S03.E06: Tywysog Cymru

[dubbel zout]

I'm tired of the show portraying the queen as some cold, heartless, unfeeling robot of a mother. True, she wasn't warm and cuddly. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. She's trying her best to juggle a huge responsibility with a family. Given that the huge responsibility nearly always has to take precedence, her family suffers. Charles's personality wasn't one that could handle it that well. Sucks for him, but I also think he liked to wallow and feel sorry for himself. And Elizabeth was right that the royal family can't show any sort of opinion in public. She expressed it rather brutally, but I think Charles needed to hear it that way. It's fine for him to say Wales is a beautiful country and he enjoyed his time there, but once he starts going on about its voice and right to its language, he's getting into opinion, some of it possibly political. Doesn't matter if he's right or wrong, the royal family is supposed to be above politics. Which is what made Elizabeth's reaming of Lord Mountbatten in the previous episode so effective. She wasn't protecting Wilson specifically from a coup, she was protecting the prime minister, the democratically elected leader. 

Elizabeth doesn't get enough moments like that, IMO.

This season cements my opinion that Peter Morgan has some sort of grudge against the queen that he's been trying to work out in the series.

ETA: I totally forgot that I was really surprised there was no mention that Lord Snowden played a big part in the visual design of the Prince of Wales investiture ceremony. I don't think there was even a passing comment, was there? When Elizabeth and Philip were talking about Charles's speech, I thought she might have thrown in a line about Tony designing the coronet and the stage.

[lavenderblue]

17 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

This season cements my opinion that Peter Morgan has some sort of grudge against the queen that he's been trying to work out in the series.

I said exactly this to a friend tonight. I had vague feelings of that when he went from The Queen to eventually this, but Elizabeth's sudden hardening into Mean Unfeeling Mom cemented it.

Quote

ETA: I totally forgot that I was really surprised there was no mention that Lord Snowden played a big part in the visual design of the Prince of Wales investiture ceremony. I don't think there was even a passing comment, was there? When Elizabeth and Philip were talking about Charles's speech, I thought she might have thrown in a line about Tony designing the coronet and the stage.

The funny thing is the investiture was one of the reasons after Season 2 I was sure they'd try to maintain a relevant role for Snowden -- like, he'd otherwise have a fairly minor part but they'd revisit his ability to bring a very useful skill to the family as an artist here. I was not anticipating that instead we'd just get George and Martha and the show would almost totally forget he also did stuff besides fight with his wife (and be decent in Aberfan).

[Clanstarling]

On 11/18/2019 at 2:51 PM, rozen said:

The Queen went full "seen but not heard" in that closing argument. He so desperately refuses being a puppet that it makes her resentful at the implication that *she* is a puppet and how he fails to understand how much more leeway he already has compared to when she was being trained for the role. "No one wants to hear it" was savage, but to me it was a direct rebuttal to his accusation that she's a heartless mannequin.

I took that as a statement that no one, not even his mother, wanted to hear his opinion on anything.

On 11/19/2019 at 3:52 AM, swanpride said:

On the flip side, I think the tutor was the first one who ever offered him proper parenting. There is a difference between telling  someone "do this, because I told you so, and it is your responsibility" and telling someone "how about you consider the whole situation from the perspective of other people, understand why we you are supposed to do this and then decide what to do about it".

Royals don't experience "normal" family life, so I imagine it would be a revelation.

On 11/19/2019 at 11:15 AM, tennisgurl said:

As for how Elizabeth handled Charles and his speech, I think she was horribly cold towards him, but I think a lot of that is how she was always taught to always repress what she is really feeling and what she really feels, and still struggles with a changing Britain that sometimes wants something different from their royal family. I also think that she was upset that he was airing some family dirty laundry, even if it was something that maybe only their family would notice, as letting any kind of family drama out in the public is horribly taboo, especially involving her and the future king. Its also possible that she is annoyed that she always had to stick to her speeches and never showing any real opinions or feelings when she was a young royal, but now Charles is doing that very thing, which it sounds like went over well, and that makes her feel rather jealous and bitter.

Phillip did point out that she did, indeed, change the words to her speech when she was 21. What those changes were, I have no idea, but it isn't unusual for a parent or older person to condemn a young person for doing, or wanting to do, the same thing they did at their age.

On 11/21/2019 at 2:40 PM, Razzberry said:

I hope Welsh is faring a bit better than Irish as far as preservation goes.  My grandparents spoke Irish as a first language, but I read recently that despite massive efforts and years of compulsory classes, most Irish students just aren't proficient and it continues to be threatened with extinction.  It's very sad.   

The Queen Mum's hat -

Queen Mum's hat was shown first, and I was all "look at that terrible hat" and then the Queen came on and won the ugliest hat contest.

