S01.E09: The Series Finale

[Abra]

9 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I just realized: “I have been a voice with no body” / “We’ve said our goodbyes before” means our Vision downloaded the memories from nu-Vision in the library as well as unlocking them for nu-Vision. 

That's definitely possible (and painful), but I think it's also possible he learned about it from Darcy in the Funnel Cake Van Ride of Shenanigans.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Ottis said:

How could anything have surprised anyone, when what happened was exactly what we knew had to happen back in episode 3, once it became clear Wanda was grieving, created the town narrative to make a dreamworld and needed therapy? Her fantasy had to end at some point. When it did, Vision and the kids had to go poof. We spent 5-6 agonizing episodes featuring sitcoms to get us to a point we knew would arrive. Agnes was the most interesting thing about this show, and she arrived too late in the season and disappointingly forgot her own rule. This entire season was a snoozer, and the only thing that should have happened was Wanda should have gone to jail for holding all those people hostage.

It was clear that Wanda was involved in the creation of Westview. But the details of how and why Westview was created were still a mystery as were the ramifications of its creation and its continued existence. 

TPTB chose the simplest explanation for everything - that Wanda solely created the Hex and that when she took it down, she lost WV Vision and the boys along with it. That wasn't necessarily the path that they had to go down.

It could have been that Wanda herself did not create it, but another entity created it to trap or trick her. The common theory was that a devil-figure called Mephisto had created it as a temptation. Another common theory was that Wanda was opening up portals to other realities and that it would be the vehicle for the introduction of mutants and the X-Men.

So the series could have taken a turn in which Wanda and her allies had to face off against different and much more powerful foes.

It also could have been the case that Wanda could have managed to keep WV Vision and the boys alive. Even if one could have predicted that WV Vision was entirely a creation of Wanda's magic, there is  no inherent reason that in taking down Westview must mean that Wanda had to lose Vision. Similarly, Billy and Tommy could have developed some independence existence of the magic that created them.

There in fact is no reason as things stand that Wanda cannot use a spell to re-revive WV Vision and the boys, other than she still does not know exactly how she did it. 

It could have been that Wanda recreated the Westview reality without holding people hostage. For instance, she could have done it in a remote location where it was just her, her family and magical creations of hers, or with knowing volunteers. 

11 hours ago, arc said:

I agree that ending the sitcom-ification of the town isn’t a real sacrifice. But she basically had to kill her created Vision and the twins, and I think that was a genuine sacrifice.

Yes and no. While it was undoubtedly painful to have to say those goodbyes again, it really is just a matter of time before she can figure out how to recreate them. 

9 hours ago, moonorchid said:

I never considered regular civilian consequences for wanda cause what can hold her? 

They have technology in the MCU that could neutralize her powers, at least as her powers were in Civil War days. And as great as Wanda may be, she cannot literally perceive every line of attack. She could still be tranqed, gassed or even killed. Hayward only ever presented her with obvious threats: a missile and armed and uniformed soldiers. Once unconscious, Wanda could be kept that way indefinitely. 

5 hours ago, arc said:

I just realized: “I have been a voice with no body” / “We’ve said our goodbyes before” means our Vision downloaded the memories from nu-Vision in the library as well as unlocking them for nu-Vision. 

I don't doubt that White Vision has both his memories unlocked and the memories of WV Vision. (To me, WV-Vision is more deserving of the label "nu-Vision" since he was more newly created, and White Vision is more deserving of the label "our Vision" since that was the one we saw created, fall in love, fight, and die across the various movies in the MCU).

But I don't think those statements from WV Vision have any real connection to that point. 

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

She did mention sensing the power of the hex and coming to investigate, but she never said where she was.  Maybe closer than NYC since an unprecedented spell that lasted for days apparently wasn't enough to ping the radar of Dr. Strange, Wong, or anyone else.

We were told that there was something about the Hex that urged people to stay away. It could be that the spells worked on a similar way to magic users, but that Agatha was somehow able to resist that effect. Perhaps it was because she had the Darkhold, or perhaps it was because she had encountered her own grief on a similar level to Wanda's.

Or it could simply be that Dr. Strange, Wong, Mordo and other powerful magic-users who would also be capable of sensing the barrier's magic were occupied elsewhere for the week or so that this took place in.

1 hour ago, jcin617 said:

That is one thing I'm curious about; Agatha said Wanda's powers rivaled that of the Sorcerer Supreme - and Kamar-Taj's whole raison d'être (or at least, their Sanctums) is to protect our reality.  So... seems like everything happening in Westview was right up their alley.

"Exceeds that of the Sorcerer Supreme." Also, Agatha is basing her comment on the notion that Wanda is in fact the Scarlet Witch prophesied in the Darkhold, and the Darkhold is correct. Both those assumptions may be off.

13 hours ago, swanpride said:

Okay...consequences...let's see….

Loki naturally should have gotten punished but then, Earth gave the jurisdiction over him to Asgard. If Thor wants to pardon him after he helped to rescue the last survivors of Asgard, that's what happens. And we don't know what would have happened if he had actually been back on earth.

Black Widow has famously "red in her ledger" but she DID gave herself up to Shield. The deal she had isn't that unusual - and most likely she didn't even request it, Shield just decided to use her because they liked her skills.

Bucky is completely innocent. Any non-corrupt law system in the world would acquit him. And it is not even that difficult to proof that he is innocent considering that there are helpfully recording aso of what was done to him. And witnesses who can confirm what the brain washing did to him. And doctors who treated him.

Tony always has the rich man's luck. He mostly escapes punishment for his actions because he is rich, not because he is a superhero. Same with T'Challa who has the additional benefit of being a prince/king. So you can easily overlook him trying to kill an innocent man out of a misguided desire for revenge. 

Clint is a murderer many times over, something which hopefully will be addressed in the future.

And Wanda, well, as the show itself pointed out, intention is an important factor to judge someone's actions. Wanda didn't intend to do any of this. She wasn't even aware that she WAS doing it in the beginning.  

Taking it to the MCU thread.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Scarlett45]

Just now, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could have been that Wanda herself did not create it, but another entity created it to trap or trick her.

