S17.E09: Week 9

[seacliffsal]

This is the only episode I semi-watched besides the Men Tell All as I heard there would be the biggest fight in Bachelorette history.  I agree with so many of your observations, but nobody has yet mentioned my most very favorite moment in all of Bachelor history and that is the scene once they rounded up Kaitlyn to go and talk with Katie and Kaitlyn sat on the floor outside of the bathroom asking various softball questions to Katie while tightening her shoe laces and rolling up her pant legs.  That was amazing!  Kaitlyn basically showed us that she could care less about Katie's drama.  It was PERFECT!  Chris Harrison could at least pretend he cared; he could do that concerned/fatherly look.  The best that Kaitlyn could muster up was fiddling with her clothes.  

Greg may or may not have been looking for a way out, but it seemed clear to me (IMO) that Katie only became concerned when he left her room and said he was leaving and she realized that someone else was walking out on her and then she got worried and went out after him. 

[Blintzie]

I’ve been Team Greg all along, so I definitely sympathized with him being upset with her reaction (or lack thereof) when he poured his heart out to her. The things she was saying to his family and in their argument did make it sound like this is a game, and he’s the front runner. Now, I get that that is exactly what The Bachelor/Bacholerette is, but if you’re in that bubble and actually think you’ve fallen in love, it would be hard to watch the person you love dating other people. Yes, that’s what they signed up for, but it would be hard to watch. 

I’m wondering if Greg realized that overnight dates were next, and he didn’t want the woman he loves sleeping with a couple other guys days before he proposes. That’s one aspect of this sh!tshow that has always puzzled me… how a person can propose having just slept with other people or knowing their love has just slept with a few other people. The fact that anyone has actually gotten married from this process is amazing to me! 

[b2H]

15 hours ago, Dr Epi said:

The Bachelor/ette almost always have to balance needs of show, other contestants, etc.

That sort of went out the window with Clare's season.

Between no more Chris Harrison and a total suspension of anything resembling rules, this show is no longer worth watching.  I admit, with limited TV selection in the hotel I'm in for the next week and a half, I wandered into the last 10 minutes of last night's show.  I'll show myself out.

They need to either suspend this show production until the pandemic is over or completely re-tool the show because, in its current form, it just doesn't work anymore.

There's a reason the guys are bailing.  All one has to do is look past the veneer.

[suuzq44]

Blake is supposed to win and that why 

16 hours ago, JenE4 said:

I might be alone in this, but I’m Team Greg here. He has a point. He’s pouring his heart out and crying and saying how much he loves her, and she’s just looking at him and saying, “I like the way you look.” What?!? It’s true that she expects the guys to “tell her where their heart is at” but she can’t do the same? That’s bullshit. Plenty of leads have said I love you at this point—sometimes to multiple people, and maybe Katie doesn’t want to do that, but if it really is him, just tell him you love him!

She is supposed to end up with Blake (I heard) .. so Katie cant really say anything otherwise she will go against the rules of The show.    I just Love Greg , Omg wish I was 30 years younger.

 

 

 

 

[funnygirl]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

Greg may or may not have been looking for a way out, but it seemed clear to me (IMO) that Katie only became concerned when he left her room and said he was leaving and she realized that someone else was walking out on her and then she got worried and went out after him. 

Genuine question: is this a Bachelor/Bachelorette record for how many people have self-eliminated in a season? Three of her top five bounced. 

"it's not us, it's you" 😬

[DEL901]

33 minutes ago, funnygirl said:

Genuine question: is this a Bachelor/Bachelorette record for how many people have self-eliminated in a season? Three of her top five bounced. 

"it's not us, it's you" 😬

If you go over to the media thread, I posted a link to an article that claims to list everyone who quit covering all seasons. 

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

I get what he was saying.  He was searching for a genuine connection, and she was telling him that he was going to be the winner of the "game."  I think in that moment he realized that the Katie he was in love with wasn't the same person as "Bachelorette katie."

But all he has ever known was Bachelorette Katie. 

He signed up for this show.  Multiple times!  I get that it can be a very confusing process but I feel that holding how she spoke against her, even though the message of "you're number one" is bachelor speak for "we'll be together after this is over in a few weeks" and exactly what he claimed he wanted to hear, gave me some definitive negging vibes.

"Yes, you told me I'm who you want to be with but you didn't use the approved language I have in my head so bye!"

He can miss me with his "real Katie" bullshit.

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

Katie and Kaitlyn sat on the floor outside of the bathroom asking various softball questions to Katie while tightening her shoe laces and rolling up her pant legs.  That was amazing!  Kaitlyn basically showed us that she could care less about Katie's drama.  It was PERFECT!  Chris Harrison could at least pretend he cared; he could do that concerned/fatherly look.  The best that Kaitlyn could muster up was fiddling with her clothes. 

Katilyn got on the floor.  I can't imagine Chris doing that.  And she gave softball questions because she could see Katie was hurting.  And then she went into the bathroom and held Katie. 

