S01.E04: A Long Ladder

[Roseanna]

8 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's interesting that people are suspicious of Raikes, when he has seemed to be the most open and forward about his desires, motivations and plans.  Everyone else has been shown to be scheming, plotting, and manipulating while Raikes has spelled out exactly what he wants to the people he wants it from.   Hey, Marion, I want to stay in touch while you're in NY!  Hey Marian, I want to move to NY and see how the other half lives!  Hey Marion, you're the best thing since sliced bread, marry me!  Ok, well, let me know if you change your mind, cuz I'm waiting for you.  Hell yeah, my college friend invited me to the opera box, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it!

It's even more interesting that his being open and forward is exactly what is making people suspicious.  We are not that different from Agnes!

Exactly!

Also, can't a woman ever change her mind? If her "no" must be considered constant, Darcy acted wrongly to propose to Elizabeth the second time.

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, izabella said:

It's interesting that people are suspicious of Raikes, when he has seemed to be the most open and forward about his desires, motivations and plans.  Everyone else has been shown to be scheming, plotting, and manipulating while Raikes has spelled out exactly what he wants to the people he wants it from.   Hey, Marion, I want to stay in touch while you're in NY!  Hey Marian, I want to move to NY and see how the other half lives!  Hey Marion, you're the best thing since sliced bread, marry me!  Ok, well, let me know if you change your mind, cuz I'm waiting for you.  Hell yeah, my college friend invited me to the opera box, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it!

It's even more interesting that his being open and forward is exactly what is making people suspicious.  We are not that different from Agnes!

I am not concerned with facts. Not if they interfere with my beliefs.

[Roseanna]

The only thing which really makes me wonder about Raikes is why did he fall in love with Marian. She is pretty but there were surely other pretty girls in their original home town. Perhaps he originally felt pity towards her because she is an orphan who was left penniless by her father and therefore wanted to help her (no fee, going with her to the station, the auction scene that was left out), imagining himself to be the savior of "the damsel in distress". Then in New York when she was above him because of her aunts, his mode changed to "the poor boy who gets the princess with his perseverance".

For there are in Marian no qualities or actions (as shown to us) that would explain his tender feelings vanished because "not before eyes, not in the mind".  In fiction we are used to understand what qualities Elizabeth possess that make Darcy fall for her against his will. Or even better, why Captain Wentworth changes his opinion about Anne in Persuasion.    

[MissLucas]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

It's interesting that people are suspicious of Raikes, when he has seemed to be the most open and forward about his desires, motivations and plans. 

That's exactly why I don't trust him. A man who looks a woman in the eyes and tells her 'When I see what I really want, I take it if I can' does not spell love interest to me. But since Matthew Goode's character said something similar to Lady Mary in DA and they ended up happily married it's entirely possible that Fellowes intends Raikes to be Marian's twu luv 🤷‍♂️

Still, I have high hopes that Mrs Chamberlain's son will upset the apple cart at some point in the future.

Edited February 18, 2022 by MissLucas

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

That's exactly why I don't trust him. A man who looks a woman in the eyes and tells her 'When I see what I really want, I take it if I can' does not spell love interest to me.

Perhaps I interpret it differently. I interpreted Raikes saying that he sees what he wants and he's willing to work for it. He's willing to put in the effort to win Marian's aunts' approval, and therefore, win Marian's approval.

Edited February 18, 2022 by AntFTW

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

It's interesting that people are suspicious of Raikes, when he has seemed to be the most open and forward about his desires, motivations and plans.  Everyone else has been shown to be scheming, plotting, and manipulating while Raikes has spelled out exactly what he wants to the people he wants it from.   Hey, Marion, I want to stay in touch while you're in NY!  Hey Marian, I want to move to NY and see how the other half lives!  Hey Marion, you're the best thing since sliced bread, marry me!  Ok, well, let me know if you change your mind, cuz I'm waiting for you.  Hell yeah, my college friend invited me to the opera box, and I'm enjoying the hell out of it!

It's even more interesting that his being open and forward is exactly what is making people suspicious.  We are not that different from Agnes!

