S39.E06: Suck It Up Buttercup

[nlkm9]

48 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I did not see Jack grovelling nor did I see Jamal browbeating him. I saw two men having a civil, intelligent, open-minded conversation where nobody raised their voice, used aggressive language or got angry.  

As long as the conversation went jamals way, which it did it was civil. 
i also thought Elaine announced her advantage a bit early but glad it all worked out .

aaron is very good looking but yuk on personality .

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

As long as the conversation went jamals way, which it did it was civil. 
i also thought Elaine announced her advantage a bit early but glad it all worked out .

aaron is very good looking but yuk on personality .

Good point.  Jack didn't push back on anything Jamal said.  If he had, who knows how civil it would have been.

I thought Elaine played it right.  She needed to tell the other 3 Old Lairos early, so she could get them on board to stick together, knowing they had the block-a-vote on their side.  

At tribal council, I also thought her timing was pretty good.  She created a lot of drama for us, and I don't think waiting any longer would have served any purpose.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

Jamal was 100% calm and kind about it and yet still some have an issue with his response.  It seems like the only perfect response for some is "no response".  So, people deal with these microaggressions all day and pretty much say nothing.  That's reality.

I had a boss once who would make racist comments or "jokes" frequently about one of my coworkers.  I'm very close with that coworker so I expressed my sympathy and anger towards him about it.  I said, doesn't this stuff make you mad?  His response was, if I got mad about stuff like that, I would be a ball of rage every day of my life.  Also, I mean at the workplace we don't really have a choice.  

Jamal is in a similar situation.  He's stuck on an island with these people.  I thought he handled it perfectly, and yet I wouldn't have been mad if he flew off the handle, either.  Unfortunately a lot of people walk through life with people seeing them as a label first instead of just a person.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Birnam Wood]

Tommy, to me, sounds exactly like Frank from Murphy Brown. It’s taken me a month to work this out, and now I CANNOT UNHEAR IT.

[princelina]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jamal was 100% calm and kind about it and yet still some have an issue with his response.  It seems like the only perfect response for some is "no response".  So, people deal with these microaggressions all day and pretty much say nothing.  That's reality.

I had a boss once who would make racist comments or "jokes" frequently about one of my coworkers.  I'm very close with that coworker so I expressed my sympathy and anger towards him about it.  I said, doesn't this stuff make you mad?  His response was, if I got mad about stuff like that, I would be a ball of rage every day of my life.  Also, I mean at the workplace we don't really have a choice.  

Jamal is in a similar situation.  He's stuck on an island with these people.  I thought he handled it perfectly, and yet I wouldn't have been mad if he flew off the handle, either.  Unfortunately a lot of people walk through life with people seeing them as a label first instead of just a person.

This is my issue, which I haven't seen mentioned:  when Jack made his stupid comment, Jamal's initial response was something along the lines of, "This always happens with white people" or something like that.  If you dislike stereotypes, don't respond with stereotyping. I was left with the impression that Jack was trying to joke with a guy he thought of as a friend, whereas Jamal was waiting for someone (even a friend) to be offensive.  That being said, they resolved it well together and I hope not to see it lingering in future episodes 🙂 

[nlkm9]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Jamal was 100% calm and kind about it and yet still some have an issue with his response.  It seems like the only perfect response for some is "no response".  So, people deal with these microaggressions all day and pretty much say nothing.  That's reality.

I had a boss once who would make racist comments or "jokes" frequently about one of my coworkers.  I'm very close with that coworker so I expressed my sympathy and anger towards him about it.  I said, doesn't this stuff make you mad?  His response was, if I got mad about stuff like that, I would be a ball of rage every day of my life.  Also, I mean at the workplace we don't really have a choice.  

Jamal is in a similar situation.  He's stuck on an island with these people.  I thought he handled it perfectly, and yet I wouldn't have been mad if he flew off the handle, either.  Unfortunately a lot of people walk through life with people seeing them as a label first instead of just a person.

I don’t think calling his buff a doorag was racist, but if it was to Jamal, then he got his apology. Maybe we all learned a lesson , be careful, super careful with your words, because a word that  means nothing in one area might be very sensitive to another 

[GenerationX]

Random thoughts on episode 6 - "Survivor Family Rob inson":

• Great to see Rob building the ultimate shelter, but no chance either of them are actually sleeping there
• The Vote Block took quite the interesting route to camp
• Someone got voted out, but I'm not sure if it was a Survivor or a random stand-in.

