Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[possibilities]

If you don't have the facts or the law, pound the table. It's the blow smoke and flash mirrors defense strategy.

[GaT]

Phylicia Rashad pens letter to Howard students and parents: "I offer my most sincere apology"

Quote

"My remarks were in no way directed towards survivors of sexual assault. I vehemently oppose sexual violence, find no excuse for such behavior, and I know that Howard University has a zero-tolerance policy toward interpersonal violence," Rashad wrote.

Keep on back pedaling Phylicia, or should I call you Felicia?

 

[aradia22]

We truly need "eye roll" as a reaction. 🙄 

[Bastet]

Quote

"My remarks were in no way directed towards survivors of sexual assault. I vehemently oppose sexual violence, find no excuse for such behavior,

Well, obviously you do, Phylicia, because you apparently do not think the things he admitted to doing constitute sexual assault.  (Or do you just think okay, that was wrong, but he still shouldn't be named, shamed, and punished because he's your friend, and a Black man in a racist society and criminal justice system?)  So how is any victim in Howard's College of Fine Arts ever going to feel like the system at your school is going to do anything but dismiss her ("Forget those women") if she comes forward and says a student or professor did the same thing to her?

Edited July 4, 2021 by Bastet

[Mabinogia]

3 hours ago, GaT said:

I vehemently oppose sexual violence, find no excuse for such behavior

So, is she saying that since her buddy Bill drugged the women so they wouldn't be able to fight him off, that what he did to them wasn't "violence" so it's okay? Or is she just a fucking hypocrite? 

[GaT]

27 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

So, is she saying that since her buddy Bill drugged the women so they wouldn't be able to fight him off, that what he did to them wasn't "violence" so it's okay? Or is she just a fucking hypocrite? 

She's saying "I released that tweet on my first day as Dean of Howard University's College of Fine Arts, & I have to apologize if I want to keep the job"

[DearEvette]

Howard really does need to fire Rashad  at this point.  There is no upside to keeping her.

The reality is her highest credentialed degree is a BFA.  Colleges don't typically appoint someone in such a high level administrative position in one of the liberal arts (humanities, social sciences, natural sciences) to someone with a degree under a masters.  Usually if they do it is some type of named fellowship or chair that can leverage the person's celebrity for fundraising and visibility to drive up enrollment.

A Dean of an entire school is highly administrative in nature and has duties that go beyond being visible for fund raising. She would have to decide on faculty contracts, tenure, hire lines, budgets, curriculum development etc.  Even if you have longevity in and real life experience in the arts, that is a different sort of skill set than the minutia of working in upper level University administration. 

If she was just hired for the cachet her celebrity would bring to the program and all the real work was supposed to be left to the Associate Dean (which is not typical since the AD is usually more front facing with student issues) then her real value has sunk, imo.

In fact she is, imo, more of a liabiity than a catch at this point because even though an academic dean would have no involvement in the issues regarding sexual assault or harassment (any school that receives federal funds must have a Title IX department or coordinator who would handle those) her presence in such a high level position gives the perception that students are less safe because of her attitude.

 

[catlover79]

Her words are so hollow. If her letter is an apology, it's too little too late.

[Stats Queen]

On 7/3/2021 at 8:55 AM, Hiyo said:

Ghislaine Maxwell’s lawyers cite Cosby case in bid to have charges dropped.

Lawyers claim Florida plea deal should protect socialite but tactic is unlikely to work.

All this is so disturbing.

Cosby got released because of procedural errors, so shame on the prosecutors for letting that happen. I don’t think his were federal charges. 
G Maxwell is being charged by the federal government, the federal government rarely loses.

I hope that:

1. State and federal laws continue to remove statutes of limitations on these types of crime.

2. Maxwell isn’t allowed to prematurely end her life sentence but should suffer for years (unlike Epstein, who got off easy).

3. Cosby’s suffering has only just begun….

 

 

[andromeda331]

On 7/3/2021 at 6:55 AM, Hiyo said:

Ghislaine Maxwell’s lawyers cite Cosby case in bid to have charges dropped.

