S01.E11: An Un-Birthday Present

[Trini]

On the Kane sisters' birthday, Kate and Alice contend with demons from the past, and an unexpected guest makes a surprise appearance in Gotham.

Mairzee Almas directed the episode written by Chad Fiveash and James Stoteraux.

Airdate: 1/26/2020

[scarynikki12]

My Mary understands the difference between doppelgängers. Of course she does because she’s the best. 

I really enjoy Alice but I completely loved Beth here. Let’s see...Kate didn’t meet Constantine during Crisis did she? Cause I think he could sort it all out and let us have both. 

Kate learned that her doppelgänger was able to save her Beth and prevent the creation of Alice. That’s gonna stay with her for a long time. I hope she considers that it happening on one Earth doesn’t guarantee it would have been the same here. There was no doubt an Earth where Kate became Alice so she shouldn’t let it torture her. Maybe saving this Beth will help. 

Sophie running the Crows is a good look on her even if Alice can’t be contained. 

Sweet of the Gothamites to gather and demand Batwoman return. 

[Pepper the Cat]

Poor little kitty cat. As soon as he came on the scene I knew he’d be toast but I kept hoping he wouldn’t. 

😢

[Maverick]

 I missed something.   If Mary doesn't know about Kate being Batwoman, the multiverse and Crisis, where exactly does she think that this came from??  It's enough of a stretch with Luke accepting this craziness out of hand having never interacted with the rest of the Arrowverse.

 Kate should really be calling in Team Flash or at least Team Arrow.   Someone with some actual experience with dopplegangers.   But then they might have to explain why no other doppleganger has gone all Timeless when they're on the same Earth.  

[tennisgurl]

Of course Mary figured out the whole Crisis and who Beth is right away, because Mary is the best! Kate's face was hilarious while Mary figured everything out, she looked so shook. So where does Mary actually think Beth came from? Just birthday magic? I mean, magic totally exists in this universe so its not that much of a stretch, but Mary probably doesent know that. People in Gotham are apparently so behind on what crazy stuff goes on in their planet that they think that something as simple as a mask is ridiculous. 

I like other universe Beth (even if she is taking the possible death of her whole world pretty well) a lot, I hope that she can stick around at least for awhile. Damn, in her universe other Kate managed to save her, you know that is going to hurt Kate for a real long time. Of course there are tons of variables in every universe, and its not as simple as "if I had tried harder, I could have saved her" things could have been very different in her universe, and she really could have also died, but I guess now she will never know, and that really sucks. At least now she has this new shiny non evil Beth!

As soon as Mouse gave little Beth/Alice that kitten, I started cringing because I knew what would happen, but it was still horrible to see. Can we please leave cute little animals out of this tragic backstory please?! I wonder if Mouses dad is still alive? Did they grow up to kill him eventually? The young actress playing young Beth/Alice is doing a good job, I thought she did well in the moment when you could see Beth snapping and start to embrace being Alice. But, like Sophie said, while I feel terrible for little Beth, Alice* has gone way too far now. 

Sophie running the crows does give her more to do, even if she did seriously underestimate Alice. Now she is back out, yet again. 

Wow, so GCPD is so homophobic, they wont even call Batwoman to save their own peoples kids anymore? Jim Gordon? At least the normal Gothamites seem to be supportive. 

[Josh371982]

Loving Beth and I'm praying they keep her past next episode which I dont understand why we have to wait until the 16th. I get next Sunday cause of the Super Bowl. Also Mouse reminding me again why I hate him he had a hand in keeping Beth from her family and should not be considered her "brother" and his bullshit about Kate being fine without Beth when Kate was miserable. Pissed that POS didn't fucking die. Also I wondering if they find a way for Beth and "Alice" to merge in the next episode. Beth being a part of "Alice" might get her to realize Mouse is a POS who helped keep her from her sister and Father. While like his POS father filled Her with that garbage about Kate and Their dad being happy without her 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Josh371982

[bmoore4026]

Well, Crisis just made Kate's life a hell of a lot more difficult, hasn't it?  Two Beths running around and they both can't exist at the same time.  Whoopsie doodle.

