S06.E09: There's Something About Harry

[Satchels of gold]

If you haven't read Sonja's blog, please do. It's a case study of a narcissistic personality disorder. She says she is an independent woman who runs her own business . Then goes on to say she and her daughter are very close and that kids need stability. Sonja you are not independent nor are you stable. She really is delusional!

[Mozelle]

I'm rewatching the episode, and now I have more questions. I'll only broach one, though. Were LuAnn and Jacques really together for four years like she said? That would mean they got together in 2009. However, the franchise started in 2008, and in the second season LuAnn and her ex-husband were still married, right? At least on paper, correct?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Mozelle

[imjagain]

While I agree with your definition of a verbal attack, I don't think that all of Ramona's antics have been the result of her going out of her way to be rude and cruel to people. Lately? Absolutely. But, in the earlier seasons? I don't think that is the case.

Let me clarify by saying that prior to this season, I was someone who did not believe this show could exist without Ramona. The most entertaining and laugh out loud moments of earlier seasons really came from her being clueless both to how she came across and how she reacted to certain situations. It didn't hurt that she also had this ability to completely mispronounce words and cliches. And, when called out on those things at the reunions or on social media, she was always a good sport and never let it get to her nor did she get overly defensive about being called a dumbass or delusional. She took it as part and parcel of being on TV.

This past season though is a lot different.

I recently re-watched the episode where Simon shows up to the "girls' night." I don't know if Ramona is so much more over the top now, or what, but it really wasn't as horrible as I remembered it. It was mainly awkward and made me feel embarrassed for her and the other people. But, it certainly wasn't vicious; it was more self centered than anything. It was all "I made the effort because I thought it was going to be a girls' night, why didn't anyone tell me that we could bring our husbands, I have other girlfriends that I was going to hang out with. You know what? Goodbye." Which is what made it so entertaining.In fact, it was always Ramona's self centered behavior that made her perfect fodder for reality television - that and the way she would brush off the snark and criticism from it.

I always thought of Ramona as the "party girl" who married who she thought was "the hottest guy at the party" and had a child. So, she utilized her friends to recapture her party girl lifestyle.

So saying things like "Kaduz" and "mountains out of holemills" and "going down to the social register" were funny and showed how clueless she was. While things like the runway walk, the slurring about shutting Kelly down, and the introduction of turtle time were just plain fun to laugh at.

The things she said to Bethenny on the bridge (which I found inexcusable regardless of how things turned out), were prompted by Ramona feeling she was attacked. And, that was the thing I always noticed with her. When she felt the least bit attacked she would hit back and go for the jugular. So, even if the person said something that wasn't meant to be offensive, but just as a means of a counter argument, she would slay them. I always thought that it was her idea of not being a victim like her mother had been and that she never had the counseling she needed to deal with that.

Even during Jill's last season when Ramona used the word deformed instead of disfigured, I could see Ramona trying to come up with the right word and not being able to do it on camera. It was another kadooz moment but it was horrible because it was hurtful. And, Ramona took her lumps for that.

This season though, her behavior has turned up several notches and gone into purposefully vicious territory. Maybe she has seen that she has been able to get away with inexcusable things for so long, that she decide to ramp it up. Or, maybe she was getting a much better edit in those earlier seasons. But, her behavior this season, while similar, is much more calculated than in seasons past.

All of this is to say that I don't think that Ramona has always gone out of her way to be rude or hurtful. I think she was someone who reacted in the moment and dealt with the backlash when it came.

But, this year, she has really gone out of her way to cause harm with her behavior and words.I don't know if she is going through a combination of menopause and dealing with a cheating spouse, or if she simply thinks that she has to turn it up to keep her spot. Or, maybe she, as I have always suspected, has some form of Aspergers that was never diagnosed and without boundaries we are seeing it manifest in ways that the camera can't hide anymore.

What I do know is that I am not sure the show would be the same without her. I love Heather and Carole. And Luann has definitely grown on me now that her role has been limited and she can be the Greek Chorus. But, Ramona's crazy is kind of an institution for me at this point.

I would definitely prefer that she not throw things or actively go after people without provocation. And if she could do that, I would welcome her back. But, her reactions to people as they were in the earlier seasons were pretty much the only thing that kept me interested enough to tune in.

As much as I disliked Jill and am glad that she is gone, the one thing I appreciated about her is the thing that I appreciate about Ramona. Neither one of them are able to hide who they really are. It's the same thing I liked about Bethenny when she was on the show. Jill wasn't able to take the backlash and in her rush to try to correct things, she would make it worse. Bethenny and Ramona would defend themselves to a point and then let it go.

Plus, I really want to see the fall out from Ramona's marriage. I'm going to hell I know that. But, Ramona has always been a case study for me. I find her behavior, attitudes, and reactions to be alternately entertaining and just plain fascinating.

MatildaMoody thanks, I do enjoy your posts.

I do agree with a lot of this.

As a confirmed Ramona dis liker, this gives me a lot to think about. ( I don't say hate because that a lot for reality hos.).

Edited July 17, 2014 by imjagain

[ginger90]

I think Ramona likes to strike before she is struck. I am really surprised none of the women have really shot back. She always look nervous to me.

[zoeysmom]

Ratings for this week's episode.  http://bravoratings.com/2014/03/12/real-housewives-of-new-york-city-season-6-ratings/  Down again.  S

[archer1267]

Finally watched the episode. Man, is Sonja a piece of work. Each season I just like her less and less. Just a couple of weeks ago, in Montana, she was brushing off LuAnn as someone she knew socially, more of an acquaintance than an actual FRIEND, and making it clear that LuAnn's friendship didn't mean all that much to her (and saying in her blog, with unnecessary cruelty, that LuAnn has been "needy" since her divorce). And then SHE'S pissed that LuAnn didn't come running to her with news of her breakup?

 

I thought that Sonja was too good for Harry but maybe they're perfect for each other - two people who are skilled at telling people what they want to hear, and who think you actually adopt a pet at someplace called The Dog Store. That poor pup.