[truthaboutluv]

47 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

I don’t think calling his buff a doorag was racist,

I walked away from this conversation last night because I could tell where it was going to go and I frankly wanted no part of it. But I do just want to clear up one thing, because I saw another comment regarding Jack being seen as a racist is unfair or something to that effect.

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I know for me personally, I never called Jack a racist for his comment and I certainly don't think he is. And that I think is where these discussions get a bit muddled and there's a lot of miscommunication. 

The fact is you can say something racially insensitive without being a racist. And the fact of the matter is many of us are guilty of saying or maybe even doing something racially insensitive at some point in our lives. And yes in many cases, doing so subconsciously, without meaning to. And that's where healthy and mature dialogue is necessary and if people can have that healthy and mature dialogue, growth and change happens. 

But unfortunately that's often not the case because of the knee-jerk reaction of, "how dare you think I'm a racist". And that's exactly what Jamal said most moved and impressed him about Jack's response. That Jack didn't do that. He listened to Jamal's feelings, they talked about it, he didn't get defensive, Jamal explained why even though Jack may not have meant it in a hurtful way, he was hurt and they were good. I think that's great.

It's always great when people can disagree or have hurt feelings and talk it out and come out of it better. At no point did I suddenly hate or think Jack is some awful racist. I just think he said something that to someone else, based on that person's experience, was racially insensitive to them.

Because yes, another black guy in another season might not have cared about the comment and feel any way about it. And that's valid too. Because that's this person's experience and feelings. But Jamal was bothered, was offended and said why he was and Jack to his credit said, "okay, I hear you and I'm sorry I made you feel that way". I say kudos to them both.

Edited November 1, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Eolivet]

Survivor having the racial sensitivity conversation it should've had last season when Joe said ignorant, racially insensitive things in Julia's presence, but that was swept under the carpet, because: Joe. ::sips tea::

[Porkchop]

On a lighter note, I searched for this info about Boston Rob, which explains why my heart belongs to him: 

In 2000, he woke up the day of the Boston Marathon and decided to run it as an unofficial entry with absolutely no training. He stopped along the way to eat burgers and drink beer. He ended up walking the last 13 miles of the race and finished in 6 hours and 20 minutes. He couldn't walk for three days afterwards.

What a guy!

[SVNBob]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:10 PM, truthaboutluv said:

That said, what I don't get is why Jason and company didn't just wreak havoc at tribal when Elaine showed her advantage. I know they wanted to believe the plan was still on but at that point, with the power completely in the other's side hand, they had no way of knowing this. Especially as Jason himself commented on how quickly and easily it was for Aaron to be willing to throw one of his own under the bus.

According to Jason's exit interviews, they kinda did.   As has been said, apparently the oldVokai plan was to get oldLairo to split their votes.   Aaron and Missy would vote Elaine, as apparently would oldVokai.  Then those 4 would vote in a unified block for a different target.  The final vote would be 4-2-2, with Aaron the one going home.

But when Elaine pulled out the Vote Blocker, their 4 suddenly went down to 3.  That's when the Whisper Games began and the audible was called.  Now the fake plan of oldVokai voting for Elaine along with Aaron and Missy became the real plan.  If either one of Aaron or Missy stuck to that plan, oldVokai would retain the numbers.  It was the best, and probably only, option they had left.

On 10/30/2019 at 8:21 PM, LadyChatts said:

Where are we at with idols?  Just Kellee and Jamal that have them?

According to the Tribe Tracker thread, this is correct.  Kellee's idol will expire when she next leaves TC.  And those are the only two advantages of any kind currently still in play.  All the rest were either used, not earned, or left in a pocket.

19 hours ago, simplyme said:

I laughed out loud at Jason's "Don't trust Aaron!" Yeah. Think they figured that one out, buddy.

That was a warning to both sides, not just oldVokai.

For those saying it was almost "too convenient" that Elaine's IotI test reward was a Vote Blocker forgot one thing.  Had Noura been successful at her test two episodes ago, that would have been her reward too.  And that was pre-swap.

[30 Helens]

9 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

All the "privilege" stuff is very offensive to me.  Many white, straight males are far less privileged than many black, lesbian, women, and every other category the Jamals of the world want to place people in.   

A well dressed white man with no obvious criminal intent will never be stopped for walking or driving through a wealthy neighborhood. A well dressed black man with no obvious criminal intent will often be stopped. White privilege has nothing to do with economics or social standing.  It just means that white people have the privilege of taking certain basic rights for granted, while black people do not.

