S15.E11: The Men Tell All

[LuvMyShows]

One thing I wonder about, but the show gave us no insight about at all, is what the guys were thinking during her Speech of Surroundedness.  Tyler had just heard that Hannah def had sex on one of the FS dates, but he knows it wasn't with him!  That had to have stung, regardless of the reason she gave him.  Also, she said something about her initial 'soul connection' with Luke.  Dagger.  They know she didn't say anything like that about them.  Hearing things like that takes awhile to process, even if on a rational level, you know that Luke is no longer in the competition.

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

He's going to go home and going to get positive reinforcement from inside his church/family bubble and negative from everywhere else.  

That's the part that intrigues me.  He confessed to having done a lot of unflattering things, so how will his family react?  Will they just write it off as him having been in a stressful situation, and go back to their blinders-on worship of him?  IIRC his family is religious as well, so for him to have described himself as the spiritual leader of the household, is very telling about the dynamic in the house.  (Yes I know that Hannah described herself that way as well, but we haven't been exposed to family-and-friends Hannah worship like we were to Luke...maybe we'll see that in the finale, when we see her at home.)

15 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

Moving the rose pedestal will be my favorite moment from this season! 

And although many things in that whole scene seemed staged (like when Hannah rounded the corner to the rose ceremony, saw Luke was there, and had no reaction of surprise/disgust on her face) the pedestal moving seemed to be genuinely born out of extreme frustration. 

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

At least Luke did feel something for Hannah and didn’t play anyone. Luke’s got issues, but I totally believe he cared for Hannah in a way most of these contestants never do on this show. I was skeptical because of just how quickly he said he was falling for her, but I do think there was something.

Yes there was something, but it was control.  From the moment he got the first impression rose, he thought he had it in the bag (he has even admitted to this).  Thus Hannah became the object he had to protect at all costs so that he would win, and not let any of the other guys humiliate him by stealing his girl prize.  It was the perfect storm for someone with his type of religious beliefs as the background.  I do believe that he had convinced himself that it was love, but I do not for a second believe that it was based on caring for her.

[Irritable]

They spent an entire hour trying to make Luke say words that he just doesn’t seem capable of saying.  He’s not bright, he’s not articulate, and he truly does seem to have some kind of mental disorder.  He’s infuriating, sure, but he’s also clearly limited when it comes to communicating. No one should have to go back and reword EVERYTHING  they say to “make sure [other people] understand him”.  He lives in a world where he truly believes he’s being misunderstood by most everyone he’s talking to, and that has to be incredibly frustrating. Hence all the fist clenching, he’s so sick of other people “twisting his words” when actually they heard him loud and clear the first time, thy just didn’t react in the way he wanted and expected them too. 

Last night reminded me a bit of a Real Housewives of New York season where Kelly Bensimon said all this awful, crazy sounding, snobby as hell stuff, specifically about and to Bethenny.  When Bethenny finally snapped at her, Kelly was SO CONFUSED and terrified because she could not comprehend that she was the one who instigated all of it.  The whole group of women went in on her, but finally Sonja recognized that they needed to just stop because something was very wrong with Kelly psychologically, and you can’t reason with someone in that state, nor should you attack them.

Also, living in Georgia myself, I know that where Luke comes from - Gainesville - it’s a very rural area, lots of country folk, simple living, not really on the cutting edge of things.  He would absolutely be considered a catch there, by girls who hadn’t been exposed yet to guys like Mike or Tyler. Church is huge, he presents himself as godly, he was likely never questioned about why he’s such an incredible douchebag before.  He came into this thinking he was the Ideal Man.  He thought he had the whole thing won on the first night. He thought this show would be one opportunity after another to show America what husband material looks like.  And instead, this happened.

I don’t like Luke at all, but I certainly feel a bit sorry for him.  He was coached to stop and think carefully before he answered any questions last night, which he did to a painful extreme, and then he still couldn’t come up with words that conveyed any true self awareness.  He needs a lot of professional help before he can ever be a good life partner for anyone, but he is cursed to never believe that he needs that help.  It’s the hardest part about personality disorders, to get the person to understand something is wrong inside them, and not with literally everyone else.  

[Stinamaia]

14 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Who the fuck is this guy? This year’s “no one ever heard you speak and now you’re trying to get face time. He had to bring his own roses embroidered on his jacket. 

I’m the only Devin fan. 

I love the way he looks.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

10 minutes ago, Irritable said:

They spent an entire hour trying to make Luke say words that he just doesn’t seem capable of saying.  He’s not bright, he’s not articulate, and he truly does seem to have some kind of mental disorder.  

I agree.  Except I will add psychological as well.  

[Irritable]

Yes, I guess I’m putting psychological/mental/personality disorder all under the same umbrella in his case.  I’m not qualified to diagnose him, but I have a lot of experience with disorders, my own and others, so his shows vividly to me, although I don’t know specifically what all of his challenges are. But man, they sure do manifest and present themselves in the form of asshole.  No fun for anyone involved.

[Soobs]

I kept yelling at my screen, "it's a game show where one contestant gets a shot at dating the lead!" The whole engagement part with the ring, down on one knee etc is just for TV ratings drama and largely meaningless.

I would not be surprised if Luke wasn't that familiar with the format and bought into the fairy tale bs.  Not an excuse but an explanation for some of his behavior.

That being said, I think Luke is a really controlling guy who has the potential to be abusive (emotional if not physical) and in the climate we are currently in, it's necessary to call that behavior out. A lot of the male contestants did do that (no means no) and it was nice to see. In the larger scheme of things, when I think about say teenage girls watching this show, it's been a good season with it a lot of important issues being brought up.