[mtlchick]

18 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

Loving Beth and I'm praying they keep her past next episode which I dont understand why we have to wait until the 16th. I get next Sunday cause of the Super Bowl.

Watching this later, but Feb 9th is the Oscars. 

[Primal Slayer]

So Kate has a doppelganger sister who she would do anything for...how Sara/E2 Laurel of her. 

I like how the writers thoughts on Crisis are just "We created a new Earth that is practically the same as the one the audience has been watching so we'll just throw in doppelgangers to show the fallout from having so many universes"

Surely Beth/Alice arent having the migraines because both can't inhabit the same Earth....right? Cause if that's so...Arrowverse writers need to make up a rule book.

[thuganomics85]

Yep, as soon as Young Mouse brought Young Beth that kitty, I was like "Whelp, that poor thing is done for!"  Thanks for reminding me that August is an evil bastard, show!  Because, you know, the whole kidnapping a young girl thing didn't really sell me on that!  Not to mention the leftover residuals from John Emmet Tracy's time on iZombie...

So, it looks like Beth really is an effect from the whole Crisis thing, and came from a universe where Kate saved her and they are still close.  Aww!  Fun seeing Rachel Skarsten get to play a different type of character, and get to act opposite the likes of Camrus Johnson and Nicole Kang more than normal (and not in a "I just poisoned you and your mother!  Mwwaaah!" way!)

Like others, I'm also confused over Mary's reaction to Beth and what does she exactly think is happening, since she doesn't know about Crisis.  At least Drunk Mary figured out about the whole multi-universe thing!  Again, Mary needs to find out about Kate and get more involved with everyone else, stat!  Mary needs to be in the next crossover for sure!

Despite Sophie's best efforts, Alice still manages to trick her and get away.  But now Jacob is all "Sweet, she's a fugitive, now!  You can't just kill her!" about it, and Sophie's seems a little conflicted about that bloodlust.

I guess I can understand the two week break since even Batwoman would have a tough time taking on the Superbowl and Oscars!

Why am I not surprised that the GCPD would suddenly not want Batwoman's help, after she comes out?  I swear, outside of Gordon, Montoya, and Bullock on his good days, the GCPD might be the worst fictional police force in the (multiple) universe!

 

[quarks]

1. So, wait, now two versions of the same person can't exist on the same Earth at once? Does someone want to inform Flash? Or, for that matter, the last couple of episodes of Supergirl?

And for that matter, why isn't Kate calling Team Flash or Team Supers, especially since she knows they have a bit more experience with this kinda stuff?  And especially since dopplegangers showing up seems like the sort of thing The Justice League/Superfriends should be kinda keeping a group eye on.

2. So far I like New Beth (can we call her Astro Beth or something?) but Rachel Skarsten seems to be having much more fun playing Alice.

3. So, just a few episodes after multiple criminals - including Mouse - escaped from Arkham Asylum, Sophie is convinced that Arkham Asylum can keep Alice imprisoned/help Alice out mentally. Uh-huh. 

4. I have decided that August simply put the cute little kitten on the side of the road, where he was found by a very nice person and given lots of tuna fish. Sure, that didn't exactly happen on screen, but I like my version much better.

[UNOSEZ]

Well beth didn't die.. Which I thought was gonna happen in the car, I enjoyed her... The flashbacks were ok.. Woulda rathered more interactions between ppl.. More Luke/Kate or Mary/ Beth or some other combo... Didn't need to see the Alice origin story... Pretty much figured that's how it all went down for her

[MissLucas]

Add me to the list of people confused by Mary's reaction to Beth. What exactly had she been told before she agreed to give Astro Beth (@quarks totally on board with that) an Alice Make-Over? And if she thought Astro Beth was just a random doppelgänger then why did she tell Kate that she could see what Kate had lost? I enjoyed her drunk little analysis of what had happened but her plot made little sense.