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I walked away from this conversation last night because I could tell where it was going to go and I frankly wanted no part of it. But I do just want to clear up one thing, because I saw another comment regarding Jack being seen as a racist is unfair or something to that effect.

I don't want to speak for anyone else but I know for me personally, I never called Jack a racist for his comment and I certainly don't think he is. And that I think is where these discussions get a bit muddled and there's a lot of miscommunication. 

The fact is you can say something racially insensitive without being a racist. And the fact of the matter is many of us are guilty of saying or maybe even doing something racially insensitive at some point in our lives. And yes in many cases, doing so subconsciously, without meaning to. And that's where healthy and mature dialogue is necessary and if people can have that healthy and mature dialogue, growth and change happens. 

But unfortunately that's often not the case because of the knee-jerk reaction of, "how dare you think I'm a racist". And that's exactly what Jamal said most moved and impressed him about Jack's response. That Jack didn't do that. He listened to Jamal's feelings, they talked about it, he didn't get defensive, Jamal explained why even though Jack may not have meant it in a hurtful way, he was hurt and they were good. I think that's great.

It's always great when people can disagree or have hurt feelings and talk it out and come out of it better. At no point did I suddenly hate or think Jack is some awful racist. I just think he said something that to someone else, based on that person's experience, was racially insensitive to them.

Because yes, another black guy in another season might not have cared about the comment and feel any way about it. And that's valid too. Because that's this person's experience and feelings. But Jamal was bothered, was offended and said why he was and Jack to his credit said, "okay, I hear you and I'm sorry I made you feel that way". I say kudos to them both.

I have so much love for both of your posts. Very eloquently stated.

On to lighter topics, Elaine’s fumbling of the hidden advantage was hilarious to me. I know her teammates were focused on the task at hand, but how did nobody see any of that? Or at least wonder why she stopped to tuck in her shirt in the middle of a challenge? 

Elaine’s a little weird, but I like her. She’s endearing weird, unlike Noura who is annoying weird.

Still loving Rob and Sandra. They need to set up some Spy Shacks near the camps and do some commentary there, too.

Six episodes in, and why do I still not recognize most of these players?

[Bryce Lynch]

I have been thinking about Dean's decision to rat out Noura to Jamal, instead of working with her.

I think the smart choice would have been to test the waters, by floating Noura's plan to vote out Jamal to Kellee and Janet.

He should have gone to them individually,  and said, "So, Noura is talking about going after Jamal.  Do you think that's a good idea?"

If Kellee and Janet both liked the idea, they would have the 4 votes and Dean would be safe.  If they didn't, there is a good chance they would turn on Noura and Dean would still be safe.  

They could also bring in Karishma, though they wouldn't need her vote and she is unpredictable and might warn Jamal, and blow up the plan, if Jamal or Jack had an idol (We know Jamal has one, though they don't).

[nlkm9]

About the whispering- i thought once someone showed their idol or advantage the talking/whispering was not allowed? That seemed a bit odd to me

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

A well dressed white man with no obvious criminal intent will never be stopped for walking or driving through a wealthy neighborhood. A well dressed black man with no obvious criminal intent will often be stopped.

My white son has been stopped by the police for walking through neighborhoods several times, but I agree it's probably less likely. White privilege exists and looks privilege and able bodied privilege and wealth privilege and high IQ privilege. A tall handsome man like Jamal will be hired over a short ugly white man and a beautiful, black woman will be let into an exclusive club while a plain white woman will not, people with high IQ's will breeze through school and into top jobs while others will struggle just to get a High School diploma, and people with disabilities will find every walk of life more difficult than anyone of any race.

We are all born with advantages and disadvantages and it's good to be aware of them when dealing with other people.  But no one has the right to judge others based on  attributes they are born with and over which they have no control, and that's what Jamal does.

Jamal has known Jack for days and knew that Jack admired him and looked up to him but the very moment Jack said "durag" Jamal lumped him in with all white people and instantly started to judge him by the color of his skin, "that always happens with white people,"   "white people see blacks as thugs and criminals."  Jack was no longer an individual to him but a "white person," and then Jamal used the whole idea of white privilege to justify lecturing Jack until he managed to make Jack feel ashamed of himself for being white.  

If Jamal had simply told Jack that he found durag offensive and then accepted Jack's immediate apology  -- that would have been perfect, but that's not what happened. 

Probst is calling it a great teaching moment and many people think it was a great lesson about watching what you say, and yet  Jamal apparently doesn't have to watch what he says.