I would like to see older contestants. Imagine if everyone was in their 30's how differently these relationships would play out.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Soobs

[Bachelor Fan]

Does anyone else feel ABC is only shedding Luke P in a negative light? I agree he is a little insane, but he is obviously in love with Hannah and was willing to go back to fight for her. Love makes you crazy. His faith is also being criticized when he is literally stating commands from the Bible about how a man is to lead his wife. 1 Corinthians 11:3 says ..."the head of a wife is her husband". I'm all about equal opportunities and women empowerment, but men were created to be leaders. He also received a lot of hate for questioning her if she had slept with the other men just days before he thought he would be proposing to her. I don't really see a problem here. I understand people have different beliefs, but from the stand point of a Christian myself, I don't understand where all of the bashing on these topics is coming from, especially after he told her he wasn't judging her.  What are your thoughts?

[Crs97]

Even when he is thrown out, he changes the narrative to “I will excuse myself.”  No, she tossed you out and the other guys were prepared to help make you go.  She tells him and everyone she wants him to leave, and he tells her she has to look him in the eyes first.  I know people aren’t happy when others toss around mental diagnoses to describe someone, but I have to say that ascribing his behavior to a problem that can be treated with therapy and/or medication might be the most generous characterization of Luke.  I hope he sees himself and gets the help he needs, whether it be spiritual or whatever.  Having his family play the “victim of a bad edit” card does not fill me with hope.

Someone asked if Peter spoke up during all that, and he did.  I think it was just saying again that he needed to leave.

[Palomar]

I think most if not all of Luke coming back was staged.  You KNOW they have security and under normal circumstances he would not be allowed back even close to where they were filming. Bad actor or true psycho?  Whatever, please let this be the last time he is on a Bachelor-related screen! Dude is cringe-worthy.

[Stinamaia]

9 minutes ago, Bachelor Fan said:

Does anyone else feel ABC is only shedding Luke P in a negative light? I agree he is a little insane, but he is obviously in love with Hannah and was willing to go back to fight for her. Love makes you crazy. His faith is also being criticized when he is literally stating commands from the Bible about how a man is to lead his wife. 1 Corinthians 11:3 says ..."the head of a wife is her husband". I'm all about equal opportunities and women empowerment, but men were created to be leaders. He also received a lot of hate for questioning her if she had slept with the other men just days before he thought he would be proposing to her. I don't really see a problem here. I understand people have different beliefs, but from the stand point of a Christian myself, I don't understand where all of the bashing on these topics is coming from, especially after he told her he wasn't judging her.  What are your thoughts?

I disagree that Luke is/was in love with Hannah. I think he was in love with the vision he had of Hannah and he being the chosen couple and going on a tour as the Christian ideal.  He has reduced that now to only himself as the shining ideal. There are plenty of things to pick and choose from in the Bible.  One passage that Luke seems to overlook is Matthew 6: 1-6. 

I don’t think Hannah is some sort of feminist ideal though.  I do admire her refusal to let Luke define her or coerce her feelings with his words.  

[DEL901]

5 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

I disagree that Luke is/was in love with Hannah. I think he was in love with the vision he had of Hannah and he being the chosen couple and going on a tour as the Christian ideal.  He has reduced that now to only himself as the shining ideal. There are plenty of things to pick and choose from in the Bible.  One passage that Luke seems to overlook is Matthew 6: 1-6. 

I don’t think Hannah is some sort of feminist ideal though.  I do admire her refusal to let Luke define her or coerce her feelings with his words.  

I agree.  He didn't even really know her.  And didn't seem to care.  As you state, he had a vision of her in his head and would get frustrated when she had her own thoughts.

But even if he was, does that really matter?  Just because someone loves you, you are under no obligation to love them back.  Or give them a chance.  Or anything but a restraining order when they won't take no for an answer.

[nutty1]

1 hour ago, Bachelor Fan said:

Does anyone else feel ABC is only shedding Luke P in a negative light? I agree he is a little insane, but he is obviously in love with Hannah and was willing to go back to fight for her. Love makes you crazy. His faith is also being criticized when he is literally stating commands from the Bible about how a man is to lead his wife. 1 Corinthians 11:3 says ..."the head of a wife is her husband". I'm all about equal opportunities and women empowerment, but men were created to be leaders. He also received a lot of hate for questioning her if she had slept with the other men just days before he thought he would be proposing to her. I don't really see a problem here. I understand people have different beliefs, but from the stand point of a Christian myself, I don't understand where all of the bashing on these topics is coming from, especially after he told her he wasn't judging her.  What are your thoughts?

It’s well know that ABC has a storyboard. There will always  be a villain. Luke was the lucky one to get that role assigned to him. And he was “in love” with Hannah, while he was in the Bachelor bubble. Many contestants admit to this. As far as sleeping with other men prior to an engagement, I agree it’s not right, under normal circumstances. But this wasn’t the real world and Luke was not mentally functioning in the Bachelor world. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by nutty1

[tinkerbell]

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I didn’t like the Luke pile on but I’m beginning to wonder if some of this was cooked up by producers including Luke returning to the rose ceremony.

I still don’t like Hannah and her comment to Luke that the fantasy suite is not about sex doesn’t match up with her telling him about f’ing in windmills. I also don’t understand her intense rage at a guy who she says she has no feelings for. I’m wondering if her rage is because she knows Luke is the only one of her final guys who really has feelings for her.