On 11/22/2019 at 5:19 PM, ajsnaves said:

This episode does an excellent job showing three competing facets of Elizabeth and Charles' relationship. First we see the Mother/Son relationship fighting to come through, but will always lose in the end. (Because the Crown always wins after all.) Then we see the Employer/Employee relationship with the Queen  as the boss, and Charles as the employee (in training).  She is literally training her replacement.  Which finally leads to the Sovereign and Heir.  In a very real way, Charles is a symbol of Elizabeth's mortality.  Throughout history, we see that tension between the monarch and heir. (It seems George VI and Elizabeth is an exception to that rule.)

This all comes to head in that final conversation.  She is clearly the pissed off boss, trying to teach him what his role is, and should be when he's King, completely forgetting to be his mother too. I also think she's jealous of his freedom.  She wants to go to school, and wants to act in a play. And mad that he does not realize how much freedom he has. I also think she is frustrated and at a loss trying to figure out what they want from the Royal Family today, as opposed to what was expected 10 or 20 years ago.

And that's a very human and typical parental reaction - a bit of jealousy at the freedom the kids don't know they have, whereas age has taught us how much less freedom we have than we once did.

On 11/23/2019 at 12:14 AM, lavenderblue said:

If you turn on captioning, some of the Welsh from his lessons is indeed written out on screen!

Since we always watch with captioning, I never realized they didn't  caption the Welsh. Weird. You'd miss a lot of what happened without that.

On 11/26/2019 at 1:48 PM, Blakeston said:

At the dinner, when Charles didn't know who Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was, it seemed like the faculty was primarily embarrassed that the professor hadn't taught him yet - not that they were angry with Charles.

At first, that's what I thought too, because I didn't know at that point that Gruffudd was the first Prince of Wales. After I found that out, I personally thought it was pretty offensive for Charles not to know who he was when he was going to inherit the title.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I took that as a statement that no one, not even his mother, wanted to hear his opinion on anything.

Well, I guess that sums up the Queen's feeling about the Welsh then.  They are no one.  Because they certainly seemed riveted.

[Clanstarling]

I forgot to say that the thing I most enjoyed during this episode is the relationship of Anne and Charles. It seemed a believable sibling relationship, and yet cool and non-effusive.

[mledawn]

This episode did make me feel badly for Charles. He's awkward socially and doesn't receive a lot of support from his family. He's not like QEII was as a child, at all - and because he's a male, he's given far less leeway for his anxiety and emotions in general. 

In Season One, QEII makes a mention of her resting bitch face and I think Coleman has that dialled in (quite possibly because she also has RBF). 

[Clanstarling]

26 minutes ago, mledawn said:

In Season One, QEII makes a mention of her resting bitch face and I think Coleman has that dialled in (quite possibly because she also has RBF). 

I'm not sure if she does, mainly because when she's on talk shows she's always so animated that her face is never at rest.

[mledawn]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm not sure if she does, mainly because when she's on talk shows she's always so animated that her face is never at rest.

I did debate putting "as an actor" but.,, As much as I adore OC, when she's resting...

[Mindthinkr]

Interesting to me that the Queen is not overly impressed with Wales, yet the Corgi need she so loves is from there. 

[Roseanna]

On 11/27/2019 at 6:23 PM, dubbel zout said:

I'm tired of the show portraying the queen as some cold, heartless, unfeeling robot of a mother. True, she wasn't warm and cuddly. Not everyone is, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. She's trying her best to juggle a huge responsibility with a family. Given that the huge responsibility nearly always has to take precedence, her family suffers. Charles's personality wasn't one that could handle it that well. Sucks for him, but I also think he liked to wallow and feel sorry for himself. And Elizabeth was right that the royal family can't show any sort of opinion in public. She expressed it rather brutally, but I think Charles needed to hear it that way. It's fine for him to say Wales is a beautiful country and he enjoyed his time there, but once he starts going on about its voice and right to its language, he's getting into opinion, some of it possibly political. Doesn't matter if he's right or wrong, the royal family is supposed to be above politics. 

The Queen's matter was right, but her way to say it was wrong - Charles didn't understand nor appect, but only felt that "nobody listen's to me, nobody understands me". To her defence one must add that she was hurt that her son dealt family matters in public and presented himself as a victim - although nobody probably undestood that.

Generally I think that women are criticized much more harsly than men when they put work before family - even when, as in Elizabeth's case, she has a little choice because she does a man's work but has no wife to bear and raise children.    

[albinerhawk]

I have issues with the closing scene. On an earlier episode thread (the one with the documentary), someone posted a youtube clip of actual, casual interactions between the royal family. Elizabeth was telling a funny story to Philip and Charles. Charles was cracking up throughout the story. That dynamic seems at odds to the cold interaction that happens at the end of this episode. 