Unfortunately  I think the main lesson was that white people can no longer relax enough around black people to have a real friendship.  They must constantly walk on egg shells and weigh every word because the hostility coming from the other side is just what Jamal was expressing, that white people can't be trusted and if you wait and watch they will always say something wrong, even if it's code, and then you will be allowed to express what you really feel about them.

 This is the ultimate sort of divisiveness where white people will no longer be comfortable around black people and will start avoiding them and, just like that,  we're back to social segregation.

[amazingracefan]

12 hours ago, princelina said:

This is my issue, which I haven't seen mentioned:  when Jack made his stupid comment, Jamal's initial response was something along the lines of, "This always happens with white people" or something like that.  If you dislike stereotypes, don't respond with stereotyping. I was left with the impression that Jack was trying to joke with a guy he thought of as a friend, whereas Jamal was waiting for someone (even a friend) to be offensive.  That being said, they resolved it well together and I hope not to see it lingering in future episodes 🙂 

I picked that out as well, he specifically said 'white straight men'.  And obviously not all of them are privileged anyway, some will live in poorer areas. 

The idea of race isn't something that everyone defines themselves with.  And with his pillars of identity you'll find different people will have different ways of viewing themselves, or ways others view them, including some aspects that he didn't mention.  One of the more shallow ways of judging people is by how their face looks, and whether they look beautiful or friendly, that isn't relevant to race at all.  Someone could have been ill and look dour and be judged on that for example. 

I thought it was more about how Jamal saw himself via his own experience and culture he has been around.  Some people can have set assumptions based on their environment growing up.  Although it was presented as Jack broadening his horizons it could easily be looked at the other way.

[amazingracefan]

On 10/31/2019 at 1:18 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

Has anyone ever failed to find the idol/advantage hidden in a challenge or been busted finding it?  I can't remember this ever happening. 

Also, what would happen if another player found the advantage?  Would it belong to him/her?

In this case it really didn't matter much if Elaine got busted.  In fact, I was kind of hoping she would yell, "OK, Old Lairo, we can stop now!  I just found this block-a-vote, so we're throwing the challenge and voting out on Old Vokai member tonight!"   

I was thinking along the lines of your second paragraph myself.  It's happened for several seasons now where an advantage is hidden on the underside of a platform at a challenge, surely people are aware of that and would feel around or try and block someone who is a target.  And once someone has gone away to a secret location and possibly got a clue it might put people on alert even more.  Noura's tribe looked on alert and so blocked her from doing what she wanted at the challenge.

Edited November 1, 2019 by amazingracefan

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

White privilege exists and looks privilege and able bodied privilege and wealth privilege and high IQ privilege. A tall handsome man like Jamal will be hired over a short ugly white man.

This is just not true at all and it's been proven many times.  This is why phrases like Old Boy Clubs exist.  It didn't originate because the CEOs in America are primarily handsome black men.

https://www.google.com/search?q=racism+in+hiring&rlz=1C1GGRV_enCA755CA756&oq=racism+in+hiring&aqs=chrome..69i57.4895j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_boy_network

Edited November 1, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rachel RSL]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I think the main lesson was that white people can no longer relax enough around black people to have a real friendship.  They must constantly walk on egg shells and weigh every word because the hostility coming from the other side is just what Jamal was expressing, that white people can't be trusted and if you wait and watch they will always say something wrong, even if it's code, and then you will be allowed to express what you really feel about them.

That is absolutely not true and it's definitely not what Jamal said.  If you (generic "you", not you personally) feel the need to walk on egg shells and watch every word you say, it's probably because you have a habit of saying offensive/insensitive things. I honestly don't understand why people in general get defensive and pissed off when someone simply points out that they said something hurtful.  What's the big deal if you stop using a certain word when you find out that it's upsetting to someone? Is it really that much of a burden to just be kind?

14 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

be careful, super careful with your words

This is good advice for life in general.

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, nlkm9 said:

See i was surprised because i have only heard the term doorag used to describe “ rednecks” or “ hillbillies”. Never have I heard it used to describe a person of color. That’s why that surprised me. 

Same here.  First time *I* ever heard the term “do-rag” was in the late ‘60s, and I heard it from a 60something year old white dirt farmer - more specifically, my grandfather - but it was a term i heard used by many farmers in the region, of different races.  When a farmer spent 6-8 hours a day out in the fields or on a tractor, a do-rag was what they wore under a straw hat both to soak up th3 sweat, and to keep their scalp from getting burned through any gaps in the straw weave.  Different than a bandanna, which is what you tied around your neck - and occasionally pulled up over your nose mouth to keep from breathing in dust - although the same piece of cloth could be a bandanna one minute, and a do-rag the next.  Multifunctional little sucker, that.  😉

In any case, that’s why my association with do-rags isn’t gangstas, or black males even - it’s dirt farmers, race immaterial.  