[beesknees]

Sonja screwed that fake pirate right after LuAnn did (they shared) so now is Sonja gonna be all butt-hurt (see what I did there?) now that they're sharing Harry?  Sonja should have bought Harry a leash at that fancy dog store.

[breezy424]

Since some here are posting about seasons past and given that this season's ratings have gone further down hill, what do you all think happened to this franchise? 

 

This was my favorite housewife franchise the first three seasons.  Kelly was wacko and I don't miss her but do you think canning her plus Jill and Alex was too much at one time?  Plus Bethenny leaving for her own show?  For me, I think why I liked the show was because of the NY lifestyle; fashion week and going to the Hamptons (remember some of the extravagant parties they went to?) to name a few,   It seems like that the 'drama' has taken over the lifestyle and it's become boring.  I do like the addition of Carole and Heather but it's not enough.  I want to see more of the parties like they had on the last episode.  What do you all think?

Edited July 17, 2014 by breezy424

[outtosee]

"We have to get another kid or something." Well, it's funny you say that, Ramona...

 

Is Mario's girlfriend really pregnant though?

[Persnickety1]

Since some here are posting about seasons past and given that this season's ratings have gone further down hill, what do you all think happened to this franchise? 

 

This was my favorite housewife franchise the first three seasons.  Kelly was wacko and I don't miss her but do you think canning her plus Jill and Alex was too much at one time?  Plus Bethenny leaving for her own show?  For me, I think why I liked the show was because of the NY lifestyle; fashion week and going to the Hamptons (remember some of the extravagant parties they went to?) to name a few,   It seems like that the 'drama' has taken over the lifestyle and it's become boring.  I do like the addition of Carole and Heather but it's not enough.  I want to see more of the parties like they had on the last episode.  What do you all think?

 

Well, I just read on the RHONJ thread that ratings took a significant drop with the season premiere, down by either 1/3 or 1/4, and NJ did a massive cast overhaul as well.

 

Maybe such large cast retooling just doesn't work.  We're all different strokes for different folks.  I'm sure everyone has their own individual housewife whom they enjoy watching, whether it to be on snark on her or someone they find qualities they can relate to, on these shows.  Maybe the viewers even enjoy whatever bond has developed between certain cast members.  Then, BAM, Bravo rips the rug out from the under the franchise with a huge cast overhaul and it backfires, driving away more people than it attracts?

 

I believe I've read in several places that the ratings for this franchise never quite climbed back up once Bravo got rid of half of the original cast.  Maybe people avoid watching because they feel there's no point in becoming invested in a show where half the cast can be gone with a twinkle of Andy's wonky eye?

 

I dunno.  I really used to enjoy this franchise but much more so during the first few seasons when it was the original cast.  

 

My personal interest starting waning when they brought on Cindy Barshop, who could not have made me more comatose had she been a registered anesthesiologist.  I think enduring her season was like Novocain to my brain and it never fully recovered.  

Edited July 17, 2014 by Persnickety1

[ScoobieDoobs]

Ratings for this week's episode.  Down again.

 

 

Yup, I predicted that at the beginning of this thread.  This ep had such a boring vibe.  I had to struggle to maintain even a teeny bit of interest.  I mean the Harry/Sonja/Lu triangle just seems like such a desperate producer attempt to manufacture something -- anything.  Hate to say it, but I didn't even get that Carole was kidding around with her party demands until I read the comments here.  She was just so dry, I thought she was serious -- but honestly I didn't care.  I guess she was also poking at Sonja & Ramona & their ridiculousness.  Whatever.  It was too subtle, so I didn't get it.  Maybe that's why Carole is wrong for this show.  She's too subtle.  Sure, she's probably great in life, but for a reality show?  Eh, kinda dull.

 

I know others can discuss Josh & Kristen till the cows come home (do cows ever come home?), but I just don't care about these 2.  And I NEVER will.  Their therapy session just confirmed what I've always thought about them.  They deserve each other.  If she wants to be with a man who treats her like she's a moron, that's her choice.  What's she want from me?  And Josh is an asshole & a dickhead & I'll go out of my way to NOT ever buy his crap drink cuz of what I've seen of him.  Great marketing there, Joshie poo!!

 

This show in trouble.  What can they do?  A complete recast?  Just keep the Moaner & maybe Sonja?  Would that really help?  Sonja's storyline is stale as fuck.  If the producers are so desperate they gotta fake the shit with Harry, then she needs to go badly.  And do they really wanna keep the Moaner?  I'm so freakin' tired of watching her.  Well, Veevs & Lu are certainly goners.  So is Kristen.  Er, Carole's attitude on the show lately speaks volumes.  She's acting like she knows this is it for her on the show.  Would Heather survive?  Nah, why bother to keep her?  She's nice enough, but mostly a snooze.

 

I'm not looking forward to next week.  Yeah, Andy Cohen says it's gonna be hilarious.  Or did he say it'll be a lot of drama?  Don't remember.  But he also thought George molesting women was hilarious.  An amputee taking off her prosthetic leg & throwing it across a crowded room in one of the fanciest restaurants in the city doesn't sound hilarious to me.  It sounds like the unbalanced act of someone who is deeply disturbed & desperately needs serious psychiatric help.  What's funny about this?  It sounds nauseating.  That reminds me.  I better not eat before I watch next week.

 

In other threads I've blamed Veevs for the shitty ratings.  And she & her father are a big reason the ratings took such a nosedive & haven't gone up much.  But she's mostly off the show now, so there's gotta be other reasons why the show is tanking so badly.  Is it this mostly lackluster, kinda dull cast?  Dull trips?  Berkshires & Montana?  Sorry, nice places, but yawneroo.  I think they shoulda followed the Moaner to Molly Sims' party in the Hamptons.  Now that mighta been fun.  Maybe they coulda even caught Mario with his skank.  Woot.  Woot.  Now we're talkin'!