One observation I did make was the constant booing from the Welsh that Charles was not Welsh yet Prince of Wales. Intriguing that this plot point comes up in the episode following Princess Alice's speech that they have no country. 

[TVForever]

After watching this episode, I totally forgive Josh O'Connor for missing pretty much the entire last season of The Durrells of Corfu to work on The Crown.

[merylinkid]

Good heavens what was that thing on Anne's head at the ceremony.

The less said about the Queen Mother's gisnt green thing and the Queen's helmet the better.

[chaifan]

Random thoughts...

I agree that Elizabeth is being portrayed much harsher this season, but I don't think it's a Claire Foy vs. Olivia Coleman thing.  It seems very clear this is writing/direction decision.  I don't know if it's to emphasize Elizabeth's, ahem, maturity, or if there's something else going on.  

I loved the Queen Mum's hat. 

Spoiler

Reminds me a bit of the hat Camilla wore with her wedding outfit, and I loved that, too.

  Elizabeth's hat, though... ugh.  I agree that somehow the original looked slightly better.  Not sure if the hat itself is different or if the real Queen's face just fit it better.  Loved Elizabeth's dress in the earlier family meeting when they were telling Charles about Wales.

I loved that Anne's room was messy, like a typical teenager.  Record player, clothes all about, etc.  I love the actress playing Anne, makes me really want to see more of her.

The actor who plays Charles is new to me, and I love the portrayal. 

I love the Queen's train.  We saw it in the previous episode, too. 

I wonder how much of these scenes were true:  pretty much everything with the tutor - is he a real person, totally made up, an amalgamation of real people?  If real, did he really invite Charles to his home, and by the end scene it seems like it happened more than once because the kid seemed pretty familiar with him?  Was Charles really in the theater in college?  Was he actually good in theater in college?  Did the story about the tutor's home village play a part in Charles' environmental work later in life? 

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I love the Queen's train.  We saw it in the previous episode, too. 

The Queen's private train car looked so cozy and comfortable to me - I wanted to curl up in that nice looking bed and have a nap!

[AnnaBaptist]

I remember seeing a documentary about the Queen and Prince Charles many years ago. I recall they talked about the rehearsal for the event, and how they kept laughing when the Queen put the crown on his head. They certainly went the opposite direction as far as emotions displayed in the episode!

Josh O'Connor was outstanding as Prince Charles. While he doesn't look like Charles, he got his mannerisms down perfectly, and he added that slightly stooped posture to give him a more hangdog demeanor. 

One question, though: Prince Charles is left-handed, and in the scene where he is eating dinner at his tutor's house, he uses his left hand to eat his soup. In the scene where he revises the speech, however, he uses his right hand to write. Was Charles forced to write with his right hand as a child, or is this an error by the show? Has anyone seen a video clip of Charles signing anything and noticed which hand he used?

ETA: I found a photo of him writing his signature. He does write with his right hand!

Edited December 7, 2019 by AnnaBaptist
Found answer to my question

[meep.meep]

On 11/19/2019 at 11:49 AM, Umbelina said:

Many of my guesses too here, but I'm annoyed that we have to guess, annoyed with the writing, and annoyed with Colman's ONE look and ONE tone of voice (in this case, her angry one) that didn't offer any subtext or feeling to express what was unwritten.  Since that was something I feel Foy excelled at?  It was jarring.

Also, Elizabeth was trained with KINDNESS, both from her father and from her grandmother.  Even her mother was never that harsh with her, and Winston guided her as well.  She offered no insight to Charles, no "reasons" and she certainly shared none of those feelings with him about how difficult it was for her as well, which could have helped him enormously, both as a person and as future King.  As played, it's just making me hate QEII, and I've never felt that way before this season.

Maybe this will be made clear by watching all the episodes, but at the actual investiture ceremony, Elizabeth seemed furious with Charles, and that was before he made his speech.  Why?  IRL I think she seemed actually proud of him.  Is that a Coleman acting choice?

The rest of the cast sure did a great job with all the lines in Welsh.  Made me wonder how many were actually fluent and how many had had the "Charles" experience of learning it.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Maybe this will be made clear by watching all the episodes, but at the actual investiture ceremony, Elizabeth seemed furious with Charles, and that was before he made his speech.  Why?  IRL I think she seemed actually proud of him.  Is that a Coleman acting choice?

The rest of the cast sure did a great job with all the lines in Welsh.  Made me wonder how many were actually fluent and how many had had the "Charles" experience of learning it.

I feel like there was a scene cut that would have established why Elizabeth was furious with Charles.  It seems an odd acting choice by Coleman for the investiture scene based on what we saw alone.  

[VCRTracking]

When Olivia Colman's casting was first announced I wondered, because she always seems so warm and approachable that she could be as cold and intimidating with those soft brown eyes as well that Claire Foy was with her blue ones. The answer is yes, yes she can.