[Nashville]

31 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

 If you (generic "you", not you personally) feel the need to walk on egg shells and watch every word you say, it's probably because you have a habit of saying offensive/insensitive things.

Or - just possibly - you (generic "you", not you personally) are a nice person who goes out of their way to avoid saying offensive/insensitive things in the first place.

31 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I honestly don't understand why people in general get defensive and pissed off when someone simply points out that they said something hurtful.

Because people in general are nice people who go out of their way to avoid saying offensive/insensitive things in the first place, and get upset with themselves when they realize they’ve said something hurtful to another, maybe...?

31 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

  What's the big deal if you stop using a certain word when you find out that it's upsetting to someone?

I think the “big deal” (as you put it) is that most people would rather never have upset anyone at all, ever, in the first place; unfortunately, life in general frequently does not  offer us the opportunity to be so solicitous of the feelings of others.

31 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Is it really that much of a burden to just be kind?

Judging by the existence of this discussion thread, it would appear so - but maybe not for the reasons one might think.  I suspect at least  part of what you describe as “defensive” is actually embarrassment born of empathy - initially, at least.  As for “pissed off” - well, how many people do YOU know who enjoy having their noses rubbed in their mistakes?  Me, I consider all of life to be a teachable moment - but I also recognize most people don’t look at things the way I do.  😉

31 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

This is good advice for life in general.

No shit.  😄

[ohcomeon]

19 hours ago, Charlesman said:

If Jason's EW interview is accurate, it seems the original plan was to split the old Lairos: get Aaron and Missy to flip and vote Elaine, have Elaine and Elizabeth vote for one of them, then, the original Vokai's would all vote for Aaron. They didn't trust him and would have preferred to keep Elaine in the game, with the bonus of having Elaine mad at Missy and potentially willing to come to their side.

That's why there was so much whispering after the Block-A-Vote, they weren't sure if they'd have the numbers (though, they could have!) and decided to just go along with the "fake" plan of voting off Elaine. If they trusted both Aaron and Missy to flip, though, they could have still gone through with the Aaron vote. 

Thanks for sharing that as I couldn't figure out why all the whispering was about. 

[fishcakes]

Man, evolution is taking forever.

[SVNBob]

40 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Because people in general are nice people who go out of their way to avoid saying offensive/insensitive things in the first place, and get upset with themselves when they realize they’ve said something hurtful to another, maybe...?

Which is exactly what we saw happen with Jack.  Once he realized what he said was hurtful to someone he thought of as a friend, he was embarrassed.  That's why he walked away from the fire; not out of anger or frustration, but out of shame.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

 tall handsome man

From real life, at one time businesses were different.  An example is oil companies had their own basketball teams.  And, guess what, basketball teams are made of tall men. 

Tall men, who got to know other tall men in other companies in their industries. 

For several decades, oil companies had lots of tall men in their executive offices, who had forged friendships on the courts.  Not all oil companies, but the mid tier companies.  
One summer I worked for one such company, and I noticed that the doors going into the vice president's offices were taller (and their carpet was a whole lot better) and I asked someone in building maintenance who had been with the company a long time.  He admitted that he wished he'd been able to shoot basketball. 

Modern sport equivalent is probably golf.

[iMonrey]

Quote

It's happened for several seasons now where an advantage is hidden on the underside of a platform at a challenge, surely people are aware of that and would feel around or try and block someone who is a target.  And once someone has gone away to a secret location and possibly got a clue it might put people on alert even more. 

It appears that Elaine just happened to be on the side of the platform where the advantage was hidden. Which . . . was lucky? Did she get more info from Rob and Sandra than we were shown, i.e. "be sure you are on the south side of the platform?" Because if it were hidden on the opposite side she would have had to completely go around that platform feeling underneath all the way and surely everyone would notice.

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is just not true at all and it's been proven many times.  This is why phrases like Old Boy Clubs exist.  It didn't originate because the CEOs in America are primarily handsome black men.

Your links are about race discrimination in hiring, which I on't dispute, not about good-looks discrimination which is what I mentioned.  There are plenty of studies saying the handsome/beautiful get hired over the opposite all things considered.

