S04.E17: After the Fire

[cardigirl]

It was really interesting (to me) to see that Randall was trying to game the therapist throughout the episode as well. She didn't really go along with him on any of the "truths" he thought he knew about what life was really like, and when she called him on that, he back-pedalled and gave a much different scenario of what his life would have been like if his dad had survived the fire.  But both scenarios depended on his MOM giving up her secret much sooner than she actually did. Both scenarios depended on his father being angry with her about having such a secret. I don't think Randall had any intention of trying to get "better" by seeking out that therapist, he went because Beth asked him to. But the scenarios were very telling. 

The therapist herself pointed out that he had chosen someone who was very similar to who his mother was at the time of the fire, which is interesting, because he could project his distrust of his mother and distaste for what she did onto the therapist.  I think he was surprised that the therapist was not more hurt by the awful things he said to her. That's why therapy works though, because therapists are not emotionally attached to you and the usual buttons that work with your family of origin, are not (generally) going to work with them. 

However, he apologized and continued with the exercise and the clarity he got from all of that was that he believes his mother still owes him, big time, for what she did to him. And because of that, she should do the trial, because he loves her so much, he found it and believes it to be her best hope. Love, to Randall, is control. When he loses control, he breaks down. Beth managed to break that control a bit by starting a dance studio, and moving the family to Philadelphia, and becoming someone closer to who she wanted to be, But Randall fought her most of the way.

I don't know if Randall will figure out that he's not doing the best thing for his mother. I believe he believes that he's doing the best thing because he's the best.  But other people's feelings just don't come into it for him. That's hard to watch. 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

4 hours ago, DanaMB said:

I gave up on this show last season then came back. Has it always been so Randall centric? I’m really getting tired of it. 

This Is Us became the Randall show after Sterling won an Emmy.  The writing changed between seasons 2 and 3 because of this.  Unfortunately for the viewer, neither Justin nor Chrissy have won one in the interim.  We are stuck with this being the Randall show for it's duration.

[blondiec0332]

10 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This Is Us became the Randall show after Sterling won an Emmy.  The writing changed between seasons 2 and 3 because of this.  Unfortunately for the viewer, neither Justin nor Chrissy have won one in the interim.  We are stuck with this being the Randall show for it's duration.

It is annoying that this show has become centered around Randall. The showrunners should have planned the three episodes before the season finale to have an alternate universe for each of the Big Three. Only showing Randall's does a disservice to the show and the fans.

[CarpeFelis]

25 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

It was really interesting (to me) to see that Randall was trying to game the therapist throughout the episode as well. She didn't really go along with him on any of the "truths" he thought he knew about what life was really like, and when she called him on that, he back-pedalled and gave a much different scenario of what his life would have been like if his dad had survived the fire.  But both scenarios depended on his MOM giving up her secret much sooner than she actually did. Both scenarios depended on his father being angry with her about having such a secret. I don't think Randall had any intention of trying to get "better" by seeking out that therapist, he went because Beth asked him to. But the scenarios were very telling. 

The therapist herself pointed out that he had chosen someone who was very similar to who his mother was at the time of the fire, which is interesting, because he could project his distrust of his mother and distaste for what she did onto the therapist.  I think he was surprised that the therapist was not more hurt by the awful things he said to her. That's why therapy works though, because therapists are not emotionally attached to you and the usual buttons that work with your family of origin, are not (generally) going to work with them. 

However, he apologized and continued with the exercise and the clarity he got from all of that was that he believes his mother still owes him, big time, for what she did to him. And because of that, she should do the trial, because he loves her so much, he found it and believes it to be her best hope. Love, to Randall, is control. When he loses control, he breaks down. Beth managed to break that control a bit by starting a dance studio, and moving the family to Philadelphia, and becoming someone closer to who she wanted to be, But Randall fought her most of the way.

I don't know if Randall will figure out that he's not doing the best thing for his mother. I believe he believes that he's doing the best thing because he's the best.  But other people's feelings just don't come into it for him. That's hard to watch. 

 

The backpedaling was because the therapist asked him for a different scenario in which his worst fears about what might have happened had Jack lived played out.

I had to laugh when he deliberately insulted her. Was “cheap shoes” really the best (worst) he could come up with?

Randall is manipulating the therapist, too, because he told her he’d gotten over Rebecca’s secret keeping, when plainly he has not (though I really doubt she believed a word of that). And then he has the gall to use it to browbeat Rebecca into saying yes to the clinical trial!

Hey, Randall: IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.   P.S. Unless you die first, you are 100% guaranteed to lose your mother at some point anyway.