Lawyers claim Florida plea deal should protect socialite but tactic is unlikely to work.

God please don't let that happen.  

[ifionlyknew]

17 hours ago, Stats Queen said:

. Cosby’s suffering has only just begun….

I hope so.  Him acting like he is the one who is a victim is beyond disgusting. He should thank his lucky stars he got released and just live out the rest of his life quietly.

And once more for the people in the back.  HE WAS RELEASED ON A TECHNICALITY HE WAS NOT EXONERATED.  

[catlover79]

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Carroll Baker. 😡😡😡😡😡

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/carroll-baker-bill-cosby-jail-metoo-women-233115717.html

[ifionlyknew]

46 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Carroll Baker. 😡😡😡😡😡

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/carroll-baker-bill-cosby-jail-metoo-women-233115717.html

For me it always stings more when it's a woman defending the indefensible. 

[letter8358]

50 minutes ago, catlover79 said:

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Carroll Baker. 😡😡😡😡😡

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/carroll-baker-bill-cosby-jail-metoo-women-233115717.html

Wouldn't an actress from the 50s and 60s know about sexism when she lived through it?  I bet she had a lot of issues that made her turned a blind eye on numerous occasions. Kim Novak, for example.

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, letter8358 said:

Wouldn't an actress from the 50s and 60s know about sexism when she lived through it?  I bet she had a lot of issues that made her turned a blind eye on numerous occasions. Kim Novak, for example.

I think older generations of women are in some way more affectected by living through rampant sexism. You learn to accept what you can't change and in a way, compromise. At some point, it becomes normal and when things change for the better, a lot of people have forgotten what normal should have been like.

I can't remember the word now, immersed, incorporated, asssimilated sexism? Someone help this second language speaker, please. 

[Irlandesa]

2 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I think older generations of women are in some way more affectected by living through rampant sexism. You learn to accept what you can't change and in a way, compromise. At some point, it becomes normal and when things change for the better, a lot of people have forgotten what normal should have been like.

Yep.  It's like any toxic situation, you learn to adapt to survive and unintentionally normalize what's happening.  It happens in abusive situations.  It happens in toxic work environments even unrelated to sexual harassment.  It happens in dysfunctional families. 

And people really value loyalty.  That's why so many people whose careers are what they are thanks to Cosby's shows have a hard time denouncing him.  Even though he raped over 50 women, they're afraid being seen as disloyal is worse.

[aradia22]

Quote

I can't remember the word now, immersed, incorporated, asssimilated sexism? Someone help this second language speaker, please. 

Internalized misogyny

[supposebly]

23 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Internalized misogyny

Thank you! It was on the tip of my tonge and just kept slipping away!

I'm generation X and have grown up with the thought of protecting myself and if something happens, it's my fault. I should know better, I'm smarter than to let something like this happen. The brand of feminism I grew up with valued being able to protect myself and being able to defend myself. I still feel guilty sometimes for never having taken a self-defense class.

It's very odd and takes time not to go to that reaction automatically and to remember that no, none of this is anyone's fault except the perpetrators.

What I don't understand is publicly proclaiming someone to be innocent when there is an accusation. That's also something I grew up with. Always expect the worst from a man.

I'm not saying that this is a good way to go through life but at least when a woman says she's been attacked, I don't need 20 other women to say the same to believe her. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by supposebly

[possibilities]

Stockholm Syndrome as well as internalized mysogyny, I think, come into play here. People embrace what they don't want to feel the pain of, and they try to normalize it so they don't have to do anything about it.

 

I feel like, if you don't want to believe someone, or you fear someone's been wrongly accused, at least be neutral and stay out of it. Better yet, look calmly at the evidence, and then shut up if you can't really be constructive. But I guess a lot of people aren't really able to be rational and objective when they have something personal at stake, or they're just flat out triggered and upset by something they wish wasn't true.

[catlover79]

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

I'm not saying that this is a good way to go through life but at least when a woman says she's been attacked, I don't need 20 other women to say the same to believe her. 