Luke was ALREADY eliminated in a previous episode, then the producers allowed him back.  Then, he told Hannah if she had already had sex with one of the other men, he would leave, she said OK leave, and then he was allowed back AGAIN.  After that too-long stand-off where she insists on walking him to the limo, but he refused to go.  Why didn't the producers allow Hannah to just walk away?  No, she had to stay until they had their last words.  And THEN, he was walked back in to the rose ceremony.  He didn't crash it, that's the story they want to tell.  If the show's producers respected that Hannah had eliminated him (twice)  he would have been on a plane back home. 

I suspect that the "handlers"  were talking to Luke offstage and telling him over and over, you got the first impression rose, that's huge, you have to go back and fight for her,  you'll see, as soon as she sees that you really do love her, she'll understand.  Don't give up!

Maybe Hannah's anger was at least partially directed at the manipulation going on, that she kept sending Luke home and he kept being allowed back.  Luke being there was messing up her ability to evaluate the other guys fairly.  The premise is that she gets to eliminate a guy, but they made exceptions for Luke, she wasn't allowed to eliminate him.   She's dating all these guys at once, and when she eliminates someone, she needs to be allowed to focus on the guys who remain.  

Edited July 23, 2019 by tinkerbell

[bosawks]

Can you imagine supervising Luke.

"You misconstrued what the clock said, the little hand only appeared to be on the 9 and the big hand on the 6.  The clock obviously has it in for me and is a known liar."

"When I said I wasn't going to do it, you only heard I wasn't going to do it, you didn't hear the part I didn't say that I was going to do it."

I sincerely hope he works in a family business.

[riff-raff]

That was unpleasant to watch.  An angry mob of people caught up in their own sense of righteous rage is a scary thing.  Watching that, I can understand how cruel punishments like putting people in stocks and public stonings took hold.   Save Matteo, there was no sense of "enough is enough."  Tyler, at least, watching from home, had the sense to recognize the ugliness and try to back away from it.  

The look of malice on Hannah's face as she laid into Luke at the MTA changed my opinion of her.  It's one thing to be immature and foolish.   It's another thing to relish and delight in hurting someone, and continuing to kick them when they are down.   I remember in Colton's season, she initiated a spat with the other pageant girl, Catelyn I think her name was.  When asked about it, Catelyn said something to the effect that she and Hannah got along great until something set her off and things went completely south.  

Here she went from making out with Luke and swooning about his kissing during one half the date, to screaming with rage and giving him the finger a few hours later.  If she didn't appreciate that Luke was hoping for a woman who shared his desire to abstain until marriage, there were many ways to get that point across without screaming and swearing.  

To be clear, I didn't appreciate Luke's returning and then refusing to leave.  It was uncomfortable, and his behavior definitely merited some anger and push back.  

But I never saw him engage in casual cruelty or delight in hurting or belittling someone like I saw from Hannah and her bro-pack.   There was a lot of screeching about how Luke needed to improve himself.  Maybe these folks should spend some time examining themselves.  

Edited July 23, 2019 by riff-raff

[the eskimo]

The thing is, Luke has very little ability to express himself. I have no doubt that he and I would disagree about pretty much everything in life, but I felt bad for him that he couldn't defend himself properly. 

He has every right to want to propose to someone who hasn't slept with another guy recently. The way he said it was horrible and did sound like "shaming," but he should discuss those matters with his potential life partner if it's important to him. 

Even Hannah seems to go back and forth on the subject. Last night, she gave her I can have sex speech, but she also said something about how her faith is based on love, and that she is a person who makes mistakes. So does she consider sleeping with Peter (and possibly Jed) a mistake? That's pretty much what Luke was saying. That if she "slipped up" he could get over it. 

Bottom line, he has every right to want a wife who shares his values and she has every right to dump his ass for absolutely any reason, and both of them should respect that about each other. He certainly had reason to believe that she shared some of these values.

Hopefully he will learn how to present himself better and tone down/eliminate the controlling behavior. But I always bristle at mob mentality, and seeing a group of people lay into him incessantly wasn't much fun. The podium move was, though 🙂

[zoltana]

2 hours ago, Soobs said:

I would like to see older contestants. Imagine if everyone was in their 30's how differently these relationships would play out.

I actually love this idea.  No offense to mature people in their early 20's, but I really think anyone under 25, 26 is to young.  I got married at 25 and 30 years later know that it was to soon.  That's not the case for everyone.  I would love to see older, more established individuals going through this because there would be more experience and maturity.  I don't think someone 20, 21 years old has the experience to go on a "dating" show and find true long, lasting love.  

[Captain Asshat]

2 hours ago, Bachelor Fan said:

Does anyone else feel ABC is only shedding Luke P in a negative light? I agree he is a little insane, but he is obviously in love with Hannah and was willing to go back to fight for her. Love makes you crazy.

No. I think Luke did a great job, all by himself, of shining himself in a negative light. He body slammed someone. He said to someone, "Sure, I'll totally tell Hanna XYZ," and then promptly told Hannah the opposite of XYZ." ABC simply allowed him to do these things. ABC saw the potential draaaaama in letting him return/talking him into returning. And ABC did a great job of manipulating an immature egomaniac into doing stupid things. 

Quote

His faith is also being criticized when he is literally stating commands from the Bible about how a man is to lead his wife. 1 Corinthians 11:3 says ..."the head of a wife is her husband". I'm all about equal opportunities and women empowerment, but men were created to be leaders. He also received a lot of hate for questioning her if she had slept with the other men just days before he thought he would be proposing to her. I don't really see a problem here. I understand people have different beliefs, but from the stand point of a Christian myself, I don't understand where all of the bashing on these topics is coming from, especially after he told her he wasn't judging her.  What are your thoughts?