[ScoobieDoobs]

Interesting analysis from Alex this week & she interviews Jillzy too-

 

[poppygibson]

Is Mario's girlfriend really pregnant though?

Word on the street is that she was pregnant and Mario graciously sprung for an abortion.

[ScoobieDoobs]

So Carole mentions on her Bravo blog that she pronounces entrepreneur -- entre-pre-noor.  I do too.  But everyone else pronounces it entre-pre-new-er (like manure)  How do you pronounce it?

[Pollock]

So Carole mentions on her Bravo blog that she pronounces entrepreneur -- entre-pre-noor.  I do too.  But everyone else pronounces it entre-pre-new-er (like manure)  How do you pronounce it?

Hello, 

The french and may I add conceitedly!, correct pronounciation as it is a french word, you can hear it here :

http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=entrepreneur&submit=Submit

but it's a sound you don't have in english language as far as I know (but I don't know all of your words !).

 

It's like œuf (egg), heure (hour) for us but the speaker from the link specify that in american it's "entre-pre-noor". So I believe you and incidentally Carole are right !

[poppygibson]

Ahn treh preh nuh. It doesn't rhyme with 'manure'. That's an American mispronunciation.

[Lizzing]

Only if you are George Costanza trying to make "manure" sound cool, does entrepreneur rhyme with horse shit.  But more to the point, rather than basic pronunciation, a real entrepreneur would want his/her family on board, in the loop, and ready to help. Jon does that for Heather.  Josh won't let Kristen in on his biz...as shady as I think it is.  In all seriousness, I think he's basically reselling knock offs of Herbalife's LiftOff tabs in liquid form in a Ponzi like scheme.  She should cut & run.

[LotusFlower]

I just saw a clip of next week's finale, and it shows a bit more of the leg-furling incident. It looks truly horrendous. Aviva is fighting with Heather, and she does indeed loosen the leg under the table as she's yelling "the only thing that is artificial about me (dramatic pause) is THIS! Her voice escalates and she violently and scarily smashes the thing on the table and then throws it across the room. Kelly "Al Sharpton" Bensimon on Scary Island has nothing on Aviva. This woman is truly certifiable. Forget asthma. This is her true malady. Whatever it is.

[ScoobieDoobs]

OK, if this is just some ridiculous act or her desperate attempt to stay on the show, doesn't she care -- at the very least -- this will certainly embarrass her children?  Guess not.  The Moaner never cared about embarrassing Avery, right?  But Moaner never acted liked this much of a maniac.  I just don't get how she can go out in public after acting like such a lunatic.  I know, I know, Kelly managed to, but that woman is in some perpetual state of delusion -- much like Sonja -- and maybe Veevs too.  I was thinkin', doesn't Veevs have any friends -- at all?  Well, after seeing how she's behaved on the show for 2 seasons, I'd assume not.  She certainly couldn't hold any kind of job, acting this way.  Well, the good news is she's certainly lost her job with Bravo & I don't ever have to see or hear her or that awful father ever again.  YAY!

[Talented Tenth]

Since some here are posting about seasons past and given that this season's ratings have gone further down hill, what do you all think happened to this franchise? 

 

This was my favorite housewife franchise the first three seasons.  Kelly was wacko and I don't miss her but do you think canning her plus Jill and Alex was too much at one time?  Plus Bethenny leaving for her own show?  For me, I think why I liked the show was because of the NY lifestyle; fashion week and going to the Hamptons (remember some of the extravagant parties they went to?) to name a few,   It seems like that the 'drama' has taken over the lifestyle and it's become boring.  I do like the addition of Carole and Heather but it's not enough.  I want to see more of the parties like they had on the last episode.  What do you all think?

To save the show, my recommendation would be bringing back Jill and Bethenny.  Avivia can be dumped and Kristen can be made into a friend.  I'm sure the ratings would go up.  I said on TWOP that Andy/Bravo must have mistakenly thought that the Real Housewives franchises were bigger than the stars and would be successful no matter who was cast, but just like any other television shows the stars make the show.  Jill was the tie that bound New York together.  

[ScoobieDoobs]

Ahn treh preh nuh. It doesn't rhyme with 'manure'. That's an American mispronunciation.

 

 

I pronounce it exactly this way -- except I say the r at the end.

[Mozelle]

Well, I just read on the RHONJ thread that ratings took a significant drop with the season premiere, down by either 1/3 or 1/4, and NJ did a massive cast overhaul as well.

 

Maybe such large cast retooling just doesn't work.  We're all different strokes for different folks.  I'm sure everyone has their own individual housewife whom they enjoy watching, whether it to be on snark on her or someone they find qualities they can relate to, on these shows.  Maybe the viewers even enjoy whatever bond has developed between certain cast members.  Then, BAM, Bravo rips the rug out from the under the franchise with a huge cast overhaul and it backfires, driving away more people than it attracts?

 

I believe I've read in several places that the ratings for this franchise never quite climbed back up once Bravo got rid of half of the original cast.  Maybe people avoid watching because they feel there's no point in becoming invested in a show where half the cast can be gone with a twinkle of Andy's wonky eye?

 

I dunno.  I really used to enjoy this franchise but much more so during the first few seasons when it was the original cast.  

 

My personal interest starting waning when they brought on Cindy Barshop, who could not have made me more comatose had she been a registered anesthesiologist.  I think enduring her season was like Novocain to my brain and it never fully recovered.  

 

Ultimately, this is what I believe. I think that Bravo needs to get out of the business of trying to listen to fans or viewers or whatever one wants to call oneself. Every season there's a suggestion of "Oh, they just need to recast the lot of them!" and Bravo listens in some capacity then you get the eventual complaint of "Oh, they should have never gotten rid of so-and-so." I firmly believe in "Don't give the people what they want" in cases of television because the people are just that--people--and their whims change on a dime. 