Right - where there's smoke, there's fire.

[Wiendish Fitch]

5 hours ago, catlover79 said:

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Carroll Baker. 😡😡😡😡😡

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/carroll-baker-bill-cosby-jail-metoo-women-233115717.html

Now, now, Carroll Baker has the right to defend Bill Cosby... just as I have the right to think she's a stupid, out-of-touch old has-been with fucked-up values and a warped perspective on what's considered "sexy". 

And Baby Doll is a dreary, overrated piece of crap. 

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

And people really value loyalty.  That's why so many people whose careers are what they are thanks to Cosby's shows have a hard time denouncing him.  Even though he raped over 50 women, they're afraid being seen as disloyal is worse.

You know what? I seriously question whether loyalty is a virtue. In fact, I think loyalty is, more often than not, just as toxic as the people who outwardly demand it. 

[catlover79]

It's worth noting that Carroll Baker's daughter, Blanche, is also an actress and started out at a very young age. Did she ever worry about her??? Blanche Baker won an Emmy for her work in the 1978 miniseries Holocaust. All the original L&O fans will remember her as Lucy Neven, the soap opera star attacked by an obsessed fan. 

It seems that less of the surviving actresses from Carroll Baker's day are willing to talk about the subject. Angela Lansbury (who played Baker's mother in Harlow) and Tippi Hedren - I got the same vibe. An actress of that generation who DID speak out about her own experience when the #MeToo movement just blew up was Janis Paige, and her story really amplified even more of how there were so little resources for help then. Thank goodness things have changed in that regard.

Edited July 8, 2021 by catlover79

[Wiendish Fitch]

11 hours ago, catlover79 said:

An actress of that generation DID speak out about her own experience when the #MeToo movement just blew up was Janis Paige, and her story really amplified even more of how there were so little resources for help then. 

You can read her story here. This is why we need to listen, take accusations seriously, and investigate: Ms. Paige will be 100 next year, and it has never left her. 

[JustHereForFood]

14 hours ago, supposebly said:

What I don't understand is publicly proclaiming someone to be innocent when there is an accusation. That's also something I grew up with. Always expect the worst from a man.

I'm not saying that this is a good way to go through life but at least when a woman says she's been attacked, I don't need 20 other women to say the same to believe her. 

And such defensiveness also comes from fans of the accused person, who never even met them, but are just so sure that the person they idolised must be innocent and those women are making stuff up for money or fame. Because we haven't witnessed time and time again how women who make accusations are treated.

[Kel Varnsen]

18 hours ago, catlover79 said:

Needless to say, I have lost a lot of respect for Carroll Baker. 😡😡😡😡😡

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/entertainment/carroll-baker-bill-cosby-jail-metoo-women-233115717.html

One thing I agree with her on, Cosby didn't deserve to be locked up at his age. He deserved to be locked up after he first started assaulting women decades ago.

[biakbiak]

She also brings up the rationale that people shouldn’t be able to come forward and destroy these people’s career “years later” always ignoring that frequently these predators destroyed their victims lives and careers.

Edited July 9, 2021 by biakbiak

[Blergh]

On 7/7/2021 at 8:45 PM, catlover79 said:

It's worth noting that Carroll Baker's daughter, Blanche, is also an actress and started out at a very young age. Did she ever worry about her??? Blanche Baker won an Emmy for her work in the 1978 miniseries Holocaust. All the original L&O fans will remember her as Lucy Neven, the soap opera star attacked by an obsessed fan. 

It seems that less of the surviving actresses from Carroll Baker's day are willing to talk about the subject. Angela Lansbury (who played Baker's mother in Harlow) and Tippi Hedren - I got the same vibe. An actress of that generation who DID speak out about her own experience when the #MeToo movement just blew up was Janis Paige, and her story really amplified even more of how there were so little resources for help then. Thank goodness things have changed in that regard.