[Llywela]

On 11/21/2019 at 5:35 AM, Cheezwiz said:

I have Welsh heritage as well, so I enjoyed the bits with the language, and hearing it spoken throughout the episode. But good Gawd, you couldn't ask for a wackier language - not quite enough vowels (except 'y') and a surplus of double-consonants! Difficult pronunciation, and as typical with Celtic languages, NOTHING sounds anything like the way it's spelled! 

The Welsh language actually has more vowels than English does and everything is pronounced the way it is spelled - Welsh phonetics are way more consistent than English. The trick is to remember that it is a different language from a completely different root and therefore, naturally, does not use English phonetics. Once you know Welsh phonetics and understand the Welsh alphabet, pronunciation is straightforward because it is completely consistent.

There is a lot I could say about English-Welsh relations and how they are portrayed here, but it's quite a political subject so probably best I keep quiet!

[Cheezwiz]

16 hours ago, Llywela said:

Once you know Welsh phonetics and understand the Welsh alphabet, pronunciation is straightforward because it is completely consistent.

I think that's the tricky part for most native English speakers. Two ff's or ll's together make a certain sounds that are tough to guess just by reading, and there are certain sounds in Welsh somewhere in the middle between an 's' 'l' & 'th' sound that are reeally difficult for newbies to replicate without a ton of practice.

I definitely liked the consistent nature of the language from the teeny bit I learned:  there are no soft 'c' sounds in Welsh, so whenever you see the letter 'c' it will always have a hard 'k' sound. The pretty Welsh name for girls "Cerys" sounds like "Karis". Same thing for the letter 'g' always hard never soft. Easy to remember!

Maybe I'll try re-watching Charles's lessons with closed-captioning on just for fun.

[Uruk]

Hi forum. Is that Shakespeare in the closing lines? Which of Shakespeare's plays? 

[Roseanna]

On 12/7/2019 at 9:44 PM, meep.meep said:

Maybe this will be made clear by watching all the episodes, but at the actual investiture ceremony, Elizabeth seemed furious with Charles, and that was before he made his speech.  Why? 

On 12/7/2019 at 10:59 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like there was a scene cut that would have established why Elizabeth was furious with Charles.  It seems an odd acting choice by Coleman for the investiture scene based on what we saw alone.  

I didn't see her furious but impersonal, that is, just the way the real Elizabeth behaves in public.

So Colman was quite right. Already her scene showed the difference of her character and that of Charles well.

(The alternative explanation: in S1 Elizabeth says to Philip, that when she doesn't smile, she seems angry.)

[Pallas]

8 hours ago, Uruk said:

Hi forum. Is that Shakespeare in the closing lines? Which of Shakespeare's plays? 

Richard II, also quoted in the closing lines of season 2. Apt as the quotes are, Peter Morgan may also be hinting that thwarted protagonists such as Richard can generate great dramatic literature. Especially if they are twice-cursed: by the conflict between their nature and their circumstances, and by self-awareness -- just enough but not enough.

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I didn't see her furious but impersonal, that is, just the way the real Elizabeth behaves in public.

So Colman was quite right. Already her scene showed the difference of her character and that of Charles well.

(The alternative explanation: in S1 Elizabeth says to Philip, that when she doesn't smile, she seems angry.)

Part of the problem for me is that I saw on some other website breaking down this season that photographic evidence exists of the actual Elizabeth and Charles sharing a laugh during this ceremony.  I wish I could remember which one to link it.  I know this is a fictional show about real people but I do feel that Peter Morgan and the writers are not doing a great job of spinning their fiction against documented events.  They aren't laying the necessary groundwork before the narrative lands firmly into the realm of fiction. 

One thing I find fascinating about Elizabeth is how she can go from a loving wife/mother/grandmother to Her Majesty the Queen at the drop of a hat.  There are enough photographs out there showing Elizabeth is an actual human being with human emotions that were taken at public events.  That dichotomy is what should be driving the story.  I saw some of it in the fight between Elizabeth and Charles at the end of this episode.  That scene was clunky as hell, but the message Elizabeth was giving Charles was interesting. 

[Crs97]

I don’t mind a dramatization, but making complete fiction out of real people and events bothers me.  I don’t know if I can continue another season.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I don’t mind a dramatization, but making complete fiction out of real people and events bothers me.  I don’t know if I can continue another season.

I get past it thinking about the characters as characters, and not the real people. Just as I would any historical drama, which are rarely known for their veracity. Then I look up the details if I'm interested.

[paramitch]

I enjoyed this episode, and felt real empathy for Charles, but I continue to argue that Peter Morgan has little actual interest in exploring the Queen fairly as a character at all. I echo several others here as being bothered by the blatant fictions.