I thought this for a long time. That something or someone trapped Wanda and she created the reality as a coping mechanism. 

[paigow]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:21 PM, Sakura12 said:

Why didn't they use Talos daughter to speak to Monica. 

20+ years have passed, maybe she is Skrull Queen now...

[shantown]

9 hours ago, arc said:

I just realized: “I have been a voice with no body” / “We’ve said our goodbyes before” means our Vision downloaded the memories from nu-Vision in the library as well as unlocking them for nu-Vision. 

Wait, can someone explain this for me? Perhaps I'm just marvelled-out at the moment, but I thought this was referring to his beginning as JARVIS and when they said goodbye in Endgame. What memories did Vision get from White Vision?

[Ailianna]

Originally in the early episodes it was revealed that Westview Vision couldn't remember anything before Westview. So remembering his JARVIS iteration shows he has new memories.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, shantown said:

Wait, can someone explain this for me? Perhaps I'm just marvelled-out at the moment, but I thought this was referring to his beginning as JARVIS and when they said goodbye in Endgame. What memories did Vision get from White Vision?

It's entirely possible that the information flow went to and from WV Vision and White Vision. The notion that they mirrored each others' movements could have signified this.

It's possible that the line from WV Vision is based on his now knowing first-hand that he had been a voice with no body (aka Jarvis) and them having said their goodbyes before (such as the various farewells during their courtship and the events of Infinity War) because he has absorbed the hard data about that from White Vision and has those memories now. 

It's also possible that WV Vision simply knows those things because he was told them by Darcy. IIRC, we were expressly shown WV Vision asking about having been an AI named Jarvis and about Wanda having killed him.

10 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Originally in the early episodes it was revealed that Westview Vision couldn't remember anything before Westview. So remembering his JARVIS iteration shows he has new memories.

That he referred to it doesn't mean he now has a memory of it. There are numerous things that people believe or know to be true without having first-hand memories of those events. 

[shantown]

38 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Originally in the early episodes it was revealed that Westview Vision couldn't remember anything before Westview. So remembering his JARVIS iteration shows he has new memories.

Ahhhh, okay - thank you! Forgot that he couldn't recall anything pre-Westview. I wonder if this was intentionally implying the two way info exchange between the Visions, or if the writers forgot he wouldn't know that! It made for a wonderfully emotional gut punch in that scene though, that's for sure.

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

She did mention sensing the power of the hex and coming to investigate, but she never said where she was.  Maybe closer than NYC since an unprecedented spell that lasted for days apparently wasn't enough to ping the radar of Dr. Strange, Wong, or anyone else.

Maybe. Although I think Westview is likely Southern NJ, not only based on the environment of the town, but also because Wanda originally appeared to have driven there from SWORD HQ, which had the vibe of being somewhere in a Central or Southern State. 

1 hour ago, shantown said:

Wait, can someone explain this for me? Perhaps I'm just marvelled-out at the moment, but I thought this was referring to his beginning as JARVIS and when they said goodbye in Endgame. What memories did Vision get from White Vision?

None. 

He knew a lot from Darcy, but admitted himself he wasn't the real Vision. 

[Brn2bwild]

Starting to think it wasn't such a great idea for Wanda to leave Agatha in Westview.  When she eventually returns to get Agatha, she'll have to go back to a place that she associates with loss, and where the people view her with hostility.  Plus, the people's memories weren't wiped - they'll know that "nosy neighbor Agnes" was also a powerful witch, and possibly the best/only person to take Wanda down.  Agatha's mind didn't seem to be wiped (just partially suppressed), so she might be able to convince them to help her to lift the spell.  The next time she's in Westview, Wanda could be entering a trap.

[cambridgeguy]

27 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Starting to think it wasn't such a great idea for Wanda to leave Agatha in Westview.  When she eventually returns to get Agatha, she'll have to go back to a place that she associates with loss, and where the people view her with hostility.  Plus, the people's memories weren't wiped - they'll know that "nosy neighbor Agnes" was also a powerful witch, and possibly the best/only person to take Wanda down.  Agatha's mind didn't seem to be wiped (just partially suppressed), so she might be able to convince them to help her to lift the spell.  The next time she's in Westview, Wanda could be entering a trap.

In reality Wu, the FBI, and whoever else gets involved in the cleanup would never allow Agatha to just live out her life as a sitcom cliche.  At the very least she'd be monitored 24/7.

As for Wanda, she probably thinks that the next time she talks to Agatha she'll be so powerful that any trap would be meaningless. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Starting to think it wasn't such a great idea for Wanda to leave Agatha in Westview.  When she eventually returns to get Agatha, she'll have to go back to a place that she associates with loss, and where the people view her with hostility.  Plus, the people's memories weren't wiped - they'll know that "nosy neighbor Agnes" was also a powerful witch, and possibly the best/only person to take Wanda down.  Agatha's mind didn't seem to be wiped (just partially suppressed), so she might be able to convince them to help her to lift the spell.  The next time she's in Westview, Wanda could be entering a trap.

Anything's possible, but it does not seem like most Westview residents would know who Agatha is at all, let alone that she was a witch.  It is unclear if people have detailed memories of what happened while they were under the spell, and it seems like few people interacted with the "stars" of the show except in passing while it was underway. The Agatha All Along song was not broadcast, as far as we know. 

As for this episode, obviously most people were not in the town square when Agatha was using her power. We saw maybe a couple dozen people of the thousands that Wanda had under her spell. Those dozens seemed to have their attention exclusively focused on Wanda. Even assuming some glanced around, the best they would have gotten was a chance to see a figure 50  feet or more away in the air. Some might have heard Agatha talking, but it seems like it would be a stretch to connect that figure to nosy neighbor Agnes. And the townfolk had vacated the town center by the time Wanda brought Agatha back to earth. It seems believable to me that the average person would not link up the distant sarcastic figure that they saw with the friendly neighbor that they come to know. 

Even in a worst-case scenario, it seems unlikely that the people of Westview are going to be able to get the wherewithal to help break Wanda's spell. Your average muggle is not going to know where to get the stuff to make a restoring potion or how to incant spells. Wanda did say "No one will bother you." So maybe she will make it so in true sitcom fashion, Agnes is unwelcome wherever she goes, making a teamup like this impossible.