Actually, Miss Hendren HAS spoken out about the subject. Specifically, in her autobio in 2016, she detailed about Alfred Hitchcock's obsession with her that warped into harassment then finally blackballing her when she made it clear she was not interested in him in any non-professional capacity. From having other cast members snub her to insisting she had to have real pecking birds strapped to her in The Birds,etc., it was rather ghastly what he evidently did. 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/oct/31/tippi-hedren-alfred-hitchcock-sexually-assaulted-me

Oh, and her daughter Melanie Griffith  has mentioned that when  she was four, he gave her a 'toy' of a tiny coffin with a doll inside- that looked exactly like her mother Miss Hendren! 

 

In any case, I think Miss Baker's statements attempting to throw a pity party for the admitted rapist Mr. Cosby while trashing his evident victims are rather vile and reprehensible. It's likely she gave off such a rather unsympathetic vibe (and perhaps   openly blamed victims  for the assaults back then) that the reason she 'never heard of ' any other assaults may have been that bona fide victims of her generation knew she'd give them nothing but flak and zero sympathy so they steered clear of her as much as possible.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Blergh

[Wiendish Fitch]

To Bill Cosby and his supporters...

[Ohiopirate02]

30 minutes ago, Blergh said:

In any case, I think Miss Baker's statements attempting to throw a pity party for the admitted rapist Mr. Cosby while trashing his evident victims are rather vile and reprehensible. It's ikely she gave off such a rather unsympathetic vibe (and perhaps   openly blamed victims  for the assaults back then) that the reason she 'never heard of ' any other assaults may have been that bona fide victims of her generation knew she'd give them nothing but flak and zero sympathy so they steered clear of her as much as possible.

Her comment about playing pinochle makes my blood boil, but I am not surprised to hear an older actress blame the victim.  Cosby would invite his victims to a private dinner in a hotel room and that appears to be the code for sex.  Of course, Miss Baker knows the code so she assumes every other woman knew as well.  She does sound like a piece of work who's go to response to sexual assault is "why did you put yourself into that position" instead of "why do men behave that way."    

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Her comment about playing pinochle makes my blood boil, but I am not surprised to hear an older actress blame the victim.  Cosby would invite his victims to a private dinner in a hotel room and that appears to be the code for sex.  Of course, Miss Baker knows the code so she assumes every other woman knew as well.  She does sound like a piece of work who's go to response to sexual assault is "why did you put yourself into that position" instead of "why do men behave that way."    

Plus even if someone got invited to bill Cosby's house, knew it was code for sex and was looking forward to having sex with him, that is still a completely different thing then getting drugged and having sex that you can't really remember.

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

And such defensiveness also comes from fans of the accused person, who never even met them, but are just so sure that the person they idolised must be innocent and those women are making stuff up for money or fame. Because we haven't witnessed time and time again how women who make accusations are treated.

I do find it funny how, on the one hand, people talk all the time about shady and seedy Hollywood is...and yet on the other hand, they're all ready to defend their favorite celebrities if they're accused of something. 

As for the attitude of some older women on this subject, yeah, I think a lot of them grew up in an era where they were taught that this is just how men are and that's just how they behave and women just have to deal with it. You grow up with that message, you internalize it, it's hard to shake off. And since they had to learn to "just deal with it", they can't figure out or understand why younger generations either weren't told the same thing, or why they're not putting up with this stuff the way the older generations had to. Maybe there's a little resentment that their generation was told to just deal with it, and now they see younger ones being told differently, and they wish they'd gotten that message when they were younger, too. 

[Spartan Girl]

God forbid we actually expect men to be gentlemen. Or at the very least, not rapists. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Edited July 8, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[andromeda331]

39 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

God forbid we actually expect men to be gentlemen. Or at the very least, not rapists. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

This yes!

[aradia22]

Quote

As a child and coming from a small town, I’d been taught nothing about life, about being a woman or about the future relationships I would have with the men I would ultimately meet.

