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S01.E09: The Series Finale

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1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

I know, it's a powerful book of dark magic hence it can look like whatever it wants but it has been in two different Marvel shows already (it also appeared in Season 3 of Runaways) and it had a consistent appearance so here it feels like Feige crapping on Marvel Television rather than paying tribute to it.

I don't think it's him crapping on it as much as simply being indifferent to it.  You care about this thing in SHIELD TV, then you need to care about THAT thing in SHIELD TV, then what about that other thing that happened in SHIELD TV?  I think it's a good decision, although as someone wanting to see the Cavalry in the movies (kinda over Coulson), I get the disappointment.

/TonyStarktoScottLang"Whoareyou?"gif

Edited by Lassus
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3 hours ago, tarotx said:

Evan Peters was used to give the audience the same WTF that Wanda was feeling with the emergence of her brother. It wasn't just to mess with fans for no reason other than to mess with us.

  Reveal spoiler

Though I did come in with the knowledge that Elizabeth Olsen is already filming for Doctor Strange. And that the young actors playing Billy and Tommy have posted social media stuff showing they are both near where DS2 is filming.

I know that Aaron Taylor-Johnson is more popular with a lot of forum posters than Even Peters. But my biggest (well, ONLY) bummer at the death of the Fox X-Men franchise was the thought of never seeing EP as Quicksilver again. IMO, he was the best thing about those movies. And I secretly hoped that since he was so popular, they'd work him into the MARVEL/Disney universe. So when he appeared at the door, I was X-Static (sorry not sorry for taking advantage of that opportunity). Seriously. I paused, jumped on the laptop, got on Facebook, and posted, "Holy shit, Marvel did it - they figured out how to do it." "It" being how to get EP - if nobody else - into the MCU mutant future.

Having that come to nothing is beyond disappointing. I'd say crushing but that's getting too melodramatic. 

That said, the quote here from TAROTX here made me feel maybe a lot better than I thought I could. Because if that's the case, then that's just BRILLIANT. PERFECT. Sometimes it astounds me what good writing/continuity happens in the MCU. Thanks for saving what could have been a complete downer for me, TAROTX.

I'm an X-Men fan going waaaaaaay back. I collected and read nearly every single issue that came out from Giant-Size X-Men #1 (1975) through the mid-90's. There's no way now they can work EP in as Quicksilver. But I'll try to appreciate having been able to see him at least a little as the character in the MCU, and look forward to what they do with the Mutants in films to come.

Edited by FierceCritter · Reason: *from, not form*
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If they want to shove Shield aside, fine. But then don't go and reference blue soap, Daisy's hula figure and the Darkhold, all things which turned up in the Framework arc which incidentally was also about an alternate/fake reality in which regrets were removed. It's like they tried to delete that wonderful take on worlds based on wishful thinking.

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37 minutes ago, FierceCritter said:

I know that Aaron Taylor-Johnson is more popular with a lot of forum posters than Even Peters. But my biggest (well, ONLY) bummer at the death of the Fox X-Men franchise was the thought of never seeing EP as Quicksilver again. IMO, he was the best thing about those movies. And I secretly hoped that since he was so popular, they'd work him into the MARVEL/Disney universe. So when he appeared at the door, I was X-Static (sorry not sorry for taking advantage of that opportunity). Seriously. I paused, jumped on the laptop, got on Facebook, and posted, "Holy shit, Marvel did it - they figured out how to do it." "It" being how to get EP - if nobody else - into the MCU mutant future.

Having that come to nothing is beyond disappointing. I'd say crushing but that's getting too melodramatic. 

That said, the quote here from TAROTX here made me feel maybe a lot better than I thought I could. Because if that's the case, then that's just BRILLIANT. PERFECT. Sometimes it astounds me what good writing/continuity happens in the MCU. Thanks for saving what could have been a complete downer for me, TAROTX.

I'm an X-Men fan going waaaaaaay back. I collected and read nearly every single issue that came out from Giant-Size X-Men #1 (1975) through the mid-90's. There's no way now they can work EP in as Quicksilver. But I'll try to appreciate having been able to see him at least a little as the character in the MCU, and look forward to what they do with the Mutants in films to come.

Don't worry many agree with you. Evan Peters is more popular on other sites. I've seen all that you said brought up by many others. 

They wanted to be done with the X-Men movies that is fine. I understand and  completely get why they are going to. Still this reveal takes me back to Iron Man 3. Honestly I'd rather Peters been the bad guy or something. Chris Evans was both Captain American and Johnny Storm. So I have no issue with someone playing different roles. Peters just being a nobody in town who like in Iron Man 3 was an actor based on the headshot Monica found. Really this again?? 

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2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I thought that was a really terrible line (as well as Monica acting like the townsfolk will never understand her loss, as if that’s where the emphasis should be).

If they were going to place so much emphasis on how awful the Hex was for people stuck in it, they should have had Wanda (and the viewer predisposed to like Wanda) deal with that, rather than doing everything in the denouement to let her off the hook.

She doesn’t even speak to the townspeople after, or do anything to make amends, she just flies off and it’s all good because Monica has no problem with her.