On the other hand, it might be interesting if Hayward or other SWORD people decided that the enemy of their enemy was their friend. SWORD presumably does have access to resources.

Despite Darcy's quip about "Have fun in prison!" it seems to me there isn't exactly a guarantee that charges will stick against him. 

Creating White Vision and sending him to attack Wanda and WV Vision doesn't seem like it's likely to result in a conviction.

Shooting at the twins and potentially trying to ram them (although he might have been trying to just get away like the coward he is)-- though ill-advised , immoral, etc.-- doesn't seem guaranteed either. First, the twins aren't necessarily "people" legally speaking. Even assuming that they are, he could argue justification that they had attacked the other soldiers and he was shooting in defense of himself and others. He could not get in trouble for shooting at Monica because she jumped in the way of the bullets and he clearly did not intend to shoot at her. 

Anyway, the SWORD people on site possibly witnessed some of the events of the finale, but I think that they had mostly been mindwhammied by Billy, so I don't think they would be able to connect Agnes to Agatha. The only ones who weren't were Hayward and his immediate subordinate. The SWORD people who were trying to track the identities of the Westview people presumably didn't find out who Agnes is but that too shouldn't lead them to suspect she's a witch. 

The only surviving people who know the truth about Agatha from firsthand observation are Monica, Hayward, Hayward's assistant and Darcy (possibly).

Ralph may have memories of having been Fietro, and assuming that the Westview residents eventually are able to  get their hands on the recordings of WandaVision, he may wonder about his time as Fietro or that he deduce that he was Agnes's Ralph.  Presumably, Monica  or Darcy will eventually tell Jimmy about Agatha.

7 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

In reality Wu, the FBI, and whoever else gets involved in the cleanup would never allow Agatha to just live out her life as a sitcom cliche.  At the very least she'd be monitored 24/7.

Jimmy and the FBI probably have no inherent idea that there ever was another witch in Westview at all, let alone that Agatha was that witch and that Agatha is Agnes. They were outside the Hex when the fighting happened and presumably had little ability to perceive what was going on inside. 

Maybe Monica would tell Jimmy and that would lead to them quietly monitoring Agnes. 

[Cotypubby]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There in fact is no reason as things stand that Wanda cannot use a spell to re-revive WV Vision and the boys, other than she still does not know exactly how she did it. 

Yeah, I really don’t understand why she couldn’t just do this. Their goodbye scene didn’t really make me feel anything because  I just thought “Can’t she just recreate them again?”

Edited March 8, 2021 by Cotypubby

[Chicago Redshirt]

So one of the things I'm wondering about is is Wanda not guilty of crimes by reason of insanity?

There are different tests for insanity in different jurisdictions.

To walk through some scenarios, a person who takes an ax to the head of an innocent person is ordinarily a murderer.

But they could be not guilty by reason of insanity if:

1. Mental illness caused them to think they were chopping firewood.

2. They appreciated they were taking an ax to a person's head but mental illness caused them to not know that taking an ax to an innocent person was wrong or not.

3. They understood they were taking an ax to an innocent person's head and that doing so was wrong, but mental illness meant they couldn't control themselves.

A hybrid standard might go something like this:

Did a mental illness cause Wanda to be unable to know what she was doing, to not know what she was doing was wrong, to not be able to change her behavior to the requirements of the law, to act impulsively or uncontrollably?

There's no question that Wanda is suffering from grief and PTSD. 

And there's no question that she did not intentionally create the Hex or know how she did it.

But she was (as far as we saw) capable of telling right from wrong because of her grief/PTSD.  

She seemed to know that she had some level of control over the Westview residents. Even if she did not instinctively know, she was explicitly told this by Vision and Fietro.

In this episode, she tells the awoken Westview residents that she thought they were at peace. And I'm not sure how we are to read that. Does she truly believe that and is the denial that deep? Is that how she rationalized things? Is she straight-up lying to them?

Even if she thought that she was giving the Westview residents happy and peaceful lives, what she was doing would still be criminal.

Could she have let the people of Westview go at any time? it sure seems that way. But it took the villain of the story reminding her that heroes don't torture people AND them confronting her with the fact that she was causing them nightmares, AND an eruption of power from her choking them AND pleas to let them just die for her to do the right thing. 

How deep is her denial? 

[questionfear]

7 hours ago, Kromm said:

Maybe. Although I think Westview is likely Southern NJ, not only based on the environment of the town, but also because Wanda originally appeared to have driven there from SWORD HQ, which had the vibe of being somewhere in a Central or Southern State. 

Even south Jersey is at most a 3 hour drive from NYC. Central Jersey is about an hour. There are parts of northern NJ that can spit on Manhattan, and there are parts of central-west NJ that can almost see NYC on a clear night on top of a mountain (or what we consider mountains around here). 

I think there are two likely answers: one is that Agatha immediately cloaked the magical signature of the Hex so no one else came while she was investigating, or two that Strange was so busy dealing with other items that he was out of range (which honestly could tie in with Agatha as well, since Agatha could have sensed it first and cloaked it before Strange could due to proximity). 

[arc]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Creating White Vision and sending him to attack Wanda and WV Vision doesn't seem like it's likely to result in a conviction.

He was going to frame Wanda for reviving Vision, which he reiterated in this episode was an illegal action. It's not entirely clear the FBI has the goods on him for that, though the email Darcy sent Jimmy is probably enough cause to get a search warrant for the rest.

[GustavMahler]

I was emotionally distant while watching this final episode. Why? Because I kept thinking how Wanda mind raped an entire community so she can circumvent the grieving process that we all must experience. She used he powers for evil and there is no excuse for the abuses she put upon that community. So when her two phony kids were going to be wiped, my thoughts were good as it never should have come to this in the first place. When phoney Vision was being wiped, my thought was, who cares as they already created a replacement. And then to have Rambo declare that no one will know the sacrifice that Wanda made, I cringed. To completely disregard the victims in this mind game charade, was absolutely disgusting. But, just like Wonder Woman being able to rape a unwilling vessel harboring her former lover's essence, it is ok for Wanda to do what she did. 