I really enjoyed Beth’s “Hell, I could have told you that!” He SO does not deserve her and I have no idea why she didn’t leave his controlling, narcissistic ass YEARS ago.

[Trillian]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

I read an interview with the show runners, and they describe Randall’s manipulation as divisive because half think he made the right call.  Really, show runners?  Who in their right mind thinks this guilt trip is fine?  And funny how St. Jack and Randall conveniently forget Jack’s big secret.  Nope, only Rebecca is the horrible, abusive one.  I hope Miguel, Kate, and Kevin rip into him next week.

I think that’s the fundamental problem so many of us are having. It could ok - brave even - to portray Randall as an ass. Let’s face it, every family has a Randall in one form or another. What’s problematic for me is that they are still thinking of him as a hero whom we should actually like.  It doesn’t help that Stirling Brown is a great actor and comes across personally as a likeable guy. It’s hard to picture him as a villain. I suspect it’s that dissonance between what they want us to see and what’s actually coming across on the sceeen that bugs. It certainly is for me. 

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

 

I had to laugh when he deliberately insulted her. Was “cheap shoes” really the best (worst) he could come up with?

 

I was waiting for her to point this out.  Cheap shoes is only an insult when used by Hannibal Lector.  

[CarpeFelis]

7 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

The backpedaling was because the therapist asked him for a different scenario in which his worst fears about what might have happened had Jack lived played out.

I had to laugh when he deliberately insulted her. Was “cheap shoes” really the best (worst) he could come up with?

Randall is manipulating the therapist, too, because he told her he’d gotten over Rebecca’s secret keeping, when plainly he has not (though I really doubt she believed a word of that). And then he has the gall to use it to browbeat Rebecca into saying yes to the clinical trial!

Hey, Randall: IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.   P.S. Unless you die first, you are 100% guaranteed to lose your mother at some point anyway.

I really enjoyed Beth’s “Hell, I could have told you that!” He SO does not deserve her and I have no idea why she didn’t leave his controlling, narcissistic ass YEARS ago.

ETA: Forgot to mention, in response to the post I quoted: it wasn’t Beth’s idea to move them to Philly, it was his. Totally agree about Randall’s response to losing some control over her there, though.

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, debraran said:

I was thinking that too, they made him so unattractive. I also felt it was "filler" a lot of the show, it could have been done in half the time and had the fallout the second half.

Yes, I agree, if she lost weight, it was for this show. She didn't and I know she was heavier to begin with but at that age, to gain that much weight with twins, all over and keep it all, No.  First thing I thought of when they were all eating together and I feel bad about it, "Kate is very heavy and there was no Jack to mourn and eat junk food" that Kevin talked about first year.

Is there anyway we are wrong? When she was at party was this year, this summer, would that be 9 months or did she drop out or not go? Do you think she tells Kevin that he manipulated her or Miguel? Please let Miguel get some chutzpah and take his wife back!

 

5 hours ago, kili said:

I was so angry at Randall emotionally blackmailing his Mom into going into the drug trial.

I felt so bad for Rebecca. As she said last week, she kept putting her life on hold and had finally decided to live it. She was so happy. Now, her son let her know that he actually hasn't forgiven her for the William lie and that he feels that she has unfairly leaned on him since Jack died. So, the least she can do is participate in the drug trial he picked because it is the only thing he's ever asked of her. If she doesn't, he will carry the guilt for the next 20 years. She must say yes now. So, she acquiesces. She puts her life on hold once again.

He appears to have no idea how much she's given him that he needed or wanted. He cannot seem to see the world from anyone else's perspective. He sees nobody else's sacrifices but his own.

He piously tells the therapist that he will not re-litigate the William lie with his Mom, but then he uses it to cut her emotionally open and gives her no path to resolve it. The change in her tone and her facial features after he brings it up is heartbreaking.  He let's her know he has sacrificed himself by sublimating his feelings because he didn't want to give her pain. She must go on the trial so that he does not sacrifice himself again, but it's not actually resolving his feelings about the William lie.

I'm not his therapist, but this entire episode is a convincing case that Randall is a Narcissist.

 

4 hours ago, Jillybean said:

Many years ago, I was calling around to try to find a therapist. I spoke to one and told her I did not want someone who would tell me what to do. Based on that, she concluded she couldn't work with me. Always felt I dodged a bullet there.

I didn't particularly enjoy this episode. 

It's been mentioned upthread a couple of times, but it doesn't make much sense that Kate is still morbidly obese in the scenarios where Jack lives. We were previously led to believe that Jack's death is what led to her enormous weight gain, although this season it's seemed more like Marc's abuse is where that trajectory starts. If Jack had lived, it's unlikely she would have met Marc.