I initially wondered if Wanda was going to turn herself in and the last scenes would be Doctor Strange coming to see her in a facility. I suppose one reason they may have not done so is because Wanda is still on the edge of a breakdown, and is just trying to avoid everything and everyone. 

I think viewers needed to see one more substantial scene between Monica and Wanda to establish why Monica was so willing to help, but it wasn't so severe a writing choice that I let it bother me much.

I feel like if Wanda had tried to speak to the townspeople they would have just blasted her one more time (rightfully so) and she might have snapped. I wish they had played that element up a little more at the end. 

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16 minutes ago, swanpride said:

But then don't go and reference blue soap, Daisy's hula figure and the Darkhold

I understand all this, and even why it's annoying.  But the blue soap isn't even mentioned in the Marvel Wiki for Identity and Change, and the Darkhold is from in the source material.  Hula girl was a (pretty quick) nod, totally granted.  I'm a massive fan and was always whining for AoS to be incorporated into the MCU way back, but.  I just don't see the WandaVision connections justifying agita for me.

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4 hours ago, Lassus said:

I know I should care about it.  But.  I don't.  I don't need every real-world consequence explored in my fantasy escapism.

My thoughts exactly...this show and all of MCU is my fun escape from reality. I don’t want to read debates about why they don’t face real world consequences. This show was amazing and I haven’t been excited about a TV show since Lost went off the air.  I can’t wait to see what happens next to my beloved Wanda and Vision.

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4 hours ago, swanpride said:

The hype aside, I think there were a lot of things in the finale which just didn't really feel like they fell into place perfectly. There was the way the townspeople acted...it didn't make sense that they were all running away without fetching their kids first (and I know, that was most likely due to budget restrains, but still), it didn't make sense how they were all standing around staring at Wanda in the end (at this point I would be either busy looking after my children, running away from Wanda screaming or trying to attack her in anger, none of this felt natural), the way Darcy just vanished, Monica's mini-role, the whole Vision vs Vision fight (I liked that it was solved by talking but not the fighting beforehand)...somehow all of this was clunky.

And I also can't really get behind the fact that after a season which was basically Wanda's trauma tango, we end with piling EVEN MORE trauma onto her, and she being AGAIN utterly alone to deal with it. After everything which happened I wanted someone at Wanda's side to help her. I mean, it is nice that Monica understands, but that doesn't change the fact that she isn't with Wanda to help her. And Wanda needs help, desperately. Her trauma isn't just gone because she confronted it, she still has a lot of healing to do. Never mind the new trauma of losing her f... children. Just...give her a break, please?

First, while the townspeople were angry at Wanda, they also know she's powerful and fear her. There's no way they would attack her. Also, it's possible they ran away when she said, but once things cleared they came back because of their children and the fact that that's their home. 

Second, I believe it's as @Chaos Theory said, this whole process was her cathartically going through the stages of grief. She was the source of the *extra* trauma of losing her children, though they're not really gone it seems. 
Someone else mentioned Wanda likely getting that help from Dr Strange and I think that may be the case too. 

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Now I expected this all to end very badly for Wanda and her to lose her family but she had time to heal and she had time to actually say goodbye to them this time so even though I cried alot I found it all very sweet and cathartic instead of just plain sad.   

Even though Wanda is still alone she is able to process it now.   I think before she was alone with no one.  Now at least she has friends.  Jimmy, Monica, Darcy.    She is processing her hurt.  Its a start.

This is exactly what I enjoyed and think was the point of this show. The cathartic release of dealing with the stages of grief. 

Wanda didn't meet Jimmy or Darcy. She only knows Monica is empathetic to her plight. 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Hah, Paul Bettany really was likely referring to the Vision/White Vision face-off when he was talking about working opposite of someone he has always wanted to "all his life."  You sly dog!

Vision vs. White Vision was fun, but it's almost fitting that it ends not with punching, but a psychological discussion.  And now it looks like White Vision has the original Vision's memories, which I'm sure is a way to keep him (and Paul Bettany) around in the MCU some more.  I do wonder where he went off to though?  Does he need time to process all of this?  Is he still not emotionally invested in Wanda (yet) and that's why he didn't come back to her?

My understanding of that scene was that he has all of the data an memories but that doesn't mean he suddenly has feelings. That may be what he needs to process and figure out. 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Wanda didn’t intentionally start the Hex over the town, but it’s unambiguous that she continued it even though she knew what it meant.  We see that numerous times.

There certainly are characters who have done terrible stuff in the MCU and faced limited consequences for it (see: Loki), but dramatically that also hinges on where the creators choose to place emphasis.  The show spent far too much time on the victims of the Hex to just dismiss it the way they do at the end.

She didn't really know what it meant though. She only learned when they confronted her that they were force to feel *her pain* and *her grief*, that she had put that all on others rather than dealing with it herself. They had their own pain of being separated from their loved ones, but the overwhelming pain they seemed to have been referring to was Wanda's. 