Consistently, most of his sympathy and interest has been in the exploration of Philip, Churchill, Margaret, Charles, et al. The only reason I felt Elizabeth rose above this as a character in seasons 1 and 2 was due to the incredible work of Claire Foy, who managed to show real pain, emotion or suffering with a raised eyebrow or a blink.

Now in season 3, I do not think he likes Elizabeth herself or finds her interesting, and I feel like he's saddled poor wonderful Olivia Colman with a chilly cardboard facsimile whenever it suits him. The final scene here was yet another example of a situation in which he inserts a wholly overly frosty, hateful Elizabeth with zero historical reason to do so.

Coming on top of her recent admission to the PM that "something is wrong with me" (i.e., she could not 'feel' or 'cry', a ridiculous assumption -- not least because she was (1) tearing up during the admission and (2) instantly cried at the end of the episode), this just feels like more of Peter Morgan forcing a specific view of Elizabeth on us. And I'm not a huge fan of Elizabeth or the royal family by any means -- but what bothers me so much is that it is simply not what history tells us.

Elizabeth was palpably affectionate with Charles, and even early in this episode, we saw that she knew how the transfer would hurt him. I would have been so much happier if she had demonstrated even basic appreciation for his performance (and shown the historical affection we can see on film), versus the ice queen we got here.

But, well, I love this show, but this is my problem with Peter Morgan. He has an agenda, and the tragedy for me is, the one character who will have gone unexplored in any fair way will have been the wearer of the crown herself.

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Consistently, most of his sympathy and interest has been in the exploration of Philip, Churchill, Margaret, Charles, et al. The only reason I felt Elizabeth rose above this as a character in seasons 1 and 2 was due to the incredible work of Claire Foy, who managed to show real pain, emotion or suffering with a raised eyebrow or a blink.

I've been saying this for a while and I agree.  Foy could do more with her breathing than many actors can do with a long monologue.  She's so underestimated IMO, and I don't know why.  Because she's pretty or relatively young?  

With Foy I could feel every emotion she had, and words were not required, I always knew what her inner monologue was, in spite of the "stiff upper lip" or "show" The Queen was putting on.  With Colman?  NOTHING.  More below.

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Now in season 3, I do not think he likes Elizabeth herself or finds her interesting, and I feel like he's saddled poor wonderful Olivia Colman with a chilly cardboard facsimile whenever it suits him. The final scene here was yet another example of a situation in which he inserts a wholly overly frosty, hateful Elizabeth with zero historical reason to do so.

Olivia Colman is a fabulous actress, so I don't really blame her for this one-note, two expressions, version of The Queen.  I know she's CAPABLE of showing an inner self, or complicated emotions, conflict between heart and duty, but we got nothing!  Just that somewhat maniacal stare, the endless frowning, and coldness.  It was boring and made me hate our lead character.

So are they hacking up her performance in editing, or did the writing not give her more to play?  What the hell happened here?  It's possible it was deliberate as well, in prep for next season's obvious main story-lines, with The Queen continuing on her evil heartless stony tone deaf way.

Blech. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Umbelina

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/27/2019 at 10:23 AM, dubbel zout said:

This season cements my opinion that Peter Morgan has some sort of grudge against the queen that he's been trying to work out in the series.

Watching that last scene, I actually felt it was defamatory. Not in the sense that Elizabeth can sue Morgan, but for all intents and purposes it will forever damage the queen's reputation. I do appreciate the justifications that some here have provided for her conduct in that scene with Charles; they help temper the impression I got from that scene that she truly is, in her personal life, The Wicked Queen.

The Crown will be around longer than Elizabeth herself, and continuing to inform people's understanding of her for years to come. I just hope Morgan has some basis for portraying her that way, because if he doesn't, the reputation-murder is inexcusable.

Of course, the sin may not be Morgan's, but Colman's or the director's. There were probably a dozen ways to play the lines he wrote; we saw the brutal choice.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

The Crown will be around longer than Elizabeth herself, and continuing to inform people's understanding of her for years to come. I just hope Morgan has some basis for portraying her that way, because if he doesn't, the reputation-murder is inexcusable.

Of course, the sin may not be Morgan's, but Colman's or the director's. There were probably a dozen ways to play the lines he wrote; we saw the brutal choice.

It was such a poorly done scene that I too wonder if it was Colman, Morgan, or the editor.  They gave Colman PLENTY of alone time to do the kind of thing Foy has always done to convey underlying emotions, but we got NOTHING but the same frown and same stare.  No quick intake of breath, no slumped shoulders indicating stress after Charles left, no flicker of an eye, no shaking hands...just nothing.