I'm not a Christian, so I have no idea what Corinthians or anything else in the NT says, much less actually means. It's clear that Luke and Hannah belong to different denominations, though. Luke is clearly more evangelical/fundamentalist than Hannah. Surely Hannah would have noticed that during the hometown date. How that didn't set off alarms in her head, I don't know. I have my own Hannah thoughts, but I don't want to digress too far from this topic. I believe Luke didn't believe he was judging her, but his comments were certainly judgmental. I can totally see how Hannah would construe "We can work through your slip up" as being judged and/or shamed, because she didn't believe she had slipped up. Who was he to make that determination, pray over (not with) her for it, and work through it. And I think that difference in thought/faith, alone, should have told Luke she is not the woman for him, and he should have kept to his word and 100% left. 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Captain Asshat

[Crs97]

The reaction from the other guys in the house toward Luke didn't come out of nowhere.  Even at this final rose ceremony when they are at the end of their rope with him, they still were trying to be nice.  When Hannah said that she didn't want to listen to him, Tyler says gently, "She said no, bro.  Just come back in line."  They finally surrounded him because they thought Hannah needed protection.  Let that sink in for a moment.  Even then, they tried to remain pleasant until he threatened Jed.  I'm not buying the victim story he's trying to sell.

[Kendra143]

I actually thought Luke got off easy. It wasn’t a mob of men screaming obscenities at him all at once. They took turns spoke quietly and said their piece. This comeuppance for Luke has been long overdue. He behaved badly and without thought about anyone but himself. All the damn season, week after week...

[LuvMyShows]

28 minutes ago, riff-raff said:

There was a lot of screeching about how Luke needed to improve himself.  Maybe these folks should spend some time examining themselves.  

This is part of what bugs me about Mike.  He was a leader of the pack last night in terms of slamming Luke, including calling him psychotic (which I don't think he is, although I really truly can't stand Luke).  The way he delivered his 'critique' of Luke, so calmly and as though delivered from on high, was really annoying, but it was in keeping with what we've seen from Mike all along (and which I commented on at the very beginning).  He seems to say things that sound very rehearsed, and I think he is very impressed with himself.  He seems like a nice guy, and he may make a good bachelor (he was certainly auditioning yesterday), but I question if he can ever be unguarded and genuine. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

59 minutes ago, riff-raff said:

That was unpleasant to watch.  An angry mob of people caught up in their own sense of righteous rage is a scary thing.  

I'm really surprised at this perception.  All of the men were calm.  Yes, Luke clenched his fists a few times, and later walked off the set, but the men talking to him were all extremely calm.  Nobody raised their voice, nobody was angry, nobody screamed.  Devin calmly walked over to voice his opinion.  Other Luke calmly sat back and voiced his opinion.  Mike calmly voiced his opinion.  And on and on and on.  They just all happened to share the same opinion.  That's not an "angry mob".  Nobody showed "rage".

It was more like a focus group.  It's not inherently scary when a group of people all share the same opinion about one person, especially when they have actual experience with that person, and use detailed evidence and events to back that opinion up.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[StatisticalOutlier]

19 hours ago, talktoomuch said:

What in the Liberace hell is Devin wearing???? I know I'm too old now...

What about the pants on the F3 at the rose ceremony?  They were all skin-tight on the thighs, and Peter's jacket looked like it was tailored for a small child. 

.

18 hours ago, EllenB said:

Garrett has some nice face.

Can't say I agree.  However, even worse is, What happens to his hair when he goes swimming?  I'm thinking it looks just like Hitler's.

.

17 hours ago, nutty1 said:

I’ve said it many times, but that girl must have been one tough Bachelorette. Probably drove the producers crazy. What was she doing when she fell?!

Walking, it looked like. 

.

17 hours ago, hyacinth said:

JP Jones told Hannah not to tell him what to do!!    My new hero.  

Mine too!  I didn't watch the season until the last couple of episodes, so I didn't know anything about him, and I thought there was nothing in the world worse than people who constantly run their fingers through their hair, but his hair swinging disabused me of that notion with a quickness.  But I think there's something about him I like.

.

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I didn’t like the Luke pile on but I’m beginning to wonder if some of this was cooked up by producers including Luke returning to the rose ceremony.

Of course it was.  As others have said, one of the things the producers do is tell the combatants things that will influence their behavior, if not outright suggest doing certain things.  And of course they have to facilitate everything.  Luke didn't sneak back into the rose ceremony unnoticed, and I don't think he brought that engagement ring with him from home.

That said, I'm having trouble deciding which is more delicious--Hannah's podium repositioning or little Luke solemnly standing there at the end of the lineup like he had a right to be there.

.

6 hours ago, nutty1 said:

And Tyler is all of 26 now, LOL!

But he looks like he's 40.

.

4 hours ago, Just Carol said:

If Luke were better at expressing himself, I think what he meant to say was that his love for Hannah was tested, and love won.  He had hoped she shared his views on sex before marriage; she didn't. He hoped that she would not sleep any of with the other guys; she did.  He had thought that if that were the case that he would walk away from the relationship.  But when push came to shove, he could not.  His love for her was stronger than his dictums. 

Thanks for stating that so clearly.  I was annoyed with him issuing an edict and then backing down when it turned out she hadn't conformed, but now I can (kind of) see what he was doing.  Still--if it's not really a dealbreaker, don't say it is.