Okay, you make a good point, lol. But everyone on this show “has an angle.” I was convinced he was just in love with Marian until we saw him at the opera in a society box. We know it’s near impossible for anyone who isn’t “someone” to get a box seat there. So I’m more suspicious of Raikes that he was using Marian as a means to an end to break into NY elite society, just like the Russells. I don’t buy into the conspiracy theories that he stole the house in Doylestown from Marian’s father. I believe exactly what we’ve been told that Marian’s father lost his own fortune. But in the reading of the Will or what have you, I bet Raikes saw that Marian was related to the New York VanRajns, and saw that as his entree to get out of Doylestown and make it big. And if Marian didn’t jump to his proposal quickly enough, here’s another fine young lady right here who might be my meal ticket. I think if he can’t get an Old Money bride then at the very least he can get a New Money career out of it. I can see him working with George Russell and suing everyone who gets in George’s way—making a fortune for himself.

[izabella]

3 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

Okay, you make a good point, lol. But everyone on this show “has an angle.” I was convinced he was just in love with Marian until we saw him at the opera in a society box. We know it’s near impossible for anyone who isn’t “someone” to get a box seat there. So I’m more suspicious of Raikes that he was using Marian as a means to an end to break into NY elite society, just like the Russells.

I don't see the box as anything suspicious.  He wasn't given his own box; he was just someone's guest, someone he knows from law school.   And I don't consider him being issued that invitation as suspicious either.  We've seen that Larry gets invited to society events and places for the same reason - Harvard friends.  

And going back to my comment that he is straight forward rather than duplicitous, he explained to Marian that he is trying to gain hers/Agnes' approval, so he is trying to break into their society.

[JenE4]

23 minutes ago, izabella said:

I don't see the box as anything suspicious.  He wasn't given his own box; he was just someone's guest, someone he knows from law school.   And I don't consider him being issued that invitation as suspicious either.  We've seen that Larry gets invited to society events and places for the same reason - Harvard friends.  

And going back to my comment that he is straight forward rather than duplicitous, he explained to Marian that he is trying to gain hers/Agnes' approval, so he is trying to break into their society.

Well, I guess we’ll see how it plays out. They also made a point of Marian and Peggy saying how rushed his proposal seemed—just to point that out to the audience. He barely knew her and didn’t even take the time to “court” Marian before he proposed. So it seems like he’s up to something. You’re going to give up your whole life and practice and move to another city for someone who you interacted with twice as a client—then propose the first time you had an opportunity to talk about something other than business with her? Everyone keeps comparing this show to Downton Abbey. I just started watching it (on season 3), for some context, Mary met Matthew in 1912 and didn’t marry him until 1920.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:29 PM, AntFTW said:

This woman deserves an Emmy. She put my emotions on the screen. I felt it:

 

I know this post already has a million likes but I'm quoting it just to laugh again

On 2/14/2022 at 11:51 PM, AntFTW said:

I'm addicted to it. I need a good dose of Baranski snark each week. It was perfection in this episode.

Christine is so damn funny on this show!

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:04 PM, rollacoaster said:

Since we got nearly full frontal female nudity, can we get something close to that from a hot male?

Asking for myself. 😉

I've pretty much enjoyed all of the episodes, but this is the first on that held my attention all the way through. With some of the previous ones, I found myself kinda drifting, or doing other things with the show on the background. 

Hear Hear!  I hate the cliche of Always female frontal nudity, never male!  I think it's based on old fashioned censors but still.  I hope some directors/producers with clout are trying to fight that.  "And Just Like That" had no problem showing lots of male nudity and I hear the same about "Euphoria" but because it's about teenagers I refuse to watch.

[AntFTW]

38 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I know this post already has a million likes but I'm quoting it just to laugh again

Christine is so damn funny on this show!

This was my favorite episode so far. It was gold.

@SnazzyDaisy killed me with this ⬇️

[MamaMax]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:44 AM, Melina22 said:

Now there's a show I'd love to watch. From slavery to wealth in one lifetime! How could that not be a fascinating series? 

Spinoff! "The Scotts of Brooklyn"

I would 1000% watch 

[buttersister]

Perhaps the reason so many believe something nefarious must be up with Raike's attraction to Marion is because she seems so meh? LOL!

[buckboard]

15 minutes ago, MamaMax said:

Spinoff! "The Scotts of Brooklyn"

I would 1000% watch 

Yes!  Just get a writer who would do the plot justice.

And they could also explain what Peggy was doing in Doylestown and why she needed a lawyer in New York.

