S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Butless said:

He is not "special needs." He's a damn tree.

That explains his wooden personality

[Constantinople]

I'm not sure how happy Jon will be wandering North of the Wall.

I'm not saying he'll be miserable, or that he's not glad to be free of ruling Westeros, but he's always had goals.  Sometimes simple: join the Watch, become a ranger, find out who his mother is); sometimes more complicated: take back Winterfell from Ramsay, defeat the Night King, put Dany on the Iron Throne.

Now he's got nothing other than to wake up every day.

[BitterApple]

15 hours ago, Butless said:

My comment, that all the brown people were put on a ship and sailed off to an island, was not a comment on the competency of the Unsullied or Grey Worm.

It was a comment on how hamfisted, stupid, tone-deaf, and ultimately racist, the story was written to be by Benioff, Weiss, and possibly GRRM.

Honest question, but how was it racist? They came to Westeros because of Dany. Now that she's dead, why would they stay there? 

They weren't forcefully shipped off. They were offered land and turned it down.

[Lady S.]

46 minutes ago, Law Mom said:

BTW, this also explains why GW didn't execute Tyrion or Jon. He was not ordered to. He would never take in upon himself to do that--it would go against everything he knows. Kill soldiers after they surrender? Yes, on Queen D's orders. Murder slave babies? Yes, because orders. 

I thought it was pretty clear when he was yelling at Tyrion to shut up as Tyrion told him it wasn't his place to decide that this had gone beyond orders for him. And the way he looked at Jon last ep as Jon tried to restrain his own men was as if he was itching for a reason to kill him, even though Dany still wanted Jon to the end and what Jon did with his own men was really not Grey Worm's perview. He's not meant to be the same unthinking unfeeling soldier from before he knew Dany and Missandei. (I also thought it was interesting that he sentenced the Lannister prisoners to die, which suggests more autonomy than a mere executioner.)

[VCRTracking]

I pretty much agree with this:

[izabella]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That would have gotten them an enormous amount of crap too.  So one black/brown man is a drunk who slaps his wife and sleeps around, another becomes a religious fanatic who burns his only daughter for some unseasonable warmth, and the third is a usurper.  Oh, and the boozer is an absentee father to boot.

It would have been that way no matter which families were of color.  Greyjoys were rapists and pirates.  Lannisters were murderous incest twins and baby killers.  Boltons were flayers of skin and cruel torturers.  Freys were murderers and guest rite breakers. I guess they could have made the Tyrells or Arryns  black, or the Mormonts or Starks, but a case could be made that all of them had issues too, what with Jorah selling people into slavery and Mace Tyrell being an idiot...

Edited May 22, 2019 by izabella

[Lady S.]

[iMonrey]

Quote

Tyrion gave Bronn High Garden, the wealthiest part of the six kingdoms

Not anymore. The Lannister army sacked Highgarden and took all their gold and wealth. I suppose the Reach could still be technically, potentially wealthy in terms of agriculture but doesn't seem like Bronn got much besides a castle and a title.

[Drogo]

Dorne was full of non-white faces and they were doing better than most - what with their progressive tolerant society, successful wine industry and healthy sexual relationships... until (like every other family) House Martell and its associates started doing dumb shit. 

Not that any of it matters, IMO.

[Danny Franks]

54 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Peasant 1: "Wait... so, the new king can see the future? Like he can see all of time?"

Peasant 2: "That's what everyone says, yeah. I heard that he knew his brother would kill the mad Targaryen who burned the city."

Peasant 1: "Yeah but... That means he also knew she'd burn the city, and kill thousands. And he didn't warn anyone."

Peasant 2: "Gods, you're right! He's evil, we can't let him stay on the throne!"

Goldcloaks: "You are under arrest for the thought-crime of treason against the legally appointed and omniscient god king of Westeros."