[GracieK]

Sometimes words alone can infer a certain sense of anger or violence.  Calling someone a psychopath, even if said calmly, is going a little far, particularly when you have 25 other guys and an audience full of people clapping and agreeing.  After Connnor said "You're a liar, manipulator, you're controlling, and you honestly are a psychopath, and I think everything you're about to hear tonight you deserve."  Luke responds with "It hurt me to watch that season and to watch myself. I did make it about me. I boldfaced lied to some of you guys. I was extremely immature and I realize those things. I hope you can support me as I work on those things and forgive me."  And then Mike chimes in ""I completely do not accept your apology".  

Luke deserved a lot of vitriol.. particularly as he really lost what little support or sympathy he had left with that last episode.  Refusing to leave when Hannah was very clear that she wanted him gone was going too far.  But of course, TPTB calculated showing that RIGHT before Luke comes out so the audience is primed and ready to attack. 

I guess for me, Luke is obviously very.. limited.  He's not intelligent in a traditional sense and certainly not in an emotional sense.  And anyone who IS reasonably intelligent should be able to see that.  You don't need to pile on someone who just isn't going to get it.  It does come across as bullying to those that can see he's got some issues.  

[Stinamaia]

52 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

This is part of what bugs me about Mike.  He was a leader of the pack last night in terms of slamming Luke, including calling him psychotic (which I don't think he is, although I really truly can't stand Luke).  The way he delivered his 'critique' of Luke, so calmly and as though delivered from on high, was really annoying, but it was in keeping with what we've seen from Mike all along (and which I commented on at the very beginning).  He seems to say things that sound very rehearsed, and I think he is very impressed with himself.  He seems like a nice guy, and he may make a good bachelor (he was certainly auditioning yesterday), but I question if he can ever be unguarded and genuine. 

What put me off Mike was him telling Hannah  things about Cam. At least one thing was something Mike surmised, not something he actually heard, yet he presented it as fact.  He had no reason to be threatened by hapless Cam. It struck me as mean. 

[JenLily]

20 hours ago, valen said:

In the "real world" it would be unimaginable to sleep with two other people mere days before becoming engaged. But, in The Bachelor/ette world, it is extremely common. Anyone that goes on this show should know that. . . Normally, when two people are in a serious, committed relationship, it wouldn't even be a question. But these two? They are not in a serious, committed relationship. They barely know each other. He knew exactly how this show worked and what he signed up for when he came on. There is no excuse for now getting upset at the way the show has worked since its very inception. . .

Now, after all that, I will say, that the very format I have been defending is also probably a lot of why few of these relationships work out. It would be very hard to get past your significant other sleeping with multiple other partners days before he/she asks to marry you. 

I think it's interesting that we as the viewing public have even come to think of having sex with multiple people immediately prior to an engagement as "extremely common," even within this world. There's literally no reason for these people to do it. None. None of them are getting married straight after filming. Sex can wait. You're right, they barely know each other so why should it be expected that they sleep with each other so soon? If the lead wants to do it, they should make it abundantly clear to their final three/four that they're going to be doing it so that *they* can decide if that's something they're all right with, instead of pretending that Fantasy Suites "isn't all about sex," the way Hannah is trying to bullshit after the fact. She went into that week planning on banging those men, she was crowing about it. But I don't think she made her position on sleeping with these guys clear to Luke. He watched her on Colton's season crying about how she regrets that she won't be a virgin on her wedding day. By both of their admission, they had multiple discussions that we never saw about how important their faith was to them. He had no reason to believe that she wasn't on the same page with him about not having sex in the Fantasy Suites. And I think that just because *we* expect these people to be banging it out, it's not fair to hold it against Luke that *he* didn't.

19 hours ago, GracieK said:

Sorry but Hannah is full of shit.  She was full on dancing and bow chica wow wowing about “the fantasy suite week”. She made a lot of her relationships about the physical by what she put on display. Just own it and stop trying to make this some feminist trope or something deeper than what it was. If the Bachelor was dancing about getting it on in the fantasy suite I don’t think that would have been received very well or that anyone would claim that the guy really cared about anything deeper than “fucking in a windmill” or whatever locale it happened to be in. 

I can't like this enough. She wanted to have sex with these guys, she was looking forward to it.

19 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I feel like I just watched a two hour lynching.  The mob mentality in the audience was sickening, Hannah was milking her scarlet letter routine for all it was worth as she played to her crowd. and the superior, smug,  unforgiving group of bachelors was the worst. Matteo was the only person in the room with a human heart.  

I really was so pleased that at least one person in that room was uncomfortable with what they were doing. I hated Luke all season and I still didn't like seeing him get kicked from all sides. Then again, this part of MTA/WTA always makes me cringe.

8 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I think this is a correct analysis: 

“I truly believe Luke at 30 years old would have handled things a lot differently. We mature and grow so much in our 20’s. I know I’m a different person from the kid I was at 24.”

Tyler C tweeted it.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Luke's only 24 years old. People are cutting Hannah a lot of slack for being young and not knowing what she should or shouldn't be wanting in a relationship yet, while not giving Luke that same consideration.

6 hours ago, LBS said:

Things I hated during the MTA:

- Hannah's rose ceremony dress.   What the hell was that contraption? 

God, that dress was hideous. Whoever told her it was a good idea should be out of a job.

6 hours ago, Just Carol said:

I don't think he "shamed" her -- except that I do think she felt ashamed, and she channeled that shame into hatred for Luke. 

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think she was delighted about having sex with all the guys, but when Luke said that it wasn't something he'd be okay with, she suddenly had second thoughts of what it might look like, got embarrassed, and took it out on him.