[Enigma X]

If this show turns out to be one where the majority of the characters are cut throat, I am going to bow out. There are other ways to create drama. I can take or leave Raikes, but I don't need him to be duplicitous.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Enigma X

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The only thing which really makes me wonder about Raikes is why did he fall in love with Marian. She is pretty but there were surely other pretty girls in their original home town. Perhaps he originally felt pity towards her because she is an orphan who was left penniless by her father and therefore wanted to help her (no fee, going with her to the station, the auction scene that was left out), imagining himself to be the savior of "the damsel in distress". Then in New York when she was above him because of her aunts, his mode changed to "the poor boy who gets the princess with his perseverance".

For there are in Marian no qualities or actions (as shown to us) that would explain his tender feelings vanished because "not before eyes, not in the mind".  In fiction we are used to understand what qualities Elizabeth possess that make Darcy fall for her against his will. Or even better, why Captain Wentworth changes his opinion about Anne in Persuasion.    

 

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Well, I guess we’ll see how it plays out. They also made a point of Marian and Peggy saying how rushed his proposal seemed—just to point that out to the audience. He barely knew her and didn’t even take the time to “court” Marian before he proposed. So it seems like he’s up to something. You’re going to give up your whole life and practice and move to another city for someone who you interacted with twice as a client—then propose the first time you had an opportunity to talk about something other than business with her? Everyone keeps comparing this show to Downton Abbey. I just started watching it (on season 3), for some context, Mary met Matthew in 1912 and didn’t marry him until 1920.

 

1 hour ago, buttersister said:

Perhaps the reason so many believe something nefarious must be up with Raike's attraction to Marion is because she seems so meh? LOL!

Exactly to all this. I can totally believe him as a guy who's come to NY and wants to move up in the social world, learning all about the sights and making connections with well born people through his education. He doesn't seem like he has to be duplicitous for any of that.

The part that doesn't make sense is how he's so eager to experience this whole new world so openly...but when it comes to romance he's set on the bland woman he's met a few times as a client back in his small town of Pennsylvania. Like just...why? If she was Lady Mary I could at least understand it. She's written as a character like that. There can be a hometown girl who works that way as a character. Unfortunately, Marian just ain't it. She's neither shining with wholesomeness nor somebody who seems like she'd have fun helping him move up the ladder like Bertha. If she's supposed to have a spark, she doesn't.

[Carolina Girl]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Still, I have high hopes that Mrs Chamberlain's son will upset the apple cart at some point in the future.

Ah the Chekov rule -- never mention a gun in the first act that you don't intend to use in the second......

Edited February 18, 2022 by Carolina Girl
I'd like to buy an "e", Vanna

[Fireball]

On 2/16/2022 at 3:27 AM, Roseanna said:

Louisa Jacobson has told (in her interview to Insider) that integral scenes about Tom and Marian's relationship were cut out. So it isn't Fellowes' fault that Raikes' character has been misunderstood.

It wasn't only that Raikes refused to get a fee about Marian's heritage, but after she had to sell all their goods, he wanted her to have at least the most precious things. I don't think anybody can deny that it was a nice act.

Of course people do "nice" things also from bad motives. But I think Raikes' motive was simply to help the woman he was falling hard. 

Those cut scenes sound like they would have helped me understand the relationship and be invested in it... Seems a bad decision to cut scenes that establish the connection between the couple you are supposed to be routing for. 

[mojito]

5 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Hear Hear!  I hate the cliche of Always female frontal nudity, never male!  I think it's based on old fashioned censors but still. 

I think it's based on old-fashioned practices of having men in charge of these productions.

[peachmangosteen]

It never even occurred to me to question Raikes. This show seems pretty straight forward so far to me.

I would like to thank the show for the shirtless George scene. More please! I about fell out of my chair when the maid lady just got naked and got into bed with him. She's bold, I'll give her that! From a television standpoint, it was so awkward that she was just laying there with her boobs out for like 5 minutes. It felt so gratuitous. If we're gonna do that, then at least give me a George ass shot!

[Sarah 103]

18 minutes ago, mojito said:

I think it's based on old-fashioned practices of having men in charge of these productions.