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12 minutes ago, ViviVision said:

My thoughts exactly...this show and all of MCU is my fun escape from reality. I don’t want to read debates about why they don’t face real world consequences. This show was amazing and I haven’t been excited about a TV show since Lost went off the air.  I can’t wait to see what happens next to my beloved Wanda and Vision.

But then what's the difference between the superheroes and the villains? In fact Wanda is the villain of Westview, not Agatha. I understand that she has suffered enormous grief and loss, and that's basically been her whole life, but she held people hostage for months and used them to do her bidding.

I will say I got quite emotional over this episode, and I do feel for Wanda, but yes...they do hate you, Wanda. She created this mess and then just gets to walk away from it.

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I love how the boys were looking out for each other. And holding hands at the end.

The wicked witch's feet hanging out from the ruins of the house was a cute touch.

How did White Vision get through the hex?

So Dottie turned out not to be anybody.

"Have fun in prison."

"Thanks for choosing me to be your mom" made me weepy eyed.

Not enough Darcy.

What does Victoria's Coronet mean?

I'm hoping split personality Wanda doesn't become a Big Bad.

What happened to White Vision?

 

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5 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But then what's the difference between the superheroes and the villains? In fact Wanda is the villain of Westview, not Agatha. I understand that she has suffered enormous grief and loss, and that's basically been her whole life, but she held people hostage for months and used them to do her bidding.

I will say I got quite emotional over this episode, and I do feel for Wanda, but yes...they do hate you, Wanda. She created this mess and then just gets to walk away from it.

Has it been months? I thought it was only a few weeks, maybe max a month? Not that that erases any of the trauma. 

Difference is that heros try and do save a number of people and aren't only causing harm. They often will choose to sacrifice for the benefit of others. Even in real life people aren't just good or just bad (ex, say a car accident where someone dies, the aggrieved family may think of the other as at fault, their personal "villain", but the other driver was just overworked and tired and made a mistake, not necessarily a bad person). 

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9 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Really complaining that there are no real world consequences to Wanda in a marvel superhero show? What movies in this series have you guys been watching that NOW it’s an issue? ROFL 

I watch soap operas.  Characters never face consequences for their actions.  It doesn't bother me.

8 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Wait at the end why are all the towns people that were fleeing the town when she set them free just standing around again? So they just decided to head back to the center of town and wait for her to walk through? 

I don't think any of them had time to get past the hex.

 

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I'm not personally a fan of the "it's just a fun escape and I don't want to think about it" argument. I mean it's totally valid, please don't mistake me on that, but I do hope people who make the argument mean it as a statement of personal taste and not as a rote dismissal of analytical viewers. There's a lot of us. 

To me this show invited, quite explicitly and repeatedly, an analytical approach. The fact that a lot of the paths were false ones and the resolution quite simple, doesn't change the overall intention to make the show like that. 

And they clearly DID want us to think about the issue of consequences. Half of Agatha's attack strategy was even based on that. My worst fear, that the show would dodge it completely, was thankfully not how it went down. We don't know the plan long term, which is why I only SUSPECT Dr. Strange 2 has to put Wanda in a redeeming position. I can't say I know that for a fact... recognizing that heroism on one front doesn't actually erase misdeeds done on another. It's just a common enough fiction trope to use it to pretend it does. 

Edited by Kromm
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8 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

I watch soap operas.  Characters never face consequences for their actions.  It doesn't bother me.

I don't think any of them had time to get past the hex.

 

She had it open and they were running ... then the next time you see them they are all back in the center of town just hanging out lol it was odd 

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46 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But then what's the difference between the superheroes and the villains? In fact Wanda is the villain of Westview, not Agatha. I understand that she has suffered enormous grief and loss, and that's basically been her whole life, but she held people hostage for months and used them to do her bidding.

I will say I got quite emotional over this episode, and I do feel for Wanda, but yes...they do hate you, Wanda. She created this mess and then just gets to walk away from it.

I have no problem with the residents of WV viewing Wanda as a villain. She spent 10 - 12 days in their heads, controlling them. I also did like Monica being an extraordinary person and showing Wanda grace after also being victimised. 

However Wanda did lay out the difference between her and Agnes, and to an extent Hayward. She didn't want power or weapons or to deliberately hurt anyone. 

Yes she should have pulled the trigger on the Hex much sooner but she did eventually do that, which makes her different than Agnes. 

I don't think everything is going to be hunky dory for her from here on out but I'm also okay that she wasn't tranqued and hauled away. Especially because none one else has been and in certain cases like Bucky at least one family of the victims (Tony) really didn't accept it wasn't his fault and the narrative in Cap told us he was wrong. 

Edited by Featherhat
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Just now, Featherhat said:

However Wanda did lay out the difference between her and Agnes, and to an extent Hayward. She didn't want power or weapons or to deliberately hurt anyone. 

That's entirely true. 

That doesn't mean she's not culpable. It just means there should be some leniency, and the situation is closer to Reckless-disregard. 

The situation at Lagos was similar, but just an additional step down. That was between accident and negligence. 

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13 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But then what's the difference between the superheroes and the villains? In fact Wanda is the villain of Westview, not Agatha. I understand that she has suffered enormous grief and loss, and that's basically been her whole life, but she held people hostage for months and used them to do her bidding.

