscar had dropped Russells, believing that they had lost their fortune and Gladys wasn't a good catch.  It's good that Mr Russell can smell a fortune hunter. Let's hope that if he lets Oscar investigated in good time!

Gladys seems to be quite egoistical. Not for a moment did she think that asking help for meeting a man from her governess, would get her fired - and probably without recommendations. 

As for a governess, why on earth did she take so big a risk? Is the man her relative or friend whom she wants to help get a heiress, perhaps getting heir reputation ruined?

The servants in this show are lax.  I don't know how accurate it is but these people are putting in what are appears to be the barest of effort.  

You can ask the same question about the maid, the guy whose lost Ada's dog and made no effort to locate it, the woman who had gambling debts and was basically being threatened.  Also I have noticed that maid legit bad mouths Bertha in front of her staff on the regular and like one person will half heartedly say something but no one actually cares

Edited February 16, 2022 by dmc

[TimWil]

20 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It was one of my favorite scenes in the episode. It was hilarious.

Mine, too. Simon Jones (Bannister) did such lovely work in it. I shall look back on it fondly as “the c**tlery scene.”

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

Like some posters here, I'm getting more and more curious about the Scotts.  Like how Mr. Scott received an education/trained to be a pharmacist if he was once enslaved.  Of course, he could have been freed long before the Emancipation Proclamation.  When were HBCUs first established?  Were you required to have a degree to be a pharmacist back then, or was it done through apprenticing?  And that doctor/med school grad the Scotts mentioned.  Potential Peggy suitor?  Hmmmm....

My understanding at this point was that doctors did not need formal education/training to be doctors. They could apprentice. It would not surprise me if the same was true for pharmacists. 

2 hours ago, dmc said:

I don’t know if this was true then but it’s not true now. I know plenty Ivy League grads who are poor with a ton of student loan debt.  It also doesn’t mean you have connections now.  Maybe in the gilded age

Back then Ivy League schools were far less expensive than they are now. Also, they were more about accepting "the right people." (People from "good families" who could afford to pay). If someone was graduating, they probably would not have student loan debt. 

Bannister (The Old Money Butler) messing with Church's (the New Money Butler) mind was fantastic. 

If there was any doubt, Mr. Russell really loves his wife and has no plans to be unfaithful to her. 

It's great we got a comprehensive full explanation of Mrs. Chamberlands's situation. 

[Nicmar]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:29 AM, CattyK said:

George should have immediately thrown Turner out of the house in her nightgown.  She would have been totally shamed and ruined.  It makes no sense at all to keep her on.  She’ll probably start giving Bertha bad advice now.  And if Bertha ever finds out what Turner did, she’ll kill Turner, then kill George for covering it up.  
I think the show would be better without Turner, it’s just unnecessary melodrama,  but this is typical for Julian Fellowes I guess.  

What is Turner's first name? I was hoping that he would just fired her the day after.

[Tango64]

In Ms. Turner's failed seduction scene, I liked that Mr. Russell woke up, saw this servant in his bed and leapt up in indignation. But instead of indulging her with a conversation about why he would not accept her offer, I wish he had immediately grabbed her by the arm and dragged her naked, skanky ass down the hall to Bertha's room, woke his wife, and told her exactly what happened. No hesitation, no internal debate. 

Bertha would have been livid to realize that her closest confidante is such a traitor, and it would have further solidified the bond and trust with her husband. Then we could have had a scene with Bertha going all Bertha on Ms. Turner, telling her exactly what was going to happen to her and why Ms. Turner would never dare tell anyone.

That would have been delicious to watch. And it would have been a pleasant jolt to us viewers anticipating what he would do, expecting him to go along with it or give a speech as he did. But of course, Ms. Turner would been gone by the next episode and apparently that is not what the plot desires.

(Side note, I couldn't help notice that these richie rich folks even sleep elegantly. It would have been funny for Ms. Turner to slip in to Mr. Russell's room in the middle of the night and find him sprawled all over the bed, one leg hanging off, covers all a mess, his mouth hanging open and drooling, snoring like crazy. You know, like us regular folks.)