I want to be really clear here that I am not a fan of Luke's. He's been a real turd all season. I guess I just don't think that Hannah deserves any adulation or praise for her performance either. To me, she's coming out smelling pretty shitty, too.

Edited July 23, 2019 by JenLily

[EllenB]

I think any "piling on" of Luke by the other guys was more in the way of an intervention than a mob action.  But i doubt if his egotistical brand of Christianity will allow him to see his own faults, because he acts like he thinks he's a saint.

[JudyObscure]

37 minutes ago, GracieK said:

Luke responds with "It hurt me to watch that season and to watch myself. I did make it about me. I boldfaced lied to some of you guys. I was extremely immature and I realize those things. I hope you can support me as I work on those things and forgive me."  And then Mike chimes in ""I completely do not accept your apology".  

That was the moment I quit liking Mike.  He has admitted that he got a woman pregnant and then wasn't there for her through her miscarriage.  He seemed sorry about that.  He also seemed to expect that Hannah and the viewing audience would accept his implied apology. Fine. Yet Mike can't bring himself to forgive Luke for what he did to Hannah, which  pretty much just consisted of  saying he would be upset if she had sex with the other guys and taking up some of her time.

[b2H]

5 hours ago, Irritable said:

He needs a lot of professional help before he can ever be a good life partner for anyone,

I don't know - there're probably a whole lot of women out there who'd be more than happy with his ways.  Hannah wasn't the one.

[Nika]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm really surprised at this perception.  All of the men were calm.  Yes, Luke clenched his fists a few times, and later walked off the set, but the men talking to him were all extremely calm.  Nobody raised their voice, nobody was angry, nobody screamed.  Devin calmly walked over to voice his opinion.  Other Luke calmly sat back and voiced his opinion.  Mike calmly voiced his opinion.  And on and on and on.  They just all happened to share the same opinion.  That's not an "angry mob".  Nobody showed "rage".

It was more like a focus group.  It's not inherently scary when a group of people all share the same opinion about one person, especially when they have actual experience with that person, and use detailed evidence and events to back that opinion up.

Actually I always become more alert when the vast majority of people shares the same opinion on sth. Exactly in these moments I raise my awareness and question the very same thing everybody supports. Majority is not always right and democracy is not the perfect political system, it has its flaws. Many times over the course of history the majority stood for people and ideas which were purely devil. 

Therefore, to me it is very important to voice a contrasting opinion (of someone like Matteo) in these situations. I hate sheep mentality and people who turn their brains off just because "everyone" thinks/does something and they feel the compulsive need to join them without examining the situation by themselves. 

The voice of Matteo was the most welcome by me, it somehow eased me a bit during Luke's "trial". 

Ps. It is not to defend Luke. It is bigger than Luke. And I am glad some people still have some ephathy for "the villain"

Edited July 23, 2019 by Nika

[Crs97]

39 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yet Mike can't bring himself to forgive Luke for what he did to Hannah, which  pretty much just consisted of  saying he would be upset if she had sex with the other guys and taking up some of her time.

I don’t have a problem with your post - your feelings regarding Mike are your own and certainly valid - but Luke did a lot more than just state his opinion about premarital sex.  Trying to whitewash the rest of his bad behavior is what is getting Luke in further trouble.  Let’s not help him dig his hole any deeper.

[Haute Messe]

8 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I think this is a correct analysis: 

“I truly believe Luke at 30 years old would have handled things a lot differently. We mature and grow so much in our 20’s. I know I’m a different person from the kid I was at 24.”

Tyler C tweeted it.

Yes, and I think the same can be said for Hannah.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Nika said:

Actually I always become more alert when the vast majority of people shares the same opinion on sth. Exactly in these moments I raise my awareness and question the very same thing everybody supports. Majority is not always right and democracy is not the perfect political system, it has its flaws. Many times over the course of history the majority stood for people and ideas which were purely devil. 

Like I said, providing evidence and concrete situations for your opinion is not rageful or scary.  To me it is the complete opposite.  It is rational.  I'm not talking about voting for a contestant on American Idol or exercising your right to vote.  That's apples and oranges, because anyone can vote for any one for any reason and that's completely allowed.  The comparison is not relevant in my opinion.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Nika said:

Therefore, to me it is very important to voice a contrasting opinion (of someone like Matteo) in these situations. I hate sheep mentality and people who turn their brains off just because "everyone" thinks/does something and they feel the compulsive need to join them without examining the situation by themselves. 

Trusting an opinion just because it's the different one is as illogical as trusting an opinion simply because it's the majority (IMO).  "Devil's advocate" holds no value to me. All of those men examined the situations for themselves and no one piled on without a stated reason or personal experience with Luke.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Nika]

Ms Blue Jay, let's agree to disagree. You didn't get my point. It is not about playing devil's advocate, it is about critical thinking. And I am glad that Matteo didn't join the choir but analyzed the situation for himself and expressed his stance ( I personally disagree with his view but I utterly respect it and applaud him for critical thinking)  

Edited July 23, 2019 by Nika

[Stats Queen]

7 hours ago, Irritable said:

Yes, I guess I’m putting psychological/mental/personality disorder all under the same umbrella in his case.  I’m not qualified to diagnose him, but I have a lot of experience with disorders, my own and others, so his shows vividly to me, although I don’t know specifically what all of his challenges are. But man, they sure do manifest and present themselves in the form of asshole.  No fun for anyone involved.

