S01.E01: Never the New

[MerBearHou]

I am looking forward to the rest of the episodes, but for me, this felt so different from Downton in that Gilded Age comes right out of the gate with so much snobbery and snide meanness.  I’m fine learning more about the old vs new money, but for episode one to be focused on making people feel they’re not good enough in such overt and covert ways wasn’t a great way to be drawn in.  I wanted to get more connected to these characters first, then even in episode two, start with the difficulties breaking into the old crowd.

I was, like others, surprised to see the lead actress in this role because she was just so blah and I fear that Fellowes cast her out of hope that she can be a young Meryl Streep.  She is sweet but bland.  I hope she improves and we connect with her more as the season unfolds.

The sisters are great — Christine and Cynthia.  Both are playing their parts beautifully and in such different ways.

Fellowes needed to help us “get to know” the various characters more but instead he just leapt right into things too soon that would have had more impact happening as the season went along.  

Edited January 28, 2022 by MerBearHou

[Haleth]

I don't mind that Marian defied her aunt by popping in at the party.  She's very young (18?), unfamiliar with Old NY customs, and seems to have been brought up to be somewhat outspoken in her rural PA home.  She is naive wrt how it looks to her aunts' set to have her befriend the Russell boy and Peggy.  Or maybe she thinks it's outdated thinking.  Marian is being written as a more modern girl and the conflict with her aunt makes her a more interesting character.  I like both Marian and Agnes; the script works fine for me.

[Shermie]

And geez, she’s young and bored and there’s a big (supposedly) party right across the street. Who wouldn’t go in that circumstance?

[izabella]

8 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

I am looking forward to the rest of the episodes, but for me, this felt so different from Downton in that Gilded Age comes right out of the gate with so much snobbery and snide meanness.  I’m fine learning more about the old vs new money, but for episode one to be focused on making people feel they’re not good enough in such overt and covert ways wasn’t a great way to be drawn in.  I wanted to get more connected to these characters first, then even in episode two, start with the difficulties breaking into the old crowd.

100% THIS.  They threw so much meanness into this episode, before we had a chance to even care about any of the characters.  Marian hates her aunts even before she meets them based on what her father told her, yet seemingly holds no animosity toward her father who left her penniless and homeless, as he did to his sisters, and doesn't question that maybe, just maybe, dear ole dad was the careless, uncaring dick, not her aunts.

Agnes hates on new money though she has never met any of the new money people.  Mrs. Russell wants nothing to do with her "old" friends, nor even her own sister, because she wants "new" friends who are the right sort socially.  Peggy hates her dad for shitting on her writing dreams (and possibly quashing a romance?), and refuses to even see him.   

I know it's the pilot and they were trying to set up the conflicts for the season, but it was too much conflict and snobbery and meanness among people whose names we're still struggling to learn, much less having any understanding of what leads them to their meanness. 

[peachmangosteen]

I had no plans on watching this as I never watched Downton Abbey, have no interest in period pieces, and prefer episodes to be like less than 40 minutes, but a friend said it was good so I thought what the hell. To my surprise, I really enjoyed it. 

[HappyHanna]

On 1/27/2022 at 6:53 PM, Roseanna said:

Because Fellowes thinks that "breaking the conventional rules" is something that makes the audience like the heroine who shows to be independent, brave and resourceful, whereas it's considered old-fashioned that if a grown-up person is materially dependent on an aunt, she must show herself grateful and do as the aunt says, how irrational the aunt's commands are. 

Actually, it's not hurting Agnes' feelings that is a problem but how she acts on them. Maybe she doesn't throw Marian in the street, but she can take back the allowance etc. 

But maybe she doesn't find out or if she does, Fellowes will swiftly make all OK. But he should really have chosen a better reason for Marian to defy her aunt - lying for a party may suit for a teenage girl but Marian is grown-up. 

Completely this. Throw in a little modern Marian (and if she grew up in rural PA, wouldn't she have been even more conservative than if she had grown up in NYC, old vs new money notwithstanding?), who will never face any consequences to her actions. 

We have seen this story before, she and the Russell's son (and whoever mentioned his Poldark character, 100%, I am sure he is a fine actor, but I can't unsee the annoying and naive Drake Carne) will be in love and it will be a Romeo and Juliet but with a happier ending. 

Why would Julian Fellowes ever allow a little reality spoil what is basically costume and setting porn? (I say as someone who always still watches)

[iMonrey]

Quote

In one respect you could say that all Fellowes is "lesser" Fellowes -- because even the gold standard Downton is ultimately a melodrama/soap opera dressed up in great costumes and scenery.  But it's acted by great actors and none of it takes anything away from my huge enjoyment of them all. 

