Fellowes Fellows: Comparing The Gilded Age to other Julian Fellowes Shows

[OtterMommy]

Here is where you can compare and contrast this show with other shows by Julian Fellowes.  Part of the comparison must be The Gilded Age, or else your post will be completely off topic and belongs in the Small Talk thread.  

Please keep in mind that spoilers for other Julian Fellowes shows may appear in this thread (spoilers for The Gilded Age are not allowed and posts that contain them will be removed).

[Brn2bwild]

I like this show so far, but found the characters in Belgravia more compelling and sympathetic, even Oliver Trenchard and his dissatisfied wife.  You had a mystery and real stakes.  I don't know how many seasons it could have gone on since Charles Pope and Maria Grey seemed to be the least compelling characters, but it was a good ride.  

[RedHawk]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:49 AM, Brn2bwild said:

I like this show so far, but found the characters in Belgravia more compelling and sympathetic, even Oliver Trenchard and his dissatisfied wife.  You had a mystery and real stakes.  I don't know how many seasons it could have gone on since Charles Pope and Maria Grey seemed to be the least compelling characters, but it was a good ride.  

I think "Belgravia" was supposed to be a one-season series, and that originally it was supposed to be a couple more episodes in length (maybe 10 vs 8) but was then limited, so they had to stuff too much Into the final two episodes. Although everything got wrapped up, the ending felt rushed. There was a sense of urgency that worked well in some ways, but I still wished some story lines could have played out more slowly.

Edited February 12, 2022 by RedHawk

[Roseanna]

On 2/8/2022 at 9:49 AM, Brn2bwild said:

even Oliver Trenchard and his dissatisfied wife.  You had a mystery and real stakes. 

Yes, that was at least a surprise, including that Oliver's mother knew and accepted her daughter-in-law's baby as her son's child. 

[blackwing]

Some have compared Turner, Bertha Russell's lady's maid, to Miss O'Brien, Cora Crawley's lady's maid.  I don't think I really see the comparison, other than both seem to be roundly disliked.

Turner is ambitious.  She appears to greatly dislike Bertha Russell and said she doesn't intend to be a servant her whole life.  She seems to be looking for a way to elevate her position in life.  She is willing to be Oscar Van Rhijn's spy in the household in exchange for money and she is hoping to eventually get out.

O'Brien was a thoroughly nasty person and often conspired with Thomas Barrow against Bates, Lord Grantham's valet.  I can't remember the exact reason, but they disliked him and were always trying to get him sacked or in trouble.  She thought that Cora was going to fire her, so she left a bar of soap out on the floor so that Cora would slip.  Cora slipped, and miscarried a potential male heir.  Cora later almost died because of Spanish flu.  O'Brien was genuinely remorseful and cried tears at Cora's bedside vigil, but did not confess.  She seemed to genuinely care for Cora and the family.

I don't think the comparison between Turner and O'Brien is a good one.  Turner is ambitious and really dislikes Bertha.  She tried to seduce George to try and get him to dump Bertha.  It didn't work, and she is still in the house, playing her role.  She hasn't brought any harm to the family, unlike O'Brien.  O'Brien caused the loss of a potential male heir (which would have helped the family avoid the succession problem) and there was some business with Bates' ex-wife that she tracked down that almost harmed the family's reputation.  She did feel bad about it though.

I think a more apt comparison is Armstrong and O'Brien.  Both very nasty, both very unhappy with their lot in life, takes it out on everyone around them.  Armstrong and O'Brien both are willing to hurt others in order to get their station in life advanced.  Armstrong is a classic passive-aggressive gossip.  I am glad that Agnes shut her down.  The main difference between these two is that Armstrong is blatantly obvious about what she is trying to do, while O'Brien was a lot more subtle.

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

So far we haven't had what I disliked about Belgravia, which was that everything worked out for Charles Pope thanks to multiple fairy godparents working behind the scenes without him having to do anything.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

 O'Brien caused the loss of a potential male heir (which would have helped the family avoid the succession problem)

Finally getting a son and heir would have been good to Cora and especially Robert, but bad for Mary whom the current heir, Matthew, had proposed. Mary delayed her answer, both because she wanted to confess him that she wasn't a virgin but was afraid of his reaction and because her aunt persuaded her that she wouldn't be content with a lawyer's wife (which was probably quite true, considering Mary's character and values). After Cora miscarried, Matthew who proudly wanted to be loved only for himself regardless of his position parted from Mary. 