I that's correct, but there's also more to it. In movies, female full frontal would often get a movie an R rating, which was usually acceptable. Many times a studio or distributor would have a clause in the contract that the director or producer's film had to recieve an R rating or lower, otherwise it would need edits to ensure an R rating. Male full fontral would be an automatic NC-17 which is pretty much the kiss of death for a movie. Very few places would accept an advertisment for an NC-17 movie. TV had even more restrictions until very recently. If someone has come up through a system with that kind of restriction in place, it's hard for them to realize under certain conditions they might be allowed to have a scene with male full frontal. 

The fact that most people in the upper levels of the industury are still men (directors, writers, producers, executives) probably has something to do with it as well. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

That's what I mean.  The censorship practice is very sexist and biased towards showing female nudity over male.

[BabyBella94]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

I don't see the box as anything suspicious.  He wasn't given his own box; he was just someone's guest, someone he knows from law school.   And I don't consider him being issued that invitation as suspicious either.  We've seen that Larry gets invited to society events and places for the same reason - Harvard friends.  

And going back to my comment that he is straight forward rather than duplicitous, he explained to Marian that he is trying to gain hers/Agnes' approval, so he is trying to break into their society.

Larry even tho he isn't "old money" has a lot of money and his family is known...while Tom so far isn't. He's just some lawyer.  Him doing all this for Marian (apparently) probably won't still be enough for Agnes. He still isn't old money no matter what his connections are. 

[AntFTW]

41 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Larry even tho he isn't "old money" has a lot of money and his family is known...while Tom so far isn't. He's just some lawyer.  Him doing all this for Marian (apparently) probably won't still be enough for Agnes. He still isn't old money no matter what his connections are. 

Funnily enough, I think Agnes' biases are "new" vs "old", moreso than the "money" aspect of it. Sure, Agnes wants some that meets both criteria of both being from an "old New York" family and having money, but the priority appears to be "old NY."

Agnes doesn't care if you have money if you are not in the "old NY" social club (i.e. the Russells). IMO, if Tom Raikes gains acceptance into "old NY", he has a better shot getting Agnes' approval rather than just having money.

Edited February 19, 2022 by AntFTW

[BabyBella94]

56 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Funnily enough, I think Agnes' biases are "new" vs "old", moreso than the "money" aspect of it. Sure, Agnes wants some that meets both criteria of both being from an "old New York" family and having money, but the priority appears to be "old NY."

Agnes doesn't care if you have money if you are not in the "old NY" social club (i.e. the Russells). IMO, if Tom Raikes gains acceptance into "old NY", he has a better shot getting Agnes' approval rather than just having money.

Even if he gets acceptance, I doubt Agnes would care, he still isn't "old money" in her eyes (aka having the pedigree and generations of wealth) 

As far as we know about Agnes she calls the old money crowd "rats" if they even accept some new money cash so I get a feeling she doesn't care what Mrs. Astor or the others really thinks.

[KarenX]

24 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Even if he gets acceptance, I doubt Agnes would care, he still isn't "old money" in her eyes (aka having the pedigree and generations of wealth) 

As far as we know about Agnes she calls the old money crowd "rats" if they even accept some new money cash so I get a feeling she doesn't care what Mrs. Astor or the others really thinks.

I get the feeling that Agnes, feeling the sting of genteel poverty, falls back on and clings to her name and the old ways. I don’t think they have much else.

I wonder if someone else—like Mrs Astor—will attempt to guide Marian from a position of bigger wealth and more confidence, and cause a stir for her at home.

Maybe not. She seemed to go to the symphony with her aunt’s blessing. But still… that wasn’t advice. That was just society.

[BabyBella94]

11 minutes ago, KarenX said:

I get the feeling that Agnes, feeling the sting of genteel poverty, falls back on and clings to her name and the old ways. I don’t think they have much else.

I wonder if someone else—like Mrs Astor—will attempt to guide Marian from a position of bigger wealth and more confidence, and cause a stir for her at home.

Maybe not. She seemed to go to the symphony with her aunt’s blessing. But still… that wasn’t advice. That was just society.

The Van Rhijns are very wealthy actually, I think an executive producer confirms that they are. 

[AntFTW]

12 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

As far as we know about Agnes she calls the old money crowd "rats" if they even accept some new money cash so I get a feeling she doesn't care what Mrs. Astor or the others really thinks.