I don't know much about clinical trials, but my understanding is that one cannot simply just decide to participate in a clinical trial. Not to mention, she may not get the experimental drug. Since Rebecca is at the cabin in August, she clearly doesn't end up spending 9 months in St. Louis.

Either way, adult Randall has a history of manipulating others to get what he wants, but this instance is really beyond the pale.

 

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Jack is the reverse George Bailey: things would be worse had he lived.  (Worse for everyone except maybe Kate's daughters who never were.)

Shame on you, Randall, for bullying your mother into doing the trial because it will make you feel better.  Incredibly selfish.  (But kudos to SKB for a great job portraying such a messed up character.)

Season finale next week??!!

Which wasn't true.  Well, maybe not a confrontation but he was clearly furious at her for weeks.  Rebecca knew how he felt.

He apparently blames Rebecca for losing out on his dream of going to Howard Univ too.

Randall probably didn't put that much thought into the lives of his siblings, except to diminish Kevin's fame and wealth.  I bet the writers/producers were trying to figure out how to present a slimmer Kate but couldn't come up with a good alternative.

I could fanwank that Randall does not believe that Kate gained the weight because of Jack’s death. He only feels like his own pain is valid and she just uses it as a convenient excuse to overeat.

However, reading your posts made me think there was no way to include Chrissy in this episode and make her look thinner.

54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is the best possible outcome, IMO. I hope, hope, HOPE that Rebecca tells Miguel why she's doing it and he flies to Philly and kicks Randall's ass.

Or Rebecca finally stands up for herself and tells Randall to fuck off with this bullshit. One of the reasons she is in this mess is that she has always been passive with the men in her life. Hell, Randall is under the mistaken impression that he had done much more for her than she has done for him.

We can still keep the part about Miguel kicking his ass.🙂 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Or Rebecca finally stands up for herself and tells Randall to fuck off with this bullshit. One of the reasons she is in this mess is that she has always been passive with the men in her life. Hell, Randall is under the mistaken impression that he had done much more for her than she has done for him.

We can still keep the part about Miguel kicking his ass.🙂 

You are so right. I stand corrected. :)

[qtpye]

I now need a fantasy episode where Kevin and Kate think about how much better their lives would have been if the family never adopted Randall and lavished him with attention.

[CarpeFelis]

If Hollywood could give us a young Will Smith in Gemini Man and an astonishingly real-looking Kurt Russell circa 1990 in Guardians of the Galaxy 2, they could certainly give us a thin(ner) Kate with her face digitally superimposed on another actress’ body. She wasn’t even on screen very long as Adult Kate. So I have to believe either this was unworkable budgetwise, or the writers preferred to have Randall just not care how Kate turned out, or maybe both.

[Blakeston]

41 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This Is Us became the Randall show after Sterling won an Emmy.  The writing changed between seasons 2 and 3 because of this.  Unfortunately for the viewer, neither Justin nor Chrissy have won one in the interim.  We are stuck with this being the Randall show for it's duration.

The makers of the show are totally enamored with Sterling K. Brown/Randall. One of the showrunners gave an interview after the episode where Randall first tries therapy. He explained that the reason we didn't see the therapist until the very end of the episode was because they felt like they just had to keep the camera on Randall as much as possible, because he's so compelling.

And I think it's always been that way. Season one was The Randall Show even more than seasons two, three or four IMO.

[blondiec0332]

2 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I think that’s the fundamental problem so many of us are having. It could ok - brave even - to portray Randall as an ass. Let’s face it, every family has a Randall in one form or another. What’s problematic for me is that they are still thinking of him as a hero whom we should actually like.  It doesn’t help that Stirling Brown is a great actor and comes across personally as a likeable guy. It’s hard to picture him as a villain. I suspect it’s that dissonance between what they want us to see and what’s actually coming across on the sceeen that bugs. It certainly is for me. 

I have watched plenty of shows that had characters that weren't meant to be heroes but viewers thought of as such.  I  have also watched plenty of shows that had characters that were asshole characters that viewers were supposed to view as assholes.  But I don't know if I remember a show that had a asshole character that the showrunners didn't know was an asshole but viewers did.  Randall is an asshole. And if the people behind the scenes don't realize that then they aren't watching the show.

