S15.E11: The Men Tell All

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, operakatz said:

Continued gaslighting. It appears, at least from what we saw, to be his go-to. And that is a red flag. He also seemed to insist on re-explaining over and over, refusing to allow anyone to have their own response to his words or behavior, as if only his view of things was reality.

I thought the man (I forget which one) had it right when he said Luke was like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but still claiming he didn't take one.  That's Luke's immaturity and I think he'll get over it in time -- maybe just by watching the show back.  It's not gaslighting.  Gaslighting would be the guy who took the cookie when no one was looking and then told his mom she must be losing it because she hadn't made any cookies.  A gaslighter tries to convince the other person that they're losing their mind.  Luke isn't that smooth.

I thought the link of Chris Harrison above was very interesting, particularly how Luke's older brother had been coaching him.  I think that explains the long pauses while he tried to be careful with his words.  Sometimes Luke says what he thinks sounds proud and manly, "I wouldn't change a thing,"  followed by the truth, "Of course I would do things differently."  Sometimes he says something like "I wanted to rescue Hannah," and only when the crowd moans does he realize that they think he meant rescue her from herself, when he knows he meant rescue her from "wrong reasons" guys.  

5 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

I know just what you mean.  I have been seeing this kind of aggressive behavior encouraged for a long time now.  That somehow being loud and obnoxious and putting others down is "how to be cool" and "speak your truth".  It's just a really regressive way of conducting oneself.  The fact that the whole audience was cheering, shows me they're fully on board with this mean-girl attitude and will, as you suggested, mimic this nastiness whenever they get triggered and feel entitled to a histrionic display of pseudo-empowerment.

I agree with this so much and it's why Hannah is my least favorite Bachelorette ever.   She's such a bad example of a strong woman.  Women like Rachel or Emily could control the show while still being gracious and kind.  Feminism was never supposed to mean acting like the worst sort of man. The lead most like Hannah was Juan Pablo.

[jackjill89]

I don't think any Bachelor franchise show is right for Luke -- please don't let him come to Paradise. He's just not cut out for the show. He wants someone all to himself and that's fine, but that's not what the show's premise is. 

I think he's going to be just fine. He's going to go back to life in Georgia and he's not going to be damaged one bit from this because he'll spin it that it was everyone else's fault. It was all jealousy. 

He might be the nicest guy IRL, but heaven help you if you're competing against him for what he thinks is his. 

He really doesn't seem to have the capacity to let all of this damage him, so I'm not going to worry about Luke. He's going to be fine, and he needs to stay away from anything Bachelor related and just live his life. 

[nutty1]

I felt like Hannah was reading off a Teleprompter during her apology at the end of the show. Am I the only one?

[TheFinalRose]

31 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

I felt like Hannah was reading off a Teleprompter during her apology at the end of the show. Am I the only one?

I was annoyed at that apology. I would rather have had one for canceling all the cocktail parties, as I found that more annoying than the time she spent figuring out "her heart" in regards to Luke. 

[ohcomeon]

Just watched the episode and had a few thoughts.

I know the Luke drama was completely manipulated and feel sorry for Hanna and the others allowing it to go on. But if just a few young women benefit from watching Hanna and the men confront Luke about his controlling behavior and learn to stand up for themselves then I'm sort of ok with it. It almost seems like this year the producers were jumping on the me too movement and found the villain in Luke and a bachelorette too happy to tell him to F off.

JPJ seriously irritated me on the show anytime he was around Hanna. However, in the clips, he was so funny. I wish we had seen more of that side of him. Looking forward to him being in paradise.

Lastly, I would love to see Mike as the next bachelor.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Nika said:

In the context used here lynch had nothing to do with race and it is common sense to use it here with regards to Luke (who is a white, super privileged man. Yes, white males can be lynched as well).

But once again, he absolutely wasn't, not even metaphorically.

Nobody prevented Luke from speaking except himself.  That's not a literal lynching, it's not a metaphorical lynching, it's not any kind of lynching.

[waving feather]

I didn't mind what Hannah said during the MTA until she forced out that fake ass apology at the end to shade Luke. Is that necessary to stick the knife in a little deeper? Is it, Hannah?!

On another note, Hannah still has feelings for Luke because she still gets so worked up and emotional talking to and about Luke. It's been a while since they finished filming, right?