[Kel Varnsen]

15 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

In reality Wu, the FBI, and whoever else gets involved in the cleanup would never allow Agatha to just live out her life as a sitcom cliche.  At the very least she'd be monitored 24/7.

Except what exactly would they charge Agatha with, other than some made up Sokovia accords bullshit. She could make a pretty good argument that she was using her powers to try and stop Wanda who was the real criminal. And with Wanda hiding out in some unknown cabin who could say otherwise?

Edited March 8, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, GustavMahler said:

I was emotionally distant while watching this final episode. Why? Because I kept thinking how Wanda mind raped an entire community so she can circumvent the grieving process that we all must experience. She used he powers for evil and there is no excuse for the abuses she put upon that community. So when her two phony kids were going to be wiped, my thoughts were good as it never should have come to this in the first place. When phoney Vision was being wiped, my thought was, who cares as they already created a replacement. And then to have Rambo declare that no one will know the sacrifice that Wanda made, I cringed. To completely disregard the victims in this mind game charade, was absolutely disgusting. But, just like Wonder Woman being able to rape a unwilling vessel harboring her former lover's essence, it is ok for Wanda to do what she did. 

I can feel bad for Wanda in her grief just as a would anyone, and I can even understand what happened to the town because she didn’t do it intentionally, but the second she knew what was going on the morally right thing would’ve been to take down the hex and let everyone go. The ONLY choice would’ve been to do that immediately. 

So I didn’t like Monica’s statement either. Wanda’s emotions were real, but (her) Vision was dead and her children were created by her wish fulfillment hex. Yes, we had Wanda’s powers we may have unintentionally done something like that, but it doesn’t make us a hero for undoing it. Especially because she just didn’t build a false life in a town, she altered the realities of EVERY citizen. 
 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, arc said:

He was going to frame Wanda for reviving Vision, which he reiterated in this episode was an illegal action. It's not entirely clear the FBI has the goods on him for that, though the email Darcy sent Jimmy is probably enough cause to get a search warrant for the rest.

The key is what evidence do they have that would prove whatever beyond a reasonable doubt?

The files on Project Cataract that Darcy hacked her way to? Almost certainly inadmissible because they were obtained illegally. Any legitimate warrant to  obtain them would likely be called into question because of the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine. Even if that were admissible, there would be legitimate questions as to whether Darcy changed things in her hack.

White Vision himself? Gone to places unknown.

Witnesses to White Vision? SWORD people who presumably aren't going to flip, possibly Westview residents who were busy being traumatized and who probably did not see much of the Vision fight and Monica, Darcy and Jimmy. Even though our three amigos would be telling the truth, a decent defense attorney should be able to create reasonable doubt attacking them for bias, ability to recall (with both Monica and Darcy having been under mind control) and on other grounds. 

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Except what exactly would they charge Agatha with, other than some made up Sokovia accords bullshit. She could make a pretty good argument that she was using her powers to try and stop Wanda who was the real criminal. And with Wanda hiding out in some unknown cabin who could say otherwise?

Assuming that they did know who Agatha was and what she is capable of, they would not have to charge her with anything to keep her under some level of surveillance. The Sokovia Accords are of course BS but it seems given that they exist, there presumably is a process to monitor enhanced individuals.

[questionfear]

12 hours ago, arc said:

He was going to frame Wanda for reviving Vision, which he reiterated in this episode was an illegal action. It's not entirely clear the FBI has the goods on him for that, though the email Darcy sent Jimmy is probably enough cause to get a search warrant for the rest.

Also, he knew fully well that Wanda had somehow conjured up a new Vision since he had famous original flavor Vision back at SWORD HQ. He used that as an excuse to take military action, PLUS he was probably illegally experimenting on Vision's body. 

But I think the biggest thing is that he was willing to and anxious to take violent military action EVEN AFTER knowing it was a magical anomaly; he had no reason to be sending a drone into a civilian location and launching missiles, he was told repeatedly by people familiar with superheroes and powers that he needed to take this cautiously, that the wrong action could be civilian lives at risk, and he lied and doctored evidence to get the military response he wanted. Even if he didn't break US law, he probably violated whatever rules SWORD operates under with his attempts to manipulate the situation. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

Also, he knew fully well that Wanda had somehow conjured up a new Vision since he had famous original flavor Vision back at SWORD HQ. He used that as an excuse to take military action, PLUS he was probably illegally experimenting on Vision's body. 

But I think the biggest thing is that he was willing to and anxious to take violent military action EVEN AFTER knowing it was a magical anomaly; he had no reason to be sending a drone into a civilian location and launching missiles, he was told repeatedly by people familiar with superheroes and powers that he needed to take this cautiously, that the wrong action could be civilian lives at risk, and he lied and doctored evidence to get the military response he wanted. Even if he didn't break US law, he probably violated whatever rules SWORD operates under with his attempts to manipulate the situation. 

Regardless of his knowing that WV Vision wasn't real, Hayward was entitled to take military action. Something had put up a weird barrier and was holding thousands of people hostage. He did not need to lie about Original Recipe Vision to do what he did.

With regard to experimenting on Vision's body, the questions I have include: what about it makes it a crime? What could be proven in court? What defenses might there be to prevent a conviction?

It does not seem the mere possession of Vision's body is a crime. Hayward claims that SWORD was legally entitled to dismantle him, and though of course Hayward is an untrustworthy narrator, there is nothing that indicates he's wrong. It seems clear that in trying to  weaponize Vision's remains that SWORD is going against Vision's living will and its activities are likely illegal in that sense. But that doesn't make them a crime. What crime was it?

In terms of attempting to shoot Wanda with a msisile, I think that that decision could be described as irresponsible, short-sighted, reckless and all sorts of other things. But it couldn't realistically be considered criminal. Under the facts as Hayward knew them, thousands of people were being held hostage by Wanda and forced to act out her sitcom fantasies while having their mind and will violated. Even though Monica was right that it could not predicted what would happen if Wanda was killed, one can't rule out that Haywrd's call wasn't reasonable. let alone suggest that it was criminal

[Guest]

This article is very interesting. 
‘WandaVision’ Director Matt Shakman Reveals Huge Changes To The Finale

There was a cut scene from the finale involving  the twins, Ralph, Monica and Darcy trying to steal the Darkhold. It would have revealed that the rabbit was a demon ( I knew it!). 