[Noneofyourbusiness]

5 hours ago, ahpny said:

George has already been shown to be both bright and realistic. But it was neither to "pretend" this never happened. Yeah, like that's going to end well.

In the behind the scenes after the episode, they said George felt responsible for thinking that Turner's lingering looks were harmless and feels like he unwittingly led her on. Of course, we can all see that her affections are just a ploy.

[Atlanta]

Please let George NOT take the bait or get stuck in a situation that may be innocent, but looks really bad. I find infidelity a lazy plot point for movies, shows, and books. I like #TeamRussell 

Peggy dresses better than Marian, loans her money, and yet M was clueless. She's a special sort of dumb.

I wonder if we'll see hottie publisher (Mr Fortune) again?

[Shermie]

Ugh, I’m with those who wish Turner had her skinny ass handed to her by Bertha. I’m foreseeing a scene where she twists things and slyly says something to Bertha about “when she was naked in her husband’s bed”. Which George will not be able to deny.

Quote

The one thing I am not liking about this show is that Marian is supposed to be naive but she doesn’t appear to be learning or getting less naive with each episode. They have been pushing her naïveté really hard since she got robbed at the train station in the first episode. She’s staying in that same naive spot we found her in.

I guess because she spends so much time sheltered and chaperoned. I know that was the expectation of the times, but how can someone become more worldly if they’re not in the world to experience it?

It occurred to me that this show takes place in the same timeline as later episodes of Little House on the Prairie, although you’d never know it. The Gilded Age folks are so much more advanced and fashionable and worldly than the progress-hating bumpkins on Little House.

[LegalParrot81]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

If someone was graduating, they probably would not have student loan debt. 

This peaked my curiosity, so I went fishing. There weren't student loans available (except for Harvard, which started loaning money somewhere in 1840).  The department of education didn't exist until 1867 and federal student loans didn't come into being until 1958.  These were 99% sons of rich, white men.

Honestly, if I had been Peggy, I just might have slapped Marion up side the head.  Marion truly can't be that dumb or myopic, can she?  

George Russell is a clearly man in love with his wife and Mrs. Turner is just creepy. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by LegalParrot81

[Carolina Girl]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Girl, do not open that bag, say your taking them to be donated somewhere!

Anyone with half a brain would have said something clever "oh, I didn't even realize I'd dragged this bag in here with me.  These are used shoes I'm dropping off on my way home for a charity."  Instead the idiot announced that the bag contained items she'd actually brought for the Scotts.

 

[dmc]

1 hour ago, Tango64 said:

In Ms. Turner's failed seduction scene, I liked that Mr. Russell woke up, saw this servant in his bed and leapt up in indignation. But instead of indulging her with a conversation about why he would not accept her offer, I wish he had immediately grabbed her by the arm and dragged her naked, skanky ass down the hall to Bertha's room, woke his wife, and told her exactly what happened. No hesitation, no internal debate. 

Bertha would have been livid to realize that her closest confidante is such a traitor, and it would have further solidified the bond and trust with her husband. Then we could have had a scene with Bertha going all Bertha on Ms. Turner, telling her exactly what was going to happen to her and why Ms. Turner would never dare tell anyone.

That would have been delicious to watch. And it would have been a pleasant jolt to us viewers anticipating what he would do, expecting him to go along with it or give a speech as he did. But of course, Ms. Turner would been gone by the next episode and apparently that is not what the plot desires.

(Side note, I couldn't help notice that these richie rich folks even sleep elegantly. It would have been funny for Ms. Turner to slip in to Mr. Russell's room in the middle of the night and find him sprawled all over the bed, one leg hanging off, covers all a mess, his mouth hanging open and drooling, snoring like crazy. You know, like us regular folks.)

I don't know crawling in to bed naked with someone is a seduction more like an assault.    I feel like that's the weird aspect here, what made her think this would work?