3 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

 Is it really that much of a burden to just be kind?

No but it's an almost impossible burden to read someone else's mind about what they might find hurtful.  Jack saw Jamal starting to pick up a hot pan handle with his bare hand and quickly told him to uses his durag as a pot holder so he wouldn't be burned.  He was being kind.  

[Ellee]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

It appears that Elaine just happened to be on the side of the platform where the advantage was hidden. Which . . . was lucky? Did she get more info from Rob and Sandra than we were shown, i.e. "be sure you are on the south side of the platform?" Because if it were hidden on the opposite side she would have had to completely go around that platform feeling underneath all the way and surely everyone would notice.

I could be wrong but I think she was actually initially on the other side of the table and slowly walked around the table and the people there.

Being Elaine, she probably realized that it would be tucked under a place that the cameras have direct access to.  Don't know why I think that.  I just do.  I would imagine the camera men are in plain site when filming.  

Also ....

LOL, does everyone have a note about the civil rule above the reply box?  Just curious ..... or are all you beetches conspiring against me?   (Sorry, slipped into BB mode.  I'm suffering from withdrawals. 😀 )

Edited November 1, 2019 by Ellee

[JudyObscure]

55 minutes ago, Ellee said:

does everyone have a note about the civil rule above the reply box? 

Yes we do but if it's meant for anyone in particular it's me, definitely not you. 🙂

[Rachel RSL]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

No but it's an almost impossible burden to read someone else's mind about what they might find hurtful.  Jack saw Jamal starting to pick up a hot pan handle with his bare hand and quickly told him to uses his durag as a pot holder so he wouldn't be burned.  He was being kind.  

I wasn't referring to Jack.  Jack handled the situation perfectly.  He's a good egg. I was referring to the people I previously mentioned, the ones who refuse to listen and automatically tell the other person they are being overly sensitive or a snowflake, etc.  The people who, even knowing they have hurt someone, don't care and continue to do the same thing because they think it's no big deal. 

3 hours ago, Nashville said:

Because people in general are nice people who go out of their way to avoid saying offensive/insensitive things in the first place, and get upset with themselves when they realize they’ve said something hurtful to another, maybe...?

Yeah, I'm not talking about those people.  I'm talking about the people like I mentioned above.  The people who unintentionally say something offensive and, when it is pointed out to them, they get annoyed and completely blow off the other person's feelings simply because they don't think it's offensive.  These people are not embarrassed or upset with themselves.

1 hour ago, Ellee said:

LOL, does everyone have a note about the civil rule above the reply box?  Just curious ..... or are all you beetches conspiring against me?   (Sorry, slipped into BB mode.  I'm suffering from withdrawals. 😀 )

We all have it.  But we're still all conspiring against you! 😉

[After7Only]

On 10/30/2019 at 11:26 PM, deirdra said:

"Durag" made me think of Hulk Hogan, Sam Kinison & Kid Rock, not black thugs.

But yet and still there is nothing about Jamal that would remind you of Hulk Hogan, Sam Kinison, Kid Rock, or a biker gang.   And we've never heard anyone else on survivor refer to the buff as a do-rag (I'm refusing to spell it durag 🙂 ) even though many players wear them on their heads.

The reason Jamal may have been offended was that he felt Jack would not have made that comment to a white male player in the same situation.  It was a microaggression.   Jamal was careful to frame it as such.  It's about the behavior not about labeling someone a racist.    Jack may have said it in a mis-guided effort to bond with him (look... I'm cool I know about do-rags) 

People handle microaggressions in different ways.  Some are not offended by those type of comments at all, many others are offended but choose not to say anything because it's not worth the effort, others make the effort and address it.   I do appreciate Jamal saying something and Jack listening, acknowledging and adding to the conversation.   I also understand why he took a minute before having the conversation with Jack.  It takes a minute to get past the initial sting and get to root of why you were offended and then be able to articulate it in a way to not make the other person defensive.  

I think Jamal is a bit pretentious but I'm liking him on this season.  Survivor tends to cast "types" and I appreciate Jamal is not the typical type of black male cast on this show.   He's not particularly athletic, he's not getting the fish out of water edit, and he can swim 🙂

Edited November 1, 2019 by After7Only

[RoxiP]

I actually think Jamal is a lot more athletic than he is letting on...he was really good in that basketball challenge.  But that is only one facet of his total self so I appreciate what you are saying.