Agreed. This isn't Shakespeare. It's costume porn. You can see the plot points coming a mile away: the inevitable romance between Marian and Larry. The snubbing of Mrs. Russell. Even Oscar's sexuality - my God, those rose tinted glasses to match his rose-tinted outfit at Mrs. Fish's party. Talk about overkill.

But - it's so easy to follow. Yes, the characters are two-dimensional but it makes them easy to understand. The whole thing is just brain candy. 

[Roseanna]

On 1/28/2022 at 1:05 PM, MerBearHou said:

I am looking forward to the rest of the episodes, but for me, this felt so different from Downton in that Gilded Age comes right out of the gate with so much snobbery and snide meanness.  I’m fine learning more about the old vs new money, but for episode one to be focused on making people feel they’re not good enough in such overt and covert ways wasn’t a great way to be drawn in.  I wanted to get more connected to these characters first, then even in episode two, start with the difficulties breaking into the old crowd.

 

22 hours ago, izabella said:

100% THIS.  They threw so much meanness into this episode, before we had a chance to even care about any of the characters.  Marian hates her aunts even before she meets them based on what her father told her, yet seemingly holds no animosity toward her father who left her penniless and homeless, as he did to his sisters, and doesn't question that maybe, just maybe, dear ole dad was the careless, uncaring dick, not her aunts.

Agnes hates on new money though she has never met any of the new money people.  Mrs. Russell wants nothing to do with her "old" friends, nor even her own sister, because she wants "new" friends who are the right sort socially.  Peggy hates her dad for shitting on her writing dreams (and possibly quashing a romance?), and refuses to even see him.   

There was also much meanness and snobbery in Downton Abbey from the beginning. In the pilot Lady Mary complained that she had to wear black for her cousin and declared herself to be grateful that the mourning period was short because their engagement hadn't been published yet. Edith was envious of her elder sister and took the possibility to reproach her behavior. The whole Crawley family and also their servants were prejudiced toward the next their who was only a middle-class attorney although they had never met him.

On the other hand, it was a good idea from Fellowes to let the Turkish diplomat to die in Mary's bed because the audience was hooked: would anyone learn about the happening and what would the consequences be? (Only, Fellowes insisted that it wasn't a rape when a man comes uninvited to a woman's bedroom and threatens her that she yells for help, he will ruin her reputation by saying that she had invited her).  

The Gilded Age needs some plot that has real stakes to characters - even if Fellowes orders so that all ends happily, as is his habit.

[mojito]

On 1/28/2022 at 5:05 AM, MerBearHou said:

I am looking forward to the rest of the episodes, but for me, this felt so different from Downton in that Gilded Age comes right out of the gate with so much snobbery and snide meanness. 

Downton Abbey took place in the countryside; others of their wealth were  miles and miles away. On a day-to-day basis, they had little contact with commoners or anyone else. 

The Gilded Age takes place in a small section of NYC. That's significantly different than DA. Estate vs city blocks, a neighborhood.  The competition for the most lavish homes, carriages, clothes, parties, etc., among these people in Manhattan was real.

Living right across the street from one of the largest manors on Park Ave-- built by upstart new-moneyed people--would have irritated most people, I think.  Assuming that this show takes place in this Fifth Avenue region, I see no better way to start this series than to show how much people tried to outdo each other by building these monstrosities and how resentful they were of outsiders who out-built them. 

[An aside: I think that a person like van Rhijn herself, having come from PA and married into NY society, herself would have been looked upon as new money or somehow less in NYC, too (behind her back). ]

Edited January 29, 2022 by mojito

[izabella]

48 minutes ago, mojito said:

[An aside: I think that a person like van Rhijn herself, having come from PA and married into NY society, herself would have been looked upon as new money or somehow less in NYC, too (behind her back). ]

Oh, no, Agnes and Ada, and Marian, are Livingstons!  Who can be traced to the 1600's!  Old NY, and "don't let anyone tell you different!"

[yellowjacket]

On 1/26/2022 at 4:31 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

I have also recently heard this accent called Transatlantic:  think Cary Grant and Katharine Hepburn in The Philadelphia Story. TCM showed a segment on it the other day.  I’ve always heard it called Larchmont Lockjaw.  Christine Baranski speaks this way now IRL. Even though she came from a Polish family in Buffalo. In the CBS interview she describes changing her voice at Juilliard. 

I've always called it Locust Valley Lockjaw.  Same thing.

[yellowjacket]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:41 AM, Nedsdag said:

The book Ragtime by E.L. Doctorow discusses the scandal, It was also adapted into a 1981 film directed by Milos Forman.

Also, see the film The Girl in the Red Velvet Swing starring Joan Collins, who played Evelyn Nesbitt to Ray Milland's Stanford White. 