He also said that aerospace engineer was supposed to have a payoff scene but it was removed when people speculated it was Reed Richards. 

I’m disappointed. It sounds like the deleted scene would have shored up some of the weaker parts of the finale. 

[Ottis]

On 3/7/2021 at 8:33 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

TPTB chose the simplest explanation for everything - that Wanda solely created the Hex and that when she took it down, she lost WV Vision and the boys along with it. That wasn't necessarily the path that they had to go down.

It could have been that Wanda herself did not create it, but another entity created it to trap or trick her. The common theory was that a devil-figure called Mephisto had created it as a temptation. Another common theory was that Wanda was opening up portals to other realities and that it would be the vehicle for the introduction of mutants and the X-Men.

I'm not sure what point you are making here. Yes, *many* things could have been. But they weren't. And the path the show went down was exactly what appeared to be true in ep 2 or 3, so ...

The WaPo has a good article on WandaVision. You may need a sub, but basically the writer states that the show didn't hold Wanda accountable for her actions (i.e. she should have gone to jail, as I had posted) because, for some reason, the fact she was grieving seems to have excused her acts. I feel like this show tried to manipulate viewers with the long, drawn-out "Wanda is grieving" plot so that when her heinous world all came down, she was excused.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/08/wandavision-finale-grief-scarlet-witch/

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I'm not sure what point you are making here. Yes, *many* things could have been. But they weren't. And the path the show went down was exactly what appeared to be true in ep 2 or 3, so ...

You seem to be claiming that rhe outcome of the show was predictable as far back as episodes 2 and 3. 

I am pointing out that there were many possible outcomes, which suggests that things aren't as predictable as you are claiming. 

I should also point out that the soonest that one could really predict these things was around Episode 4 or 5, when we saw that Westview was a real place, that it wasn't a hallucination, a trip through alternate realities, etc. 

[tarotx]

Wanda was a broken women. She had to kill her "soul' mate for half of humanity to live and it was for nothing. Then she had to watch him be murdered. Then she was snapped to come back to Vision's body gone but the world was about to be on fire in minutes. She had fight the big bad who killed her love. Then she had funerals to attend and Steve went back to the past (most of the people she would hung with after her brother died were now dead or gone. The the scene at Sword happened. All of that within in a month (on top of everything that has happened in her life). So when reading Vision's deed at the place where their home would have been,  Wanda snapped. 

If this was real life she would be sent to some type of mental help and deserving so. But like the Hulk she is now isolated herself after causing suffering. And for the time being she has lost her family again. This is kind of the 5th time she has lost her family. That is why she couldn't just let the Hex disappear as she was watching Vision and her boys be ripped apart. It had to feel exactly like ripping the stone from Vision.

 

[shireenbamfatheon]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I can feel bad for Wanda in her grief just as a would anyone, and I can even understand what happened to the town because she didn’t do it intentionally, but the second she knew what was going on the morally right thing would’ve been to take down the hex and let everyone go. The ONLY choice would’ve been to do that immediately. 

So I didn’t like Monica’s statement either. Wanda’s emotions were real, but (her) Vision was dead and her children were created by her wish fulfillment hex. Yes, we had Wanda’s powers we may have unintentionally done something like that, but it doesn’t make us a hero for undoing it. Especially because she just didn’t build a false life in a town, she altered the realities of EVERY citizen. 
 

 

 

Yeah, I guess I'm an unfeeling jerk, but personally, "she only mentally tortured people for a week or so, and then kept staying in denial whenever something reminded her of reality, because she was grieving" feels like a terrible excuse for, you know, mentally torturing the citizens of a whole town. Like, cool motive still torture. Maybe if the show hadn't spent so much time emphasizing how absolutely horrible Wanda's torture of those people were, I wouldn't have come out of the show feeling like it was a cop-out to introduce another basic cartoon MCU villain so the "hero" can appear morally pure, even though their actions contradict them. "They will never know what you sacrificed." Give me a break. If she was Tony Stark, the next ten MCU movies would focus on the villains born from her actions.

Edited March 8, 2021 by shireenbamfatheon

[Scarlett45]

26 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

"They will never know what you sacrificed." Give me a break. If she was Tony Stark, the next ten MCU movies would focus on the villains born from her actions.

I almost spit out my water when you said that. 

 I think she crossed the moral horizon when she took the 80s(?) drone back and told them (SWORD) to stay away from her family. Then she KNEW exactly what she was doing and that it was wrong (forgive me I cannot recall which episode that was). Now had that been episode 8, and episode 9 was her dealing with Agatha and fixing things I would feel a bit differently. 

 

My godmother is in hospice, and it wont be long now, so we are in our feelings about this subject, this quote got me right in the heart. 

Quote

Vision: I have been a voice with no body. A body, but not human. And now a memory made real. Who knows what I might be next? We have said goodbye before, so it stands to reason…

Wanda Maximoff: We’ll say hello again.

This show might just be what I need right now. (My friend sent me that tweet two days ago)

[Chicago Redshirt]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I almost spit out my water when you said that. 

 I think she crossed the moral horizon when she took the 80s(?) drone back and told them (SWORD) to stay away from her family. Then she KNEW exactly what she was doing and that it was wrong (forgive me I cannot recall which episode that was). Now had that been episode 8, and episode 9 was her dealing with Agatha and fixing things I would feel a bit differently. 

That was episode 5. 

And while I don't agree at all with this point of view, Wanda at that point could still have been ignorant of what torture she was inflicting on the Westview citizens.

If we take what she was saying in this episode at face value, she thought that the people of Westview were at peace while she was puppetering them. It didn't sink in when Vision told her that she was torturing people way back in episode 4. It didn't matter that Fietro speculated about how she kept the children offline unless they were specifically needed for a plot as an act of mercy to stop them from being tortured. Neither of those things sank in.