Seriously,

As I’ve said before on this forum, Luke’s behavior triggered nightmares of my ex-husband, who acted the same way, including manipulating and barely controlled rage.

That being said, I much as I despise him and that he sends out 10,000 real large red flags, not even a trained psychologist can state that he has a psychological or mental disorder. However, it is fair to say that his behavior and reactions are similar to others with those traits.

7 hours ago, Irritable said:

Also, living in Georgia myself, I know that where Luke comes from - Gainesville - it’s a very rural area, lots of country folk, simple living, not really on the cutting edge of things.  He would absolutely be considered a catch there, by girls who hadn’t been exposed yet to guys like Mike or Tyler. Church is huge, he presents himself as godly, he was likely never questioned about why he’s such an incredible douchebag before.

I live in Georgia also, in metro Atlanta, Lawrenceville, and am about 30-40 minutes away from Gainesville. Gainesville overall is no longer very rural. He might be a catch to some women who go to the type of church he does, but not to women in that area in general. I do agree Church is big in Georgia but Church takes many forms.

[Stats Queen]

4 hours ago, Captain Asshat said:

No. I think Luke did a great job, all by himself, of shining himself in a negative light. He body slammed someone. He said to someone, "Sure, I'll totally tell Hanna XYZ," and then promptly told Hannah the opposite of XYZ." ABC simply allowed him to do these things. ABC saw the potential draaaaama in letting him return/talking him into returning. And ABC did a great job of manipulating an immature egomaniac into doing stupid things. 

You said this beyond elegantly!! thank you for that.

[operakatz]

7 hours ago, Soobs said:

That being said, I think Luke is a really controlling guy who has the potential to be abusive (emotional if not physical) and in the climate we are currently in, it's necessary to call that behavior out. A lot of the male contestants did do that (no means no) and it was nice to see. In the larger scheme of things, when I think about say teenage girls watching this show, it's been a good season with it a lot of important issues being brought up.

Regardless of any producer manipulation or editing, Luke clearly and regularly showed the red flag of using gaslighting as a go-to response to being challenged. That is a very concerning character trait.

[Nvmyprixgt]

I wish Luke flipped the script and went in on the guys and even the audience members. It would’ve been so easy. His opinions on sex are true majority, not the minority.

[Kiss my mutt]

After all the crying at the rose ceremonies I’m starting to wonder if Hannah just doesn’t pick anyone. Of course, Luke would be “a-ha, I knew it” and come after her with renewed determination. 

[Arkay]

I despised this episode. I know Luke just couldn't take the hint, but I think that's partly his fault and ALSO partly Hannah's. I think he was already deeply entrenched in believing Hannah reciprocated his emotions and morals, because she had led him to to think so in their unaired conversations. 

Yes, Luke isn't a virgin, but he's not being hypocritical about it. He had a conversion experience that made him decide to now abstain from sex until marriage. He thought Hannah felt the same;  and while she clearly didn't, he was stung by the ferocity he encountered from her so shortly after she told him they'd made it through a lot of their issues. I wish he had indeed removed himself from the situation as he'd said. He would have been spared the gleeful way she shoved it in his face. On the MTA when Hannah was thundering that the FS were not about sex, THAT was hypocritical because she was clearly eager for it to happen.

I certainly see problems with the way Luke and Hannah both conducted themselves, but I don't know that I would attribute that just to their ages. I was married at 21 and a mother by 24, and while I look back and think I was too young, I would not have acted as do either of them. 

Maybe its due to a very long career as a teacher, but I cannot tolerate bullying and that's what the MTA was focused upon. Unless all the contestants secretly hold degrees in psychiatry, or actually are in the field, no one has the right to publicly label someone as a psychopath, narcissist or whatever. Also,  Devin popping up onto the podium is clearly someone itching for camera time, as he had so little during the season.

Hannah's a lot of work. She wants to be worshipped and she wants the men to be macho and bold, but she reacts worse than Luke when she's criticized. 

Peter is the only remaining contestant whom I believed was there for her, but somewhere I read that he, too, had a girlfriend just prior to the show. Who's to know what's true about any of these people since so much is producer manipulation, anyway. I guess time will tell. 

[GracieK]

1 hour ago, ApolloSun said:

Exactly, SPOT on! --- did you notice the momentary stunned look on Hannah's face as Luke left a few minutes early?  She looked so incredulous, as if, "how dare you walk away first!!! -- I still wanted to get a few more jabs in and finish degrading you and then, maybe I can do some more grandstanding over how proud I am of my culturally accepted sluthood!"

I don't know if sluthood is a word but it definitely made me LMAO! 

[Dejana]

The premise of the franchise has the lead "dating" multiple people until picking a final one, often accepting a marriage proposal at that time. In the real world, most people also wouldn't like it if their fiancé(e) had been making out or even kissing somebody else a few days or week before getting engaged, either. IMO that is what people mean when they say that normal dating standards just don't apply in Bachelor world, even when you completely remove sex from the equation. Anyone can try to apply regular dating rules to this unique environment but it often doesn't go well and the lead's "closeness" (however you want to define that) to another contestant has caused problems with many post-show relationships. Granted, some of these Bachelor relationships have worked out long-term. Anyway, maybe Luke can turn this Bachelorette experience into something  constructive by his standards and help create a Christian dating show on the UP Network or something.