 

Elizabeth McGovern, Countess Cora Grantham on Downton, played Evelyn Nesbit in the 1981 movie.  Got an Oscar nomination.  She was real young and just stunning.

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, yellowjacket said:

I've always called it Locust Valley Lockjaw.  Same thing.

yes, Locust Valley is a big society area on north shore Nassau County.  I've heard it called that too! 

[EtheltoTillie]

My doctor's office is now on the exact same corner as this fictional mansion, 61st and Fifth, but it probably was a mansion at some point.  It's now home to a tall modern apartment building. 

[TV Anonymous]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:26 AM, Bliss said:

She's Meryl Streep's daughter... her name is Louisa Jacobson.

No wonder she looks like Mamie and Grace Gummer. Why is her name not Gummer?

[PRgal]

7 minutes ago, TV Anonymous said:

No wonder she looks like Mamie and Grace Gummer. Why is her name not Gummer?

So she wouldn't be associated with her family?

 

ETA:  I had to edit this five times to fix it!

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by PRgal

[Pestilentia]

On 1/27/2022 at 7:09 PM, hatchetgirl said:

This was abysmal and painful. The script is stilted, the acting a rough and stodgy, just awful. I LOVED the sets and clothing and food and stuff, but it just felt not right.

Well, to be fair it was the pilot episode and I try to give a series at least two or three eps to find their footing.

[OtterMommy]

Please keep conversation in the episode theads to this show (and this episode, although references to past episodes are fine).  If you would like to compare this show to other Fellowes shows, I have created this thread for that purpose.  Thanks.

[Carolina Girl]

Interesting that Bretha does not see her OWN hypocrisy im her ire over "Old" New York's lack of acceptance.

Before the "at home", George tells her "I wish you had invited a few of our old friends" to which she replies "I want NEW friends."  So apparently those people they knew coming up are indeed no longer good enough for them and their ambitions.   In fact, she seems somewhat miffed that George's business contacts were invited.

You have no room to complian, honey.  You are doing to your fiends what OLD New York is doing to you.  Anyone else think that if one of her lower "Fifth Avenue" friends showed up that she wouldn't give them the same treatment as Mrs. Fish gave to her?

[Shermie]

Quote

Interesting that Bretha does not see her OWN hypocrisy im her ire over "Old" New York's lack of acceptance.

Before the "at home", George tells her "I wish you had invited a few of our old friends" to which she replies "I want NEW friends."  

Yes, it was a terrible thing to say. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to dislike Bertha for her hypocrisy and thirstiness, or admire her for spunk and ambition. I really like Carrie Coon, so I have a problem disliking her character by association. I’m really here to see her wreak her revenge.

Quote

Assuming that this show takes place in this Fifth Avenue region, I see no better way to start this series than to show how much people tried to outdo each other by building these monstrosities and how resentful they were of outsiders who out-built them.

People still get their panties in a twist about someone in their neighbourhood building an unseemly large showy house. Suburbs are known for their sameness, so when the first McMansions started popping up, they stood out. Now there are suburbs filled with only McMansions, and better suburbs with even bigger versions. So I guess some things never change. In the Gilded Age era, the extra layer of class snobbery was piled on.

[PRgal]

50 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Yes, it was a terrible thing to say. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to dislike Bertha for her hypocrisy and thirstiness, or admire her for spunk and ambition. I really like Carrie Coon, so I have a problem disliking her character by association. I’m really here to see her wreak her revenge.

People still get their panties in a twist about someone in their neighbourhood building an unseemly large showy house. Suburbs are known for their sameness, so when the first McMansions started popping up, they stood out. Now there are suburbs filled with only McMansions, and better suburbs with even bigger versions. So I guess some things never change. In the Gilded Age era, the extra layer of class snobbery was piled on.

And when they’re all McMansions, then it’s about even bigger ones, especially if a celebrity is moving in (see my post about Drake’s house).

 

 

[MissLucas]

4 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Interesting that Bretha does not see her OWN hypocrisy im her ire over "Old" New York's lack of acceptance.

Before the "at home", George tells her "I wish you had invited a few of our old friends" to which she replies "I want NEW friends."  So apparently those people they knew coming up are indeed no longer good enough for them and their ambitions.   In fact, she seems somewhat miffed that George's business contacts were invited.

You have no room to complian, honey.  You are doing to your fiends what OLD New York is doing to you.  Anyone else think that if one of her lower "Fifth Avenue" friends showed up that she wouldn't give them the same treatment as Mrs. Fish gave to her?

I haven't made up my mind yet if I like Bertha* or not so I'm not defending her here. But for a character hell-bent on social climbing her position makes total sense. She wants to leave her old life and her old friends behind - there's no room for them anymore. For Agnes it's never the New - for Bertha it's never the Old. 