I can't imagine Chris doing that.  From what I understand, Kaitlyn was triggered by the whole thing based on something similar that happened on her season. 

I mean, sure, she fiddled with her clothes but fiddling is just fiddling. 

Quote

Katie only became concerned when he left her room and said he was leaving and she realized that someone else was walking out on her and then she got worried and went out after him. 

I think the context of the whole season goes against the idea that Katie only cared once he was walking away.  She has spent every single date/moment they've had trying to reassure him of her feelings for him.  She basically told him that he was her pick.  I think she was shocked that he could think otherwise after all that.

[waving feather]

14 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

I also think that Greg finally saw Katie for who she is, and realized he had been sucked into the mass hypnosis of this show, the way 30 guys can be convinced that Katie is the most wonderful human on the planet. She's actually kind of shallow. You could see the realization in his eyes, that he had allowed himself to think he was in love.

I actually think this is it. He liked the version of Katie he had in his mind but that illusion broke by her vapid response during their last date conversation. Perhaps because he was more emotionally charged in that moment, he found the difference in their emotional involvement very jarring. She also kept using Bachelor-speak in her conversations with him. "Number 1", "fight for us", "receive a rose", "trust the process", "it's going to get harder", etc. Which is fine in the context of the show but I just think he has reached a point where he couldn't take it anymore and he sees Katie for who she is, just someone playing the role of the Bachelorette and didn't find that attractive anymore. Neither one truly loved each other. So it's not a big loss. 

It might also be too soon for Greg to sign up for reality TV. He was still in the toughest parts of grieving and thus not emotionally stable to handle it.

[Stats Queen]

13 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Something's rotten in New Mexico! There are no coincidences on this show. Greg saw Katie's date with Blake because the producers wanted him to see it. And the way the evening portion of Greg's date escalated, it definitely looked like parts were cut out, probably the parts where producers took Greg aside and asked leading questions like "Don't you feel terrible that Katie didn't reciprocate your declaration of love?" I agree with those say that he needs a lot of reassurance, but I also feel the producers really took advantage of that. And Katie's confused reaction was probably because she was taken aback that the producers were so openly fucking with him.

New Mexico is mad at Katie and Greg for the misuse of precious water 😜

[TomGirl]

2 hours ago, b2H said:

There's a reason the guys are bailing.  All one has to do is look past the veneer.

And the veneers.

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

This is the only episode I semi-watched besides the Men Tell All as I heard there would be the biggest fight in Bachelorette history.  I agree with so many of your observations, but nobody has yet mentioned my most very favorite moment in all of Bachelor history and that is the scene once they rounded up Kaitlyn to go and talk with Katie and Kaitlyn sat on the floor outside of the bathroom asking various softball questions to Katie while tightening her shoe laces and rolling up her pant legs.  That was amazing!  Kaitlyn basically showed us that she could care less about Katie's drama.  It was PERFECT!  Chris Harrison could at least pretend he cared; he could do that concerned/fatherly look.  The best that Kaitlyn could muster up was fiddling with her clothes.  

Greg may or may not have been looking for a way out, but it seemed clear to me (IMO) that Katie only became concerned when he left her room and said he was leaving and she realized that someone else was walking out on her and then she got worried and went out after him. 

I thought the best worst Kaitlyn moment was when she was all: Gurrl, I’ve been there. I cried into my salad!

[call me ishmael]

55 minutes ago, waving feather said:

I actually think this is it. He liked the version of Katie he had in his mind but that illusion broke by her vapid response during their last date conversation. Perhaps because he was more emotionally charged in that moment, he found the difference in their emotional involvement very jarring. She also kept using Bachelor-speak in her conversations with him. "Number 1", "fight for us", "receive a rose", "trust the process", "it's going to get harder", etc. Which is fine in the context of the show but I just think he has reached a point where he couldn't take it anymore and he sees Katie for who she is, just someone playing the role of the Bachelorette and didn't find that attractive anymore. Neither one truly loved each other. So it's not a big loss. 

It might also be too soon for Greg to sign up for reality TV. He was still in the toughest parts of grieving and thus not emotionally stable to handle it.

I guess i see this in exactly the opposite terms.  Yes, she was talking in Bachelorette speak.  But it seems clear to me that she felt bound to follow the rules (and i agree with the idea that after Claire the producers were especially clear about that with her) and continually said things that anyone who was capable of thinking outside of their own head would have recognized that it meant he was her pick.  
 

i think that what happened was that after his family was enthusiastic and he told them he was confident that she would pick him he insisted that she TELL HIM NOW!  He showed no awareness for the situation because by that point it was all about saving face for him.  