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

And while I don't agree at all with this point of view, Wanda at that point could still have been ignorant of what torture she was inflicting on the Westview citizens.

If we take what she was saying in this episode at face value, she thought that the people of Westview were at peace while she was puppetering them. It didn't sink in when Vision told her that she was torturing people way back in episode 4. It didn't matter that Fietro speculated about how she kept the children offline unless they were specifically needed for a plot as an act of mercy to stop them from being tortured. Neither of those things sank in.

Oh I see. I think once Wanda realized that she was pupetting people, THAT was when she should have immediately started trying to fix what she did. I hope I am being being clear- its one thing to create the hex on accident, the next thing is once she knew she was controlling people was to work to fix it, IMMEDIATELY (even if she didn't realize the citizens were in pain). Now if Agatha had got in the way and stopped her from trying to undo the hex, and she had to battle Agatha before she could set things right, I would be understanding toward's Wanda.

Am I making sense? Believing the people were happy was NO excuse for knowingly continuing the Hex, I think the writers could have set it up better to make Wanda better person to have her try to undo things sooner, but be thrawarted by Agatha. (is that a word?-lol) No I dont see Wanda as a hero who made a sacrifice.

[Chicago Redshirt]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I see. I think once Wanda realized that she was pupetting people, THAT was when she should have immediately started trying to fix what she did. I hope I am being being clear- its one thing to create the hex on accident, the next thing is once she knew she was controlling people was to work to fix it, IMMEDIATELY (even if she didn't realize the citizens were in pain). Now if Agatha had got in the way and stopped her from trying to undo the hex, and she had to battle Agatha before she could set things right, I would be understanding toward's Wanda.

Am I making sense? Believing the people were happy was NO excuse for knowingly continuing the Hex, I think the writers could have set it up better to make Wanda better person to have her try to undo things sooner, but be thrawarted by Agatha. (is that a word?-lol) No I dont see Wanda as a hero who made a sacrifice.

You are making 100 percent sense and I 100 percent agree.

I think if we look at Wanda in the best possible light, she knew early on that she was controlling what was going on in Westview on some level, including people's actions. She could have chosen to let people go but did not.

IMO if Wanda really believed that the people of Westview were happy to be about that sitcom life, it's still a crime and immoral. But it is at least it's understandable and one could see a rationalization for it.

But if she understood that the people of Westview were in torment, it becomes not merely immoral but straight-up evil. 

[Dandesun]

Yeah, I don't believe Wanda really understood what was going on until the absolute end. She never got a full picture herself. She didn't think she was controlling anyone. She thought she had created a place where everyone could be happy -- she didn't separate families, their 'core personalities' remained unchanged, they had better jobs, at least that's how Fietro put it but, then again, he was puppeted by Agatha.

She basically dove into this world she didn't fully realize she even made because it was a balm for the grief. And yes, she fought against the initial invasions of that perfect world like the 'beekeeper' and Vision saying he felt there was something wrong. Vision and Fietro pointing things out really confused her and then, yes, got her back up... because I get the concept of having your dream come true being not what you thought it was.

The thing is, none of this was pre-meditated and there was no evil intent. When she came face to face with the reality, of the various people telling her what they were actually going through she was horrified, she lashed out again and then tried to let them go. And ultimately, took the whole thing down and in doing so, lost it all again. It appears the hex lasted about a week, maybe slightly more. I'm not saying a week is nothing but the vast majority of that time, Wanda didn't know she was hurting anyone else. And she didn't seem to think she was controlling anyone, either. When Vision confronted her in the 80s she was pretty adamant about not being able to control everyone everywhere and from what I could see, she honestly believed that.

Then you have Monica who remained sympathetic the whole time while Agatha only wanted to figure out how Wanda did it so she could have that information for herself. I know there are a few who think Agatha is the hero. I disagree. Agatha wanted Wanda's power. The episode where we went through Wanda's life wasn't Agatha giving her therapy. It was Agatha dissecting Wanda -- against her will -- just as surely as SWORD had been dissecting Vision. For her own gain. "I absorb the magic of the unworthy... it's my thing." I can't say Agatha is someone I would trust regarding who is or isn't worthy. She certainly had no problem taking Ralph and turning him into her own meat puppet and she very clearly didn't want Monica talking Wanda down or getting through to her before Agatha could get Wanda's secrets first. She certainly didn't free anyone in Westview because it was the right thing to do or out of the goodness of her heart... she did it to get at Wanda.

Wanda is right that her motivations or what she lost wouldn't change how the people of Westview see her. And that's as it should be. But Monica also understood what she would have done with the same powers. Wanda went off to learn about her powers which will, indeed, make her more dangerous but also likely to not make inadvertent pocket worlds. I don't see Wanda as a villain although obviously people's mileage varies on that.

Agatha? Yes, I'd say so. Hayward? Absolutely yes. But I don't see Wanda as evil.

[tarotx]

Wanda's not a good guy in the season but she's not a villain. The season is basically her Chaos magic controlled by her stages of grief. 

Episode 1-5 she is in denial/anger and trying to be happy living in a world everything would be fixed by the end of the episode. She even tried rolling the credits early during episode 5. This episode the boys kept aging up and they got a dog without her permission. The Sword agents try to kill her and her family using a stark drone. That's the second time Wanda's family is threatened by a missile connected to Stark. It freaks her out. She just wants sword to leave her alone. Kind of the beginning of Bargaining here. 

Then the dog dies but Wanda has a little control when she talks the boys out of aging up again. She & Vision get in this super heated fight because he knows something horrible is happening to the townspeople but Wanda is trying to be in denial still so she rolls the credits. It doesn't work this time but then Fietro comes. The commercial in episode 5 is the Lagos fix your mistakes paper towels. 

The next episode 6 Wanda tries bargaining/negotiating and gives the townspeople their children. Fietro turns out to not be her brother and Vision is almost ripped to pieces when he tries to leave the hex.

And episode 7 finds Wanda in depression and Agatha gets Wanda's children. Episode 8 Wanda is still in the depression stage as we learn her back story.

Episode 9 Wanda slowly accepts what has to happen and removes the hex.