Edited July 24, 2019 by waving feather

[Dittohead]

Her apology at the end of the show made her look more vile and un-Christian than Luke could ever  possibly manage to pull off.  I no longer see Kaitlin as the worst Bachelorette.  Hannah is such a hypocrite.  "The fantasy suites are not about sex.". Sure, Hannah, whatever you say.  

[waving feather]

22 minutes ago, Dittohead said:

Her apology at the end of the show made her look more vile and un-Christian than Luke could ever  possibly manage to pull off.

Yes, it's just mean-spirited. Even the men were reasonable (except for Mike, the self-righteous prick. Who gave him the right to say Luke's future wife would be a prisoner of him.) I didn't mind the rest questioning him on what happened on the show, because I think Luke P. really is self-unaware and needs a bit of a wake-up call. But on this MTA, he wasn't posturing or being manipulative, so why attack him more than necessary, Hannah? I appreciate Matteo, the voice of reason, who said Luke screwed up many times on the show and he has been paying for it by being humiliated and hated on TV. Hello Matteo, I don't remember you on the show but why didn't Hannah keep you? Well, I know the answer...

[StatisticalOutlier]

15 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

Luke said, "I'm literally getting fitted for a suit to propose in and I am finding out that the night before my one-on-one time with her, she's having sex and that's not something I want in a future wife." 

I thought I heard him say he was fitted for a suit.  Which makes Peter's suit even that much harder to understand.

.

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I thought the man (I forget which one) had it right when he said Luke was like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but still claiming he didn't take one.  That's Luke's immaturity and I think he'll get over it in time -- maybe just by watching the show back.  It's not gaslighting.  Gaslighting would be the guy who took the cookie when no one was looking and then told his mom she must be losing it because she hadn't made any cookies.  A gaslighter tries to convince the other person that they're losing their mind.  Luke isn't that smooth.

Thank you!!  Somehow gaslighting has become a synonym for lying, and it's just not the case.

.

4 hours ago, Nika said:

I am so tired of forced political correctness... C'mon now, let's not take fun out of the discussion to quote dictionary definitions. Dissemination of every word is exhausting...

Speaking of using a dictionary...  😉

[TheFinalRose]

1 hour ago, waving feather said:

On another note, Hannah still has feelings for Luke because she still gets so worked up and emotional talking to and about Luke. It's been a while since they finished filming, right?

Great point. As they say, the opposite of love is not hate but indifference toward the object--no feeling. The way the relationship ended just looked like a bad fight between two lovers that they might have resolved the next day when they calmed down. And I think that was what Luke was thinking ... they loved each other and would want to talk it out ... doesn't mean he's a stalker except for on this show it does. 

[DEL901]

2 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

I thought I heard him say he was fitted for a suit.  Which makes Peter's suit even that much harder to understand.

Maybe only final 2 get the suits?  But to have enough time to finish, they fit the final 3/4?

[HaaCHOO]

54 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

The way the relationship ended just looked like a bad fight between two lovers that they might have resolved the next day when they calmed down.

There's also the factor of being humiliated on national TV for weeks (although she didn't know it at the time).  She was warned several times and she's just stuck to her guns (libido).  Now she's a combination of mad and embarrassed.

[HaaCHOO]

59 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

16 hours ago, ApolloSun said:

Luke said, "I'm literally getting fitted for a suit to propose in and I am finding out that the night before my one-on-one time with her, she's having sex and that's not something I want in a future wife." 

I thought I heard him say he was fitted for a suit.  Which makes Peter's suit even that much harder to understand.

He told us on "The Men Tell All" that he felt "neglected." I assumed he meant by Production.  Maybe he just took charge of finding his own tailor and getting "fitted for a suit."  Poor baby!

All the things all the kids he grew up with knew about him were finally on display (week after week) for his poor unsuspecting parents.  (Or are they sociopaths too?)

[Crs97]

Getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar and denying you took one can absolutely be gaslighting if you spend your time trying to convince the other person that they don’t see you with your hand in the cookie jar.

Luke has made statements.  She has responded to those statements only to have him deny he said them or tell her she doesn’t understand what he meant.  You see her frustration and confusion every time.  When he tells her he didn’t say something and we all heard him say it, that’s both lying and gaslighting.