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

In the behind the scenes after the episode, they said George felt responsible for thinking that Turner's lingering looks were harmless and feels like he unwittingly led her on. Of course, we can all see that her affections are just a ploy.

If that's the case, it wasn't clear from the show.  At all.  What he said was that she helps his wife and he didn't want to hurt Bertha by firing her.  If he felt at all guilty or responsible about anything, it was not shown.

I wonder how many other things the show isn't showing, but are part of the story and reasoning.

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

I guess because she spends so much time sheltered and chaperoned. I know that was the expectation of the times, but how can someone become more worldly if they’re not in the world to experience it?

I think you're right that she's been sheltered, though we don't know to what extent before her father died.  At the same time, even when she does have an experience, I don't think she has shown that she is capable of learning anything from it.  I don't think she learned a single thing from her visit to Bloomingdale's, not from Peggy's visbile discomfort, not from the dead silence and stares in the store, not from Mrs. Chamberlain who had to tell her "no, we can't hang out and shop together," and not from Peggy who finally had to tell her they needed to leave immediately.   Ask her what she learned in the store, and Marian would likely say, "I learned Mrs. C is really nice and friendly!" and "Bloomingdale's has some lovely goods!"

Edited February 16, 2022 by izabella

[Straycat80]

3 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

In the next episode we will see how Raikes is a bit shady. He probably doesn't care for Marian and her aunt's money but he is somewhat of an adventurer. Him asking her to go to a hotel for lunch alone and bringing her into his office without someone there was wrong. 

Did anyone else notice during the scene in the theater box when Marian said something about Raikes there was a ‘look’ that passed between Bertha and Mrs. Fain? Definitely think something is shady about him now.

I’m still wondering why Peggy needed legal advice from Raikes. Apparently it’s not a divorce as I thought since her mother was mentioning introducing her to a man. 
I’d also like to see more of Mrs. Chamberlain and her son. Mrs. C. could fix him up with Marian, the aunts would flip, but then she’d be moneyed. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

Him asking her to go to a hotel for lunch alone and bringing her into his office without someone there was wrong. 

The hotel yes  but not the office. 

Besides, Gladys went to the hotel to meet a man and her governess thought it was "innocent". It seems that Fellowes doesn't exactly follow the habits of the time.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

It occurred to me that this show takes place in the same timeline as later episodes of Little House on the Prairie, although you’d never know it. The Gilded Age folks are so much more advanced and fashionable and worldly than the progress-hating bumpkins on Little House.

TBF, how many times have any of these Gilded Age folks prayed their way out of a hostage situation with escaped bankrobbers or an anthrax epidemic? Everyone has their own area of expertise.

ETA: And none of the Ingalls would have been as bad as Marian at the Scott's house. (Well, maybe Carrie, but she's slow.)

Edited February 16, 2022 by sistermagpie

[TV Diva Queen]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:49 AM, meep.meep said:

These people had a system for stopping by unannounced and we saw how it worked here.  Marian shows up and the maid answers the door and asks for her card.  Marian hands it over and waits.  The maid shows the card to the family who agree to see Marian.  The maid goes back and ushers Marian in.

If the family didn't want to see her, the maid would have gone back to Marian and informed her that the family was "not at home."  The maid would have handed the calling card back to Marian who either would take it or insist that it be kept to show the family that she had called while they were "out."

That's why you don't build houses with "open concept" - there's no privacy between the family and the callers.

To add to this….it’s called a “calling card” too. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

who just shows up at a persons house without giving them a heads up? Even beyond the social curtesy of the time, its rude and presumptuous to assume the person your seeing isn't in the middle of something.

Professor Bhaer who was in love with Jo in Alcott's Little Women, did just that, even travelling to the town she lived. Her family was delighted and immediately accepted him Jo's friend as a friend of their all.

Instead, Marian and Peggy lived in the same house and Peggy had asked a day's leave to visit her family in the same town - any decent person would have left her do it in peace. If her family had really been poor, Marian's visit and "charity" could have been even more embarrassing to her it now was. 