This jumped out in the Janis Paige article given what @supposebly was saying about Generation X. I'm a millennial. I do think things shift with each generation but not necessarily in a linear fashion since progress is often met with a rejection of that progress (now I'm the one who can't remember the right word!). Basically, there are cycles of change and pushing back on that change and while general awareness of the problem increases, we're all messed up in our own ways by the blend of ideas that are most prevalent at the time we grew up.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

progress is often met with a rejection of that progress (now I'm the one who can't remember the right word!).

Backlash.

[catlover79]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

God forbid we actually expect men to be gentlemen. Or at the very least, not rapists. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

THANK YOU!!!!! 👏👏👏👏👏

[BetterButter]

Diplo accused of sexual assault in fresh lawsuit

Quote

The incident allegedly took place at a Las Vegas after party in 2019

 

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Annber03 said:

As for the attitude of some older women on this subject, yeah, I think a lot of them grew up in an era where they were taught that this is just how men are and that's just how they behave and women just have to deal with it.

I wonder if some of it is also like how older people think younger people aren't as tough as they were. Like how someone might say they didn't have seatbelts or bike helmets or warning labels back in their day and they survived ok. They might also say they knew how to deal with sex offenders, and anyone who was assaulted just dealt with it. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Dismantling and calling out the patriarchy is extremely scary for some people, including some women.

[Annber03]

11 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I wonder if some of it is also like how older people think younger people aren't as tough as they were. Like how someone might say they didn't have seatbelts or bike helmets or warning labels back in their day and they survived ok. They might also say they knew how to deal with sex offenders, and anyone who was assaulted just dealt with it. 

Great point. I think that's definitely part of it, too. Especially if sexual assault and rape were things that you just didn't talk about back then-if a woman couldn't find anyone to talk to or help her, she would've had no choice but to learn to just deal with it, and thus, a lot of people misunderstood that to mean that anyone could do that. 

And the whole "knew how to deal with sex offenders" thing also would explain the belief that if a woman was assaulted, it was somehow her fault, and she must've "done something" for that to happen. They think that sort of thing will never happen to them, because they'd do all the "right" things to avoid being assaulted. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don’t remember if it was here or in the unpopular thread, but since it’s related to Cosby, I’ll post it here.

Someone had asked if Debbie Allen had supported him, and the answer is yes. I recall reading articles where she was quoted as saying the accusations against him tarnished his “legacy” or maybe it was “reputation”. But she didn’t denounce him. 
 

Oh-it was in the other thread where discussion of A Different World was discussed as the better show and the credit went to Debbie Allen. While not as tone deaf to the extreme as Phylicia, Debbie’s not that much better.

[Bastet]

Also remember with these elderly women that for most of their lives "date rape" wasn't a term.  It wasn't understood to even be rape; it was just a bad date. 

There's a lot at play, although of course none of the explanations that apply in any given case excuse making such hurtful statements dismissing women's stories or blaming them for their own attacks.  They can speak of their own experiences without denying other's. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bastet

[Ms Blue Jay]

14 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Also remember with these elderly women that for most of their lives "date rape" wasn't a term.  It wasn't understood to even be rape; it was just a bad date. 

There's a lot at play, although of course none of the explanations that apply in any given case excuse making such hurtful statements dismissing women's stories or blaming them for their own attacks.  They can speak of their own experiences without denying other's. 

And that rape in marriage used to be legal.  

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I wonder if some of it is also like how older people think younger people aren't as tough as they were. Like how someone might say they didn't have seatbelts or bike helmets or warning labels back in their day and they survived ok. They might also say they knew how to deal with sex offenders, and anyone who was assaulted just dealt with it. 

Absolutely. It’s the “I suffered so you must also suffer” mindset. What they went through is worn as a badge of honor and people who speak up are viewed as weak. Anjelica Huston calling woman who speak up about sexual harassment snitches is a good example of that. 

The group I really can’t stand is the people who say that woman should be flattered by the attention. Brigitte Bardot is a good example of that group. My opinion of Gayle King completely tanked when she responded to a news story about a woman filming herself being catcalled repeatedly that she would have just done a twirl and been flattered. 