I thought she was calling the Russells rats, not the old money crowd. As everyone was leaving behind George and Bertha, I interpreted Agnes as saying "we" (old New York) must follow the example of rats (the Russells). Everyone left the ship just as the rats did (everyone left behind the Russells).

Agnes absolutely cares what people in "old New York" society think. That is why she won't interact with the Russells. That is why she gave her "never the new" monologue in the first episode. That is why she highlighted her Livingston heritage in that same monologue, who had been in NY for the past 200 years and therefore are old NY. That is why she wants people to know with absolute certainty she is old NY. That is why Agnes commented that Aurora Fane and Anne Morris were a "glutton for punishment" for trying to organization another charity event and a "laughingstock" after being humiliated at their bazaar by George Russell.

For Agnes, "old New York" is security. She 100% cares what they think.

Edited February 19, 2022 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

57 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Even if he gets acceptance, I doubt Agnes would care, he still isn't "old money" in her eyes (aka having the pedigree and generations of wealth) 

I'll start with Agnes doesn't seem to like anyone. Everyone is on a scale of who annoys her less.

If Tom Raikes is welcomed into "old New York" society, she will be less annoyed by him. For other reasons, it's not only that he isn't in "old New York" society, she also thinks he's a shyster and an adventurer. Even if he gets past the "old NY" part, he has to overcome those opinions.

Edited February 19, 2022 by AntFTW

[KarenX]

39 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

The Van Rhijns are very wealthy actually, I think an executive producer confirms that they are. 

I believe you when you report that the executive producers say they are.

I will just rant a minute about executive producers and show runners and associated personnel filling in details that the show doesn’t show. I feel like this started with JK Rowling and I was never much of a “formalist” in literary criticism (I preferred new historicism) but Eff Me if I don’t finally see the point and wish that authors and producers and whoever would STFU and stop adding crap that isn’t supported by the text/work and calling it GDMF canon.

Sorry, Babybell, for springboarding my rant from your post. #CollateralDamage I graciously withdraw my assumption.

But for real. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by KarenX

[BabyBella94]

41 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I thought she was calling the Russells rats, not the old money crowd. As everyone was leaving behind George and Bertha, I interpreted Agnes as saying "we" (old New York) must follow the example of rats (the Russells). Everyone left the ship just as the rats did (everyone left behind the Russells).

Agnes absolutely care what people in "old New York" society think. That is why she won't interact with the Russells. That is why she gave her "never the new" monologue in the first episode. That is why she highlighted her Livingston heritage in that same monologue, who had been in NY for the past 200 years and therefore are old NY. That is why she wants people to know with absolute certainty she is old NY. That is why Agnes commented that Aurora Fane and Anne Morris were a "glutton for punishment" for trying to organization another charity event and a "laughingstock" after being humiliated at their bazaar by George Russell.

For Agnes, "old New York" is security. She 100% cares what they think.

The old money crowd started leaving after Mrs.Astor that's why she said "seems to me the ship is sinking, let us follow the example of rats" I took it as she was calling the old money crowd rats and Mrs.Astor too bc she left and everyone followed. 

I do believe she cares what they think but I don't think she truly cares if they accept some of the "new" people in. She will still to shun them even if everybody else will accept them, they just will never be good enough or "acceptable" in her eyes. 

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

I do believe she cares what they think but I don't think she truly cares if they accept some of the "new" people in. She will still to shun them even if everybody else will accept them, they just will never be good enough or "acceptable" in her eyes. 

I can see that. I think that's possible.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, BabyBella94 said:

The Van Rhijns are very wealthy actually, I think an executive producer confirms that they are. 

I see that.  Agnes had no problem giving Marian a whole new wardrobe of dresses, petticoats, hats, corsets.  And boots!  Plus, she gave her an allowance.  She's also supporting that entire house complete with multiple servants, butler, cook, and a personal secretary, not to mention Ada and Larry. 

I think all we know is the Van Rhijns are "in banking" but that's not terribly clear.

[BabyBella94]

Larry needs more screen time. Everyone has a plot/storyline but him so far. Even Turner has more of a story. 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, BabyBella94 said:

Larry needs more screen time. Everyone has a plot/storyline but him so far. Even Turner has more of a story. 

I agree.

Why was there a scene where Larry saved Aunt Ada's dog and got to know Marian when nothing followed of it? 

It's no wonder that Marian has begun to encourage Raikes as he is her only suitor. 