I will say I got quite emotional over this episode, and I do feel for Wanda, but yes...they do hate you, Wanda. She created this mess and then just gets to walk away from it.

I think that's one of the inherent problems with superheroes. In many cases, they are self-appointed gods who have huge power over humanity, and ultimately, the entire planet. Usually when superhero films try to explore this, the results are a muddle. I think this show managed to toe the line in exploring Wanda's psyche and how she tried to be good but still hurt a lot of people - I think they could have gone further, but my concern is once you start going too far you can never go back (as happened with Wanda in the comics). With that said, I would have been happy with 5-10 more minutes to explore this in the finale as well as adding polish to a few other issues.

 

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1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

But then what's the difference between the superheroes and the villains? In fact Wanda is the villain of Westview, not Agatha. I understand that she has suffered enormous grief and loss, and that's basically been her whole life, but she held people hostage for months and used them to do her bidding.

I will say I got quite emotional over this episode, and I do feel for Wanda, but yes...they do hate you, Wanda. She created this mess and then just gets to walk away from it.

But you can say the same thing about  Tony Stark.   His bombs literally blew up Wanda’s life and his approach has always been to throw money at it.     Even if he was not directly responsible it was still his company.   He is responsible for creating Ultron who killed Pietro.   He was pretty quick to decide Wanda was dangerous and needed to be locked up for the very same thing his company did.   That is three incredible  traumas in Wanda’s life so why does he get a free pass and people want to burn Wanda at the stake like a witch?  
 

if anything I would love to see a (non Agatha) villain come out of Westview that Wanda has to deal with in a later chapter.   An enemy she herself created.  

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11 hours ago, Lebanna said:

That was like a mini-movie! Loved it. Loved that last clip with Wanda living in what looked a little cabin among some happy little trees and some big old mountains, exactly as painted by Bob Ross. While her witch-self eats up knowledge. She’s becoming something new, something stronger. 

Before this my main appreciation of Wanda and Vision was their great taste in cities to hide in (Edinburgh), but I think most people have become really invested in them, as much as we might have been invested in The Cap and Peggy or Tony and Pepper. They are officially an epic star-crossed romance now.

I still don’t buy Ralph Bohner isn’t Peter on some level, though. They can retcon that whenever they like. They really hired Evan Peters just as a joke? Nah, come on. He’s something else. Either that, or it’ll turn out that the Speedy Powers didn’t leave him when Monica broke the spell.

So Agatha-Agnes is left living an ordinary life in Westview? Isn’t that a bit... dangerous? I dread to think what could happen to that town. She’ll be back.

The kids are still out there somewhere, in danger. Somehow, they are part of something bigger. What remains of Vision is out there somewhere, even if he doesn’t have his emotions, that’s solvable because Wanda still contains his Mind stone self somewhere inside herself. There’s still so much hope left for Wanda, even if she doesn’t know it.

Monica is out for space adventures.  S.W.O.R.D might have to wait a little longer for her to be their leader. I’m so looking forward to what happens next. She’s going to be in Captain Marvel 2, right?

We need a series where Darcy and Jimmy fight crime. The Ordinary Avengers?

It's interesting Agatha was able to give Ralph Speed Powers. Why didn't she give herself Speed as well? That would have come in handy lol.

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When Wanda was driving through the town to get to the house Vision got for her, the town looked sad and run down, so I wonder if Wanda's subconscious thought that not only would she finally have the happy life she has never gotten, but she was "fixing" the town and giving everyone the perfect happy sitcom life that she wanted. She was clearly in deep denial, but it did seem like she thought that people were happy in Westview living their sitcom lives instead of drudging through their regular lives, even though they clearly were not. Agnes might have had dark intentions, but she probably did Wanda a favor when she broke the spell over the townsfolk and Wanda was confronted by the fact that they were all terrified and in horrible pain, that really seemed to be what finally got through to her that this was a messed up thing to do and she needed to stop it, even if she would lose her family. For now at least. 

Its an aspect of superhero stories, or genre fiction in general, that I really enjoy. I really like exploring what happens when someone has these amazing powers and abilities or have these completely out there experiences and lives, but also are just people with all of the flaws and issues and heartbreaks that any other person in our world has, and how that affects them. I just think its really interesting to explore. Its hard enough dealing with grief or loneliness or fear, but adding powers into the mix...

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Regarding the Consequence part...I think the issue here is that some people think of prison or even worse when they are talking about "facing consequences". But prison should always be the last resort. And the show actually gave the answer why Wanda doesn't deserve this kind of punishment: Nothing she did was intentional. She didn't realise what she was doing to those people. She didn't really want to hurt anyone. The right "consequence" for her actions would normally by psychological care until she has control over her power. Which is the outcome I wanted for her, someone who could help her. (And a lot of money out of whatever fund Stark build in order to help her victims dealing with what happened to them).

And regarding Agatha: Honestly, Wanda might have released those people earlier if she hadn't interfered whenever Vision tried to talk to her about it. She might not have created the Hex, but she could have helped to end it but didn't for her own gain. That's what makes her a villain.