[Hip-to-be-Square]

3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

This is the only episode I semi-watched besides the Men Tell All as I heard there would be the biggest fight in Bachelorette history.  I agree with so many of your observations, but nobody has yet mentioned my most very favorite moment in all of Bachelor history and that is the scene once they rounded up Kaitlyn to go and talk with Katie and Kaitlyn sat on the floor outside of the bathroom asking various softball questions to Katie while tightening her shoe laces and rolling up her pant legs.  That was amazing!  Kaitlyn basically showed us that she could care less about Katie's drama.  It was PERFECT!  Chris Harrison could at least pretend he cared; he could do that concerned/fatherly look.  The best that Kaitlyn could muster up was fiddling with her clothes.  

I forgot to mention the scene of Kaitlyn futzing around with her shoes and pants while Katie was having a breakdown in the bathroom!  I kept waiting for Kaitlyn to get out a magnifying mirror and tweezers or a Sudoku puzzle- maybe a bag of Doritos! 😄 They should've brought Tayshia out to console her by repeatedly saying, "It's a lot".  

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Hip-to-be-Square
spelling

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

2 hours ago, funnygirl said:

Genuine question: is this a Bachelor/Bachelorette record for how many people have self-eliminated in a season? Three of her top five bounced. 

"it's not us, it's you" 😬

And she basically told two of them they'd be the winner if they just stuck around. Nothing like multiple guys being told that and replying "Yeah, no thanks."

[Katie111]

I think he is in love with her.  I don’t think he is acting at all.  He is jealous because he loves her.  Seeing her on the date with Blake was painful to him.  And the thought of her going in a fantasy suite with another guy is too much for him.  I wouldn’t want my future fiancé sleeping with someone else 3 days before I propose either.  What he was saying was that if he’s the one, why does it need to continue?  Tell me you live me and end the rest of this charade.   Why does she have to continue dating another person and possibly sleeping with them.  I don’t see at all how that is gaslighting.   
 

But I agree that she changed when he said he was in love with her.  I thought he was F1 but when he said that, her reaction led me to think that maybe she still has strong feelings for one of the other guys, probably Blake.  And I think he felt that too.  At a minimum, I think she wants to sleep with Blake before she gets engaged to anyone.  She is totally into his sexual chemistry.  She may want Greg, but she wants to test out Blake before committing. 

[nlkm9]

6 hours ago, Jax7917 said:

The whole Greg thing reminded me of Ryan gosling in the notebook . “ what do you want ?!! God Damnt what do you want ?” ( especially because they look alike to me . 
 

I have no idea what Greg wanted from Katie . She was pretty much telling him he was the one but she’s not allowed to say it . She kept saying I want you here and the process is almost done , just be patient . Does he not understand that the entire premise of the show is to date and lead on multiple people until it gets down to 1? You either say I love you to all of the remaining guys or to none of them that’s usually how it works . 
 

That being said , I found him really hot throughout all of this 😂 . I’m not sure if he’s acting ( isn’t that his “occupation “or am I wrong ?) or if he was genuinely hurt , but that’s the type of emotion I need in a man  . That, mixed with him being really hot is just what the doctor ordered . 

I dont know, if he is the one, he should wait until she has sex with 2 other guys and then chooses him--I remember on Kaitlyns season her reasurring shawn that everything she was doing (sex with nick) and all was the way it was all meant to happen and to wait and if I was him I would have walked at that point. and LOL that mkes me think of Andi and how she was "outed" on her finale about sleeping with nick before choosing Josh. it really is a tough process and a very unnatural one. one thing I have noticed EVERY season is (Im a watcher since season 1) is someone in sent home, the bach or the ette is sobbing, mesnicking and then clinking glasses happily with the left ones "heres to love". its crazy. lol. part of me thinks Greg wanted out and picked a fight.

[The Closer]

Eh, Greg has major issues. It's fine that he is unhappy with Katie. It's fine he wants to leave. I don't disagree with any of that. 

However, he had been fine all along, even going as far as telling his family that very night that she was the one, but one single conversation that he doesn't like and he torches the earth? Yeah, that's not a guy to be with. He was loving until he wasn't and then he became cold and cruel and bailed. I can only imagine how much worse it might have been had it not been for the cameras. Eesh.

Any woman who ends up with him will regret it the moment things don't go his way. 

[nlkm9]

5 minutes ago, The Closer said:

Eh, Greg has major issues. It's fine that he is unhappy with Katie. It's fine he wants to leave. I don't disagree with any of that. 

However, he had been fine all along, even going as far as telling his family that very night that she was the one, but one single conversation that he doesn't like and he torches the earth? Yeah, that's not a guy to be with. He was loving until he wasn't and then he became cold and cruel and bailed. I can only imagine how much worse it might have been had it not been for the cameras. Eesh.

Any woman who ends up with him will regret it the moment things don't go his way. 

I think he is devestated by his fathers death and needs some type of therapy. its so hard t know if he is sincere or not. Katie def wants to try blake out in the fantasy suite . ugh. wonder how blake will feel when he sees katie say you were the one.