[Arkay]

I don't know if anyone else here has had a family member lynched, but I have. Before my time, my great-great-grandfather was hung from a tree in Poland. He was hung by his tallit, which is a prayer shawl and very significant, because he was Jewish. I don't want to stray off-topic, but I understand 100% that the term was being used metaphorically, and I don't take offense because Luke is white and privileged. No one needs to dissect this for literal meaning. When Clarence Thomas said he was subjected to a "high-tech lynching for uppity blacks," he was speaking metaphorically as well. Of course he had the awful history of actual lynchings of blacks to undergird him, but my great-great-grandfather was hung as part of an endless history of anti-Semitism. 

I've often taught the poem "Strange Fruit" to my students, of all races, because it's so important for this to be understood. However, although words are in fact super-charged with meaning and the connotation of lynching is about blacks in the South, that is a tragic blot in American history. In world history, people have been lynched wherever they've been the hated minority. 

I'm done with the topic now as it's off-topic for the show. Just wanted to clarify that it was understood to be a mob mentality crucifying Luke. 

[HaaCHOO]

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree with this so much and it's why Hannah is my least favorite Bachelorette ever.   She's such a bad example of a strong woman. 

Wait!  WHAT???  You mean dropping F-bombs as many times as possible on a one-hour "reality" show doesn't equate to a strong woman?

(I'm old--happily--and never object to foul language properly used--unless I'm called some stupid name--but Hannah acted like she just learned the word and wanted to use it often and loud)

[HaaCHOO]

3 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I've often taught the poem "Strange Fruit" to my students, of all races, because it's so important for this to be understood.

Thanks so much, Arkay, for this simple sentence. I'd heard Billie Holliday's rendition but didn't realize it was a poem.  Because of you I looked up its history and read the story of the man who wrote it.  So interesting and enlightening.  Thanks for providing some profound information on what truly is my silly online pasttime.

[Arkay]

6 minutes ago, HaaCHOO said:

Thanks so much, Arkay, for this simple sentence. I'd heard Billie Holliday's rendition but didn't realize it was a poem.  Because of you I looked up its history and read the story of the man who wrote it.  So interesting and enlightening.  Thanks for providing some profound information on what truly is my silly online pasttime.

You're so welcome. It's a haunting poem and one which my students, over a quarter of a century, absolutely responded to because it's so stark and beautiful. It was written by a Jewish man (a Communist) because of our history of persecution, murder and banishment, therefore we are partners in civil rights. 

I know that no one comes to this forum for an English lesson, so I'll shut up now! 

[jade.black]

The worst part of watching this show a day late and catching up on these boards a day later than that is that you guys cover everything before I get here! I'm firmly on board with those who think Luke deserved everything he got. His insistence that Hannah didn't know what she actually wanted and HE knew she was in love with him and he knew she made a mistake... it was infuriating. Her moving the rose pedestal and Tyler jumping in telling him not to tell Hannah how she thinks or feels were just fantastic. (Also, Tyler's "or what" when Luke told Jed to back off was hot... but also, fuck you too, Jed). 

Luke is also so dumb you could practically see the rusty wheels trying to turn in his head during his 5 minute pauses following pretty simple questions- and ones he should have expected and prepared for beforehand. The only credit I'll give him this season is that he truly did seem to try to defuse the situation with the guys in the house, but a lot of that was just more backtracking which is his specialty. "Let me start over" was basically his motto this season.

JPJ was actually hilarious! Although my friend yelled out, "No, stop! She's a witch!" when that crazy girl came down to cut a lock of his hair. Where do they find these people? The bloopers scene of him practicing "yaaas, queeen" to accept his rose at the ceremony was my favorite thing at the MTA.

Mike for Bachelor (if we don't get Tyler).

[Mrs. DuRona]

Damn you, Men Tell All.  You made me actually, genuinely laugh at Cam's ridiculous rapping.  

[HaaCHOO]

57 minutes ago, jade.black said:

The bloopers scene of him practicing "yaaas, queeen" to accept his rose at the ceremony was my favorite thing at the MTA.

My adult son and I know that phrase only from "Broad City."  Is it current elsewhere?

[jade.black]

2 minutes ago, HaaCHOO said:

My adult son and I know that phrase only from "Broad City."  Is it current elsewhere?

It's not my personal style of lingo, but yep, lots of females especially in their 20s use it to compliment other women. 