 

That said, I'm not at all lamenting the fact that Jill, Kelly, and Alex are gone. I think Jill bit the bullet because she was too busy being meddlesome behind the scenes; Kelly tried to call out Andy on air about going to Scary Island; and Alex had that albatross husband of hers, Simon, angling to hold an apple in the opening credits.

 

I do like this cast more. Aviva works my nerves so much now that I just skipped her scenes in this week's episode. However, I think that there's just enough tension between Sonja and LuAnn (even if LuAnn is here in a smaller capacity) and LuAnn and Ramona that doesn't make the show so stale. The friendship between Heather and Carole works for me. As does the over all chemistry among all of them.

 

I think what's plaguing the show in terms of ratings is that, whether some want to admit it or not, there's a large segment of the viewership that love the ratchet behavior on some of the other franchises and expect for it to happen here. When it doesn't happen, they get bored.

 

ETA this part from Carole's blog:

 

The Devil Wore Prada

Yes, I’m the devil in disguise. You got me. The devil is always the one trying to lighten the mood. The one who shows up in a bear costume, the one who dresses up like a mermaid to raise money for hurricane victims, the one who hooks up with a girlfriend's ex….oops wait. That wasn’t me, that was Sonja. My bad. I'm the devil.

 

 

Ha! Touché!

 

Also, her toast to all the women (minus Aviva, naturally) was pretty nice.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Mozelle

[MMLEsq]

If you haven't read Sonja's blog, please do. It's a case study of a narcissistic personality disorder. She says she is an independent woman who runs her own business . Then goes on to say she and her daughter are very close and that kids need stability. Sonja you are not independent nor are you stable. She really is delusional!

Speaking of delusional....   this is from Sonja's blog.  Apologies in advance to anyone that believes in tarot card readers, psychics, astrologers, healers and/or Feng Shui, but she just comes off crazy (IMO). 

 

I love having my tarot cards read and get them done often because I find them inspirational. Very rarely do I get a reading where someone says there's a devil in my group. Thomas John really had me going! I had to go through every brunette in the group, and luckily he said it wasn't Carole. We have yet to find out who the brunette is. So many brunettes. So many bleached blondes. So many devils. So little time to analyze. I better call Roberta Tavassoli, one of my other psychics, and ask her! Oh, and I have been enjoying Mary Ellen Armstrong readings also. So many great Psychics so little time. And then there are astrologers. . .ah, recreation. I haven't even touched the iceberg of healers and Feng Sui. No less then 35 on Team Sonja!

I would like to believe (would like to, but don't really) that she no longer has any money problems, since there are "no less than 35 (!!!) on Team Sonja," because I can think of about a million things that her money would be better spent on.

Edited July 17, 2014 by MMLEsq

[Satchels of gold]

Interesting analysis from Alex this week & she interviews Jillzy too-

 

Thanks for posting this. It pains me to say this but Jill looked great and conducted herself very well during the interview. Of course she did have to say she liked wife swap better than RHoNy because it was all about her. Oh Jill, she can't help herself.

On another note I enjoy that Alex doesn't seem bitter and angry over being fired. Although she throws out a spoiler here and there she seems engaged and interested in the series.

[parisprincess]

I'm rewatching the episode, and now I have more questions. I'll only broach one, though. were LuAnn and Jacques really together for four years like she said? That would mean they got together in 2009. However, the franchise started in 2008, and in the second season LuAnn and her ex-husband were still married, right? At least on paper, correct?

 

I thought she said they'd been together for two years, which sounds about right.

 

eta: My bad. I thought she said two years on the show, but I just read her blog and she did say four years.

Edited July 17, 2014 by parisprincess

[ottergirl]

Someone on the Vulture thread posted this link.... it actually shows the leg throwing incident (at least part of it).  As one of those who called early on that it was Aviva throwing her own leg, yes, it was!

 

http://realitytvgifs.tumblr.com/post/92003015922/aviva-drescher-rips-off-her-leg-and-throws-it-at

 

I showed this clip to my husband this morning and he laughed and laughed.  I said the funny thing here is that there's a new parody show on Hulu about the Housewives, but how in the world can you parody this show?  It parodies itself!  At least Carole and Heather are in on the joke; that scene with Carole making insane demands for her party, bringing a manicurist to the event, was ALL parody.  They were making fun of Sonja in a way so subtle that Sonja herself would never get it.  It was awesome.

 

It does make me sad that NYC is doing so poorly and is likely to be retooled, because it has my favorite cast members in Carole and Heather (and even the new, re-invented LuAnn, who I have NEVER liked before, but now I do!).  I think the reason NYC isn't working is that the cast dynamic is off.  Sonja and Ramona are doing one kind of show (completely made up shenanigans; the Harry facade is a joke), and Heather and Carole are doing another one (real women in the real world).  Aviva went from fun-insane last season to just useless this season, and George almost derailed the whole thing.  Kristen is okay, but doesn't bring anything to the party, so to speak.  Personally, I wish they would keep Heather and Carole (and maybe LuAnn) and go full-on with THAT show, but I can't see Bravo doing it.  If they retool around Ramona again, I don't know if I'll watch.  The powers that be think she is central to the NYC dynamic - but why is NYC, the most dynamic city in the country, the least dynamic franchise?  In my opinion, it's because Ramona is limiting them.  She is insane and was fun enough for a while, but her story and her world has grown stale, and not worthy of the great city I love.  (I lived there for a while in my 20s, and still have a soft spot for it.)

[MatildaMoody]

 

Jill was the tie that bound New York together.

I disagree. The ratings started dropping in Jill's last season. The criticism was that the show had gotten too dark and the constant division into the teams was too boring. And, I think that Jill was the reason for that.

 

I think that when that decline happened the fans the show lost didn't bother to tune in the next season when the show had been recast. Aviva's crazy garnered enough interest for some to check it out mid season, but then they took more than a year to bring it back this season and I think people just forgot about it. 

And then there was the disgusting pervert that is George. 

 

All in all, I don't think that it was a single cast member or even a couple of cast members that kept people tuning in. I think it was a lot of things piling up that caused the ratings to sink. But, the ratings started slipping prior to Jill getting the ax and I think she was a large part of why the decline started happening.