*I wait for more backstory, the bit about her mother sounded intriguing.

[poeticlicensed]

I'm getting Edith Wharton vibes which i love. But please please don't make it a happily ever after love conquers all ending with Marian and the guy across the street. Edith wouldn't like that

[izabella]

4 hours ago, Shermie said:

Yes, it was a terrible thing to say. I’m not sure if we’re supposed to dislike Bertha for her hypocrisy and thirstiness, or admire her for spunk and ambition. I really like Carrie Coon, so I have a problem disliking her character by association. I’m really here to see her wreak her revenge.

I'm guessing we're supposed to both dislike her and admire her.  I felt sad for her when her party turned out badly; she was obviously heartbroken and felt humiliated.  I'm curious why status is so important to her that it is her driving force.

58 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I haven't made up my mind yet if I like Bertha* or not so I'm not defending her here. But for a character hell-bent on social climbing her position makes total sense. She wants to leave her old life and her old friends behind - there's no room for them anymore. For Agnes it's never the New - for Bertha it's never the Old. 

*I wait for more backstory, the bit about her mother sounded intriguing.

It's interesting that she included her sister among the old friends that she didn't want to see.  Her husband suggesting she invite her sister implies they have a decent or at least some kind of relationship.  Would Bertha really drop her sister just because is she part of the Old? 

 

[sistermagpie]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:36 AM, HappyHanna said:

Completely this. Throw in a little modern Marian (and if she grew up in rural PA, wouldn't she have been even more conservative than if she had grown up in NYC, old vs new money notwithstanding?), who will never face any consequences to her actions. 

 

Which is a shame, because it seems like it would be a great plot point to start Marian off by seriously angering her aunts to create some conflict. And all to get into a party that turned out to be a complete dud too. She would have had the same experience if she'd just gone over to borrow a cup of sugar the following afternoon!

[Roseanna]

13 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Interesting that Bretha does not see her OWN hypocrisy im her ire over "Old" New York's lack of acceptance.

Before the "at home", George tells her "I wish you had invited a few of our old friends" to which she replies "I want NEW friends."  So apparently those people they knew coming up are indeed no longer good enough for them and their ambitions.   In fact, she seems somewhat miffed that George's business contacts were invited.

You have no room to complian, honey.  You are doing to your fiends what OLD New York is doing to you.  Anyone else think that if one of her lower "Fifth Avenue" friends showed up that she wouldn't give them the same treatment as Mrs. Fish gave to her?

Actually she does worse to her (and her husband's) old friends, especially her sister. They have known for years and (I suppose) shared joys and sorrows and supported each other.

I don't like the old New York's snobbery but they are *not* her friends and therefore own her nothing. She wants to get an equal social status to herself and her family with them by bribing them (house, parties, money to charities). But that isn't friendship.    

[Hiyo]

I'm kind of torn on whether to continue. I love the lavish look of the show, and I like the acting, but to be honest, I am a bit bored of the whole new money vs old money and upstairs/downstairs dynamic we see in shows and movies like this. I did enjoy Downton Abbey, but even then, I cared more about the richies than I did about the poors (Gosford Park being an exception, since I thought it was a more cynical but also more realistic depiction of British aristocracy and their servants).

Granted, I realize you need the 2 conflicts for the drama for shows/movies like this, but I am drawn more to the lavish lifestyles of the richies as a nice escapist fantasy built on realism. As much as I enjoyed DA, I was a bit disappointed that in 6 seasons we only got 1 episode that took place during The Season, even thought I understand the budget probably could not handle multiple episodes taking place during The Season. I do hope we get to see the extravagant and lavish lifestyles these people led.

Interesting that people are comparing this show to DA, due to Julian Fellowes and whatnot...but if anything, I will be comparing it to The Age of Innocence.

[Carolina Girl]

34 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

I'm kind of torn on whether to continue. I love the lavish look of the show, and I like the acting, but to be honest, I am a bit bored of the whole new money vs old money and upstairs/downstairs dynamic we see in shows and movies like this. I did enjoy Downton Abbey, but even then, I cared more about the richies than I did about the poors (Gosford Park being an exception, since I thought it was a more cynical but also more realistic depiction of British aristocracy and their servants).

Granted, I realize you need the 2 conflicts for the drama for shows/movies like this, but I am drawn more to the lavish lifestyles of the richies as a nice escapist fantasy built on realism. As much as I enjoyed DA, I was a bit disappointed that in 6 seasons we only got 1 episode that took place during The Season, even thought I understand the budget probably could not handle multiple episodes taking place during The Season. I do hope we get to see the extravagant and lavish lifestyles these people led.