Welcome to the future of Westeros.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Danny Franks

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

If Bran is truly a godlike creature, then the deaths of thousands don't disturb him. It's just the way it has to be. I mean people die every day, some in horrible ways, and God allows it to happen.

But then, seeing as how he didn't automatically know where Drogon was, I don't think he's all-seeing like that. That's where the show failed, at explaining Bran's powers. Of course D&D never really cared about Bran, so there's that.

[magdalene]

I have had several days to chew over the finale and am amending my mostly negative initial reaction to mostly positive with reservations.

1) A lot of my problems with the pacing, and the feeling of rushed-ness, and the character contortions to get to the end quick, quick, quick could have been solved by having the final two seasons be the usual 10 episodes.  Since Benioff and Weiss weren't willing to do it HBO should have hired somebody to do this.  HBO is a quality pay cable channel - they could have gotten someone competent.  Creative folks bend over backwards to work for HBO.   They would have probably also avoided little embarrassing snafus like water bottles left behind in shots, etc.

2)Danys Hitleresque heel turn was set up since the first season - but you had to be willing to overlook all of those audience pleasing "hero" season ending set pieces. Or don't see her mainly as a feminist icon. Conquerors can become a positive force for the countries they conquer.  Alexander the Great spread the best of his culture while conquering all those countries.  When William the Conqueror and his Normans took over England it wasn't pretty and the aftermath was brutal.  Yet William and the Norman Conquest are mostly seen as positive in English and European history.  When somebody is saying nowadays, "My ancestor came over with the Conqueror", they are proud of that ancestor.   William had the choice of destroying everything he had just conquered and won and he chose to build  instead and make crucial alliances instead of committing genocide. Of course I realize Dany was created and written to be a tragic villain. A fictional character doesn't have free will only what the creator gives them as fate.

3)Jon's ending is a happy ending of sorts. He never wanted to be king and he gets to be with people he is comfortable with, knowing his family the Starks are in a good place.

4)Bronn doesn't deserve his fate and I still hope he gets the clap in one of the brothels he is so fond of.  However, his lordly ascent is probably pretty realistic.  They won't admit so but more aristocratic houses may have started  with a Bronn instead some noble hero being rewarded with a title and riches.

5)A story that ends with the likes of Brienne and Davos alive and in positions of power has to be considered positive and a triumph of decency and goodness.

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, one of my favorite bits the whole episode was when Davos corrected Bronns grammar. Stannis would be very proud.

Edited May 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Sparger Springs]

7 hours ago, Bali said:

Because a Lannister always pays his debts. And Tyrion did promise High Garden to Bronn.

That does not explain why he is on the small council? 

[catrice2]

Or that on Youtube's "The cast remembers" there still is not a video with Jacob Anderson or Nathalie Emmanuel....

[Argenta]

On 5/21/2019 at 2:17 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

Also, why the hell was Bronn on the small council? So the last we see of Bronn before two minutes to go making jokes about brothels in the middle of a meeting about how to rebuild a city under a completely new style of government, he was literally threatening to kill Tyrion and Jaime. Qualifications aside, why the hell would Tyrion not take him out to end that threat forever? 

Just another character this program kept around for far too long. 

I get the impression that D&D think Bronn is some kind of fan favourite, whereas most people seem to find him aggravating.

16 hours ago, Butless said:

The people of Westros just watched their own Westrosi NORTHERN ARMY go on a killing/rape spree. Jon didn't pull a "brown" person off a woman who was about to be murdered/raped. He pulled one of his OWN men off.  Jon was directly responsible for all the murder and mayhem, because he enthusiastically backed and enabled Dany. In any other world, he'd be hanged for a war criminal.

 As I said, when the outcome of your story is to write that 'all the "brown" people get on a boat and fuck off to an island,' then your story is racist.

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Honest question, but how was it racist? They came to Westeros because of Dany. Now that she's dead, why would they stay there? 

They weren't forcefully shipped off. They were offered land and turned it down.