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

Just watched the Greg/Katie blowout. This is my 100% subjective and opinionated view of what really went down:

*While Greg certainly knew Katie and other guys were going on dates, he'd fooled himself into believing that he was the one that Katie really wanted, and the other dates were something Katie did because she had to. Then he sees Katie and Blake, as happy on their date as he and Katie had been on their dates, and realizes "Oh, she's acting this way towards everyone."

*Greg unloads his feelings on Katie (and maybe asking her off-camera to forget everyone else and come with him), and basically is told "No, I'm doing the dates and Fantasy Suites with the other guys."

*His insecurity grows and he confronts Katie again. He realizes she views this as a game where she picks the winner, but he wants someone 100% focused on him.

*Katie, realizing Greg is walking out on her forever, pleads with him to stay but his mind is made up.

I agree with the other posters who said Katie may have pegged Greg as "The One," but she still wanted her little fling with Blake.

Greg, for his part, is the latest in a long line of Bachelor(ette) contestants who thought they could handle the messed-up dynamics of this show and were proven wrong.

[TheFinalRose]

1 hour ago, Katie111 said:

her reaction led me to think that maybe she still has strong feelings for one of the other guys, probably Blake.  And I think he felt that too.  At a minimum, I think she wants to sleep with Blake before she gets engaged to anyone.  She is totally into his sexual chemistry.  She may want Greg, but she wants to test out Blake before committing. 

I missed the first two dates, but Katie's stiff and stilted response to Greg's emotional decrees definitely came off to me that she was holding back because she was still undecided between Greg and Blake. She wanted Greg and Blake there at the end but Greg was in love with her. The problem wasn't that he was looking for her to say the right thing, the problem was that he didn't recognize the Katie that he was dealing with. I think he went back to her room not to quit, but to see if the old Katie was there, the old Katie who he went on the earlier dates with. And she was GONE. I saw that she was GONE. Do you think this is the first time the Bachelor Franchise swapped an original HUMAN with a Stepford Replacement? 

I don't think Greg is an emotional wreck. I think he is emotionally observant and picked up hesitation on her part. I'd bail too if my heart was on the line and I got a second dose of an emotionally distant lead who I knew was just acting super happy with Blake and then really weird to me.  I don't think I've ever seen a lead shut down with their supposed F1 to the point Katie did. I'm wondering if Katie used the rules of the show as a way to get out of the awkwardness of leading Greg on and then being way into Blake.  

[Starlight925]

I just re-watched it, and I'm more convinced than ever that Greg is acting.

I re-watched several scenes, to see if what I thought I was watching was what I thought, and yes it was:  On multiple occasions, "distraught" Greg smirks.  He even smiles in some scenes, in profile.

I've studied Body Language, and this is called Duper's Delight.  A liar can be caught if you watch them very slowly, as they smirk in delight at fooling someone.

Greg shows Duper's Delight multiple times.  The first one is the night of the fight, just after Katie gets into the limo....Greg is smirking.  He also smirks/smiles when he & Blake are talking about how difficult this all is.  Blake doesn't crack one smirk during that whole conversation, but Greg does.  Katie never cracks a single smirk, but Greg does, multiple times.

A person who is honestly distraught can't smirk, as the brain won't allow that emotion to come through.  But for a person who is pulling the wool over someone else, making them squirm, it's almost impossible not to.

Actors use a trick, when they're afraid they're going to break character, of putting their hand over their mouth, or bowing their head, so as to not be seen with a fake expression. Greg holds his hands over his mouth, bows his head, constantly, during this whole exchange.

I think Greg got on this show to break into acting.  He got as far as he needed to go, and then went completely cold on Katie, causing her to literally sit on the concrete at his feet like a puppy, begging him to hang in there.  Cue:  More coldness from Greg, as he's "done".  Cue:  What Greg thinks is a myriad of acting agents at his door.  I'm convinced of this.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Starlight925

[TheFinalRose]

2 minutes ago, Starlight925 said:

I think Greg got on this show to break into acting.  He got as far as he needed to go, and then went completely cold on Katie, causing her to literally sit on the concrete at his feet like a puppy, begging him to hang in there.  Cue:  More coldness from Greg, as he's "done".  Cue:  What Greg thinks is a myriad of acting agents at his door.  I'm convinced of this.

Very interesting observation about his acting tells. The only thing is, there are almost zero breakthrough thespians from this show. The best you get is a podcast that you have to monetize quickly because in ten years you'll be a has-been. Instagram influencer is also a great way to monetize fame from this show.  If Greg really did choose The Bachelor/ette franchise as his way to get into acting then he really should have done his research. 

[waving feather]

3 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

Yes, she was talking in Bachelorette speak.  But it seems clear to me that she felt bound to follow the rules (and i agree with the idea that after Claire the producers were especially clear about that with her)

The producers can encourage what kind of behaviour they want but they can't control the lead 100%. Tayshia basically told Zac, her F1, "I love you too" during their fantasy suite date. She had a traditional ending to her season and still came out unscathed. Also whenever Zac told her he loves her or falling in love with her, she never stared blankly like Katie. She always responded in a giddy or reciprocal way. That shows to me that Katie (whether she knows it herself or not) has mentally checked out in her relationship with Greg. Maybe it's just pure Bachelorette fatigue she's feeling at the end of the season, but I could understand how it must have looked like from Greg's end.