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I think that’s the fundamental problem so many of us are having. It could ok - brave even - to portray Randall as an ass. Let’s face it, every family has a Randall in one form or another. What’s problematic for me is that they are still thinking of him as a hero whom we should actually like.  It doesn’t help that Stirling Brown is a great actor and comes across personally as a likeable guy. It’s hard to picture him as a villain. I suspect it’s that dissonance between what they want us to see and what’s actually coming across on the sceeen that bugs. It certainly is for me. 

I think he's coming across as nothing but extremely twisted, there's nothing heroic or likable at this point.  What he did to his mother on the phone was villainy in my book.  He's not even doing it for her at all, it's not his need to control or be right -- he needs it for himself, so that he can rest easy knowing everything was tried as he's losing his 4th parent (he thinks).  Total selfishness.  Maybe he can be redeemed by seeing the error of his ways in more therapy, but I think something happens where she is not in the trial when we see ahead to their birthdays.  Either he backs off, she stands up, or is not accepted into the study.  Regardless, I don't read about what writers think very much because it just muddies the waters.  Their product is on the screen, we see what we see and we don't usually all see it the same, but this time, Randall didn't do or say one thing that made me think he was acting out of anything but selfishness. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I now need a fantasy episode where Kevin and Kate think about how much better their lives would have been if the family never adopted Randall and lavished him with attention.

That made me laugh, but also made me think about how neither Kevin nor Kate have ever really thought about their dead brother.  I think Kevin mentioned him in a previous season, but Kyle (i think?) has rarely been mentioned.

[sasha206]

I finally thought the show was going to interject some realism.  Like, "Hey, turns out I'm fucking pissed at my mom!  Let me deal with that anger!"

Instead, the result of the therapy session of him always having to fix everything is him manipulating his mother into spending 9 months away from all she knows in an experimental treatment that likely won't work without consulting her husband, with no regard to her feelings, but since I was a good son and you kept my bio dad from me, you owe me.   BECAUSE I CAN'T LOSE ANOTHER PARENT.  Hey jackass, are you going to keep her on life support if she's a vegetable too?  Have her corpse frozen?

And are we to believe the therapist didn't pump the breaks and say:  So your life has been plagued by your unrealistic need to save your dad and your insanity thinking the result would be different if you had just tried, and that breakthrough results in I can save my mom through an experimental treatment and I'll use my bio dad issue to guilt her into going, fuck what she wants, fuck her husband, fuck the siblings b/c if she said no and I lose her, then my life is fucked.  

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by sasha206

[qtpye]

4 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I finally thought the show was going to interject some realism.  Like, "Hey, turns out I'm fucking pissed at my mom!  Let me deal with that anger!"

Instead, the result of the therapy session of him always having to fix everything is him manipulating his mother into spending 9 months away from all she knows in an experimental treatment that likely won't work without consulting her husband, with no regard to her feelings, but since I was a good son and you kept my bio dad from me, you owe me.   BECAUSE I CAN'T LOSE ANOTHER PARENT.  Hey jackass, are you going to keep her on life support if she's a vegetable too?  Have her corpse frozen?

And are we to believe the therapist didn't pump the breaks and say:  So your life has been plagued by your unrealistic need to save your dad and your insanity thinking the result would be different if you had just tried, and that breakthrough results in I can save my mom through an experimental treatment and I'll use my bio dad issue to guilt her into going, fuck what she wants, fuck her husband, fuck the siblings b/c if she said no and I lose her, then my life is fucked.  

 

 

What I hate about the “fixing” everything mindset is that it makes Randall believe everything he does is selfless.

Randall has plenty of valid reasons to be insecure.

He is the outsider of his family due to race. When his white prom dates father was disgusting by Randall dating his daughter...well he would not have had that reaction to Kevin.

Kevin and Kate, as twins, had a natural bond that left Randall the odd man out.

Instead they decide to focus on his sanctimonious jerk tendencies to think he automatically has the moral high ground.

It was plain selfish for him to uproot his family from their beautiful home so he can fulfill Superman fantasies but Randall never sees himself as wrong.

[Evagirl]

They can bring back Saint Jack as many times as they want IMO.  I fell in love with show because of "The Good Dad".  Once they cut Jack loose forever, I'll stick to reading recaps.

I am just not that invested in any of the sibs, especially Randall who used to be my favorite.  Now it's Kate b/c I do want to see Little Jack's progression as he grows into the young man they've shown him to become.

Kevin is okay I guess, but I don't loose any sleep when he's not the focus.  

I'd also like to see how Rebecca and the 2nd husband (can't think of his name) developed their relationship.  I'm sure they will include a lot of past scenes with Jack.

Hate me if you much, but to each their own.

[CarpeFelis]

Quote

In the most gutting scene of the episode, Randall plays the “good son” trump card in a way he never has before. As he sees it, this is the first time he’s ever put his own needs above Rebecca’s.