Thus said...I actually don't approve her punishment. I mean, yeah, there weren't many options, but that one is very gruesome.

 

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1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

But you can say the same thing about  Tony Stark.   His bombs literally blew up Wanda’s life and his approach has always been to throw money at it.     Even if he was not directly responsible it was still his company.   He is at least partly responsible for creating Ultron who killed Pietro.   That two incredibly traumas in Wanda’s life so why does he get a free pass and people want to burn Wanda at the stake like a witch?  

I feel like we are debating the Sokovia Accords all over again lol. And what you say is very true. Tony created his own enemies. He helped create Wanda (to a degree) and Ultron. And well, he's dead, so he didn't exactly get a free pass for everything.

I don't think it's possible to lock Wanda up in jail, or anything like that. That's not really the "consequence" I'm looking for. In any case that would be completely stupid -- anyone who put reins on Wanda's magic or put her in jail is going to come off like a villain. One consequence of Wanda's actions here is that she has to go through losing Vision again, and this time she has to grieve her children -- but these were problems of her own making, just like when Tony created Ultron.

I think it's an interesting issue for superhero films and any kind of medium to explore.

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I get wanting to see Wanda be held accountable for her actions.  She did inadvertently hurt a lot of people, but there was no premeditation.  Wanda didn't plan on hurting the people of Westview and once she fully realized that they were hurting, she began to lift the hex.  Wanda was in pain and all alone.  I do believe the show did a great job of showing us how alone she was last week.  If someone had just treated her with just a bit of kindness, then this may have been avoided.  Monica was the first person since Vision to really talk to her.  

I fail to see how locking Wanda up would solve anything.  Wanda is extremely powerful, but she has no idea how to control her power.  

Also, why should Wanda be locked up while Clint Barton goes free?  Mofo needs to be in prison for what he did between Infinity War and Endgame.  

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This actually does kinda remind me of  the old show Xena The Warrior Princess.  Bad guy (girl)  who hurt alot  of people who  had an Epiphany and spent the rest of her life making up for it but then had to occasionally battle enemies she herself created.  Disney could actually continue Wanda’s journey in that vein and have  a really interesting storyline.   

Edited by Chaos Theory
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54 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Regarding the Consequence part...I think the issue here is that some people think of prison or even worse when they are talking about "facing consequences". But prison should always be the last resort. And the show actually gave the answer why Wanda doesn't deserve this kind of punishment: Nothing she did was intentional. She didn't realise what she was doing to those people. She didn't really want to hurt anyone. The right "consequence" for her actions would normally by psychological care until she has control over her power. Which is the outcome I wanted for her, someone who could help her. (And a lot of money out of whatever fund Stark build in order to help her victims dealing with what happened to them).

I think we've talked about that before. There's a difference between moral consequences and legal ones. You're discussing moral ones. Legally intent DOES matter, don't mistake me, but specific crimes like negligence and reckless disregard wouldn't exist if what you're saying actually was the law. 

They're not the SAME crimes. They're other crimes applicable to a situation where there wasn't intent. 

Edited by Kromm
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I guess I liked that they tied up this story and didn't connect to a movie. Unless you want to see more of Monica's adventures in Captain Marvel 2. 

It makes sense that that the town would hate her. And I don't know how'd they feel with her getting away with no consequences. I mean I know she willingly gave up Vision and the kids. However it looks like the kids are still around and White Vision is too. Speaking of which where did he go?

I know they are probably saving it for the movie but you'd think Dr. Strange would have come since he said in Thor Ragnarok that its jobs to monitor when powerful beings are around. Or can he now sense chaos magic? I guess I'll have to wait for his movie. 

I'm a little upset that we didn't get more of Darcy and Woo. I hope they show up in other movies or shows.

I do really love Wanda new super suit they actually managed to make her outfit look cool. 

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2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I do really love Wanda new super suit they actually managed to make her outfit look cool. 

I know we all want acting Emmys for this show, and will feel cheated if it doesn't get any. 

But I think there will be the Internet version of riots of this show doesn't get a costume design Emmy. Not just for the Scarlet Witch final outfit, but all of those great period clothes. 

Probably set design too, but DEFINITELY costuming. 

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12 hours ago, Kromm said:

Her Vision DID know, so I'm wondering what's up with that.  Was there a reason he didn't tell her? 

From the writer's perspective, they probably didn't tell him because they wanted to leave the drama lingering for the fans to speculate about and anticipate.

My own internal fan-writer tells me that Wanda's Vision didn't say anything because he knew that Ghost Vision is still processing his memories and trying to figure out his own feelings. Presumably he will still realize he loves Wanda and seek her out, but Wanda's Vision didn't want to leave her with too much false hope and give Ghost Vision space.

10 hours ago, Keywestclubkid said:

Wait at the end why are all the towns people that were fleeing the town when she set them free just standing around again? So they just decided to head back to the center of town and wait for her to walk through? 