[OldWiseOne]

4 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

i think that what happened was that after his family was enthusiastic and he told them he was confident that she would pick him he insisted that she TELL HIM NOW!  He showed no awareness for the situation because by that point it was all about saving face for him.  

I agree with this part. He said several times that he'd told his family he was going to be chosen.

2 hours ago, Katie111 said:

What he was saying was that if he’s the one, why does it need to continue? Tell me you live me and end the rest of this charade.   Why does she have to continue dating another person and possibly sleeping with them.  I don’t see at all how that is gaslighting.   

That may (or may not) have been what he meant, but it isn't what he said. If he'd actually been clear and said that it would be a different story.

[Jeanne222]

So I watched episode #1 and thought ‘not this season’!

Then I heard another one was bailing and thought ‘there can’t be many left’ so I watched. 

Lordy this is more like a soap opera than reality tv!

I bet Blake and Justin are zipping up their suitcases because nobody wants to be #2!

[truthaboutluv]

Reading around online about this episode, I have to say that for all the psychoanalysis being done on Greg (woo boy, who knew there were so many therapists, psychologists, etc. watching this show), the thing I find truly toxic is Bachelor Nation. 

I've seen the signs for awhile, which is a big part of what's mostly turned me off the franchise but holy wow the group think is something to behold. And when Bachelor Nation latches onto a narrative, man does it get overblown. Man oh man the levels of projection I read today. It was something. 

I just think many of the fans/viewers of this franchise are very quick to pick a villain and go in when they've decided on a narrative to the point of it being borderline toxic at times. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by truthaboutluv

[Alexander Pope]

5 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Reading around online about this episode, I have to say that for all the psychoanalysis being done on Greg (woo boy, who knew there were so many therapists, psychologists, etc. watching this show), the thing I find truly toxic is Bachelor Nation. 

I've seen the signs for awhile, which is a big part of what's mostly turned me off the franchise but holy wow the group think is something to behold. And Bachelor Nation latches onto a narrative, man does it get overblown. Man or man the levels of projection I read today. It was something. 

I just think many of the fans/viewers of this franchise are very quick to pick a villain and go in when they've decided on a narrative to the point of it being borderline toxic at times. 

who is the villain in Bachelor Nation's opinion?  on this site, it isn't clear.

[Hip-to-be-Square]

10 minutes ago, Alexander Pope said:

who is the villain in Bachelor Nation's opinion?  on this site, it isn't clear.

The villain is Katie's stylist.

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, Blintzie said:

 

I’m wondering if Greg realized that overnight dates were next, and he didn’t want the woman he loves sleeping with a couple other guys days before he proposes. That’s one aspect of this sh!tshow that has always puzzled me… how a person can propose having just slept with other people or knowing their love has just slept with a few other people. The fact that anyone has actually gotten married from this process is amazing to me! 

Same. I could swallow a lot of it for the sake of entertainment but no way could I accept a proposal from someone who, just a few days earlier, was crying because he couldn't choose between me and 2 other women. As a dude I couldn't propose to a woman when, the day before, I was creating a pro/con list with a toothy reality show host.

 

[Jax7917]

I pictured Greg to leave and then look at the camera and say , “ and scene .”

I don’t know whether Greg was auditioning for a soap or if in that moment he was genuinely into Katie or not , but either way I think he was either consciously or subconsciously trying to get out of having to propose to her . I was on a board on Facebook and his mom is on the same one because we are from the same town and she mentioned on a post before the season started that he was originally supposed to be on Clare’s season but things got changed and ended up on Katie’s season . It’s just crazy how  each season the show makes it seem as if the contestants came on for that specific lead but it’s so not the case and that’s how you know it’s a farce that they’re always “ in love .” 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Jax7917

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Alexander Pope said:

who is the villain in Bachelor Nation's opinion?  on this site, it isn't clear.

It's Greg. He's apparently a gaslighter (Katie decided to share an IG post defining gaslighting), showed signs of emotional manipulation and even potential emotional abuse. And in general was raising all kinds of red flags. 

You wouldn't get the full BN madness here because most of those who post here do so mainly to snark about the entire show. Which really is the best way to watch this franchise. 

[Alexander Pope]

1 minute ago, truthaboutluv said:

It's Greg. He's apparently a gaslighter (Katie decided to share an IG post defining gaslighting), showed signs of emotional manipulation and even potential emotional abuse. And in general was raising all kinds of red flags. 

You wouldn't get the full BN madness here because most of those who post here do so mainly to snark about the entire show. Which really is the best way to watch this franchise. 

That sounds very unpleasant.  I don't do social media but I love this site, and I love Ali Barthwell's recaps on Vulture.  She is team Greg.