It’s a deeply unhealthy impulse but a deeply relatable one too. Like Jack, Randall is someone who wants to fix every problem he sees. He’s not comfortable living in grey areas or accepting uncertainty. That’s what led him to become Rebecca’s support system in the first place—even once it was clear she could take care of herself. And it’s what leads him to selflessly take control of her healthcare now. 

The above is from the AV Club’s review of the episode. All I can say is, how the hell can they think he’s “selflessly” taking control of her healthcare? This is probably the most selfish thing he’s ever done!

[cardigirl]

55 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

The backpedaling was because the therapist asked him for a different scenario in which his worst fears about what might have happened had Jack lived played out.

I had to laugh when he deliberately insulted her. Was “cheap shoes” really the best (worst) he could come up with?

Randall is manipulating the therapist, too, because he told her he’d gotten over Rebecca’s secret keeping, when plainly he has not (though I really doubt she believed a word of that). And then he has the gall to use it to browbeat Rebecca into saying yes to the clinical trial!

Hey, Randall: IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.   P.S. Unless you die first, you are 100% guaranteed to lose your mother at some point anyway.

I really enjoyed Beth’s “Hell, I could have told you that!” He SO does not deserve her and I have no idea why she didn’t leave his controlling, narcissistic ass YEARS ago.

He started backpedalling after the initial meeting.  That's when he decided he could "best" the therapist. When she asked him why he thought the family would have failed if not for him. 

His initial fantasy if Jack had lived still had Jack being angry with Rebecca, but everything else turning out beautiful.  The therapist stopped him AGAIN, and that's when he created the scenario where he was less likeable and less positive. 

 

[Jillybean]

SKB did a Facebook Live after the episode aired last night. I watched it this morning and even he said Randall did the wrong thing.

[blondiec0332]

16 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

Quote

In the most gutting scene of the episode, Randall plays the “good son” trump card in a way he never has before. As he sees it, this is the first time he’s ever put his own needs above Rebecca’s.

It’s a deeply unhealthy impulse but a deeply relatable one too. Like Jack, Randall is someone who wants to fix every problem he sees. He’s not comfortable living in grey areas or accepting uncertainty. That’s what led him to become Rebecca’s support system in the first place—even once it was clear she could take care of herself. And it’s what leads him to selflessly take control of her healthcare now. 

The above is from the AV Club’s review of the episode. All I can say is, how the hell can they think he’s “selflessly” taking control of her healthcare? This is probably the most selfish thing he’s ever done!

Are they trying to gaslight us?  Viewers saw what happened.

[A.Ham]

6 hours ago, kili said:

I'm not his therapist, but this entire episode is a convincing case that Randall is a Narcissist.

Bingo! 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

He apparently blames Rebecca for losing out on his dream of going to Howard Univ too

Not really "blame", because attending Howard is part of his negative scenario.  It didn't make him happy in the long term.

 

[sasha206]

Well, I guess this manipulation by Randall is probably a great way to set up drama between siblings, so I suppose the writers are being smart this way.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

That made me laugh, but also made me think about how neither Kevin nor Kate have ever really thought about their dead brother.  I think Kevin mentioned him in a previous season, but Kyle (i think?) has rarely been mentioned.

This has been a major pet peeve for me since season one. There's research about the trauma losing a sibling in the womb can cause especially in the case of a multiple birth. I always thought that this would have been something worth exploring because it could have explained to a degree Kevin's animosity towards Randall and the self-worth issues both Kevin and Kate are dealing with (a form of survivor's guilt). But we never even got to see how they learn about Kyle. The only one whose reaction was deemed worthy for some screentime was *bingo* Randall. 

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

We can still keep the part about Miguel kicking his ass.🙂

You know the scene in Airplane! in which the woman becomes hysterical and they are lined up to slap her?  Hmm. . .

[Gabs66]

15 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

I loved the actor who played the therapist. Otherwise, this was unwatchable. Was it Sterling’s Emmy reel? 

It should be  the actor that plays young Randall's Emmy reel. He was wonderful

[A.Ham]

1 hour ago, blondiec0332 said:

But I don't know if I remember a show that had a asshole character that the showrunners didn't know was an asshole but viewers did.

I present you with: Delilah from A million little things. And to varying degrees, Maggie and Gary, from the same show. Though I wouldn't suggest you subject yourself to that trainwreck for confirmation.

Edited March 18, 2020 by A.Ham

[thesupremediva1]

What a left turn. This Is Us is now one-third Sopranos plot.