It wasn't racist. They came to Westeros to fight for Dany and there was no reason for them to stay once she was gone. Unlike many other characters, they freely chose their own fate in the end. 

[tennisgurl]

So now that I have had more time to think, watch the episode again, read about a thousand think pieces and interviews with cast and crew, I have decided that...yeah still not a big fan. I dont loath it in that it retroactively ruins the series the way some bad series finales go, and it has some parts that I like, and a lot of my problems with it are continuations of issues I have had with the season in general, but I think walked away from this finale disappointed. 

The Good:

The shot of Dany walking down to give her Triumph of the Will speech, with Drogon behind her making it look like she has dragon wings, really was a great shot. She has truly become the dragon. 

The acting was uniformally great, you can tell the cast are all still acting their hearts out, despite any issues I have with the story. Emilia especially has been amazing and fierce throughout, and has sold me on Dany going dark WAY more than the script has. 

Protective Stark sisters!

Gendry looks great in his Lord of Storms End outfit.

Poor Drogon, I ended the series feeling more sorry for him than anyone. Him trying to nudge his mommy awake just killed me, and I love that he killed the Iron Throne. Drogon gets it! That thing cost him his whole family, and he is now probably the last of his kind. 

Glad that Sansa ends up in a position of power, and looking like a queenly badass!

The return of Edmere (with jokes!) and Sweet Robin was unexpected and awesome. Damn, breast milk does a body good apparently. Maybe Sansa should have just held out 😉 

Brienne writing in the book about Jaimies good and impressive deeds. God how I wish that had ended better.

Snow and Jon are reunited, and Snow gets his pet! Snow and Drogon are such good boys. 

Some good call backs to the first season that I admit gave me some feels. 

The Bad:

We get two, count um, TWO long winded Tyrion speeches, and god knows Peter is trying to make it work, but I spent the whole time just checking my watch and wishing we were spending this time seeing Yara mourning her brother, Gendry and Arya getting some closure, Brienne doing anything, etc. And worse, both of them, especially the one about Dany, are so obviously the writers directly talking to us and justifying their writing choices. "See guys, Dany was bad the whole time! And you cheered, so your just as bad as she is! Oh we are so deep y'all". 

So if Jaimie and Cersei had just moved two steps away, they would have been fine? God this season had so many lame endings to so many iconic characters. Speaking of...

Danys death. After all this, with her being one of the protagonists of the whole series, and then being set up as the final boss, she is taken out by a quick stab while kissing Jon, and...thats it? What a lame way to end such a great character who has been such a huge focus of the show. It actually reminded me of the death of Stannis, who was another really interesting and dynamic character who was built up for many seasons, and then just kind of out of nowhere crosses the moral event horizon and dies a pointless death, and its like they never existed at all. What a waste of time. 

Yeah, lets end on a brothel joke. Keep it classy, show. 

In retrospect, so much of what was set up throughout the show turned out to be a big waste. Jon being the true heir and son of Rhagar and Lyanna? Just made things awkward between with his aunt/girlfriend, and we never even see his family or anything really react to this. The White Walkers and the ice king? After tons of build up, we stop them in one episode with a single stab from Arya. The prophesies? None of them really mattered. The Lord of Light and the other Gods and pantheons? Who? Dany and everything she has done and all of her people and her dragons? Dany might as well have been a giant flame thrower who helps with the ice zombies for all she ended up mattering, and then all her people just fuck off, and her one dragon flew off. Jaimie and his arc and wanting to fight for the living and bonding with Breinne? He might as well have died in the first season for how things ended for him, still nuts about Cersei and fuck everyone else.. So much that was set up as so important just turned out to be a big waste of time. The birth of dragons and magic was supposed to be this huge deal, but I guess not. 