[Mozelle]

Someone on the Vulture thread posted this link.... it actually shows the leg throwing incident (at least part of it).  As one of those who called early on that it was Aviva throwing her own leg, yes, it was!

 

http://realitytvgifs.tumblr.com/post/92003015922/aviva-drescher-rips-off-her-leg-and-throws-it-at

 

I'm still skeptical. There's work to getting a prosthesis on and secure, so how could Aviva, in the heat of a moment (meaning in a matter of seconds), pull off the leg she's wearing? I have a feeling that, with the help of production, she had one of her legs at the ready, so to speak, for her moment of crazy-making. After all, that clip shows her maneuvering beneath the dinner table, a table with a long cloth covering the sides.

 

I thought she said they'd been together for two years, which sounds about right.

 

In her talking head she said something about how they were together for over four years. That's just so odd to me, but maybe that's exactly what the women were getting at during the one reunion when they commented that what she portrayed on the show wasn't how she is when the cameras aren't rolling (the "Countess, dahling" airs). There was also a hint about how LuAnn was doing her own dirt while married.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Mozelle

[Duke2801]

To save the show, my recommendation would be bringing back Jill and Bethenny.  Avivia can be dumped and Kristen can be made into a friend.  I'm sure the ratings would go up.  I said on TWOP that Andy/Bravo must have mistakenly thought that the Real Housewives franchises were bigger than the stars and would be successful no matter who was cast, but just like any other television shows the stars make the show.  Jill was the tie that bound New York together.  

 

As much as I dislike Jill and Bethenny, I think you might be onto something.  Although many of us don't like her, Bethenny does have a fan base, and it's likely they'd all be tuning in to see her.  

 

And Jill?  I think people would be tuning in for the train wreck factor!

 

I'm rewatching the episode, and now I have more questions. I'll only broach one, though. Were LuAnn and Jacques really together for four years like she said? That would mean they got together in 2009. However, the franchise started in 2008, and in the second season LuAnn and her ex-husband were still married, right? At least on paper, correct?

 

 

Hmmmm good question.  According to Wikepedia, Luanne and the Count divorced in 2009.  So while whatever season (2 or 3) was being broadcast in 2009 showed them still together, in "real time" they were actually divorced.... and separated for who knows how long before that.  So, I assume she and J started dating very quickly after her divorce--if not before!

Edited July 17, 2014 by Duke2801

[ghoulina]

And c'mon, LuAnn couldn't have been all that broken up about her relationship ending, given how she was ready to go get her some (more) Harry.

 

Actually, from my experience, a lot of people deal with a breakup like that. 

 

I must missed the scene with Kristin and Josh with the counselor.  I saw the rerun.  Say I love you and buy me a new purse.  I'll say I love you and buy you ice cream.  He ain't no Juicy Joe - that we know of.

 

Josh's mantra - "Defeated wife, Happy life" ?

[Satchels of gold]

Oh Lord that clip of Aviva throwing her leg........what in the hell? I'm speechless. I am now very curious how she gets the leg back and leaves the restaurant.

[ghoulina]

I disagree. The ratings started dropping in Jill's last season. The criticism was that the show had gotten too dark and the constant division into the teams was too boring. And, I think that Jill was the reason for that.

 

I think that "darkness", in general, has hurt all franchises of this show. I've been watching since OC's first days. Back then the show was casting people who actually had some real-life connection, and showcasing mostly the women with their families and at their jobs. It was light-hearted and interesting. There was definitely still drama - we had Lauri's son getting in trouble with the law and Slade chasing Jo with his Hummer. But things didn't feel forced like they do now. I realize that reality tv has never been 100% "real", and I'm okay with that. But as it currently stand, these shows are manufacturing the hell out of things - every single week there's some pretense for bringing the girls together, and fights are the central theme. I think there may be some who prefer it this way, but I'd wager there are a great many who miss the old days. So I don't know that it really has to do with specific cast members, but the general tone of the show. 

[archer1267]

On another note I enjoy that Alex doesn't seem bitter and angry over being fired.

 

 

I saw a photo of Alex and Simon at a party that Jill threw recently and it made me wonder how much of their fights were "for show," or if they've all mellowed out with time. I've been re-watching Season 4 on Hulu and while I didn't sympathize with Jill or LuAnn (and even Sonja, to a small degree) that season, I could totally get why they were done with Alex and her need to endlessly needle, lecture, confront, what have you. When Jill showed up at Marriage Equality and said to her, "My God, can't you just leave me alone?" I felt her. When she got riled up, Alex was like a dog with a bone.

 

Thanks for posting that gif clip from Vulture, ottergirl! I thought I'd find the leg scene hysterical but I actually find it pretty disturbing. I think Aviva has some serious anger issues and they came out in that scene. An Aviva supporter could argue that she was pushed to the brink by the others, but I don't think that's it at all. I think she can be personable and charming when she wants to be, but that anger is never too far from the surface. She tried to use her vile father to make herself "interesting," and now she's resorting to the shock value of removing her leg. Considering that she's been AWOL for a good chunk of the season, it screams desperation and over-the-top to me. She could have made her point by standing up and knocking on her leg - that hollow sound would have surely convinced everyone (not that I've ever heard anyone doubt that Aviva has a prosthesis).

[tulip555]

I do find Ramona interesting and would have no idea what she would be like off camera.  She always seems as if she is thinking ahead instead of staying in the moment.  I agree-clueless is an apt description.  I find very little of interest in Carole or Heather.  They always seem to be promoting.  Nice party.  Carole seemed a little bitchy when she was delivered the news-no snake charmer.  I was at a loss why they couldn't just get some bottled water from the restaurant.   With Heather, Carole, assistants and a party planner it seemed like something that could be easily remedied.