Interesting that people are comparing this show to DA, due to Julian Fellowes and whatnot...but if anything, I will be comparing it to The Age of Innocence.

I want to see where it goes tonight.  It's telling to me that I am FAR more interested in Peggy's backstory than Bertha's social climbing.  

[MissLucas]

Peggy's plot and backstory is the most interesting part of the show so far. I'll keep watching anyway  because I love Baranski and Nixon and because I want to see if Fellows dares to smash the trope and lets Marion end up with the provincial lawyer type. But after reading about the involvement of Erica Dunbar in the production, Peggy became the main hook.

[Words]

Episode 2 does not air until Tuesday, Feb. 1

[izabella]

55 minutes ago, Words said:

Episode 2 does not air until Tuesday, Feb. 1

My guide is showing it is airing tonight, Jan. 31.

[JenE4]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:39 AM, ombre said:

For those who are mystified by Carrie coons' hats and whatnot, she's being shown to not *get* style. The blue ensemble was too much for going out visiting (shiny cloth in daylight? :shudder:), the dress for the charity shindig was similarly too much - the overall shape was probably fine, but the asymmetrical folderol at the neck shows how off-center she is, how much she doesn't get proper style of the day, how much she doesn't fit it. I suspect this will change over time, but you're not supposed to think she dresses well now. 

 

Maybe I watch too many reality shows, but I took Mrs Russel’s approach to style similar to a Real Housewife. She’s trying WAY too hard to wear what she’s convinced is chic simply because they are the most expensive and elaborate frocks she can find, and she ends up looking like Dorit from Beverly Hills who wears nothing but head to toe labels or Meredith from Salt Lake City who is bedecked in feathers every chance she can get for some entirely unknown reason. Mrs Russel’s approach to fashion is the same as her approach to house design. Maybe she is “ahead of the trends” because that’s incredibly important to her, but all of the Old Money ladies have never seen such audaciousness, and they think she’s ridiculous—and even more proof that she doesn’t “belong” here with us.

What’s curious to me is the servant (lady in waiting? house manager? not sure what her name or job is) who is from an old monied house and is there to teach Mrs Russel the ways of society. She puts her in these elaborate getups and then just says the broach is too much—otherwise you’re perfect. She obviously has a lot of animosity—despite Mrs Russel likely giving her a decent salary and a place to live—and she seems to be setting Mrs Russel up for failure rather than helping her assimilate. Why? What would she have to gain other than losing her job—so I think there’s some conspiracy brewing there.

On 1/28/2022 at 7:06 AM, Haleth said:

I don't mind that Marian defied her aunt by popping in at the party.  She's very young (18?), unfamiliar with Old NY customs, and seems to have been brought up to be somewhat outspoken in her rural PA home.  She is naive wrt how it looks to her aunts' set to have her befriend the Russell boy and Peggy.  Or maybe she thinks it's outdated thinking.  Marian is being written as a more modern girl and the conflict with her aunt makes her a more interesting character.  I like both Marian and Agnes; the script works fine for me.

It’s not just Marian who’s young and doesn’t know better, IMO. But I think they’re setting up a dynamic that it’s not just Old Money vs New Money, but Old Generation vs Modern Generation. We have the older aunts and their ilk who are all about preserving the old customs, and then the younger generation of characters are all about breaking that mold and forming their own paths. This includes Peggy wanting to be a journalist vs her parents who want her to follow what’s expected of them. This was even evident by the mother not approving of where they met for lunch. But other simple comments about not wanting to play the parlor game, or the Astor girl confronting her mother about missing the Russel’s party. The Russels appear to be sandwiched right between these two generations—or whatever we would have called Gen X back then (as opposed to the Boomer aunts and their ilk vs the Millennial Peggy/Marian/Larry/etc.) But I think we’re going to see the younger generation stirring things up and changing New York society not just the New Monied.

[Sarah 103]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:03 PM, vesperholly said:

The photography (filmography?) was also really terrible - overly bright scenes, flat lighting and garish colors.

Even though it's TV, I think cinematography is is the best word for what you are describing. Photography is for still images and filmography usually refers to a list of movies a person made, worked on, or acted in. 

On 1/26/2022 at 1:59 AM, Cheezwiz said:

Who was Oscar (Aunt Agnes's son) making out with in his bedroom? Was it a friend from Newport or a servant? I couldn't ID his character.

He was a friend, but I'm not sure if we saw him in the Newport scenes. I think his name was John Adams (and there was a number after it, but I'm not sure what it was).

On 1/26/2022 at 3:45 PM, Roseanna said:

with Ada in the same house, Agnes had no need be alone with her husband (except in the bedroom, horrible enough).