Wanda opened the barriers, but as we could see this episode and from prior episodes, the center of town was quite a ways away from the barrier. With the short amount of time before Wanda realized she was going to lose her family and the lack of functioning cars, I can't imagine any but the furthest townsfolk were able to leave in time.

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WandaVision and The Good Place. Why couldn't two shows I'm totally gaga over have happier endings? At least The Good Place's ending was bitter sweet. WandaVision's ending is just hurt. I don't wike it!

I know folks have suffered tragedies with grace, but Wanda not crying after her husband and kids disappear? No way she walks away from that so calmly. And Wanda losing everything again is not good for her; I don't care what anyone says.

And where the hell did milk 'n cream Vision fly off to?

Agatha was wrong about Wanda being broken before, but I think she is now, and the post credits scene makes me think so even more.

I really wanted to Wanda to have a happier ending because I think it's the only way she could've left Westview a good person. Now? I don't know.

Ugh. I'm a mess right now.

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There's a whole bunch of videos on YouTube about the "Ship of Theseus" philosophy question. This one is short and is corresponds to the conversation between the two Visions:

 

 

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I know they are probably saving it for the movie but you'd think Dr. Strange would have come since he said in Thor Ragnarok that its jobs to monitor when powerful beings are around. Or can he now sense chaos magic? I guess I'll have to wait for his movie. 

I've seen this mentioned a few times (and would not have been disappointed if he'd shown up). I'm wondering if he was perfectly aware of what was going on in/around Westview, but did his timey wimey probability Seeing thing and saw that he needed to stay out of it in order for whatever else he sees to work out.

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I feel like I’ll need to watch it a second time to watch it without waiting to see if the theories would come true.

I was telling myself yesterday to try and not build this up too high with all the things I *thought* would come to pass because this show is gonna end how they want it to end and not how *I* would want it to end.

I had always thought that Wanda is a tragic character who can’t get the happy ending and in that sense I was right. I knew she would eventually do the right thing and in doing so she would lose her happy ending. Seeing her come to terms with that and essentially have closure with Vision was the exact emotional score I was looking for. With a show as emotional as this one, this was the way to end it. 
 

It may have been a bit of a “safe” ending but this show was the most ambitious thing I’ve seen them do and they knocked it out of the park.
 

I straight up cried the moment Vision said “not for us” and they walked home till after the hex passed them. For a pairing that was just “there” before now I am fully invested in them whether they come back or not. I am also completely 100% on board with Wanda/Scarlett Witch.

saying all that nothing I theorized came to pass, lol. I really thought they’d pull from the comics and Doctor Strange would come in and take Wanda and that’s how she’d feature in DS2. I really thought Fietro was the beginning of the multiverse and honestly that was the most disappointing and I’m not sure I like that they casted Evan Peters as a huge “GOTCHA” moment. Almost seems cruel. 
 

Other than that, this show nailed its ending. Everything I crave in what I watch I got here. This show was damn near perfect and I do feel that it was only get better in retrospect with future mcu projects. I feel like WandaVision is going to be the catalyst for what we see later and we’ll be able to go back and see when everything started. 
 

I am satisfied. 

Edited by moonorchid
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Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Stone so I'm not sure if he can time whimmy any more. But he's also only been back for 3+ weeks. I have no idea what has happened to the Sanctum Sanctorum when he went away. Was Wong able to protect everything? Or was he snapped? It's hard to answer the why didn't doctor Strange come when we don't know what's happening with him yet.

Spider Man 2 was about 7 months from WandaVision and Vision is still thought to be dead during it. So we definitely need more info to understand what is happening in phase 4 and 5.

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1 hour ago, steelyis said:

 

I know folks have suffered tragedies with grace, but Wanda not crying after her husband and kids disappear? No way she walks away from that so calmly.

 

But wasn’t that the whole point of the show? Her Grieving and processing her loss? Of not only vision but basically her whole shitty life.... her understanding that none of that was “real” and letting it go... her we will ALWAYS be family speech to the boys was just that letting them go..so her walking  away from that sad but ok and knowing she will get through it because she got through all the other shit . 

 

just my 2cents 

Edited by Keywestclubkid · Reason: Accidentally wrote waking instead of walking my bad
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Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Stone so I'm not sure if he can time whimmy any more. But he's also only been back for 3+ weeks. I have no idea what has happened to the Sanctum Sanctorum when he went away. Was Wong able to protect everything? Or was he snapped? It's hard to answer the why didn't doctor Strange come when we don't know what's happening with him yet.

Good point. I only saw Endgame once and refuse to watch it again, so a lot of the details are fuzzy. 🙂

Quote

I know folks have suffered tragedies with grace, but Wanda not crying after her husband and kids disappear? No way she walks away from that so calmly.

The sorrow could be weighing her down so much she can't cry. Or she could have been numb in the moment.

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1 hour ago, steelyis said:

 

I know folks have suffered tragedies with grace, but Wanda not crying after her husband and kids disappear? No way she walks away from that so calmly.

I think Wanda didn’t cry because she knows she has the power to bring them back. She just needs to learn how to cast the spell without tangling others in it. 