  

[tljgator]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, how many times have any of these Gilded Age folks prayed their way out of a hostage situation with escaped bankrobbers or an anthrax epidemic? Everyone has their own area of expertise.

ETA: And none of the Ingalls would have been as bad as Marian at the Scott's house. (Well, maybe Carrie, but she's slow.)

They better hope a mime doesn't try to rape anyone, or that a "saloon girl" doesn't hit on anyone's husband. Things were dicey on the Prairie.

Agreed, though, even folks on the Prairie would've turned their nose up at that pitiful display from Marian. I'm not sure if we've ever seen such a privileged lack of room reading before -- even from other Fellows' characters -- Marian is obtuse in heretofore unimagined ways.

[Popples]

37 minutes ago, izabella said:

I think you're right that she's been sheltered, though we don't know to what extent before her father died.  At the same time, even when she does have an experience, I don't think she has shown that she is capable of learning anything from it.  I don't think she learned a single thing from her visit to Bloomingdale's, not from Peggy's visbile discomfort, not from the dead silence and stares in the store, not from Mrs. Chamberlain who had to tell her "no, we can't hang out and shop together," and not from Peggy who finally had to tell her they needed to leave immediately.   Ask her what she learned in the store, and Marian would likely say, "I learned Mrs. C is really nice and friendly!" and "Bloomingdale's has some lovely goods!"

Even Mrs. Chamberlain noticed the hostile stares of the Bloomindale's staff, yet Marian was so damn oblivious to the entire situation. That's what has been annoying me about Marian's character, she isn't growing.

 

35 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Besides, Gladys went to the hotel to meet a man and her governess thought it was "innocent". It seems that Fellowes doesn't exactly follow the habits of the time.

I thought it was because Marian is an adult and Gladys isn't considered one because she isn't out yet.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, tljgator said:

They better hope a mime doesn't try to rape anyone, or that a "saloon girl" doesn't hit on anyone's husband. Things were dicey on the Prairie.

 

Wearing her dress that was more like a belt!!!

13 minutes ago, Popples said:

Even Mrs. Chamberlain noticed the hostile stares of the Bloomindale's staff, yet Marian was so damn oblivious to the entire situation. That's what has been annoying me about Marian's character, she isn't growing.

Also, sometimes I get annoyed when shows set in the past seem to suggest that immediate visible racism is a quality unique to some bad apples. Not saying everyone has to be super racist by any means--of course you're going to want your main characters to be somewhat open-minded (see LHotP again), but on one hand Marian has a stereotype in her head that black people are poor, which would suggest she has either experience she's drawing on or learned this attitude, but otoh she's unaware that a black woman would draw negative attention in a fancy store. So it's a very Specific Level of Cluelessness.

It's maybe supposed to map on to a modern day white person who misses a million micro-aggressions but also considers themselves very sensitive to social justice. But in Marian's case, it seems unlikely. If she'd never had any contact with a black person before she'd probably be even worse with Peggy, like staring at her or touching her hair bad, and if she has had contact she'd know the attitudes people had about them. It's like "I don't see color...but I just assumed you only listened to rap music even though you're a professional classical violinist."

[BabyBella94]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

The hotel yes  but not the office. 

Besides, Gladys went to the hotel to meet a man and her governess thought it was "innocent". It seems that Fellowes doesn't exactly follow the habits of the time.

He did bring her alone into the office, he shouldn't have done that. It wasn't something a "society lady" does. 

[Emmybean]

18 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Marian didn't learn Mrs Chamberlain's background until after she visited her.

She saw Ada’s reaction to Mrs Chamberlain’s presence at the earlier event, and while Ada is rather naive, she’s also kinder and more flexible, in some ways, than Agnes. Even in Doylestown there were likely those Who Were Not Received, though perhaps Marion herself fell into that category, given her father’s history. I find it possible that Marion might be generous and naive, not that she’d be so ignorant.