I think this may be the answer. Agnes did not want to be alone with her husband any more or any longer than she had to, so having her spinster sister live with them was a perfect excuse. 

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

But I think they’re setting up a dynamic that it’s not just Old Money vs New Money, but Old Generation vs Modern Generation. We have the older aunts and their ilk who are all about preserving the old customs, and then the younger generation of characters are all about breaking that mold and forming their own paths. 

I agree with you. I got the sense that the younger generation isn't invested in or doesn't care about the old money/new money distinctions the way thier parental figures do. I didn't get the sense that anyone in the younger generation was snubbing Larry Russell at the Newport party or questioning whether he belonged there.   

Hopefully can someone can answer a question I have. Why would Gladys not being out in society yet impact her ability to do charity work? Were attending balls a major part of charity work? 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sarah 103

[izabella]

31 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Hopefully can someone can answer a question I have. Why would Gladys not being out in society yet impact her ability to do charity work? Were attending balls a major part of charity work? 

I think it means she is still considered a "child" and too young to be taking part in grown-up activities, like charity work.  She would be expected to be "sheltered" from the world because of her young age.  Kind of like turning 18 makes you an adult these days, legally.  In their society, not being out means you're not yet an adult.

Edited January 31, 2022 by izabella

[Angeleyes]

2 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Maybe I watch too many reality shows, but I took Mrs Russel’s approach to style similar to a Real Housewife. She’s trying WAY too hard to wear what she’s convinced is chic simply because they are the most expensive and elaborate frocks she can find, and she ends up looking like Dorit from Beverly Hills who wears nothing but head to toe labels or Meredith from Salt Lake City who is bedecked in feathers every chance she can get for some entirely unknown reason. Mrs Russel’s approach to fashion is the same as her approach to house design. Maybe she is “ahead of the trends” because that’s incredibly important to her, but all of the Old Money ladies have never seen such audaciousness, and they think she’s ridiculous—and even more proof that she doesn’t “belong” here with us.

What’s curious to me is the servant (lady in waiting? house manager? not sure what her name or job is) who is from an old monied house and is there to teach Mrs Russel the ways of society. She puts her in these elaborate getups and then just says the broach is too much—otherwise you’re perfect. She obviously has a lot of animosity—despite Mrs Russel likely giving her a decent salary and a place to live—and she seems to be setting Mrs Russel up for failure rather than helping her assimilate. Why? What would she have to gain other than losing her job—so I think there’s some conspiracy brewing there.

I wondered the same thing. For instance, why was Bertha hand delivering the  invitations to her party? Maybe I’ve read too many Regency novels, but I thought those were always supposed to be delivered by a footman or butler or something. Delivering one’s own invitations would be considered manual labor and just not done. I’m sure Bertha probably got help in creating the invitations. Why wouldn’t someone have advised her in what is proper? 

[JasonCC]

Rewatched the 2nd half because I had too many glasses of wine.

So. regarding Bertha why was she so blatantly mean with the woman who was clearly the one token ambassador among the (old NY) charity set sent to just make a brief appearance.  Yes, it stung to know just one junior friend was being sent and the others weren't coming. However, couldn't Bertha have shown her the best time ever, gushed over her, impressed her with the place, and played the slow game to win her over as a first little entryway into her friend group? If she was the junior member of their friend group--and the one used to just do a brief courtesy call--she's probably a little insecure and more open to having someone even richer dote on her. 

I read a book years ago where an 1870s tomboyish character who was "looser" with her friendships as she had a devil-may-care attitude toward that type of thing (even though her pedigree via her parents was impeccable) was being used by those just under her status in terms of social climbing as their "in". They befriended her, then maximized the connections made through her. 

Not that I admire this in Bertha, but if she's that manipulating and calculating I think showing the token ambassador (name? Sorry!) the door that abruptly was a mistake. Maybe Bertha is torn herself between wanting admission to that society OR hating their hypocrisy and just wanting to be richer and humiliate them?

When the little orange spaniel almost got crushed under the carriage:

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by JasonCC

[Sarah 103]

@JasonCC When I saw Pumpkin licking/kissing Marian after the near miss, I was imagining the dog (who I imagine as ahead of her time and genre savvy) thinking "I made a meet cute happen. Aren't you happy?"  

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sarah 103
fixed a typo

[JasonCC]

Is Pumpkin an English Spaniel btw?

[blackwing]

I really enjoyed this.  I'm looking forward to learning more about each character.  I was a bit confused as to who I was supposed to like and who I was supposed to dislike.  Who is the heroine of this story?  Is it the fresh faced Marian Brook?  New to the city and society, she is eager and gives a new perspective on the world she is suddenly thrust into.  Or is it the bold and ambitious Bertha Russell?  She has finally moved into her completed and furnished mansion, and she will use her husband's money to gain stature for herself and her children.