I think Heather and Carol are two of the least interesting women on any of the shows....coast to coast

[quaintirene]

To save the show, my recommendation would be bringing back Jill and Bethenny.  Avivia can be dumped and Kristen can be made into a friend.  I'm sure the ratings would go up.  I said on TWOP that Andy/Bravo must have mistakenly thought that the Real Housewives franchises were bigger than the stars and would be successful no matter who was cast, but just like any other television shows the stars make the show.  Jill was the tie that bound New York together.  

I would like to see those two back.  But I would respectfully disagree about Jill being the show.  I thought Jill and Bethanny together were the show.  They both brought so much to that table.  When Jill engineered the end of their friendship I think she sank the show at the same time.  No one else is strong enough--and in the case of Bethanny funny enough--to make the show interesting beyond the fake drama and cat fights.

[TheFinalRose]

I tune into the HoWives shows because I love seeing people's real lives, their homes and their family relationships. I don't want to see average, I want to be entertained by peeking inside their homes, or laugh at their dysfunctional family relationships, So that's how I judge the cast members. So in that case, I can't stand Jill. I was so glad she was dumped. I never found her funny, or entertaining, nor was anything about her life aspirational to me. She was just a sales woman in a store who married an older richer man who was not interesting or attractive. Her apartment--blah. Her dog, not so cute (and I am a dog person through and through). I didn't find her fabulous crowd very fabulous--she seemed very downmarket as far as the upper east side society ladies go. I would never have watched this show for just Jill and Bawby, so bringing her back would probably lose me.

 

 I would rather see Alex and Simon come back because their attempts to climb up the social ladder without having money, looks or some kind of talent were laugable. It was obvious to everyone except them that they would never have what it takes to impress the social group they wanted to be part of. So I always enjoyed their scenes for their high comic value. 

 

Bethheny was okay, I remembered her from The Apprentice but she again didn't have anything aspirational in her life either.  Now LuAnne seemed to be more of the type of upper east side/Hamptons scene that I found interesting. I think Ramona is used up and if you notice she doesn't have any fabulous friends or connections of her own, and if she does she doesn't include them on the show. Carole is a great addition in so far as the type of lifestyle that someone in Manhattan would lead but do we really see much of her real life? I liked seeing the scene with her editor, (even if it was faked), or scenes in her apartment, which is so different from how most of us live. 

 

I find Kristin interesting because she represents a certain demographic of young wife with babies....that's a difficult stage of life and I like seeing how someone manages that in NYC.  Aviva is just the worst....an ugly human all around and of course her father is rehensible (tm Simon of the OC). As for Heather, she never films inside of her house (vacation house doesn't count) so I feel as if she's not going all in on this show either. She doesn't have anything aspirational in my mind either, so she can go.  As for Sonja, I don't find her antics entertaining. Can't believe she is a mother of a teenage daughter and she presents herself like that. Plus every scene with Sonja seems faked. 

 

If I were recasting I would keep Carole and LuAnne and dump the rest and bring back Alex and Simon. Find someone who works in the glamour fields of NYC: publishing or theater or fashion or finance that has a lot of money and is bored with their lives. Andy definitely went way off course with this show when there is so much rich potential in NYC.

[motorcitymom65]

The ratings did start to dip in S4 and it had gotten dark, but folks could also argue that Beth leaving changed the dynamic that season. 

 

The real drop-off, the scary ratings slide started last season, the first without Jill. It is hard to pin-point what that was all about, but if I were Jill I would be licking my lips. I never really cared for her one way or the other. She served her purpose on the show, but she could also be off-putting. The one thing I am sure of is that if we all heard tomorrow that she would be making an appearance at the Season Finale where Aviva throws her leg, is that the ratings would increase dramatically at this idea. I don't care what people thought of her, even folks that haven't watched all season would tune in to see what happened with Jill on the show. I do think she is one thing that could increase the ratings, no matter how much she pissed Andy, production, or the fans off.  

[jaync]

Bravo showed the clip of Aviva throwing her leg in a commercial last night. Why would they "spoil" the scene like that a few days before it airs?

 

So, besides her other hideous personality traits, Aviva also apparently has a violent streak (that prosthesis ain't exactly a plastic cup). Lovely.

[Mozelle]

The ratings did start to dip in S4 and it had gotten dark, but folks could also argue that Beth leaving changed the dynamic that season. 

 

The real drop-off, the scary ratings slide started last season, the first without Jill. It is hard to pin-point what that was all about, but if I were Jill I would be licking my lips. I never really cared for her one way or the other. She served her purpose on the show, but she could also be off-putting. The one thing I am sure of is that if we all heard tomorrow that she would be making an appearance at the Season Finale where Aviva throws her leg, is that the ratings would increase dramatically at this idea. I don't care what people thought of her, even folks that haven't watched all season would tune in to see what happened with Jill on the show. I do think she is one thing that could increase the ratings, no matter how much she pissed Andy, production, or the fans off.  

 

I don't agree with this. The editors created a clip of "This season..." that aired before the season began. A lot of online chatter I heard was all about "What in the hell? Did Aviva take off her leg?" and other similar questions. I don't think if TPTB said last week or this week that Jill would be on the season finale that more people would watch for her. There are people who have been anticipating Aviva's crazy antic since this season began airing, and I suspect that that lunacy will create a spike in the ratings next week. The idea or rumor that "Hey, Jill's gonna be on!" wouldn't increase the ratings, I don't think. 

[Lakewood27]

When Jill engineered the end of their friendship I think she sank the show at the same time.

 

Jill should not be rewarded for her behaviour by being allowed back on the show. Engineering the fight with Bethenny and neglecting to tell her, was not cute. And then her behind-the-scenes harrassment of the RHoNY production team was just OTT. I don't want her on my TV screen in any capacity. If she ends up destroying the show due to her own hubris, so be it.