I guess when Ned said that the wolf pack is stronger than the lone wolf, he didnt consider that one kid will be exiled, one will go off to explore, one will make the North independent, and the other will be a robot king, all separate from each other. They all did great things and I am sure that Ned would be proud, but it sucks that they are all so apart from each other after fighting so hard to find each other.

Fucking Bronn. I guess he just keeps killing the right people. I used to like him, but now I find his failing up to be annoying, and I hate that he has the Reach. Poor people there went from the classy Tyrels to his loutish self who will certainly abuse his power and be a general dick.

The WTF:

Bran gets to be king? Freaking Bran?!? Not only is that the most random person on the planet to become king, what are those qualifications, Tyrion? Because he...has a cool story? So does every other person on this show. Because he KNOWS stories? Then make him head librarian or some shit, it hardly means he can help rebuild a war torn country. And why does everyone else get behind it so fast, no one even has any follow ups about the creepy robot kid becoming their new leader? And, as he keeps saying, he isnt even Bran Stark anymore, he is the Three Eyed Raven, some kind of all knowing supernatural being, not really who I see being a good king of the whole realm. He has basically lost the ability to really care about or understand people, so how is he supposed to be an awesome leader? And if he knew all this was coming, I guess he knew that Dany was going to kill all those people, and does that make him just as much of a monster? Is he just a master manipulator who has used his powers of being all knowing to manipulate things into his favor? Seriously, what is even the fuck with this stupid ending?!?

Sansa getting Northern independence seems like a good idea, and I can see why its appealing right now, but in the long term? Will they just toss all the maesters and people associated with Westeros out? Will they have new currency, new power structures? They will certainly still work together, as "Bran" is the king and Sansa is Queen in the North, but it still seems like not the greatest idea in the long term. And what keeps the other kingdoms in Westeros then? Will the Iron Islands and Dorne Brexit out of here next, and then more follow? Then, well shit, I guess it will all be pre-Targ conquest all over again, with the continent being a bunch of petty lords and kings squabbling over minor territories all with their own separate countries and territories and having turf wars until some bigger power takes advantage of their weakness and just takes over everything again. Is that "Bran's" plan all along? 

"A Song of Ice and Fire" Really show? Game of Thrones ends the same way that Gilmore Girls did?

Edited May 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I have had several days to chew over the finale and am amending my mostly negative initial reaction to mostly positive with reservations.

1) A lot of my problems with the pacing, and the feeling of rushed-ness, and the character contortions to get to the end quick, quick, quick could have been solved by having the final two seasons be the usual 10 episodes.  Since Benioff and Weiss weren't willing to do it HBO should have hired somebody to do this.  HBO is a quality pay cable channel - they could have gotten someone competent.  Creative folks bend over backwards to work for HBO.   They would have probably also avoided little embarrassing snafus like water bottles left behind in shots, etc.

No, HBO couldn't have hired other writers. GRRM sold the rights to D&D and they pitched the show to HBO. D&D own the rights.

[MJ Frog]

45 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Drogon, I ended the series feeling more sorry for him than anyone.

I worry about him the way I worried about the one giant to survive Hardhome, who then later died. I worry Drogon is going to be lonely, that big scaly flame-throwing lug.

45 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And worse, both of them, especially the one about Dany, are so obviously the writers directly talking to us and justifying their writing choices.

Very true. But I kind of enjoyed that one about Dany, partly because Tyrion made the same points that a lot of posters had made the week before about some of Dany's past actions being questionable, but nobody caring because only people nobody liked were dying. But I also enjoyed it because it described the arc Dany and the show should have had, with an almost Shakespearean tragedy in Daenerys as the Westerosian Caesar, and an interesting meta commentary on how we sometimes just see what we want to see. There was enormous potential there. But instead of actually doing it, the writers just had Tyrion talk about it.

Edited May 23, 2019 by MJ Frog
A comma.

[BitterApple]

tennisgurl, you weren't the only one getting bored with Tyrion's speeches. I adore Peter Dinklage but felt like his scenes dragged on several minutes past what they should. His walk through KL was 14 minutes alone. 