In a show like Downton Abbey, Cora's pregnancy and miscarriage was mainly created to cause a rift between Mary and Matthew.

[kristen111]

I’ve loved Downton Abbey and I love Gilded Age also, but I think this show is trying too hard to be like Downton.  Downton was Royalty, and this show is very wealthy New Yorkers.  A difference.  A Footman to serve each guest was over the top, so are the clothes.  Not that I’m complaining tho as I love the dresses.  The help is always scurrying around like they are afraid, where as in Downton, they seemed more at ease with the family.  In Gilded, they are overly stiff.  I’ll take it tho, and love to see Newport and the balls.  Plus I love Ada and Agnes.  Bertha’s daughter looks very young, like a child.  Is she supposed to be?  Anyhow, this is the way I see this series.

 

 

 

[Roseanna]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:11 PM, blackwing said:

She tried to seduce George to try and get him to dump Bertha. 

Turner wanted to become George's mistress and thus to get all he could offer her with his money.

But there was never a chance to get George to dump Bertha: even if he weren't in love with his wife, she was the mother of his children and the divorce wasn't socially accepted.

Of course, by becoming George's mistress Turner could emotionally hurt Bertha who loved him. But even that plan wasn't clever: if Bertha made George to chose between her and Turner, the result would be clear.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Roseanna
changed a letter

[Sarah 103]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:30 PM, kristen111 said:

I’ve loved Downton Abbey and I love Gilded Age also, but I think this show is trying too hard to be like Downton.  Downton was Royalty, and this show is very wealthy New Yorkers.  A difference.  A Footman to serve each guest was over the top, so are the clothes. 

Downton wasn't royalty; they were nobility.

I thought all of the staff we saw in "Close Enough to Touch" was just for the night, for the dinner in honor of the duke. My understanding was that Bertha was going over the top and borrowing servants from other households to show off and make a good impression.

Bertha is showing off and going over the top with the regular uniforms she has her footmen wear. 

[Atlanta]

Does anyone know when Belgravia is coming back? I know they filmed/are filming a season two and the real life Lady Frederick Windsor (Sophie Winkleman) plays a role. She's married to the second cousin of King Charles. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgravia_(TV_series) 

[Camera One]

I agree there was needless attempt to re-make the Downton formula of upstairs vs downstairs on this show.

Instead of servants, they could have devoted stories to other "new money" families, or just other groups working in the city.

In terms of the servants, one difference is some of the servants in Downton Abbey had been working with each other for a long time, and with a stronger loyalty to their family. 

Whereas with the Russells moving in, I initially thought it might be interesting what it was like with a newly assembled team of servants who may not have worked with each other for very long.  But that wasn't really explored.  

On this show, they haven't established the relationships between the servants, or between the servants and their household as well.  Bannister has been working for Agnes for a long time, but he didn't give a second thought to betraying her to help the Russells for a night. The cook was gambling, but we never saw knowledge/concern from her fellow servants.  

Of course, I would like nothing more than a spinoff show featuring Armstrong and her mother.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Camera One

[EtheltoTillie]

Here’s a dilly I bet few have heard of. I randomly caught something called From Time to Time on YouTube. It’s a 2009 ghost story directed by Fellowes. Based on a novel. It involves time travel where a boy travels back in time from WWII to 1805 in a grand house. His granny is played by Maggie Smith!  To keep this OT, as in The Gilded Age, they also bring in an anachronistic story about slavery. It’s kind of fun though. 

[Roseanna]

Compared to Downton Abbey the greatest fault is that there hasn't been such a sudden catastrophe and a great secret like Pamuk dying in Mary's bed that gets the action moving, influences on the family denamics and keeps the lovers apart.

Also, in DA the actors really could the technique of repressed emotions and the audience loved to suffer with them.   

[blackwing]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:13 PM, Camera One said:

I agree there was needless attempt to re-make the Downton formula of upstairs vs downstairs on this show.

Instead of servants, they could have devoted stories to other "new money" families, or just other groups working in the city.

In terms of the servants, one difference is some of the servants in Downton Abbey had been working with each other for a long time, and with a stronger loyalty to their family. 

Whereas with the Russells moving in, I initially thought it might be interesting what it was like with a newly assembled team of servants who may not have worked with each other for very long.  But that wasn't really explored.  