Last week, Ben Higgins said he was confused about Hannah thoughts on sex and faith, and thinks she's kind of been saying contradictory things about the issue. I feel like if this Luke/Hannah blow up were simply a theological disagreement and not tinged with so much possessivess and anger (and they were better at calmly expressing themselves) that Luke's counterargument to Hannah would have been more along those lines:

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/ben-higgins-bachelorette-hannahs-sex-confessions-are-confusing/

*

Chris Harrison did the Bachelor Party podcast, where he discussed the most recent episode:

Edited July 24, 2019 by Dejana

[TheFinalRose]

I have watched every season of this franchise (sans Ali's--because I didn't "like" her on Jake's season... guess that was when I thought "liking" the lead made a difference.)

Anywho, every season there is a villain.  And I've forgotten all of them except for one, Chad, who crossed the line by actually being physical with Evan, ripping his shirt. 

My point is that the villain is an integral part of this show. And production is going to make sure that they get their villain or two every season. This show thrives on humiliation/drama and they create an ecosystem where isolation, suggestibility, and the lure of love make some silly putty in their hands.  

Now here is when we say, "But production didn't make Luke say those controlling/psycho things." No, but production aided and abetted in Luke's performance. We don't know to what extent he was encouraged, goaded, etc. by the production peeps. Nor do we know to what extent they were in the other Luke's ear, or in Garrett's ear, questioning them about "villain" Luke, suggesting there was something "wrong" with Luke, and shouldn't they man up and challenge him?

Luke himself probably doesn't understand what happened, how letting him back on the show would intensify the narrative of him as a stalker, psycho, etc. Production could have told him that he and Hannah were a great love story and that is what the audience wants more than anything and being a fool in love, Luke kept coming back for her while production let him do so, then they sat behind their cameras snickering "this is going to be great!"

They continued the narrative even unto the previews of Luke stalking off the MTA set, seemingly in disgust, when we find out later that it was an approved exit ahead of time. Yes, Chris Harrison said he had to catch a plane, but the way he said it was dripping with "continue the narrative-ism-ish"

So I take this vilification of Luke with a side-eye. There has been ample time for his other ex-girlfriends to crawl out of the woodwork and say that yes, he was a controlling, psycho narcissist but .... crickets.  All I've seen online are reports of people who know Luke/worked with Luke who say he's the nicest guy ever. He showed up to the MTA, took his lumps, asked for forgiveness, then had to catch a plane to be in a wedding, because apparently, he has another life where he is not Ghengis Khan.  He gave us his pound of flesh already, IMO. 

So I hope for Luke's sake that his role as a villain is now over. The one thing about this show is that they will tear you down but then turn around and use you for BIP. So expect to see Luke on BIP not this year, but definitely, they will try to get him as the headliner for next summer, where they will do a redemption arc and he'll fall in love with the sweetest Bachelor castoff and get engaged at the end, gaining 500,000 Instagram followers at the same time. 

I 

[DEL901]

2 hours ago, operakatz said:

Regardless of any producer manipulation or editing, Luke clearly and regularly showed the red flag of using gaslighting as a go-to response to being challenged. That is a very concerning character trait.

Yup.  As well as it was always about his feelings and needs.   I don’t see the love...I see a need for control.   Hannah would always be “slipping” and he’d be praying over her.

He said that he had a lock on the win (or words to that effect) in the first couple of weeks.   Those aren’t words of love.   

That said, the guys shouldn’t have piled on.   Clearly Luke has issues and zero ability to see anyone else’s point of view, but calling out armchair psychiatric diagnoses was uncalled for.   We all saw the show.   They could have let Luke’s behaviour speak for itself.  

[LuvMyShows]

32 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

No, but production aided and abetted in Luke's performance. We don't know to what extent he was encouraged, goaded, etc. by the production peeps. 

I seriously doubt that during the MTA, production encouraged him to say that he wouldn't change a thing about how he behaved all season, and then turn around and directly say the exact opposite a few minutes later.  He did that over and over and over again all season, and yet also continued telling everyone that they misconstrued what he said, when they accurately tried to call him out on his nonsense.

[EllenB]

35 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

Absolutely true.  I totally got your meaning when you used that term. 

No.  Just no.  The meaning of words evolve over time, and the 20th century, most recent meaning, is racial.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/historical-current-events/lynching/

[TheFinalRose]

2 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I seriously doubt that during the MTA, production encouraged him to say that he wouldn't change a thing about how he behaved all season, and then turn around and directly say the exact opposite a few minutes later.  He did that over and over and over again all season, and yet also continued telling everyone that they misconstrued what he said, when they accurately tried to call him out on his nonsense.

Yes, but because he is the "villain" he is always asked to defend himself, and in so doing if he changes his tune he's a liar.  But even so, IMO it seems a crime very out of proportion to the outrage he's being subjected to. 

[Just Carol]

16 minutes ago, ApolloSun said:

I saw this too -- she was clearly unable to hide the thrill she got from bashing him time and time again -- it was really disgusting and cruel.  It seemed to be just an extension of what she's done all along -- rolling up a newspaper to swing at their noses whenever they stepped out of line.  

Yes, and I am concerned that this will become part of the "strong woman" lore.  Hannah has a temper and a mean streak.  Some people will point to her hissy fits and call it evidence of her being "strong."

[operakatz]

3 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I seriously doubt that during the MTA, production encouraged him to say that he wouldn't change a thing about how he behaved all season, and then turn around and directly say the exact opposite a few minutes later.  He did that over and over and over again all season, and yet also continued telling everyone that they misconstrued what he said, when they accurately tried to call him out on his nonsense.

Continued gaslighting. It appears, at least from what we saw, to be his go-to. And that is a red flag. He also seemed to insist on re-explaining over and over, refusing to allow anyone to have their own response to his words or behavior, as if only his view of things was reality.