This is part one of this journey for Wanda. There will be blow back for her. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by tarotx
Misspellings :(

[Perfect Xero]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That was episode 5. 

And while I don't agree at all with this point of view, Wanda at that point could still have been ignorant of what torture she was inflicting on the Westview citizens.

If we take what she was saying in this episode at face value, she thought that the people of Westview were at peace while she was puppetering them. It didn't sink in when Vision told her that she was torturing people way back in episode 4. It didn't matter that Fietro speculated about how she kept the children offline unless they were specifically needed for a plot as an act of mercy to stop them from being tortured. Neither of those things sank in.

Maybe this can be a plot for the She-Hulk series:

"Okay, Ms. Maximoff, the prosecution says that you enslaved an entire town full of people and tortured them for about a week. This is going to be a tough case, but we're the firm that got Tony Stark a month of community service for the whole Ultron thing and Hawkeye house arrest for an international murder spree, so I'm sure we can point to-"

"I was completely ignorant of what was happening, I had no idea until the very end."

"The prosecution has the testimony of a Mr. Ralph Bohner, Mr. John Collins, several SWORD agents, and a mysterious white sythenzoid that indicate that you were in fact told several times that you were torturing these people?"

"Yes, but I have a great explanation for that!"

"Great, let's hear it ..."

"I chose not to believe them!"

*Narrator voice* "It was at this moment that Jen realized that her client might be in trouble."

[Sakura12]

I'm going to have to think somehow Wanda knew what she was doing from the beginning, since she kept kids in comas. If she thought the town was at peace why wouldn't the children be around too.

She then created and spent time with her kids while not letting the townspeople be with their kids. And they knew their kids were locked in their rooms. The For the Children has another meaning now. I actually wonder if the kids were spared her reliving her pain in their dreams, since the adults all said they shared her dreams. 

Monica can understand and forgive her, but she didn't sacrifice anything for the people of Westview. She traumatized a bunch of innocent people for her own gain. I know she was hurting but that doesn't excuse what she did. You don't get to create the problem, then clean up that problem and call yourself a hero. 

Also if we look at it she may not have lost what she sacrificed. Vision is alive again and it sounds like the kids are somewhere too. So she is just separated from them now. While hundreda of people will probably need years of therapy after what Wanda did and she just walked away from them. 

As for Agatha she could claim she was trying to help but Wanda was too powerful. She was actually the one that freed them all from Wanda's control. And she actually made Wanda confront her traumas both in the past and present. I wouldn't neccesarily call her the hero of the story since she just wanted Wanda's powers. But she can claim she was and even to the townspeople she can look like she was trying to take Wanda down. Wanda's not there to say otherwise.

[peachmangosteen]

There's no UO thread so I guess I'll just put it here: I did not like Agatha. Sure, I found her entertaining in a few moments (probably most especially when she was talking about how loud kid Pietro was) but overall I just did not enjoy her whether she was Agnes or Agatha. 

[Perfect Xero]

One thing about Fietro/Ralph is that people seem to be assuming that he's really an actor named "Ralph Bohner" because that's what the head shots we saw in his house said, but he and his home were inside the Hex the entire time, so presumably had been overwritten into the sitcom reality like everyone else in Westview before Agatha got hold of him and turned him into Fietro.

An actor neighbor with a last name that sounds like "Boner" (likely a reference to Mike's wacky friend on Growing Pains) seems more like something conjured up by Wanda's sitcom loving brain than the true identity of the guy who got stuck as Fietro.

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I was wondering if Agatha-as-Agnes was just riffing on sitcom stuff with all the "my husband Ralph" high-libido business, or if she was actually behind the scenes sleeping with Fietro while he was under possibly two layers of mind control. 

[tennisgurl]

Ralph Boner totally sounds like the name of a wacky neighbor in an 80s sitcom. The audience would cheer every time he walked into the house uninvited and everyone would be all "go away Ralph" but he never would. No one makes the sensible choice of locking the door and changing the locks if they keep breaking in. 

Did anyone start getting Too Many Cooks vibes from this show after awhile? 

 

[Keywestclubkid]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ralph Boner totally sounds like the name of a wacky neighbor in an 80s sitcom. The audience would cheer every time he walked into the house uninvited and everyone would be all "go away Ralph" but he never would. No one makes the sensible choice of locking the door and changing the locks if they keep breaking in. 

Did anyone start getting Too Many Cooks vibes from this show after awhile? 

 

Boner was on growing pains he was the best friend

[Anela]

I was crying really hard when she was saying goodbye to her family. I came here, because I was curious about the very end - what exactly was happening.

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, Anela said:

I was crying really hard when she was saying goodbye to her family. I came here, because I was curious about the very end - what exactly was happening.

You mean the post-credit scene at the very end? We think Wanda was astral projecting, so that her subconscious could be learning as much as possible about magic from the Darkhold (bad book, really shouldn't touch) while her physical self was resting and recovering, in isolation.

[benteen]

Very much enjoyed the series finale and sorry that WandaVision is now over.  Emotional ending.  This series was very effective, to use a wrestling term, in really getting Wanda as well as Vision over.

[Ilovepie]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:51 AM, benteen said:

Very much enjoyed the series finale

Me too. I was not sure at the beginning but I became invested. I would love to see where this goes with the White Vision and her hearing those kids in that book. But more fool me because I didn't realize this was not a stand alone show much like Mandalorian is for Star Wars. I didn't realize I would now have to watch a movie to see how this plays out and that there is no second season. I have zero interest in Marvel Movies. I guess I was the only person on the planet who didn't know this. I was going to watch Loki and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but now I'm not sure....

[arc]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

But more fool me because I didn't realize this was not a stand alone show much like Mandalorian is for Star Wars.

Much like how the comics themselves are open-ended and roll from cliffhanger to cliffhanger every issue, the MCU is also a relay race.

But to be fair they usually try to tell a complete story within one work and just leave a few dangling threads to hook to the next instalment. Wanda moved through the stages of grief* and came out the other side.

* side note: as I understand it, Kubler Ross did not intend the stages of grief to be a literal linear pipeline from one end to the other. But stories need arcs.