[TigerLynx]

I've been watching mainly for Dany and Sansa.  I wish Dany had simply directly targeted Cersei and had Drogon fry her.  Then Dany leaves Westeros with Drogon, and Sansa becomes not just Queen of the North, but Queen of all the Kingdoms.

[tennisgurl]

27 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I adore Peter Dinklage but felt like his scenes dragged on several minutes past what they should. His walk through KL was 14 minutes alone. 

Oh word to that! It just kept going on and on! It reminded me of that long ass speech he had in The Mountain and the Viper about his cousin killing ants and I was like "yeah yeah we get it fates a bitch and death comes to everyone Valar Dohaeris the gods care not for us mere mortals we`ve been watching the show we know all this can we get to the main event please!?" We hardly even saw Oberyn in his big episode because Tyrion just kept going on, trying desperately to win that Emmy!

Again, love Peter and he is always great, but pretty soon they started to rely SO MUCH on him giving this long winded speeches about whatever popped into the writers heads that they lost their appeal. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Zuleikha]

Well if we're gonna play the maybe game, maybe some of them did what you said, in which case why on earth would we see that? It was not their story.

I'm not playing a maybe game. I was directly asked about it.

Also, I do think this story was partially their story. We spent a lot of time in Essos with the Unsullied and Dothraki, and it's not like it would take a long time to see a minor montage of various choices. 

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

No, HBO couldn't have hired other writers. GRRM sold the rights to D&D and they pitched the show to HBO. D&D own the rights.

Brian Cogman has written some episodes, has read and understands the original source material and is careful about the characterizations. He could have written more than just one episode for the final season, in my opinion.

[Minneapple]

11 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Brian Cogman has written some episodes, has read and understands the original source material and is careful about the characterizations. He could have written more than just one episode for the final season, in my opinion.

Yes, but that's up to D&D. Not HBO. 

45 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

tennisgurl, you weren't the only one getting bored with Tyrion's speeches. I adore Peter Dinklage but felt like his scenes dragged on several minutes past what they should. His walk through KL was 14 minutes alone. 

I agree, here is another spot where they could have cut. Just like we didn't need to see 20 minutes of Drogon destroying King's Landing, we didn't need to see Tyrion's endless walking around to find Jaime and Cersei. Like who the fuck cares? The building fell on them and they're dead. And Tyrion's speeches went on tooooo long. Like move on already, we know you want Dinklage to get that Emmy.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Minneapple

[magpye29]

“Good luck electing your next king, when the current one nevercroaks.”

Sorry I don’t know how to attribute quotes from my phone, but this one made me laugh. I see what you did there, Original Poster! (I now have Edgar Allan Poe running through my head.)

[magpye29]

 Game of Thrones ending:  Stark Raven Mad

[RealReality]

I just want to say that I'm not sure where I fall on the issue of race.  But I want to thank those posters who brought it up because I truly had never thought about it, and it's an interesting dynamic with so many facets and differing points of view. 

I wonder if they talked about lando calrizzian this much back in the day?!?!!

[CletusMusashi]

The more I think about it, the harder it is to believe that anybody is following Bran. He's some random northern kid sitting in a ruined castle in a ruined city. The army of that city has been destroyed. The people who were fighting on the side he was on are pretty much all gone. Yet, other kingdoms are respecting his authority and rebuilding everything for him. You'd think he'd be bombarded with secession announcements, not to mention direct challengers for whatever passes for a throne nowadays.

[CletusMusashi]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

It would have been that way no matter which families were of color.  Greyjoys were rapists and pirates.  Lannisters were murderous incest twins and baby killers.  Boltons were flayers of skin and cruel torturers.  Freys were murderers and guest rite breakers. I guess they could have made the Tyrells or Arryns  black, or the Mormonts or Starks, but a case could be made that all of them had issues too, what with Jorah selling people into slavery and Mace Tyrell being an idiot...