[HaaCHOO]

Just now, jade.black said:

It's not my personal style of lingo, but yep, lots of females especially in their 20s use it to compliment other women. 

And that "adult son" could be the father of those 20s.  I actually keep HIM current!

[OldWiseOne]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:20 AM, Bachelor Fan said:

Does anyone else feel ABC is only shedding Luke P in a negative light? I agree he is a little insane, but he is obviously in love with Hannah and was willing to go back to fight for her. Love makes you crazy.

Nope no not a chance. We need to stop telling boys and men (or implying) that a woman's "no" can be overcome by real love or passion or whatever. No means no, it does not mean try harder, it does not mean if you really love me please ignore my no and keep asking, it doesn't mean maybe so keep fighting for me, it means no. Full stop. Every time.

And I'm done talking about Luke. Hopefully forever.

I thought it was interesting at the beginning of the episode when the F3 were coming to the rose ceremony that they showed the studio audience when both Peter and Tyler came in (and plenty of swooning fangirls in the audience cheering) but it was noticeably absent when Jed arrived. Wonder if there was a lot of booing back in studio that they didn't want us to see?

[nutty1]

1 hour ago, OldWiseOne said:

And I'm done talking about Luke. Hopefully forever.

I thought it was interesting at the beginning of the episode when the F3 were coming to the rose ceremony that they showed the studio audience when both Peter and Tyler came in (and plenty of swooning fangirls in the audience cheering) but it was noticeably absent when Jed arrived. Wonder if there was a lot of booing back in studio that they didn't want us to see?

First, I agree...I am through even thinking about Luke. 

Second, I also noticed that, about the cheering for Peter and Tyler. That was just filmed about a week ago, so everyone there had to know about Jed and the girlfriend at home rumors.

[nittany cougar]

5 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

Great point. As they say, the opposite of love is not hate but indifference toward the object--no feeling. The way the relationship ended just looked like a bad fight between two lovers that they might have resolved the next day when they calmed down. And I think that was what Luke was thinking ... they loved each other and would want to talk it out ... doesn't mean he's a stalker except for on this show it does. 

 This is an interesting perspective.  They really seemed crazy for each other in the beginning, almost like high school kids.  Maybe it was their common Southern and religious roots.  When you feel that kind if elation over someone, it is painful when it goes bad.

Honestly I think Hannah has the best chance with a guy like Luke because he is Southern and religious. 

The problem started with their miscommunication about sex in the last episode.  There was no reason for Hannah to get all pissy and start yelling about what husband would say to her.  She could have said, "I disagree and I would like to tell you why."  Instead everything goes from 0 to banshee in the blink of an eye.  I think they could both use anger management training.

Also, husbands say plenty of dumb shit, Hannah!  In a marriage you work through things and resolve your differences.

Edited July 24, 2019 by nittanycougar

[deSchenke]

17 minutes ago, nittanycougar said:

The problem started with their miscommunication about sex in the last episode.  There was no reason for Hannah to get all pissy and start yelling about what husband would say to her.  She could have said, "I disagree and I would like to tell you why."  Instead everything goes from 0 to banshee in the blink of an eye.  I think they could both use anger management training.

Also, husbands say plenty of dumb shit, Hannah!  In a marriage you work through things and resolve your differences.

2

No, the problem started way before then.  And they aren't married, so there is no commitment to work through things.

Hey, where was this John Paul Jones we saw in the bloopers?  I thought he was amusing enough but we didn't see all that much of him in the actual show.  I remember Chris Harrison went on and on about JPJ prior to the show airing.  But I think a lot of JPJ footage ended up on the editing room floor.  I sure wish we had been able to see more of the guys whose initials weren't LP.

[LBS]

11 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

No, the problem started way before then.  And they aren't married, so there is no commitment to work through things.

100% agree.  It was consistent pattern for him to say things out of both sides of his mouth and then claim ignorance/innocence when called out on it.  She just had enough.  And if that is LP showing himself in the "honeymoon" stage of the relationship...... yikes once they get out of it. 

14 minutes ago, deSchenke said:

 I remember Chris Harrison went on and on about JPJ prior to the show airing.  But I think a lot of JPJ footage ended up on the editing room floor.  I sure wish we had been able to see more of the guys whose initials weren't LP.

Also 100% agree!  I read an article about how JPJ was supposed to be so entertaining.  I feel like we, as an audience. got really gypped out of seeing a fun loving and attractive group of men getting along this year.  Stupid show.  