As far as the hatchet job on Elizabeth?  I agree with you.  I think it's to set up Charles as victim/hero for the obvious stuff that is to come.  Morgan, IMO, made a choice to support the FUTURE monarch rather than the current monarch.  I really hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it read to me.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Umbelina
frown

[Ohiopirate02]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It was such a poorly done scene that I too wonder if it was Colman, Morgan, or the editor.  They gave Colman PLENTY of alone time to do the kind of thing Foy has always done to convey underlying emotions, but we got NOTHING but the same from and same stare.  No quick intake of breath, no slumped shoulders indicating stress after Charles left, no flicker of an eye, no shaking hands...just nothing.

As far as the hatchet job on Elizabeth?  I agree with you.  I think it's to set up Charles as victim/hero for the obvious stuff that is to come.  Morgan, IMO, made a choice to support the FUTURE monarch rather than the current monarch.  I really hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it read to me.

I have seen Olivia Coleman in so many diverse roles that she has nailed.  This one not so much.  I have to think that it is the direction and editing that is causing her to look so one dimensional as Elizabeth.   Sometimes the talent and the character shone through,  but overall she's done better work.

[CeeBeeGee]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:04 PM, Razzberry said:

Ugliest Hat Ever goes to Elizabeth.  It looks like a football helmet.  They sure are making her drab and dowdy this season.  She's a better dresser now at 90, with her colorful outfits.

HIDEOUS hat. Elizabeth's couture was fully hideous in the dark days of the late '60s, '70s and '80s. She really looks super smart nowadays.

On 11/26/2019 at 5:05 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

One thing that I didn't get in this episode is how IMHO rudely the college treated Charles.  I would have expected them to provide a student ambassador to welcome Charles to the campus, show him around, get a bite to eat together, etc.  Not all of the students would have been Welsh Nationalists who would sooner spit on Charles than shake his hand.  I also felt the same way last season with Charles at Gordonstoun.  Yes, kids can be bullies, but Charles is the future king.  Wouldn't there be at least one student who can see that and want to cozy up to him.  I don't believe that the entire student body of the university would be hostile towards Charles.

I've read that, at Gordonstoun at least, there was strong aversion among the student body to being seem to "suck up" to the future king. He was in a tough position--the perversity was that any kid who reached out to him was by definition seen as a suck-up and therefore not desirable.

You'd think by university they would've gotten over that though.

On 12/4/2019 at 11:12 PM, chaifan said:

Random thoughts...

I agree that Elizabeth is being portrayed much harsher this season, but I don't think it's a Claire Foy vs. Olivia Coleman thing.  It seems very clear this is writing/direction decision.  I don't know if it's to emphasize Elizabeth's, ahem, maturity, or if there's something else going on.  

I loved the Queen Mum's hat. 

  Reveal spoiler

Reminds me a bit of the hat Camilla wore with her wedding outfit, and I loved that, too.

Was Charles really in the theater in college?  Was he actually good in theater in college?  Did the story about the tutor's home village play a part in Charles' environmental work later in life? 

Yes, Charles did theater--he performed at Gordonstoun as well. I know he played Macbeth at one point.

On 12/10/2019 at 1:36 AM, Uruk said:

Hi forum. Is that Shakespeare in the closing lines? Which of Shakespeare's plays? 

Richard II, a very meta play about the nature of being a king (appropriately since Richard II was deposed).

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

HIDEOUS hat. Elizabeth's couture was fully hideous in the dark days of the late '60s, '70s and '80s. She really looks super smart nowadays.

Does she? Or do we just have different standards for very old women? I mean, I think she looks good too - but I'm not sure (hideous hats excepting) that her clothing looks all that different. Then again, I'm no fashionista, so I'm probably not the right one to judge.

[miamama]

On 12/12/2019 at 4:53 PM, Umbelina said:

It was such a poorly done scene that I too wonder if it was Colman, Morgan, or the editor.  They gave Colman PLENTY of alone time to do the kind of thing Foy has always done to convey underlying emotions, but we got NOTHING but the same frown and same stare.  No quick intake of breath, no slumped shoulders indicating stress after Charles left, no flicker of an eye, no shaking hands...just nothing.

Exactly. The camera stayed with ER after Charles left. She was looking at herself in the mirror (if I recall correctly) and frowned hard. I think she was supposed to appear conflicted? Sad? Something other than ice cold. Likewise when Philip earlier described Charles as a "very different horse" the camera held on her for a few beats. But she just frowned more.

In some defence of Olivia, the show has defined her relationship with her firstborn as very cold. In earlier seasons someone talked about her "coolness" with the child/heir who reminds her of her mortality. And in this episode Charles asked Anne why their mother isn't "cold and vile" with her as she is with him. So, yes, she is being directed to play it that way with him. But she must also be getting direction (and she is clearly being given moments on screen) to show the nuance Claire Foy showed.

I found myself wishing it were Claire in that final mother-son scene opposite Josh. When he said "mummy, I have a voice" it broke my heart. He was her child in that moment, not her heir. Foy would have displayed the Queen's anguish because she was unable to respond as "mummy" but instead as monarch because THAT is the tragedy of their relationship.