Not to mention, Mace Tyrell was the whitest character in Westeros.

[Cheezwiz]

8 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Of course D&D never really cared about Bran, so there's that.

Yep, and neither did the viewing audience. There was a whole season where he didn't appear and absolutely NO ONE missed him!

Fuck Bran.

[Cheezwiz]

6 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I worry about him the way I worried about the one giant to survive Hardhome, who then later died. I worry Drogon is going to be lonely, that big scaly flame-throwing lug.

Me too. He wound up tugging on my emotions far more than any other human characters on the show. His siblings and his mother all wound up dead. That's why I hope he flew to the magical ancestral Targaryen home of Valyria, to fly around with others like him. I don't want to imagine him all alone.

[Dame sans merci]

6 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I worry about him the way I worried about the one giant to survive Hardhome, who then later died. I worry Drogon is going to be lonely, that big scaly flame-throwing lug.

Very true. But I kind of enjoyed that one about Dany, partly because Tyrion made the same points that a lot of posters had made the week before about some of Dany's past actions being questionable, but nobody caring because only people nobody liked were dying. But I also enjoyed it because it described the arc Dany and the show should have had, with an almost Shakespearean tragedy in Daenerys as the Westerosian Caesar, and an interesting meta commentary on how we sometimes just see what we want to see. There was enormous potential there. But instead of actually doing it, the writers just had Tyrion talk about it.

I think the problem for me with that is that it's a complete re-framing of not just Dany's past deeds, but other peoples' too. We're primed on this show to understand that in this world justifiable vengeance is often achieved by acts of horrendous violence. And - as with Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs, as with Arya murdering the Freys - we are primed to enjoy these terrible people getting their terrible endings and align ourselves with what the protagonists have done. Are we now supposed to completely re-assess the whole moral landscape of the show?

[Butless]

11 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Fun fact: the only way Rickon's name came up after his death was when Jaime was pretending to not know Dickon's name. So, yes, his siblings did forget.

Jaime pretending to not know Dickon's name is the reason I loved Jaime.

[Butless]

2 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Not to mention, Mace Tyrell was the whitest character in Westeros.

To be fair, he looked like he could be anyone wearing a rubber white mask.

[Butless]

16 hours ago, taanja said:

That's like my psychic connection with my cat. Doesn't mean my cat thinks with human logic.

Just like cats and dogs -- they "feel" connection with their owners but they certainly can not be assigned the thought process of human logic. Sorry. 

They certainly can feel the process of some human logic. Dogs, anyway.

Eg,  They can feel jealousy. If you spend all your time on your cell and ignoring your dog while your dog makes sad eyes at you or puts it's paw over the phone to stop you from typing, and your dog steals your phone from you or hides it, it just used human logic to keep you away from the thing that is occupying your time and making it jealous.

[Butless]

18 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

For years, Dany used people of color to fight her enemies, and increase her personal wealth and power. Was the story racist then, or only now that she died and Davos offered to make Grey Worm Lord of the Reach with the Unsullied as his bannermen? 

I answered this already, so I dont know why it was removed:

Yes; having a white person live out a  white conqueror scenario is racist. If I didnt make it absolutely clear before, I am making it so , now.  The problems with race didn't start in the finale of the series.

[Affogato]

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not sure how happy Jon will be wandering North of the Wall.

I'm not saying he'll be miserable, or that he's not glad to be free of ruling Westeros, but he's always had goals.  Sometimes simple: join the Watch, become a ranger, find out who his mother is); sometimes more complicated: take back Winterfell from Ramsay, defeat the Night King, put Dany on the Iron Throne.

Now he's got nothing other than to wake up every day.

I’m pretty sure he restarts the night watch, trains recruits, repairs castle black to start, and so on. As the new regime developes he’ll be sent bandits and others who havebeen taking advantage of people during the wars.  i don’t think it is his nature to walk away, even if no one would blame him. 