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I laughed so hard when I realized that the "in the know" fandom got everything wrong. Ad nauseum I had been hearing Doctor Strange was going to show up, Mephisto! Nightmare!  Evan Peters as Quicksilver of course meant that the X-Men had arrived in the MCU.   Paul Bettany trolled everybody with the actor he always wanted to work with ending up being himself,  and the show creators trolled their audience by having Evan Peters play a nobody with a porn name.

So, the way things ended with White Vision means Paul Bettany may still have a job with the MCU?  That's nice,  he is a fantastic actor and so witty in real life.

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3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

so I wonder if Wanda's subconscious thought that not only would she finally have the happy life she has never gotten, but she was "fixing" the town and giving everyone the perfect happy sitcom life that she wanted.

in ep 6, Fietro literally said the townsfolk got better jobs than pre-anomaly.

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This was almost perfect so I'm just going to focus on the couple of things I didn't like. 

I didn't like that we didn't get a Jimmy, Darcy, Monica reunion at the end.

I didn't like that Monica really didn't do much to help/stop Wanda. Given the setup in episode 4 or 5, I expected Monica to play a bigger role

I hated the exchange between Wanda and Monica...they'll never know what you gave up for them...who fucking cares!   She kept them prisoners, she psychologically tortured them, she kept parents from their children and, kept children in comas. 

I love that in the end Wanda did the right thing at great personal cost. That's what heroes do. However, don't act like she also didn't do some major bad things to those people and, they aren't justified hating her.  

Sorry that just bugged me. Otherwise this was a very good finale and, the WandaVision relationship was beautifully tragic

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I also think Wanda wasn't a sobbing mess (unlike myself) at the end because he had reached acceptance. She's still sad but knows she did what was right. I also took that last scene as hopeful. She's doing what Strange did and is learning all she can so she can control her abilities. That's always been Wanda's problem back to Lagos. She's too powerful and there wasn't anyone on the Avengers who could guide her. I hope she finds that in herself and maybe at the Sanctum Sanctorum, but we'll see what DS2 has in store for her. On a petty note, I can't wait for arrogant Dr. Stephen Strange to find out he's not the most powerful as the Sorcerer Supreme. 

I'm also sooo glad Billy and Tommy are out there somewhere. How, why? Don't really care. Just happy.

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The most interesting part of the episode for me when Wanda was saying goodbye to her kids: "Boys, thanks for chosing me to be your mom."

So that says to me that they are beings who had a choice in the matter of becoming her kids. That has a ton of story-potential...

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I thought this was a pretty solid finale. I liked how the vision fight ended because being asked "how can you neutralize Vision if you are Vision" broke white Visions brain. I also liked how there wasn't any big cameo from some other hero saving the day. This was Olsen's and Bettany's show and someone coming in to steal some of that thunder would be annoying.

I didn't really like how Wanda's fight with Agatha ended because it didn't make a ton of sense. Like when did she put up the runes, and was she just faking letting Agnes absorb her power. The call back to the brain zapping from AoU was cool though.

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Bucky was brainwashed — there’s no legal or moral standard where he would be responsible for anything the Winter Soldier did.

Wouldn't he have the responsibility to at least prove he was brainwashed? If someone on trial for murder claims insanity it is up to them to prove it is true. The cops don't just take their word for it and let them go free.

7 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I didn't like the Darkhold reference because they totally changed the look of it. I know, it's a powerful book of dark magic hence it can look like whatever it wants but it has been in two different Marvel shows already (it also appeared in Season 3 of Runaways) and it had a consistent appearance so here it feels like Feige crapping on Marvel Television rather than paying tribute to it.

Well a lot of Marvel television was crap so maybe crapping on it is not such a bad move. I mean the Defenders was as big a disappointment as any tv show I can think of. And I can't even bring myself to watch Inhumans.

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

The situation at Lagos was similar, but just an additional step down. That was between accident and negligence. 

Wanda in Lagos to me seemed like if a hostage in a bank robbery had a gun, and while trying to shoot the robbers ended up shooting and killing a couple of tellers. Seems like that would be a crime too or at least something where you would have some kind of liability.

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2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

If someone on trial for murder claims insanity it is up to them to prove it is true.

Öhm, nope. The burdon of proof is on the state. Innocent until proofen guilty.

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4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

But you can say the same thing about  Tony Stark.   His bombs literally blew up Wanda’s life and his approach has always been to throw money at it.     Even if he was not directly responsible it was still his company.   He is responsible for creating Ultron who killed Pietro.   He was pretty quick to decide Wanda was dangerous and needed to be locked up for the very same thing his company did.   That is three incredible  traumas in Wanda’s life so why does he get a free pass and people want to burn Wanda at the stake like a witch?  
 

if anything I would love to see a (non Agatha) villain come out of Westview that Wanda has to deal with in a later chapter.   An enemy she herself created.  

With Tony, there was a step removed in causing bad things to happen.

He built and sold bombs worldwide that maybe were better, bigger, cheaper or whatever than other companies' bombs. But it was some other government/terrorist or rebel group or whatever who actually deployed them. 

He built robots and AI with good intentions. But it took an independent will in Ultron to pervert his efforts and create a threat.