[Thumper]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Same. I could swallow a lot of it for the sake of entertainment but no way could I accept a proposal from someone who, just a few days earlier, was crying because he couldn't choose between me and 2 other women. As a dude I couldn't propose to a woman when, the day before, I was creating a pro/con list with a toothy reality show host.

 

I agree, but that is  the premise of the Bachelor/ette shows.  I could never understand the overnight/sexnights.  Right before you choose someone.  (Having read that not all these nights include sex, although the show likes us to think so.) 

[Diana Berry]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:31 PM, Jillibean said:

Regardless of how genuine I think Greg was or wasn't, he told her some extremely emotional things in an extremely emotional way, and she responded with barely any changes in facial affect, a pause, and, "I love looking at you." She loves LOOKING at him? In my opinion she took something emotional from him (again, genuine or not) and turned it into something surface-level or physical. Imagine pouring your heart out to someone and getting a response basically telling you that you're good-looking. That and the fact that he was talking about the death of his father and her response was a strange almost-smile made it a very WTF moment for me. 

I almost felt like she wasn't actually listening to him and then went "oh shoot he's expecting me to say something now," like when you're daydreaming during a conversation and realize it's your turn to speak. The sort of indulgent half-smile and vague statement just seemed very "let me try to just...respond to whatever he said even though I was just mentally planning out what I need to pick up from CVS when I get home."

Spot on

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

Katie def wants to try blake out in the fantasy suite . ugh. wonder how blake will feel when he sees katie say you were the one.

If Blake is her F1 (it cracks me up how no one is considering that Justin could be---ha), I don't know that they last.  But he also seems to be a relatively easygoing guy who understands the process and rejection more than anyone.

Greg was her F1.  Until he wasn't.  If anything, this fight is a pretty good argument in favor of not shutting down the process too early.  She learned a lot about how Greg fights during this interaction.  And what he does when you don't perform the way he wants you to. 

It might hurt in the moment but ultimately, it might also make her appreciate what Justin and Blake offer that isn't so fraught.  Both seem to understand what they signed up for.

 

3 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Very interesting observation about his acting tells. The only thing is, there are almost zero breakthrough thespians from this show.

I think Nick V. has done some acting.  And maybe there's another person.  But yeah, it's pretty rare.

3 hours ago, waving feather said:

She never stared blankly like Katie. She always responded in a giddy or reciprocal way. That shows to me that Katie (whether she knows it herself or not) has mentally checked out in her relationship with Greg.

I don't think she stared blankly.  In fact, I read this description online before I saw the episode and that's not what I saw at all.  Her words were not great but her expression held a lot of affection.

14 minutes ago, Thumper said:

I could never understand the overnight/sexnights.  Right before you choose someone.  (Having read that not all these nights include sex, although the show likes us to think so.) 

I think some people think of the "engagement" as that "going exclusive" point.  And those couples tend to do better.  There are leads who had successful relationships who slept with more than one of their finalists. 

21 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

And in general was raising all kinds of red flags. 

I think the way he handled their argument and kept shutting Katie down did raise red flags for me; although I think opinion is pretty divided.

But I fell for the Peter Krauss BS and defended his POV.  I won't fall for it with Greg.  I also think some of people's perceptions come from outside tea which I'll put in spoilers since it's not part of the show:

Spoiler

Early on, there were leaks from people who knew him and knew people he dated that he pulls this kind of crap often in his relationships. 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Irlandesa

[jade.black]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:26 PM, Starlight925 said:

This took me back to a place I was in, almost 20 years ago, with a now ex-husband.  Almost verbatim.  

Created a reason to show what a great guy, so in love, so in awe of her, that he can't stand that she doesn't show the exact right emotion, in the exact right way, at the exact right time.  I felt the hairs on my arms stand up as Katie goes into defensive mode, trying to put the right words together, begging him, trying to appease him.  Katie, playing rewind on every word in that prior conversation, wondering what she did wrong, how she could have acted/spoken/reacted differently, anything, anything, to stop Greg from changing into this cold, hard brick wall.

THANK YOU. I spent two and a half years in a manipulative, emotionally abusive relationship and I was getting horrible flashbacks through this entire sequence. Maybe it's hard to see the signs if you haven't gone through it, but this is EXACTLY the sort of thing my ex would do to me. Fly off the rails because you didn't respond in the perfect way, because they suddenly suspected something, because you didn't live up to the flawless image they have in their mind of how you should act and exist at all times. And it might not start that way, but it will get progressively worse and worse throughout time. He would also say things like I wasn't really who I had made him believe I was or that I had "tricked" him somehow. It's pretty awful for your partner to suddenly treat you like some kind of stranger because of one misstep.