Also: if Astro Beth does not exist in this world then how could Mary get hold of her thesis? Did she carry around a copy in her tote that she had left on Kate's desk?

Those golden boy hostages were a useless bunch. Not one of them thought of helping Kate getting Astro Beth out of the car?

Alice's origin story is one of the most compelling in the whole Arrowverse - I just wish it did not feel so much like watching an episode of Criminal Minds.

Edited January 27, 2020 by MissLucas

[Lady Calypso]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

1. So, wait, now two versions of the same person can't exist on the same Earth at once? Does someone want to inform Flash? Or, for that matter, the last couple of episodes of Supergirl?

I sincerely hate this. Why CAN'T we have Beth and Alice? Right, because then they can just kill off Alice or imprison her for good. And it makes it way too easy for Kate if she had her sister back.

While, personally, I think now that it actually ups the stakes for Kate. I wasn't fond of Beth being around last week, but I'm much more on board with it now. We can still keep Alice and Beth, so I'm a bit sad if Beth ends up dying (because let's be real, we know Alice will be the surviving doppelganger). 

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Also: if Astro Beth does not exist in this world then how could Mary get hold of her thesis? Did she carry around a copy in her tote that she had left on Kate's desk?

I'm assuming this. Maybe, before Beth was dropped in Earth Prime, she was on her way to submit her thesis. She did say that she had been overseas for the semester, so she was likely on her way home when Crisis happened.

I, too, am perplexed as to what Mary actually knows. Because if she knows about Crisis and Beth being from another Earth from another multiverse, why not tell her about Kate being Batwoman? It makes more sense than Mary believing that Kate somehow guessed this multiverse thing correctly. They need to clarify to me what Mary actually knows. 

That being said...the four of them (Luke, Beth, Mary, and Kate) are the dream team for me. All four had great chemistry in the final scene together. Imagine Mary and Beth as friends, and Beth and Luke working together. They really sold me on the idea of Beth on Team Batwoman, and it actually upsets me a bit that they're likely taking that away. 

This episode also proved to me that I don't need Sophie on this show. I could essentially ignore her scenes with Alice and just focus on Alice's backstory, and I was perfectly fine. I don't even hate the actress, but she doesn't seem to be working. They just need to incorporate her better because right now, she's a hit or miss type of character. I think that shows like this work better when everyone's involved in the team aspect. I know, once Sophie joins Team Batwoman for good, that she'll be a much better character for it. So...do it. 

 

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Those golden boy hostages were a useless bunch. Not one of them thought of helping Kate getting Astro Beth out of the car?

Yeah, that was bullshit.  Could have at least had them come back, and Kate either tell them to get away (not wanting them to die if the car explodes) or Kate tells them to find something to help pry open the metal.  Heck, they could have had one of them get cut, and the other one have to apply pressure to the cut.  Do something to make them look like they tried something.

I was expecting them to help Kate, and afterwards say something like "Your secret's safe with us, Batwoman."

I liked that Kate not only got a Beth back, but on her birthday she also knows that more and more of Gotham is seeing her as a beacon of hope.

Let Mary in on the secret.  Kate's Bat Family needs to be more than her and Luke, bring Mary in.

[Featherhat]

Yeah, Mary was awesome in this but what does she actually know? She was freaking out that Beth looked like Alice because the last time she looked into those eyes they had poisoned her mother but also accepted it was a unknown "miracle" until she read Beth's extremely convenient multiverse thesis and drunkenly got the whole of COIE right? She really needs to be brought into the secret ASAP.

So it seems like there will be different rules for dealing with multiple live doppelgangers on different shows. Great. Because I don't think Flash or Supergirl are going to want to start with those physical repercussions. Even if that doesn't kill one of them and Astro Beth survives the bullet that Jacob just announced she was getting it won't be easy for Kate to forget that Alice is "her" Beth, especially with the renewed guilt that she couldn't save her after the crash.