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, LBS said:

I read an article about how JPJ was supposed to be so entertaining.  I feel like we, as an audience. got really gypped out of seeing a fun loving and attractive group of men getting along this year.  Stupid show.

Personally, I would rather watch a show that focused on the fun side of things. The guys goofing around when the Lead is off on a date, the stuff we see in bloopers. I've had enough of the drama. I usually end up leaving the season about halfway through because the drama is just soooooooo overdone and sooooooo boring to me. A bunch of people yelling at each other is not entertaining to me. 

I miss the fun. There used to be at least a little fun. Now it's all drama and tears and yelling. 

[seacliffsal]

Hannah very clearly told the men at the beginning of the season that she wanted someone bold who would fight for her.  Luke took it to heart, along with all the other "directions" that she gave to him and the others.  I'm not saying that Luke was right in his interactions with the others on the show, but she cheered on the rough play during the rugby game and at other times.  I also believe that when they were one-on-one that she sent mixed messages (just because that was what she did throughout the show).  Luke's actions and behaviors are on him, but Hannah also has much for which to answer.  

I unexpectedly enjoyed Hannah at the beginning of the series, but after the MTA, I'm not a fan.  She could have dealt with Luke and moved on.  Instead it seemed like all she wanted to do was attack him and that the other men were kind of after thoughts.

And, GO MATEO!  I have absolutely no remembrance of him from the show whatsoever, but really appreciated that he was clear that Luke had suffered enough.  Is it too late to support Mateo for the Bachelor?

[HaaCHOO]

2 hours ago, nittanycougar said:

Honestly I think Hannah has the best chance with a guy like Luke because he is Southern and religious. 

But LukeP is so much more (really LESS...big time) than Southern and Religious.  He has some serious issues that require counseling--professional counseling.  He's a pathological liar and a conman (they go together).

I'd like to know what kind of employee he is...and if he's (maybe) working for his family's business when he can get away with a lot.

[Crs97]

I would love to see more of the friendship that develops among many of the guys.  For instance, that salmon jacket everyone wore belonged to Tyler.  I would love to see them raiding each other’s stuff.

ETA: This is a fun recap!  https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bachelorette-men-tell-recap-everybody-020033662.html

Edited July 25, 2019 by Crs97

[Nowhere]

7 hours ago, jade.black said:

The worst part of watching this show a day late and catching up on these boards a day later than that is that you guys cover everything before I get here! I'm firmly on board with those who think Luke deserved everything he got. His insistence that Hannah didn't know what she actually wanted and HE knew she was in love with him and he knew she made a mistake... it was infuriating. Her moving the rose pedestal and Tyler jumping in telling him not to tell Hannah how she thinks or feels were just fantastic. (Also, Tyler's "or what" when Luke told Jed to back off was hot... but also, fuck you too, Jed). 

Luke is also so dumb you could practically see the rusty wheels trying to turn in his head during his 5 minute pauses following pretty simple questions- and ones he should have expected and prepared for beforehand. The only credit I'll give him this season is that he truly did seem to try to defuse the situation with the guys in the house, but a lot of that was just more backtracking which is his specialty. "Let me start over" was basically his motto this season.

JPJ was actually hilarious! Although my friend yelled out, "No, stop! She's a witch!" when that crazy girl came down to cut a lock of his hair. Where do they find these people? The bloopers scene of him practicing "yaaas, queeen" to accept his rose at the ceremony was my favorite thing at the MTA.

Mike for Bachelor (if we don't get Tyler).

I hope someone can remember a dark haired woman on The Bachelor some years ago, got sent home and insisted that the man was making a mistake. She turned back a couple of times, crying, saying she knew he was making a mistake. Can anyone recall who that was? And how is that okay, but Luke feeling the same and expressing it under pressure from production to come back and voice his feelings, is absolutely crazy and not okay? I bet production called Luke and asked him to come back, not the other way around. They probably told him that she said she still had feelings. 

6 hours ago, HaaCHOO said:

My adult son and I know that phrase only from "Broad City."  Is it current elsewhere?

I was a bartender at a gay club and it’s a very common phrase there too. Yaaas, Queen! 