[Megras]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

 I didn't realize I would now have to watch a movie to see how this plays out and that there is no second season. I have zero interest in Marvel Movies.

It's not a movie it's a double/triple length episode *Jedi hand gesture*

Problem solved.

 

[Ilovepie]

12 minutes ago, Megras said:

It's not a movie it's a double/triple length episode *Jedi hand gesture*

Problem solved.

 

Ha! I probably should not have even bothered with this show. I am not really a fan of super hero stuff and have not really seen too many Marvel movies. The minute they all started flying around fighting each other I started losing interest. In Truth, I prefer tv to movies, and I have enjoyed most of the original Disney + content which is why I decided to try this.  I probably should leave these Disney+ MCU shows alone going forward if they are just going to be interwoven with the MCU movies. I guess I'll just wait for Bad Batch to start 😜

[Sandman]

On 3/5/2021 at 4:19 AM, vb68 said:

While her witch-self eats up knowledge. She’s becoming something new, something stronger. 

 

On 3/5/2021 at 4:19 AM, vb68 said:

So she was split in two then? That's what I thought, but wasn't sure I knew what she was doing or her motive.

I thought it was more a representation of how capable she is (still) of maintaining focus on a few different things simultaneously; she's multi-tasking, essentially. She could maintain the whole town full of separate illusions or creations, until things began to fray. Now it seems she can hang out in her lonely cabin of exile, enjoying the view, while at the same time studying the Darkhold (I think it was the Darkhold).

On 3/5/2021 at 7:10 AM, arc said:

Paul Bettany and Elizabeth Olsen were consistently great in this whole series. A delight as the sitcom couple and so much chemistry as star-crossed lovers.

Their chemistry is remarkable; enough to make me forget how ooky I usually find the thought of mutant (or whatever Wanda is)-synthezoid sexytimes. Elizabeth Olsen is fantastic in this.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Sandman

[Sandman]

On 3/8/2021 at 6:24 PM, Dandesun said:

Agatha? Yes, I'd say so. Hayward? Absolutely yes. But I don't see Wanda as evil.

I'd agree: Wanda is messed up, and wilfully blind at some point, but it's hard for me to think of her as evil. The other two, certainly.

Did the US government in the MCU learn absolutely nothing from the history of S.H.I.E.L.D.? S.W.O.R.D. (and, boy, somebody really, REALLY wanted to name that agency S.W.O.R.D.) seems even more corruptible and dependent on the agenda-slash-whims of one man.

[KimberStormer]

Hi guys; I have not read anything anyone else has written in this forum.  I don't really want to because I've seen enough reactions to the show to know the way people in general have taken it and reading the stuff people say often bums me out.  But I want to write this somewhere and I guess this forum is the one I feel safest on, with my Survivor friends on it, although I know I haven't posted in forever.  I asked the mod and they said I should post in this thread for my whole-season thoughts.

My sister persuaded me to watch.  I have seen maybe 10% of the Marvel movies?  And in general I am not a big fan.  I liked the first Iron Man very much and I love Spider-verse, but otherwise I am pretty meh on all the rest I've seen.  And indeed once it was CGI laser fighting I was disappointed, though of course I knew going in that that would eventually be coming.  I was only disappointed because what came before was very moving to me.

My mother died when I was 9 and from then it was like a festival of death for my family and loved ones, boom boom boom everyone dying and before I was out of high school my siblings and I were orphans with zero other family members left.  More death was to come but thank god not my siblings, like Wanda lost Pietro, or a boyfriend/husband like Wanda lost Vision.  Now 20 years later I have been thinking alot about it, and WandaVision helped me to see and acknowledge it, how I was, like Wanda, holding up by sheer will an illusion that I was just fine! normal teenager! yeah that sucked but hey I am doing great, don't worry about me!!!  And not just to fool the world, but to fool myself.  I mean, I would avoid the topic of parents, I would use ambiguous language so I didn't have to lie that they were alive but also not admit they were dead, but I thought that was because I was Totally Fine and didn't want a lot of drama.  I was not fine.  I think of it now and I see so clearly how not fine I was.

I think there's no part of this show I identified with more than when she leaves the Hex to throw the drone at Hayward's feet.  I have seen discussion (maybe not here, but elsewhere) where people suggested that wasn't really Wanda, because she didn't really know what she was doing while she was inside her fantasy in the Hex, so how could she defend it?  But wow, was I exactly the same; I did not consciously know I was putting on an act of Healthy Happy KimberStormer, but I certainly consciously knew to defend it whenever anyone tried to butt in and threatened that illusion.  And I knew, like Wanda, that they were not doing it because they cared about me; they wanted something, creepy professors at school who figured out something was up and wanted to pry into my life, "mentor" me, or whatever.  If I had magical powers I would have blasted them away, no question.

I remember times when, like the beekeeper, reality would intrude -- maybe some trouble with financial aid at school or having to get a co-sign for my first apartment or whatever, something I couldn't deal with on my own and I had nobody to help me, and how it would terrify me, reveal that illusion, make me see myself lost and alone and shivering with fear, and I too would rewind, push away, deny and delay, hide and ignore and pretend.  And I feel like I never really adequately mourned, too busy pretending, even at 9 years old, that I was totally fine guys, no drama here, pay no attention to me.

So for me, Wanda doing these wacky sitcom antics, with all the strain and sadness and fear behind her eyes, well, I feel a deep deep connection.  I think the only thing I'd seen Elizabeth Olsen in was Wind River (which I didn't think much of, a lot of macho bullshit, and ugh Jeremy Renner gross, why is the super lame white guy the hero anyway) but now I feel like I want to watch everything she's in.  Except I don't know if I can handle Sorry For Your Loss, if she made me cry so much in this silly sitcom superhero show about grief, how destroyed would I be in a serious show about grief?

ALSO they totally nailed all the sitcom stuff perfectly, the production values, the theme songs (and I hate the music in Frozen so much, so it is surprising for me to admit that all the themes are perfection) etc etc, good show guys, it's just a shame about the superhero stuff, I do like Darcy tho--

Edited April 6, 2021 by KimberStormer