If they do only keep one it probably will be Alice because she's the one driving the plot forward and Beth is great but boring. But this does solve problems of how to keep RS and her ability to chew scenery on the show without having be to be Malcolm Merlyn or all the Welles about. Beth dealt with the loss of everything she had known and her entire Earth pretty well. I guess it's too enormous to process right away. 

The flashbacks continue to be very creepy. Like Sophie, I hate what young Beth went though but whilst it explains why she's like Alice is now, it doesn't excuse it. Sophie was just there, minimal angsty relationship drama but nothing special with Alice either. Though when Alice was taunting her about being trapped in a hell of her own making, I wonder if she realised she is too. 

[Writing Wrongs]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

This episode also proved to me that I don't need Sophie on this show.

I don't either. I was hoping Alice would kill her.

[Trini]

LOL - Oliver sucks at putting the universe back together; but hey, he hasn't had as much experience with the multiverse and alternate timelines. How many more random doppelgangers are going to pop up on the different shows??

But I did like seeing another version of Beth; and how it gave Kate some hope and a glimmer of what could have been, even with the angst of thinking maybe she could have saved her Beth. And Doppel-Beth is an astrophysicist? I wonder what her Kate grew up to be?

It was really interesting to see this Beth interact with Luke and Mary, but I have to nitpick sending her in to rescue Kate apparently without any backup, or backup plan.

So Mary and Kate are back to being okay again? Not that I want them to still be cold with each other, but are we supposed to just forget all the tension from the episode before?

It was depressing, but I did like seeing some more backstory for Alice. Can we get some flashbacks for Kate and Mary too?

Sophie worked well as someone for Alice to play off of, but I also need to see her do stuff outside the Crows.

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 

... I wonder if Mouses dad is still alive? Did they grow up to kill him eventually? ..

I assume they'll tell this story eventually; maybe sooner (this season) than later?

[Auror]

The father of Mouse is a pure psychopath. He wants to help his child with his facial disfigurement. Yet it didn’t cross his mind to take him to a proper medical professional who could truly/permanently help him? Also, the very fact that he could murder an innocent little kitten shows he has zero remorse for anyone or anything. What a horrible moment. It’s quite obvious why Mouse and Beth are so delusional. I still don’t think they had to enter evil territory. Escape, which they obviously did, and then go get professional help. 

[Rushmoras]

Beth: You guys do have police, right?

Me: Well, they do, but they are as useful as the cops in Simpsons.

Makes me wonder, couldn't Kate simply yell "Supergirl, help us!" now and their predicament in the junkyard would have been over in a jiffy?

Overall, I liked the episode. Much better than SG. At least, Gotham is the same for 99 percent, unlike softly rebooting Supergirl after the Crisis. This Lex Luthor sucks.

Addendum: yeah, no, Kate should have been more seriously injured from that car crash. I'd suspend my disbelief, if she were in costume, but she was not. And all she got was some lip bruise. *Shakes head*

Edited January 28, 2020 by Rushmoras

[appositival]

When Beth first appeared I thought they should cut one of Alice's fingers off so that they could tell them apart. At least put a tracker in one of them because you know Alice is not going to be happy to have a luckier doppelgänger (even beyond the whole plot-driven melting-brain thing).

I assume that we will run through the standard CW doppelgänger playbook, and that Beth's Boyfriend in her old universe is Sophie's husband in this one.

[Bulldog]

I, too, am curious about what Mary truly knows about Beth's existence and how she came to Gotham.  It seems clear she is not in the loop about COIE.  Does she think than an Alice doppelganger just happened to randomly wander in off the street?  She seems to just accept that this Beth is Kate's sister which would be contrary to everything we've seen Mary know onscreen about Kate's history.

And, as was mentioned above, Beth doesn't seem overly broken up over her earth and all of her family/friends on that earth being destroyed / killed.

I would guess that Beth will be around for the long haul as it gives the writers a valid reason to keep the actress (who I think is the strongest on the show) around.  Alice is, IMO, by far the most compelling character on the show, but villains on these types of shows seem to have a very limited shelf life.  I could see Alice sticking around a couple of seasons, but I don't see the potential for a longterm character.  She's killed too many people onscreen for a valid redemption arc to take place.   