[OtterMommy]

16 hours ago, izabella said:

It's interesting that people are suspicious of Raikes, when he has seemed to be the most open and forward about his desires, motivations and plans.  Everyone else has been shown to be scheming, plotting, and manipulating while Raikes has spelled out exactly what he wants to the people he wants it from.  

Perhaps I read too much, but I am instantly suspicious of any male character with a name like Raikes.  I would expect him to be a ... rake of a character

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

...but when it comes to romance he's set on the bland woman he's met a few times as a client back in his small town of Pennsylvania. Like just...why? If she was Lady Mary I could at least understand it. She's written as a character like that. There can be a hometown girl who works that way as a character. Unfortunately, Marian just ain't it. She's neither shining with wholesomeness nor somebody who seems like she'd have fun helping him move up the ladder like Bertha. If she's supposed to have a spark, she doesn't.

It's the actress but it's also writing.

Usually when one feels empathy towards the heroine who in the beginning experiences a great loss, but that doesn't happen with Marian - maybe because she seems not grieve herself. 

Then the scene on the station when her ticket and money is stolen and Peggy saves her - it's Peggy one admires.

And it's Peggy who has plans to get her story published and after an initial failure she succeeds - she is again the one who acts which makes her the heroine, Marian's role is only that of the best friend to give encouragement, but she doesn't actually help,  unlike Lady Sybil who helped a maid to become a secretary. (Locking at the whole picture, it's of course good that a Black woman is presented to be a active subject, not an object of a White heroine.) 

So far, the only thing Marian has done is to defy her aunts' rules in secret, but these things seems trivial.

Also, the romance with Raikes is so far too easy. The first man she meets falls for her so hard that he is willing to do anything to marry her - she just waits for her aunts to accept him. 

[Pestilentia]

Quote

Quote

I get the feeling that Agnes, feeling the sting of genteel poverty, falls back on and clings to her name and the old ways.

The Van Rhijns are very wealthy actually, I think an executive producer confirms that they are.

Agnes is wealthy only because she married into the van Rhijn family- remember Marian's father Henry squandered the Brooks family money. She married van Rhijn as a way to save herself and Ada from that exact "genteel poverty" referenced above. If she felt threatened  enough to enter a loveless marriage purely for money then I think that qualifies as "having felt the sting of genteel poverty."

[Hiyo]

It seems Agnes was wealthy and then she wasn't and then she was again.

She'd probably have the same feelings about new money regardless if her brother had squandered the family fortune or not, and would have probably still married rich old money. The only difference being she might have taken the time to try and marry someone she actually liked instead of marrying the first rich guy who showed interest in her.

[AZChristian]

I think that had this story been taking place in Atlanta instead of New York, almost anyone who met Marian would say, "Well, bless her heart."

[KarenX]

Oscar is awfully fixated on marrying wealthy for a guy who is already so wealthy, if in fact they are so wealthy.

I suppose he could just be impatient to start an independent life instead of waiting for the death of his mother to transfer wealth to his control.

I do worry about Ada.

[Hiyo]

Believe it or not, some wealthy people are never satisfied with what they have. If he can have his old money inheritance and piece of the Russell's new money via marrying their daughter, why not...

[EtheltoTillie]

On 2/15/2022 at 1:46 AM, buttersister said:

Marian is the worst. 

Fellowes’ idea of a heroine? 🤮

In the after show Fellowes says she is a special observer to take the audience into various places. Too bad she’s a dolt. Also no one would say I’m here to surprise you in 1880, putting aside the racist cringe factor. 

[MissLucas]

7 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

In the after show Fellowes says she is a special observer to take the audience into various places.

Hmm, that reminds a bit of Fanny Price (Mansfield Park), another character I'm not particularly fond of. But unlike Marian Fanny was able to read a room, for an observer character Marian has an unfortunate knack to put her foot in it - s. also last episode where of all people Ada had to tell her to STFU. Sometimes I feel as if two different writers write for Marian 🤷‍♂️

[arty]

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't mind Marian. There is an openness to her that I enjoy, and I suppose she needs to be curious/friendly/naive if she is the audience's tour guide through the world of this show.

I also like that she got called out on her prejudices and rude behavior right away and without any sugarcoating. This makes her immediately more likable to me than Fellowes' beloved heroine of Downton Abbey, Lady Mary -- and the Russells!