At least here, he is trying to recreate his own show.  Unlike, say "Victoria", which also needlessly injected the downstairs drama when it didn't need to.

This show never explained where the Russells came from.  Where they lived before, how long they have been preparing to move in to the house on 61st, how many servants they brought with them.  I do think they just brought over whoever was with them at the old place and then hired more.

6 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

JF likes to wrap things up neatly, like Hollywood endings for all the deserving characters.  I could watch this with the sound muted because it is so beautiful, any story line is just fodder for me but I do enjoy this show...if I wanted real history I would watch a documentary.

 

Brought this comment over from the Season 2 Episode 7 thread.  Fellowes does tend to wrap things up, but not always.  It always pissed me off the Cora assumed it was her own clumsiness that caused her to slip on the soap and lose the baby.  When it was actually O'Brien and Thomas.  When Cora was presumed to be dying of some illness, O'Brien could have tearfully confessed to her role.  But she didn't.  Then the actress left the show because she couldn't handle being hated, and the subject was never brought up again.

What really pissed me off was the redemption for Thomas, one of the longstanding villains of the show.  He wound up with his dream job, despite doing everything he could to be nasty to the family in the early years.

Unlike Downton Abbey, The Gilded Age is a bit more subtle in portraying its villains.  I would have thought George and Bertha are villains given the way they treat others, but Fellowes somehow views them as his heroes.  He clearly views Turner Winterton as his villain, but to me, she is the hero.

[RachelKM]

51 minutes ago, blackwing said:

He clearly views Turner Winterton as his villain, but to me, she is the hero.

Hero? Really?  I totally get not lionizing the Russell's.  Other than their rather endearing devotion to one another, they are pretty shallow people with horrific priorities. But Turnerton is just a wannabe Bertha.  Bertha may be ruthless and officious, but ruthless, officious, and obtuse and petulant is not more root-worthy just because it's turned on someone else whose terrible. Hell, so far, she's not even a competent foil for Bertha.  She's been thwarted at every turn.

That something I definitely fault JF's shows for.  He can't really let his favored characters fully lose or be too bad (regardless of whether they are objectively shitty people). So, despite setting up conflicts, he can't really bring himself to make either do anything particularly scorn worthy. See:

• Downton: Lord Grantham and Lady Mary Crawley - Matthew Crawley and his mom
• Belgravia: Lord & Lady Brockenhurst v. the Trenchards
• Gilded Age: Old Money v. New Money

 So he creates strawman villains easily rooted against and disposable if necessary.

[Roseanna]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:15 AM, RachelKM said:

Hero? Really?  I totally get not lionizing the Russell's.  Other than their rather endearing devotion to one another, they are pretty shallow people with horrific priorities. But Turnerton is just a wannabe Bertha.  Bertha may be ruthless and officious, but ruthless, officious, and obtuse and petulant is not more root-worthy just because it's turned on someone else whose terrible. Hell, so far, she's not even a competent foil for Bertha.  She's been thwarted at every turn.

Despite Bertha and George's faults, I think they both have some sort morality of their own.

As Bertha said to a wife who came to ask for help after she had snubbed socially her and her husband had tried to ruin George: Are I in debt to you for something? That is, Bertha is good to those who have been good to her, but those who had treated her and/or George wrongly, don't get any help from her but must meet the consequences of their own actions. 

It has been said here that George "drive a man to suicide" by refusing to help him. Actually, that man chose to do a suicide because he was afraid to face financial ruin and social shame caused by his own foolish actions, thus showing that those outward things were more important to him than his family that he left to face them alone. 

Although George wasn't guilty, he was evidently shocked but also calculating; he was ready to leave the feud behind him on the condition that, as he said to her husband, Aurora helped Bertha socially.

On the other hand, Turner continues vendetta towards Betha although she has really no valid reason. By trying to seduce George she showed that she lacks basic morality and also that she is a fool. She could have with justice been fired already then. When she came to Russells' house as a wealthy wife, Bertha was willing to hide her past but she begun a competition with her. 

Mrs Astor is a worthy adversary with Bertha, but Turner is surpassed by Bertha in everything.     

[Nedsdag]

Hi, everyone!

I couldn't find another place to put this, but someone started a petition on Change.org asking HBO to renew the show:

https://chng.it/Tzs4sXvXyM