[motorcitymom65]

I don't agree with this. The editors created a clip of "This season..." that aired before the season began. A lot of online chatter I heard was all about "What in the hell? Did Aviva take off her leg?" and other similar questions. I don't think if TPTB said last week or this week that Jill would be on the season finale that more people would watch for her. There are people who have been anticipating Aviva's crazy antic since this season began airing, and I suspect that that lunacy will create a spike in the ratings next week. The idea or rumor that "Hey, Jill's gonna be on!" wouldn't increase the ratings, I don't think. 

I picked next weeks episode, but pick anyone you want. If at any time during the season they had showed us a preview of Jill showing up at the Hampton's, or in Montana, or at Carole's party, folks would have tuned in to watch. Even if she had been the same terrible person she always was, folks would want to see it. A clip of her listening to George talking about sex? Her comments when Ramona threw a glass at Kristen? What she would say about Aviva and her asthma? I believe that many people would deny they would watch it, both before and after they did, but I have little doubt ratings would increase if she was back on. 

[Mozelle]

Hmmmm good question.  According to Wikepedia, Luanne and the Count divorced in 2009.  So while whatever season (2 or 3) was being broadcast in 2009 showed them still together, in "real time" they were actually divorced.... and separated for who knows how long before that.  So, I assume she and J started dating very quickly after her divorce--if not before!

 

Oh, OK. That makes sense. There was probably some overlap in the sense that LuAnn and Alex were in the middle of the divorce, but the paperwork wasn't yet final.

 

I picked next weeks episode, but pick anyone you want. If at any time during the season they had showed us a preview of Jill showing up at the Hampton's, or in Montana, or at Carole's party, folks would have tuned in to watch. Even if she had been the same terrible person she always was, folks would want to see it. A clip of her listening to George talking about sex? Her comments when Ramona threw a glass at Kristen? What she would say about Aviva and her asthma? I believe that many people would deny they would watch it, both before and after they did, but I have little doubt ratings would increase if she was back on.

 

 

I still don't agree. I've actually been enjoying this season (and the other seasons) without Jill. I'm not one who tunes in just to see brawls and the like. I gave up on RHONJ a few episodes into the season that had the brawl at the christening. I tuned into RHOBH sporadically this season because of Brandi's presence (and by sporadically, I just followed online discussion and then sought out clips here and there provided on the Bravo website). That kind of fuckery (Jill's brand, Brandi's brand, Aviva's brand, the pajama party brawl brand on RHATL) just doesn't appeal to me; it annoys me, really.

 

Of course, there are more viewers than not who love that stuff, hence the spike in ratings, but if I'd heard that Jill was back in any sort of capacity, I'd not watch her. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by Mozelle

[izabella]

All in all, I don't think that it was a single cast member or even a couple of cast members that kept people tuning in. I think it was a lot of things piling up that caused the ratings to sink. But, the ratings started slipping prior to Jill getting the ax and I think she was a large part of why the decline started happening.

 

I think what happens is the ratings start slipping, and the show starts to get boring with the same-old, same-old fights between the same cast members so they decide to recast.  By that time, the show is already tired and the new blood rarely makes anything significantly better.  With the Ho shows having been on for so long now, the formula itself is so tired and the audience gets bored easily.  They're also not showing the more glamorous things they used to - now it's just lunches and dinners and get-togethers scripted so they can fight on camera.  That's why Bravo keeps trying new reality shows to see if any of them will catch fire.  The Ho franchise is mostly on its way out, though still has some legs to it.

[Bravo Ratings]

I disagree. The ratings started dropping in Jill's last season. The criticism was that the show had gotten too dark and the constant division into the teams was too boring. And, I think that Jill was the reason for that.

 

I think that when that decline happened the fans the show lost didn't bother to tune in the next season when the show had been recast. Aviva's crazy garnered enough interest for some to check it out mid season, but then they took more than a year to bring it back this season and I think people just forgot about it. 

And then there was the disgusting pervert that is George. 

 

All in all, I don't think that it was a single cast member or even a couple of cast members that kept people tuning in. I think it was a lot of things piling up that caused the ratings to sink. But, the ratings started slipping prior to Jill getting the ax and I think she was a large part of why the decline started happening.

The ratings for the Season 4 were actually marginally higher (1%) than Season 3 (Bethenny's last) in total viewers although there was a 10% decline in the 18-49 viewer segment. In that fourth season, on average 1.21m viewers aged between 18-49 watched each & every episode on its first run airing and that P18-49 total has now dropped to just 629,421 after 19 episodes of Season 6.  Whatever the reasons, RHoNY has now lost almost half of the Season 4 viewers aged in the important ad buyer demographic, and that will have caused a corresponding drop in the ad revenue that Bravo TV receive during its airing.  In addition with a reduced audience, RHoNY can't be used to launch new shows as RHOC has done.  The freshman seasons of  Below Deck, Newlyweds & Southern Charm all had RHOC providing their lead-in audience and all were renewed.    Any show which has aired RHoNY in the 10pm has flopped.     

Edited July 17, 2014 by Bravo Ratings

[archer1267]

I don't think bringing Jill back would do much of anything. Look at her last season - she started it by saying "I've changed. I don't want to be part of the drama any more," and then eagerly dishing as soon as she got back from Australia. She spent so much of S4 holding a grudge against Ramona over S3 - who wanted to see that? Rehashed fights about Bethenny and Scary Island? Booooring.

 

I do miss the Fashion Week tie-ins.

[Bravo Ratings]

I don't think bringing Jill back would do much of anything. Look at her last season - she started it by saying "I've changed. I don't want to be part of the drama any more," and then eagerly dishing as soon as she got back from Australia. She spent so much of S4 holding a grudge against Ramona over S3 - who wanted to see that? Rehashed fights about Bethenny and Scary Island? Booooring.

 

I do miss the Fashion Week tie-ins.

They did film at Mercedes Benz Fashion Week at Lincoln Center last September (the Zang Toi show).  In attendance were Ramona, LuAnn and Sonja and Bravo's cameras filmed them back stage as well as them all sitting in the front row and the fashion show as well.  Unless that footage is used in next week's finale then it ended up on the cutting room floor, which given the expense to get film permits inside NYFW is surprising that it's not even been used as b-roll.  It's those sort of NYC scenes that this season has really lacked. 