[DiabLOL]

Can they please get a well fitted harness and sturdy leash for Pumpkin already?! My blood pressure!

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Anyone with half a brain would have said something clever "oh, I didn't even realize I'd dragged this bag in here with me.  These are used shoes I'm dropping off on my way home for a charity."  Instead the idiot announced that the bag contained items she'd actually brought for the Scotts.

 

The thing Marian should have done was regift that very nice and luxurious carved box to the Scotts.

Edited February 16, 2022 by AntFTW

[Atlanta]

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The thing Marian should have done was regift that very nice and luxurious carved box to the Scotts.

Yes. It could have been a thank you gift to Peggy for her help at the train station. I normally like their friendship, but, wow, so cringe in this episode.

[heatherchandler]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:23 PM, AntFTW said:

She lives in a bubble.

I thought the scene of Marian getting out of the carriage was good. She had a really good "so this is how the other half lives" face with a mixture of stupidity to learn she assumed wrong and that Peggy isn't poor. That look of astonishment she made looking at the Scotts' house realizing it's big and about equal in size to her aunt's house.

I also loved all of the people looking at Marian like "are you lost?"

It was a nice big house (and probably worth a fortune today) but not even close to the estates on 5th Avenue (Millionaire's Row).

The houses were full city blocks, most have been turned into hotels.

 

On 2/14/2022 at 10:29 PM, AntFTW said:

This woman deserves an Emmy. She put my emotions on the screen. I felt it:

 

I didn't understand why she was so annoyed with Marion.  This look was before she busted out the gross shoes.

 

On 2/14/2022 at 11:35 PM, ZeeEnnui said:

 

As a viewer, I died from secondhand cringe during Marian's terrible no good, very racist decision to visit Peggy's family. UNANNOUNCED. Like, who invited you?!? Those manky boots are made for walking, so beat it out of Brooklyn. Can Marian suffer some period appropriate malady like cholera or tuberculosis or anything that can kill you while playing the Oregon Trail? Just get her off my screen (and into acting lessons). 

You would think Meryl Streep's daughter would have at least a little acting ability, but no.

[MissLucas]

5 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I didn't understand why she was so annoyed with Marion.  This look was before she busted out the gross shoes.

Marian showed up unannounced and at the wrong time - two breaches of etiquette before she even opened her mouth. Then she did not offer her card, asking if the Scotts would receive her. Three strikes earned her that look.

[caitmcg]

31 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

It was a nice big house (and probably worth a fortune today) but not even close to the estates on 5th Avenue (Millionaire's Row).

The houses were full city blocks, most have been turned into hotels.

 

Yes, but the Van Rijn house, from what we’ve seen, is not that.

[Atlanta]

5 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

Yes, but the Van Rijn house, from what we’ve seen, is not that.

I know Agnes is old money, but I'm not getting the impression they are mega wealthy. Was the late Mr Van Rijn rich? It was mentioned that their brother lost their money, IIRC.

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

The thing Marian should have done was regift that very nice and luxurious carved box to the Scotts.

And I'm willing to bet Sylvia Chamberlain would have understood her reason for doing so and approved.  It's interesting that the "fallen woman" is one of the most likeable characters so far in the series.

Although, I did SO love Bannister's remark "it's a wonder someone doesn't grab someone else's glass by mistake."  When they are all spaced widely apart at "home" dinners, this is not a problem.  It would be if/when Mrs. Russell has a larger dinner and there's less space (even though I'm assuming a larger table would be utilized.  But it was Church's "how does Mrs. Astor arrange them?!" that gave me the giggle.

Of course, Mrs. Morris made no comment as far as I could tell regarding either the glass arrangement or the use of colored glassware for the champagne to anyone - but then again perhaps she didn't tell anyone how her husband forced her to have dinner at the Russells.  . 

I wondered about Bannister's inquiry about the oyster fork and spoon.  Had he never seen such a thing before or was this a "new people" thing?  Also loved that "transported to Versailles" remark.