I think it is possible the Wildings will have an unexpected role in this. Some may join him and perhaps the nights watch will become something freer as well. It may evolve. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Affogato

[Uncle JUICE]

15 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Fun fact: the only way Rickon's name came up after his death was when Jaime was pretending to not know Dickon's name. So, yes, his siblings did forget.

Don't forget, Jon killed a BOY....YOUNGER THAN BRAN! Except it looked like Olly might have been younger than Rickon, too. Poor Rickon. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, Butless said:

Dorne was full of white people. Spanish people are not white people, now? 

Well, Spanish people can be white people, sure. 

I’m pretty sure Dorne was based on Arabic countries and many of the Dornish character’s actors, such as Alexander Siddig, come from that background. Your call as to color, I guess. 

[Drogo]

Just now, Affogato said:

2 hours ago, Butless said:

Dorne was full of white people. Spanish people are not white people, now? 

Well, Spanish people can be white people, sure. 

I’m pretty sure Dorne was based on Arabic countries and many of the Dornish character’s actors, such as Alexander Siddig, come from that background. Your call as to color, I guess.

MMV but I'd say in a world where there is no Spain (or Arab States) there are no Spanish people or Arabic people- rather there are only people of varying colors.   

[Affogato]

On 5/22/2019 at 7:09 AM, CletusMusashi said:

I want to know who repaired that castle. Obviously smart, skilled people from all over the place are coming in to help. Which makes it particular sad that they still can't fill the small council. Since apparently the primary requirement for that job is to be friends with one of the Starks, or at least friends with one of their friends. Sansa has way too much political power. It's like if the Republic of Texas was allowed to choose the leaders of Mexico.

And  Tyrion puts Bronn in charge of the treasury? Really? There's not a single normal, competent bean-counter anywhere in the six kingdoms? What, did they give them all to Sansa to figure out how to pay for her wardrobe?

Well Tyrion promised Bronn. If he is on the council Tyrion. An keep an eye on him AND Bronn will be more likely to be generous with food and money if he has a say in the process. 

Assume Bronn can be trusted as much as Tyrion and Littlefnger, not a high bar, he’ll be fine. 

[Affogato]

19 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

And there's also the fact that as mythical creatures they can't really be compared to cats and dogs. We don't know what they think or how much they perceive. For all we know they were doing crossword puzzles in their spare time. I mean, probably not, but, you know.

With those claws?

I tend to think a lot of animals think logically and maybe qualify as sentient but that we also react to them as if they are human and they aren’t that. 

Ask Jon or Dany what the telepathic link meant. I don’t think it was well thought out in the ahow. 

[Bali]

It's a day later, and I'm still giggling over the thought of Drogon sitting with glasses on his nose, trying to hold a pen to do the crossword. Then he gets frustrated because he can't figure out the clue. He huffs- and up in smoke goes the puzzle.

I do fall on the side that animals think, feel and certainly grieve. I just watched my dog go through the grief process and it was heartbreaking. But I also still think the show has been very poorly thought out with how sentient the dragons and direwolves are.

In my head- Arya goes off to see what is West of Westeros (Americos?) There, she finds that Drogon who was quite sentient has flown off to see what the noises in his head were. Turns out that there were many other dragons, elves, and wonderful beasts that were simply calling him home.

[GodsBeloved]

8 hours ago, Dame sans merci said:

I think the problem for me with that is that it's a complete re-framing of not just Dany's past deeds, but other peoples' too. We're primed on this show to understand that in this world justifiable vengeance is often achieved by acts of horrendous violence. And - as with Sansa feeding Ramsay to his dogs, as with Arya murdering the Freys - we are primed to enjoy these terrible people getting their terrible endings and align ourselves with what the protagonists have done. Are we now supposed to completely re-assess the whole moral landscape of the show?