Though he still is ultimately responsible in a sense for the destruction his bombs have wrought, Sokovia being threatened, the creation of umpteen supervillains, there is the intervening force of other people's decisions that also share some responsibility.

I applaud Marvel for not having Wanda under the influence of a Mephisto or another bad guy. She did everything she did on her own, and kept it going while on some level of denial and some level of awareness of what she was doing. 

The thing I'm saddest about is that the episode is apparently called "Series Finale" rather than "Season Finale." I hope they figure a way to do a Season Two.

 

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5 hours ago, Minneapple said:

she held people hostage for months 

 

4 hours ago, Check Sanity said:

Has it been months? I thought it was only a few weeks, maybe max a month? 

 

1 hour ago, tarotx said:

Doctor Strange doesn't have the Time Stone so I'm not sure if he can time whimmy any more. But he's also only been back for 3+ weeks. 

It's only been a few days, not months or weeks. When Monica reports to SWORD it's three weeks post return. And in that time you also had the battle, then Tony's funeral (which was at least a few days after) and when Woo and Monica meet, his witness only just disappeared (as in, when Wanda created the Hex). It was I think three days after that when she expanded the Hex and maybe one more day after when the finale happened. A week give or take a day at most. People keep acting like this was a long time, but it was just a few days.

4 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Öhm, nope. The burdon of proof is on the state. Innocent until proofen guilty.

Wrong. Insanity is an affirmative defense that a defendant has to prove. Once the prosecution proves you did it, you have to prove that you have a mental disease or defect which prevented you from knowing right from wrong at the time of the crime. Actual prosecutor providing this information.

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13 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Öhm, nope. The burdon of proof is on the state. Innocent until proofen guilty.

It varies, actually. Some jurisdictions consider insanity what is called an "affirmative defense," where the defendant has the burden of showing that he should be exonerated. Others require the state to show guilt and defeat it.

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense

In a majority of states, the burden of proving insanity is placed on the defendant, who must prove insanity by a preponderance of the evidence.[36]

In a minority of states, the burden is placed on the prosecution, who must prove sanity beyond reasonable doubt.[36]

In federal court, and in Arizona, the burden is placed on the defendant, who must prove insanity by clear and convincing evidence.[37] See 18 U.S.C.S. Sec. 17(b); see also A.R.S. Sec. 13-502(C).

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19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I didn't really like how Wanda's fight with Agatha ended because it didn't make a ton of sense. Like when did she put up the runes, and was she just faking letting Agnes absorb her power

Watch the scene again. We literally saw it happen, but the show cleverly masks it. 

Wanda completely misses Agatha several times while shooting her red energy at her. By a lot. 

Agatha doesn't realize that's happening. Wanda is making it look like a miss but is purposefully shooting at the Hex boundaries to create those runes. 

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10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Agatha was a full on Disney villain, which is obviously fitting.

She reminded me of Cruella DeVille from 101 Dalmatians.

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3 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

It's only been a few days, not months or weeks. When Monica reports to SWORD it's three weeks post return. And in that time you also had the battle, then Tony's funeral (which was at least a few days after) and when Woo and Monica meet, his witness only just disappeared (as in, when Wanda created the Hex). It was I think three days after that when she expanded the Hex and maybe one more day after when the finale happened. A week give or take a day at most. People keep acting like this was a long time, but it was just a few days.

I agree that Westview was less than a week.

My breakdown:

It took some time for Jimmy Woo to notice that his witness protection guy had disappeared, to investigate to find out that people had forgotten him, to fly from the Bay Area to NJ, to ask SWORD for a drone and for Monica to drive up to Westview.

Let's call that two days (including all Hex operation before Jimmy noticed anything, although that could severely undercount things). 

It is approximately another day between when Monica gets stuck in the Hex and when she breaks free. We know this because on seeing Monica as Geraldine, Jimmy remarks something like, "That's not the boss lady I met yesterday."  Her being expelled through the Hex takes place at night at the end of Episode 4. 

The debriefing of Monica in Episode 5 happens the next morning. So we are now on day four. The attempt to bomb Wanda and her threat closes out the episode. And all of Episode 6 could be still that same night, up to expanding the Hex.  (although there is an argument for it being a separate day because we have day and night time Halloween scenes inside the Hex. But it seems a fair assumption that time day and night could be concepts Wanda plays with inside.)

Episode 7 is at least Day 5. We see a new morning and Hayward says that  they're going to launch today. In Episode 8, they do in fact launch Vision. And I would say Episode 9 is also the same day.

So I'd say 5-6 days.

But like my old geography teacher used to say, "A minute is a long time when you're sitting on a tack."

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57 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Öhm, nope. The burdon of proof is on the state. Innocent until proofen guilty.

Not if you are arguing the defense of insanity.  The burden of proof is on the defendant to prove that.

The state still has to prove you've committed all the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.  That doesn't change.  But the insanity defense is an "affirmative defense" that the defendant must prove.  The defendant has to prove they are insane rather than the state having to prove they are not.  See 18 USC 17 as an example.

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