So, here’s the rest of my issue with the Luke situation. I am a non-practicing Jewish person. I love being Jewish but I don’t believe in the religion, just the culture. However, I have some family who are very religious Christians for some reason. The Luke kind. It’s sad because they feel very guilty about every little sin. They are harder on themselves than anyone else would ever be on them. During MTA, Luke reminded me so much of them. He begged forgiveness for things he shouldn’t have had to be forgiven for considering we all have the right to practice the religion we want and he is a hardcore, saw Jesus in the shower, Christian, who believes in abstinence until marriage, and men being head of household. Why are we accusing him of being some kind of abuser because he believes in the word of his god? Most people in the US are some form of Christian and believe the Bible is the word of god and should he practiced as written. He has every right to want a woman who agrees with him on this. I believe Hannah lied to him OFF camera because she wanted him just like she lied to Colton about wishing she was still a virgin. Then when she couldn’t stay off of Peter, SHE felt embarrassed that he called her out on what she previously stated, ie that she was on the same page as far as fantasy suites. She got all defensive because she was guilty.

Luke tried to get along with the other guys btw, but they weren’t having it. They just didn’t like him and that’s fine. But they did isolate him and bully him when he tried to make things right. That’s got to mess with you some. Then editing always shows the worst. Not the parts where he was getting along with Garrett and then Garret telling Luke he was just being fake nice to him. That must have hurt Luke. Any one of these guys could have gotten a villain edit.

And since when do we hate Christian doctrine in America? I mean, I do. But I find it weird that Mr Blondie born again virgin from a previous season is just fine but Luke ( same guy but dumber) is being called every name in the book. I guarantee most of us have a friend or loved one who believes the man should be the head of household because of Christianity and probably doesn’t want his girl spreading herself thin with other men. Luke wasn’t trying to hurt Hannah. He’s just a Christian man. I think he would have been the nicest guy in the house if he didn’t have to defend every move he made because the others were jealous. And boohoo, little butt hurt what’s his name got hurt on a rugby field. Well what the hell did they expect playing that game with a bunch of competitive men? People are too sensitive. 

[meatball77]

14 hours ago, jackjill89 said:

I don't think any Bachelor franchise show is right for Luke -- please don't let him come to Paradise. He's just not cut out for the show. He wants someone all to himself and that's fine, but that's not what the show's premise is. 

I think he's going to be just fine. He's going to go back to life in Georgia and he's not going to be damaged one bit from this because he'll spin it that it was everyone else's fault. It was all jealousy. 

He might be the nicest guy IRL, but heaven help you if you're competing against him for what he thinks is his. 

He really doesn't seem to have the capacity to let all of this damage him, so I'm not going to worry about Luke. He's going to be fine, and he needs to stay away from anything Bachelor related and just live his life. 

I totally expect him to work his experience on the Fundamental Christian circuit.  Maybe even start his own church, probably give talks at those big conventions where they talk about how the man should be the head of the household and how you too can reclaim your virginity. . . . 

[chocolatine]

On 7/23/2019 at 9:20 AM, Bachelor Fan said:

men were created to be leaders

Men were not created.

Edited July 25, 2019 by chocolatine

[South Mouth]

I actually felt bad for Luke P. He humiliated himself and didn’t even realize it.  He’s like a car accident... you know you should not look but you just can’t help it. I thought after he had watched this season, he would realize how ridiculous he looked. The fact that he was defending his behavior just solidifies what I suspected all along. Too make it really simple, he’s just oblivious. I thought his parents would at least help him see how bad he acted. The prayer group? No one  called the guy outside and told him the truth? Poor guy. He just needs to lay low and stop talking. And as for Hannah, I think it’s a southern thing but those highlights in her hair make her look very old.  Please let Tyler be the next bachelor. That’s the least they could do after making us suffer through this season. 

[meatball77]

Oh, I think it's worse than being oblivious.  I think that he truly believes that his behavior is an example of what a godly man looks like and that he was really showing his testimony and being a good example to those out there "struggling" with their past and whom need to find shower Jesus . . .

[South Mouth]

On 7/22/2019 at 9:04 PM, GracieK said:

I say this every week. Luke is dumber than a box of rocks. Obviously someone advised him to think through his answers during his interview and to take his time. I’m not at all shocked that he would take that to a literal extreme... he’s just not smart or at all sophisticated.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was thinking the whole time that someone told him to think first. But he took so long that I think he’s just clueless. It was painful to watch him humiliate himself. 