48 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

You would think Meryl Streep's daughter would have at least a little acting ability, but no.

She really doesn't.  At least not as far as I can determine.  

[Sarah 103]

5 hours ago, Shermie said:

It occurred to me that this show takes place in the same timeline as later episodes of Little House on the Prairie, although you’d never know it.

I tried to find words that would express my reaction and respond to this without sounding like a stoner and gave up on that so here it goes: This blows my mind on a fundamental level. It's crazy to think that events in The Gilded Age are happening at the same time as the events on Little House on the Prairie. It seems/feels like it would be decades apart. 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, how many times have any of these Gilded Age folks prayed their way out of a hostage situation with escaped bankrobbers or an anthrax epidemic? Everyone has their own area of expertise.

And now I'm picturing Laura and/or Pa in New York City (for plot reasons because TVLand Logic) and acting like MacGyver (using thier knowledge to save the day).  

5 hours ago, LegalParrot81 said:

There weren't student loans available (except for Harvard, which started loaning money somewhere in 1840).  The department of education didn't exist until 1867 and federal student loans didn't come into being until 1958.  These were 99% sons of rich, white men.

That's about what I figured. I always thought that college student loans started on a vast scale post World War II, but that was not based on anything I had read or heard, just a general feeling of what sounded correct. Thank you for taking the time to do the research and sharing what you found with everyone here.   

Edited February 17, 2022 by Sarah 103

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

It was a nice big house (and probably worth a fortune today) but not even close to the estates on 5th Avenue (Millionaire's Row).

The houses were full city blocks, most have been turned into hotels.

3 hours ago, caitmcg said:

Yes, but the Van Rijn house, from what we’ve seen, is not that.

Yes, exactly.

Edited February 17, 2022 by AntFTW

[Adgirl]

It sort of makes sense that George wouldn't want Turner dismissed as we have all heard the Dowager Countess lament having to break in a new ladies' maid.

Based on the story Peggy's father is telling at the table he was probably a child/pre-teen when he was emancipated.

I hope Bertha Russell can chill and stop commenting aloud about not being accepted.

Also there are block long brownstone and limestone homes in Brooklyn too! Only the effin out of towners don't know BK mirrors  Manhattan.  Carrie Bradshaw was a transplant.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Adgirl

[heatherchandler]

2 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I know Agnes is old money, but I'm not getting the impression they are mega wealthy. Was the late Mr Van Rijn rich? It was mentioned that their brother lost their money, IIRC.

I think they are wealthy, isn’t that the whole point of the show, the great wealth of the old money Van Rijns, etc?

 

[Atlanta]

3 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

I think they are wealthy, isn’t that the whole point of the show, the great wealth of the old money Van Rijns, etc?

Sometimes you can be 'poor' but posh with the right connections. Or maybe your wealth is tied up in properties. I'm thinking of all the relatively impoverished aristocrats that married daughters of new money America like Cora Grantham. The Buccaneers mini series would be a nice companion to this show.

[heatherchandler]

23 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Amen. He's an Ivy League law grad which means he's not poor and has connections. It seems that Marion and her family aren't rolling in the dough.

Marion is broke, her dad left her nothing.  But the Van Rijns are super wealthy, from Agnes’s husband.

[Affogato]

7 hours ago, Shermie said:

Ugh, I’m with those who wish Turner had her skinny ass handed to her by Bertha. I’m foreseeing a scene where she twists things and slyly says something to Bertha about “when she was naked in her husband’s bed”. Which George will not be able to deny.

I guess because she spends so much time sheltered and chaperoned. I know that was the expectation of the times, but how can someone become more worldly if they’re not in the world to experience it?

It occurred to me that this show takes place in the same timeline as later episodes of Little House on the Prairie, although you’d never know it. The Gilded Age folks are so much more advanced and fashionable and worldly than the progress-hating bumpkins on Little House.

Also 1883 is on at the same time.