Melfi figured out by the end of The Sopranos that psychopaths actually become better at exercising their pathology through therapy. Tony Soprano became a better liar and a more effective criminal through his sessions.

Randall goes through, what, two therapy sessions? And now he's more manipulative than ever.

They say the most dangerous people are the ones who believe their own lies. What Randall said to Rebecca he absolutely 100% believed. My skin crawled. He really believes she OWES him that. She absolutely does not. I desperately hope Kevin punches him in the face, because Randall's self-righteousness is toxic and completely dangerous. I'd be scared to run up against someone like him in real life.

I am dealing with a lot of similar issues to Randall right now. In fact, of the Big 3 (how crazy that "Big 3" in the second alternate universe doesn't include Randall at all!), I'm most like Randall. I have major anxiety and panic issues that cost me an important relationship, I'm an overachiever, a control freak, etc. I cut Randall a lot slack over the years because I really get where he's coming from, and I always felt his core was good. This ep changed that for me, and I'm not sure the writers intended that. I fear they crossed a line we will never come back from. 

I could see pulling the "good child" card if you were the only one and gave up your life to care for your mother. You didn't, Randall. You live with your own nuclear family and have your own life and career. I cannot fathom someone who has it all CONSTANTLY going outside his own nuclear family for internal validation - first with his high-pressure job, then William, then fostering Deja, then William's building, then the Philly council, and now Rebecca's illness. You left the house years ago, Randall. Rebecca is her own person and gets to make her own choices. 

I don't know why Randall thinks he can literally halt death. Yes, Jack died young, but William was an old man and Rebecca is not exactly a spring chicken. She's also not confined to a wheelchair or anything. He's really having a disproportionate response to this. The way he twisted what the therapist helped him to figure out is... terrifying. 

I can only hope when all this comes to a head that Beth helps him see the light. He owes everyone an apology for being a narcissist and a master manipulator. 

[blondiec0332]

3 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

They say the most dangerous people are the ones who believe their own lies. What Randall said to Rebecca he absolutely 100% believed. My skin crawled. He really believes she OWES him that. She absolutely does not. I desperately hope Kevin punches him in the face, because Randall's self-righteousness is toxic and completely dangerous. I'd be scared to run up against someone like him in real life.

If I wasn't a regular viewer of this show and had just seen the last five minutes of it I would absolutely believe Randall was a cold blooded villain.  As it is I'm not sure he isn't.

[ams1001]

deleted - wrong page

Edited March 18, 2020 by ams1001
oops

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

If I wasn't a regular viewer of this show and had just seen the last five minutes of it I would absolutely believe Randall was a cold blooded villain.  As it is I'm not sure he isn't.

I don't know if you ever caught Sterling on Supernatural, but he was giving me major Gordon vibes in the end of this episode.  

[bybrandy]

I actually kind of like that they didn't try to make Kate thin because I think most people who are massively overweight have loads of reasons that is such and most of them aren't some deep seeded trauma.

[sasha206]

2 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

I actually kind of like that they didn't try to make Kate thin because I think most people who are massively overweight have loads of reasons that is such and most of them aren't some deep seeded trauma.

That's a very good point.  In his eyes, she's perfect the way she is.  

[MamaBird]

2 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

I don't know if I remember a show that had a asshole character that the showrunners didn't know was an asshole but viewers did. 

I remember a situation like that: Big Love, with the lead character Bill Henrickson.  At the end of the show he was practically martyred, and we viewers realized that the showrunners meant us to be viewing him as a hero instead of a letch whose "testimony of the pants" guided his life of polygamy.  That seemed to be as much of a surprise for them as it was for us.

[taragel]

 

16 hours ago, Roxie said:

Way back, she was also the voice of Bobby Hill on "King of the Hill."

 

And way, way back she was Delores Rebchuck in Grease 2 -- the little sister of Lorna Luft's character.

[The Ringo Kidd]

I really don’t want to see the dream episode where Randall cures the corona virus.

[camom]

At Kevin's premiere Randall said that the drug trial started in two weeks.  I'm hoping that they're either too late or that Rebecca isn't accepted into the trial.  That way she isn't the one saying NO and Randall can't blame her (but he'll blame someone, I'm sure).  He's become such a selfish asshole.  I really didn't like the episode that much.  I kept waiting for some kind of comic relief, but there was absolutely none.

 

[Veronica]

Given how threatened Jack was by any other man, especially a black man, being an influence on Randall, I’m not really thinking he would have been all, “Let’s go meet your bio-dad!” 