[Bethanne]

11 hours ago, HaaCHOO said:

Wait!  WHAT???  You mean dropping F-bombs as many times as possible on a one-hour "reality" show doesn't equate to a strong woman?

(I'm old--happily--and never object to foul language properly used--unless I'm called some stupid name--but Hannah acted like she just learned the word and wanted to use it often and loud)

She’s a child throwing around bad words to make mom and dad sit up and take notice. When she’s in one of her angry, manic states it’s “f$&k this” and “f$&k that” but when she’s more excited and pleasant,  it’s “what the crap!” Same with her hair whipping and straddling of boys when she’s in an emotional state and then chaste pecks and beaming smiles when she’s chill. Such an interesting personality study. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bethanne

[DEL901]

I have given this far too much thought over the last few days.   There has been a lot of great discussion...does Luke P really love her or is it all about control?  Was he right to give her the ultimatum? Was he trying to gaslight her or was he just lying or just a unaware of how his words would be construed?  Did she lead him on?  Did she take too much joy in shaming him?  Is his view of Christianity too narrow?  Is hers too self-serving?   And on and on and on.  

My conclusion.... she said No.   whatever lead up to it (and we will never know everything) doesn’t ultimately matter.   She said no and he refused to accept her decision.    He even told her she didn’t really feel what she said she did and refused to accept her decision.   

To me this is all that matters.  I don’t care about the religion or lying or leading on or whatever.    No means no, no matter what went on before.   He doesn’t get to have the final word or try to persuade her she doesn’t know her own mind.  

I am not letting Hannah off the hook completely. She went too far in her glee at finally having her clarity, but that that may have been a sign of just how hard it was for her to see him clearly and break free.   No free pass for her, but it doesn’t minimize what he did.  

IMO

Edited July 25, 2019 by DEL901

[waving feather]

42 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

She went too far in her glee at finally having her clarity, but that that May have been a sign of just how hard it was for her to see him clearly and break free.

Sure, but during MTA, Luke seems over her and didn't show any over-the-top emotions when he saw her but Hannah was all over the place. Why is she so hung up on what he did months later. She didn't want closure with him at that rose ceremony but I felt like she's the one who needs closure now.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, DEL901 said:

No means no, no matter what went on before.   He doesn’t get to have the final word or try to persuade her she doesn’t know her own mind.  

I've been thinking about this, too (and I love your summary of all the interesting questions that came out of this episode.)   Only I don't think I understand the "no means no" thing the way you and many others, including  Tyler seem to understand it.

  I always thought  the "no means no," slogan was all about sexual consent, particularly as it defined date rape. I remember when the phrase was first  coined at Antioch college, a few miles from where I lived.  It was meant to say that, at any point at all, when a man is having sex with a woman, from the first kiss to the final act, she had the right to say no and he had the obligation to stop immediately.

I don't think "no means no" was ever meant to be used outside of sex.  I  definitely  don't think it should mean that a woman can't be argued with, that a man can't use his words to try to talk her into something, whether it's what movie to see or whether or not to keep dating.  If women are going to ever be seen as equal to men I don't think we should coddle them to the point where they aren't required to put up with and deal with the pushy people in the world who have trouble taking no for an answer in an argument -- because those people are everywhere and of both genders.

[jette]

Hannah didn't need closure with Luke, she needed closure with America. She needed to refocus everyone's attention back on her where it belongs. Too much time had been spent on him the entire season. 

It really is too bad that none of the conversations that bound the two of them together were ever shown. The season makes both of them look bad. 

[Mabinogia]

34 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I always thought  the "no means no," slogan was all about sexual consent, particularly as it defined date rape.

That is the genesis of it, yes, but I don't think it should be only about a sexual act. I think anyone should have the right to end a relationship that isn't working for them or is harmful (physically, emotionally, financially, whateverally) without the other person steamrolling their wishes and telling them they are wrong. Luke was, unintentionally I feel (I don't think he is vicious, I just think he is a selfish controlling jerk who can't help himself), ignoring Hannah's feelings and words because he had an idea in his head of them being the perfect celeb Christian couple and refused to let that go. 