I don't think we're supposed to hate her and pity Charles in some sort of set up of Charles as hero. I think we're supposed to sympathize with them both because of their lot in life as inheritors and protectors of the Crown (just as we were to sympathize with both Philip and Charles in the Gordonston episode last season). 

[dubbel zout]

Foy's QEII dealt with Charles as a young boy, whereas Colman's is dealing with him as a young adult and now "official" heir. The relationship is going to be different.

I don't prefer Foy over Colman—I think they're both great—but I'm always enraged at how Colman has been wasted in the role.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Foy's QEII dealt with Charles as a young boy, whereas Colman's is dealing with him as a young adult and now "official" heir. The relationship is going to be different.

I don't prefer Foy over Colman—I think they're both great—but I'm always enraged at how Colman has been wasted in the role.

I BY FAR prefer Foy as QEII, and I adore Colman normally.

There is no there there with Colman.  It's always the same look, the same stare, the same frown (OK, 83% of the time.)  I kept waiting and waiting for Colman's brilliance, but they either edited it out, or directed her not to show it, or she just doesn't have it.

It doesn't matter that he's an adult, she could have at least showed that the conversation stressed her out, or given us MORE anger, or some kind of shift in her emotions during the conversation, or while waiting him, or after he left.  It was the same damn stare and frown she's had on for the majority of the season, no difference, no nuance, NOTHING.

Vastly disappointing, and I can't believe she got a nomination for this, and that the actor playing Charles, who excelled, did not.  

[Blakeston]

On 12/12/2019 at 4:53 PM, Umbelina said:

It was such a poorly done scene that I too wonder if it was Colman, Morgan, or the editor.  They gave Colman PLENTY of alone time to do the kind of thing Foy has always done to convey underlying emotions, but we got NOTHING but the same frown and same stare.  No quick intake of breath, no slumped shoulders indicating stress after Charles left, no flicker of an eye, no shaking hands...just nothing.

As far as the hatchet job on Elizabeth?  I agree with you.  I think it's to set up Charles as victim/hero for the obvious stuff that is to come.  Morgan, IMO, made a choice to support the FUTURE monarch rather than the current monarch.  I really hope I'm wrong, but that's the way it read to me.

I blame the direction. I really think the direction team intentionally did everything they could to drain all signs of humanity out of Colman's performance. They made her listen to financial news on an earpiece so that she'd look more "bored." They also played up the idea that she has no feelings for Charles beyond coldness and disappointment. Those were very strange choices, IMO.

[Crs97]

I blame a lot of things.  On Graham Norton, Olivia said she was told the queen is supposed to be stoic but her face shows every emotion so they made her listen to shipping forecasts so she would stop reacting.  I can’t imagine trying to act a scene with someone who is actively not listening to me.  It also shouldn’t be an all or nothing plan.  Olivia said she does no research for a role and couldn’t learn how the queen walked.  I can understand their excitement in casting an award-winning actress, but I think it was a bad choice.  A great actress isn’t great for every role.

[PeterPirate]

Here is the song, "Carlo", that plays during the ending credits.

 

I've a little friend who lives in Buckingham Palace
And Carlo Windsor is his name
Last time I went to knock on his door
His Mother answered, and she told me

Oh Carlo, Carlo, Carlo's playing polo today, today
Carlo, Carlo, Carlo's playing polo with daddy, daddy
Join in the song, peoples old and young
Finally we have a "prince" in the land of song

 

[AnnieBananie]

An excellent episode, and to echo everyone, extra claps for Josh O'Connor.

If you don't follow The Fug Girls, you should - they do excellent recaps, and even shared some snaps from the filming of this episode. Just contrast Colman in real life with how dour QEII is. (And it looks like the costumers did quite well recreating Anne's and the Queen Mother's outfits!)

[chocolatine]

On 11/21/2019 at 12:30 PM, Umbelina said:

I think liking Charles and disliking the Queen (her coldness, especially towards Charles) has been the entire point of most of season 3.

To me, it's not only heavy handed, it's distasteful.

I just finished S3 (I'm not a regular Netflix customer, but they gave me a free month), and the Queen's treatment of Charles bothered me as well. I don't actually like Charles, I agree that he's whiny and entitled, but so are Philip and Margaret, and she cuts them a lot of slack. Does she have higher standards for Charles because he's going to be king? Does she think that by giving him tough love he'll be better prepared than she was when she first became queen?

[kassygreene]

Traditionally the British sovereign and heir apparent do not get along - the only example to the contrary that I can come up with back to the Glorious Revolution is Edward VII & George V.

[PeterPirate]

In the episode, Anne says she wishes Elizabeth would be as mean to her as she is to Charles, because it would show she had "significance".  

[hcw80]

On 11/26/2019 at 4:48 PM, Blakeston said:

The more I think about it, the more I think that the professor was a dick.