[simplyme]

This whole Jack and Jamal discussion makes me think of an essay by Roxane Gay (called "Peculiar Benefits") that has certainly had an effect on how I think of privilege:

https://therumpus.net/2012/05/peculiar-benefits/

It's a bit long, this is probably somewhat off-topic for the episode, but I feel like it addresses some of the points that have come up about privilege. (The end few paragraphs are, imo, what she is working towards and fleshing out, so if you're only going to read 3-4 paragraphs, start at the end rather than the beginning to get the points.)

And completely unrelated, Dean appears to be very, um, "plastic markety guy" at times. Like I can tell he's in sales. That said, so far he doesn't appear to be heinous in personality and shallow me admits she's noticed his abs. That said, in a choice between Dean's Abs or Elaine (or Kellee or Elizabeth or Janet or bizarrely entertaining Noura), he loses me.

Huh. I just typed that and realized that so far none of the men has really interested me except Tom, who's now gone. I assume that's editing 's fault.

[amazingracefan]

3 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I wasn't referring to Jack.  Jack handled the situation perfectly.  He's a good egg. I was referring to the people I previously mentioned, the ones who refuse to listen and automatically tell the other person they are being overly sensitive or a snowflake, etc.  The people who, even knowing they have hurt someone, don't care and continue to do the same thing because they think it's no big deal. 

Yeah, I'm not talking about those people.  I'm talking about the people like I mentioned above.  The people who unintentionally say something offensive and, when it is pointed out to them, they get annoyed and completely blow off the other person's feelings simply because they don't think it's offensive.  These people are not embarrassed or upset with themselves.

We all have it.  But we're still all conspiring against you! 😉

Then there's some people who assume that a certain segment of people are antagonistic towards them simply because of some racial difference they perceive.  Carrying that kind of mental baggage can make someone withdraw within a particular group and reinforce ideas and make it not so pleasant for others living in some areas.

[Eolivet]

I was thinking about this episode, and how much I enjoyed it, and I think it was because it was about the perils of arrogance. We've seen many an overconfident alliance head to tribal council, secure in their numbers, only to find out that someone flipped or they got blindsided by an idol or something made their plans go awry. But it usually consists of shocked expressions and maybe a couple angry confessionals back at camp. What set this apart is by Elaine reading the advantage, we got to see in real time what happens when people who assume they have control have that control wrested from them.

The Vokai four had their gracious winner faces on. They were so secure in their numbers, so confident in their plan. They proudly proclaimed they would draw rocks for each other as a little added disincentive for anyone considered not joining them. And they'd secretly been maneuvering the Lairos behind the scenes. They had plans on top of their plans.

Then Elaine read her advantage.

And slowly, but surely, all that graciousness began to fade. First, it became panic with all the whispering. Then it turned to shock, and finally outright bitterness. Tears. Disgust. Disbelief. We witnessed a real-time meltdown of people losing control who assumed they had it. It led to ridiculous hyperbole ("I'll replay this night for the rest of my life" -- really, Tommy?) and selfish agony about their personal games from people who were ready to pat Elaine (or whoever) on the back and put on their gracious winner faces when her torch was snuffed.

Because they never assumed they could lose.

Survivor has had a lot of memorable moments over the years, and I'm not ready to put this episode in that category. But so rarely do we get to see the downfall of arrogance in such exacting detail, and that made it particularly satisfying to me.

[violet and green]

11 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

What set this apart is by Elaine reading the advantage, we got to see in real time what happens when people who assume they have control have that control wrested from them.

Yes. Very interesting point. It was fascinating to watch.

And a thousand times yes to your whole well-articulated post!

[LanceM]

So apparently one of the reasons Jason and Noura were aligned was because Jason found out that he had dated Noura's cousin a few years back per his exit interviews.  So that is now two incidences of people on the Vokai tribe having connections with other members of their cast.

[nutty1]

Am I the only one who cannot keep straight who was old Vokai and old Lairo?? Heck, I don't even know who is on the current tribes. My head is spinning after reading the strategies from old and new tribes. I need a Survivor spreadsheet for Dummies!

[tvgoddess]

30 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

Am I the only one who cannot keep straight who was old Vokai and old Lairo?? Heck, I don't even know who is on the current tribes. My head is spinning after reading the strategies from old and new tribes. I need a Survivor spreadsheet for Dummies!

I'll come sit with you. I haven't watched in quite some time, and this tribe swap is throwing me way off. They don't even let you get used to the who's on what tribe to begin with, then they change them. Way confusing.