How interesting that Agnes wants Marian to marry into Mrs. Astor's 400. I wonder if in this show the Van Rhijns are on that list. Does this mean that Marian and Gladys are (supposed to be)in competition for the same eligible young men...

I wish Agnes had told Ada the truth about what happened with Cornelius Eckhardt III -- both why their father rejected him in their youth and why Agnes sent him away last episode. Ada is supposed to be a sweet character, I get that. But sometimes she seems like a child, which is frustrating. 

[AntFTW]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I agree.

Why was there a scene where Larry saved Aunt Ada's dog and got to know Marian when nothing followed of it? 

It's no wonder that Marian has begun to encourage Raikes as he is her only suitor. 

I thought there would be more of Larry and Marian, beginning with saving Pumpkin and then Marian going to Bertha at-home event. They got along well and they are in close proximity with living across from one another. I thought there would have been more of a “Larry and Marian” thing. That seems to have fallen flat.

[KarenX]

2 hours ago, KarenX said:

Oscar is awfully fixated on marrying wealthy for a guy who is already so wealthy, if in fact they are so wealthy.

I suppose he could just be impatient to start an independent life instead of waiting for the death of his mother to transfer wealth to his control.

I do worry about Ada.

See… I have too much time on my hands this holiday weekend. I am still thinking about this show.

Maybe Oscar knows something about his family’s finances that Agnes doesn’t. He is a demonstrated secret-keeper; we know he can hide things. I don’t think calamity would wreck Agnes; she is capable and practical. But it would be interesting conflict. She seems to be the smartest person in the house. I would like to see her directly interact with Bertha, “man to man” as it were, without pretense. Bertha needs a worthy adversary and so far I haven’t seen anyone up to it.

[KarenX]

21 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I thought there would be more of Larry and Marian, beginning with saving Pumpkin and then Marian going to Bertha at-home event. They got along well and they are in close proximity with living across from one another. I thought there would have been more of a “Larry and Marian” thing. That seems to have fallen flat.

There is still lots if time for this. Marian has Lawyer on her mind right now but if Agnes starts engaging with the Russells and marrying off Marian for money then at least she had a palatable meet cute and we don’t have to worry she will be abused.

(Marian = marrying just like Raikes = rake)

For all that Bertha and Gladys are locked in a don’t grow up too fast phase/fill the ballroom delay, I think it is a happy family with good domestic role models. Larry isn’t going to have a dark side. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by KarenX

[BabyBella94]

20 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I thought there would be more of Larry and Marian, beginning with saving Pumpkin and then Marian going to Bertha at-home event. They got along well and they are in close proximity with living across from one another. I thought there would have been more of a “Larry and Marian” thing. That seems to have fallen flat.

I think there will be more of them. It's too good of a relationship to let go to waste. I don't think they would've showed that "meet cute" of them in the first episode for nothing.

[mansonlamps]

On 2/16/2022 at 9:07 PM, retired watcher said:

I may be wrong but I got the impression the butler was tying to help the Russell's butler by letting him know the proper way things should be done.

This is the way I saw it too, and I thought the Russell's butler seemed appreciative. 

On 2/16/2022 at 9:51 PM, Athena5217 said:

But she didn’t snub Mrs. Chamberlain. She was polite to her in the store and Mrs. C had to tell her they couldn’t hang out. This and her interactions with Peggy show how naive she is. She invited Peggy to her aunts’s house because it never occurred to her they wouldn’t want a Black woman in their house—just like it never occurred to her that a Black women wasn’t welcome in that store. Marian is prejudiced in thinking Peggy must be poor because she is Black, but I doubt she has had many relationships with Black people before Peggy.

Peggy is justified in her anger at Marian, but I hope she will forgive her because Marian does seem to like her and support her writing.

I agree,  Marian's life experience makes her extraordinarily naive, but nothing she has done indicates any sort of malice.   She didn't have the internet to expand her very limited exposure to the world while growing up in Pennsylvania so she's making judgements based on what she knows.  Unfortunately she also doesn't seem to be self aware enough to understand her own limitations in social situations. 

And don't judge me,  but while I am all for equality in nudity,  I have no desire to see the peen in my period dramas, I'm good with just chest/abs or a butt shot or two.  It doesn't really set my heart aflutter frankly.