So Charles actually smiles once, while doing tongue-twisters in English, and the professor decides that means Charles isn't taking Welsh seriously?

And he's really going to hold it against Charles that he hasn't entered the library, when he doesn't even speak Welsh yet? He probably would have explored the campus more if people weren't so hostile toward him.

At the dinner, when Charles didn't know who Llywelyn ap Gruffudd was, it seemed like the faculty was primarily embarrassed that the professor hadn't taught him yet - not that they were angry with Charles.

Oh, yeah.   That was my reaction too.  I am a retired teacher and I know that if my students didn't know the basics, it was my fault.  Granted, I worked with young children not adults, but I think Charles was willing to learn if guided.  What about giving him a TA or a grad student to show him around if the prof was too busy?    It seemed to me, the prof plopped Charles in the language lab and walked away.  Before I got my teaching certificate in Texas I had to take two Texas history courses.  You would think they would have put Charles through at least the Intro to Welsh History course as being the Prince of a nation  is a bit higher up the ladder then being a kindergarten teacher in a small town.  

[Umbelina]

I loved that the teacher didn't bow and scrape to the Crown representative.  Why on earth should he?  He walked the line carefully, as Welch have done forever, but his feelings, IMO, were completely understandable, while he kept his behavior appropriate, though forced.

In the end, it was the best possible way to "teach" Charles.  The best for him, and the best for Wales, and certainly the best for the integrity of the teacher.  Charles worked harder, went beyond to try to actually understand a small bit of the country he would one day "rule" and at least some of that painful history.

If the teacher had been completely deferential and only stuck to the content of learning a bit of the Welch language?  Both Charles and Wales would have gained almost nothing, just a future King who could manage a few Welch words.  

[Growsonwalls]

The Welsh professor reminds me of when I first started teaching, I got all sorts of grizzled veteran teacher advice. "Don't smile until June." "Never be nice to the kids -- never care." "You must be as cold and hard as a stone, otherwise they'll eat you alive." I can't say these teachers were bad people, but it's definitely an old-fashioned way of teaching that I think has thankfully gone out of favor. 

As for the Queen's speech to Charles at the end, wow, that was cold. I kind of wonder if it's the natural order of things that monarchs grow to dislike their heirs. Victoria actively detested her own kids, as did George V. Elizabeth disliked Charles. It's sort of this whole "I see the future without me" and also a dash of "my heir can't be as great as me" and a dollop of "the only type of love heirs need is tough love." 

[Camera One]

At this point, this show is hardly about Elizabeth anymore.  She grows more one-dimensional with every episode it seems.  I didn't see any nuance in her angry argument with Charles at the end.  She might as well have worn a witch's hat for good measure. 

The worst part is, there is no reason for this sudden change to full-on Ice Queen, except looking like she aged 20 years in a month.  In the early scene, Elizabeth seemed to understand how much Cambridge meant to Charles when speaking to the Prime Minister, but then she tells Charles that he must go to Wales in the most impersonal way possible in front of the entire family.  Will the real Elizabeth please stand up?  You don't simply have a multifacted character by making her act in random contrary ways every time you see her.

The actor who played Charles was very engaging, making for a diverting episode.  I could feel for him the same way I felt for Younger Elizabeth when the show first started.  Decisions were made for them, away from what made them happiest and taking away their true selves, which is sad.  But in both cases, they realized how they could accept their situation and use it to make a difference.

The aerial shots of Wales were beautiful.  In that sense, the whole Charles in Wales story was nice escapism.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Camera One

[Growsonwalls]

On 1/24/2021 at 2:55 AM, Camera One said:

At this point, this show is hardly about Elizabeth anymore.  She grows more one-dimensional with every episode it seems.  I didn't see any nuance in her angry argument with Charles at the end.  She might as well have worn a witch's hat for good measure. 

The worst part is, there is no reason for this sudden change to full-on Ice Queen, except looking like she aged 20 years in a month.  In the early scene, Elizabeth seemed to understand how much Cambridge meant to Charles when speaking to the Prime Minister, but then she tells Charles that he must go to Wales in the most impersonal way possible in front of the entire family.  Will the real Elizabeth please stand up?  You don't simply have a multifacted character by making her act in random contrary ways every time you see her.

I think they are asking Olivia Colman to play outside her emotional comfort zone. The Mommie Dearest speech she gave to Charles at the end wasn't convincing because Olivia Colman can't really pull off the veins-of-ice personality. 

I also think that at this point the "Elizabeth is a super-crappy mother" storyline has been played out. There's no growth in her relationship with her kids and good shows thrive on growing, evolving relationships. 

[Macbeth]

I can see why the Queen was upset with him.  They can't voice political views.

And he attacked her by saying that, unlike her, he had character and a heart.