[Trini]

So we got Skarsten playing Alice, playing Beth, playing Beth as Alice; will we see Alice as Beth? I don't think Alice can play 'normal' for longer than a minute so probably not!

[Lantern7]

I'm kinda wishing there would be a disclaimer before the episode. "Due to the events of Crisis On Infinite Earths, refugees from wiped-out Earths have been popping up, especially on Supergirl. Why aren't you watching all the shows? What, you think you're hip jut because you're watching this and not The Simpsons?!?"

Beth's plight mirrors that of Dick Grayson and Helena Wayne in the comic Crisis. Basically, they found out they became non-entities in issue #11 because they had come from Earth-2, which had been compressed into one Earth. Imagine Beth wandering around, greeting her sister, getting choked out by said sister . . . and then she finds out that this is a reality where Kate couldn't save her, and the result was an oddly awesome villain that eats naught but tea party fare. And scenery.

Man, Mary is a cooler customer than I would have expected. Putting Beth in the Alice wardrobe and wig should have resulted in dry-heaving at best. And she can grasp the concept of a multiverse. Just deputize her, Kate! Don't even train her in beating people up, because a costume would invite heartbreak.

As for the GCPD not turning on the Bat-Signal . . . yeah, that felt a little "much." "Look, we have two people being held hostage by the Wonderland Gang. Or Menegarie. We're not saying why we don't call Batwoman. All we ask the public is to consider there are so many asinine reasons why we're not doing that beyond her liking women."

[Jenniferbug]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:04 PM, Pepper the Cat said:

Poor little kitty cat. As soon as he came on the scene I knew he’d be toast but I kept hoping he wouldn’t. 

😢

Just started watching the episode. Saw the kitten and went "nope" and turned it off. I'll read here to find out what happened in the rest of the episode, but I won't watch it for myself. 

[Rushmoras]

54 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

Just started watching the episode. Saw the kitten and went "nope" and turned it off. I'll read here to find out what happened in the rest of the episode, but I won't watch it for myself. 

LOL, what a weakling. The camera did not even show anything, it was just implied. IMO, Mouse's father should wear a top-hat, grow an evil moustache and tie damsels down to train tracks in order to fully complete his evilness ensemble.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

Just started watching the episode. Saw the kitten and went "nope" and turned it off. I'll read here to find out what happened in the rest of the episode, but I won't watch it for myself. 

Aw, I think you could still watch the rest and just skip the Alice backstory parts. Although there are plot points about Mouse and her Alice in Wonderland book that connect to the present.

[Jenniferbug]

6 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

LOL, what a weakling. The camera did not even show anything, it was just implied. IMO, Mouse's father should wear a top-hat, grow an evil moustache and tie damsels down to train tracks in order to fully complete his evilness ensemble.

Yep, I don't like even implied animal cruelty. If that makes me a weakling, so be it 🤷‍♀️ 

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Aw, I think you could still watch the rest and just skip the Alice backstory parts. Although there are plot points about Mouse and her Alice in Wonderland book that connect to the present.

I may try to fast forward through parts later. I was trying to watch while working so I couldn't really mess with the remote at the time. Maybe if I'm in the right mood later I'll give it another try!

[mrspidey]

Ok, so if being on the same earth as your doppleganger causes you serious headaches like this, why didn't this happen to Winn and Brainy over on Supergirl?

This just feels like a convoluted plot element to have a "for one to survive, the other has to die"-moment down the line...

 

Anyway, remember when Kara and Kate where on Evil-Bruce Earth and Kara gave Kate that picture of her and Beth? Kate said she wished she could've known Beth like that. Is that what made this happen? Is the Monitor rewarding the Paragons somehow? 

[possibilities]

Have they told us anything about where the rest of the gang came from, besides Alice and Mouse?

[Rushmoras]

14 hours ago, possibilities said:

Have they told us anything about where the rest of the gang came from, besides Alice and Mouse?