Look, Katie was weird in that moment, yeah. She has seemed slightly uncomfortable and surface-level during every moment she's been onscreen this season, to me, honestly, and I liked her on the Bachelor. I remember how Ali looked at Roberto the morning after their FS or how other girls beamed and radiated all over their face how they were feeling about their top 1 (Emily with Jef, Andi with stupid douchey Josh Murray), and Katie didn't do that here. But while I think there was piss poor communication, and she could have said a lot more to him along the lines of "we'll have a private conversation next week in the FS, you don't know how happy I am to hear this, etc etc", the way he treated her because of one misjudged response, knowing full well what he signed up for, is red flags ALL OVER. That cyclical, gaslighting, maddening type of conversation would have been their entire relationship. He knew they would have had alone time without cameras within a few days. Either he was never actually in love with her and was acting for TV or he's been hiding some major abusive tendencies through the whole show thus far. And if he did suddenly realize that this girl is more shallow than he thought she was, he didn't have to turn that cold on her that quickly. It was obvious she genuinely didn't understand what had happened.

(ETA: I'd also like to explain that when you're in love with a dude who does this to you, your brain basically malfunctions trying to figure out where you went wrong, how to fix it, and how to basically salvage the conversation without sending him into a further meltdown. I saw that paralyzed fear all over Katie during the argument.)

Katie's better off. I don't see the appeal of Blake, but he makes her laugh and they have physical chemistry. Take him and date outside of the show, at least it won't end in lifelong trauma.

God, I have had zero investment in this season but I had to come here to call out what Greg was doing and hope nobody has to go through that type of trash "love" EVER.

Edited August 4, 2021 by jade.black

[tinkerbell]

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

I agree, but that is  the premise of the Bachelor/ette shows.  I could never understand the overnight/sexnights.  Right before you choose someone.  (Having read that not all these nights include sex, although the show likes us to think so.) 

Yeah, it makes it seem like she "test drives" all the guys, and the one who is the best in bed gets the final rose.

[violet and green]

Well, this thread was more exciting than that episode. I am on Greg's side, but even so thought during that lengthy whatever it was that he would get exhausting pretty fast. I cannot believe Katie (is that her name?! I've watched every episode and seconds ago finished reading this thread and suddenly I'm not sure, maybe my braincells are dissolving from too much of this dreary schlock) basically iced Greg politely after his passionate outpouring, and then replied inanely, 'I love looking at you!' because she's thinking, Steady on, I still have to have sex with that randy bearded troll before your trial run. I really thought she would pick Greg or maybe Michael, and it was going to be a romantic end to a dull season, but no. Justin looks very freaked out! What a mess.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Thumper said:

I agree, but that is  the premise of the Bachelor/ette shows.  I could never understand the overnight/sexnights.  Right before you choose someone.  (Having read that not all these nights include sex, although the show likes us to think so.) 

Yes, I get that. I've been watching since Shannon noped out of the FS on Alex and Tina Fabulous got a touchdown in heels. I'm fine holding my suspension of disbelief as a viewer watching it for the entertainment factor, as a potential cast member, however, it would be a different story. 

I remember seeing Flynn complain in an interview that "they're not falling in love." It was then that they started allowing the happy couple to have clandestine meetings while they waited for the show to finish airing. None of this is conducive to fostering the "love" story they're itching to air. IMO they oughta get overnight visits before hometowns. It *almost* makes more sense to sleep with multiple people when there are more of them than to wait until F3. When there are several left its still more of a casual thing. The physical intimacy is less weirder to me when there are still several of them there than when there are only three and they're professing to love all of them.  What if they meet the folks and then find out that there's zero sexual compatibility?  

[SassyCat]

4 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

 

I bet Blake and Justin are zipping up their suitcases because nobody wants to be #2!

 

“I bet Blake and Justin are zipping up their suitcases because nobody wants to be #1!”

There! I fixed that part of the sentence for you in bolded lettering!  😉

Edited August 4, 2021 by SassyCat
A small whoops

[mamadrama]

44 minutes ago, violet and green said:

I really thought she would pick Greg or maybe Michael, and it was going to be a romantic end to a dull season, but no. Justin looks very freaked out! What a mess.

I think I'm leaning towards Greg's side, but regardless that scene was hella cringey and not in a good, trashy TV kind of way. This season almost makes me respect Clare more. I hated the way she continuously blew off the other guys, but at least she went for it. She didn't drag it out for the sake of entertainment and ratings. If Katie really was in love with Greg then she did have options. 

[JenE4]

6 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

That sounds very unpleasant.  I don't do social media but I love this site, and I love Ali Barthwell's recaps on Vulture.  She is team Greg.

Ali had a good take. I appreciate how she pointed out how neither was listening to the other, and she made good points for/against both of them—and where it seemed like each one was coming from. Everyone has some accountability in an argument, so it’s not fair to say it was all one or the other’s “fault.” (Even though in all of my prior posts I was firmly on Team Greg. But that’s because I thought Katie was cold and stand-offish and not showing an ounce of empathy or understanding to someone who’s being “vulnerable” after you spent this entire series begging the guys to be “vulnerable” but not giving an ounce of vulnerability back.)