Frankly, I was a little annoyed with Marian, and I despised Bertha.  I thought Marian was an ungrateful little naive twit.  She sat her purse on top of her bags at the train station and lost all her money and tickets.  She arrives penniless on the door of her aunts' house.  She just didn't seem particularly grateful.  It's obvious her Aunt Agnes is proud to call Marian her niece, even though she hardly even knows her, and is determined to take care of her and afford her all the luxuries that her old money family can give her.  Yet Marian wastes no time in deciding this kind of life isn't for her, and openly lies to and defies her aunt.

I thought Bertha was a complete snob.  I found myself wondering where they used to live, and why she never thought to get involved in society before she moved into the mansion.  Judging from the size of the building that her husband's company is in, it's obvious he is extremely wealthy and successful, and that didn't happen overnight.  The Russells have been wealthy for a while.  So why wouldn't she have tried to meet society ladies before?  She could have gone to these club meetings before, even if she wasn't in a mansion.  It's like all of a sudden now, the light has been switched on and now she thinks she is one of them.

She immediately decides she will no longer associate with her old friends because now they aren't good enough for her.  I thought it was poetic justice that her party was a disaster.  Money is no object to her, but what a waste of the food.  Why couldn't she at least have let the staff eat some of it?

From watching the trailer, I was convinced that Bertha was going to be the undoubted heroine of this story, trying to make it into society while being thwarted by the nasty evil snob Agnes.  The trailer made it look like Christine Baranski was going to be the main villain of the show.  But I found the episode to portray her completely differently.  Yes, she is proud of her "old New York" heritage and wants things to remain the same.  But instead of being cold and heartless, on the contrary, she showed herself to be warm and compassionate.  She took in her orphaned niece and is determined to have her be instantly considered part of the family.  She showed kindness to the black woman who helped Marian out, and even gave her a full time job and a room in the house, despite the objections of some of the staff.

I also really liked Cynthia Nixon's portrayal of Ada.  I have only seen her in "Sex and the City" and "World Without End".  Miranda Hobbes was the only one of the four SATC friends that I truly disliked.  And Petronilla in the Ken Follett miniseries was truly a piece of work.  So I was surprised at how much I liked her here.  Ada is a very kind person, and almost childlike sometimes.

Peggy Scott is a great character, as is her mom.  I am liking the friendship developing between Peggy and Marian, it almost feels like a Lady Mary / Anna friendship.

No real impression formed yet about the other young adults.  It was obvious to me from the minute he opened his mouth and his mannerisms that we were going to have a "shocking" reveal that Agnes' son is gay.  And he is hooking up with a grandson (or was it great grandson?) of John Quincy Adams.  Surprised the show would give this friend a tie to an actual family.  There are thousands of Adams descendants alive today, I wonder if this person was a real person, and if so, these descendants are probably wondering which branch of the Adams family this person is supposed to be in.

On 1/25/2022 at 5:50 AM, Haleth said:

Funny, watching the trailer I had such sympathy for Bertha Russell vs that mean Old NY establishment, yet watching the show she comes across as so pushy and vulgar.  I can see her someday shopping her daughter to British nobility to impress Mrs Astor.  No wonder the sisters want to avoid her. 

 

 

On 1/27/2022 at 1:03 AM, izabella said:

I wish I liked Carrie Coons even half as much as everyone here does, because it seems she is a main focus of the story. Maybe it's the characters I've seen her play, but Coons leaves me cold, as does Mrs. Russell.  Here, she has a perpetual "who peed in my punchbowl?" pinched attitude.  Old NY may not accept her regardless, but her considerable lack of charm or grace sure is making it easy for Old NY to turn away from her.

This is exactly how I feel about this character.  The trailer made me sympathetic to her, I was prepared to root for her as she battled the evil Christine Baranski.  But I find her to be a terrible snob who thinks that her husband's money can buy her respect, and she acts like she should be the queen of the ball with every move she makes.

I love that one of her own staff is constantly trashing her, because honestly, she deserves it.

[Cheezwiz]

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

This is exactly how I feel about this character.  The trailer made me sympathetic to her, I was prepared to root for her as she battled the evil Christine Baranski.  But I find her to be a terrible snob who thinks that her husband's money can buy her respect, and she acts like she should be the queen of the ball with every move she makes.

I love that one of her own staff is constantly trashing her, because honestly, she deserves it.