Why would they? They are like unnamed henchmen. The only characters of importance are Mouse and Alice. I guess, they recruited every malcontent psycho, who did not already belong to Joker's, Penguin's, Scarecrow's, Two Face's etc. crew. The more important question would be how the gang was formed.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Rushmoras

[possibilities]

To me, there's a story in how Alice and Mouse recruited them. Why would they serve those masters? It's not likely Alice or Mouse are paying them or treating them well or serving any vendettas other than their own. It's not like they're a crime syndicate that makes money, or a gang that operates for mutual protection or affiliation. As far as we've seen, Alice and Mouse are only about themselves, so how are they keeping the rest of the gang happy? It appears that Gotham has a significant number of people willing to dress in rabbit costumes and create havoc under the command of the likes of Alice and Mouse? How did those two become the leaders?

[Trini]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

To me, there's a story in how Alice and Mouse recruited them. Why would they serve those masters? It's not likely Alice or Mouse are paying them or treating them well or serving any vendettas other than their own. It's not like they're a crime syndicate that makes money, or a gang that operates for mutual protection or affiliation. As far as we've seen, Alice and Mouse are only about themselves, so how are they keeping the rest of the gang happy? It appears that Gotham has a significant number of people willing to dress in rabbit costumes and create havoc under the command of the likes of Alice and Mouse? How did those two become the leaders?

Normally I'd say 'that's just how Gotham is - the Worst', but I think you're right that they could make a story out of how they became gang leaders. I doubt it's a high priority in the writers room, though.

[Simba122504]

On 1/26/2020 at 8:55 PM, Josh371982 said:

Loving Beth and I'm praying they keep her past next episode which I dont understand why we have to wait until the 16th. I get next Sunday cause of the Super Bowl. Also Mouse reminding me again why I hate him he had a hand in keeping Beth from her family and should not be considered her "brother" and his bullshit about Kate being fine without Beth when Kate was miserable. Pissed that POS didn't fucking die. Also I wondering if they find a way for Beth and "Alice" to merge in the next episode. Beth being a part of "Alice" might get her to realize Mouse is a POS who helped keep her from her sister and Father. While like his POS father filled Her with that garbage about Kate and Their dad being happy without her 

Why are you hating a freaking child who was also a victim of abuse?  I don't understand your line of thinking.  Mouse was just as trapped as Beth was. He did not kidnap Beth or abuse her. Both were victims of his father's abuse. Talk about blaming the victim.  

[Josh371982]

13 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Why are you hating a freaking child who was also a victim of abuse?  I don't understand your line of thinking.  Mouse was just as trapped as Beth was. He did not kidnap Beth or abuse her. Both were victims of his father's abuse. Talk about blaming the victim.  

Fuck Mouse. Filling her up with Garbage how Kate and Jacob didnt care about Beth/Alice. Sounds like his POS father. I hate abusers. Beth shouldn't even be close to him. Shouldnt be blaming Kate and Jacob. She couldve told Kate she was there. Her dad is a cop. He couldve taken down her POS captor. I only blame Mouse and his Piece of shit Dad. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Josh371982

[immortalfrieza]

3 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

Fuck Mouse. Filling her up with Garbage how Kate and Jacob didnt care about Beth/Alice. Sounds like his POS father. I hate abusers. Beth shouldn't even be close to him. Shouldnt be blaming Kate and Jacob. She couldve told Kate she was there. Her dad is a cop. He couldve taken down her POS captor. I only blame Mouse and his Piece of shit Dad. 

Precisely. Mouse was just as responsible for Beth's/Alice's (got to remember to actually differentiate them now) imprisonment, torture, and subsequent madness as his father was. Mouse was abused sure, but he could've gotten both Beth/Alice and himself out of that situation at any time, and his attempts to be a "friend" to her only made the woman even more twisted than she would've been otherwise. The fact that Alice doesn't recognize this and hasn't killed him long before is stockholm syndrome.