For me, one difference between Sansa/Arya and Dany is the Stark girls knew Ramsey and the Freys were guilty of atrocities against them/their family.

With Dany, the point has been made, even on the show, that for those children who were crucified, Dany didn't get those she knew were guilty. Some or all of them may have ordered it but it was never established exactly who did. If I'm not mistaken, she crucified the en-slavers as punishment for what was done to the children, not for simply being en-slavers.

Then there is the guy she fed to the dragons. Again, if I'm not mistaken she herself said she didn't know if the guy was guilty yet she executed him anyway.

Dany targeting civilians (instead of just going straight for the Red Keep) can't be explained away and I can see how she'd do something like this given I have seen her execute people who might be guilty. For me, it was a slippery slope.

Going back to Ramsey, for me, he dug his own ditch. He purposely starved his hounds so that he could feed Jon and whoever else to them.

If you set a trap for others, you will get caught in it yourself. If you roll a boulder down on others, it will crush you instead. Proverbs 26.27

Now, had Sansa starved the hounds after Winterfell was taken back then locked them up with Ramsey, I would have had a problem with that.

Edited May 23, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Stallion12]

8 hours ago, RealReality said:

I just want to say that I'm not sure where I fall on the issue of race.  But I want to thank those posters who brought it up because I truly had never thought about it, and it's an interesting dynamic with so many facets and differing points of view. 

I wonder if they talked about lando calrizzian this much back in the day?!?!!

No, He was well written and got a redemption arc. Had they kept him a Gillian it would have gone badly. 

[TigerLynx]

7 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

The more I think about it, the harder it is to believe that anybody is following Bran. He's some random northern kid sitting in a ruined castle in a ruined city. The army of that city has been destroyed. The people who were fighting on the side he was on are pretty much all gone. Yet, other kingdoms are respecting his authority and rebuilding everything for him. You'd think he'd be bombarded with secession announcements, not to mention direct challengers for whatever passes for a throne nowadays.

I think it would have made more sense for the kingdoms to split apart again.  Since Sansa is Queen of the North, I expect the leaders and people in the other kingdoms might demand autonomy to.

[RoberTee]

33 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

For me, one difference between Sansa/Arya and Dany is with the Stark girls knew Ramsey and the Freys were guilty of atrocities against them/their family.

With Dany, the point has been made, even on the show, that for those children who were crucified, Dany didn't get those she knew were guilty. Some or all of them may have ordered it but it was never established exactly who did. If I'm not mistaken, she crucified the en-slavers as punishment for what was done to the children, not for simply being en-slavers.

Then there is the guy she fed to the dragons. Again, if I'm not mistaken she herself said she didn't know if the guy was guilty yet she executed him anyway.

Going back to Ramsey, for me, he dug his own ditch. He purposely starved his hounds so that he could feed Jon and whoever else to them.

Dany targeting civilians (instead of just going straight for the Red Keep) can't be explained away and I can see how she'd do something like this given I have seen her execute people who might be guilty. For me, it was a slippery slope.

If you set a trap for others, you will get caught in it yourself. If you roll a boulder down on others, it will crush you instead. Proverbs 26.27

Now, had Sansa starved the hounds after Winterfell was taken back then locked them up with Ramsey, I would have had a problem with that.

To be fair, Sansa technically didn't even kill Ramsay. She just set his own dogs free. It's not her fault Ramsay hadn't fed them for days... 

Yes, of course she knew what would happened and that was her plan, but if you think about it, what is she guilty of? Reuniting Ramsay with his precious dogs? 

Edited May 23, 2019 by RoberTee

[CletusMusashi]

So if Sansa is Queen of the North, what is Jon going to end up being called? King of the Actual North?

[RoberTee]

2 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

So if Sansa is Queen of the North, what is Jon going to end up being called? King of the Actual North?

King Beyond the Wall? 

Edited May 23, 2019 by RoberTee