Yeah, I'm on the same page. At the moment it feels like there's no one to root for. Bertha is a conniving snob who will step on anyone to get where she's going, so it's really hard to sympathize with her disaster of a party. I was quite pleased it was a bust. As detailed above by other posters, she's not even particularly clever - rather than throwing an elaborate shin-dig, why not quietly begin making inroads with a tea, and dazzling those on the lower rungs of old society?

And Marion isn't really grabbing me so far as a character. It may be a combination of writing and wooden acting - maybe she'll grow on me, but thus far, she doesn't seem terribly bright either. Aunt Agnes is not the uptight baddie as presented in the previews, and were I in Marion's shoes, I'd feel immensely grateful to be under her roof.

I guess the only characters I really like are Miss Scott and the aunts - particularly Cynthia Nixon as Aunt Ada. She's been bugging the hell out of me with her reprisal of Miranda in the SATC reboot, but she's so lovable on this series.

I'm still here for the sets and costumes.

 

[Sakura12]

30 minutes ago, blackwing said:

She immediately decides she will no longer associate with her old friends because now they aren't good enough for her.  I thought it was poetic justice that her party was a disaster.  Money is no object to her, but what a waste of the food.  Why couldn't she at least have let the staff eat some of it?

She told the staff to give the food the poor. The chef later complained that he didn't make all that food so the poor people could eat it. 

For Bertha it's more about status then friendship. She didn't grow up with money and probably envied them. Then she lucked into marrying an ambitious man that finally made them wealthy enough to reach that status. So it's all she cares about. It's annoying and makes her look desperate. I don't think we are supposed to be rooting for her. Her party being a failure was a given and not at all surprising.

Marion is dull. It seems none of Meryl Streep's daughters got her talent. Changing her name doesn't stop the nepotism, everyone in the industry knows who her mother is. A more engaging actress might very brought more the character. 

I'd rather follow Peggy's story of a black woman trying to be a writer. The old money vs new money is only interesting for the costumes.

I do like Agnes and Ada. The trailers did make it seem like she was the villian. When she is just proud of her heritage, she's not outright evil. She hired a black woman because she had good penmanship and made sure she reached out to her parents. And this is a much better role for Cynthia Nixon after whatever the did over on the Sex and the City reboot. 

[Melina22]

51 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Marion is dull. It seems none of Meryl Streep's daughters got her talent. C

I agree about Marian, but one of Meryl's daughters (I think Mamie?) was incredible in Mr. Robot. 

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, JasonCC said:

Is Pumpkin an English Spaniel btw?

Pumpkin is a Cavalier King Charles spaniel. 

[peachmangosteen]

19 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I agree about Marian, but one of Meryl's daughters (I think Mamie?) was incredible in Mr. Robot. 

Grace.

I find myself really looking forward to this tonight, which is surprising since it's gonna be 90 damn minutes. GAH!

[caitmcg]

4 hours ago, JasonCC said:

So. regarding Bertha why was she so blatantly mean with the woman who was clearly the one token ambassador among the (old NY) charity set sent to just make a brief appearance.  Yes, it stung to know just one junior friend was being sent and the others weren't coming. However, couldn't Bertha have shown her the best time ever, gushed over her, impressed her with the place, and played the slow game to win her over as a first little entryway into her friend group? If she was the junior member of their friend group--and the one used to just do a brief courtesy call--she's probably a little insecure and more open to having someone even richer dote on her. 

Bertha clocked, and the woman pretty much admitted, that she was only making her brief appearance because they wanted Bertha to open her formidable coffers to give money to their charity, and that’s why Bertha was so resentful. It was graceless and won’t do her any favors to speak to her guest that way, but the very broad point the show is making is that the old money set is only going to find the arrivistes tacky and grasping, at least at the level of showy and aggressive Bertha Russell is pushing. 

[kristen111]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:26 AM, Bliss said:

She's Meryl Streep's daughter... her name is Louisa Jacobson.

I knew it!  There was something very familiar about her.  Well, I’m not surprised.  I love, love this series.  Old New York, the scenery, the costumes, Cynthia Nixon. What a great cast.  The train .. I was beside myself.  Love it.   Looks like we will be seeing the lawyer again.  Love interest?

[larapu2000]

It's like Julian Fellowes is trying to steal from Edith Wharton and didn't even go to the effort to read her books.  

[vavera4ka]

Came in for Baranski, but then I saw Blake Ritson. 

Definitely staying 😃

[Shermie]

Christine Baranski is one of those actors who always elevates everything they’re in.

Quote

Marion is dull. It seems none of Meryl Streep's daughters got her talent. Changing her name doesn't stop the nepotism, everyone in the industry knows who her mother is. A more engaging actress might very brought more the character. 

Imagine Lily James in this role.

[cameron]

Did anyone notice the resemblance on that portrait to Leonarea Hemsley,