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, tvgoddess said:

3 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Am I the only one who cannot keep straight who was old Vokai and old Lairo?? Heck, I don't even know who is on the current tribes. My head is spinning after reading the strategies from old and new tribes. I need a Survivor spreadsheet for Dummies!

I'll come sit with you. I haven't watched in quite some time, and this tribe swap is throwing me way off. They don't even let you get used to the who's on what tribe to begin with, then they change them. Way confusing.

I hate to keep self-promoting like this, but this is the exact reason I started doing the Tribe Tracker threads.  Well, this and unironic posts saying, "Wait, there's a [Name] on this season?"

5 hours ago, Eolivet said:

But so rarely do we get to see the downfall of arrogance in such exacting detail, and that made it particularly satisfying to me.

I think the last time something like this happened was back in Marquesas with the toppling of the Rotu 4 after the original coconut chop.

[nlkm9]

So help me out here- i thought once someone showed an idol or an advantage there was no more talk or whispering— has this rule been changed?

[Rachel RSL]

Was it ever a rule? As far as I can remember, TPTB love anything that creates more drama, especially at TC.

[Rachel RSL]

11 hours ago, nutty1 said:

Am I the only one who cannot keep straight who was old Vokai and old Lairo?? Heck, I don't even know who is on the current tribes. My head is spinning after reading the strategies from old and new tribes. 

Same. I seem to have this issue almost every season. I’m too busy trying to learn everybody’s names (or trying to notice that they’re even there) to remember who is on which tribe. Then they always do a tribe swap and start talking about the old and new whatever tribe and I’m just lost.  Sadly, the Tribe Tracker thread is no help to me because I can’t place the names mentioned there with the actual faces while I’m watching the show. Unless maybe I had the thread open and kept pausing the show to read then possibly.

Meh...I’ll just wait for the merge. 🤷‍♀️

[peachmangosteen]

23 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Man, evolution is taking forever.

I had been feeling really sad about the fact that Jamal handled the situation in this ep absolutely perfectly and was still getting shit for it but this comment made me full out lol so thanks for that.

[lilabennet]

Missy. Aaron, Elizabeth, and Elaine should all agree to throw the next immunity challenge.  Even though Dean and Karishma probably aren't planning on working with OldLairo if they meet back up, there would still be value to them in getting out as many of the OldVokais as possible before the merge.  And this is probably the least risky time for them to throw a challenge.  They know that Dan, Lauren, and Tommy definitely don't have idols.  If they did, then they would have used them at the last tribal council.  The next person going to IoI and potentially getting an advantage that could shake things up is on the other tribe.  All they would have to do is keep a close eye on the OldVokais to make sure they don't go idol hunting, and they can be reasonably assured that throwing the immunity challenge won't bite them in the ass.

[nlkm9]

10 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

Was it ever a rule? As far as I can remember, TPTB love anything that creates more drama, especially at TC.

certainly no whispering after voting starts--i assumed it was the same for showing an advantage.

[Blissfool]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:21 PM, LadyChatts said:

Something about Elizabeth just bugs.  I can't exactly pinpoint what it is, but I'm just not digging her.

For me it's the over-expressive facial reactions, especially her wide-eyed expression.

22 hours ago, LanceM said:

So apparently one of the reasons Jason and Noura were aligned was because Jason found out that he had dated Noura's cousin a few years back per his exit interviews.  

CBS recycling. BB's Christy and Tommy, anyone?

Here's another:

Why is Survivor Tommy assuming that Jason had no shot of having a date for prom? 

Reminds me of the Jacks on BB not believing that Ovi had a girlfriend.

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Why is Survivor Tommy assuming that Jason had no shot of having a date for prom? 

I forgot about that. Tommy is really shaping up to be a bit of an asshole.

[Brookside]

"Let it roll off my shoulders for my own social mobility" says Jamal.  Is English his first language?

[JudyObscure]

On 11/1/2019 at 11:44 AM, fishcakes said:

Man, evolution is taking forever.

Isn't it though?  I was hoping the 21st Century would be a time of giving up defining people by "race" and  moving into complete, color blind equality, but instead it looks like  we've moved into a new and stronger division with highly educated people like Jamal elevating the falsehood  of separate races into  pillars of identity,  and giving us all "teaching moments" about What White People Think, even pretending to be able to read their  subconscious to warn us that,   "White people think black people are thugs, wife beaters and murderers."  If enough people listen to the Jamal's of the world they'll soon believe every white person is a racist, even the ones who seem nice on the surface are subconsciously bad -- and another century of division will pass.