I really do wish we would find out at some point Jack knew about William, how to find him, where he was, and was all  in one keeping it from Randall. 

[Blakeston]

In defense of the writers, I don't think they're asking us to like Randall right now.

The writers love the character, but I don't think they believe he's infallible. They've gone out of their way to have other characters (like Beth, the therapist, and a more-likeable-than-ever Kevin) point out how loony he's acting.

Also, I don't think we can draw any conclusions from Kate being heavy in both of Randall's future scenarios. That was the show's only real option. The only way to give us a thin Kate would be by using a different actress, which would be wildly distracting and overshadow everything else in the episode. 

If Kate was depicted as thin in Randall's nightmare scenario, that would make it seem like he's afraid of her being fit and sharing the spotlight with him. And if she was depicted as thin in Randall's ideal scenario, that would suggest that Randall hates his sister's body, and fantasizes about her being someone else. 

[qtpye]

29 minutes ago, The Ringo Kidd said:

I really don’t want to see the dream episode where Randall cures the corona virus.

This would have happened if only Rebecca had told him about William.

[Ohiopirate02]

14 minutes ago, Veronica said:

Given how threatened Jack was by any other man, especially a black man, being an influence on Randall, I’m not really thinking he would have been all, “Let’s go meet your bio-dad!” 

 

Jack also wouldn't stand for Randall to be that cold to his family especially Rebecca for years.  There should have been a come-to-Jesus talk between Jack and Randall well before Kevin's wedding.  Jack wouldn't stand by and allow Randall to keep hurting Rebecca like that.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

I find it odd that Randall seems to struggle with being a black kid in a white family. I understand it must be strange to be surrounded by an adoptive family that look nothing like you but given his birth parents abandoned him you think he would be more appreciative and just get over it. 

It seems in his real life and fantasy life he tries to overcompensate for his lack of a black upbringing. Reminds me of the premise of the show Blackish. 

 

Of all the things Randall struggles with THAT makes more sense to me than anything. I admit that I have never suffered from anxiety or depression, so I can’t speak on that, but I can certainly see how it would be hard to grow up as a black person in an all white adoptive family. I know people that grew up with their white biological family and feel similarly (for example their white parent and white half siblings). 
 

It’s not about not being grateful or not loving your parents, it’s about not having a black community or role models that are empathetic during your formative years- I say this as a black woman raised by mostly black women (and some black men), they walked the walk they knew how to lead me through my formative years. 
 

In the disability community there is an acknowledgment among many disabled people of color that their parents could teach them how the world would see them due to race, but not how the world would see them as a person with a disability- because they are often the only disabled person in their family. Or LGBTQ adults who never had access to any similarly situated role models or people who could advise them in their part of their life. One can have had a happy and nurturing childhood and still have things to work through or things that weren’t addressed or “holes”. Parents are just people, usually who are trying their best. 

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Jack also wouldn't stand for Randall to be that cold to his family especially Rebecca for years.  There should have been a come-to-Jesus talk between Jack and Randall well before Kevin's wedding.  Jack wouldn't stand by and allow Randall to keep hurting Rebecca like that.

I agree. Jack loves his woman and would’ve made Randall work it out long before that. 

[PRgal]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Of all the things Randall struggles with THAT makes more sense to me than anything. I admit that I have never suffered from anxiety or depression, so I can’t speak on that, but I can certainly see how it would be hard to grow up as a black person in an all white adoptive family. I know people that grew up with their white biological family and feel similarly (for example their white parent and white half siblings). 
 

It’s not about not being grateful or not loving your parents, it’s about not having a black community or role models that are empathetic during your formative years- I say this as a black woman raised by mostly black women (and some black men), they walked the walk they knew how to lead me through my formative years. 
 

In the disability community there is an acknowledgment among many disabled people of color that their parents could teach them how the world would see them due to race, but not how the world would see them as a person with a disability- because they are often the only disabled person in their family. 

I agree. Jack loves his woman and would’ve made Randall work it out long before that. 

Agreed.  They discussed this in our adoption prep course (when we were looking into adopting internationally.  One question they WEREN'T able to answer was how to address discrimination between differing non-white communities - like how to address discrimination from East Asian groups if a family adopts a black child (and neither parent is black).  I don't think they've ever heard that question asked)).  And there are issues between immigrant parents and their non-immigrant children as well.  Issues I'm dealing with TO THIS VERY DAY as a 40 year old.

[kili]

Quote

 

In defense of the writers, I don't think they're asking us to like Randall right now.

The writers love the character, but I don't think they believe he's infallible.

 

I'm no longer sure that the writers do believe that.