The Bachelorette Recap: The Look of Love
Greg may have said way too much, but Katie said way too little.

Read in Vulture: https://apple.news/AnQjiO29xRYKmoiPNQWcJEw

 

[Jeanne222]

9 hours ago, Thumper said:

I agree, but that is  the premise of the Bachelor/ette shows.  I could never understand the overnight/sexnights.  Right before you choose someone.  (Having read that not all these nights include sex, although the show likes us to think so.) 

Being old...My take on the overnights is the same as the hometowns.  Everything has to FIT!  Lol

Once they experience the man, the family and the sex they choose.

In the olden days you got what you got!

 

[Dottie D]

I have seen numerous posts about gaslighting, but after watching that episode, I found Greg to be passive-aggressive.  I watch Shandy on YouTube, and liked the perspective she and her husband offered.  I feel at the end of the day our interpretations are based on our own experiences.

[Jax7917]

I just rewatched the scene after he told her how much she meant to him and 2 things I noticed : 

1) He shook his head “no” as he said im in love with you ( psychology says body language doesn’t lie .) 

2) I didn’t notice Katie’s response the first time but wow , “ I love looking at you “ is the best she’s got ? The guy just poured his heart out and that’s the best response she could give ? 
and that surprises me because every other conversation she’s had this season in regard to all the guys past trauma , I felt like she’s answered the guys perfectly . But this time she seemed like she just wanted to get out of there . 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

She didn't drag it out for the sake of entertainment and ratings. If Katie really was in love with Greg then she did have options. 

Clare didn't end it.  Clare wasn't doing what they needed her to do as the bachelorette very early on.   When production realized this, they brought Tayshia in just in case they needed to make a switch.  Clare was basically told her season was ending.

That option isn't available where they are in the season. 

If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the contracts the leads sign were changed after what happened with Clare to not have a repeat.

 

[the eskimo]

2 hours ago, Jax7917 said:

 

2) I didn’t notice Katie’s response the first time but wow , “ I love looking at you “ is the best she’s got ? The guy just poured his heart out and that’s the best response she could give ? 
 

I haven't rewatched, but I thought she was sitting there smiling at him adoringly and then he somewhat coldly said "what?", which I think caught her off guard because she was just enjoying the moment (without making that clear to him, obviously) and then she responded with the awkward "I just love looking at you."

 

I found this whole thing to be a perfect example of a misunderstanding that just blows up into much more than it needed to be. I thought it was obvious that he was her pick, and I think SHE thought it was obvious, too, so I don't think she thought she needed to make it more clear. He, on the other hand, got caught up in the moment, and then once the words escaped his mouth, he got scared that maybe he was making an ass out of himself and he needed just the right reassurance at that moment. 

 

Then it was just watching two people who can't communicate properly. He got "angry," she got confused. Instead of trying to calmly explain that she was just so caught up in the moment she lost her words, she clammed up, which just fueled his insecurity. I think she feared she would say the wrong thing (because she didn't understand where things went wrong in the first place), and he had himself so worked up that there might not have been a right thing at that point. 

 

I typically believe all of this is pretty fake, but I bought into this argument. I don't think they are that talented :) I thought cooler heads would prevail and they would have a romantic reconciliation, but seeing Katie on the Men Tell All, I'm not so sure. Or they do reconcile, but his insecurities are making it hell for her. 

[saber5055]

15 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Very interesting observation about his acting tells. The only thing is, there are almost zero breakthrough thespians from this show.

Nick Viall's movie runs on teevee every year. He plays the captain of some Love Boat ship. Google "Nick Viall" and "American actor" comes up. I know, I know, but still, Greg is an aspiring actor. It could happen.

[DEL901]

I had a lot of sympathy for Greg after their date.  I didn’t hate Katie…she seemed unsure of herself…was she thinking of her contractual obligations which, I am sure, they tightened up after Clare or did she really just not know how to respond.  

But I think when he went to her room, he went there to pick a fight.   He didn’t let her speak and while he demanded empathy, he didn’t give her any.   I think he’d decided he was going to go out on his terms, not hers and wouldn’t take the chance of not being THE ONE, regardless of how Katie tried to reassure him.  After seeing her with Blake…I think it keeps eating at him.  

With Blake, Katie gets to laugh.  He doesn’t have Resting Sad Face.   They have chemistry and conversation seems to flow.  And he is secure enough not to let him family rush him into premature I-love-yous.   

4 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Nick Viall's movie runs on teevee every year. He plays the captain of some Love Boat ship. Google "Nick Viall" and "American actor" comes up. I know, I know, but still, Greg is an aspiring actor. It could happen.

The other aspiring actors didn’t have Greg’s audition reel..happy, sad, confused, angry, stomping off with righteous indignation, betrayed by the woman he loved.  

[Thumper]

Don’t you think production told Greg to go out on his balcony to see Katie and Blake?  
I mean, what are the chances the camera catches that moment of Greg out on his balcony??? 🙄🙄🙄