[possibilities]

I don't think people are excused from personal growth, empathy, or other signposts of decency because of their age or any other excuses. I get that people have complex emotional reactions to things, but at the end of the day I just don't like or respect or want to enable the bullshit of people who make excuses and throw others under the bus for whatever reason.

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

And that rape in marriage used to be legal.  

It still is in some states; while, by 1993, we finally had no state left in the U.S. with a wholesale marital exemption to its definition of rape (all 50 states used to have an "of a person other than a spouse" or similar clause in their penal codes), many states still define rape of a spouse differently, requiring additional elements to be proven in marital rape cases.  For example, about 15 states only consider it rape if physical force is used, so you can go ahead and rape your wife if you've drugged her or she's otherwise incapacitated.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bastet

[supposebly]

Don't forget we are witnessing a sizeable culture shift here. Until very recently, as in 3 years ago, the prevalent view WAS that it was the woman's fault. It still is for many people. In some schools, girls are still punished for wearing "distracting clothes". It starts very early.

Almost every woman around my age I know has had at least one "bad date" in their lives. We older women (well, middle-aged in my case) don't often know to call rape what it is unless there is considerable physical violence and a stranger involved. Because, admitting what happened requires possibly looking at their own "bad dates" in the past. Trust me, not an easy thing to do. It took me decades until I realized that my bad date when I was 17 wasn't just a bad date.

All of a sudden, we are asked to see things differently while all our lives, it was our fault and thus any woman's fault. 

I'm not excusing public defences of rapists and I really wish women like Anjelica Houston would keep their mouth shut until they reflect a little more. But if you spend your whole life trying to do the right thing so things don't happen to you, it's a bit hard to switch your thinking that quickly.

And let's not make women be responsible for the sins of men. Because then we're right back with the victim blaming.

Edited July 9, 2021 by supposebly

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Don't forget we are witnessing a sizeable culture shift here. Until very recently, as in 3 years ago, the prevalent view WAS that it was the woman's fault. It still is for many people. In some schools, girls are still punished for wearing "distracting clothes". It starts very.

I would disagree that it was the prevalent view that recently. It was common but as with most issues it was only that way because people were ignoring the voices who spoke out. I’ve been hearing those voices all of my adult life. Changing is a challenge but it’s really not like people didn’t know it was an issue. They just chose not to listen to those voices. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Guest

[possibilities]

I'm 55. I'm not from the oldest generation on earth, but not a kid, either. But in any generation, some of us are thrilled and relieved and happy to see things improve, and want to run toward it, not resist it. Others are resistant and will fight to stop change.

We can choose who to ally with, what values to embrace, and whether to stake our hearts on abuse or not. Those choices have consequences. If some people are having a hard time embracing positive change, and decide to make trouble for and revile those who are moving forward, they are going to have to live with the result that they will be disliked and ignored by people who see loyalty to abusers as part of the problem.

They've declared their disdain for us, and behaved in ways that oppose our well-being. Affection and respect, loyalty and support, work both ways. I don't see it as a case of men are at fault and women who are actively opposing efforts to hold abusers accountable are somehow lacking agency. I think it's infantilizing to decide women can't do better than that, and men are the only ones who should be held accountable. 

I'm not blaming someone like Huston or Rashad for what others have done. But when they defend it and insult accountability efforts and people who were harmed, I don't give them a pass for their complicity. It doesn't make them rapists, but it makes them rape apologists, and I think that's disgusting.

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I’ve been hearing those voices all of my adult life. Changing is a challenge but it’s really not like people didn’t know it was an issue

I do agree with you. Unfortunately, I think the fact that the overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases are not reported, let alone prosecuted would indicate otherwise. I think we are still very far from it being normal to treat sexual assault in the same way as any other assault. Even these high profile cases are only high profile because it took multiple women to accuse one man. For a single woman to accuse a man is still difficult.

Maybe, I'm too cynical but I think we are only very much at the beginning of real change. I think it will take at least another generation or two.