Hannah seemed to also have some preconceived notion of them being the perfect Christian couple. Unfortunately for them both they don't share the same idea of what a perfect Christian couple should be. Neither is wrong as belief is a very personal thing and there are as many ways to be Christian as there are to be human. It is just that they were not compatible but both were too far into their own fantasy version of Lunnah Lukah (whatever their little coupling would be called, maybe Trainwreck?) that they couldn't see how wrong for each other they really were. 

They were two very young, inexperienced in life, stuck in their ways narcissists who should never date each other. Their relationship is the poster child for toxic. 

I wish Luke hadn't been on the show because I think Hannah was so all in with him that we didn't really get a season of Bachelorette as much as a season of toxic obsession gone bad. 

[Crs97]

8 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

That is the genesis of it, yes, but I don't think it should be only about a sexual act. I think anyone should have the right to end a relationship that isn't working for them or is harmful (physically, emotionally, financially, whateverally) without the other person steamrolling their wishes and telling them they are wrong. 

Well said!  If a woman breaks up with someone and he refuses to leave her alone, that isn’t a weak woman wanting to be coddled.  That is a scary, controlling man for whom stalking laws are written.  I think the producers were awful to continue to let him back after she eliminated him.  I know it makes for drama, but it’s a terrible message.  Not that we should be taking any lessons from the show, but I hate how it feeds into the trope of how women don’t really know what they want until a man tells them.

[Just Carol]

As a villain, Luke is a pretty sad one.  He is way too trusting to be a real villain. Most of the villains on TB are the ones whose attitude is "I'm not here to make friends."  I think Luke wanted to be liked.  Also, I think his problems started when he kissed Hannah on the first group date.  The other guys were pissed at that, and it didn't really even involve them.  They scoffed at him when he said he was falling in love with her.  Luke was on the defensive the whole season.  That has to mess with a person's head.  

On a separate topic, how about Jed's reaction when Luke left?  I have never seen anyone more stoked.  He was laughing, crying, jumping, fist pumping, every kind of celebrating.

[Mabinogia]

6 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I think the producers were awful to continue to let him back after she eliminated him.  I know it makes for drama, but it’s a terrible message.  Not that we should be taking any lessons from the show, but I hate how it feeds into the trope of how women don’t really know what they want until a man tells them.

Yes. I hate that they let it happen over and over. It was cruel to Hannah, who had a hard time letting go and shouldn't have had him thrust back into her orbit after finally getting the strength to kick him out. It was cruel to Luke who is clearly not that smart and was rewarded for being a predator. And it was cruel to the audience who sat through this mess of a season. 

Sadly, there are impressionable people who will look at Luke as some sort of alpha male hero, trying to bring back the "biblical ideals" of obedient women. I really wish Luke was an anomaly but there are plenty more out there like him. I wish that if any lesson were learned from this season it is women learning that the behaviour Luke showed is not acceptable. No one should be told how they feel or what they are allowed to think. No one should be forced to be in a relationship just because the other person demands it. 

I think Hannah finally learned that lesson and was able to let Luke go (three times! Thanks a lot fucking Producers!) and I hope other women can see it too. It saddens me that there are women out there who think Luke's behaviour is swoon worthy.

[bosawks]

13 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Sadly, there are impressionable people who will look at Luke as some sort of alpha male hero, trying to bring back the "biblical ideals" of obedient women. I really wish Luke was an anomaly but there are plenty more out there like him. I wish that if any lesson were learned from this season it is women learning that the behaviour Luke showed is not acceptable. No one should be told how they feel or what they are allowed to think. No one should be forced to be in a relationship just because the other person demands it. 

Hopefully people learn that giving multiple chances to others when there is a need for either of you to fundamentally change who you are in order to be compatible is a recipe for disaster.

I'm agnostic and in order for a relationship to work I have to go to church and follow church dictum  that's a problem.

Unless they mean Church's Chicken, that I could probably swing.

[JudyObscure]

46 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Well said!  If a woman breaks up with someone and he refuses to leave her alone, that isn’t a weak woman wanting to be coddled.  That is a scary, controlling man for whom stalking laws are written

Wasn't this all part of that same day where they had both  been madly in love in the afternoon?  Sure, Luke should have gone straight home the minute she showed him what she could be  like at the first breath of anything other than lavish praise,  but I'm just not ready to get a restraining order on a guy until he's had a day or two to realize there's no  chance to work it out. 

What if the man gets mad at the woman and tells her it's all off because she flirted at the party?  Is she allowed to come by the next day and try to make up?