[psychoticstate]

I think that "darkness", in general, has hurt all franchises of this show. I've been watching since OC's first days. Back then the show was casting people who actually had some real-life connection, and showcasing mostly the women with their families and at their jobs. It was light-hearted and interesting. There was definitely still drama - we had Lauri's son getting in trouble with the law and Slade chasing Jo with his Hummer. But things didn't feel forced like they do now. I realize that reality tv has never been 100% "real", and I'm okay with that. But as it currently stand, these shows are manufacturing the hell out of things - every single week there's some pretense for bringing the girls together, and fights are the central theme. I think there may be some who prefer it this way, but I'd wager there are a great many who miss the old days. So I don't know that it really has to do with specific cast members, but the general tone of the show. 

 

I agree with this.  I began watching RHOC because I had moved away from the OC and wanted to reclaim the OC a bit by vicariously watching others.  I enjoyed seeing places that I had been to and I liked the house porn and just seeing the lives.  I started watching RHONY because I just love NY.  I loved the scenes in Central Park, seeing the ladies lunching around town, going to the Hamptons, etc.   There was drama but it was "drama light."  I felt that their conflicts were real and not manufactured for the show because it wasn't so OTT and insane.

 

I still enjoy NY but I wish we could see more of NY.  Why didn't they show us Carol's book publicity?  Doesn't Heather do anything interesting with her company?  Heck, show us the ladies lunching and shopping.  And for heaven's sake, bring LuAnn back.  She's a Countess and girl knows how to dress and live elegantly.  That's what I want to see.  I don't want to see Aviva and her fifty gazillion phobias and medical issues. I don't want to see her pervy father.  I like Sonja, usually, but I don't want to hear about her financial problems or her hungry vagina.  I'm okay with her future toaster empire.  I generally don't mind Kristen (but think Josh is a massive douche) but why not show her on her modeling assignments (if any)?  I liked Ramona the first seasons because she was crazy in a fun way but I think maybe the situation with Mario, along with Avery leaving home, is causing her to really lash out.  Not enjoyable to watch.

 

I'm not sure how I would feel about Jill and/or Bethenny coming back.  It might be interesting to see how someone fairly headstrong like Heather would deal with Jill.  And of course having Bethenny and Carol - - two brunettes with bestselling book - - could be interesting.

 

I just hope they retool the show in the right way and get back on track for interesting and enjoyable viewing.

[ryebread]

I think Heather and Carol are two of the least interesting women on any of the shows....coast to coast

For me, I think they *could* be interesting and even likable if they'd stop trying so hard to be cool.  Another thing I found to dislike about Heather this epi - it's been there all along but shrouded by her desire to let you know she's the best at everything is - she's LOUD.  Shouting on the conference call, shouting at the party, shouting while singing that 'song'.  I don't like loud.  Especially when the message she's usually yelling is "I'm the best, baby. Aren't I awesome?"  I find that obnoxious in a man, equally so in a woman. 

[copacabana]

The more we get to see of the city, the better.  It's no accident that my favorite episodes this season took place out of town -- we actually got to see some locations. Much of the time spent in NYC itself seems to be spent in a variety of generic Manhattan eateries and commercial spots -- the occasional nightspot.  Because I would imagine the real luxe -- and more interesting, if not luxe -- venues in NY wouldn't dream of bringing a reality show into their mix, we're left with scenes that look like they could take place anywhere.  

 

And there are only so many storylines available to these women after all these years.  Could be that the franchises -- all of them -- are just sagging under the weight of so many years.  Very few of these women have ever really been interesting on their own -- Ramona, aside from her crazy nastiness and general stupidity, is considered the star and is basically as dull as dishwater. 

[motorcitymom65]

I don't see what difference it makes if Ramona is vicious on purpose, or just vicious. It is as meaningless to me as to whether or not Josh is a dick to Kristen because he wants to hurt her, or if he is just actually a dick who isn't purposefully trying to hurt her.  IMO Josh doesn't try to hurt Kristen, he just doesn't care very much. He is going to do what he wants to do because that is what he wants, and could care less as to what impact that might have on Kristen or their family. Same with Ramona. She has gotten away with always acting like she doesn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. She is just Ramona being Ramona and therefore she shouldn't be judged harshly if her intentions are not bad. Bullshit.

 

She might not have meant to be vicious to Simon and Alex at that first dinner party, but she was. She made the evening uncomfortable for everyone else in that room, which was fine by her because she was unhappy. She could have cared less about how anyone else was feeling - it was all about her discomfort. Same with Beth. Every word she said might have been true, but it was still extremely unkind. Just like Josh might be right that Kristen would understand his issues more if she had ever run a start-up. Fair enough. The fact that it might be true doesn't change the fact that it is a hurtful thing to say and minimizes her feelings. Maybe Lu did have an open marriage. Saying it on camera to the world was a hateful thing to do. So was telling Lu that she wasn't a good mother. If that is not vicious, then someone will have to explain to me what vicious is. 

 

Ramona has always made herself feel better by making others feel small. The problem now is that she is really unhappy in her life, and is taking this to a whole new level. Telling a clearly upset Kristen that she is a terrible hostess, all the while building herself up as a terrific hostess who saved the day with cheese, beer and portable heaters.  Knocking down Jonathan while talking to Kristen, while at the same time propping up her own husband, who apparently garners attention just by walking in a room (yea, how is that going for you Ramona?)  Mocking Lu over and over for not wanting to sing, knowing that more than likely she was hesitant because she has been heavily criticized for her voice over the years. Ramona couldn't just let it go, but had to throw in how wonderful Mario had done getting ready to do the song, how he learned it in just one day. It wasn't enough for Ramona to stab away at Lu, she had to build up her own part of the equation in the process.  This is at the root of why Ramona is such a terrible person. She feels better by making other people feel bad. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by motorcitymom65