[LisaM]

I skip through all of the Alice horror flashbacks. I don't need to see the terrible things which were done to Alice to understand why she is the way she is now. 

[rogvortex58]

Another great birthday present for Kate was seeing how much the people of Gotham supported her as Batwoman, by protesting outside of GCPD.

And she showed up to let them know that even without the signal turned on she’s gonna be there for them.

Edited February 13, 2020 by rogvortex58

[Hanahope]

I know young kids are contradictory, but one moment Beth is afraid August will ker her dad, the next she's saying her dad will kill August.  The whole bit with Beth being too afraid to tell Kate she was behind the door will always be a bit hard to accept.

I didn't get why Mouse didn't try to pretend he made the cat sounds.

But yeah, who does Mary think "Beth" is, if there isn't a multi-verse?  a weird doppleganger?

[John Potts]

Go Beth! Although we might know better, tazering Kate was perfectly understandable. Though she seemed remarkably forgiving of being assaulted like that.

Wouldn't it be easier to buy a new copy of Alice in Wonderland (even probably an old edition with the original illustrations) than test her old one? And it would have meant she didn't escape at the end. OK, she was always going to escape somehow, but you don't make have to make it easy for them.

Mouse is surprisingly competent for a minion.

Yay Luke! We need more people who say, "Less moping, more saving!" Aside from anything else, if the world is different, the crash might have left the car less precarious. Or the cable not failed. Or... well, any number of things.

Seriously, the line was "We're OK with allowing a straight Batwoman to help us, but a gay Batwoman? No sirree Bob!" Wouldn't "Jake Kane might call on Batwoman, but he was a psychopath. We do things differently" be a better line? Though it was the GCPD that were more likely to call on Batwoman, not the Crows, I think (I'd also like a clearer line on who/what the relative responsibilities of the GCPD and the Crows are, but I doubt that'll happen).

I was going to criticise Kate for voicing her wish out loud, but she wasn't there for that conversation.

On 1/27/2020 at 3:30 AM, Primal Slayer said:

Surely Beth/Alice aren't having the migraines because both can't inhabit the same Earth....right?

They seem to be running on Stargate SG-1 rules: being in the wrong Universe screws you up (it was probably quantum). I can't speak for consistency across the Arrow-verse.

On 1/27/2020 at 12:59 PM, MissLucas said:

Those golden boy hostages were a useless bunch. Not one of them thought of helping Kate getting Astro Beth out of the car?

I get they wanted our heroine to be responsible for the rescue, but I was totally expecting one of them to produce a crowbar for her to use. Aren't these the sort of folks that get kidnapped every other week in Gotham?

On 1/28/2020 at 2:38 PM, Rushmoras said:

Mouse's father should wear a top-hat, grow an evil moustache and tie damsels down to train tracks in order to fully complete his evilness ensemble.

The trouble is, train services are so unreliable these days...

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Yay, my Beth theory was right!

2. Alas poor Chessy, we hardly knew you! I think his end was inevitable but you'd have liked him to have lived a little longer. 

3. And you can see the exact moment Beth's mind snapped and she became Alice. 

4. Alt-Beth is terrific although you'd wonder that she isn't a little more freaked out that she's now in the this alternate universe?

5. Equally, how about taking her to see Jacob? 

6. You can just see in Sophie's eyes that she's had enough of Alice, from now on she's going to kill her. 

7. The burning car scene was freaky as hell, when mouse pulled the gun on alt-Beth I can't remember when I last felt such fear for a fictional character. I actually cheered out loud when Kate succeeded in rescuing her. 

8. I thought the whole Batgirl protest thing was OTT. 

9. I keep wanting an ep where they go to some sort of cosplay even and Kate finds herself surrounded by other Batwomen. Then Alice finds herself face to face with a sexy Alice in Wonderland and goes "As if!".

10. So now Alice is free but Mouse is captured? 

11. Nice to have the gang together at the end, you'd love to see this as a permanent thing. 

12. So, must one version of Beth die so that the other can live? Or will the 2 personalities somehow combine?