When he was whining about going to Kate and Toby's bachelor/bachelorette party because something could happen with Deja. I thought "Here he will finally learn that he can be wrong." He panicked, got worse and interrupted Beth watching male dancers gyrate. She read him the Riot Act. "Yes! Finally, Beth is the one portrayed in the right." Then, they show us Deja living in a car. Lesson flipped. What the writers were telling us is that Randall is in the right and Beth is a shrew. How dare she watch gyrating dancers when Deja is homeless!

Then, he decided to run for councilman of a city several hours away from where he lives. His commuting was making things rough and he was neglecting his family. Beth asks him to quit the race because his win is not likely and it is costing the family too much. He refuses. "Finally! Beth gets to be the voice of reason." Nope, against all odds, he wins and they move to Philly. 

No matter how likely it is for Randall to be wrong, he will be right. I'm sure that the story goes that "thoughtless" Kevin convinces his Mom not to do the trial and she quickly deteriorates. After the incident in the cabin episode, Kevin repents his thoughtless ways and no longer works against Randall so he can now convince his Mom to go on the trial. She instantly recovers what memory she lost and goes on to live a rich life for 12 more years (until she is felled by some mysterious illness that she wouldn't have gotten if people would have listened to Randall). Just listen to Randall, people. Resistance is futile.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

11 minutes ago, kili said:

No matter how likely it is for Randall to be wrong, he will be right. I'm sure that the story goes that "thoughtless" Kevin convinces his Mom not to do the trial and she quickly deteriorates. After the incident in the cabin episode, Kevin repents his thoughtless ways and no longer works against Randall so he can now convince his Mom to go on the trial. She instantly recovers what memory she lost and goes on to live a rich life for 12 more years (until she is felled by some mysterious illness that she wouldn't have gotten if people would have listened to Randall). Just listen to Randall, people. Resistance is futile.

 

I can't agree with this.  In the flashforward,  Rebecca is in Kevin's house in Pennsylvania.  He is her primary caregiver in her final years.  We also see that Randall and Beth are still in Philadelphia at that point.  Randall obviously learns how to relinquish control at some point in the future.  We will eventually see what transpires for Randall to do this.  Could it be Kate's death or something tragic happening to Annie or Deja?  

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, Gabs66 said:

It should be  the actor that plays young Randall's Emmy reel. He was wonderful

He is so good.  I love teen Randall.  He is so earnest.  He is also nothing like Randall now. 

[deirdra]

And how will Randall feel if Rebecca spends the last lucid 9 mos of her life in a trial, away from the family, the only thing she cares about?  Half the people in trials get the placebo.

Teen Beth is also good.  She has all of adult Beth's mannerisms down pat.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by deirdra

[Blakeston]

41 minutes ago, kili said:

I'm no longer sure that the writers do believe that.

When he was whining about going to Kate and Toby's bachelor/bachelorette party because something could happen with Deja. I thought "Here he will finally learn that he can be wrong." He panicked, got worse and interrupted Beth watching male dancers gyrate. She read him the Riot Act. "Yes! Finally, Beth is the one portrayed in the right." Then, they show us Deja living in a car. Lesson flipped. What the writers were telling us is that Randall is in the right and Beth is a shrew. How dare she watch gyrating dancers when Deja is homeless!

Then, he decided to run for councilman of a city several hours away from where he lives. His commuting was making things rough and he was neglecting his family. Beth asks him to quit the race because his win is not likely and it is costing the family too much. He refuses. "Finally! Beth gets to be the voice of reason." Nope, against all odds, he wins and they move to Philly. 

No matter how likely it is for Randall to be wrong, he will be right. I'm sure that the story goes that "thoughtless" Kevin convinces his Mom not to do the trial and she quickly deteriorates. After the incident in the cabin episode, Kevin repents his thoughtless ways and no longer works against Randall so he can now convince his Mom to go on the trial. She instantly recovers what memory she lost and goes on to live a rich life for 12 more years (until she is felled by some mysterious illness that she wouldn't have gotten if people would have listened to Randall). Just listen to Randall, people. Resistance is futile.

 

There have been some recent times when the writers presented Randall as flat-out wrong. When Randall refused to go to therapy, Beth called him the fuck out, and he realized that she was right. In this episode, when Randall suggested that he could have saved William, Jack and Rebecca, the therapist told him to stop playing games. There's no way the writers thought that dream sequence was realistic.

Randall was also presented as wrong when he was about to quit his elected office right after winning, and Beth had to take charge and come up with a better solution. And he admitted he was wrong after he was cruel to Kevin during Kevin's rehab therapy session.